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Revision as of 21:43, 14 April 2015

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedy deleted as a foreign language article that exists on another Wikimedia project, because... (your reason here) --84.57.174.197 (talk) 15:21, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Please help to translate the Article Flame of Peace in English speak. Thank you very much.

Unreliable resources

Before we get into an edit war let's discuss which sources people believe are reliable or not. Sorry Future Perfect at Sunrise but you created an absolute mess with this article and Aymatth2's version was far superior in terms of content and appearance. Most of the sources look acceptable for use, although I agree it needs more independent solid sources. Do the Austrian newspapers have hits on this? I can see why Future is suspicious of vanity on this, but it does look an acceptable subject. Ipigott do you see anything in German lang sources?♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:45, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Huh? You just created an absolute mess, by blanket-reverting to an old edit, following a revenge edit by a banned IP; in doing so you removed the AfD tag and several legitimate cleanup tags ("reliable sources" etc.), plus you reinserted a whole big table that was both (mostly) unsourced and/or sourced only to the organization's own sites, and ungrammatical (what is "International honors Ambassador of Peace and Place of Flame of Peace" even supposed to mean?) Please self-revert immediately. If you want to reinsert that table, then (a) do so without removing the maintenance tags elsewhere, (b) source it, and (c) correct the text so that we at least know what it's supposed to mean. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:53, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

The Meinbezirk.at source appears to be a leading Austrian news portal. Numerous reliable publications use it as a source. If you have wider concerns about reliability take to the noticeboard.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:52, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

(ec) I have tagged two more refs as unreliable: this is a low-quality local news outlet that manifests its evident lack of journalistic independence and quality control through the fact that it has copied its entire paragraph describing the society verbatim from the society's own publicity blurb or press release – including even its glaring grammar mistakes ("eine gemeinnützige und überparteiliche, sowie religionsunabhängige Vereinigung"; "Austausch für Konfliktbewältigung und Frieden-stiftender Ideen". See for other websites that do the same). Please reinsert the maintenance tag on this one. This is a self-published, non-journalistic website of some designer company, whose relation to the event is unknown (they might be a sponsor or anything), but which most definitely doesn't qualify as a "reliable source" in any way. It displays its lack of quality also through its extremely sloppy translation, leaving entire paragraphs in a state of jumbled mess of English and German fragments. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:04, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Further: This is so far the only actual source that may formally pass the WP:RS threshold, but it fails to support the claim for which you just tried to insert it as a source: i.e., that Sandor Habsburg is an "archduke" and "prince". The Weltwoche article doesn't call him that. From what we know, this title is entirely self-styled; the only other reliable source I've so far been able to check on his status from the perspective of "nobility", the Almanach de Gotha of 2008, does not describe him as such, but titles him merely "Count" (apparently because his father's marriage was morganatic). Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:08, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

(ec) Further: This Polish government website might in other circumstances count as a reliable source, but in this instance it's a source directly affiliated with the party receiving the reward in question, and as such not an independent reliable source. This is important insofar as the text reiterates the claim that the "flame" is "awarded" to people who "have earned merits for peace in the world, society, culture or the environment" ("die sich um den Frieden in der Welt, um die Gesellschaft, Kultur sowie um die Umwelt verdient machen"), a claim which, from this source, is self-serving, and which is also quite dubious, since Ms. H. has (according to her own site) "awarded" the same flame also to her own husband (13 Feb 2009), an entire nation (19 Aug 2009), and several new-born babies (8 Dec 2006, 14 Oct 2006) . Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:29, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

That's total BS Future. Almost all of the sources used currently are either government/local council/church sources or leading Austrian newspapers/portals. Official sites of local governments always meet RS. I'm one of the most experienced editors on this site, I think I know what constitutes a reliable source.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:25, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

What you are missing is that most of those "sources" are directly affiliated with parties that are either co-sponsors or recipients of the "awards" in question, and as such non-independent. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:29, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

I acknowledge that some of them are. Let's see what can be found on this anyway. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:38, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

don't think that's the same one though?♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:47, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

No, indeed, that seems to be about an entirely different, unrelated initiative. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:52, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Another issue with your current expansions, Dr. Blofeld, is that your text is now making it appear as if there was something like an annual competition, with one award ceremony per year at which "winners" of the award are presented. That doesn't seem to be the case. From what I've seen, they are essentially throwing out any number of these "awards" as they seem fit each year – essentially one for everybody vain enough to ask for it (and willing to pay an appropriate charitable amount in return, no doubt). Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:16, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Why did you claim it wasn't in the source when it says "Roberta Pinotti, il vicepresidente della Regione Veneto, Marino Zorzato e il presidente del Consiglio regionale, Clodovaldo Ruffato, al quale gli Arciduchi d’Austria, Principi di Toscana, Herta Margarete e Sandor Asburgo Lorena hanno consegnato la Fiamma della Pace. " Fiamma della Pace is its name in Italian. Look, I appreciate that you initially thought that this was a dubious COI/vanity case and should be nuked, but your edits and comments in the last few hours are really against the spirit of wikipedia. I'm trying to improve this and you keep trying to shoot me and the article down!♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:28, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

If my Italian isn't failing me dramatically, the relative pronoun al quale is grammatically singular and thus refers back only to the last in the preceding list of names, Clodovaldo Ruffato. He was the one who got his flame that evening. Pinotti was also present, and she happened to also have received that flame thing, but not on that occasion but at a separate event a few days earlier, according to the society website . Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:43, 14 April 2015 (UTC)