Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:22, 14 February 2015

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Marxism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4Auto-archiving period: 40 days

Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting.

Template:Communism Portal selected

Template:Vital article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Socialism Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Socialism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of socialism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SocialismWikipedia:WikiProject SocialismTemplate:WikiProject Socialismsocialism Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Sociology High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Economics High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Economics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Economics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EconomicsWikipedia:WikiProject EconomicsTemplate:WikiProject EconomicsEconomics High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Soviet Union Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Soviet Union, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Soviet UnionWikipedia:WikiProject Soviet UnionTemplate:WikiProject Soviet UnionSoviet Union Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Russia: Science & education / History High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Misplaced Pages. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the science and education in Russia task force. This article is supported by the history of Russia task force. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Philosophy: Social and political / Continental High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philosophy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of content related to philosophy on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the general discussion about philosophy content on Misplaced Pages.PhilosophyWikipedia:WikiProject PhilosophyTemplate:WikiProject PhilosophyPhilosophy High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Associated task forces: /  Social and political philosophy Continental philosophy

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Marxism. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Marxism at the Reference desk.

This article is substantially duplicated by a piece in an external publication. Since the external publication copied Misplaced Pages rather than the reverse, please do not flag this article as a copyright violation of the following source: Surhone, L. M., Timpledon, M. T., & Marseken, S. F. (2010), Nicos Poulantzas: Political sociology, Marxism, structural Marxism, Leninism, Eurocommunism, social class, instrumentalism, cultural hegemony, Betascript Publishing{{citation}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) Additional comments OCLC 642007342, ISBN 9786130348038.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Marxism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4Auto-archiving period: 40 days

Adding to Article

I would like to add relevant, well-sourced material from Bakunin and Thomas Pickety. Any objections?

Anarchist critique section:

In 1872 Marx's rival Mikhail Bakunin wrote that Marxism: "can excite the imagination of the workers, who are as eager for justice as they are for freedom; and who foolishly imagine that the one can exist without the other; as if, in order to conquer and consolidate justice and equality, one could depend on the efforts of others, particularly on governments, regardless of how they may be elected or controlled, to speak and act for the people!" Bakunin went on to predict:

For the proletariat this will, in reality, be nothing but a barracks: a regime, where regimented workingmen and women will sleep, wake, work, and live to the beat of a drum; where the shrewd and educated will be granted government privileges; and where the mercenary-minded, attracted by the immensity of the international speculations of the state bank, will find a vast field for lucrative, underhanded dealings.

Economic critique section:

Thomas Piketty wrote: "Marx totally neglected the possibility of durable technological progress and steadily increasing productivity, which is a force that can to some extent serve as a counterweight to the process of accumulation and concentration of private capital. He no doubt lacked the statistical data needed to refine his predictions. He probably suffered as well from having decided on his conclusions in 1848, before embarking on the research needed to justify them." Pickety added that Marx "devoted little thought to the question of how a society in which private capital had been totally abolished would be organized politically and economically - a complex issue if there ever was one, as shown by the tragic totalitarian experiments undertaken in states where private capital was abolished."

Please be specific if you have objections. Thanks!Jimjilin (talk) 21:04, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

If no objections I'll just add this material.Jimjilin (talk) 20:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

What do you mean, "If no objections"? You know full well that elsewhere at least nine editors have already objected to this out-of-context cherry-picking, while not one has supported you. Attempting to shoehorn this content into multiple articles, and to force the same discussion on multiple talk pages, is classic uncooperative editing, and is not acceptable. Please accept that your proposed edits are not accepted, and cease this disruptive behaviour. RolandR (talk) 21:15, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Some objections were made in another article, but this article represents a different topic! Why do you say my additions are cherry picked? The article already contains examples of cherry picking: the views of Zimbabwean Trotskyist Alex Callinicos, Ernest Mandel, and V. Gordon Childe among many others are discussed. Why do you feel my additions are out of context? Piketty is an economist and Bakunin an anarchist.Jimjilin (talk) 19:17, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

If no other objections I'll just add the above mentioned material.Jimjilin (talk) 14:01, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

The addition of this material has been opposed by many editors, in several articles. You have received countless warnings about your disruptive editing and your refusal to accept consensus, and if you persist in this uncollaborative behaviour I will report you to the administrators' noticeboard for appropriate action to be taken. RolandR (talk) 16:57, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

In this article only you are objecting. Some editors felt the additions were inappropriate for another article. You are deleting additions for no reason. Please stop violating Misplaced Pages policy and work for consensus. If you have specific concerns I'd be happy to listen to them.Jimjilin (talk) 14:53, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

You are in error when you say I added the Bakunin and Thomas Pickety material in several articles. I only added the material in one other article. Please don't make false accusations against other editors. Again you are in violation of Misplaced Pages policy.Jimjilin (talk) 15:08, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Your attitude and behaviour have become completely disruptive, and are by now a massive waste of time. As far as I can see, the addition of this, or very similar, material has been opposed or reverted, here or on other articles, by many editors other than myself, including AndyTheGrump, Xcuref1endx,TFD, Archivingcontext, Wikidgood, Uspzor, Dustin, YeOldeGentleman, and Neonorange. Your continued attempt to shoehorn this material into one or another article demonstrates determined refusal to listen to other editors, or to abide by consensus. Please establish a consensus before again attempting to add this material to any article; current consensus is clearly opposed. RolandR (talk) 15:47, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

As I have already pointed out at Talk:Karl Marx, the Piketty qoutation is a misrepresentation of his actual views on Marx. The paragraph following the one quoted continues:

Despite these limitations, Marx’s analysis remains relevant in several respects. First, he began with an important question (concerning the unprecedented concentration of wealth during the Industrial Revolution) and tried to answer it with the means at his disposal: economists today would do well to take inspiration from his example. Even more important, the principle of infinite accumulation that Marx proposed contains a key insight, as valid for the study of the twenty-first century as it was for the nineteenth and in some respects more worrisome than Ricardo’s principle of scarcity. If the rates of population and productivity growth are relatively low, then accumulated wealth naturally takes on considerable importance, especially if it grows to extreme proportions and becomes socially destabilizing. In other words, low growth cannot adequately counterbalance the Marxist principle of infinite accumulation: the resulting equilibrium is not as apocalyptic as the one predicted by Marx but is nevertheless quite disturbing. Accumulation ends at a finite level, but that level may be high enough to be destabilizing. In particular, the very high level of private wealth that has been attained since the 1980s and 1990s in the wealthy countries of Europe and in Japan, measured in years of national income, directly reflects the Marxian logic.

As is self-evident, Piketty's opinion of Marx's theoretical significance is considerably more positive than the paragraph being quoted by Jimjilin would suggest. This - selective use of quotations to misrepresent the actual views of the person being quoted - is what 'cherry-picking' means. If Jimjilin thinks that the views of Callinicos, Mandel or Childe are being misrepresented in this article, can he/she please tell us how? AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:21, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Marxism

Can Any one make me understand what is marxism — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.114.69.221 (talk) 20:36, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

|}

The collapsed text is a request that would turn the talk section into a general forum. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 21:28, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Marxists websites section

I had removed this section. It was not useful and did not serve any benefit to the reader in learning anything about Marxism. It seemed to have existed as a spam section for certain political sects to advertise their organization. This is a violation of WP:EL. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 21:25, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

1. http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bakunin/works/1872/la-liberte.htm
2. Pickety, Thomas Capital in the Twenty-First Century (Cambridge, MA: Belknap Press, 2014) p.10

• All unassessed articles
• C-Class politics articles
• High-importance politics articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• C-Class socialism articles
• Top-importance socialism articles
• WikiProject Socialism articles
• C-Class sociology articles
• High-importance sociology articles
• C-Class Economics articles
• High-importance Economics articles
• WikiProject Economics articles
• C-Class Soviet Union articles
• Top-importance Soviet Union articles
• WikiProject Soviet Union articles
• C-Class Russia articles
• High-importance Russia articles
• High-importance C-Class Russia articles
• C-Class Russia (science and education) articles
• Science and education in Russia task force articles
• C-Class Russia (history) articles
• History of Russia task force articles
• WikiProject Russia articles
• C-Class Philosophy articles
• High-importance Philosophy articles
• C-Class social and political philosophy articles
• High-importance social and political philosophy articles
• Social and political philosophy task force articles
• C-Class Continental philosophy articles
• High-importance Continental philosophy articles
• Continental philosophy task force articles
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics