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The editor seems to be engaging in WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour, and trying to make WP:POINTs. I now also see their is a discussion concerning his conduct. AusLondonder (talk) 20:26, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

P.S. I accept I have made mistakes - but that is precisely because I'm a new editor. AusLondonder (talk) 20:28, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Response

• 1. On my talk page replying to you, I wrote: "Your willingness to fight over a clearly lost cause at the nomination suggests an impulse-control problem (reinforcing my suspicion that you are a new sock of a previously banned editor)" You are doing everything to confirm and nothing to dispel that initial impression. The current !vote at the AfD is presently 7-to-1 in favor of Keep (with you-the-nom being the 1), so this is a lost cause more so now (when you filed this notice) than yesterday (when I cast the 2nd Keep !vote). Regards your request that I "file a sock complaint to clear the air", as far as I know there is nothing preventing you from submitting yourself to a sock-puppet investigation. (Strike that part, as informed otherwise.)
• 2. Your accusation of a WP:3RR breach is false (not that vandalism reversals count toward 3RR anyway...and not that it matters in this case because it didn't happen).
• 3. Regards WP:Battleground, it is you who have chosen to escalate WP:ADHOM in new venues such as here and here. Prior to this, my comments were confined to my one AfD !vote and two replies to you on my TP. You will note that I have not participated further at the AfD (while you have hassled nearly every voter).
• 4. Spending a hour removing a mass of Speedy delete tags and PRODs with poor rationales generated by a new editor who brought himself to one's attention is not stalking; it's housekeeping.
• 5. As is plainly evident, Chillum closed your noticeboard query, not I. Pax 22:51, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Boomerang Topic Ban Proposal

In order to stall the flurry of inappropriate deletion nominations, incorrect tags and battleground behavior over them by this admittedly inexperienced editor, I propose that...

Reformed based upon suggestion by Bosstopher below:

The community forbids AusLondonder (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) from starting deletion, merge and move discussions for a period of thirty days. Any uninvolved administrator may, at their own discretion, block AusLondonder from editing and/or impose longer ban if he/she finds they are in violation.

Semi-oppose Preventing the editor from participating in discussions will make it more difficult for him to learn. Would be better if he was simply banned from starting deletion, merge and move discussion.Bosstopher (talk) 23:20, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Works for me. (Proposal rewritten.) Pax 00:27, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

• Usually a topic ban pertains to a subject where there is conflict. Also, CUs aren't run to clear people's name so, no, you can't propose yourself as a candidate in a SPI. And you shouldn't accuse another editor of being a sock account unless you have evidence to back up your assertion. Liz 23:22, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

I did list a duck-like indicator (account's first edit was creation of a large article with advanced formatting). I didn't go to SPI because I hadn't any hunch on who the master might be, and I don't like submitting single names. Pax 00:27, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Complainant response

When I first read the response by User:Раціональне анархіст to the issues I raised, I thought he must be having a laugh! How could someone have such a hide to fail to address the issues I raised and instead propose a ban on me is truly breathtaking. Unresolved issues: 1. Continued misleading inferences that I am sock - the editor cites my first edit as evidence (I used 'complex forms they said here and claimed during this discussion I 'created a large article with advanced formatting) - this is false. Please see my first edit here to disprove these claims

2. Acting in bad faith by continuing to falsely accuse me of being a sock, without a shred of evidence, and refusing to withdraw those claims. Suggesting I should nominate myself for investigation, and declining to put forward a single piece of evidence

3. Acting in a disruptive manner during a deletion discussion against me, by engaging in WP:PERSONAL attacks against me and making false allegations against me without a shred of evidence here and failing to assume good faith

4. Engaging in personal attacks against me on his talk page, by stating I suffer from an 'impulse-control problem'

5. Constant edit warring at Rape jihad, an article the user created (few credible sources use the term). The article absurdly lists the Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal as an example of rape jihad, as discussed at Talk:Rape jihad

6. Breaching the WP:3RR rule at Rape jihad, as discussed on the talk page.

7. Battleground behaviour at articles, talkpages and discussions relating to Islam

8. Disturbingly, writing at at Talk:Rape jihad#Proposed_title 'Britain, Nigeria, et al, aren't "in the Islamic World" (well, at least not until they're conquered)' and 'True, that. (The arguable clear intent of "rape jihad" is demographic conquest. Several hundred captured schoolgirls sold off to jihadi husbands have a thousand holy warrior babies, not a thousand babies brought up another way.)', exposing possible bias and Islamophobia. Countless other examples of aggressive and unpleasant conduct, edit warring and unacceptable behaviour are demonstrated on the talk page of Rape jihad

9. Removing speedy deletion tags, for example at Anshul sdr, now prodded and numerous other articles now deleted

10. Calling for a discussion I sought to begin regarding book notability to be closed. (I earlier stated that User:Раціональне анархіст closed it, however they only called for it to be closed)

11. At the same time as accusing me of having a 'master' and being a sock, the editor has called for me to be topic banned because I am 'inexperienced' despite the fact virtually all of my speedy deletion nominations (other than those removed my User:Раціональне анархіст) were supported by admins.

12. Arrogantly attempting to muddy the waters by proposing that I be banned from proposing articles for deletion, even though the vast majority of speedy nominations have been approved and the fact the editor is not an admin. If I were so arrogant as to make any ban suggestions, I would suggest the editor banned from articles relating to Islam

13. Referencing the WP:COMPETENCE essay towards me

AusLondonder (talk) 15:44, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Furthermore, here are some examples of articles I nominated for speedy deletion now gone:

• Prime Asia TV
• Rawhyde
• Heartland Brewery
• JADE Switzerland
• Andreas Maierhofer
• Luxoderm

From memory, at least some of these deletions were opposed by the editor in questionAusLondonder (talk) 16:09, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Replies:

1. Repeatedly bringing up a subject (the Rape jihad article) whose associated disputes (two AfDs and three ANIs over the last several months) considerably predate your new account creation is not a good idea (someone else might get the notion that you're a sock). You're simply not up-to-speed, don't know the material, haven't participated in the discussions, and haven't met the players. Twice now you've accused me of violating 3RR without evidence (and it's a charge not even the section-blanking vandals made in during the ANIs, one current ongoing).

2. You need to provide "difs" when making serious accusations, such as the aforementioned 3RR breach claim. For the purposes of your bringing your deletions in here, nobody in the gallery cares about your "good" nominations that I was not involved in (they're the definition of irrelevant); what's important are the ones I was involved in, such as these:,,,, Those are articles with PROD or Speedy tags. Any editor (except the article creator) can remove those; hell, they don't even need a reason in their edit commentary (although they are always appreciated). Your not knowing this, but jumping to drag me in here over it, supports my competence and "impulse-control" assessments, suggesting that the proposed temporary ban is appropriate.

3. I've submitted the Anshul sdr article to general AfD. Pax 18:50, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

It really is ironic that you have the brass neck to ask me to provide evidence of 'serious allegations' - you've provided no evidence for your constant allegations of sockpuppertry and WP:COI. However, the evidence for WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour and WP:3RR breaches is discussed at Talk:Rape jihad. I became aware of your conduct regarding Islam when I tried to discover what prompted your aggressive input at the deletion nomination - I then discovered your history WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour regarding articles and discussions related to Islam. I have today continued important work on the encyclopedia including speedy deletion nominations. It is entirely relevant to bring in my other speedy deletion nominations I have made given your accusations of incompetence towards me. I think it is right to raise your removal of speedy deletion tags at articles subsequently deleted, because it smells of WP:POINT. AusLondonder (talk) 19:26, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

I've just found this. Just look at the editors conduct here - more WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:UNCIVIL. Any other editor would have been banned by now. AusLondonder (talk) 19:33, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

"...I became aware of your conduct regarding Islam when I tried to discover what prompted your aggressive input at the deletion nomination..."

I'm curious: what did you find out about the other seven ten editors who likewise voted to keep the article (that being all of the editors who've cast votes at the AfD you proposed)? Pax 20:58, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

May 5: Speaking of brass, what on earth prompted you to unload this vitrol upon another editor, GuzzyG, at your deletion nom? He was the ninth Keep !voter (versus only you) in your nom, absolutely a lost cause at that point. So, more confirmation of battleground/competence/impulse-control issues in the inability to recognize a lack of equine vital signs. Pax 01:14, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

What prompted it, you ask? Didn't you read his malicious accusation against me? Am I expected to take it but not give it? Indeed he was a 'voter', failing to actually discuss the matter and simply casting a vote. 'So, more confirmation of battleground/competence/impulse-control issues in the inability to recognize (sic) a lack of equine vital signs. Wrong on every count. Your battleground behaviour regarding Islam is illustrated above. I've got nothing else to say on that. Impulse control? Don't make me laugh? Equine vital signs crap? I know you have some weird obsession with that essay, but I have given up, so I don't quite know what your point is. I didn't realise the standard book review counted as a published source, but I do now. Humility and accepting a mistake - do you ever do that? Competence - my contributions say otherwise. AusLondonder (talk) 01:23, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

You were wrong about the 3RR, wrong about who closed the noticeboard query, wrong in assuming that the removal of improper-rationale speedy tags represents "spurious" wiki-stalking, wrong about everything regarding the Rape jihad article, wrong to nominate The Myth of Islamic Tolerance for deletion, and wrong to accuse another editor of an undue fixation with Islam when it's apparent your fixation is not at least equal if not greater (given that several of your declined PROD/speedy tags involved other Islam-related books). Quite simply put, you do have obvious competence problems, and lack the ability to cool your jets and back down from lost causes. Pax 03:10, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

You are having a great deal of trouble understanding this, I know. But I did back down. What more do you want? Blood? However, I was right about WP:3RR at Rape jihad. It is there in black and white on the talkpage. I was right in suggesting you encouraging closing of the noticeboard query, as I made quite clear. I was right in nominating articles for speedy deletion (at least one article you removed the tag from where speedily deleted later). Your conduct at Rape jihad has been a textbook case of WP:BATTLEGROUND. AusLondonder (talk) 03:38, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

No you aren't right about 3RR because you either don't really understand what that policy is or you can't count. You have failed to provide necessary difs proving your case, and you can't. What's going to happen now: you'll head off to that article's history to recheck your count, then visit the 3RR policy page to bone up, and realize with a sinking feeling that you were wrong. Pax 05:01, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Additional note

Onlookers may wish to examine a concurrent ANI for additional examples of the AusLondonder's combative, escalatory approach to discussion. Pax 05:13, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Mizzou Arena (3rd round)

The issue with the Mizzou Arena article has already been brought up twice before, and the editor who has saw fit to OWN the page has once again started the dispute. Basically the arena was named for a Wal-Mart heir's daughter just before it opened, it opened under the daughter's name, but then said daughter's school discovered she was using her roommate to commit academic dishonesty and the school and Wal-Mart heir who were rightfully embarrassed quickly pulled her name off the building and went with the neutral Mizzou Arena title it has today; this has all been well-sourced in the article and many, many other sources outside.

However, Eodcarl (talk · contribs) has been on a long crusade to remove all mentions of the arena naming, no matter how much article editors try to minimize it. The editor's entire history since December 2013 has been devoted to removing the arena's naming history against all consensus. I thought it was settled the first time, but they came back in July of last year to continue to remove it. Again, we established consensus and thought they moved on. Then at the end of February when nobody was really paying attention to the article, they removed it anew. I came upon it last night upon checking my article history, re-added the sourced information and warned the user. They came back on my talk page to call me a bully and call the sourced info 'libelous', and then asserted OWN by removing the team's 2014 record they edited in through the 2014-15 Mizzou basketball season, as if they are the only one who can edit information on the article; their response was to call me a 'facist'. I ask for some kind of action to be taken against Edocarl, as it's obvious trying to come to some kind of consensus with them would be fruitless. Nate • (chatter) 03:33, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

24-hour block levied. If he resumes, report for a long or indefinite block. Nyttend (talk) 03:59, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Has this been discussed at WP:BLPN? At first glance, it looks like the blocked user might be correct, although unaware of how they should proceed. The disputed text appears to be a classic misuse of an article to permanently record stupid behavior by a living person in a way that is totally unrelated to the content of Mizzou Arena. At BLPN I would argue that if the event (someone cheating at school) is notable, there should be an article on the incident. Failing that, and assuming there is no ongoing discussion in reliable sources, all mention of the living person's problems should be removed from the article about a building. Johnuniq (talk) 07:56, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Seeing as the building's history is deemed noteworthy and this incident is the explanation for an important part of that history (name change), I don't see how one could avoid some mention.-- Elmidae (talk) 17:51, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

The detail in the article at present is startling and seems WP:UNDUE. It would be quite enough to say that the stadium was to be named after the donors' daughter but they renounced naming rights following an unrelated scandal, and even that might be - as Johnuniq points out - more than enough. NebY (talk) 18:29, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

They don't seem to be contesting the naming detail (which with the cheating scandal and the revocation of naming rights, is related; there's only so much reducing you can do when the two are intertwined but if you want to give it a shot I won't be in the way at all), but that they played under the first name for three home games, which were mainly the usual early season college basketball cannon fodder opponents, but it still was under the original name for those games until Mizzou announced the termination of the deal. Seeing as in the past they were needling editors on articles related to the Kansas Jayhawks with negative details about that team's history, this seems to be a Tigers fan who doesn't like that we aren't going to be able to make Mizzou look golden at all times but we also have to be balanced. Also, since this is an arena and not a person, I felt BLPN would be an awkward venue. Nate • (chatter) 00:36, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I've done that. The wrongdoing led to the stadium renaming but the naming didn't play a part in the wrongdoing, so they were hardly intertwined. The material does fall within the scope of WP:BLPN (WP:BLP begins "Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Misplaced Pages page." - emphases in the original) and Johnuniq's comments above have merit, so we may still need to discuss it there. NebY (talk) 08:21, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your edit at the article which I am watching. I repeat that if anyone wants to list the faults of the doner's daughter, they should do so in a separate article on that incident. Johnuniq (talk) 09:14, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)As for team partisanship, I've left the section Mizzou Arena#Men's basketball record at Mizzou Arena in place but its inclusion is surprising. Such sections aren't part of the basic structure recommended at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Event Venues/Sports task force#Structure and I could only find one such table in Category:Basketball venues in Missouri and Template:Southeastern Conference basketball venue navbox. NebY (talk) 09:22, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I made a similar point, as did others, for a long time. The editor who got me blocked claimed there was consensus to give the Paige Sports Arena name prominent first billing at the top of the page, when no such consensus ever happened. It was nothing more than editors who liked the idea of highlighting embarrassment for Mizzou. It was certainly embarrassing, but it is a footnote. I never removed all mention of the naming controversy; Like you said, I always thought it appropriate to include it in the article, just not as a redirect and IN BOLD prominence at the top of the article. It has been over 10 years since the arena opened, and the original name is already an obscure footnote, and Misplaced Pages should treat it that way. Eodcarl (talk) 13:06, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Quick point on the side. You should pay attention to the text above the save button "By clicking the "Save page" button, you agree to the Terms of Use and you irrevocably agree to release your contribution under the CC BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL with the understanding that a hyperlink or URL is sufficient for CC BY-SA 3.0 attribution." You can't revoke permission for other editors to work/edit/delete/use it since, by hitting save, you have irrevocably released it. Blackmane (talk) 02:16, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't really care about minor points like that. It is this sort of Pharasetical stuff that makes Misplaced Pages so irrelevant. This incident has convinced me to leave Misplaced Pages. The page in question is still a farce because of your point of view. I'll leave it to you and the others who make Misplaced Pages a joke. Eodcarl (talk) 03:48, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

List of Presidents of Croatia, again

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive875#List_of_Presidents_of_Croatia. Again.

Will any admin object if I implement the measures I suggested earlier? Nothing has changed and Director is still engaging in a clear and unambiguous WP:OWN violation.

--Joy (talk) 09:45, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

A user made an edit, two other users opposed that edit and reverted him. There were two reverts. There is no OWN. The only thing that's "clear and unambiguous" is that you're trying to push a POV over there. Joy, if you have a content issue to discuss, take that to the talkpage. This is no way to voice grievances about the article's state, its disruptive and frankly suspect (not to mention you didn't even notify me).

For the record, Joy is heavily involved over at the article, his general position is opposed and and he's (rather transparently) trying to push a topic ban on me in order to have his way against clear consensus.

My summary: a while ago user Timbouctou attempted to push certain changes, but was opposed by participants on the talkpage. As a kind of "consolation prize" he posted a POV tag. After weeks of no discussion, the tag was removed. Yesterday Timbouctou re-introduced it, and I reverted him twice and posted a thread, wherein another user (Tuvixer) expressed opposition to the tag. There is no OWN here. There isn't even an edit-war, and I have no intention of entering one. But I personally think Timbouctou doesn't give a damn he has no consensus and is opposed on the talkpage - he'll probably re-introduce his unwarranted consolation tag and edit-war for his edits in general. At that point I don't think there's much more I can do besides post a thread here myself and lay out what I believe is a pattern of disruption exhibited by the user over the past several weeks.

As regards Joy, frankly I feel he might justifiably get BOOMERANGED for trying to push his POV through successive disruptive ANI reports, rather than, say, reporting Timbouctou (given how many edit wars the guy was in only in the past week). He agrees with Timbouctou, though, you see... -- Director (talk) 10:56, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Can somebody tell us what this freaking dispute is actually about? I would like both Timbouctou and Director to summarize, in exactly two brief and neutral sentences each, what their own position is and what they think the other side's position is. "Director feels that the article should… Timbouctou feels the article should…". Nothing more, no comments, no ridicule, no accusations, no justifications, no reasons. I will support a topic ban for either party, should they fail to provide this simple summary. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:38, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

I feel the article should pretty much stay as it is, as it has been basically since its inception. I can't say what Timbouctou wants to do at the moment, but he started with demands to delete more than half the article (basically rendering it pointless) on grounds that he's really really sure the constitutional heads of state weren't heads of state - if they served that function during the Yugoslav period. He has very interesting personal views about what is or is not a "head of state". Personal views contradicted by scholarly sources. His motion would also necessitate the creation of about two or three additional, completely pointless articles.. and all for the same basic office of the same exact country (mind you, the current Croatian republic is defined, in the preamble of its constitution, as being the exact same country as was part of the Yugoslav federation).

Its a politics thing, Future.. A right-wing candidate just recently became president in Croatia, and its not fitting to have good solid Croatian! heads of state be sullied by the presence of yugocommunist traitors in the same list! As if the Presidents of the Presidency of Croatia have anything to do with the Presidents of Croatia!... -- Director (talk) 11:53, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

OK, Director, you failed my easy little test, so yes, I will support a topic ban for you. Let's see if Timbouctou fares any better. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:58, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Brilliant method, @Future. Truly thou art the Solomon of the Internets :). Only one who can say "how he feels" without explaining why he "feels" is the just party! (reasons are for idiots).

Except I'm a busy man, at work, glancing over your post, and didn't read the last few words of the Socratic exercise you devised. Instead I stupidly made the effort of replying to your request, as opposed to simply ignoring you - and/or pointing out that the content itself has no real relevance to this ANI thread. I sincerely hope you're joking. I've seen arbitrary, but this would be a new low.

Seriously, though, I have no idea why the content dispute is being discussed here. Its not just between me and Timbouctou.. there are many participants with differing points of view - on the talkpage. Is this an RfC...?? -- Director (talk) 12:37, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment from completely uninvolved editor: If the title of the article is List of Presidents of Croatia, then the article should begin with Franjo Tuđman and exclude anything before that, since he was the first President of Croatia. If someone wants to re-title (move) the article to List of Croatian heads of state, then that's another matter entirely. Alternatively, there could be two articles, one that lists all past Croatian heads of state, and one that lists only Presidents. Softlavender (talk) 12:10, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

@Softlavender: its not that simple, or we wouldn't even have a dispute. On a basic level, a "president" is defined by the OED as "the elected head of a republican state", which is a definition all these people fit. Moreover, they were all formally titled "President" ('of the Presidium', 'of the Presidency').

More importantly: every single Prime Minister and Presidents list article for every one of the six (ex-)Yugoslav republics lists all republican heads of state (presidents) in this manner, and has for years and years, since its creation. This is because they all had the same republican history, and the alternative would logically necessitate the creation of at least two additional articles for each of the states, each with just a couple of entries. Its pointless.

The trouble with an article titled List of Croatian heads of state is that there were many, many kings of Croatia. -- Director (talk) 12:40, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

You are conflating "elected head of state of a republican state" with "President". Per the OED, all Presidents are elected heads of state of a republican state, but not all elected heads of state of republican states are presidents. Case closed. If you want to include the other heads of state, figure out a way to re-title the article, such as List of elected Croatian heads of state. WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is not a valid argument. Softlavender (talk) 13:03, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Can we please not delve into an in-depth debate over the content here? This belongs on the article talkpage. If this trivial editorial decision is in dispute, why hasn't there simply been an RfC? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:15, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, I totally agree, Fut.Perf. But it's apparently the second thread on this article in two months. Suggest they all be reprimanded and told to solve content disputes via WP:RfC(s) or other WP:DR, and keep this off of ANI. Alternatively, since Director seems at a glance to be a significant source of the problem, suggest possibly topic-banning him/her from all articles on Croatian heads of state, as suggested in the former ANI. Softlavender (talk) 13:33, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

There hasn't been progress at resolving the content issue, rather only a deterioration (removal of valid cleanup tags), and you already observed the root cause - this is almost too ridiculous to actually be a content dispute. It's a behavioral problem, and it has to be addressed with precise and fair administrative sanctions. --Joy (talk) 14:50, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

There was a proposal - it was rejected. Just because something isn't resolved to your satisfaction - doesn't mean it isn't "resolved". Your dissatisfaction with the resolution is further no justification for the nonsense tag staying there in perpetuity. The rationale behind it is patently ridiculous and rejected on the talkpage.

And yes, I agree that repeatedly attempting to use this board to resolve your content disputes - is a behavioral problem. It must be very comfortable WP:GAMING the system in this manner - just ignore discussion when it isn't going your way, and post cockamamie reports over and over again. -- Director (talk) 15:17, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment from a disgruntled former editor: We're talking about Croatia. I mean, Croatia. Why is everyone getting worked up about Croatia? INSANO! Robtransit archdurbar (talk) 12:24, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

By the way, can someone please block Robtransit archdurbar as a troll? Softlavender (talk) 13:03, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Done. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:13, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

• #1 The user proposes changes.
• #2 Four users end up opposing him, myself included.
• #3 In spite of having no consensus - he edit-wars to push his edits in.
• #4 After a month of no discussion, his tag is removed.
• #5 He restores his tag (and other edits!) twice, and is opposed once again by two users on the talkpage.
• #6 I get reported by Joy, who openly supports the other guy's position, in an (extremely transparent) attempt to shift the consensus. I get on report - rather than the guy pushing his edits by revert-warring, against consensus (he just reverted for the third time; does he give a damn others disagree with his edit? - not on your life). Yeah, I get on report. For reverting the guy twice. Under a stupid, arbitrary rationale of "OWN" - in spite of my position being shared by three other participants, and being the status quo of virtually ten years both there and on all twelve comparable articles! Why is it OWN? Because its very convenient, my having written most of the article - and for no other reason at all: not a single argument or elaboration was posted for the rationale at any point. I can't see a violation of any policy here.
• Finally, #7 - instead of ignoring this farce of a thread for the transparent attempt at "strategizing" that it is, my respect for the participants leads me to make the mistake of actually investing time and effort into responding, thus making myself the "cause of the problem at a glance".

Do what you will, guys. Topic ban me for twice restoring the consensus version of an article against right-wing nationalist POV-pushing, by a user who by rights should be on report here instead of me, and has no qualms shattering Misplaced Pages's coverage of a topic into absurd little fragments for the sake of a political agenda. I will appeal any sanctions - on grounds of not having done anything. As regards the article, that's simply the best way to list those officeholders, which is why its present everywhere in all of the twelve comparable articles. Anyone who doesn't want to split it into three or four non-WP:NOTABLE stubs, listing maybe two people(?) - should agree. Now I think I'll stop playing into Joy's hands. -- Director (talk) 15:17, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment (non admin observation) This is the second section on this page that Timbouctou is involved with. The other is Privatization in Croatia where they got involved in a massive edit war. AlbinoFerret 15:41, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

If you check the user's contributions, you'll find he was active in revert wars on about a half-dozen articles just in the past week, pushing various Croatian-nationalist edits. -- Director (talk) 16:10, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

I guess I've just grown too old to tolerate utter imbeciles who come here with the express purpose of political soapboxing and trolling around talk pages. Direktor's editing pattern shows clear signs of pyschopathic behaviour and User:Tuvixer has serious WP:COMPETENCE issues. I guess I would need to spend 16 hours of my time collecting evidence to prove that to admins who earned their stripes editing articles on Pokemon, but guess what - I value my time too much for that crap. Timbouctou (talk) 16:13, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

God knows what we might find if somebody took to time to check your "contributions". Also, I don't suppose you have an example of a "Croatian-nationalist" edit I made, do you? Timbouctou (talk) 16:15, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Its not like my contribs are hidden somehow, feel free to have a look.. not much to see, I'm afraid.. just created a new article a day or so ago, nothing much else. In regards to Croatian right-wing agenda-pushing, it'd be harder to find exceptions than examples. And your "getting too old"? I'm sorry to say we all are, Timbouctou. But don't try to paint your extreme incivility and apparent annoyance with everyone on this project as something "new".

Also - this is ANI, I hope at least here you'll try to make an effort not to modify or move around other users' posts. -- Director (talk) 16:31, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

So I guess we'll be seeing no examples of my alleged "Croatian-nationalist" edits from you then? You'll just resort to slanderous accusations? Yeah, this is ANI - the place which spent years buying your bullshit, never questioning how is it that you seem to have issues with someone at least once a week. A new admin born every day I guess. Timbouctou (talk) 16:43, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Right. At this point, the way I see it, it is little use trying to figure out who is originally to blame for this impasse – it seems pretty clear to me that there is no objective "right" or "wrong" on this matter (whether or not one wishes to list both sets of politicians on a single page or not is a matter of legitimate editorial discretion, and whether the one set were "presidents" and in which sense is a matter that could be easily explained and hedged appropriately in the text, if needed. There are clearly reasonable arguments to be made on both sides.) What is abundantly clear though is that neither of the two main parties involved is currently willing to work reasonably and constructively with the other. In this situation of dispute resolution breakdown, what we need is to get both parties off the scene. Could some uninvolved admin colleague please do the obvious thing and apply WP:ARBMAC? (I would do it, as being completely uninvolved in matters of Croation history, but I happen to have had disputes with Director on some other unrelated topics not too long ago, so I'd rather not be the one to act here.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:46, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

While this discussion has been going on, a new round of edit warring has taken place. I am asking for page protection while we wait. AlbinoFerret 17:34, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

I have fully protected the page for three days. --kelapstick 17:45, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Mark: whether his position represents a legitimate point of view or not, its been discussed and shown to lack support. But its not his position that causes the problem - its his disruption in pursuit of it. His edit-warring against status quo and consensus. I am perfectly willing to discuss with Timbouctou (in fact I posted a thread), the problem is he doesn't want to discuss - and quite logically. He doesn't say what he needs "verified" - because there is nothing to verify. The matter is one of editorial discretion - and his position was rejected on the talkpage: four users oppose it. His argument (about heads of state supposedly needing to be 'sovereign' before they can be called such) is both unsourced and debunked with sources. He. Has. Nothing. Which is why he doesn't discuss, just provoke with typical disdain. And I can not agree that anyone besides him should be sanctioned for his disruption.

Its your decision guys, but I will appeal any sanctions to ARBCOM. Like I said - I reverted someone twice, restoring the consensus status quo version, and disagreed with him on the talkpage. I don't see myself as having done anything warranting bans of any sort.

P.s. I consider you quite uninvolved, FPaS.. I don't even remember what disputes you're referring to. Do what you feel is best. -- Director (talk) 17:44, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't suppose you can name the "four users" who "reject my position", can you? And I don't suppose you have actual diffs for anything you claim, do you? And I suppose you conveniently fail to register an admin reported you (not me) for owning the article in question? Interesting how these details always somehow slip your mind whenever posting at ANI, isn't it. The amount of wikilawering you use to disguise an editing career that has been nothing but disruptive is mind-numbing. And the fact that there are always suckers at ANI willing to buy your shit is the most depressing thing about this project. Timbouctou (talk) 18:11, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Whats depressing, is after edit warring on one article, and getting involved in an edit war on this one, while this discussion was ongoing YOU edit warred again. Breaking the WP:3RR rule . Its time to look at your own behaviour and not at others. No matter what anyone else did, you acted in a way that is unacceptable. Pointing a finger at others is not a defence. AlbinoFerret 18:28, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

I suggest forwarding that to WP:ANEW. I would do it myself, but it probably makes more sense for the editor that looked in to it do the filing. It's clear that a "cooling off" period is needed here, for at least Timbouctou. --IJBall (talk) 18:38, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Timbouctou is pointing fingers at others because he is trying to hide what he has done, and as you said, he has broken the 3RR. He has engaged in a edit war and ha ignored the talk page. He has started all of this and the page is protected because of his edits and unwillingness to stop the edit war and engage in a constructive debate. He has done all of that because he has no consensus and he has no valid arguments to back his position. In three days we will again see a edit war because without arguments and a consensus that is all what timbouctou has to push his political or better to say insane agenda. Everyone can see that he is mean and insults other users, he calls other users trolls but we all can see who the actual troll is. I don't have to say his name. --Tuvixer (talk) 18:42, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

IJBall there is already a section he is involved with on WP:ANEW. What I'm thinking is perhaps a 6 month topic ban broadly defined. AlbinoFerret 18:44, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

I think the problem there is that the filing against Timbouctou was simply "appended" on to a pre-existing filling, rather than being put in as a separate report. As a result, both ANEW filings seem to have gotten lost in the shuffle there, as the Admins probably don't want to tackle that wall of text. I think I'd suggest breaking the Timbouctou report out into a separate entry... --IJBall (talk) 20:10, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

The point of view that advocates an wholly unreferenced list is not actually an argument that should be entertained as reasonable because it's against a core Misplaced Pages policy of verifiability. This has been fairly clearly articulated at the talk page already, but it has been completely drowned out by the surrounding flamewar. It's rather similar to this discussion - Director grew a forest of text and now most people can no longer see the trees. It had the effect of dissuading most people from participating, and making Timbouctou start one of his revert binges. Make it stop... --Joy (talk) 18:47, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

"Wholly unrefrenced list" - now that's manipulation. Nobody (you and Timbouctou included!) ever challenged the basic fact that these people served in those roles as laid out - because if that were the case sources can be found instantly for each of them, and for the fact that their offices were those of the head of state. The only thing that's been challenged is placing them in the same article - which is fundamentally a matter of editor discretion, and not sources. Asking for sources over and over again and tagging the article for no reason - is disruptive, and nothing more than a red herring. -- Director (talk) 03:19, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

WP:IDHT... --Joy (talk) 06:23, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

On the contrary, its you who's not listening.. and I think that's pretty obvious. You: "I want sources". Me: "This is editor discretion, it doesn't have anything to do with sources". You: "I want sources! You have no sources!".

And I think its pretty clear from all the reports and edit-warring going on even at this time - that Timbouctou doesn't need anyone's help to go an a binge. His attitude of dismissive disdain and condescension is standard for him. -- Director (talk) 06:56, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Article titles have to be based on facts. You can't waive that requirement by asserting some magic of editorial discretion. If someone wasn't called a President of Croatia, they shouldn't appear on the list of Presidents of Croatia. This would be a trivial WP:COMPETENCE issue if it wasn't accompanied with 4 years of bullheadedness (). --Joy (talk) 07:21, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not going to respond, I'm only going to quote Future from his post just above: "whether or not one wishes to list both sets of politicians on a single page or not is a matter of legitimate editorial discretion, and whether the one set were 'presidents' and in which sense is a matter that could be easily explained and hedged appropriately in the text, if needed". A position shared by participants on the talkpage. All this, all your gaming the system and that troll's edit-warring - is just a hissy fit that you didn't get your own way.

And the article is most certainly based on facts. It has been, in this form, for nigh on ten years. All those people are listed in precisely the function they had. As for the title - propose an RM and seek consensus! But up to this point, neither you nor Timbouctou ever challenged the title: because the point is to push a right-wing political agenda and remove the Yugoslav-era officials from the same list - not any concerns over accuracy. -- Director (talk) 08:14, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, do you really agree with Director on this content matter? That it someone who wasn't ever referred to as the President of Croatia, and whose characteristics didn't match those who were, can freely appear in the list of Presidents of Croatia? --Joy (talk) 16:25, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Oh will you stop trying to mislead already?! Is bold-faced deception all you've got on this? Could you once try to frame this issue in honest terms?

Anyway, I'll take your inquiry alone as a concession that this is indeed a matter for user consensus - otherwise why ask around? To that end, if you need users disagreeing with you, you can find enough of them on the talkpage. I think it should be pretty clear by this point that this thread is just a manipulative attempt to solve a content dispute by WP:GAMING the system. In a month or so we'll see another.. -- Director (talk) 17:53, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Don't flatter yourself. I was simply curious to see whether you actually managed to convince a neutral person that your content argument has merit. The same neutral person who already agreed that your behavior in presenting said argument was in sufficient violation of policies that you should be sanctioned. --Joy (talk) 20:41, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

• Observation: Director and Timbouctou engaged in an astonishing 102-round edit war on February 17, all within 5 hours, which must be a world record. And nobody stopped them, talk-page warned them, or blocked them. Something is broken on how that page is being handled, and yes administrative oversight and WP:ARBMAC need to be enforced, in addition to probably removing one or more of the main combatants from the field. Softlavender (talk) 03:13, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

It was a stupid thing to do, I lost my temper there, and I apologized profusely. Markedly - Timbouctou (the party introducing new edits against talkpage consensus) did not at any point condescend to even admit he did something wrong. And, as I promised, I did not revert war again - nor will I (while he just broke 3RR again). The matter was up in April, and I don't think anyone should be sanctioned for it now. -- Director (talk) 03:23, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Hahahaha, I'm just infinitely amused with Director's bullshit artistry. It's amazing how none of the admins ever bothers to take a look at what actual discussions with Director look like, how belittling and insulting his posts routinely are, the scope of his WP:OWN issues are, the years he has spent abusing the project, etc. There must be a userbox for that somewhere lol. Has it ever occurred to the geniuses at ANI that revert-wars happen precisely because of the complete uselessness of reporting anything at ANI? Timbouctou (talk) 07:35, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Timbouctou, edit wars get reported at WP:AN3, not ANI. It's a simple quick process, and gets immediate and guaranteed results. Softlavender (talk) 08:07, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Balkan editwars often get results at AN3. Certainly not guaranteed; it depends on the topic and on support from the editwarrior's allies &c. bobrayner (talk) 11:50, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Is this () a constructive discussion? As I said, when the protection ends timbouctou will again engage in a edit-war. And again, as many times before, break the 3RR. Please, you have to stop him. You all can see his attitude and what kind of language he uses. Nothing can be achieved with him, he only attacks and bullies other users and that is all. It is horrible. Tnx. --Tuvixer (talk) 14:30, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

The amount of venom between both of the main parties here is so great I am quite convinced now we need a topic ban for both, and I was just about to impose one myself (given that the party I thought I might be seen as "involved" with said that he himself didn't consider me to be), but I'm just not quite sure what the exact scope of the topic ban should be. Everything related to Croatia, just the issue of Croatian officeholders, or something in between? Any ideas?

In the meantime, I warn both participants that they are definitely going to end up topic-banned from the specific article and dispute in question, and should therefore stop fighting over it immediately, both on that talkpage and here, at the risk of getting blocked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:52, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

At least or Timbouctou, I would recommend Croatia topics since this is the second article dealing with Croatia he has edit warred in and the Privatization in Croatia section on this page is still open. AlbinoFerret 23:09, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Croatia in general is too wide and would be unnecessarily punitive. I previously proposed a topic ban on Croatian heads of state, but was ignored. Croatian politics seems like an appropriate compromise. I'd support that for Director because his behavior is the root cause of this mess; I'm not sure I support a broad topic ban for the latter two at this point because I haven't reviewed all the other evidence yet. I do support an 1RR for all three in the topic area. --Joy (talk) 20:52, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

My behavior is not the root cause of this mess, the root cause is Timbouctou's (and your own) refusal to accept the rejection of your proposed changes by talkpage consensus. You've made that clear yourself in this very thread (by claiming opposition to you "isn't a legitimate position"). And since I still haven't really been told even what I've done - I will appeal any topic bans to ARBCOM as possible (and I think obvious) abuse of ARBMAC discretion. I dare say I've written extensively on that topic and should not be excluded from it unless actually necessary. An IBAN, on the other hand (as I said below), is something I'd probably do myself..

I will also repeat that topic bans seem only to be under consideration due to their proposal by a heavily involved and biased party - Joy, and that because they fit his agenda in terms of the content dispute. -- Director (talk) 05:10, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Will you PLEASE stop casting aspersions on me? There absolutely was no talk page consensus; your incessant flaming and pretending policy-based arguments against your POV don't exist doesn't count as consensus by any stretch of imagination. The only agenda I'm promoting at this point is stopping your senseless tirades, which is so obviously in the best interest of the English Misplaced Pages when pretty much everyone else has stopped paying attention to this discussion as it is so annoyingly repetitive. --Joy (talk) 16:21, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree, you were the one proposing changes, and "there absolutely was no talk page consensus"... but hey.. maybe if you can ban some people - you might get that to change. Neat idea. Regardless of whether your "policy-based" arguments are such or not (and they're not) - they had no consensus. Moreover, the entire mess on this thread is entirely of your own making, so don't try to blame me somehow. It was your decision to pester the community repeatedly for assistance in pushing changes you prefer, and that is absolutely what this is about: you're a participant in a content dispute, pushing for a ban against a party you disagree with. There is no concrete evidence, there isn't even a coherent argument for OWN or anything of the sort, there's just this vague whiiiine about how you're personally frustrated and don't want to "deal" and all that.. "oh please make him go away", etc.

The next guy who steps up against your asinine idea to split that place apart will no doubt annoy you as well, and may find himself defending against your dishonest accusations. And why not - his position would be "illegitimate" and therefore disruptive. Right?

But I can see you're impatient to finally get your ban ("everyone has stopped paying attention!"), so I'll leave you to it. Oh and thanks for speaking against my getting banned for no reason from ALL Croatia topics, that's real generous of you. -- Director (talk) 20:40, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

When there's "venom between two users" (and I don't dispute that there is) - isn't an WP:IBAN the solution? Rather than a topic ban? The "venom" is hardly topic-specific, the tban only seems to be discussed here due to Joy's preference in the content dispute. And, in actual fact, Timbouctou and myself were interaction-banned in the past - with good effect.. its just that it expired, unfortunately. -- Director (talk) 04:12, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Scalhotrod --Outing efforts

Scalhotrod and I don't get along, but this goes well beyond what's acceptable. Earlier today, due to a glitch involving the incognito browsing function on the tablet I was using, a single edit I made at Commons appeared under an IP address. Although I corrected the edit signatures immediately, Scalhotrod later posted an accusation of sockpuppetry, associating me with the IP address, which, since I'd acknowledged the edit, just reeks of bad faith. He's lately made talk page posts summarizing what he thinks he's figured out about my identity and personal info (eg, , which have no legitimate purpose, and he's also made strange posts insinuating that editors who associate with me are likely to be blocked . Some of these seem to be laughably crude attempts at chilling discussion, but gratuitously identifying an editor's IP address is reprehensible, given the tracing tools that are out there -- some giving rather pinpoint information via Google Maps (so I'm not linking to Scalhotrod's post, to avoid republishing the information, but it's easy enough to find in his global contributions.) This is serious misconduct, deserving a sanction with teeth. There's no excuse for doing something like this to spite one's opponent in a content dispute. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 23:33, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

• Uninvolved editor comments: The possibility of having your real life identity outed is worrisome, but I just don't see how this incident equates Scalhotrod outing you. Stating "From statements he's made in the past, he lives in the UK and is an older gentleman since he talks about his grandchildren. I've wondered if he is of Indian descent given some of the articles he works on" isn't outing -- especially since part of what he said was gleaned from information you provided. The rest is just noting editing habits. As far as the IP address: you made the mistake of editing with your IP address exposed. The tools to identify the IP are provided on the editor's contributions page, so looking up the IP isn't a violation. I honestly don't see a violation or an outing attempt, Hullaballoo Wolfowitz. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 23:52, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

But it certainly isnt a behavioral standard we should condone, or which is in line with the policy of focusing on the content not on the editor. Taking advantage of an ditors mistake in that way at least runs afoul of WP:DICK.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 23:54, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, yes, there is that, Maunus. I just don't see how this is quite as egregious or drastically horrible as the filer seems to believe. But, yes, it's not okay to take advantage of an editor's mistake. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 00:54, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Until you've been outed, you cannot appreciate the damage that this can do to an individual. Dancing around the outskirts of the policy is not acceptable, and if Scalhotrod can't restrain himself on this, he should be blocked. Nothing he can say can excuse a veiled attempt to out another editor, he is compiling information and opining on who BBW may or may not be. GregJackP Boomer! 03:12, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, when you put it that way, I guess there is a possibility that more is going on. That said, you seem to be making a judgement/assumption that may or may not be true. Only Scalhotrod knows for sure and we've only heard one side of the story. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 04:20, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Then you block him until you hear his side, but you do not play around with someone's real life identity. I was outed and lost my job over it. It changed my entire life, and it is not something that should happen to anyone else. This isn't a situation where you take any chances on what his motivations are. You block him, and he can explain how it is not outing in his unblock request. GregJackP Boomer! 05:02, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Since the second diff is a comment to me by Scalhotrod, I think I should comment: Scalhotrod simply shouldn't be discussing these matters at all, unless he believes it is strongly relevant to Hullaballoo Wolfowitz editing, and then do it on an appropriate noticeboard or the like, while closely following our behavioral policies and guidelines. Granted, I work with COI-problems a great deal, which I believe requires an extremely careful avoidance of WP:OUTING violations. --Ronz (talk) 00:10, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - For the record, from my perspective I think that I get along just fine with HW. Generally I consider them a conscientious Editor that makes a lot of valid edits in their perceived role as a "watchdog" or "gatekeeper" of a great many BLP articles. And I mean that in a positive light, HW's steadfastness is something that I respect about them. That said, while I make the effort to WP:AGF about any Editor's efforts, in light of my experiences and various interactions on WP I do not take some things for granted. Thus, I tagged an IP User page with my concern about Socking. Sock-puppetry is also a very serious issue. Again, experience has shown me that new as well as seasoned Users who I had no reason to believe would Sock, have done so. And as has been mentioned already, I have only commented about information that was revealed by HW.

With regard to my linked comments above about HW, this is coming from a User who likes to refer to me by my first name for whatever reason such as here (same User page mentioned above) and here (HW's own Talk page). It's always used in a somewhat odd context, but I get the impression that HW gets some vicarious thrill from announcing to all of WP that they dug far enough back into my User page history to see that I had it posted there. I took it down quite some time ago because almost no one called me by it, it was always "Scal" or "hotrod" or "rod" etc. I've considered just posting my identity as many others do, but it would seem that the temptation to misuse that information is too great for some. In as much as I do not wish to be outed any more than I already have, I have no interest in doing so to anyone else. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 15:40, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Don't play the ingenue, Scalhotrod. You didn't have any legitimate concern with sockpuppetry. You didn't post until after I'd acknowledged the edits, and put my signature in place wherever I could. You only knew I was responsible for the edit because I'd acknowledged it. And rather than admitting your bad behavior, you're doubling down on it, making up a story about me digging back into your user page history, when you certainly know perfectly well that you used to sign that name to your talk page posts regularly. There was no justification for your actions. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 02:51, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

You know what, after I made this comment on Sue Rangell's Talk page in July of last year and then got called on it, I never in my wildest dreams would have imagined that it would come to fruition, but 4 months later it did. After that, I became convinced that anyone can become a Sockmaster. As much as I respect your overall editing efforts, you've demonstrated that you are capable of spiteful and vindictive behavior as well as making your arguments personally directed. In other words, I don't feel I can trust you to just leave well enough alone so I have to be on my guard around you. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 05:41, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

You can huff and puff all you want, but it doesn't disguise the fact that you're hiding from the simple fact that you went out of your way to post a phont sockpuppetry charge without any reasonable cause. And you did this to harass an editor with whom you're engaged in a content dispute. Talk about spiteful and vindictive. . . . The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 10:47, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring over Martin Garrix articles

I don't know where to turn because the problem I am seeing is a little bit of this and that. There are violations of WP:MULTIPLE, a lot of edit warring, and likely a problem of conflict of interest. So rather than choosing SPI or ANEW or COIN I am bring the problem here:

Timothe8872 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Timothe8872 appeared last December to work solely on articles related to the young Dutch DJ Martin Garrix. No other topic interests him, so that makes Timothe8872 a single-purpose account. SPAs are often suspected of WP:COI, fairly or unfairly, and it appears that this case may have such a problem, since Timothe8872 continually adds unreferenced text about future works by Martin Garrix, and even unreleased tracks. (Unreleased tracks should not be of any concern to Misplaced Pages unless they have been discussed by reliable sources.)

• Timothe8872 was blocked on 24 April for this re-insertion of unreferenced future works. The block taught him nothing, as he has never added a reference.

Timothe8872 is accompanied in his edits by a handful of IPs from northeast France:

• 90.40.163.2 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) 3 May 2015
• 90.40.46.221 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) 23–27 April 2015
• 90.40.163.44 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) 20–21 April 2015
• 90.40.168.109 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) 11–14 April 2015
• 90.40.45.76 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) 31 March 2015
• 90.40.158.162 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) 22 March 2015

The intertwined edit tool shows that Timothe8872 and 90.40.46.221 both edited the Garrix biography on 26 April, demonstrating the pattern of a registered editor getting logged out, then logging back in. Same with IP 90.40.163.44 on 20 April. Same with IP 90.40.158.162 on 22 March.

90.40.46.221 went silent on 25 April in concert with the 24-hour block of Timothe8872. I would have to ask blocking admin MusikAnimal whether the IP range was blocked along with the registered account. If not, the user was adhering to the block.

The big problem here is edit warring to re-insert unreferenced information over multiple articles in the topic. The latest round is all of the following reversions/re-insertions which were made in a 15-minute period. On all of these edits, the previous concern was that the information was unreferenced. Timothe8872 did not address this problem, he just reverted to his preferred version.

What should be done here? Binksternet (talk) 01:57, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I unfortunately don't have time to look this over in detail, but I can say I did not perform a range block on the said IPs. Best — MusikAnimal 02:49, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I've semiprotected Martin Garrix discography and warned User:Timothe8872 of a possible block if he continues adding unsourced or WP:CRYSTAL material to articles about Martin Garrix. EdJohnston (talk) 21:00, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Bright line violation of Interaction Ban

This edit to the article for Trenton, New Jersey blatantly violates the term of the interaction ban mutually agreed upon by me and Magnolia677, having been made immediately after an edit I made to the article without any other edit having been made. And we're back. Quite sadly.

The terms of the Limited Interaction Ban proposed on April 16, and adopted two days later are rather clear in stating "that neither party shall either directly revert the other's edits, or edit the same article until at least one third party uninvolved with either of the two has made an intervening edit."

The other editor is clear that he understands and supports the interaction ban, stating "Do what you want. I'll agree to an interaction ban" and that "I now completely agree with the IBan. All this feuding doesn't move the project forward, and wastes everyone's time." Yet, before, during and after the implementation of this interaction, similar harassment has been ongoing. All I ask is that this persistent pointless feuding and abuse be stopped, once and for all. May I please ask an uninvolved editor to notify the other party. Alansohn (talk) 13:25, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• I have notified Magnolia667. Do you seriously have a problem with them adding in something innocuous to the article that is unrelated to their edit? How does having another editor make an unrelated change in the middle make that edit suddenly acceptable? Spartaz 13:30, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• I'm uninvolved in this, and I get an IBAN is an IBAN, I've seen you two having what, three ANI topics? Anyhow, Magnolia's edit is almost a day later, and while yes they should have waited for someone to edit as per the IBAN, there isnt need for much more than a slap on the wrist here it looks like. cnbr 13:41, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oh FFS, again? It's obvious now that both of these extraordinarily annoying people are only interested in gaming the topic ban and infuriating each other with petty sniping. Block both for a few days because otherwise we will be here every few days until the end of time. Reyk _YO! 14:06, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
  • This Interaction Ban was imposed in the wake of persistent harassment and WP:HOUNDING, be it at Scotch Plains or Battin High School, with the persistent pattern continuing here at the article for Trenton. If this Interaction Ban is to have any value, it needs to be respected by both parties and it needs to be enforced. All I want is to get this editor to stop riding my ass. Alansohn (talk) 14:20, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
    • Yes, if the interaction ban is to have any force it does need to be respected by both parties. But you broke it first, and repeatedly. I don't doubt that Magnolia is winding you up on purpose and I think it's blockable. But if I voluntarily agreed to a topic ban that the other guy then immediately broke with impunity I would no longer consider it to have any force. Also, a lot of the problem is because of your ownership issues about New Jersey and your tendency to immediately go to Defcon Screech at the tiniest provocation. Reyk _YO! 15:03, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Perhaps the only solution which is equitable and reasonable here is to topic ban both editors from the articles they both frequent. If neither is allowed to edit any New Jersey related articles at all, problem solved? They can go on editing topics that the other doesn't edit, but neither gets to "own" New Jersey... --Jayron32 14:48, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support Block of both (non admin) The gaming of the IBAN seems to be an ongoing problem. An edit that is unrelated to the edit by the other party, while technically a violation, should never have been brought here. Block them both for a week. Perhaps that will end this endless nonsense. AlbinoFerret 14:55, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support Topic Ban for Alansohn (non admin) I have struck my original comment because it was pointed out that Magnolia677's edit pre dates the "final warning" about the IBAN. This is the second time Alansohn has posted a questionable claim of breaking the IBAN. I would support a boomerang topic ban or block of up to a week. AlbinoFerret 19:53, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• Block both - I'm all for assuming good faith and all that but they've been here what 3 or 4 times.... if neither of them can even stick to an IBAN then I think blocking is in order till they both get the hint and stop interacting with each other. –Davey2010 15:45, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Troutarang. This edit? Do my eyes deceive me? This edit is what you're coming to ANI to complain about? How did you manage to get a trout so firmly attached to your boomerang this morning? HiDrNick! 15:52, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Block Magnolia677, ping Euryalus, possibly trout Alansohn but I don't see the justification for a block against him. Magnolia677's edit looks to me like an intentional and pointy breach of the iban. It followed almost immediately on Euryalus's closure of the earlier thread, saying that the iban was going to be strictly enforced, and specifically naming the "intervening edit" rule as a target of enforcement. I'm never big on the zero-tolerance thing but that edit appears to just be asking for it. Besides breaching the intervening edit rule, it's a crappy edit that exactly echoes a similar crappy edit (regarding Chris Christie) in the same article. I agree with Reyk's statement "I don't doubt that Magnolia is winding you up on purpose". That winding-up is harassment and battleground editing all by itself. Yes there were earlier incidents, they were discussed and resolved, putting us at a place where the editors were supposed to drop the stick and observe the iban. That didn't happen, Magnolia677 breached apparently on purpose, Alansohn might have handled it a bit differntly, but it's not a symmetrical situation. Only one of them breached the ban. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 21:16, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Struck since I didn't notice that the offending edit was made before the last ANI closed. I still think that the edit was pointy and terrible and maybe blockable: note Magnolia's stated intention to add the rest of NJ's governors to the same article. I'd definitely support a block if that happens. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 05:48, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

• My apologies for this edit. When 406,256 edits have been made to New Jersey by just one editor, it's hard not to let one slip by. I'll try to be more careful. My edit had no impact on him though; any good faith editor would have recognized that and turned the other cheek. A few days ago, when he went onto a talk page here to denounce an edit I made, I didn't run here in a hissyfit. Magnolia677 (talk) 00:07, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

• Boomerang There's clearly an established context of disruption here, and there may very well be an argument for blocking both parties, but Alansohn has brought a complaint to ANI that can be best summarized as "Mooooooooooooom, Daaaaaaaaaaaaaad - Magnolia has his knee on my side again!" Interaction bans are meant to restrict (yes, that's right) interaction, and Magnolia's edit made no alteration to (nor was it in any way particularly connected with) content added by Alansohn. I did not see the previous discussions which lead to the IBAN, so I can't comment on what justification was given for its implementation, but I will say that the community does not support the tool broadly as means of providing peace of mind to the sanctioned editors but rather to decrease the amount of disruption caused by their personal grudges while retaining their useful edits. Alansohn seems to have missed that distinction in bringing this particular edit to this particular space as evidence of something that supposedly requires community attention. And being the immensely experienced editor that he is, he really ought to know better. If he's lucky enough to avoid a block (or a TBAN, yikes) then he should at least take the comments here as a firm warning about what the purpose and spirit of an IBAN are, whatever the specific wording of his and Magnolia's particular sanction. Snow 00:26, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

*Comment: It's a clear violation, and in this case I agree it is WP:POINTy. I don't think this ANI thread is necessary though; I think notifying Euryalus and having him institute the IBAN block would have been sufficient, since he closed the relevant thread yesterday. Softlavender (talk) 01:55, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

• It took 4 hours and 6 minutes from the closing of the very long previous thread by Euryalus to the opening of this thread. One gets the impression of runners in their starting blocks, just waiting for the first action that could be reported as a violation. BMK (talk) 02:17, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
• Thanks for the ping, am keen on letting this community debate continue awhile so we get a clear consensus for action, if possible. -- Euryalus (talk) 08:02, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

• In passing, the IBAN breach that kicked off this thread predates the thread above, and so cannot be held against Magnolia677 as a breach of the final warning. -- Euryalus (talk) 06:18, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - Recommend both editors see their doctors for a prescription for tranquilizers, nothing heavy-duty, just some "happy pills" to take the edge off. In other news: Magnola677, you must work harder not to piss off Alansohn violate the IBan, and Alansohn, you really have to get over the idea that you own New Jersey, because if you don't, people are going to start coming to you to solve their problems instead of to Chris Christie. As to who should be blocked, or topic banned, or what, I dunno. Perhaps all the rest of us should be banned from reading these threads and commenting on them. Then we'll find out what happens when a tree falls on AN/I with no one around. BMK (talk) 02:00, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
• Boomarang for Alansohn I've just realized that the edit Alansohn reported Magnolia677 for was the addition of Jon Corzine, former governor of New Jersey, to a list of notable people of Trenton, New Jersey. IBan are IBans, but we're not expected to throw our common sense in the trash can when enforcing them. This thread is an egregious violation of the community's expectation that both parties to the IBan actually do a little work to avoid exacerbating matters. BMK (talk) 02:25, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I personally disagree. The edit came after an edit by Alansohn, with no intervening edit, which is a direct violation of the IBAN. Not only that, the edit was a direct provocation in that the wording and profession mirrored Magnolia77's contentious attempt to add incumbent governor Christie to list, which Alansohn criticized in the just-closed ANI thread; even the wording of it is the same. It appears to me that the edit is a blatant attempt to get Alansohn topic-banned from NJ (along with him/herself) by baiting him to take this to ANI less than 24 hours after the previous thread which threatened such if this appeared here again. In my opinion, Magnolia77 needs a violation block and possibly a NJ topic ban, but not Alansohn in this case. Softlavender (talk) 02:43, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Sure, I don't deny that there's a possibility that M677 made the edit to needle Alansohn, but, at least in my view, that's not been shown to be the case. In looking at the situation in general Alansohn's proprietary attitude towards New Jersey articles is a much more significant problem, and he's already received two passes for violating the IBan himself. At this time, I'd be agreeable to a trout of Magnolia677, but I still believe the boomarang for Alansohn is the most appropriate sanction in this case. If there's a next instance, and there's any possibility of it having been provoked by M677, I'll be supporting a topic ban for both, as the net value to the project of both of these editors, which has been so far the reason they haven't been blocked, goes down with every disruption of the peace of the community they cause. BMK (talk) 03:47, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, he had to report it somewhere, and chose to report it here (just as Magnolia77 hoped he would, it seems). If Alansohn has "already received two passes for violating the IBan himself", that was before the last ANI closed. Since then the only one who has violated it was Magnolia77, and it was nearly instantaneous and blatantly provocative. As Euryalus said in their close last night, "Final warning to Alansohn and Magnolia677 that absent any further community decision the I-ban will now be strictly enforced and blocks applied for any breaches, including of the "intervening edit" rule and/or any interaction or reference to each other on talkpages". I'm not denying Alansohn may be gaming by editing lots of NJ articles, but he didn't break the IBAN today, Magnolia77 did. Softlavender (talk) 06:51, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

No, the last ANI was Alansohn's second pass. He opened the thread, but the (loose) consensus was that Alansohn was the responsible party, not Magnolia677. I know it's long and tedious, but you should read the thread again, especially the earlier parts.In regard to this current one, yes M677 made the edit without an intervening edit, so it was indeed a technical violation of the IBan, but the edit itself was totally innocuous, as multiple editors commented above. The parties to an IBan have something more than an obligation to report every possible violation, they have the responsibility to reduce disruption to the community -- that's why the IBan is in place. Given his ownership issues regarding New Jersey articles, it was rather unlikely that it would happen, but Alansohn's highest responsibility was to just let the edit go by, without comment, and give M677 the benefit of the pass that he got when he first broke the IBan (and that, too, was a technical violation, very much on a par with M677's in this instance). To throw the book at M677 for the edit he made in this instance is pretty much killing a flea with a tommy gun. BMK (talk) 07:56, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

*Block Magnolia77 for blatant, immediate, and pointy violation of the IBAN, which seemed to be designed to entrap Alansohn into receiving a NJ topic ban along with him/her. Please let's not let the blatant gaming succeed. Quite obviously NJ is Alansohn's expertise; there's no reason for him to be punished for Magnolia's violation. Softlavender (talk) 09:42, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

• Lightly Boomerang Alansohn, Super-Mega-Ultra-Trout Magnolia. Alansohn is trying to nitpick the editor, and while yes the possibility is that Magnolia was gaming, I'd like to AGF here. Very easy for someone to not check the edit history and just go straight to the article. While irresponsible on Magnolia's part should that be the case, they weren't trying to poke and prod anyone if that is how it happened. Should it be revealed that Magnolia was intentionally gaming, immediate support of a block for Magnolia only and a trout for Alansohn for the ANI.cnbr 12:44, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Topic-Ban

• Support topic-ban as per Jayron32, as an alternative to repeated blocks. If they won't respect the TBAN, then they need blocking. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:05, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support Topic Ban I previously supported both of these editors, as they have both contributed prolifically to Misplaced Pages. However, Alansohn's ownership of New Jersey is an ongoing problem for everyone who dares venture to that topic. As for Magnolia677, I'm not so sure...While it appears he may be challenging Alansohn to take his bait, the root of the problem lies in Alansohn's combative ownership of the topic. I think Jayron32 has the right idea Jacona (talk) 16:33, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban This has passed way past tedious and is sucking attention away from other activity. Spartaz 18:34, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I still don't see how this is even slightly justified. I'll hold back on outright opposing since some sensible and apparently uninvolved editors are supporting. That's unlike the earlier thread, where the supporters either (IMHO) either hadn't examined the situation, or else had crossed the border into involvement. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 21:16, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Topic Ban I think the frustration of uninvolved editors is leading to thoughts of draconian solutions. Both editors have contributed a lot to Misplaced Pages and I think it is better to dole out limited, but increasing, blocks for violations of the I-ban than topic ban either editor from ALL articles or parts of articles that involve the state of New Jersey. The problem isn't that they don't make constructive edits but that they don't get along. An I-ban was created to try to resolve this feud and if either party has violated it, at all, they should get blocks of increasing duration, not a ban from a primary area of the project they contribute to. Liz 22:11, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban(s) at this time. BMK (talk) 02:27, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support This is getting ridiculous. Blackmane (talk) 02:30, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban for both sides. It's clear that nothing else will stop these two from constantly butting heads and wasting everyone's time. The iban has turned out to be useless, since neither editor is interested in abiding by it, and we already know at least one of them can break it with impunity. Reyk _YO! 08:20, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban(s) at this time. Both have plenty to add to the article, they just need to stop hounding each other like school children. cnbr 12:37, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

*Oppose topic ban, at least not for Alansohn. Block Magnolia77 for blatant, immediate, and pointy violation of the IBAN, which seemed to be designed to entrap Alansohn into receiving a NJ topic ban along with him/her. Please let's not let the blatant gaming succeed. Quite obviously NJ is Alansohn's expertise; there's no reason for him to be punished for Magnolia's violation. If anyone needs a topic ban, in this case it's Magnolia. It also seems that this would eliminate the problem altogether, since NJ seems to be the place where they overlap. Softlavender (talk) 02:11, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• Note: Softlavender, this section is about a possible topic ban. Your !vote to block M677 has already been cast in the general discussion section above this. Because of this, I've removed the bolding you put around "Block Magnolia77" (and it's "677") in the comments above, since the bolded text is generally seen to be an indication of a !vote, and you can't !vote on the same issue twice. You can certainly support or oppose a topic ban, and at the same time support or oppose a specific sanction for either editor, but you can't do either of those things more than once. BMK (talk) 02:51, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Not a problem; you didn't need to explain your action here; I understood it from the edit summary and that's fine and to be expected. No worries. Softlavender (talk) 02:53, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

OK, I only explained because I wasn't sure you would read the edit summary. Thanks. BMK (talk) 03:45, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Further discussion

• Note: I'm striking my !votes based on Euryalus's recent revelation that the edit in question preceded his closing of the previous ANI thread. My opinion is that at this point both editors are acting in bad faith, both are editing/posting provocatively, and both are gaming. That said, since the edit in question preceded the points Euryalus made in the closing, my personal suggestion (for what it's worth) is that this thread be closed, and if in the future there is a violation of the IBAN, that it be reported to Euryalus, not here, and he will institute the block. Softlavender (talk) 09:08, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
• Because it could easily get lost in the shuffle, I'd like to repeat what Euryalus wrote above:

  In passing, the IBAN breach that kicked off this thread predates the thread above, and so cannot be held against Magnolia677 as a breach of the final warning.

  Every editor, of course, can determine for themselves how this information changes (or doesn't change) their previous !votes in this matter. I think Softlavender's response to strike all of their comments is perfectly understandable, and a resonable response. It is, however, not mine.Although the uninvolved editors here were (I assume) unaware that Magnolia677's edit preceded the "final warning" with which Euryalus closed the previous thread, I find it impossible to believe that Alansohn was unaware of it when he opened this thread. Because if this, I see no reason to change my reccomendations above: a short boomarang block for Alansohn (short because his last block was in 2009), and no topic bans for the two editors. Whether he's aware of it or not, the latter (no topic bans) is a gift to Alansohn, since New Jersey is almost entirely his area of practice, while Magnolia677 has other areas to work in, thus mutual topic bans would hurt Alansohn more than M677. Even so, I would not hesitate to support mutual topic bans for New Jersey if there is a next incident. BMK (talk) 19:35, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out BMK. AlbinoFerret 19:55, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, I pretty much agree that bringing to ANI an edit made before the last ANI was closed was questionable. I agree that a short boomerang block of Alansohn for this would be in order, and a reminder that stricter measures will ensue in the future. As in all IBANs, the participants have to want it to work. Hopefully that is what we will see from them. Softlavender (talk) 01:26, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Self-reporting

I'm under an ArbCom 1RR, and I wanted to check that two reverts I made fell under the "obvious vandalism" exemption - if not, I'll self-revert. A user at Curtis Culwell Center attack is removing merge tags for an ongoing merge discussion because they personally don't want to merge the article - it seems to me that this, like the removal of AFD tags by users who don't want the article to be deleted and see "make sure no one knows about this conversation" as a better choice than "try to convince others of my position", is the sort of vandalism that's exempt from RR rules. But, as I said, I'll self-revert if that's not the case; what do people think? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:33, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I do think that self-reverting would be a good idea. Looking at those 3 votes, all oppose, it would be a better idea to try it out but later. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 15:36, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion has been going on for less than an hour. It doesn't mean that consensus against a merge won't still develop, but what I'm asking here is whether attempting to unilaterally end a discussion you don't like by removing tags, like AFD tags, constitutes vandalism that is exempt from RR - not whether or not you think the article should be merged. Similarly, you can't repeatedly revert the addition of AFD tags just because you really want the article to be kept - you need to wait for the discussion to be closed, even if it's a snow close. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:37, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive indeed, but not really vandalism, you can make a call on the talk page. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 15:42, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I think the tag was removed a bit too quickly, so I restored it. Per this amusing essay, I think the merge discussion deserves more than two hours to find consensus. I'm hoping people will avoid edit warring over a tag. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:15, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Repeated creation of Eastern News Agency,(ENA) and similar articles

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello, editor SpokesManBD has been repeatedly creating articles such as these, several of which contain copied material from . The editor has been warned that they should probably not edit this article due to COI. Moreover they are continually updating copyrighted files such as Eastern News Agency.gif (which has just been deleted). I would go to RPP and ask for a create protection, but the articles appear to have a variety of names. JZCL 15:46, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I got an email from them when an OTRS reference (Ticket#2015050410008377). I deleted it as a copyvio, and am unable to verify the OTRS claims. Chrislk02 15:58, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• I've protected Eastern News Agency,(ENA) since it was repeatedly created at Eastern News Agency plus since this wouldn't be the proper place for the article anyway. I know that there is a request to restore some of the content at REFUND, but there is somewhat of a problem with this since the copyrighted material (OTRS ticket or no) is too promotional to restore. We're waiting for some confirmation on the ticket before restoring an edited version of the article at Enanews that does not contain promotional or copyrighted text. I'm mildly worried about someone trying to restore the promotional content since User:Enanews and User:SpokesManBD have been pretty gung ho about doing this. I don't see where he's been explicitly warned about reposting promotional content, so I'll give him a formal warning about this and let him know that he can be blocked for repeatedly posting promotional content. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 06:07, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
• I'm thinking that a block may be inevitable here. SpokesManBD doesn't seem to be understanding any of the issues that people are bringing up on his talk page and he's insisting that the pre-OTRS ticket content wasn't a copyright issue and that none of it was promotional. I'm trying to stress to him why this was incorrect and that the article content would have to be re-written, but it's not really going through. I don't want to block him before he has a chance to redeem himself, but so far I'm not really seeing where he's going to do anything different than what he already has. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:29, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

It seems as if SpokesMan has agreed not to continually create the article in the mainspace, but to attempt at WP:AFC. Thank you Tokyo Girl for spending the effort to help SpokesMan understand. I am happy to close this on the assumption that the article will not be attempted to be recreated outside of AFC. JZCL 20:56, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

"Factchecker at your service"

Block request for two weeks for overly antagonistic notes like this on Talk pages, plus user name "Factchecker at your service" differs from signed name ("Centrify") on article talk pages which he justifies on basis of nobody calling him out on it for 2 years. Recently this. Thanks--A21sauce (talk) 19:08, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Strong support - Enough is enough. This editor has been warned many times before about personal attacks and general disruptive behavior, yet it continues. - MrX 19:26, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Don't know that I'd describe it as "calling him out", but the editor's confusing choice of display name vs. their username was discussed with them just last month here. Dwpaul 19:38, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• (Non-administrator comment)(edit conflict): While this user does seem to have had plenty of warnings for PA/disruptive behavior, I don't believe the signed name should weigh into this as A21sauce suggests since the actual signed name is "Centrify (f / k / a Factchecker_blah_blah_blah) (talk) (contribs)" which does meet the requirement of giving some indication of actual username with the "Factchecker_blah_blah_blah" part. Any block here should be for PA, not for username/sig and A21sauce should be admonished for attempting to invoke unnecessary additional drama here in this section IMHO. — {{U|Technical 13}} 19:42, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Plenty of examples of PA, thanks Mr.--A21sauce (talk) 19:55, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Very confusing. Regarding the diffs that MrX posted above, I see some warnings made to Factchecker, but I don't see any instances of the bad conduct he is alleged to have done. Also, one of the cited postings includes a statement by Cwobeell to "Go fuck yourself." Exactly what is Factchecker supposed to have done? Can we see some evidence of that? BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 20:02, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I don't know what's so confusing. Click on the links to the warnings, then click on the links in the warnings that leads to the specific personal attacks. For example, "Rm. deliberate source misrepresentation and spin; track what source actually says, not what Cwobeel wants it to say". Also, he's been wantonly disruptive at an Arbcom case. Examples here: WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Collect and others/Workshop#Factchecker atyourservice (warned)- MrX 20:23, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support some sort of sanction The conduct of this editor--whatever he calls himself--at the Arbcom case has convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is an activist editor with an agenda who is disruptive.

--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 20:34, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I do not believe that there is any policy/guideline requiring or even suggesting that a user's signature should have their actual username, and can think of a couple examples where this is the case. If there is, could someone point me to it? No opinion on the rest. ansh666 21:32, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Found it: in WP:SIGFORGE, While not an absolute requirement, it is common practice for a signature to resemble to some degree the user name it represents. So that's no reason for a sanction. Again, no opinion on the rest. ansh666 21:34, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support - The signature is a side issue: very annoying, but not a blockable offense. What's blockable is to be a disruptive POV-pushing editor, and the nickname is indicative of what that POV is: Misplaced Pages is dominated by a cabal of left-wing editors, and saviors like Factchecker_atyourservice must edit in a right-wing fashion in order to "Centrify" it. He will now, most assuredly, post here to totally deny this, and comment on my mental disconnection from this corporeal plane, but it's what makes sense and accords completely with Factchcker_atyourservice's behavior, editing and commentary. This person is not actually here to improve the encyclopedia, whatever he thinks he's doing, he's here to push a specific political point of view, and that is blockable. BMK (talk) 02:10, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

So the editor has user names emphasizing that he wants to check facts, and that he likes to limit sources to the mainstream. If you really want him blocked or banned or whatever, I would suggest keeping the weird argument about his usernames to yourself.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:58, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Note: it appears that the OP is here continuing with another ANI thread that the OP started recently on the same subject.. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but it is worth noting.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:33, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

The OP's first diff above shows the OP making an accusation of "yammering". So it seems the incivility was not unidirectional.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:39, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

The OP cited this diff at the conclusion of the original post of this thread (above). The diff shows Factchecker basically asserting that certain accusations against one editor (Collect) would be more appropriately made against another editor instead. I see nothing remotely blockable in what Factchecker said there, even if his assessment was mistaken.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:57, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Regarding this 2014 edit to which Mr. X objects, not only does it seem rather stale at this point, but it also shows FactChecker removing BLP material that apparently did misrepresent the cited source. Does anyone dispute that the material was unsupported by the cited source?Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:21, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

It's only "stale" if Factchecker_atyourservice hasn't continued to do the same kind of thing quite often since then. Since that appears to actually be the case, then it's not "stale" at all, it's a data point in a pattern of behavior. BMK (talk) 08:19, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Have you looked at the cited source? Have you looked at the correction at the end of it?Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:30, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose for reasons stated.Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:21, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
• The signature is confusing, but I'm just a not very hip old man so I'm probably just behind the curve on style or whatever. Hum...MrX, one of your diffs is actually from from December and shows Cwobeel saying "go fuck yourself" to talk:Factchecker atyourservice. Another isn't even a diff of an edit made by the defendant.--MONGO 05:57, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Thank you for your helpful observations. I will be happy to clarify why I think admin action is required by providing more detailed examples of Factchecker at your service's personal attacks as soon as I have a little more time.- MrX 10:05, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose , first there's nothing wrong with his signature, second, almost all of your diffs don't show any personal attacks, they show you warning Factchecker about personal attacks, the links within the warnings also don't lead to any personal attacks. There are at least two that I found that are personal attack (near the end) but they happened back in 2014, 2011, etc..... So oppose , and beware of smooth, throwable returning objects. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 10:45, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. Using a different signature is not against policy or guidelines and is the reason I changed mine because that is what the consensus of editors was when another editor began using a signature that was not their username to sign his posts that was very close to my old username. We have a consensus on the name thing. Mr.X's links aside (I haven't looked at them) the original complaint is without merit and I can't see supporting a block.--Mark Miller (talk) 15:23, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Evidence

Interweaved amongst these examples are many similar comments directed at various users. Anyone with the time or motivation may find FCAYS's contributions at the following pages to be quite illuminating: Talk:The Federalist (website), Talk:Mattress Performance (Carry That Weight), Talk:Shooting of Michael Brown, Talk:Joni_Ernst, and the various project and talk pages at WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Collect and others.- MrX 19:16, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Mr. X, just looking at the item at the top of the list, I am puzzled. Isn't it correct that Cwobeel was (or is) an involved party in the ArbCom case that factchecker was discussing there? So there was nothing inherently wrong with mentioning Cwobeel, right? Could you please explain why exactly the following statement to ArbCom (that you quote in your first item above) is now blockable at ANI? "With all the hours upon hours that editors here spent compiling diffs against Collect, half of which don't show anything, claiming to be motivated by pure non-partisan Wiki-Concern, yet not a single person posted a single diff against Cwobeel's virtually identical but much more extensive conduct in that regard, just shows what a politically motivated witch-hunt this is." Are you saying that politically-motivated witch-hunts never happen at Misplaced Pages, and that is why we should now hunt down Factchecker and burn him at the stake, so to speak? I'll get to your subsequent diffs if you can explain that first one.Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:14, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I didn't claim that the first diff was a blockable offense (which is why I provided a non-exhaustive list from roughly the last seven months. FCAYS presented no evidence against Cwobeel, just aspersions. WP:NPA is quite clear that accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence are personal attacks. If you want to explore the topic of Cwobeel's conduct, start a new section and present diffs to support your assertions. As to the rest of your comment, I find your characterization of this discussion as a witch hunt to be especially unsavory, not to mention illogical.- MrX 02:01, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Mr. X, you are correct that policy says accusations about personal behavior lacking evidence are never acceptable, and serious accusations require serious evidence. However, in the first of your latest series of diffs, factchecker merely said that Cwobeel's conduct is "virtually identical but much more extensive" than Collect's behavior, which strikes me as rather inoffensive if one admires Collect's editing, as I think Cwobeel does. Anyway, there's a serious side-issue here: if a group of editors only compile and present evidence or purported evidence against one segment of Misplaced Pages (adversaries), while deliberately avoiding doing so for another segment of Misplaced Pages (allies), then that is a legitimate systemic problem worth pondering and discussing out in the open, especially if the adversaries do not counteract such tactics by mimicking them. One of your own diffs in this thread shows Cwobeel telling Factchecker to "go fuck yourself", so I'm sure you could manage a word of criticism about Cwobeel if you wanted to. The rest of your diffs similarly lack context and apparently are designed to overlook provocation, which I find kind of unsavory.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:29, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

The point is that this was in the context of a arbitration case, where anyone who wanted to, Factchecker_atyourservice included, could have presented evidence against Cwobeel, and not a single editor did so -- and yet Factchecker_atyourservice still felt free to cast aspersions against Cwobeel on the talk page, with no evidence to support his allegations. This appears to have been done on the theory that the best defense is a good offense, so that by accusing Cwobeel of behaving in a similar manner to Collect, Factchecker_atyourservice was, I suppose, hoping to undermine the charges against Collect – even though those charges were supported by evidence from multiple editors, and Factchecker_atyourservice's charges against Cwobeel were supported by nothing whatsoever. BMK (talk) 02:37, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. I didn't have time to post evidence before the evidence closed, as clearly stated and explained numerous times. If you truly cared about the case you could have asked for an extension to be granted to me, but rather it seems you quite content shutting the door on people who would try to respond to these accusations, and who actually have a real life outside WP that imposes time constraints. Centrify (f / k / a Factchecker_blah_blah_blah) (talk) (contribs) 11:05, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

The big aspersion being that Cwobeel is a lot like someone whom Factchecker admires?Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:43, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

No, the big aspersion being that Cwobeel, according to Factchecker_atyourservice's unsupported allegations, was doing the same kind of thing that Factchecker_atyourservice was concerned that Collect was going to be sanctioned for -- and, in fact, is on the verge of being sanctioned for even as we communicate with each other so delightfully. You can't evaluate the purpose of the actions of a POV warrior like Factchecker_atyourservice without looking at them in the context in which they occured -- but, you knew that, didn't you? This is all just circling the wagons, innit? BMK (talk) 03:04, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I discussed the first of Mr. X's latest series of diffs. I could proceed and consider the second too, but its just another instance of decontextualizing, as the remark was in response to a charge of "yammering". It's just too tedious to go through the rest of Mr. X's diffs one by one, especially since I am already dismissed as a wagon circler, or something. Do you have evidence of wagon circling, BMK, or is it just unsubstantiated, because my family hasn't circled the wagons since about 1850, and I am not quite that old. :)Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:12, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I'm willing to bet that you've metaphorically circled the wagons once or twice in your day -- haven't we all? But I'll readily concede that my "evidence" for wagon-circling consists entirely of my behavioral observations of the... let us call them "The COLLECTion" ... of editors who share a similar political POV as Collect. Please be clear, I am not accusing the members of The Collection of behaving badly in general, I'm sure that most of you are true assets to the encyclopedia, and it indeed "takes all kinds", as long as we're all working towards the same goal of a truly balanced, factual encyclopedia. But, I'm afraid, that some of your cohort are somewhat less than dedicated to that proposition, and I would number Collect and Factchecker_atyourservice among them. The fact that The Collection may be circling the wagons is quite understandable, and reminds me a bit of FDR's remark about the Nicaraguan dictator Anastasio Somoza: "He may be a bastard, but he's our bastard". BMK (talk) 03:40, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

So, in other words, other people should be blocked for talking about other editors in un-diff'd generalities at an ArbCom case specifically directed at long-term user conduct, but you're exempt from that requirement everywhere on WP because you're very special and on the right side of Wiki-history? Centrify (f / k / a Factchecker_blah_blah_blah) (talk) (contribs) 11:09, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm sure no amount of wagon-circling by me could protect anyone at Misplaced Pages for long. Anyway, my comments above are sincere. Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:24, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

As I'm certain must be obvious to you, wagon-circling is a collective activity, not one undertaken by an independent individual, but each person serves their purpose, as you have here in attempting to take some of the heat off of Factchecker_atyourservice. Unfortunately, the circumstances made that somewhat difficult to do but it was an honorable try. BMK (talk) 04:49, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I barely started, but you dismissed it as wagon-circling so I stopped. If you'd like me to keep going, I would throw Monsieur X's last seven diffs in the bonfire, as they are from last year. That still leaves a bunch I haven't mentioned yet.Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:02, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I thought you were going to bed? Couldn't sleep?I'm sure I don't have to explain to you the difference between the passage of time and a calendar year. "Last year" was not so many months ago, and in any case, the constant cry in these reports is "Show us a pattern of behavior". But, apparently, according to your thinking, if a pattern of behavior is shown, the oldest events get thrown out because they're too old? Do diffs spoil, like fruit or something?No, the truth of the matter is that a continuous pattern of behavior from 7 months ago right up to the present moment is exactly what is required to show that Factchecker_atyourservice is indeed a disruptive POV-pushing editor. Rather than "throwing Mr. X's diffs in the bonfire" (I didn't know he was French!), I would suggest that he compile even more, going further back, and filing in some of the holes, between, say, January and April. The more diffs of Factchecker_atyourservice's misbehavior the merrier, I say! BMK (talk) 08:12, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I prefer a few unequivocal diffs than a big boatload of ambiguous ones. The former are easier to analyze and discuss. I barely scratched the surface of discussing this boatload before you got sick and tired of it.Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:28, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support, and I'm myself puzzled at Anythingyouwant's innocent puzzlement in the long dialogue just above ("The big aspersion being that Cwobeel is a lot like someone whom Factchecker admires ?"). Anythingyouwant, are you saying that the arbitrator (Dougweller) who posted this "formal caution" on Factchecker's page specifically for Factchecker's's out-of-the-blue aspersions against Cwobeel, has misunderstood everything? That Doug failed to understand your syllogism that Factchecker admires Collect's editing (actually, you say Cwobeel admires Collect's editing, but I think that was just a mistake) and Factchecker was comparing Cwobeel's editing to Collect's, so therefore Factchecker was most likely saying something nice or at least inoffensive about Cwobeel? Anyone who looks at the actual exchange in context (here it is, about the middle of the thread), Anythingyouwant, can recognize your argument above as contemptible wikilawyering, Bishonen | talk 18:09, 6 May 2015 (UTC).

"Contemptible wikilawyering" is it? You carefully omit to explain why Dougweller's warning was insufficient to address the matter. You carefully omit to mention that Dougweller's warning was mainly about a different comment by Factchecker entirely, you carefully omit to mention that the different comment was made by Factchecker after a section had been hatted, and you carefully omit to mention that I have said nothing whatsoever in defense or opposition to that different comment made by Factchecker. Contemptible wikilawyering my ass.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:22, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Malware link removal request

On KMPlayer I tried to remove a Download.com malware link, but another contributor was unconvinced that at this time rather old or on CNET#Download even unsourced warnings are still applicable. Meanwhile I've added two referenced statements in this section, updated the fresher "bare references" on Download.com#Adware to {{cite web}} style with authorlink= where applicable, added new references for the years after 2011, and a video while at it. Could somebody please remove the offending section from KMPlayer, the link can't be a good idea (IANAL). As SoFixIt-fan I am already at three attempts to get rid of the crap. –Be..anyone (talk) 19:36, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Download.com/CNET is not a "malware site". I have no idea what the issue with this user is, but they seem to be on a very mistaken crusade. Download.com is perhaps the biggest website of its type, and is most definitely not a malware site... there was some speculation of issues with an installer in 2011, which are completely irrelevant four years later, and the source used as an explanation for the last revert was still a year old, and was far from calling Download.com a malware site... it simply stated that there was an issue with AVG (a well-known anti-virus provider)'s search tool where it wasn't secure, and it was included in the Download.com installer. Note please that this user, who as far as I can tell is failing terribly at WP:CIR, hasn't once tried to discuss this, despite me pointing out BRD twice in edit summaries (even if I mistyped it in one of them), and has simply marched off here. Quite frankly, I don't think this user understands what malware or adware are... because the things they've added to the Download.com section are either dubiously referenced, not calling anything adware/malware, and are still old. "In 2013 a groovypost editor explained how to uninstall the potentially unwanted programs left after an installation opting-out from additional offers." - seriously? Where's the evidence they're a reliable source? Random mailing lists certainly aren't, and those are being used as references as well. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:27, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

JFTR, I informed the user on his talk page about this thread after starting a thread on Talk:KMPlayer with a {{ping}} four hours earlier. So far for not once try to discuss anything, the edit history of KMPlayer with some kind of discussion in the edit summaries is pretty mild in comparison with Download.com. –Be..anyone (talk) 22:45, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• You notified me about the ANI thread, yes. You did NOT notify me about the talk page discussion, which is what I said - so don't try and flip my comments to be something they're not. And not only did you never notify me about the KMPlayer talk page discussion... you ran here with a content dispute just four/five hours after making the initial post. That's lame. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 23:02, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oh, and note that any attempt at cleaning up the unreliable sources in the Download.com article - which I also intend to try and sort out with ones that are actually known as being reliable - is reverted with the "revert vandalism" tactic. Yep, User:Be..anyone fails WP:CIR clear as day. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:48, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

"Most of those sources are either obviously unreliable (mailing list, teacher's blog, random websites with no oversight whatsoever), or of dubious reliability" in this edit about Brian Krebs (Krebs on security), Ed Bott (ZDNet), Scott Hanselman (Microsoft blogger), insecure.org, howtogeek.com, The Register, US-CERT, twit.tv, Gordon Lyon, etc. in six fully referenced links and a video. Three of these links actually as they were as stated above, i.e. converted to {{cite web}} and now reverted, the newer references + video removed. After the user claimed that everything is old, as it in fact was (2011, only The Register/US CERT was 2014.) Interpreting that as request for fresher references was plausible, resulting in 2012+2013+video (also 2013)+2014+2015, five good new references from notable sources. Removing referenced on topic statements is vandalism in my book. –Be..anyone (talk) 21:11, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• I did say most, not all. ZDNet is good, yes, but I fail to see where that was actually being used in any way as anything other than just a video. There was certainly no justification for dumping it in the article in that way - use it as a reference by all means, but not like that. That's not how Misplaced Pages works. The Register was already in there, and remains in there. In the meantime, there were things cited to mailing lists, blogs of random teachers, and sources that have no evidence of being reliable. Howtogeek.com is not a reliable source for Misplaced Pages. There's no evidence for insecure.org being a reliable source for Misplaced Pages. Etc, etc. Even if I'm wrong, then I'm misguided, not a vandal, and THAT is why you are failing CIR. Please note how I have used reliable sources to tidy things up a bit, whilst fixing various formatting issues myself. Such a great vandal, aren't I? But by all means, continue grinding your axe with unreliable sources and things being added in badly. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:17, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• It is also worth noting that CNET/Download.com is owned by CBS Interactive, who are owned by CBS Corporation - hardly the sort of place that would actually be deliberately, and consistently, providing a "malware site" now... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:26, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oh, and as a further note, it's such a dangerous site that the likes of PC World Magazine are more than willing to provide download links that use that site - and that was from last year as well. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:29, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

google:download.com+malware to find more potential links, only one is "teacher" Scott Hanselman. The issue that CNET used to be a trustworthy site before 2011 is addressed in almost all references, removed by you or still there—actually I haven't checked anything older than Brian Krebs+Gordon Lyon. –Be..anyone (talk) 21:33, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Only one was a teacher, yes, but that is an example of the multiple sources that are either blatantly unreliable, or do not comply with the reliable sources policy. Whether you added them in or they were already there, we had information cited to a teacher's blog and a mailing list. And yes, I've been Googling the information to see if there's anything out there... there's a fair bit of discussion of the 2011 issue (again, four years old), and basically nothing bar The Register's piece that is a properly reliable source since then. The fact I've been Googling the issue should be obvious by the fact I've added in a couple of actually reliable references myself... And I've even left in something with an unreliable source tag, to give you a chance to prove that it may be an acceptable source for use on Misplaced Pages - since a lot of that section is dependant on it. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:39, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• WP:3RR joined the club: 1, 2, 3. –Be..anyone (talk) 21:44, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• You don't even understand that policy! I made three reverts, not four, which I would need to have made to violate the rule... meanwhile, given that you were removing things from the KMPlayer article, it could be technically stated that you made four reverts there - and I've seen that definition used before. But by all means, continue to destroy your own case. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:48, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

The blatantly unreliable teacher Scott Hanselman is quoted as expert on 21 articles about Windows topics on enwiki, because that's what he really is, after all MicroSoft employs him, and he published various often quoted articles on his blog. Interpreting policy is the job for an admin, that's why we are on this page. –Be..anyone (talk) 21:53, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• ANI is not for content, it's for user conduct anyway. He may be a reliable source for some things, but there is 0 evidence that he is a reliable source for this particular topic. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:00, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Most issues are obvious for somebody trying to figure out what happened, but this edit summary was not on one of the three directly affected articles or their talk pages. –Be..anyone (talk) 22:20, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• And I stand by it. You don't understand what vandalism is, you don't understand the 3RR policy, you're relying on sources that are at times blatantly unreliable, and at others are dubious at best, and you're edit-warring content that is inappropriate into articles in defiance of general practice. You also completely failed to allow any discussion to take place before running here... five hours is nothing, and without any ping, I didn't even see the discussion at first. WP:CIR is a thing, and I'm seeing a striking lack of competence here. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:31, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

So far you failed to identify even one "blatantly unreliable" reference in the four I've added, because you claimed that only one incident in 2011 was old and irrelevant. 19+21 uses on enwiki for 2 of the 4 sources with fresher incidents, one fresher interview with a ZDNet exert not disputed by you (but nevertheless removed by you), and the groovypost recipe matching my own observations, admittedly a site used only in seven enwiki articles. You also removed the technical term PUP several times, even after adding the good EMSISOFT reference using exactly this term. –Be..anyone (talk) 06:15, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

WP:6RR field trial in 4, 5, 6 by a user who has serious problems with a "howtogeek.com" reference, a site quoted on nineteen Misplaced Pages articles. –Be..anyone (talk) 23:12, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Any policy you do understand? 3RR applies to individual articles, and at no point have I broken that. Making up statements like the above is ridiculous. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 23:21, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

The one EMSISOFT link you added tested the top ten downloads individually with both antivirus programs. The Howtogeek test published two months earlier tested the top ten downloads in a row skipping the 2nd antivirus program for obvious (and explained) reasons. IOW they tested the same nine downloads + one different program, and arrived at the same results, EMISOFT with a summary that 62% of the programs while avoiding "voluntary" add-ons were bundled with PUPs. One of the links you conveniently avoided inventing a new term "potentially unwanted software" for the issue. EMSISOFT didn't bother to count minor issues like modified browser homepages.

Their definition of PUP is close enough to the definition here to be considered as in essence the same thing. So removing references totally agreeing with what you later added using another source might be also some bad case of WP:OWN. There's still a missing good recipe how to get rid of one "opt-out everything but" PUP, a missing video interview with an expert published two years before the EMSISOFT pages, the missing howtogeek now confirmed by your research, the missing Microsoft expert Scott Hanselman, and the missing criticism on CNET—apparently a point where we actually agree, one page for this cesspool is enough, but my merge suggestion failed. –Be..anyone (talk) 05:37, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

• How can I be "owning" a page I'd barely edited before yesterday? HTG isn't a reliable source for that kind of thing, and the comments within the article only prove it. There's a big difference between a PUP and malware, a very big difference. It's also complete bollocks to say that I'm "owning" a page by replacing unreliable sources (and, yes, pieces in usually reliable sources that draw solely from an unreliable source, without doing anything of their own, are therefore unreliable) with reliable ones, not to mention using more neutral wording. You have presented 0 evidence for Hanselman being an expert in malware, and the piece he did was so far from being neutral and balanced that it's untrue - and HTG were just as bad. Also, Download.com is not a "cesspool", but thanks for showing your true motivations - to slander the company no matter what. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 08:40, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment There's a more recent claim I've found that adware can be installed like Superfish which installs a root certificate in the user's computer to extend adware to SSL sites (google encrypted search). (howtogeek - copied in Forbes blog NDTV churnalism The Guardian Technology) Lifehacker writes that Wajam is adding Superfish-style SSL root certs, and Wajam is accused of being one of the companies that has a deal to install additional software though wrapped installers. This might not be RS. Note, CNET admits that they bundle Wajam software, see this interchange from 2013:

  We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience here, and we have shared your feedback with the appropriate site managers. It sounds like you may have inadvertently accepted this offer in the CNET Download.com Installer.... You should be able to uninstall any offer(s) via your computer's Add/Remove Programs panel, but if for some reason that does not work, you might want to try one of the programs listed in our uninstaller software category (keeping in mind that some do use the CNET Installer too)... And instructions for resetting your browser(s), if you need them, are here: http://download.cnet.com/2701-2023_4-2107.html... Should you need any further assistance, please feel free to contact our support team directly by filling out the form ... In the "Description" section of the form, please include a link to the Download.com page from which you downloaded when Wajam was installed as well. - Jen

  Yes, CNET bundles Wajam and a range of other "offers" that provoke user frustration, some of which which break internet security by forcing an SSL root cert into the system. I don't have an RS for this, but Facebook is accused of making an "evil interface" that allows them to claim that users have choices, when in fact the users haven't chosen their own privacy settings. I'd argue the average technical competence of the average user is why they accept "offers" that they later, in frustration, find difficult to remove, and didn't understand they were getting in the first place. -- Aronzak (talk) 21:53, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks for providing a useful response. The Guardian piece is a reliable source, as is the Forbes blog; not certain about Lifehacker or NDTV. How-to-Geek does not seem like one. I'll read those pieces and put something in the article that fits. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:00, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Hmm. The Guardian piece would normally be a reliable source... but it references this article, which relies heavily on How-To-Geek without verifying anything itself. So that one is out of the window. The Forbes piece does exactly the same thing. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:03, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Yes, it may be churnalism. Note, see here.

  The Download.com Installer securely delivers software from Download.com's servers to your computer. During this process, the Download.com Installer may offer other free applications provided by our partners. All offers are optional: You are not required to install any additional applications to receive the software you selected... The Download.com Installer may show offers for other free applications. All offers are optional: You are not required to install any additional applications to receive the software you selected. We screen all application offers to ensure they are safe and can be uninstalled. No offers are ever automatically installed without your acceptance.

  Note that these kinds of vague statements are usually highly mendacious - "choice" is a euphemism - most users lack the technical competence or patience to read warnings and "click though" dialogs to the default option (Browsers now offer bright red warning pages to tell people SSL certificates are not safe, after studies showed that small yellow triangles were often used in harmless/meaningless boxes that pop up on a user's computer with out of date/misconfigured software). -- Aronzak (talk) 22:07, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• As to why I don't believe HTG is compliant with Misplaced Pages's RS policy; I don't see any evidence of a proper editorial process that a reliable source would require, and as the name suggests, this is primarily a How-To site, not a journalism site. It's also worth noting that they're criticizing all free download sites, but only mention CNET/download.com by name as it is, well, the biggest and easiest target. HTG even admits that Note: the installers are so tricky and convoluted that we aren’t sure who is technically doing the “bundling," Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:08, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• The paper on browsers, by the way is here - 70.2% of Google Chrome users clicked though SSL warnings in one trial. I think there's a peer reviewed study or at least a professional survey asking people if they have software on their computer they didn't install. -- Aronzak (talk) 22:11, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• I'd be surprised if there wasn't one, to be honest. In fact, I'd expect there to be a few of them. That number sounds about right; too many people do things like that, due to either laziness, or not knowing any better. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:14, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• TLDR, but if it helps anyone, I've found an article in German at Heise Security about Superfish-y adware certificates referencing CERT. From the news article: "These applications will embed the dangerous root certificate in your system: <bullet list>."De728631 (talk) 22:24, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Interesting pieces, but sadly not directly relevant to the articles in question by the OP - if they're not in the Superfish article, they may be worth adding in. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:37, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Should note that the reporting user is still making bogus claims of vandalism, and edit-warring to keep content in place that is neither appropriate for that particular article (belongs in the main one), is not neutral (directly linking to a criticism section of an article for no good reason) and contains the dubious HTG source. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:27, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Emsisoft blog? 1 2 - note that the prase "potentially unwanted program" which wiki links to Malware#Grayware -- Aronzak (talk) 22:48, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• That one looks good to me. I'll add in a comment with regards to that, making sure to note that every other site tested had an issue as well. I'll use the unwanted program term rather than malware, because most of the programs are obviously reputable, and there are multiple ones I'd vouch for myself. Still don't see how this would justify axing CNET as a reference in other articles, but it's certainly worthy of note. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:54, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't, the CIR issue still stands and the user should be warned sternly. It just raises the question here of a content issue, where on the CNET page there is a need to educate users. And forgive me for being sentimental, but the content issue just rankles me - in the early days of the internet it was run by academics wanting to make useful software that would open up a community of free inquiry and exchange, and now the top results for open source applications are scam links that bundle PUPs that track their online activity. -- Aronzak (talk) 23:05, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more - the number of PUPs loaded in is just a pain in the backside. It can be a nightmare trying to find obscure drivers, for example, without hitting these sites. But I do recognize they have to make money somehow... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 23:07, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Still edit-warring in content without a care about whether it is actually relevant or not. This user doesn't appear to understand any policy or guideline at all... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 23:00, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I have reverted the user and have given them an edit warring template on their talk page. I told them to wait until the issue has been resolved on ANI. I'll wait for an admin to take action. Callmemirela (Go Habs Go!) 23:09, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• For what it's worth, I recognize my part in the edit war fully, and hold my hands up to it; I just don't like things being removed for poor reasons, and I really object to being called a vandal for no good reason. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 23:11, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Warning/block needed for user User:\\'arrior 786

Hello. Could any awake admin drop another warning or perhaps another block for this user? Apart from adding unsourced additions, and spreading some ethnic nationalism, there is virtually no single use for his edits. Though he got blocked on the 10th of April for disruptively editing, which is very recently, he still hasn't understood it. It's rather quite annoying for other users who have to rv, rv, rv his edits. Some of his disruptive edits we had to revert these days , , , . Regards.

- LouisAragon (talk) 01:47, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

@LouisAragon: You need to notify editors you report to AN/I that you have done so. Best practice is to use {{subst:ANI-notice}}. Monty₈₄₅ 02:08, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Ah, check! Had forgotten to do so. - LouisAragon (talk) 02:11, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

vandal copy/pasting edit summaries to fake an ip block

Some random IP User:10.68.16.57 marked User:103.251.65.66 as blocked by User:Gillam, although I cross-checked the block log and vandal's talk page that User:Gillam didn't block them. That admin says somebody is faking ip blocks. Could you guys please take care of that? purely bizarre. See also Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism's history. thanks --Fazbear7891 (talk) 01:48, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

This is User:HBC AIV helperbot5 logged out. I've temporarily blocked the IP until the bot owner can correct the issue. Please note that any IPs in the 10.0.0.0/8 range will be from Wikimedia internal servers and are not random editors. Nakon 01:50, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

@Nakon: Not sure it makes sense to block the bot now that its logged back in, which would suggest the problem is resolved/resolved itself, and even if its not, the bot would then be editing logged out and unaffected by the block. Monty₈₄₅ 01:58, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

The IP has now been unblocked. All seems resolved now. Nakon 01:59, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Did you mean blocked Nakon? FWIW part of the problem was that the wrong template was used in the original AIV report. The template used read {{vandal|User talk:103.251.65.66}}. It should read {{IPvandal|103.251.65.66}}. The bot might have been kicking the report out since there is no User talk:103.251.65.66 (talk · contribs). MarnetteD|Talk 02:19, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Oh - Nakon I see that you mean the IP that was running the bot - not the one that was performing the vandalism. MarnetteD|Talk 02:41, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

My apologies if my statement was confusing. The 10. IP was the bot editing while logged out. This IP has been unblocked as the bot has been fixed. Nakon 02:42, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

← It (they) seem to be logged out once again. --kelapstick 11:22, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Long term disruptive editing by User:Eshwar.om

Can some admins look into the disruptive editing and POV pushing by Eshwar.om (talk · contribs) at a large number of article over several years? Frankly I believe he is editing in good faith, but is hindered by issues of:

• competence, which makes his talkspace posts, which are very rare, often incomprehensible (sample at random). Article space contributions are even more troubling and detailed below.
• Bad faith (see posts here and here)
• POV pushing of Tamil language, history and literature.

Some examples from this week, although the problem has persisted for years

Let me know if any clarification is needed. And thanks in advance to whoever looks at the volumnious evidence and the users longer editing history, which in earlier days would have belonged at RFCU. Abecedare (talk) 04:07, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
PS: Should have mentioned that Eshwar.om has been amply warned/advised about his edits as a quick look at his talkpage will show (and that's just since April 2015). Abecedare (talk) 04:35, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

• Topic ban for 3 months from Hinduism-related articles would be a better idea. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 04:10, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Oops.He given wrong information about my contribution.my edits and his Edits are visible for all in wikipedia.Every one will look on that.but i dont know why this editor saying like this?!but yes i will look on that. i will give diff and page links.thank youEshwar.om 04:33, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid this is a competence issue and the competence seems not to have improved in the slightest over time. I do not question that they mean well but the level of disruption is pretty extreme. It has, by the way, included unfounded accusations that I was editing while drunk, seemingly just because I disagreed with something that had been done. A topic ban from Hinduism articles isn't going to achieve much: they have exhibited problematic behaviour all over the place, as demonstrated by the sample diffs provided by Abecedare. We are at the stage of a parting of the ways, unfortunately. I'm guessing that English is not their first language, so perhaps it would be more useful if they were directed to a native-language project. - Sitush (talk) 05:31, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

• July 2014 ANI discussion: "User:Eshwar.om disrupting" that led to a one week block by User:Bbb23 (the user has had other 30 and 59 day blocks). Note that the main issue at that ANI was disruptively adding large number of (often copyvio) images to several articles, which as I noted in my post above are both still a problem. Also note the problems are also seen in the user's edits related to Indian history, languages, and geography. So any edit-restrictions limited to a few months or Hinduism-related articles alone are likely to result in a recurrence and us being back here sooner or later. Abecedare (talk) 06:07, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Abecedare saying Long term disruptive editing by User:Eshwar.om.it is not true. he is saying that iam pushing POV pushing in the name of one particular language.i will not agree that.see the article which is created by me recently List of Hindu Female saints .it covers all languages and literature from india.if i like only one language then why do i create this article?!.India and Hinduism covering more information.my contributions are based on that. even i used to provide more Reliable source too.also i am wondering he showing almost all my edits.oops.Eshwar.om 06:20, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Even i used to talk with senior editor likeSitush while create an article ..click here.but he is saying points against me here :) .i know He is not polite with other users in his talk page.some time he uses angry and vulgar words.click here.i dont know whether the two users joining together and dominating others ?!if it is true then how the new editors may contribute in future?!Eshwar.om 07:50, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

And also i remember one thing that is user Abecedare left a warning message on my talk page once.in that he said "I don't usually leave templated warnings for experienced users, but in this case I don't think the message is getting across"click here. And now he is saying" Long term disruptive editing by User:Eshwar.om ".it makes to think how it is?!.he only said , discuss the issues on articles talk page.but he is not discussing in talk page click here.instead of talking in relevant talk page he is reporting me here .wont i feel surprise ?!.Eshwar.om 08:31, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

• And Eshvar.om just keeps going, adding tons of images in galleries, in most cases just images of Hindu temples (sample edits from the last few days: with the misleading edit summary "corrected image gallery" when he in fact added a new gallery, and where he added a new gallery with images of Hindu temples, plus where he removed all images of churches, in an article about a city with a sizeable Christian minority, and several famous churches), and often right in the middle of the text of a section, as if this was Photobucket or Flickr. And then edit-wars to keep the images in the articles if reverted, not getting the hint. A behaviour that is clearly disruptive. Thomas.W 11:49, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

We can now also add abusing warning templates to the long list of disruptive behaviour, for posting an immediate level-4 warning for vandalism (along with reverting the edits with the edit summary "vandalized by user Ajayy99,reverted back") on the talk page of a user who had most certainly not vandalised anything. Unless adding a couple of images of churches is now considered vandalism. So I suggest a long block, the longer the better, for Eshwar.om. Thomas.W 12:16, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Eshwar stopped for almost a day, and I thought the message may have finally got across and the ANI thread thus served its purpose. But alas. Have requested Drmies to take a look. Abecedare (talk) 14:31, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Thomas.W please dont make a link with any religion.some places could have its own importants with its ethnicity.so it's unavoidable some times in some cases .and that was a not new gallary please see.click here .it was removed by user Wasifwasif .Might be his own interest belongs to one particular view click here .And you are saying i given warning to user ajay99.yes i given.user ajay 99 created wiki page for him in the past with out any importance . and you tube vedio uploaded by him and link inserting in to chennai articles.here you can see 'Architecture sec Click here.also he never provide any Edit summary atleast once in his full Edit historyclick here.user Thomas supporting him.and i have one confusion that is user ajay 99 uploaded some files namely called chennai Thomas like that click here.is user Thomas.W and ajay99 are same?!Eshwar.om 16:00, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I have a hard time figuring out what you're trying to say because of the garbled English, but I can assure you that Ajayy99 and myself are not the same person. And since your English obviously isn't good enough to make yourself understood (or read and understand warnings and messages you're being given, for that matter), I suggest you find a Misplaced Pages in your own language, and contribute there, instead of here. Thomas.W 17:03, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• I have notified Eshwar.om about the WP:AC/DS concerning Afghanistan, India, Pakistan subjects. Any more disruption can be reported at WP:ARE. Nothing is really going to happen here since these subjects are rather technical. As for any non-related discretionary sanctions issues, yes he has violated copyrights and only indef block is solution if he had been warned before. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 17:08, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• What is technical about image-bombing, wild accusations against others etc? Or inability to communicate in a meaningful manner (or even at all, sometimes). You don't have to know anything about Hinduism or indeed India to recognise the disruptive nature of a lot of the issues that have been raised. OZ, you have to realise that AGF is not a suicide pact: you've been supporting quite a few (for want of a better word) duds in the Indic sphere this last couple of weeks and I've no idea why. We've got enough problems to deal with in this area without having to go round in circles with long-term competence issues. - Sitush (talk) 23:14, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• @Sitush: You are correct about everything that you've said. I had expected some quick action, and it has been already 2 days since this report was filed, and until now nothing has happened.

I can point to these warnings, that's why I said that indef block is the only solution. POV pushing, personal attacks, are coming along with serial copyright violations, nothing can be more obvious than that.

And after all this, he is still involved in WP:GAMING, check , he claims that he has reviewer and rollback right, although his user rights log is empty. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 01:16, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

• Which is why I saw it as just plain vanilla disruptive editing, in sharp contrast to the religious/caste/language/ethnical POV-pushing I often deal with, and didn't feel it merited a DS warning. Thomas.W 23:25, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Need an IPv6 rangeblock, STAT

2600:1017:B013:4B9F:4C28:74E4:CEB6:BCA8 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 2600:1017:B02A:504:6F:2117:2A1F:5D17 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 2600:1017:B00C:4:6C4C:5563:993C:726E (talk · contribs · WHOIS). MO: rapid total blanking. Drmies (talk) 18:47, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

• Smalljim, you just blocked another one. Drmies (talk) 18:57, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

No idea how to calc IPV6 rangeblocks, sorry. If I tried I'd quite likely block half the world :( I can keep on blocking as he pops up, for a while.  —SMALLJIM  19:02, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

• Well, it seems to have tapered off. I hope I didn't miss any of the preceding ones... Drmies (talk) 19:08, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

• Too big a range to rangeblock anyway; over 4 million /64 subnets (i.e. users). Black Kite (talk) 19:14, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
• Drmies, I think 70.209.137.98 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) was part of it too – same ISP.  —SMALLJIM  19:20, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Trappist the monk and Monkbot

1. Old discussion about Monkbot altering citation style in medical articles (including Featured articles) from November 2013
2. Old discussion about Monkbot altering the citation style on Venezuela articles from November 2014
3. Current discussion about Monkbot editing citations at Trappist the Monk talk page

Monkbot resumed running even though the concerns I raised were not addressed. In its current iteration, as one simple example shows, it:

• introduced the unnecessary "over-engineered" parameters at a medical article, that
• clearly uses the Diberri/Boghog format favored in medical articles because it limits template clutter, as I have tried to explain to Trappist the Monk.

The link to the "over-engineered" diff above shows the following citation style for reference #28 before Monkbot's edit and after Monkbot's edit:

• before: Pagon RA, Adam MP, Ardinger HH et al. (1993). "Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, Hypermobility Type". PMID 20301456
• after: Pagon RA, Adam MP, Ardinger HH et al. (1993). "Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, Hypermobility Type". PMID 20301456

What is the objection? I see no difference. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:45, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

The objection is that Trappist and his Monkbot have a style/personal preference that ignores ease of editing. As you notice in this one simple example, the difference resulting from the chunked up template parameters is insignificant to our readers, so why do editors trying to write content have to work around convoluted parameters that take overengineering to simply say, et al? The bigger concern, of course, is that Monkbot continues forcing his personal style into templates even after concerns are raised. There is no reason for such convoluted syntax to be replacing et al, which chunks up articles in edit mode-- and many editors have told that to Trappist in multiple discussions about his template choices. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:53, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Trappist received approval to add the keyword to the display-authors parameter at WT:CS1#How to use "et al"? (I happened to participate in that discussion but only from a "not quite the right name" perspective), silent consensus for the actual template amendments regarding this actual change at WT:CS1#Update to the live CS1 module weekend of 18–19 April 2015 (which is broadcasted to multiple different locations in effort to reach a broader audience) and approval to run Monkbot in this fashion at Misplaced Pages:Bots/Requests for approval/Monkbot 7. To suggest they are his "personal preference" or that he was ever uncommunicative with the interested community when he had consensus for all three actions stretches my good faith and I'd say is probably an ad hominem argument.

Maybe there's some room to improve which pages and who gets an advertisement of the changes being made to an arbitrary citation system, but I'm not sure you're here looking for better ways to get the information to more users. --Izno (talk) 19:02, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• My understanding of the situation is as follows. Trappist is splitting "et al" into a separate parameter, so that it doesn't get shoved with the author's name in the metadata. For example, whereas previously the metadata output might've been { ... "author3": "Ardinger HH et al." ... }, it now is { ... "author3": "Ardinger HH", "other_authors_omitted": true ... } (this is all hypothetical; I've no idea what the actual output is). The latter is semantically correct. Though splitting out "et al" in post-processing is a possibility, it is also confusing that it should be part of the |last= parameter - or any other numbered author parameter. The fact that you've made a habit out of this does not make it right, or intuitive, or easy for newcomers, as it's been falsely asserted elsewhere. Perhaps Trappist should attempt to explain the inner workings of CS1 and its toolset to other editors in a plainer language. Perhaps a better name could be found for this parameter. Your claim that he has changed the citation style, in contravention to CITEVAR, appears to be incorrect; as has been demonstrated above, the text is unaffected. Finally, it appears to be true that there is a general lack of consensus for this change as concerns medical articles, so it might be best to hold off applying it to any more until an understanding can be reached. I do not see an immediate need to revert any of the bot's edits. Alakzi (talk) 01:24, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

  Past discussions were about CITEVAR; in this discussion, it looks like you are confusing WP:CITEVAR (how a citation renders to our readers) with unnecessary template clutter (how a citation is seen when an editor has to work around all of that unnecessary clutter). Please spare me from any more discussions of the inner workings of CS1, and respect the inner workings of editors trying to write content. Bots should not be used to force preferences on content writers, and should stop running when issues are raised. (Meaning, this is not a CITEVAR issue-- it's a behavioral issue.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:33, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

  I agree that the bot should stop for the time being, but you're gonna need to find a common ground. You have a point; Trappist has a point. Will you not try to compromise? Alakzi (talk) 01:48, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

  The style of many medical articles is to place all authors in a single parameter, such as authors = Landes AM, Sperry SD, Strauss ME, et al.. The "ideal" style for metadata purposes would be last1 = Landes | first1 = AM | last2 = Sperry | first2 = SD | last3 = Strauss | first3 = ME | display-authors = etal. The former is obviously more intuitive and less confusing to everyone except bots. KateWishing (talk) 01:55, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

  Yep, and even if Trappist didn't favor adding even worse and longer convoluted names to replace five letters (which he did in this case), all those parameters create a mess to edit around in densely cited medical articles, and chunks up article size, too. Perhaps those bot operators who are so concerned about "metadata" can write a bot to get it. My concern is what processes we have in place that allow bot operators to go around ... chunking up and over-engineering templates in articles without consensus. I think they probably talk amongst themselves off in some technical space, but when their product hits "the real world", and editors complain, they should stop. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:00, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

  OK, that's sensible; the diff you linked to in the OP had |last=Wenstrup et al.. I presume this is - in fact - not compatible with the medical article style - and it shouldn't be expected that it should be parsed correctly by {{Cite journal}}, either. I see that {{Vcite2 journal}} exists for the purpose of parsing the comma-delimited authors list, so why isn't the bot replacing Cite transclusions with Vcite2? Was any of this discussed? Alakzi (talk) 02:06, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

  Is there any particular reason why you are here speaking on Trappist's behalf, while he is not? I think he knows what discussions have been had. If the communication issues from the way he writes are part of the impasse, we should get to the bottom of that, because I can't follow most of what he writes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:29, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

  How is it that I'm speaking on Trappist's behalf? What if he knows? I'm asking as a member of the community, for the benefit of the community. I'd appreciate it if you stopped treating me like an enemy, or worse. Alakzi (talk) 02:41, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I saw this at WT:MED also, and while it'd be a good idea to hold off the bot till things get figured out, I have to admit I'm lost on this one. Cleaning up bad metadata sounds like a good idea. The underlying problem that the current suite of cite templates puts a giant glob of wikisnot in the edit window is IMO insignificantly improved by truncating the author list. (Recognizing that I haven't been around for prior discussions on this, I'd argue that it's worse to lop off the last authors in this context.) Opabinia regalis (talk) 01:55, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Opabinia regalis, imagine the number of citations in a Featured medical article like schizophrenia (166 citations, mostly journals) or Alzheimer's disease (283 citations, mostly journals), and the template clutter and article size that result if we don't use the Diberri preference of listing all authors when there are five or less, and truncating to three when there are six or more. (I know I don't have to tell you after your cleanup of Enzyme :) The discussion of the concerns of those who favor metadata issues over content writing (remember the infobox wars) has been had many times, in many places, but we have a behavioral issue here because template/sysop rights were granted by the crats to an editor who doesn't seem to respect the needs of content writers. As the links above show, I've discussed with him several times over the years, and in this case, he simply resumed running the bot.

And again, for those bot operators so concerned about metadata, the Diberri/Boghog format (as explained many times) always links to the PMID (PubMed identifier), and any metadata anyone wants can be had by using that PMID to access PubMed-- freely and forever. We needn't have well cited articles chunked up to an enormous size and with long load times because they are clunked up with templates to parse out 15 author names on a journal source, when et al suffices for those that have six or more authors. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:38, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I should've replied on one of the other threads instead of in the drama pit on AN/I, since my interest is in the data and I haven't been paying attention to the behavior angle. It seems that the bot is stopped, so probably this should continue elsewhere. Ideally clean metadata is a useful thing for content editors to have available, though at present it doesn't seem to be used very effectively. (This template-clutter problem is why I liked {{cite pmid}}, but that's another thing. As a total side note, improvements in the wikEd 'simple' view with collapsed references would make the author-list-bloat much less of an issue.) Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:57, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Style preferred in medical articles for at least the ten years I've been editing:

• author=Borchelt DR, Thinakaran G, Eckman CB et al |title=Familial Alzheimer's disease-linked presenilin 1 variants elevate Abeta1-42/1-40 ratio in vitro and in vivo |journal=Neuron |volume=17 |issue=5 |pages=1005–13 |year=1996 |pmid=8938131

Same source, in style of Monkbot change discussed in this thread-- no reason to add a separate template parameter to separate the et al, because that has no effect on ability to get metadata on all authors):

• author=Borchelt DR, Thinakaran G, Eckman CB |display-authors=etal |title=Familial Alzheimer's disease-linked presenilin 1 variants elevate Abeta1-42/1-40 ratio in vitro and in vivo |journal=Neuron |volume=17 |issue=5 |pages=1005–13 |year=1996 |pmid=8938131

Same source, in style preferred by metadata advocates:

• |last1= Borchelt |first1= DR |last2= Thinakaran |first2= G |last3= Eckman |first3= CB |last4= Lee |first4= MK |last5= Davenport |first5= F |last6= Ratovitsky |first6= T |last7= Prada |first7= CM |last8= Kim |first8= G |last9= Seekins |first9= S |last10= Yager |first10= D |last11= Slunt |first11= HH |last12= Wang |first12= R |last13= Seeger |first13= M |last14= Levey |first14= AI |last15= Gandy |first15= SE |last16= Copeland |first16= NG |last17= Jenkins |first17= NA |last18= Price |first18= DL |last19= Younkin |first19= SG |last20= Sisodia |first 20= SS |title=Familial Alzheimer's disease-linked presenilin 1 variants elevate Abeta1-42/1-40 ratio in vitro and in vivo |journal=Neuron |volume=17 |issue=5 |pages=1005–13 |year=1996 |pmid=8938131

You can respond to me directly. A misinterpretation is not a "red herring". I've suggested a way forward and an alternative. It is now up to you to approach this issue constructively. Alakzi (talk) 09:56, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

You are incorrect regards your second bullet. It corrupts the metadata that Misplaced Pages provides to include "et al" as an "explicit" author (as has prior been explained to you above), because "et al" isn't an author but instead an abbreviation humans use to signify that we really just don't care about the other unlisted authors. No one is claiming you can't use |author= for actual authors. Your third bullet simply appears to be hyperbolic concern for the future of your citations (as no-one has proposed to deprecate, nor do I think anyone will, the use of |authors=). --Izno (talk) 18:49, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

That seems like a WP:LOCALCON problem waiting to happen. WT:MED does not own articles; to suggest as you have done certainly makes that an implication. If there should be a discussion (which I won't dispute whether there should or shouldn't be one), that is not the location to have it (per WP:CANVASS if not WP:LOCALCON). --Izno (talk) 18:49, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Totally agree with Izno. Yes a discussion needs to happen, but no not a WT:MED per localconsensus. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 10:54, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Editor violating guidelines

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I placed a single-line sourced addition to the Moors murders article. A number of editors disputed this edit, and took it to the Talkpage. Unfortunately, two editors, one in particular seriously violated Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines in their conduct as a result of the disagreement.

User:Cassianto

1.This user undid my edit, with an edit summary 'no I don't think so' which seems to breach WP:ESDONTS namely don't 'Make snide comments' or 'Be aggressive' 2.I tried to discuss at User talk:Cassianto but the user was again rather condescending and seemed to be ganging up on me with other users he already knows 3.When discussion began on at Talk:Moors murders, I simply put 'I think it is notable enough for a single line' - however, Cassianto replied 'Then you need to look up the definition of "notable", clearly.' (Ignoring WP:NNC) I believe this breaches WP:CIVIL - when I indicated the editor should read WP:CIVIL they replied 'I did once, and I vowed never to read it again' 4.It is breathtaking the way some editors feel policies don't apply to them. I was not rude to the editor, but I was treated in a condescending and arrogant manner over a very minor matter

• The user then preceded to launch a very abusive and malicious attack on me. He linked my 710 contributions and entirely falsely wrote 'Not so ridiculous when you look at his contributions which seem to be all geared around the May elections. This user seems to be on a campaign trial on behalf of UKIP'. This is called blatantly misleading other editors, surely in violation of policies such as WP:AGF, WP:BITE, WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. I have nothing to do with UKIP. I am not a member of any political party. I am not enrolled to vote in the United Kingdom. So these are ludicrous allegations. I have created 21 pages, 16 non-related to the elections. Articles I have created such as Endorsements in the United Kingdom general election, 2015 are very important and been widely edited and viewed. I have also created articles such as United Kingdom general election, 2015 (Wales) in accordance with precedent. I have worked hard on the project for good and in good faith. Examples: List of European Union member states by GDP growth and Mr Galloway Goes to Washington. I have successfully nominated dozens of articles for speedy deletion. As a new editor, I am deeply upset by how hard it is to edit this site without abuse and being treated like a moron (WP:BITE). It certainly is not encouraging for those wanting to make a difference in good faith.

Nothing at WP:SPA points to me. 5.The editor has breached multiple policies.

Editor still going. He has written now 'What makes you think I give a fuck about your political leanings?' (despite questioning them) and removed the ANI notification remarking 'what a waste of time'. What is the point of WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, WP:NPA, WP:BITE? AusLondonder (talk) 01:13, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• AusLondonder (talk · contribs) is a three-week old account so general lack-of-clue is understandable (ANI should not be used for every minor disagreement, and no one was abused). However, using Misplaced Pages to post smears just before a general election is not desirable, and anyone who cannot understand that it is a smear to highlight which political party a notorious murderer supports just before an election should not be editing (see WP:CIR). Johnuniq (talk) 01:43, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I cannot understand why everyone is whitewashing my 710 contributions, 21 pages and pretending I'm incompetent, it's perfectly fine to use the words 'fucking' and 'bullshit' whenever you disagree, ignore every policy in existence, and throw around false allegations whenever you disagree. I'm not even going to bother anymore. You guys can't stand new editors who quote policy.AusLondonder (talk) 01:51, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I want to 'smear' them (in your eyes), you want to censor and willfully withhold accurate sourced information you feel will damage a party. AusLondonder (talk) 01:52, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

When will you start listening? The revert had nothing to do with the source, ownership, the fact that you're a new editor, or anything else. It was reverted because it has fuck all to do with the Moors Murders and stinks of political smearing on the upcoming general election. Cassianto 02:37, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

It would have been so much easier if you had reverted it and been civil about it. But you just couldn't manage it, could you? Please stop your paranoia about UKIP. Why do all UKIP defenders think their is some great 'stinky' conspiracy to 'smear' the party? 'These bloody editors coming ere taking our jobs and following the rules'AusLondonder (talk) 03:23, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I was civil. I told you that it wasn't notable. You then asked me "why I got to decide that". Clearly I don't, which makes your question to me uncivil. Cassianto 03:34, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Eric_Corbett

• This editor, who I've never met before then preceded to write at Talk:Moors murders 'Make that six against; this is just fucking ridiculous'

This is extremely uncivil, especially because I had given up. It was a minor issue, I couldn't really care less. AusLondonder (talk) 00:59, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't know if Eric's behaviour is important enough to bother about, just thought I'd add to show the way new editors are treated over one disagreementAusLondonder (talk) 01:01, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• AusLondoner, I think you need to get over yourself. I reverted your edit which I'm entitled to do as I do not believe that Brady's political allegiance is in any way relevant to the Moors Murders. I don't fall for this bullshit about you being "deeply upset" and how you think my opposition to your edit was "malicious" or "very abuse" . I think this post has more to do with the fact that several editors have opposed you and that you now feel aggrieved at having had to resign to the fact that your edit has not made it into the article. Cassianto 01:22, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

You really can't help yourself can you? You just cannot accept that being civil is not that hard and it helps the process. Again, I couldn't care less, I haven't 'resigned to the fact' - I just don't care. After seeing a couple of comments, I left it. Despite swearing at me again, let me tell you I am upset by your attitude, it has taken me by surprise. I don't think your opposition was malicious, I think your allegations and attitude was. I'm not aggrieved with the editors who calmly and respectfully expressed their views. Stop misrepresenting what I am saying and what I think. AusLondonder (talk) 01:32, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• While the incivility is never really necessary, Adding the political affiliation of a murderer, whose sole claim to notoriety is their murders, and whose murders were not politically motivated, reeks of partisan politics, and his totally encyclopedic. As its clear that the editor is primarily editing about the election, and related political topics, its not hard to figure out the likely reasoning behind the edit in question. Considering all that, I think the responses were proportionate, even if uncivil. Monty₈₄₅ 01:35, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Why do policies like WP:AGF, WP:BITE, WP:CIVIL etc exist if people are free to ignore (and enforce) them as they please. I have made significant positive contributions. But the nastiness is really shocking. The article has lots of details about their past and lives post-crime. I simply added it, according to WP:BOLD. It wasn't malicious. All it needed was calm talk. I don't see how it is partisan. I am not editing primarily about the election - how can you honestly write that given the contributions and page creation link I added? Astounding. AusLondonder (talk) 01:43, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying this won't end well, and you'd best let it go. Be content to know that you're in the right, and that knowledge should literally be all you can expect from this. --Jayron32 01:49, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Yep, their is a protection racket at work here. AusLondonder (talk) 02:50, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Can you back that claim up with evidence, or are you only here to make baseless accusations? Cassianto 03:05, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I cannot understand why everyone is whitewashing my 710 contributions, 21 pages and pretending I'm incompetent, it's perfectly fine to use the words 'fucking' and 'bullshit' whenever you disagree, ignore every policy in existence, and throw around false allegations whenever you disagree. I'm not even going to bother anymore. You guys can't stand new editors who quote policy.AusLondonder (talk) 01:51, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the new editor here. Are we trying to welcome new editors? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:52, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

You're full of surprises Knowledgekid. That's unlike you to side with an editor who files an ANI report against Eric and I. Have you even bothered to look at the case, or are you just siding with him for the sake of it? Cassianto 02:29, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Sadly, no. They don't want anyone who questions their little rule-breaking community, that ignores policy. They think breaking every policy is 'appropriate'. They think I'm incompetent despite 710 contributions and 21 new pages. I'm not even going to bother with this site anymore. I can't put up with this. I've got better things to do AusLondonder (talk) 01:54, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Again, as I noted before, it's not everybody. It's just one person. There's 48,527,388 - 1 which aren't this way. If you do what everyone else does, and ignore his comments as though they were never made, and then just pretend he doesn't exist, it would work much better. He's long ago proven he isn't worth listening to. --Jayron32 02:09, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Have I really? Perhaps that makes two of us then? Eric Corbett 02:13, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't know Knowledgekid87, but I know what you're trying to do, despite your promises to reform. Eric Corbett 02:17, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

'That's unlike you to side with an editor who files an ANI report against Eric and I' - happens a lot does it? Despite your paranoid conspiracy theories, the reason Knowledgekid might be siding with me is because you are highwaymen who act like bully-boys and spit in the rules of this project. How can you be surprised when others complain about you? AusLondonder (talk) 02:50, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

If KnowledgeKid has any opportunity to oppose Eric at something, he will. I suspect that him siding with you has little to with him actually agreeing with you and more to do with him seizing the chance to stick the knife in. Cassianto 03:01, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Have you got any evidence to back up that allegation? Or just failing to WP:AGF and be WP:CIVIL? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AusLondonder (talk • contribs) 03:20, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Look through the archives as this discussion isn't about providing diffs on an unrelated matter. KnowledgeKid would be the first to admit that there has been a history between him and Eric. Cassianto 03:28, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• AusLondonder, if you bring something to ANI, you need to post WP:DIFFs of every single infraction that you claim has occurred. Posting usernames and making unsubstantiated claims is not going to get you anywhere here. All of the editors involved here (including yourself) have voluminous recent edit histories. You can't force editors watching ANI to read your mind or to search through those histories to figure out what you might be talking about. Post the diffs that back up your case, if you have one. Otherwise, it's just another unsubstantiated rant/complaint, and will be ignored. Please read the guidelines at the top of this page entitled "Welcome to the incident noticeboard". Softlavender (talk) 02:03, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• Actually, AusLondoner's 771 contributions is in no respect "voluminous", although it's certainly more than respectable for less than a month of editing. Let's just keep things accurate, or the next thing you know all sorts of people will be blowing all sorts of things totally out of proportion.As for AusLondoner: You've been here about a monthor so, if you think the place is going to change the way it is to accommodate you, you're totally mistaken. That has nothing to do with welcoming or not welcoming new editors, it's completely about mass and intertia. Try adapting yourself to the folkways of the place instead, you might find that you'll be less frustrated and more productive. As it is, you're titlting at windmills, banging your head against a wall, pushing a rock up a hill, . BMK (talk) 02:27, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• With respect, Cassianto is the one trying to change the rules and move the goalposts. The editor is pretending sensible, mutually-agreed policies he doesn't like don't exist. Policies that are essential for the functioning of any online community in harmonyAusLondonder (talk) 02:35, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• OK, I tried. Apparently, you'd rather be "right" then be productive. (You do know that we're here to build an encyclopedia, yes?, and not to be a new model online community.) I've given you a pathway to getting some work done, your choice is just going to lead to more and more frustration on your part. Maybe, after you've got a little more experience under your belt, you'll understand what I'm telling you and move in that direction. Until then, I guess I'll be seeing your name on the noticeboards. BMK (talk) 02:43, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Note to BMK, I meant recent edit history. Edited to reflect that. Softlavender (talk) 02:45, 6 May 2015 (UTC) // Thanks for the explanation. BMK (talk) 02:56, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• Again, AusLondonder, this ANI thread is possibly going to boomerang on you, or at best be speedily closed, if you don't back up these claims with diffs. Last warning. Softlavender (talk) 02:45, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Ah, yes. I'll be the one to get in trouble. Wouldn't surprise me... I was going to post this, I was eating (I'm not a robot) Here are the diffs

1. WP:ESDONTS breach

2. Talk page discussion a, Another allegation against the editor of ] Cassianto then replied 'hit the road' title=User_talk%3ACassianto&type=revision&diff=659714939&oldid=659714697 here and also go bother someone else, to a polite request for civility

3. Conduct at Talk:Moors murders here

5. Allegations against me of WP:SPA Breach of WP:AGF, WP:BITE, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA here with an edit summary entitled 'You've been watching a part political broadcast by AusLondonder' in breach of WP:ESDONTS here and more swearing here with more false allegationshere Please read this in conjunction with the actual points I made above at 1,2,3,4,5AusLondonder (talk) 03:04, 6 May 2015 (UTC) Above, during this discussion the editor also posted this 'AusLondoner, I think you need to get over yourself. I reverted your edit which I'm entitled to do as I do not believe that Brady's political allegiance is in any way relevant to the Moors Murders. I don't fall for this bullshit about you being "deeply upset" and how you think my opposition to your edit was "malicious" or "very abuse" . I think this post has more to do with the fact that several editors have opposed you and that you now feel aggrieved at having had to resign to the fact that your edit has not made it into the article', another blatant breach of policies illustrated above. AusLondonder (talk) 03:06, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

My desire for justice and my desire to fight inequality makes me frustrated over this. If I behaved like this towards other users (I wouldn't I don't set out to be awful) wouldn't I get blocked? Every day people get blocked for their incivility. Why are these editors protected? Or are we setting a precedent and abolishing WP:AGF, WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL and WP:BITE? AusLondonder (talk) 03:10, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• You write "My desire for justice and my desire to fight inequality makes me frustrated over this." Please read WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. We're not here for "justice" and "equality" for anyone, we're an encyclopedia. We state the facts as reported by secondary and tertiary sources (and occasionally primary ones), and that's it. You want "justice" and "equality", start a blog, join a political party, march in the streets, vote in an election, but don't try to get your jones here. BMK (talk) 03:22, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• The diffs you have provided have bugger all to do with your complaint. Or are you now fishing in my history to bolster up your "case"? Cassianto 03:09, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Ah, they absolutely do. They are the exact issues I'm raising.....AusLondonder (talk) 03:11, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

The second diff doesn't. It has about as much to do with this case as point number "5" (as you only have 4). Cassianto 03:13, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Guess what smart alec, the initial complaint did have 5 points if you read it. But only 4 points need diffs. It is important to add diffs which let the mask slip on you and your editing behaviour. I haven't gone fishing. Should I? AusLondonder (talk) 03:17, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Im all for WP:AGF but at this point I feel you just let it go. You are worked up over this I know but Misplaced Pages is a big place okay? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:22, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Yet more incivility with the "smart alec" comment. You should really practice what you preach. Cassianto 03:24, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

That seems to be a surprisingly common feature of Civility Enforcement requests. Monty₈₄₅ 03:29, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm blow away. You've seen a catalogue of incivility and abuse including 'fucking', 'fuck all', 'bullshit', false accusations, snide remarks, abuse of edit summary, and you have a go at me for saying smart alec. Is this satire?AusLondonder (talk) 03:32, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Monty845 How much abuse should I put up with? How much do I have to cop before I say something back? AusLondonder (talk) 03:32, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Legal Threat

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:2602:306:3644:13a0:702c:3d49:8ed9:7ca5 made a legal threat here: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Winner 42 (talk • contribs) 02:44, May 6, 2015‎

• Before seeing this, I blocked 24 hours for the edit warring after a 3rr warning. If any admins want to increase the block length on account of the legal threat, I have no objection. As for the substance of the claim, the text in question is cited to a clearly reliable source, and as such, there is no compelling policy reason to justify its removal, though of course whether we want to keep it is a matter of normal editorial discretion open for discussion. Monty₈₄₅ 02:52, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• The text in question is the article Pamela Geller. A shooting in Texas recently occurred, and now the Pam Geller article is getting a lot of views because people think she was targeted in the attack. Geller has anti-Islamic views, and some editors have been trying to remove or whitewash this info. Epic Genius (talk) 03:03, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Now a 1 week /64 range block for block evasion. NLT block duration in an IP is always tricky, but that may suffice for now. Monty₈₄₅ 03:11, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

seems to be consensus that removing afd comments is ok?????

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There is an editor, name is unimportant, that removed my afd comments and vote to try to make his opinion win. I asked maybe three admins and none of them tell me that it is wrong or right. Common sense would be that it's wrong and admins would say so. I also see that this editor is a troublemaker because he is the source of valid complaints in ANI only 3 days ago here ~

Why do we allow such vandalism or is it ok to occasionally, not daily, remove afd comments that you don't like??????? Is wikipedia just a pack of wild wolves? Why is this happening?Deepavali 2014 (talk) 05:40, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Hello User:Deepavali 2014 and welcome to this Noticeboard. You said; "There is an editor, name is unimportant, that removed my afd comments and vote to try to make his opinion win." Actually, if you want people here to help you, we need a diff of the removal. Can you supply the diff please?Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:46, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

]
Deepavali 2014 (talk) 05:56, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

First of all name of the user is important because you need to ping him about this discussion. I assume you are talking about this reversion done by Davey2010. Am I right? --Chamith (talk) 05:51, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• I suggest you familiarize yourself with WP:VANDALISM and WP:BOOMARANG. BMK (talk) 06:05, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I completely agree with BMK here. Even though Davey2010 didn't do the right thing he was kind of right about your rationale for the specific afd. Just because you don't like doesn't mean it has to be deleted. And here on Misplaced Pages we don't vote, instead we make consensus. And from what I can see you don't know how to comment on talk pages either. In the case where you provided the link above your formatting is incorrect and you forgot to sign your comment (Well, now you have).--Chamith (talk) 06:07, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• Deepavali 2014, if someone deletes your comment on any page except their own talk page, then simply re-post it, but in the correct location. That's all that needs to be said here, except do not ever try to close AfDs you are WP:INVOLVED in; in fact, do not ever try to close AfDs at all, because you clearly do not have enough experience on Misplaced Pages to know what you are doing. Softlavender (talk) 06:03, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• Am I the only one who thinks this block is extremely harsh and, while the OP is perhaps overstating the issue, their AFD vote should not have been removed and should have been reinstated when they complained? Seems like very bitey beaviour all round. Spartaz 12:17, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• I told the bloke to readd his comment below everyone elses how is that hard to understand ?, Had he complained on my talkpage I would've been more than happy to help and readd it for him but no instead he went to everyones talkpage and seeked to have me blocked ..... He brought the block on himself - Sure perhaps I shouldn't of removed it but he's more than capable to come to my talkpage and ask for help instead of wanting my arse blocked. –Davey2010 12:28, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Apparently you didn't get the message. Per WP:Talk, "The basic rule—with some specific exceptions outlined below—is that you should not edit or delete the comments of other editors without their permission....Fixing layout errors: This could include moving a new comment from the top of a page to the bottom...." There's no "perhaps" about whether you should have completely removed it.Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:38, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Many well respected editors here remove stray !votes on a daily basis, Sure some move them below some don't - I made the mistake of not adding it below but as I said he should've come to my talkpage where I'd of been happy to help him and then all this could've easily been avoided. –Davey2010 15:21, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Davey, it is not reasonable to assume that someone you've mistreated will come to you for help with the matter. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:39, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Except they haven't been mistreated in the slightest, Look we can debate about this all day long but me and him both have learned a lesson so lets close this and move on, Past is the past. –Davey2010 16:38, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• Eh. This editor is pretty clearly a net negative at the moment. Hassling (by my count) four admins to block someone for making a mistake is disruptive IMO, and so is trying to close an AfD they just voted on. Her weird and blatantly inaccurate accusations of sexism on her talk page make me think she'll continue causing trouble until her attitude changes. In hindsight, good block. Reyk _YO! 12:52, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
• @Spartaz: I would have appreciated a ping if this discussion was going to continue, especially if there was opposition to the outcome. In honesty, I thought 72 hours without escalation to indefinite following the block was generous considering NPA on multiple pages, ADMIN SHOP, BOOMARANG, edit warring/disruption, and the recommendation to drop it and being warned by several sysops, along with the fact that Davey2010 engaged the editor on their talk page about the issue and not once was it responded to. This editor had ample opportunity on the advice of everyone they approached. They consistently revealed a pattern where if they didn't get the answer they wanted, they kept going. It would not have stopped for them with this ANI and I wouldn't have been surprised if we saw an SPI and Arb Com case filed. BITE is not about giving endless amounts of ROPE to clearly disruptive and destructive editors who do not have the intention to work with others. After a forth or fifth time explaining something and a complete disregard for it, the situation stops being an issue of misunderstanding, and onto a wilful act of disruption. Mkdw 08:26, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

@Diannaa, Kuru, Davewild, and Philg88: If you have opinions on this since you also had been involved in replying to this editor, I would like to hear from you. If the consensus is clear the block was "extremely harsh" I'm more than willing to acquiesce. Mkdw 08:31, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

IBAN for User:Eddaido ... or longer block?

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• Eddaido (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

In December 2013 I blocked this user due to this pattern of unpleasant and sexist personal attacks on a female editor. Today I received this notice by him that he was going to repeat the behavior, and indeed he has here. I have blocked for two weeks this time. The question is now

• Do we simply introduce a one-way IBAN between Eddaido and SamBlob?
• Or is such pre-mediatated, sexist and unpleasant abuse simply worthy of a longer block, or indef?

Black Kite (talk) 08:48, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

WP:ROPE. Eddaido is a strange editor. Knowledgeable about some topics, weird on others and from time to time they go off on personal campaigns against particular editors (SamBlob and myself are two favourites) which are mostly just bizarre, more than anything else. I can't explain their behaviour at all. Certainly an iBan would need to start growing longer and longer - if they're banned from going after just SamBlob, I don't relish the prospect myself.

I think they should be held to just the same standards as anyone else (but held to them). If they harass other editors, they get blocked for it. If they do it again, it escalates. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:22, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• What would the sanction be for breaking any interaction ban? Would it be a longer block than it would be for repeating the personal attacks? Would it be easier to enforce? If not, then I see no benefit in such a ban that cannot be had from simply blocking for the attacks. Andy Dingley's suggestion of escalating blocks seems sensible and simple. Mr Potto (talk) 09:52, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
• Agreed. There is no reason for an I-ban if you don't believe the editor will respect it and abide by it. Liz 10:13, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
• Is it worth pointing out civility to them, and defining clearly how it will be enforced in the future? They have a habit of sarcastic sniping in edit summaries. Yet when this was going on a couple of years ago, some admins refused to act on it, on the basis that "attacks in mere edit summaries didn't count". This is one of the reasons why Eddaido has got away with this stuff for so long. Reverting other editors with the comment, "Someone made a nasty mess on the page" wouldn't be accepted from other editors, yet Eddaido was allowed to keep doing it. I would applaud Black Kite here for being the only one so far to have acted.

If we're to avoid an IBan (as seems likely), then I think it is worth making it clear that some of their past actions just won't be accepted in the future.

At the root of today's little spat, Eddaido seems to be blaming SamBlob for some long-running transgression on their part. Whilst recognising that's no excuse, I'd be interested in letting Eddaido put forward their side of it. If only so that other editors can then tell them plainly that there's no such actionable issue and that they need to drop it. (I overlap a lot with both editors and I know of no such thing.) Andy Dingley (talk) 10:46, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I can't really think of any behaviour that would justify that response, but as far as I can see Eddaido's grievance is purely one of disagreeing with SamBlob's edits or claiming that she has made mistakes. All really minor stuff. Black Kite (talk) 11:45, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Ah. Him again. I think he believes completely in his own rightness and has a grudge against me because I have caused some of his weirder edits to be undone. Discussion of one example can be found at Talk:George Holt Thomas (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) and at this archived section. That section also gives his usual defence of his edits, which boils down to "I'm right and you're stupid." He has toned this down a little in the last year or two; some of his more egregious examples are in the archive of his talk page. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 14:02, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Blocking for two weeks is ultra-restrained in light of the history of this user's attacks on SamBlob, the previous sanctions for them, and now the renewed assault prefaced by the petulant boast to the blocking admin that the “hopefully insulting” edit summaries will continue. Escalating blocks are surely the most effective solution. Nevertheless it looks like this user just doesn't get it, and is determined not to. I don't see it ending well for him. Writegeist (talk) 20:20, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Continue to post insulting edit summaries to provoke a response is falling into trolling territory. I'd say starved the troll and not only extend the block, but delete the summaries (if possible) or revdel (if not). Blackmane (talk) 01:10, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

WP:PEACOCK by User::115ash on the lead of articles about Italian notable persons

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Good morning, during the last days I casually met several edits of User . These edits have a common trait. They deal with notable Italians of the past, which are always defined as "the greatest", "the best", and so on. Here are only some examples from the last days:

• Francesco Redi
• Giotto
• Maria Gaetana Agnesi
• Anna Magnani
• Giacomo Leopardi
• Giovanni Domenico Cassini
• Lorenzo de' Medici
• Jacopo Riccati
• Giacomo Agostini

As one can see, the pattern is always the same: find some source (academic, non academic, blog) that assert the greatness of the notable and put the assertion in the article's lead.

My opinion is that behind this edits there is a clear agenda, that is the glorification of the Italian genius through the centuries. When I was a kid, affirming the world preminence of the Italian artists, scientists, and the like was common practise in the Italian schools, still under the influence of Fascism, but in the last decades, with the European Union and the dying of the old generations this was passèe (until now? :-)).

At Misplaced Pages, this kind of edits is explicitly prohibited under WP:PEACOCK ("Words such as these are often used without attribution to promote the subject of an article, while neither imparting nor plainly summarizing verifiable information. They are known as "peacock terms" by Misplaced Pages contributors. Instead of making unprovable proclamations about a subject's importance, use facts and attribution to demonstrate that importance").

Anyway, because of that, I wrote a message to the user (), hinting to a problem with WP:PEACOCK. After a while, another user left a message hinting to the same problem () but we did not get any answer, and the messages were removed.

Finally, this morning we came to an edit war flare on the Francesco Redi page, after I removed the peacock sentence: at the end, I asked to go to the talk page (), but 115ash reverted again (). He left me a message on my talk page (). I answered on its talk page, hinting again to the peacock problem (), but my message was removed again ().

That's why I am forced to bring the problem here, hoping to stop this flood of peacockry. Thanks, Alex2006 (talk) 10:33, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Blocked for one week. The user was blocked for edit warring for 48 hours not long ago, and seems quite impervious to warnings wrt this issue; hence the length of the block. Bishonen | talk 10:55, 6 May 2015 (UTC).

Bad faith and incivility from User:SimonTrew

User:SimonTrew left a comment on Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 April 24#I Am (Leona Lewis album) about me which I found to be bad faith, rude and not civil, saying that I had only opened a redirect for discussion thread because he thought I was implementing WP:OWN. I left a polite and brief comment on SimonTrew's talk (see here). To say that the response I received was completely blown out of proportion, rude and extremely bad faith is an understatement. SimonTrew also attacked me for how I have stylized my name, which was completely irrelevant to the original point. I feel like his response on his talk page was not necessary at all, and it shouldn't go unnoticed. (Note: This is not the first time that SimonTrew has been involved with personal attacks/harassment.)  — ₳aron 11:38, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

That is completely incorrect. Aaron, that is to say User:Calvin999 who chooses a pseudonym (and then uses a strange crossed A so nobody can actually type it) where I use my real name, came and posted stuff on my talk page and I asked him to desist. Continuted to post. Politely I asked him to desist. I said I argue vigorously but politely at my usual hangout, WP:RFD, and everyone knows that. Today actually I used the word Cunt, but that was in relation to the article about Cunt and the redirects to it. WP:NOTCENSORED as I said. I think this user is perhaps a little bit of a baby, I argue vigorously but politely. I asked him to stop posting on my talk page, and he did not, so the incivility is his, not mine. I also said to him to take it here, this was some days ago (he has posted three times since) or shut up. Now he takes it here. So let's get it sorted. In the meantime, I have translated three articles, sorted out numerous redirects, and generally made Misplaced Pages a little better. It is not my fault there is a shit-stirrer in the midst. Si Trew (talk) 12:22, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Oh, if you follow through the link, it says I think this is what is objectionable, if you look at my talk page, I wrote on WP:RFD "It seems like a case of WP:OWNERSHIP to me". Now, one may disagree with that, as User:Calvin999 certainly did, but I hardly think that is a personal attack. That is the normal course of discussion. If you want to play with the big boys, then grow up. Si Trew (talk) 12:31, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I've posted a note (again) on the user's talk page. This is the third time I have held out an olive branch but I doubt it will be accepted, so I just carry on making Misplaced Pages better. I thought that is what we were supposed to do. This is a complete waste of my time, I've taken from WP:PNT an article to translate, and that will tae me a couple of hours. Si Trew (talk) 12:53, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

In short, I am not the one being uncivil here. Try to look at the other, Si Trew (talk) 13:12, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Calvin999 I am unable to see the personal attack in that section you linked to, please provide a diff of it. AlbinoFerret 14:28, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I have worked with Simon in the past, and have found him to be an editor who has a strong point of view (not necessarily a bad thing), but a very hard working editor and one who is useful for bringing about discernment. Perhaps Aaron/Calvin999 took this a bit too personally, perhaps (and I only say perhaps) because Simon made a valid point against Aaron/Calvin's POV which might have hurt a little. I think there is a simple remedy here: move on. Aaron/Calvin I cannot find the specific "attack" anywhere, all I see is Simon being his usual assertive self. Simon, perhaps you do sometimes come across as a little abrasive, but that is no reason not to move on from what I believe will be a relatively unproductive argument here. JZCL 16:31, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

The personal attack is, for some strange reason, stemming from how I have chose to stylise my name here on Misplaced Pages. I really don't understand how I choose to present my username added anything to his point. He is clearly a very angry, antagonised person who can't deal with authority and takes it way too personally. All I said was that I didn't think it was fair or good faith to accuse me of ownership without researching why I had opened a redirect for discussion. Instead of just apologising and saying sorry, SimonTrew instead asked to be reported instead of discussing it on his talk (which I found strange), and the proceeded to attack me for apparently using the wrong 'A', in his opinion, and something about Hebrew or whatnot, in my username, and then telling me that my real life name can't be my real life name because I've spelt it incorrectly. Forgive me, but I think I know what my real life name is. He then accuses me of bad faith because I apparently had the ghoul to even post on his talk in the first place. "You come in bad faith, you get bad faith back." (Didn't realise I wasn't allowed to post on someone's talk in any instance), and then tells me "Take it as you find it. Now get off my talk page." Both quotations by SImonTrew here are bad faith and personal attacks. I replied to his comment, not wanting to report him, but he was still being uncivil. So I did as he asked, and I reported him here. He then proceeds to tell me that he asked me "not to leave messages on my talk page. Now this is the fourth time that you have, since I asked you. So, who is in bad faith,, thee or me? You are just making a rod for your own back, here." (There are only three signatures on his talk of mine, not four, by the way, and one of which is a mandatory ANI notice required to be posted by me to inform him of this thread, apparently that was wrong too. Can only imagine what he would say if I hadn't of notified him). Judging by his four posts here to himself, he has worked it in his head that I was the uncivil one to highlight his error in the first instance, and that he has been an angel to me, which obviously isn't true to anyone who reads my post on his talk. Here is a list of his attacks towards me :

1. "The fact that you deliberatly have a nickname that is hard to type is already in my mind an assumption of bad faith because the usual way to spell it would be Aaron, not with the stupid crossed initial A which is not Hebrew."
2. "You come in bad faith, you get bad faith back. Take it as you find it."
3. "Now get off my talk page. Report me or shut up, I have better things to do."
4. "I think this user is perhaps a little bit of a baby"
5. "It is not my fault there is a shit-stirrer in the midst."
6. "If you want to play with the big boys, then grow up."

How are these insults not personal attacks? Someone please find me an instance where I have called SimonTrew anything. One would be searching for a long time, I can guarantee that. At no point has SImonTrew been "vigorously polite". This kind of behaviour is not acceptable. Misplaced Pages is not censored, but that's in mainspace. On a talk page, regardless of who's it is, it is wholly unacceptable to talk to someone like how SimonTrew has been talking to me. It's not okay for me to leave a polite notice on his talk, but it's apparently okay for him to call me all the things quoted above in the diffs. He has been blocked twice before for personal attacks and harassment, and I don't see how his behaviour is anything but personal attacks toward me. Tell me to "shut up", calling me "a bit of a baby", telling me to "grow up" if I want to play with the "big boys" (I hope he doesn't mean himself), and calling me a "shit stirrer" is disgusting. I've seen editors get blocked for doing and saying a lot less. I hope what I've provided is sufficient, AlbinoFerret. And, {

Excuse me. Yes, all those quotes are on my talk page, which Aaron invaded, when I asked him not to. Now I can blank my talk page and didn't, because I wanted the evidence to show. You personally attacked me, but I never personally attacked you. So do you want me to report you for personal attacks? Because I can see a lot of em. Let it go, Aaron, let it go, and let's get on to improving the encyclopaedia. Si Trew (talk) 19:12, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Please show me the personal attacks against you. I'm really interested to see them. How have I invaded your talk by displaying the unacceptable behaviour you've demonstrated? Albino Ferret asked me to provide diffs, so I have.  — ₳aron 22:57, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

SimonTrew may not realize that casting WP:ASPERSIONS is in itself enough to warrant a block. He should supply diffs - fast - or failing that he should equally fast strike out his accusations. 120.202.249.203 (talk) 10:03, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

@Calvin999 Although we have collaborated in the past, we have also had a fair number of disagreements, so I think that it is unfair that you refer to me as "clearly his friend". And I was talking to him as much as you when I said that I thought it would be best to move on. What is to be gained here? Are you genuinely hoping for him to be blocked or for a one-way interaction ban? All this conversation is providing is a few more kilobytes of memory usage on the Wikimedia servers. These diffs in my opinion are not "inappropriate, rude or inconsiderate". Blunt maybe. Maybe even a bit unexpected. But inappropriate? I think not. I strongly suggest that we just accept our differences and move on. JZCL 19:29, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

These comments aren't ideal but, frankly, I haven't seen editors get blocked for doing and saying a lot less.. As far as blocks for incivility go, the language has to be a lot worse and aggressive for admins to take action but civility is considered a gray area where different editors have different styles of communicating and tolerance for salty language. It is rude and inappropriate but I've been told worse and I bet most other editors have faced even worse comments than this and they didn't bring it to AN/I. I think it's best if you just kept distant from each other, didn't stalk each other or post on each other's talk page. While this might not seem fair to you, Calvin999, in my experience, it is more likely that this thread will get archived than that any admin will take the action you are requesting. Liz 21:08, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

No, I'm not letting it go. The way SimonTrew has spoken to me is appalling and he should be ashamed. It's really reassuring to see several editors think it's acceptable for someone to talk to another editor like this, when all I did was say that I thought the implying of me owning an article was unfair. I can't believe that other editors in this thread think this language and behaviour is acceptable! It's nothing to do with "different styles". This kind of behaviour isn't a "style", it's a problem! If an admin just archives this thread, then clearly there is no regard for the treatment of editors by others. I am really disgusted with the attitude of some comments I have seen here.  — ₳aron 22:57, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I have to agree with Calvin999 who signs himself as Aaron. Sadly, quite often I see good editors feel entitled not to watch their tongue respect other editor's feelings, and because they are good editors, some others tend to side with them, thus reinforcing the problem. From my own experience of a non-native speaker I can attest that while I can write reasonably neutral text on technical subjects, but when communicating on general issues, especially in controversies, I feel that my language is dominated by Hollywood blockbusters, and "bug off" comes easier to me than "please drop this subject", even if I am not particularly belligerent. IMO Aaron's opponent must recognize that people have different tolerance to offensive language and that the spirit of cooperation in wikipedia requires us to respect such simple requests as to change the language register.Staszek Lem (talk) 00:45, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

P.S. On the other hand Aaron IMO deserves a mild slap of trout for his signature, which makes it more difficult to identify the account. I've seen some user why just love to play name game and change their sig every week, so that from plain text it is impossible to see that the same person talks. Some people like to write in non-Latin fonts, etc. Signatures are to make tracking communication easier, rather than to express your fancy. For example, if I want to ping Aaron, I cannot simply type "Aaron" or even "₳aron"; I have to open some his text in an editor and figure out the account name; sometimes in a signature 5 lines long. Such kind of making people jump through the hoops just to say "Hi" may be seen as impolite. Of course you are not restricted in your choice of your sig, but don't be surprised that someone got annoyed with your A crossed, just as you got annoyed with their choice of words. For example, this thread is started by "₳aron 11:38, 6 May 2015 (UTC)", but in the middle I see "User:Calvin999 certainly did" . WTH is this Calvin(1000-1), now? Staszek Lem (talk) 01:01, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

I disagree with your characterization of SimonTrew as a 'good editor'. I've found his rfd contributions to be for the most part unhelpful, to say the least, and I've more than once shaken my head at his repeated displays of incivility, incoherence, immaturity and glaring lack of tact/basic knowledge of our policies, most of which we can observe in his childish responses to this very thread, which, by the way, is just the tip of the iceberg. I've neither the time nor the energy to go dumpster diving, but it would be exceedingly easy to find hundreds more diffs demonstrating his rude behavior. If User:SimonTrew doesn't learn some manners, it's not a question of if, but a question of when his editing privileges are permanently suspended. Those defending his tantrums right now are doing Simon no favors - this editor is in a dire need of a reality check, and the sooner it is delivered, the better off he will be - and that's optimistically assuming he can be reformed. 120.202.249.203 (talk) 09:59, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Here's another:

1. "With the sillies on my talk page". You are continuing your bad faith and harassing me in places other this discussing in this ANI, such as your talk and other's talk.

Also, SimonTrew, I still don't get why you keep saying to yourself that you don't want to discuss this further on your talk, when it's only you posting on your talk. You keep asking me not to post on your talk, but it didn't stop you from invading my talk, did it. You can't use double standards by asking me to stay off of yours when you clearly think it's fine to post on mine. The idea that one syllable in my name was not up to your liking is not bad faith at all. Once again, you have just assumed and presumed that my real name is a pseudonym for some reason. Aaron is my real life name, and I changed my username to a pipe of it because I wanted people to know my real name when addressing me without having to change my multiple pages with my user name so people knew it was still me. I'd been using that stylized signature for a very long time and you are the only person who has ever complained about it. You keep trying to deflect your bad faith onto me, but it's not working. Your language, demeanor and behavior is 100% unacceptable and it's disgusting to see an editor act in this manner. People in this thread are a) commenting on the secondary issue here (my signature) and not addressing SimonTrew vile behavior, and b) Just brushing it off as "his style" because he isn't an new or inexperienced editor; no amount of time and no matter what your edit count is allows for you to act in this way. No one is above anyone here, but you seem to think you're a saint and a victim who has done nothing wrong. You are showing a complete lack of respect, but as I highlighted before, you've got a track record of being blocked for personal attacks and harassment.  — Calvin999 09:46, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Removal of categories due to ethnic nationalism on the Rosie Malek-Yonan page

As of recently there's a disupute on the page about Rosie Malek-Yonan who is of Assyrian descent but was born and raised in Iran (northwestern Iran to be precise, around Urmia), and is therefore an Iranian of Assyrian descent, with Iranian being her nationality and Assyrian her ethnicity. There is no such thing as a nation called Assyria, and while this disruptive concept on Misplaced Pages is pretty common namely the spreading of ethnic nationalism at the expense of the articles quality is relatively common (often seen with ethnicities such as Armenians, Assyrians, Kurds, the latter two being stateless while the former has an extensive diaspora in the Middle East) and even though it gets corrected by people whenever possible, now and then there are those though people who keep persisting on this ethnic nationalism.

Assyrians are a stateless people with an indigenous and native homeland split between Iran, Turkey, Syria, and Iraq. They are native to the soil of all these nations. The definition of Iranian (according Merriam Webster, but also several other dictionaries) means that you're either 1) A native or inhabitant of Iran (which Rosie Malek-Yonan UNQUESTIONABLY is, or 2) referring to the branch of Iranian languages.

Every citizen or native person of Iran, whether Iranian Armenians, Iranian Georgians, Iranian Assyrians, Iranian Azerbaijanis, are Iranian (native/citizen of Iran) by their nationality, always have an Iranian passport, but are respectively Armenian, Georgian, Assyrian, or Azerbaijani by ethnicity. All of these mentioned ethnicities have categories like this , , on their pages.

And now we get to the point where this particulair disruptive user has the main role as why I had to make a section here. On the 26th of April, user 3Bluepenguins removed all the correct categories saying she's Assyrian not Iranian despite Assyrians have no state and Iranian is a nationality, and she was born and raised in Iran. When I reverted that back, several hours later a new user (might be a sockpuppet of 3Bluepenguins) hopped in, stating that she is the actual person the article is about (Rosie Malek Yonan). I subsequently made a section on user 's talk page explaining why this rationale she says holds absolutely no ground, as he/she is constantly removing all categories () that designate her nationality being Iranian and tries to stick to this nonsensical internet ethnic nationalism. She however keeps saying that she is Assyrian and not Iranian (still doesnt get the whole point) and removed the categories once again.

I think I showed enough willingness and good faith in order to explain why he/she is wrong but I dont believe there is any point in continuing an irrational conversational on the respective users talk page. Those removed categories are the correct categories, and need to be reinstated. Ethnic nationalism at the expense of Misplaced Pages's quality and integrity shouldn't be allowed on Misplaced Pages and I hope there are moderators here that can assist in solving this issue. Excuse me for the somewhat long text and while I believe it shouldnt be something that ANI should be usually necessary for, I didn't see any other way as how to solve this rather fast. Thanks - LouisAragon (talk) 16:15, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I am Rosie Malek-Yonan the person this article is about. I know my identity better than anyone else. I am an Assyrian and that is not up for debate or change. I am not Iranian. Nothing about me is Iranian. It is not up to Misplaced Pages and its editors to make that decision or distinction about me. I have notified Misplaced Pages in the past and this vandalism of my identity has got to stop. I am not going to get into a long winded debate about this issue. I have stated the same on the talk page of the article and last week emailed Misplaced Pages directly about this. No Misplaced Pages editor has a right to change my identity from Assyrian to what they think may be appropriate. RMY (talk) 18:12, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Yet "you" were born in Iran, yet "you" were raised up in Iran, yet "you" have had an Iranian passport, yet "your" family stems from a line of Assyrians living in Iran for centuries, yet Assyrians are amongst the native ethnicities in Iran, and yet Iranian is nothing else than a nationality. If "you" (I'm writing "you" over and over as you keep saying the person the article is about is actually you) can prove us than there is a country named Assyria or that "you" were born with an Assyrian passport, I see absolutely no reason as to why even respond on these irrational ethno-nationalistic words you've been repeating over and over, in order to prove something that does not exist and is not conform the rules here. - LouisAragon (talk) 18:34, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

RMY, I can see how this can be delicate. Living somewhere with a large separatist movement will do that. That is why there are separate nationality and ethnicity category trees. Nationality is a purely legal concept (what country controlls the place you come from, what is your passport). In that sense, a separatist Quebecer is still Canadian (much to his annoyance). Ethnicity is where identity plays a role. Your ethnicity is Assyrian, as is reflected in the article. Please understand that no one is suggesting that you consider yourself ethnically Iranian, but only that you come from what is currently Iran. The categories are there to help readers find the articles, that is all. Happy Squirrel(Please let me know how to improve!) 19:03, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

“Nationality is the legal relationship between a person and a state.” I do not have any legal relationship with Iran.

“Nationality affords the state jurisdiction over the person and affords the person the protection of the state.” Iran has no jurisdiction over my person and does not afford me the protection of its laws.

“Nationality is also the status that allows a nation to grant rights to the subject and to impose obligations upon the subject.” Iran cannot grant rights to me nor impose obligations upon me.

Nationality does not equal birthplace. If it did, then how do some people have dual nationality? Were they born in two places?

“Article 15 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that ‘Everyone has the right to a nationality,’” and ‘No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.’”

“Nationality is required for full citizenship” I am not a citizen of Iran. As a citizen of USA, I am, by this definition, a national of the USA.

“Nationality is sometimes used simply as an alternate word for ethnicity or national origin, just as some people assume that citizenship and nationality are identical… In some countries, the cognate word for nationality in local language may be understood as a synonym of ethnicity, or as an identifier of cultural and family-based self-determination, rather than on relations with a state or current government. For example, some Kurds say that they have Kurdish nationality, even though there is no Kurdish sovereign state at this time in history.” If a stateless Kurd can be said to have Kurdish nationality, then, too, is an Assyrian, both Assyrian in ethnicity and nationality.

Misplaced Pages gives further examples by listing people from the former Soviet Union and former Yugoslavia, as having Russian and Serbo-Croation as both their nationality and ethnicity. Misplaced Pages goes on to say that ethnicity was usually determined by the person's native language, and sometimes through religion or cultural factors, such as clothing. My language is Assyrian, as is my culture. My religion is not Moslem, the religion of Iranians.

The same description and explanation is given by Misplaced Pages as to nationalities of China referring to ethnic and cultural groups in China.

Further, “Spanish law recognises the autonomous communities of Andalusia, Aragon, Balearic Islands, Canary Islands, Catalonia, Valencia, Galicia and the Basque Country as ‘nationalities.’”

“National identity is a person’s subjective sense of belonging to one state or to one nation. A person may be a national of a state, in the sense of having a formal legal relationship with it, without subjectively or emotionally feeling a part of that state. Conversely, a person may feel that he belongs to one state without having any legal relationship to it. For example, children who were brought to the U.S. illegally when quite young and grow up there in ignorance of their immigration status often have a national identity of feeling American, despite legally being nationals of a different country.”

We conclude from reading the above, cites from Misplaced Pages, that either Misplaced Pages must change all its definitions and explanations of nationality, or it is a foregone conclusion that I am Assyrian, culturally, ethnically, and nationality-wise. I reiterate that only I can say what is my nationality. This is not up for debate. RMY (talk) 21:29, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Seems to me like the article should say "Place of birth: Iran", "Ethnicity: Assyrian" and "Nationality: American". Thomas.W 21:46, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

RMY says, in effect, that the subject of the article is not an Iranian citizen or national. @LouisAragon: do you have WP:RS that say otherwise? You seem have drawn a conclusion that because she was born in Iran and her family come from Iran that she legally holds Iranian nationality. That would be WP:OR unless there is a reliable source that confirms it to be the case. She could have once held Iranian nationality and now renounced it, in which case she is not an Iranian national. I'm tempted to quote the Duke of Wellington when "accused" of being Irish: being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse. RMY is right, it's a specific legal status (unlike ethnicity, for which we follow the subject's self-declaration) and can't be inferred merely from the subject's biography. @RMY: we can't tell if you are who you say you are (although there are mechanisms for verifying that). The way Misplaced Pages works is we simply replicate what's said in reliable sources, which are defined here. It's mainly a question of what those reliable sources report as being the subject's nationality. It does seem likely, subject to finding confirmation in a reliable source, that her natiinality should be stated as US. Generally, however, this is a straightforward content dispute and shouldn'rt be on this page. DeCausa (talk) 22:04, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

DeCausa, I think I never stated that she still is or is not an Iranian citizen. If I somehow did by mistake well then that was not my intention. Regardless of the fact that she was born and raised in Iran to a native ethnic community there, she nowadays resides in North America. However, the reason why I made this ANI is because RMY doesnt want to agree that those categories should be listed namely Iranian expatriates to the United States, American people of Iranian-Assyrian descent, and two other ones. He/she is constantly removing them by the nonsensical rationale that she is assyrian and not iranian My question is now once again, from what other country did she migrate then to the US, so that we can agree that those categories shouldn't be added? This is basically disagreeing on the fact that she migrated from Iran to the US while being an Iranian citizen, born and raised. No matter whether she teleported there, walked all the way to there, or flew to there, she still originally moved from he native country of birth and that's why those categories need to be added. This is honestly nothing more than spreading of irrational ethnic-nationalism as we see very often on the internet. Please give me, if you dont agree with that those two categories I mentioned some lines above should be added, solid reasons as why to so we can agree with that.

User:RMY, you have no solid grounds to stand on. You are stating that there is nothing Iranian about me Then how in our dear Gods name did you happen to be born in Iran? How did you manage to grow up there in Iran in a native community which in your case happened to be Assyrian, without an Iranian passport? You say your natioanlity is Assyrian Then where on the world map can we find this country? Can you show me an Assyrian passport? I would be really happy to see that as I like Assyrian people and history. However, with what reality we know, this is time wasting at its best and I think there are enough other Wiki moderators and editors who have enough first-hand experience with internet ethnic nationalism on here, which in most cases is nothing more than to prove something that does not exist, or giving some non-existing fluff to a stateless ethnicity to make them look more distinct and real.

PS: Moderators, you're allowing more of this stuff by RMY? While this ANI is going on; - LouisAragon (talk) 00:47, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Thomas W. seems to have come up with a sensible compromise. LouisAragon, please don't run off into these text heavy posts. It comes across as quite aggressive, which obviously isn't your intention (AGF and all). Blackmane (talk) 01:02, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Blackmane, excuse me if it looked like that, as it indeed definetely isnt my intention. Its just that we're all spending too much time on something that doesnt need that much time and effort. I agree with Tomas W.'s rationale as well, which is basically what I meant from the start. It just has to be expressed in the categories again as well on the article which RMY has removed. That's all. Regards - LouisAragon (talk) 01:32, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps, an RFC could be raised on the article talk page with Thomas W.'s recommendation as the starting point? Blackmane (talk) 02:00, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

What surprised me looking at this page is seeing that she was categorized as "American" which makes Iranian nationality irrelevant. But I could find no statement that she has actually become an American citizen, just that she has worked in America. Liz 02:52, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Project advice for no movies in navboxes

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

We have a small situation that is affecting many projects and there navboxes. User:Robsinden has recently been removing all movies from all navboxes according to local project advice page as seen at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers#Filmography navbox templates. The problem is that the editors is claiming that this advice allows them to remove all movies from all navboxes including ones made by other projects....thus leading to editwars in a few places. The editors has been directed to read over WP:Advice pages and WP:CONLEVEL and asked to follow BRD while editors talk it out...but to no avail still reverting at will. I would agree that there is a local consensus not to have navboxes devoted to films....but this is a far stretch from all movies being banned from all navboxes. I simply dont see how one type of article can be omitted from templates all together because of one projects POV. Other projects have there own ideas of what is best for there topics. We need to find a nice median....in this case I would say let the other projects have the links they wish in the navboxes they created ....but dont spam the templates in the films. The spamming of templates seems to be the motivation behind the projects POV on this......in my POV its a losing battle that will just cause us to loss editors in the long run. What I am looking for is community input on whats the best way forward. Do we let this editor continue to remove all movies from all templates based on one project advice page that has not gone through the WP:PROPOSAL process....or do we let each project decide for themselves what's best for navigating there own topics. Is the advice from WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers binding on all other projects as indicated by Robsinden edit summaries i.e Template:Madonna: Revision history. What is best here for the community? -- Moxy (talk) 16:35, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

This is purely a content dispute which does not require the intervention of an administrator - you should note the instructions about this at the top of this page. You should start a discussion at either Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Film or Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Film though not both. MarnetteD|Talk 17:12, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Oops my mistake. I see that things are already being discussed at the Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers. If you want more input you should start a WP:RFC there. MarnetteD|Talk 17:15, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

What MarnetteD said. Currently Moxy is going against consensus, so I hope this doesn't WP:BOOMERANG on them. Lugnuts 18:05, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

What? I am not the one involved in the edit wars. I am here trying to resolve an editwar problem that covers many many articles and many projects....before those involved get blocked. Productive comments is what I am looking for..As per MarnetteD will form a RfC. -- Moxy (talk) 21:29, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Legal threat

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

See User talk:70.128.120.202, where the user threatens to file a petition in court if they're not unblocked. BMK (talk) 23:14, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Between MaxSem and Ohnoitsjamie, they have taken care of it. Rangeblocked with tpa revoked.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 23:26, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

It would be interesting to see an anonymous editor expose his personal info to the public, all for the sake of a meritless lawsuit. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:10, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Of course, any hints legal threats must be taken seriously, and this one is handled properly, but I encourage everybody to read and enjoy this "legal threat"; a great piece of a Lawyer joke. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:33, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Really? Is it really necessary to take every threat to "sue Misplaced Pages" seriously? It's usually just a frustrated editor venting who has no idea what is exactly involved in filing a suit against an organization. I just think it's said more to get a reaction ("listen to me, I'm serious") rather than an actual legal threat that will be acted upon. Liz 02:44, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Liz, it really doesn't matter what the editor's "real" purpose is, we can't get inside their head, so we can't know that. WP:NLT explicitly says:

If you have a dispute with the community or its members, use dispute resolution. If you do choose to use legal action or threats of legal action to resolve disputes, you will not be allowed to continue editing until it is resolved and your user account and or IP address may be blocked. (emphasis added)

That's pretty straightforward. BMK (talk) 03:54, 7 May 2015 (UTC)