Misplaced Pages

Talk:Akira Toriyama: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 14:24, 27 December 2014 editHijiri88 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users37,390 edits Is he really that well-known for Dr. Slump???← Previous edit Revision as of 14:38, 27 December 2014 edit undoTheFarix (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers134,691 edits Is he really that well-known for Dr. Slump???Next edit →
Line 175: Line 175:
:::In critical circles, he is still know for that work. Even in news articles on his other works, such as ] from ] a few months ago, he is directly associated with both ''Dragon Ball'' and ''Dr. Slump''. This verifies that his is well known for both. Besides, your edit has been disputed by multiple editors, so you shouldn't be remaking it per ]. —''']''' (] | ]) 00:48, 25 December 2014 (UTC) :::In critical circles, he is still know for that work. Even in news articles on his other works, such as ] from ] a few months ago, he is directly associated with both ''Dragon Ball'' and ''Dr. Slump''. This verifies that his is well known for both. Besides, your edit has been disputed by multiple editors, so you shouldn't be remaking it per ]. —''']''' (] | ]) 00:48, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
::::@]: Citing one article from an (]) online fan publication is pretty meaningless when it comes to making claims about what people in the real world (as opposed to Misplaced Pages) knows him for. Of the first 20 results for a search of his name on '']'''s website, are either specifically about ''Dragon Ball'' and name him as the creator, or on largely unrelated topics and name him as "Toriyama Akira, author of the (hit) manga ''Dragon Ball''", and it seems none of them mention ''Dr. Slump'' even once. I could repeat this experiment for the other big newspapers. ] (]) 07:14, 25 December 2014 (UTC) ::::@]: Citing one article from an (]) online fan publication is pretty meaningless when it comes to making claims about what people in the real world (as opposed to Misplaced Pages) knows him for. Of the first 20 results for a search of his name on '']'''s website, are either specifically about ''Dragon Ball'' and name him as the creator, or on largely unrelated topics and name him as "Toriyama Akira, author of the (hit) manga ''Dragon Ball''", and it seems none of them mention ''Dr. Slump'' even once. I could repeat this experiment for the other big newspapers. ] (]) 07:14, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::Anime News Network is not a "meaningless fan publication". It is one of the most prestigious and respected anime news sites out there. Just because it is an English language website does not invalidate it as demonstrating that he is know for his work on ''Dr. Slump''. As for more evidence that his is know for his work on ''Dr. Slump'':
:::::*http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/press-release/2014-12-17/viz-media-launches-akira-toriyama-jaco-the-galactic-patrolman-manga-series/.82316
:::::*http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2014/11/22/video-suzuki-car-commercial-with-akira-toriyamas-drslump-updated-for-the-holidays
:::::*http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2014/09/11/video-latest-suzuki-car-cm-features-akira-toriyamas-drslump
:::::*http://www.laweekly.com/publicspectacle/2014/11/17/manga-series-dragon-ball-celebrates-30th-anniversary
:::::*http://www.lagaceta.com.ar/blogs/kaboom/619332/antes-dragon-ball-inicios-akira-toriyama.html
:::::*http://en.rocketnews24.com/2014/09/02/artist-creates-awesome-anime-artwork-by-carefully-cutting-a-single-post-it-note-%E3%80%90photos%E3%80%91/
:::::*http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2014/11/comics-a-m-charges-filed-against-hi-score-girl-creator-others/
:::::*http://blog.games.com/2014/08/05/just-when-did-games-anime-games-come-to-america/
:::::Your attempt to use raw Google hits as proof that he isn't know for this work just ]. —''']''' (] | ]) 14:38, 27 December 2014 (UTC)


No. Toriyama has not been best known for ''Dr. Slump'' for at least 30 years. This is not "American Misplaced Pages" -- the fact that virtually no one in the US has heard of Toriyama PERIOD means "what Americans have heard of" should be taken with a pinch of salt either way. "鳥山といえば『ドラゴンボール』" is a phrase I have actually heard people say; "鳥山といえば『ドクタースランプ』" is something '''''NO ONE''''' has '''''EVER''''' said ]. '']'' and '']'' are both '''MUCH''' better-known (in Japan, the US, Ireland..........) and more widely-associated with Toriyama than ''Dr. Slump'', and no one is arguing for adding those. ''Dragon Ball'' is the only thing that we can reasonably say he is "best-known for"; adding ''anything'' else to this statement would violate ]. ] (<small>]]</small>) 23:39, 24 December 2014 (UTC) No. Toriyama has not been best known for ''Dr. Slump'' for at least 30 years. This is not "American Misplaced Pages" -- the fact that virtually no one in the US has heard of Toriyama PERIOD means "what Americans have heard of" should be taken with a pinch of salt either way. "鳥山といえば『ドラゴンボール』" is a phrase I have actually heard people say; "鳥山といえば『ドクタースランプ』" is something '''''NO ONE''''' has '''''EVER''''' said ]. '']'' and '']'' are both '''MUCH''' better-known (in Japan, the US, Ireland..........) and more widely-associated with Toriyama than ''Dr. Slump'', and no one is arguing for adding those. ''Dragon Ball'' is the only thing that we can reasonably say he is "best-known for"; adding ''anything'' else to this statement would violate ]. ] (<small>]]</small>) 23:39, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:38, 27 December 2014

Skip to table of contents
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Akira Toriyama article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find video game sources: "Akira Toriyama" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images · free news sources · TWL · NYT · WP reference · VG/RS · VG/RL · WPVG/Talk
Archives: 1, 2
Good articleAkira Toriyama has been listed as one of the Art and architecture good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
May 25, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
June 24, 2013Good article nomineeListed
Current status: Good article
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconBiography: Arts and Entertainment
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the arts and entertainment work group (assessed as High-importance).
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconAnime and manga: Dragon Ball / Biography High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Anime and manga, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of anime, manga, and related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Anime and mangaWikipedia:WikiProject Anime and mangaTemplate:WikiProject Anime and mangaanime and manga
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Dragon Ball work group.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Biography work group.
WikiProject iconSquare Enix Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Square Enix, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Square Enix-related merchandise and video games on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Square EnixWikipedia:WikiProject Square EnixTemplate:WikiProject Square EnixSquare Enix
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconVideo games Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Video games, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of video games on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Video gamesWikipedia:WikiProject Video gamesTemplate:WikiProject Video gamesvideo game
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
Summary of Video games WikiProject open tasks:
Summary of Video games WikiProject open tasks
AfDs Merge discussions Other discussions No major discussions Featured content candidates Good article nominations DYK nominations Reviews and reassessments
Articles that need...
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconAnimation: People Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Animation, a collaborative effort to build an encyclopedic guide to animation on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, help out with the open tasks, or contribute to the discussion.AnimationWikipedia:WikiProject AnimationTemplate:WikiProject AnimationAnimation
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Animation people work group (assessed as High-importance).
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconJapan: Biography Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Japan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Japan-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project, participate in relevant discussions, and see lists of open tasks. Current time in Japan: 08:52, January 13, 2025 (JST, Reiwa 7) (Refresh)JapanWikipedia:WikiProject JapanTemplate:WikiProject JapanJapan-related
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Biography task force.
WikiProject Japan to do list:
  • Featured content candidates – 

Articles: None
Pictures: None
Lists: None

Please read and understand Misplaced Pages:Attribution, and secondarily Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:Citing sources, and Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources before making additions to this article, or making suggested additions on this article's talk page. Additions made without references which meet this criteria may be deleted as vandalism. Blogs, emails, fansites and statements made on the radio do not meet this criteria.
See talk page guidelines.

Akira Toriyama

Anyone know what this man is up to nowadays? The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.151.226.144 (talk • contribs) .

Maybe someone can include a picture of him as well. The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.243.7.145 (talk • contribs) .

He is doing nothing really with Bird Studio, just spending time with his family Son Goku22

Akira Toriyama is a very private person, he never talks about what he is up to, so we can never know if he is working or not. I added twice the one-shot Cashman and the 1998 Cashman (1 issue only manga) but somebody removes them. greekalien

I was attempting to remove the comment someone added to biography about the focus on sayains, not sure if i succeeded or not, i think i might have reverted it successfully, but i hope i didn't break anything else. not an expert on the more advanced features yet. i was backtracking from a comparison view, to just manually edit it out, but when i refreshed it was gone ... so ... mission accomplished i suspect --71.77.37.238 03:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Akira Toriyama is a Jehovah's Witness? That doesnt sound right considering the material he creates. —The preceding comment is by 63.144.29.9 (talkcontribs) 63.144.29.9: Please sign your posts!

What the hell?!? He's dead?

Does anyone have a link to confirm that he died today? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.52.68.44 (talkcontribs) 68.52.68.44 (UTC)

That statement was never true. I remember reading about this case years ago. Yeah, they even talked about it on DaizenshuuEX. See the link. ~I'm anonymous

Income from Dr. Slump

I remember in the last few pages of the manga Dr. Slump (Taiwan edition) There's a brief talk about the amount of income tax he had paid during the prime time of Dr. Slump in early/mid 80's. Don't quite remember the number but i think it was $500,000,000 Yens (or 1/10th of this amount). Can someone verify this and create a trivia section that include this info? Z3u2 10:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't know. Sorry. ~I'm anonymous

WikiProject Biography Notes:

I looked over this as part of WP: Bio's Assessment Drive, and one of the things I noticed it was lacking was an infobox. If anyone would care to add one, the appropriate page is Template: Infobox Person. Thanks! Belril 06:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

In spite of Dragon Ball's sales

"...became a record-breaking best seller with over 120 million copies sold." Can someone reference this? I'm certain I've seen this somewhere on the internet; looking back on it, I can't seem to find it again. ~I'm anonymous

It has been taken care of. ~I'm anonymous

Blue Dragon Quote

I remember reading that that quote was misreferenced and was in fact stated not by Toriyama but by Blue Dragon's director, who is not Toriyama. —The preceding comment is by 72.70.50.238 (talkcontribs) 72.70.50.238: Please sign your posts!

All sources say it was Tori. Unless, can you provide the link(s) where it said that? ~I'm anonymous

His family

anyone know about his family? I heard he has 2 brothers and 1 sister, one of his brother is a mixed canadian-japanese? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.95.11.151 (talkcontribs).

Where'd you hear that? Sounds like a rumour. ~I'm anonymous
He has talked about his family in the tankōbon releases of Dr. Slump. He only stated that he has a younger sister. --Yottamol (talk) 19:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

GA failed

I don't think the coverage is deep enough. The biography section is under 3000 characters. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Propcycle charater design

Akira Toriyama is said to have done the character design for the flying cycling arcade game Propcycle. Anyone here have more info about this - or even want to create the Propcycle article? 124.169.175.22 (talk) 01:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

You think the hatnote is screwy?

It reads: This article is about the manga artist. For the ophthalmologist and photographer, see Akira Toriyama (ophthalmologist).

If you don't like it, blame me. I don't know anything about this Toriyama and inferred from the start of the article that "manga artist" would be a suitable description; if you disagree, please edit accordingly. As for the second half, I'd agree that it looks screwy, but Toriyama is noted for his photography, which has no relation whatever to ophthalmology: it's very likely that people familiar with his photography would have no idea that he was an ophthalmologist.

I know next to nothing about his work as an ophthalmologist and was tempted to call him "Akira Toriyama (photographer)", but then again (i) I know little about ophthalmologists in general and (ii) he was highly decorated by the nation, perhaps as an ophthalmologist, perhaps as a bigwig in medical education, but certainly not as a photographer. (In order to get such a level of official recognition as a photographer, I think you have to put out collections of reverent depictions of Buddhist statuary or similar.) -- Hoary (talk) 05:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Reverting

Was there a point for Sesshomaru to delete major part of the article? I'm reverting it. If someone disagrees, please discuss it here before reverting so it doesn't end up in an edit war. Quispiam (talk) 11:58, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Your edits are violating WP:BLP. And that copyrighted image has no fair use rationale for this article, much less is it illustrating something useful. Until you add appropriate material, the edits will have to be reverted. You will be hearing from WP:BLP/N if you do this again. Lord Sesshomaru (talkedits) 00:03, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree about the picture. I don't see what's wrong with the text though. Could you explain closer? And hey, there's no need for threats :) Quispiam (talk) 09:22, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
This isn't like a physical threat or something. It's a warning by Misplaced Pages standards. You can't add whatever you "know" is true to articles. Maybe our policies WP:VERIFY and WP:ORIGINAL will enlighten you. Lord Sesshomaru (talkedits) 23:37, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Wait a minute wait wait, wait, what? I didn't even write anything new in, except for the line "and for that he has also been referenced to in the series", about Jackie Chan, which also had a source. I just changed the order of things in the article to have them make more sense. I think you should look through this more carefully. Quispiam (talk) 09:20, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
All you did was produce bunk, the copy-editing itself, well, sucked. What "source" are you talking about? Lord Sesshomaru (talkedits) 23:53, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

External link ...

is out of order: Interview Akira Toriyama. Does anybody know an alternative? I used this a reference in the German Dragonball article as well. It was a very informative interview. Was nice, if someone could help. Thanks --Sat Ra (talk) 17:18, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Akira Toriyama the Character

Do we want 2 add any info on how he makes an android version of himself as a character that makes sporadic appearances in Dragon Ball?Gold1618 (talk) 04:34, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Aside from the "Tori-Bot", he appears as himself and in bird form as well. He did the same in Dr. Slump, but how is this all relevant? Lord Sesshomaru (talkedits) 22:45, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Mr. Ho

I doubt it would pass notability, but even if it could, its hard to say much on a one-shot manga, especially one that would likely just barely pass.Jinnai 05:21, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Disagree, It is an entirely separate work from anything and wouldn't fit merging it with anything. - SuperTiencha (talk) 16:05, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Rather than straight merge to the author, why don't we have an article for the Akira Toriyama's Manga Theater book series which all of his minor one-shots are in just like what was done with Rumiko Takahashi's Rumic Theater. The information on all the small one-shots like Wonder Island, The Adventures of Tongpoo, Dragon Boy, ect. could each have a small section on the article. - SuperTiencha (talk) 23:12, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

It's better than a lot of seperate articles. It might still have notability issues, but being a list would give it more security from AfD then a bunch of stub articles.Jinnai 02:56, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Ready for GA nomination?

It looks great! I'll do it if you'd like, but otherwise someone should, it looks great! Judgesurreal777 (talk) 12:02, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I have no experience in doing that, so if you feel it is that good, please do so. Xfansd (talk) 16:12, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
If you like, you can nominate and get the credit, and I'll support you during the review, since I have years of experience. Just add the code to the top of this page and let's do it! This article is a high priority and we need it to be GA class. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 16:54, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Thank you, that's very nice of you. Xfansd (talk) 17:24, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Akira Toriyama/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sjones23 (talk · contribs) 02:10, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I will be reviewing this article momentarily, so bear with me while I go through the article. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:10, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

All right. Here's what I think of the sources:

  1. We should maintain a consistent dating format in each of the sources.
  2. All dead citations must be replaced.
  3. If there is the original date that it was first published, add it.

I will be expanding on this as I go along. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:03, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Excellent points! I checked the article, and it seems to have working reference links, original publication dates where available, and the dates are all in a year-month-day format. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 00:33, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Undergoing a thorough review of the GA criteria. This is how the article, as of May 12, 2013 stacks up to the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?:
  1. Please file a copyedit at WP:GOCE.
2. Factually accurate?: Here is a couple of hints here:
  1. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed per the WP:BLP policy.
  2. Also, all publisher/work names should at least be included in the citations.
  3. Please go through and make sure citations are all formatted with information filling out fields from citation templates using WP:CIT.
  4. Please make sure no cites are just a bare link and a title.
  5. Please go through and make sure cites verify WP:V, and of course please review all cites for WP:RS standards.
  6. Please go though WP:ANIME/RS and see if there are any unreliable sources that need to be remvoed.
3. Broad in coverage?:
  1. Biography section - well sourced
4. Neutral point of view?: No NPOV issues at the present, but there may need to be some wording that should be removed per WP:WTA.
5. Article stability? Stability issues: No stability issues here so far.
6. Images?: One image used, but that would work here.
  1. File:Akira Toriyama.jpg - no issues here.

Please address these matters here as well. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:00, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I went and filed a copy edit request. I do not believe there is any unsourced BLP content likely to cause contention. Went through and added authors to the missing sources that supply them, all sources give their publisher/work and are now in citation templates. There were two fan sites used as sources that reproduced interviews with the subject, I went and changed them to the original source of the interview. I believe all the sources pass WP:V and WP:RS standards now, and none are listed at WP:ANIME/RS as unreliable. So it seems we are only waiting on a copy edit now. Xfansd (talk) 15:59, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
I'll copy-edit this. AmericanLemming (talk) 14:29, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

After the copy-edit

I've now close-read the article three times (once yesterday and twice today), so I think that the prose is about as good as I can make it. Two general remarks:

1. The article is quite informative and well-organized. Good job!
2. There is a fine line between following the conventions of standard formal written English and imposing one's stylistic preference on the prose of the article. Feel free to change the wording, especially if the my changes don't reflect what you're trying to say.

Then, four specific remarks regarding sentences that I found confusing and didn't know how to fix:

1. At the end of the "Success" section, you say "Toriyama's clean line and design sense..." I understand what design sense is, but what is a "clean line"?
2. At the end of the "Recent work" section, you say that exhibit moves (and will move) around. Where was it between April 15 and April 17? Were they taking it down and setting it up? And where was it from April 23 to July 27? That is, where is it now? Back in Nihonbashi?
3. Near the end of the "Style, influence and accolades" section, you have James S. Yadao mention an art shift. Essentially, was the art shift that "Dragon Ball" became more like the popular shōnen manga of the late 1980s and early 1990s, like City Hunter and Fist of the North Star?
4. At the end of the "Style, influence and accolades" section, you mention "his work" as the reason that Toriyama took second in the mangaka poll. Presumably you're refering to Toriyama's work, not Tezuka's?

That's all I've got for you to look at; the rest of the prose looks good to me. AmericanLemming (talk) 15:42, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

1. This "clean line" thing was there before I did a major overhaul, so I don't know what the user who added that meant. I guess we could remove the reasoning and just say he did the work for the games.
2. That exhibit info is all taken straight from the source used, during the first gap I'd assume it was moving/being taken down that type of stuff. Currently I'd say its probably just being stored somewhere until July 27, perhaps the location is booked with a different exhibit causing the large gap. But personally I don't feel the reader needs to know that, they're probably only interested in when it was on display.
3. The art shift is from "round and innocent" to "sharp angles with energy and intensity". The comparison to City Hunter etc. was made by Jason Thompson in a separate review. I do not think we can intermingle the two and imply that, by Yadao's description, Toriyama's art went from unique to that of every common shōnen manga.
4. Yes, "his work" refers to Toriyama's. Additionally, just want to point out that I believe the "highly influential and popular worldwide" part to be supported in the Japanese source with similar lines. Xfansd (talk) 17:04, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Alright, I've taken out "clean line" and left the second two sentences alone, as you recommended. For the last one, you can decide whether or not to put "highly" back into the lead. I'm pretty new to this whole editing business, so I don't necessarily have the best feel for how things should be said. If you were to put it back in, I guess I would feel more comfortable if the phrase was in quotations marks. But you probably have a better idea of what you're doing than I do, so you can do as you like.

And with that, my copy-edit is finished. AmericanLemming (talk) 18:47, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

The copyedit looks marvelous to me! I will take a look at it in a few days or so. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:38, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Final thoughts

All right. Taking a look at the article, I think it should definitely pass as a Good Article per the GA criteria. Nice work, everyone! Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:59, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Minor works

Hi, people. I propose to redirect Mysterious Rain Jack, Wonder Island, Today's Highlight Island, Pola & Roid, Escape (manga), Dragon Boy, The Adventures of Tongpoo, Dub & Peter 1, and Kintoki (manga) to this page (or Akira Toriyama's Manga Theater) on the basis that all they lack WP:N. As this article is broad enough on its coverage of his works there will be no loss at all. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 21:56, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I say just go ahead and boldly merge them, as they all lack notability for minor works, lack referencing and just downright lack the proper structure of an article. —KirtZ 22:18, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Agreed - merge. ProKro (talk) 23:10, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Agree with these titles. If they do show independent notability later such as an English/multi-language release then they can be re-created. -AngusWOOF (talk) 04:00, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
I agree, one the basis that a suitable effort has been made to see if there are any unused sources that establish notability of the works in question first.--69.157.253.160 (talk) 04:55, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I think usually we need to wait more but as it seems an unanimous decision I've already redirected all them. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 00:59, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Is he really that well-known for Dr. Slump???

59,000 < 1.68 million Hijiri 88 (やや) 11:27, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Why not include it? Dr. Slump has a considerable following and should be mentioned. It is also the first prominent work by the author with a considerable following both domestically and internationally. There's also a reasonably encyclopedic, well-sourced, wiki article on the work, which alone proves its notability. Aside from that, it fits in the lede and without it there would be too much emphasis on Dragon Ball and that is just not encyclopedic. If you feel Dr. Slump needn't be mentioned, feel free to propose some other author's works to take its place. ProKro (talk) 16:12, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

bearly anybody in the usa has even heard of dr. slump, prolly not even otaku but constant reverts to a redirect of Dragon Ball Z: Fukkatsu whatever is bordering vandalism. stop reverting me vandal! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.56.26.133 (talk) 16:19, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

To the IP, please be civil. Also, ProKro, you do not have to be so haughty; admit you were in the wrong. I can even taste your cynical attitude here. Clearly, it's people like you who give wikipedia a bad name. I do agree that Dr. Slump warrants no mention in the lead paragraph, as it was never critically acclaimed in the US as much as Dragon Ball. RoaringFlamer41 — Preceding undated comment added 16:26, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
I was hasty. I admit. The reverts were unnecessary and were made more out of frustration than anything else really, but I wasn't wrong. I made sure the redirect was included and as far as grammar is considered, blame my gnomish nature. I don't know what people are you referring to but don't link them with me, please, as I do not mean to cause havoc even when I accidentally make sloppy slip-ups. Water under the bridge. As for Dr. Slump, I don't see why not include it, regardless of its popularity. Its an article about the author and one of his first prominent breakout works must surely hold some value. If I recall correctly, it was even animated before Dragon Ball. ProKro (talk) 16:40, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
I think the problem is exagerated by the edit message "Undid revision X by Y", which gives the appearance of an edit war that isn't really there. Consider the wording "partial revert", or something more obvious like "missing comma". As to the topic at hand, I agree with keeping mention of Dr. Slump. —WOFall (talk) 17:13, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Noted. Cheers. ProKro (talk) 17:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

gentlemen and gentlemen, ProKo has been reverted since no one here agrees with him or her. thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.56.26.133 (talk) 16:47, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Slump absolutely has to be mentioned. Look at it this way, if he only ever did Dr. Slump and never created Dragon Ball, 35 million copies is very successful for any manga artist. Xfansd (talk) 16:52, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
@User:Xfansd: If there isn't an essay at WP:IFONLY criticizing the use of ridiculous hypotheticals in talk page discussions, there should be (and yes, I'm aware of the irony in this comment ;-) ). "If Dragon Ball never existed, he would probably still be famous for Dr. Slump" is a non-argument: the proportion of that 35 million that, like my purchases, were made by people who had only heard of him because of his later creation and whose interest was piqued by the crossover is probably unquantifiable, but can you find sales figures for Dr. Slump c.1983 to compare? 182.249.8.67 (talk) 00:30, 25 December 2014 (UTC) (Hijiri88's phone)
@172.56.26.133 Wow. You really gave it some time for discussion. And "ok its 3 against 1 so WP:CONSENSUS has been sought. Read the talk page you ! Ask every person in American and all they will tell you is, "Dr. Who"? haaaa.." is a bit childish if I may add. EDIT: The "...was never critically acclaimed in the US as much as Dragon Ball." argument is void. That would mean the article is leaning towards "US-centrism" and we don't want that. That'd strip the article of GA, another thing we wouldn't want :O ProKro (talk) 16:53, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
@User:ProKro: Please refrain from ad hominem remarks against the IP that essentially amount to strawman arguments against me. This is not about Eurocentrism or Americocentrism. I am arguing from Japanese statistics. You need a reliable source (and yes, I would not only accept, but would prefer one in Japanese) that actually makes a claim like "Toriyama Akira is about as well-known for Dr. Slump as for Dragon Ball". 182.249.8.67 (talk) 00:38, 25 December 2014 (UTC) (Hijiri88's phone)
I haven't made any arguments against your proposal, directly or indirectly, nor did I personally attack the IP user once (who has since been banned). I simply stated that there is no need to remove Dr. Slump statement to begin with, and suggested replacing it with maybe one of more prominent of author's works. The US-centrism issue was directed at RoaringFlamer41 who argued that Dr. Slump needn't be mentioned solely because it's rather unknown in the U.S. Anyone would be hard pressed to find any reliable and verifiable source, online at least, about actual popularity of any of author's works other than Dragon Ball, therefore I assumed that that the figure of 35 million copies sold is more then enough to justify its notability. ProKro (talk) 01:08, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
I already made my proposal in my initial edit: "He is best-known for Dragon Ball." Leave the mention of Dragon Quest in the following sentence, but maybe change it to "He is also known for his character designs for video games such as the Dragon Quest series and Chrono Trigger." Putting Dr. Slump or any of these other works on the same level as Dragon Ball (in the lede of this article, in terms of what this person is known for, worldwide) is a clear violation of WP:WEIGHT. And as I already pointed out, your "35 million copies" stat is biased/irrelevant, since probably 90+% of that number is post-Dragon Ball and is evidence against putting them on the same level. What about my earlier stat that in Toriyama's native language about 30 times as many websites mention the subject in relation to Dragon Ball than Dr. Slump? If you're skeptical about my blank Google search, repeat it for news sources, university domains, print sources, whatever. I guarantee you you will get similar results. 182.249.8.67 (talk) 03:01, 25 December 2014 (UTC) (Hijiri88's phone)
Google hits are meaningless. Recondition by reliable, third-party sources is what we go by, and he is recognized as being know for his work on Dr. Slump as I demonstrated by the link below. —Farix (t | c) 03:17, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
As I already pointed out, it's not my job to find reliable sources to contradict ProKro's complete lack of sources, and counting GBooks hits on my phone is near-impossible, but apparently only 28 GBooks results mention "Toriyama Akira" and "Slump" but not "Dragon Ball", and of these eight list Toriyama as an author and have "Dr. Slump" in the title. Of the other 20, at least three are other manga of questionable relevance and several more look like books discussing unrelated "Slump"s (what the hell is "皿スランプ"??). I'll check the corresponding, no doubt OVERWHELMING, results mentioning Toriyama and Dragon Ball but not Dr. Slump when I have time on a computer, unless someone else wants to beat me to the punch. (Of course, you are all free to not do so, and then claim I'm the one cherry-picking questionable statistics. I'm not assuming anyone will do this, just prpviding a general caution as to why you shouldn't.) 182.249.8.67 (talk) 04:49, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
That is certainly not concensus, and it seems that you need to read a bit on wikipedia's policies such as WP:BRD and the WP:CONSENSUS you linked. And especially WP:WAR. —WOFall (talk) 17:13, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
While Dr. Slump is not as well known as his later work, Dragon Ball, that doesn't mean that he isn't known for it. This is also a rather significant media franchise as well, producing numerous anime TV and film spinoffs and a followup manga serialization. There was even a crossover with Dragon Ball at one point of Dragon Ball's serialization. If you need conformation of this, simply look at the sources in the Dr. Slump article itself. —Farix (t | c) 18:46, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
@User:TheFarix: I've read the crossover (along with virtually everything else in both mangas). This is like staying "Stan Lee is best-known for his creation of The Fantastic Four and the characters of Ronan the Accuser and Spider-Man" -- maybe a single film featuring Ronan far out-performed a film featuring Spider-Man in 2014, but putting the two characters on the same level in the article on their original creator (even if they have crossed-over several times!), let alone claiming Lee is particularly well-known for Ronan the Accuser, is patently ridiculous. Hijiri 88 (やや) 23:44, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
In critical circles, he is still know for that work. Even in news articles on his other works, such as this one] from Anime News Network a few months ago, he is directly associated with both Dragon Ball and Dr. Slump. This verifies that his is well known for both. Besides, your edit has been disputed by multiple editors, so you shouldn't be remaking it per WP:BRD. —Farix (t | c) 00:48, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
@User:TheFarix: Citing one article from an (American) online fan publication is pretty meaningless when it comes to making claims about what people in the real world (as opposed to Misplaced Pages) knows him for. Of the first 20 results for a search of his name on Mainichi Shimbun's website, all 20 are either specifically about Dragon Ball and name him as the creator, or on largely unrelated topics and name him as "Toriyama Akira, author of the (hit) manga Dragon Ball", and it seems none of them mention Dr. Slump even once. I could repeat this experiment for the other big newspapers. 182.249.8.67 (talk) 07:14, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Anime News Network is not a "meaningless fan publication". It is one of the most prestigious and respected anime news sites out there. Just because it is an English language website does not invalidate it as demonstrating that he is know for his work on Dr. Slump. As for more evidence that his is know for his work on Dr. Slump:
Your attempt to use raw Google hits as proof that he isn't know for this work just down right fallacious. —Farix (t | c) 14:38, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

No. Toriyama has not been best known for Dr. Slump for at least 30 years. This is not "American Misplaced Pages" -- the fact that virtually no one in the US has heard of Toriyama PERIOD means "what Americans have heard of" should be taken with a pinch of salt either way. "鳥山といえば『ドラゴンボール』" is a phrase I have actually heard people say; "鳥山といえば『ドクタースランプ』" is something NO ONE has EVER said outside of this Misplaced Pages article. Dragon Quest and Chrono Trigger are both MUCH better-known (in Japan, the US, Ireland..........) and more widely-associated with Toriyama than Dr. Slump, and no one is arguing for adding those. Dragon Ball is the only thing that we can reasonably say he is "best-known for"; adding anything else to this statement would violate WP:WEIGHT. Hijiri 88 (やや) 23:39, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

  • Dragon Quest and Chrono Trigger themselves may be better known than Dr. Slump, but they are big projects where the artist is not necessarily well recognized. The notability of the connection is what we're concerned with, not just the notability of the work. Also, Dragon Quest is mentioned in that very line.
  • Dr. Slump is very much notable in its own right, and as Toriyama is the creator it's at least as relevant here as Dragon Quest.
  • The wording "best known for" doesn't imply the grammatical constraint of listing only one work, which seems to be your interpretation. I don't think anyone would argue that Dr. Slump is as well known as Dragon Ball, but it was successful and influential, and he is well known for it.
  • In my view, this is a small detail to be arguing over so fiercely (myself included), regardless of whether there's an obvious "right" answer or not. In any case, please don't continue an edit war when there's active discussion and no consensus. I will presently make a "compromise edit" that continues to include Dr. Slump, but gives greater weight to Dragon Ball. —WOFall (talk) 00:24, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
While I was agonizing over how to contort the wording, TheFarix made a simple and genius edit of simply removing the word "best". Hopefully we can agree that this sidesteps the issue. —WOFall (talk) 00:46, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
That's still a problem, because it's certainly debatable whether "Toriyama Akira is known for Dr. Slump" or "Dr. Slump is known for having been written by Toriyama Akira, who also created the wildly-popular manga Dragon Ball". Until I see a reliable source that says otherwise, my view that Dr. Slump is primarily notable for its connection to Toriyama, and not the other way around is unlikely to change. As for the video games: that's precisely why I'm NOT in favour of putting his work on the Dragon Quest franchise on par with (in the same sentence as) Dragon Ball. 182.249.8.67 (talk) 03:23, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Also, while I don't intend to edit war, I should point out that the WP:BURDEN is on the party wishing to add the information. If an unsourced, contentious claim is challenged, it should not be re-added without consensus. So far the only substantial argument that has been made in favour of the current wording has been "this product sold x units". (Factual claims like "it was his breakout work" are useless without reliable sources). Even if 2-3 users were making irrelevant strawman arguments and I was the only one arguing against the current wording, it still wouldn't matter. 182.249.8.67 (talk) 03:49, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
I must concur with Hijiri 88/182.249.8.67. Since this the English Misplaced Pages, we have an audience primarily of English-language viewers, and let us not forget the editors. The Dr. Slump franchise in the US and UK alone, if ever there was, is virtually non-existent and the series goes largely unnoticed. Harmony Gold USA, in my understanding, had acquired the license to dub the anime back in the '80s. The series was never fully introduced, so it had not sought similar popularity as it did in Asia or in some third world countries. It is useless to warrant a mention in the lead paragraph, see wp:lead, which clearly tells us to express the main point at hand, which is Tori's most well known creation Dragon Ball. RoaringFlamer41 — Preceding undated comment added 10:14, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Given the flagrant strawmanning on the part of at least two of the people who want the article to claim he is just as well-known for Dr. Slump (most recently WOFall's above repeated accusations that I am trying to make the lead say "He is best-known for the manga Dragon Ball and the video games Dragon Quest and Chrono Trigger" or some such), I need to point this out: "No one in America has heard of Dr. Slump, and this is English Misplaced Pages" is NOT a part of my argument. This being English Misplaced Pages is completely irrelevant: we shouldn't claim "X is best-known for Y", when what we really mean is "Among English-speaking Americans, X is best-known for Y" -- especially when only a tiny minority of people who have heard of X at all are "English-speaking Americans". At least 50% of people who have heard of Toriyama are Japanese, so we should most certainly not be ignoring how the Japanese media describe him. I'm beginning to notice a trend that whenever I post external evidence such as search engine hits and newspaper articles this evidence is completely ignored by everyone else. Can I get a show of handsso I know: who here is actually able to read a newspaper article and/or our subject's name in Japanese? 182.249.8.67 (talk) 11:04, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
I am going to seriously pretend I didn't read that, Hijiri. This is the English Misplaced Pages. It's our job to maintain an English treasure trove of information. For heaven's sake! This isn't about the obsessive fans, it's not even about an American audience. It's about making note of what's right for this website. I, for one, will never stop following the rules. RoaringFlamer41 — Preceding undated comment added 06:42, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
Nope. We can't say someone is "best known for" something and mean they are best known for it among English-speaking Americans, especially when virtually no English-speaking Americans know them in the first place. The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of people who have heard of Toriyama are not American, so there's no way we can ignore that overwhelming majority when claiming that people in general have heard of him for some particular work. It's simply factually incorrect. English Misplaced Pages simply means it is written in English -- the English language does not have a separate set of facts from other languages.
But that's beside the point. You and I actually agree on the wording of the article in this case.
Hijiri 88 (やや) 14:24, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
Categories: