Revision as of 17:43, 17 July 2006

Key issues

Are spoiler tags a violation of Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy

This claim holds that spoiler tags are a violation of Misplaced Pages's policy of "Neutral point of view", or "NPOV". This claim is held on the grounds that they are specifically geared to the purpose of suggesting to readers that they may not wish to read this information, a non-impartial judgement made on the basis of an editors' own interpretations and assumptions. The spoiler warning (in fact created to serve that very purpose and called just that: a warning) is, by its very nature, an example of an editor inserting their opinions into an article to influence readers' decisions to read or not read specific information. A warning can only exist if someone has passed their judgement upon it and then creates a notice based on that judgement. In this case, that is what is taking place with spoiler warnings, and that personal judgement of editors is being passed on to the readers.

NPOV was ipmlemented for the specific purpose of keeping editors' personal opinions out of articles, and not allowing these opinions to reach readers to the effect of influencing what information they absorbed or how they perceived it as they absorbed it. An aspect of this policy is known as "Let the facts speak for themselves". The detailed plot information within an article will identify itself as such on the basis of what it is offering. It need not be specifically targeted with a banner that strives to suggest to readers that the information may be inappropriate for them to view.

Discussion

Most, if not all, spoilers can easily be agreed on by most editors and readers. If not, then visit the issue on an article by article basis.

What would be a point of view is how that spoiler might affect someone's enjoyment of the text. If we commented on the tags, like saying "this is a class 10 spoiler!" or "You won't laugh as much at this scene", that would be point of view. There are some fictional works where, based on by past or current experience with similar work, I can spoil myself and still enjoy it. But other stuff can really effect the enjoyment of a work of fiction when you know something prematurely. Spoiler warnings don't comment on the why and how, they only comment that it is a spoiler. I do not see the labeling of spoilers as a POV.

We are labeling information, just as we label protagonists and antagonists, major themes, or any other element. Some readers might use these labels for navigation, some might not.

People might get some feedback from the editor based on how an editor writes or formats an article, such as what parts of the topic the editor chooses to focus on. In any case, the effect spoiler tags have, in my experience and others, is as insignificant as how something is formatted. -- Ned Scott 13:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

POV is the judgement that the information will affect someone's enjoyment of the work at all. The censorship that follows is the actions taken to "save" the readers. This isn't labeling, which has only the purpose of making information more accessible. This is an attempt at warning people not to read something for fear of their enjoyment of a work being "spoiled." Hell, look at that word: "spoilers." Does that sound like a neutral word? It's only called that because of the belief that people knowing things about a story in advance "spoils"/ruins it. Ryu Kaze 13:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

A "spoiler" simply exposes - spoils - the otherwise unknown parts of a plot. It makes no judgement call, even if the term carries some perjorative weight with some people. It's not a POV term at all. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

It's POV to say that information spoils/ruins a plot in the first place. The word itself carries a negative connotation because it's implying "This is going to be ruined if you read this." It's not a neutral word, mustless capable of being used in a neutral manner. A spoiler warning is something based on an individual's personal judgement in the first place. How can it be neutral? Ryu Kaze 16:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

So if we rename the spoiler tag, does that fix it? If we remove the linje "spoiler warning," is that all it needs to be fixed? --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no POV issue inherrant to the spoiler tag. What point of view is advanced by saying that the following information gives away plot or ending details? The point of view that the ending to the Sixth Sense was not an important ending detail? Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying any political agenda is being furthered by their use, but that the personal views of an editor (that this information could damage someone's ability to appreciate a fictional work) are being inserted. That is a violation of Misplaced Pages policy. Furthermore, those views are being inserted for the explicit purpose of suggesting to readers that their ability to enjoy a fictional work could be "spoiled". Thus, the origin of the word "spoilers". Ryu Kaze 16:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you asking me to cite sources that believe that the ending to the sixth sense is a plot or ending detail - the POV endorsed by the tag is "Plot and/or ending details follow." This is like saying that the title of our Railroad article endorses the pov that reality exists and is not just a series of pictures projected onto a cave wall. - I believe Plato would require proof. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't pretend that this is about labeling. It's about trying to get people not to look at things "for their own sake", on the basis of an editor's own judgement. No matter how good the intentions, they're supposed to keep their nose out of it. Period. Ryu Kaze 17:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not. It's about allowing people to choose not to look at things that they do not wish to get information on. You alledged that the statement "Plot and/or ending details follow." was a violation of NPOV. NPOV is set in stone. Misplaced Pages:No disclaimer templates is not. If you want to talk about the basic reason not to include them, please don't discuss NPOV, which is what this section is about. What is the other POV? Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Ryu, I think it is bad faith to accuse another editor of "pretending". I think you need to accept that some people do see this as another type of label, that is no more problematic than any other label. Johntex\ 17:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Hm. Perhaps you're right. I just can't see how someone can arrive at that conclusion given the thought processes that goes into placing that tag. I truly can't understand how anyone would think it's not POV in light of how and why a spoiler tag gets inserted. But, okay. I'll try to accept the notion even if it makes totally no sense to me. Ryu Kaze 17:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

By the way, isn't it even more of a contradiction to have a disclaimer tag when we have a "no disclaimers" guideline? And both are guidelines? Ryu Kaze 17:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Are spoiler tags a violation of Misplaced Pages's censorship policy

As a consequence of the previous claim, this claim holds that spoiler tags are a violation of Misplaced Pages's policy of "Misplaced Pages is not censored". This claim is held on the grounds that — "censorship" being defined as "the act or practice of censoring", this latter word itself defined as "to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable" — spoiler tags are a case of the unstandardized regulation of information with regards to the presentation of its content as appropriate or inappropriate to some.

While Misplaced Pages certainly doesn't include all information, policies such as "Misplaced Pages is not censored" or "NPOV" are designed to prevent the inclusion of an editors' own assumptions and judgements concerning information that has already met the requirements for inclusion here, most notably verifiability and relevance with regards to the subject. In other words, if information has been found to merit inclusion in the article, then it is simply relevant information that is then supposed to be presented to the readers as impartially as any other information, whether this information be spoilers or not. It is to be treated as any other information would be and offered to the readers as such.

As can be seen by clicking on the encyclopedia-wide disclaimer at the bottom of any Misplaced Pages page, there is already a notice to readers that any and all sections of any and all pages may contain detailed plot information. This serves as a universal notice that identifies all information within this encyclopedia, and, thus, it is an impartial and standardized regulation. Spoiler tags, however, target specific information selected by an editor on the basis of their own judgement of what they feel may be seen as inappropriate by some.

Also, unlike simple headers (such as "Development" or "Gameplay"), spoiler tags are not designed to the function of making information more accessible to the reader by grouping it into coherent sets that flow from one to another. They, in fact, aim to suggest readers not look at specific information. The spoiler tags are designed to serve as a warning, a deterrent, a suggestion of what is one's best interest. For that matter, the word itself carries a negative connotation. "Spoilers" is so-called due to the idea that knowing plot details before viewing a work will spoil/ruin the later experience of viewing that work — this, in itself, being a judgement based on editors' assumptions.

Misplaced Pages's policies already inform readers that there are things on Misplaced Pages that some may find inappropriate. This includes, but may not be limited to, images of pornography, abuse and torture of humans, genocide, prostitutes, female genitalia, exotic dancers and also artwork of children or individuals with child-like appearances in sexual situations or imagery alluding to sexual situations. In fact, several such images and even entire articles have been targeted for censorship of various kinds in the past (examples: opposition to a pornographic image, attempt to have the Lolicon page deleted, creation of a censored version of the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse page, creation of a censored version of the Clitoris page), only to be protected on the grounds that Misplaced Pages is not censored, regardless of concerns over what is appropriate or inappropriate to some. In fact, one particular warning tag (much like the spoiler tag being discussed here) attempting to warn people about images of torture was also denied.

Discussion

Just to get things started for the pro-spoiler-tag side:

The censorship accusation would only hold water if people used the warning itself as a reason not to read information, rather than their own decision to read or not to read. If a reader wishes to read only some information and not other, that is their right as a reader. Giving readers that option makes Misplaced Pages more useful. People know what we mean when we say "spoiler warning", they're not going to freak out over some misunderstanding and think the text is somehow dangerous. And spoilers, unlike pictures of aborted babies and dead puppies, aren't "offensive" or political or anything like that, so the spoilers themselves and any warnings about them are in a totally different league than what we think of as censorship. If the tags were an attempt to influence the reader, then maybe, but informing the reader to allow them to make their own choice is different than trying to influence them. -- Ned Scott 13:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Um... that argument kind of contradicts itself. "We're going to give this warning to the reader to avoid some information and if they thereafter avoid it, it has nothing to do with the warning itself"? That doesn't make any sense. In fact, that doesn't even make any sense with regards to the purpose of the warning. It's not making the decision for them, but no warning does. That doesn't make it any less a warning that's going to influence the decision they make. Which is not something editors are supposed to be doing. That's the whole reason we have policies to prevent editors from trying to influence what people take from articles.

And they get their choice when they show up and see the word "encyclopedia" plastered everywhere, even if they do avoid the site's disclaimer and policies. Which is their own fault anyway. People afraid of knowledge shouldn't be coming to what aims to be the most comprehensive body of it in the world. Ryu Kaze 13:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The tag do have something to do with the readers choice, but only because it's there, it's data. I don't have to know if a picture of a vagina is what it is, I only have to know that the article on vaginas has pictures. If Misplaced Pages said, this article contains pictures, would that be censorship? no, but if they said "this contains nasty lookin' pictures of this chick's muff" that'd be censorship.

Articles aren't supposed to be detailed retellings of the plot, but rather should have information on reception and production. I don't read an article to know "who done it", I read an article to see who produced it, or who voiced a character in an animation, or what inspired the main artist (assuming that information was not speculation, but based on comments the artist made, of course). Articles can include great levels of detail if there is a need, but that is not a requirement for a good article on a fictional work. I myself go to articles all the time to only get such basic info, many times while I'm reading/ watching something and have yet to finish it.

Where did you get the idea that articles aren't supposed to be comprehensive? That runs entirely contrary to our purpose here. Being comprehensive means we're going to detail the plot. Ryu Kaze 16:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Being comprehensive doesn't have to include spoilers, so it's no surprise when people show up here not expecting to see them. Even if they did avoid Misplaced Pages altogether because they knew it included spoilers, how is that any less of an "influence" than them avoiding a single section of an article? That argument contradicts itself. -- Ned Scott 14:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Being comprehensive absolutely has to include detailed information about the plot. Otherwise, it's not being comprehensive. That's a seriously cut and dry issue. Ryu Kaze 16:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler tags are not a violation of our not-censored policy. They are a violation of our no-disclaimer-templates policy (or guideline), but they are a specific exception designed to increase the value of the encyclopedia. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Exception? Based on whose judgement? And how do they increase the value of the encyclopedia? As noted in the issue summaries here, the very first policy of Misplaced Pages states that tools not beneficial to our mission have no place here. In what way does this tool contribute to our mission of being a comprehensive body of knowledge? Ryu Kaze 16:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

"I really would like to know the name of that little kid who is playing the lead role in the sixth sense opposite Bruce Willis that I have just rented and am watching for the first time with no knowledge of what is about to happen. I'll check Misplaced Pages!" We just lost a reader. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

And to that I have to say "So?" We're not here to count readers like a (hmm!) fansite. We're here to build an encyclopedia. If people are afraid of knowledge, they shouldn't be here. Besides, they shouldn't think that Misplaced Pages's a film fansite in the first place. They have IMDb.com for that. Ryu Kaze 17:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

An unread encyclopedia informs no one. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly right. Let's strive to make a "useful, well-read" encyclopedia. Does anyone really think it is OK if we build an encyclopedia and no-one wants to read it? Johntex\ 17:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it more important than an encyclopedia live up to being an encyclopedia before anyone reads it anyway. If it doesn't, who cares if it's read or not? It wasn't an encyclopedia. Ryu Kaze 17:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Are spoiler tags considered encyclopedic and/or professional

This claim holds that spoiler tags are an unprofessional and unencyclopedic tool, that — while, perhaps, useful to those who would rather not see spoilers — has no place in Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is designed with the intention of being a comprehensive body of information on many subjects, including works of fiction. By the very definition of the word "encyclopedia" (appearing in the subtitle of Misplaced Pages, and visibile in two places on every single page of the encyclopedia), readers are informed of what to expect from this encyclopedia. Furthermore, the site's universal content notice (accessible from the bottom of every page of Misplaced Pages) and Misplaced Pages's policies serve also to make this known.

Those who do not wish to view comprehensive information, thus, should be aware already that by reading this encyclopedia, they may be viewing detailed plot information. Furthermore, it is Misplaced Pages's very foundation to serve as a neutral, comprehensive body of information that puts principles of encyclopedic conduct before any thoughts of courtesies to readers when they do not directly aid the encyclopedia's mission. The encyclopedia's very first policy states "Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. Its goals go no further, and material that does not fit this goal must be moved to another Wikimedia project or removed altogether". Simply being considered useful by some is not grounds for a tool's inclusion in Misplaced Pages, especially if that tool calls for certain allowances concerning foundational policies, in this case, "NPOV" and "Misplaced Pages is not censored".

Furthermore, the image of Misplaced Pages as a professional, uncensored and unbiased encyclopedia is tarnished by such exemptions to policy. Additionally, these exemptions serve to set a precedent which may be cited in the future by others who wish to secure the inclusion of additional forms of censorship, as was attempted during the above-mentioned creation of a censored version of the Clitoris page with regards to the creation of a censored version of the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse page. Such exemptions can and will lead to further demands for exemptions. Once a double-standard has been established, it need only be consistently reiterated and looked to as the example for it to become the example of standard conduct.

A single exemption is as a thousand. The double-standard need only exist for the recognition of those policies being avoided to already be null and void. The standard has already been abandoned and an encyclopedia's image as a professional, uncensored and unbiased body of comprehensive knowledge is stained. A body of text either is an encyclopedia or it is not. There are certain principles that it must conform to in order to be one. Given that Misplaced Pages's mission is to be an encyclopedia, it must recognize the principles reflected in its policies in order to assert that it is one. Misplaced Pages's image is a direct reflection of the reality of its governance and the practices thereof. If there are exemptions and double-standards being allowed, they will not be invisible.

While there are certain professional bodies that do allow the inclusion of spoiler warnings, such as the New York Times, these professional bodies are not encyclopedias. Being professional in the context of journalism is sometimes significantly different from being professional in the context of encyclopedic behavior. For one, the journalism approach calls for the analyzation of information, and the presentation of conclusions drawn from that study. The encyclopedic approach, as used here on Misplaced Pages, calls for the presentation of raw data for the purpose of allowing others to analyze and draw their conclusions. In other words, an encyclopedia is something that one might reference if they were writing a newspaper article. As such, an encyclopedia cannot to be held to the standard of such a drastically different professional body.

However, where newspapers offer critical evaluations of art and commentary upon events, they are more similar in their approach to the encyclopedic one. Here, being professional in the context of criticism is similar to being professional in the context of encyclopedic behavior. Critics professionally analyse, evaluate and then present conclusions, as can be seen in this spoiler warning free review of Superman Returns by Philip French in The Observer. This piece discusses the film in a critical manner and analyses specific plot points and images for that evaluation, somewhat similar to the approach an encyclopedia takes. Also, critcal reviews are something editors to Misplaced Pages use as a reference when writing articles. As such, an encyclopedia may be held to the standard of such a professional body in certain situations. In general, however, journalism and encyclopedias take an entirely different approach.

For examples of the encyclopedic standard, we can look only to the principles of the concept at work, and the illustrations of those principles as displayed by Misplaced Pages's contemporaries. Such bodies as Encyclopedia Britannica, World Book Encyclopedia, Compton's Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Americana, which do not include spoiler warnings in their articles about fictional works. While one might argue that paper encyclopedias cannot be considered as among the fraternity of an electronic encyclopedia, nowhere in Misplaced Pages's policies is such an ideal reflected. While Misplaced Pages is not paper, this has no bearing on the objective Misplaced Pages is striving for, nor the principles associated with reaching that goal. All Misplaced Pages's status as a paper encyclopedia alters are its limitations in achieving — or exceeding — the quality of its contemporaries. By virtue of its electronic nature, a number of additional tools are present to allow Misplaced Pages to more easily meet the aspects of its goal related to being comprehensive and rendering information easily accessible.

If, however, we were to look only to the electronic versions of Misplaced Pages's above-mentioned contemporaries, we would still find that these also do not include spoiler warnings in their articles about works of fiction. While some might argue that this is also not a valid indication of what Misplaced Pages should be striving for given that these other encyclopedias do not include often up-to-date information on in-progress television programs or upcoming films and books, to that one has to ask: if we are not looking to the princicples of making an encyclopedia, Misplaced Pages's own policies which reflect these principles (and which present themselves as the standard by which we are to follow) and Misplaced Pages's contemporaries, then where would we be looking, given that Misplaced Pages is not attempting to redefine the word "encyclopedia"? By virtue of its own policies and goal, Misplaced Pages identifies that it is attempting to be exactly what its goal and first policy says: an encyclopedia, and one that fits the previously established criterion of what that word entails.

Additionally, the use of a begin-spoiler and end-spoiler template approach to articles imposes the notion that spoilers must be contained "inside the box". This can lead to organization and layout issues, or incidents of "spoiler tag spaghetti", such as this one.

Given all this, Misplaced Pages's professional image can only be tarnished by the presence of spoiler tags, a tool popularized by usenet and fansites, not professional encyclopedias, with such practices have been strongly opposed by Misplaced Pages founder Jimbo Wales. Again returning to the earlier point concerning tools that might be useful to some, Misplaced Pages's first policy states "Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. Its goals go no further, and material that does not fit this goal must be moved to another Wikimedia project or removed altogether". Given that spoiler tags offer no actual boon to Misplaced Pages's purpose of being an encyclopedia, they have no actual place here, useful to some or not. Also, given their dubious nature where Misplaced Pages's policies and encyclopedic foundations are concerned, they are more likely than not a tool counterproductive to its purpose.

Discussion

I've been waiting to actually make comments, but I can't really let that last edit go about the whole Superman newspaper review. The damn review didn't have a spoiler, thus there wouldn't be a spoiler warning. Who cares if Usenet or fansites also use spoiler warnings, they've used a hell of a lot of stuff that is now standardized, (like custom signatures, which many of the anti-spoiler editors use, or terms like 'spam messages'). The concept of spoilers and even the word itself pre-dates the web, the only reason we see it a lot in the web is before people talked about movies and such instead of typing it out. Encyclopedias don't talk about fiction in this depth, that in itself is 'un-encyclopedic' by this definition, but we accept those articles as a new standard that Misplaced Pages is creating.

Just because no one has done it on such a large scale only means that we're the first. (first only in that it's a single entity, where as other uses have been scattered) A lot of people I don't want to associate with out there use terms and words that I use, I don't stop using those words because someone else I don't like uses them. Ask a random reader if they thought a spoiler tag was out of place on a wiki article (although I would agree with you that the tags on the classic fiction is a bit dumb, but I'll address that later). You want to second guess how readers perceive the internet, then go ahead, but the argument is completely unfounded and without any proof. Newspapers and paper encyclopedias are used to doing the things they've done for years, and are a hell of a lot less likely to change and grow, unlike Misplaced Pages. Just because fansites use them too, give me a break. I know people who, last year, thought things like internet chatting and instant messaging were just kids stuff, and now use those thing. This is an issue of POV that we can't predict, not what the view is now, or how it will be in the future. If anyone has actual proof or real feedback about how spoiler tags affect a readers view on wikipedia, then please, show me. -- Ned Scott 13:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm unsure of the point over the inclusion of the Superman review myself, but I don't think Steve's point there had anything to do with actual spoilers. I think it was more to do with... well, everything else he mentioned about it. Anyway, as for usenet and fansites, obviously the venue is entirely different. Encyclopedia articles aren't discussion boards or fan-oriented. They're information and education-oriented only, and there's still the matter of the policies to consider. In any event, we're not creating a new standard with regards to fiction (the policies and mission statement makes no such allusion). We're just doing what paper encyclopedias don't have the room to always do: be as comprehensive as possible.

Anyway, truthfully, yes, we should very much be distancing ourself from the principles of fansites. That's not we're about and we shouldn't be implementining the foundation of their philosophies into ours, especially when it creates a conflict due to what foundation we already have.

Not too sure about your point about asking random readers questions, though. If the spoiler tags are doing what they're put there to do, the reader wouldn't be able to tell you if it was well-placed or not, as they wouldn't have looked at what they were being warned not to read, right? And original research can't be used here anyway. Ryu Kaze 13:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be mistaken, original research can't be used as article sources, but doing something like a survey is acceptable to gain input in a case like this. And to avoid something simply because a fansite is doing it is almost as bad as doing it because they're doing it. That's no different than saying "Oh no, that loser is wearing the same t-shirt that I am! I have to change my shirt." -- Ned Scott 13:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The principles are incompatible with an encyclopedia's. Ryu Kaze 13:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's your opinion and I respectfully disagree with you. -- Ned Scott 14:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

And this section really repeats a lot of the previous two sections, which really defeats the purpose of setting this RfC up this way. Lets focus on the professional/encyclopedic views other than NPOV and censorship, which have their own discussion headings. -- Ned Scott 13:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the subjects are all interrelated, so they're going to overlap at times. However, the points being made about each are pretty logically seperated. The first two sections focus on the princicple of the matters itself, while the third focuses on the effect this has professionally. Ryu Kaze 13:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they're interrelated, but repeating yourself and making a section over bloated in an attempt to rail road the issue really undermines the debate. -- Ned Scott 13:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Explaining something in detail (which is why this section is here) is not an attempt to "railroad the issue." It's an attempt to explain the issue in detail. Ryu Kaze 13:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler tags are a dramatic violation of our encyclopedic tone, and as such their use should be constrianed to places where the value of the ending to the plot at large overweighs our desire to be completist with information. Examples - M. Night Shalaman movies. Most other tags should go. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• I've been waiting to actually make comments, but I can't really let that last edit go about the whole Superman newspaper review. The damn review didn't have a spoiler

• And there we have the problem in a nutshell since the review reveals that Lois Lane's baby is by Superman. So what is a spoiler and when do we use the templates? Steve block Talk 17:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• • I do not consider that a substantial enough plot or ending detail to justify spoiler tags for the purpose of wikipedia. The Usual Suspects Sixth Sense Dumbledore, sure. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
    • No, but some will. There are other plot details revealed in the review, including the ending. My whole point on this issue is asking what constitutes a spoiler, and I was hoping to show that just because one section of one newspaper contains spoiler warnings, another section of another paper does not. I thought it behooves a fair discussion to offer a counter example to the one given, but Ned appears to dispute that, and I believe also disputes that it's plausible that standards offered by critics should affect the writing of critical articles for this encyclopedia. Steve block Talk 17:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I personally do not endorse the the term "spoiler" or the template's intent to warn of being an encyclopedia. Its similar to saying, "watch out, we're comprehensive and you might learn something". Its utterly absurd to warn someone about the learning process when people are supposed to come to learn. How is one subject more justiposed than another...? All subjects in an encyclopedia are treated equally.

And no, I'm not concerned about people jumping about, protesting "nah, nah I don't want to hear that". As editors in wikipedia, the quality of many of our articles has a very long way to go. Our reputation as a encyclopedia stil has yet to be fully established. This amoung other issues and yet editors are mistaking the quality of the encyclopedia for placing irrelevant tags about, rather than referencing articles, expansion of stubs and copyedits. The last thing neutral editors should have concern for is "harmful" or "Spoilish" information in a comprehensive source of knowledge. If spoiler warnings have a place here than this is not an encyclopedia. -Randall Brackett 17:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Possible solutions

The following are proposed solutions to the issues discussed above, and the results of discussion here, here and here. Please be aware that users may add their name to the support of more than one solution. In such a case, please indicate preference. A simple placement of "(preference)" beside your name will suffice. Remember that this is not a vote, and if you list your name below be sure to indicate your reasons.

Note: additional solutions may be proposed and offered support. Please add new proposals to the bottom of this section.

Hiding spoiler tags by default

One possible solution to this issue that has been presented is the notion of spoiler tags' default status being that they are turned off. In other words, someone accessing the encyclopedia would be approaching a default version in which there were no spoiler tags. They would, however, have the option (whether logged in or not) to turn them on.

Support

1. Ryu Kaze — If they're going to be here, then they shouldn't be on the default setting of the site, turning it into a hypocritical mass of fan-dedicated muck. Principles come before courtesies in creating an encyclopedia every single time.

Oppose

1. badlydrawnjeff talk 12:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. I thought it was a good idea at first, but it will just cause more problems that it would "fix". Ned Scott 13:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
3. :: Kevinalewis : /_(Desk) 14:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - no overbearing need for this people just need to read carefully each article (and spoiler notice)
4. Johntex 15:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - Spoiler warnings are useful and should be kept, and kept visible. Requiring a new user to figure out how to turn them on is not a good idea.
5. talk #c 16:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC) Then what would be the point of having them?
6. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC). Removes all of the substantial value from the templates.

Deleting spoiler templates

Another solution suggested is that spoiler templates be deleted altogether.

Support

1. Spoiler warnings are not appropriate in an encyclopedia. Misplaced Pages contains information. That's what encyclopedias do, and warning about it is silly. The standard disclaimer at the bottom of every page is enough, and we should do like the Germans did and simply ban them. Shanes 14:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. Utterly unencyclopediac. Irrelevant to the construction of an encyclopedia. -Randall Brackett 15:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
3. Inappropriate. o/s/p 16:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
4. Ryu Kaze — Preferred solution, though I'd accept the "turned off by default" compromise if others would agree to it. As said there, principles come before courtesies in creating an encyclopedia every single time. If someone's offended that this place is a comprehensive body of information, then maybe they shouldn't be coming here. We're here to make an encyclopedia, not jump at every problem a reader might have with relevant content.

Oppose

1. badlydrawnjeff talk 12:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. I don't think they need to be removed at all, and removing the template will only cause editors who still disagree to make their own forked templates and messages. Then we won't even be able to regulate their appearance or turn them off at all. -- Ned Scott 13:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
3. :: Kevinalewis : /_(Desk) 14:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - Now that would just be silly!
4. Johntex 15:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - Very useful and not problematic. They should be kept.
5. talk #c 16:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC) Misplaced Pages broke the encyclopedia mold.
6. Too far. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Keep spoiler tags

Keep spoiler tags and possibly revisit guidelines to see when it is approprate or not to use the tag.

Support

1. badlydrawnjeff talk 12:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. Per the comments I'll eventually write up once I calm down, but in any case, I am totally opposed to the complete removal of a spoiler tag. Ned Scott 13:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
3. :: Kevinalewis : /_(Desk) 14:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - It ain't broke - so!
4. Johntex 15:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - Keep them as they are.
5. talk #c 16:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC) Getting rid of them could upset people
6. Use needs to be substantially curtailed. See my edits to template coming shortly. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

1. As per my support to their removal. Shanes 14:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. Inappropriate in an proffesional source of knowledge. Has no value in an encyclopedia.-Randall Brackett 15:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
3. Ryu Kaze — As per my support to their being removed.

Allow spoiler tag usage to be decided case by case

Support

1. badlydrawnjeff talk 12:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. Spoiler tags require context, different works of fiction treat things in different ways. Ned Scott 13:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
3. :: Kevinalewis : /_(Desk) 14:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - Leave to community and trust the majority of editors.
4. Leave to community, but curtail use to only eggregious spoilers. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

1. (Name goes here; please leave the number sign)

Guideline, essay or rejected status

Spoiler templates were previously listed as a guideline, but it has been proposed that they be downgraded to essay status — a document that expresses the opinions and ideas of some Wikipedians, but that doesn't necessarily reflect Misplaced Pages's policies or actual consensus — or rejected as a proposal that failed to gain consensus.

Support of essay status

1. Ryu Kaze — If they remain, then they most definitely shouldn't be a guideline, which gives the impression that a comprehensive body of information supports censorship and shielding of knowledge.

Support of guideline status

1. badlydrawnjeff talk 12:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. Clearly, any inclusion would need a guideline. Calling it an essay won't discourage editors from using it, if that's the goal. -- Ned Scott 13:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
3. :: Kevinalewis : /_(Desk) 14:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - a guideline is understandable - I can't even get my mind round what an essay is in this context!
4. Johntex 15:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - It should remain a guideline spelling out suggested good uses.

Support of rejected status

1. The silly warnings should simply go, and if anyone wants to complain about how Cinderella now has been ruined for them, they can write a userspace essay and rant about how "useful" the warnings were there. Shanes 14:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. Per "..a document that expresses the opinions and ideas of some Wikipedians, but that doesn't necessarily reflect Misplaced Pages's policies or actual consensus." -Randall Brackett 15:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
3. Ryu Kaze — Per Randall's quote of the essay description.
4. Per reasoning by User:Ryu Kaze and User:Randall Brackett. o/s/p 16:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Individual user statements

To help prevent discussion from looping through repeated comments, this section allows editors to summarize their overall views on the issues above. Editors may revise their statements provided they link to previous versions (please use diff links from the edit history) of their statements so as to avoid confusion.

When offering comments on this matter, please place a header immediately below with your username as its title. Then offer your views of the issues presented. If you wish, indicate which proposed solution(s) you would support (you may be neutral or present your own proposal), as well as which you would be most in favor of (please be specific in this regard), as well as any potential pros or cons that you feel may follow as a result of recognizing one solution or another. If you are in support of a proposal mentioned above, please add your name to its list of supporters. Again, you may support more than one proposal, but please indicate preference.

User:badlydrawnjeff

• Few of the "against" arguments hold up under greater scrutiny. As spoiler tags have been widely used, it's safe to assume that the content disclaimer and section headers are not enough. I don't see how a spoiler tag at the start of a plot summary violates NPOV, nor is it censorship, as the information still exists. With that said, a "spoiler" is not really subjective, but the use of the tag may be, which is an education issue, not one that should be dealt with via abandonment.
• The only argument I can see making sense is the one about it appearing unprofessional and/or unencyclopedic, but we're not your typical encyclopedia. In a situation where we're linked to as references all over the web, and easily accessable, it becomes a courtesy issue, since it's not an issue otherwise.
• In other words, leave it to article consensus, and leave the guideline as is. If it ain't broke... --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Kevinalewis

• When the usual queation asked is why does[REDACTED] contain spoilers - why are we even debating the careful use of "spoiler tags" to mark where such spoilers are to avoid reading that section of an article. I have seen, congent debate for hiving all spoilers off to completely separate (and related) articles. This not a real option and neither was that. At least in most instances. :: Kevinalewis : /_(Desk) 14:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Randall Brackett

In my time with encyclopedias and my capacity as an editor on wikipedia, I would really say that considering any information with the intent of informative intent as a "spoiler" is quite misleading and utterly destroys the purpose of an encyclopedia. Put simply, an encyclopedia is meant to distribute knowledge and all other quibbles and the like derived from the social crowd are irrelevant. As editors of wikipedia, this our duty as volunteers on the project. The encyclopedia comes first. Always. When an editor or editors presume outside needs of a networking group deserve the attention at the integrity of the encyclopedia there is a serious problem.

On earlier discussions, it has been established the spoiler tag was intended as a cooup-out for people who came to[REDACTED] for entirely the incorrect reasons, such as the false view of a review site, that of a online catalog and dumping ground of information from all veins of subjects. This is entirely the wrong view we wish to give wikipedia. And I've no idea why we should encourage those kinds of people in the construction of an encyclopedia. Misplaced Pages is still an encyclopedia, first and foremost. The unique premise of[REDACTED] as an online source of information is only in effect to permit the variable tools we utilize to improve the quality and wide range of content for encycloepdia. In that[REDACTED] is a new and different venue of sharing this knowledge is true, but our expanded content does not permit the we neglect what an encyclopedia is and how it treats information. An encyclopedia treats all of its information on equivilent standing as to verify its proffessional and neutral take to give each individual subject equal care. The goal of[REDACTED] is not to re-invent the spirit of the encyclopedia, but to expand, elaborate and provide complete inclusion on all sources of knowledge. As such, a video game such as Dead or Alive should and is demanded to recieve the same amount of neutral content and attention as the scientific subject known as the Sea Urchin. That's what[REDACTED] was intended to do - take the usual encyclopedia and expand the amount of knowledge it can hold. Additionally such implemtations such as talkpages, userpages, image uploads, templates, basic-level editting tools exist as sofar in they assist the encyclopedia. Things that do not directly assist the encyclopedia get deleted.

Many editors in support of the template raise functionally sensible arguments that are very appropriate - in an website that did not thrive upon knowledge and build upon elaboration such as plot details, specifics and other related data in the course of it being an encyclopedia. However, some editors became sidetracked; such falsely believed the social ideals derived from external websites were appropriate for the encyclopedia. As such the main arguments include "People like it", "some people think its useful for looking up data not relevant to an encyclopedia" and my favorite: "They don't hurt anything". Had this been an acceptable view such unencyclopediac content would not be disposed of at AFD and DRV (Although I must concced those processes are slightly broken at the current time).

I'm sorry, but that's the most mindbogglingly stupid thing I've ever seen on Misplaced Pages.

Apparently, a "spoiler" is a common term constructed in internet conversation and forums, designed to warn others of inappropriate introductions of story content in non-relevant discussions. Those websites are nowhere near the realm of an encyclopedia and do not document themselves as such. It would be silly to warn to someone whom has come to partake of knowledge at the outset, and furthurmore catering to those who continue to make a point of flaunting their wish to stay ignorant. Ignorance is a foriegn term to encyclopedias, great institutions and other great sources of knowledge. Its one that shouldn't even be considered, much less endorsed. Apparently, somewhere along the line editors percieved wikipedia's unique premise as a carte blanche for the introduction of this ideal and declared it as "essential to the workings of an encyclopedia". Go figure.

Spoiler tags are paticularly irrelevant to the basic tools provided to[REDACTED] editors and readers; the headers and Table of Contents in paticular make it entirely redundant. In addition, many reports have established the tag as placed directly below the header "Plot" or above the TOC. Um, the header doesn't accomplish that how...? Soem might suggest that elaborates upon the content contained, but I utterly refute that claim on the basis people have common sense and people see stuff - If the header says "Plot" than the spoiler tag clarifies nothings. If the prose in question is several pharagraphs in length than of course there will likely be substantial elaboration. Everyone knows how to look at things. Everyone knows an encyclopedia is comprehensive. To presume a reader has no knowledge of this and present the template as a "courtesy" is an utter lie. Stupid people don't read encyclopedias. And by its nature,[REDACTED] is very simplistic in nature concerning navigation, especially in the article namespace.

This is an entirely friviolus template, concieved on imaginary conceptions outside the well-being of the encyclopedia itself. They incite confusion, including the false interpretation about what Misplaced Pages is for (many editors have described it as helpful for those coming to look up information for game reviews and the like; that's not what this site was intended for); they look unprofessional and they trod upon article format, paticulary in thumb ing images. And they are extremely subjective. You cannot define what is and what is not a "spoiler". For example, the Juggernaut (comics) features a redundant spoiler at the start of the article. Compare to Spider-Man, which has a spoiler and end spoiler in a individual prose nearing its conclusion. This is very, very unhelpful. Why aren't these artcles tagged similarly...? Why is this left to the neutral editors of an encyclopedia...? How does it assist the encyclopedia's purpose and quality to others...?

If spoiler tags needn't be removed for the sake of an encyclopedia than I suggest we remove wikipedia's status as an encyclopedia itself. This hasn't any purpose in the course of a goal to build a great encyclopedia. -Randall Brackett 16:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Hipocrite

• The majority of oppose arguments do not focus on the value of the encyclopedia to the readers, except for the damage to our tone. I propose we change the template to have the word "major" or "substantial" in the template (Substantial plot and/or ending...) and use it as infrequently as possible. The template is dramatically overused, currently.(CF - Book of Esther (removed by me) Bubble_Bobble (also removed by me)) and scores of others. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Ryu Kaze

Basically, my reasoning for — at the very least — seeing spoiler tags taken off the default version of the site (though I'd prefer to see them deleted) is that they are based in individual editors' points of view concerning what may or may not be appropriate for readers to see. This judgement is then passed on to the readers in an attempt to influence them not to learn something specifically selected by the editor.

Our NPOV and no censorship policies were created for the purpose of keeping editors' opinions out of the articles. They're not supposed to be trying to influence which information the readers do or do not read, or how they absorb it. All information here that has met the criteria for inclusion is supposed to be treated the same. None of it is supposed to be given a banner that says "This might ruin your ability to enjoy a story," and I honestly don't care if it does ruin someone's ability to enjoy a story. We're not here to put courtesies before principles. Misplaced Pages's founded on encyclopedic principles. If it's going to be an encyclopedia, it's going to have to conform to these principles, and that means spoiler tags (a POV editor-based judgement intended to present specifically-targeted information in a biased light) should not be here. If they're here, then this is a glamorized fansite, and not an encyclopedia.

The bottom line is this: there's a certain integrity involved in being an encyclopedia, and the hypocrisy imposed by allowing spoiler tags to be present undermines that. If they're going to be here, Misplaced Pages's not an encyclopedia and shouldn't claim to be one. If my fellow editors do not have enough concern for the principles and integrity of what we're here to do to ensure that they are upheld, then I will personally push to see the claim that Misplaced Pages's an encyclopedia removed. If it's going to be a fansite, it shouldn't be masquerading as a professional, unbiased, comprehensive body that is serious about knowledge. If it's going to babysit the notion that knowledge is harmful and that shielding people from information is okay in a setting that's supposed to be impartial, then it should not be claiming the dignified title of "encyclopedia". Misplaced Pages either is an encyclopedia or it isn't. If it isn't one, then it shouldn't be claiming to be one. Pretty simple.

Note to Jimbo Wales and the Board: I understand that the idea behind the project is pretty much to let it govern itself. I understand that you guys hope for editors to agree in the best interests of the encyclopedia. I understand that you don't want to interfere. But is this just an experiment to find out if the concept can work? That strangers from all over the world can actually agree and make an encyclopedia? Or is it an attempt to make sure that the mission is fulfilled? I know you guys don't want to interfere in things like this, but if you want this to be an encyclopedia, one would think you'd make sure that it is one when guys like Randall and I can't, when our authority is non-existent or too limited. As editors here, all of us, even those I disagree with, should be working to make this place an encyclopedia. We should never have been able to even argue over this matter. Someone should have stepped in to make sure that the principles outlined were upheld if this place is truly to be an encyclopedia. Sometimes you can't just let the system work when the system is rigged to undermine itself. Sometimes you have to straighten it out and make sure it works.

Now, I'm not blaming you guys, because I understand why you don't like to make decisions for us, but I think that — just as the editors of an encyclopedia must put the princicples of an encyclopedia before courtesies — that the system we all hoped would work in the creation of this encyclopedia must sometimes be put on the backburner for the integrity of the mission itself. The purpose must come before the practice. Ryu Kaze 17:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Steve block

I think one of the things we've got to work out is that perhaps we're going to have to be clear that there's no consensus for the use of spoiler templates, but that we're going to have to offer guidance on how they should be used if there is consensus within a given article to use them. I think it might be an idea to look at offering an additional template, rather broader in scope to be placed at the top of an article, for articles where agreement is hard to reach. Steve block Talk 17:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

General discussion

Place any discussion or comments that do not fit into any of the above sections here.

• I object to the structure of this RfC on the grounds that the top three sections are all biased against use of the spoiler tags. This is giving the new reader a very unbalanced view of the topic. Johntex\ 17:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• • That's entirely the point. Those are the issues being addressed, and since the issues are inherently biased toward the spoiler tags, their presentation will be. That's why I made sure to add "This claim holds that" at the beginning of each, so it's clear that these are the sentiments that led to this discussion. The reasoning for the claims is hopefully what will help someone make their decision, rather than the claims themselves. Anyway, if everyone thought that spoiler tags were okay or everybody thought they were garbage, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Ryu Kaze 17:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
    • But the point is that some people think they are OK and should be left as is, and none of the starter-arguments reflect that view. They all start with the premise that something is wrong and change is needed. That is biased. Johntex\ 17:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)