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Non-partisan?

From everything I've seen, this is a conservative group, aimed at lowering taxes and trade barriers. Does this group actually offer anything to liberals of any sort?

Non-partisan doesn't mean non-ideological. It doesn't even mean that the groups opinions are somehow equidistant between the major parties or political groups in a country. It just means it has no connection to political parties, doesn't endorse or support parties, either doesn't endorse political candidates or its endorsements aren't exclusive to a specific party or parties. twfowler (talk) 18:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah right! I bet they don't exclusively endorse GOP candidates and causes. If it stomps like an elephant, has hooves and a trunk, it's gray.....then it's an elephant. "Americans for Prosperity" is definitely partisan. Just because they claim not to be doesn't make it so! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.169.69.130 * - non sequitur note: elephants have padded feet, not hooves, although at the WWF website they call each toe/toenail unit a hoof.(talk) 08:33, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Typically when people hear "non partisan" they assume an entity with no ideological bias. AFP has always shown a conservative bias. And furthermore, if they are non-partisan, I ask you this: what Democratic agenda have they supported? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.167.123.69 (talk) 16:14, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Many terms used in this article are subjective and ambiguous. Another comment: to say they are against a government takeover of healthcare implies that this is what the federal government is proposing, when all indicators say this is not the case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.131.83.97 (talk) 07:20, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Do elephants have hooves? Hmm. Find the answer at https://www.bing.com/search?q=do+elephants+have+hooves%3F&PC=U316&FORM=CHROMN. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 14:19, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Rick Snyder resources

From Manuel Moroun and the Political activities of the Koch family ...

• Is Span Plan a Bridge Too Far? Car Makers Seek New Link to Canada, but Some Say Michigan Shouldn't Back It by Joseph B. White in October 10, 2011 Wall Street Journal.
• Detroit Span Owner Keeps Canada Crossing With Koch Aid September 16, 2011 in Bloomberg BusinessWeek by Chris Christoff; regarding "Matty" Manuel Moroun (who beat out Warren Buffett to buy the Ambassador Bridge more than three decades ago) and son's fight against Governor of Michigan Rick Snyder's New International Trade Crossing bridge plans.

See Political activities of the Koch family. 97.87.29.188 (talk) 23:08, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Sources add, thank you! Hugh (talk) 16:26, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Sourcing

This edit claims that the source is inadequate because it's a blog. This is not the case. Please see WP:NEWSBLOG. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 01:58, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

WSJ source and content summary added, thank you! 17:16, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

External links

I was shocked to see the NGOLinks template removed. It appears that person didn't know the difference between searches and database lookups. I trust the template will not be again removed, as it includes profiles, charity filings, fact-checking, financial information and media coverage. This is important for government and political transparency. We use CongLinks for legislators, and this is the equivalent for organizations. 71.23.178.214 (talk) 05:52, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Please see our guiding page on external links. Thargor Orlando (talk) 13:34, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

AFP and polifact

I dont belive this content is necessary. Polifact is just another news org, and is only marginally different than an opinion site. As such, i dont believe their opinion on AFP deserves special attention here. Bonewah (talk) 19:29, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

AFP and AFP Foundation – clarification needed

The article section about AFP consisting of two entities has been tagged cn. In looking at CharityNavigator, only the foundation comes up. CharityWatch has listings for the two entities. Each listing has different classifications. Each listing has the same link to the AFP website. – S. Rich (talk) 18:58, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

I think CharityNavigator and CharityWatch are basically primary source reprints, and like IMDB and other similar consolidators of such data they are not good RS. SPECIFICO talk 22:52, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Additional well-referenced content has been added to the "structure" and "funding" subtopics clarifying the distinction between the AFP and the AFP Foundation. Thank you! Hugh (talk) 16:33, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Tea Party

I see that there is an Discretionary Santions alert for this article at the top now (related to the Tea Party Movement). I'm sure there is a connection to the Tea Party, perhaps even a really strong one, but there isn't anything about it in the actual article. Capitalismojo (talk) 20:00, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Wait, there is a category link at the bottom of the article page (Category:Tea Party) but there isn't anything in the body of the article. Capitalismojo (talk) 20:02, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Funny that, huh? No mention of the tpm in the WP article on the flagship org of the tpm. WP is funny that way sometimes. Are you considering deleting the cat? Hugh (talk) 20:11, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, no, I don't think so. I seem to recall that this is an organization involved in the tea party. I am not sure it is the flagship but I do think it is deep in there. We should find some refs for its participtation, I think. Capitalismojo (talk) 20:58, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

I was able to quickly find and add some high-quality reliable source references that made the obvious tpm/AFP relationship explicit. I was able to find them quickly by going through the edit history and looking for large, red, negative deletions. Hugh (talk) 13:58, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Looks pretty good to me, well done. Capitalismojo (talk) 14:27, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Direct quotations

It seems to me that we are overusing the direct quotations to the point where this is beginning to look like a newspaper or magazine piece rather than an encyclopedia article. See some tips at Misplaced Pages:Quotations#Overusing quotations. What do others think, and perhaps interested editors might decide to remove some of the direct quotes they have added? Sincerely, BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 20:27, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your edits and comments. I've removed one quote, combined two, paraphrased one that was not a good direct quote, and moved another to where it is more relevant. Hugh (talk) 22:18, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

The lead

I invite interested editors to take a look at the article as it has developed and to write a draft WP:Lead for discussion here. The current one does not hit all the bases. Sincerely, BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 05:52, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your engagement. I agree the lede is less than optimal. I'm wiki-slothing away at the body. I would identify among the to-dos better coverage of right-to-work, in Michigan in particular, and expansion of the policy section, including refs to AFP op-eds in major outlets and AFP activities. The lede needs work but can we work together on the body for a bit longer? Thanks. Hugh (talk) 18:29, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree it is better to write the body and then draft the lead to reflect what the body says. I am putting a Construction tag at the top, and whenever an editor envisions a stretch of continuous work ahead, he or she should top it with an In use tag. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 14:31, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your patience. This article will never be done but I can't see any more major restructuring or expansion. Thank you for holding off on everyone's favorite part, the lede, for a few weeks. Please feel free to take a stab at a lede. May I suggest we collaborate in situ in article space if it is just us and workshop on the talk page if there is wider interest in collaborating. I think we have a decent summary of reliable sources with some decent topic sentences in subsections which will facilitate a good lede WP:CREATELEAD. I ask that we please try to avoid citations in the lede. If anyone has a source that might help with the lede, please try to integrate it with the body first. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 16:56, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Great start, thanks. Let's try for a lede in Misplaced Pages voice. Let's see if we can agree on a great 1st sentence, 1st paragraph and great lede. Ambitious, maybe. AFP does not get to write their own lede, nor does FactCheck or anyone else, that's our job. No quotes from AFP website in lede. I asked for support from collaborators on the basic idea of no new material in the lede, so there is no need for citations in the lede. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 00:40, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

This is not a new organization, it has over a decade of very eventful history. We have plenty of things the subject has done to summarize in the lede. The organization's goals, their own self-declared goals or as interpreted by another (FactCheck), are appropriate in the article, but at this late stage, not in the lede, at least not directly, but maybe indirectly by letting the facts of their history a speak WP:Let the facts speak for themselves. Thanks. Hugh (talk) 01:00, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

It's more than OK to repeat or paraphrase stuff from the body in the lede. For now I'm going to restore the "overview' section and leave the lede alone. Please copy or paraphrase content from the body to the lede rather than move content and refs from the body to lede. Thanks. Hugh (talk) 01:04, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I do not subscribe to your approach; nor do I subscribe to WP:CREATELEAD. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:24, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Nor do I. The essay (WP:CREATELEAD), I find, was unhelpful. Capitalismojo (talk) 04:29, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

May I ask, how do you create ledes? May I ask, can you be more specific about your issues with Misplaced Pages essay WP:CREATELEAD? Hugh (talk) 06:14, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

The essay was quite thorough. Very thoughtful. Seems to follow WP guidelines almost perfectly. I believe Hugh should write up a lead based on its principles and post it in articlespace. If anybody objects to it, we can talk about it here and maybe improve it. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 07:30, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Although I might suggest holding off on the lead until the rest of the article is set. Personally, I haven't been able to look at it from a distance because I have been so busy making fussy little edits to get rid of direct quotes and tighten up sentences, etc. I wouldn't mind somebody looking at the big picture to see if the piece is actually organized in a logical way. I would not accept moving anything from the body to the lead because the lead, as has been noted, should simply sum up what is said in the body. Moving info from one place to another within the article might be a good idea if anything is definitely out of order. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 08:12, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I subscribe to WP:LEAD, which is a Misplaced Pages guideline and reflects the consensus of the community, rather than WP:CREATELEAD, which reflects the thoughts of a single editor. WP:LEADCITE describes how citations may be put in the lead section. WP:LEAD#Relative emphasis describes the extent to which a lead's emphasis and content may differ from the body. A hard-and-fast rule that content may not be moved from the body to the lead is arbitrary, formalistic, contrary to WP:LEAD, and in some cases leads to a more poorly written article. In this case, we have both a lead section and a section entitled "Overview," which is bizarre and redundant in light of the fact that a lead section is an overview. (It's right there in the second and third sentences of WP:LEAD.) The contents of the "Overview" section should either be moved into the lead or deleted. Finally, from a process standpoint, I object to having Hugh write up an entirely new lead to be discussed at talk. Changes should be made incrementally in the article space to facilitate BRD. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:41, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

@BeenAroundAWhile: Thank you for your recent edits. Thanks for your careful read. Please make another pass at the body. I think the body is looking well. Thank you for your support on the lede. Sigh, I thought this might be straightforward, but it rarely is, is it? Silly me. There was wisdom in the suggestion of talk page drafting. I will put together a few sentences. Hugh (talk) 17:07, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

@DrFleischman: Thank you for your feedback. On your suggestion I have move content and refs from the overview section to where they fit better. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 17:51, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Americans for Prosperity (AFP) is one of the most influential conservative political advocacy groups in the United States. AFP was founded in 2004 by businessmen and philanthropist brothers David H. Koch and Charles Koch of Koch Industries and remains the Koch’s primary political operation. After the inauguration of President Barack Obama, AFP helped transform the Tea Party movement into a political force. AFP helped defeat climate change regulation and organized significant opposition to Obama administration initiatives including the economic stimulus and health care reform. AFP opposed the Affordable Care Act and advocated its repeal and opposed the expansion of Medicare. AFP played a key role in the achievement of the 2010 Republican majority in the United States House of Representatives. AFP opposed raising the minimum wage and advocated for right to work laws and for limits on the collective bargaining rights of unions. AFP was a major producer of political television advertising. Other key AFP methods included mailings, canvassing, web publishing, online petitions, legislator scoring, and themed bus tours and hot air balloons. AFP was cited by Obama and others as a politically active non-profit lacking transparency.

This seems to me like a reasonable start at summarizing the main points of the article. Probably a bit short yet. Lede sentence as per my good colleague DrFleischman. Comments? Thanks. Hugh (talk) 19:04, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

The lead should be broken up into multiple paragraphs. I suggest three. Typically for political advocacy groups, the first paragraph includes a description of the organization's ideology and stated mission. The second paragraph can describe AFP's specific policy positions and accomplishments. A third paragraph can address AFP's organization and operations, including the Kochs' role, methods, and possibly transparency issues. The proposed sentence on transparency doesn't appear neutral, but that can be addressed separately. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:47, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

The lede summarizes the notable aspects of the subject. The subject's own statement of its mission belongs in the article but not in the lede. This subject is not notable for its own mission statement. The subject does not get to write its own lede. The notable aspects of this organization are exactly what it has done. The subject of this article is defined by what it has done, not by what it says about itself. This organization is unique in many ways. This organization is not a think tank and the lede should not present it as one. It is a political organization that works in the streets and in elections. Its policy positions are a distant secondary to its activities. That this organization is actualizing on a coherent political philosophy is just one of several viewpoints on this organization, other viewpoints include that it is implementing opposition to Obama and another is it is implementing the Koch's agenda, and other viewpoints, and our lede should not favor one viewpoint. The Koch's role is one of the single most important aspects of the notability of the subject of this article, and belongs in the first sentence, or, failing that, in the second, as here, but certainly not in a subsequent paragraph. The founding date is best in the first sentence, but failing that certainly very early, as here, and while we're on the topic of the founding we need to mention the highly notable actors. The tension between the views of the subject of this article between grassroots vs. special interest dominants reliable sources, as does the extent of its political activities with respect to its operation as a non-for-profit that does not disclose its contributors; of course this needs to be covered in the lede. Hugh (talk) 20:23, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm evidently not going to get through to you. Just post your lead. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:05, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind seeing a draft of a lead as described by User:DrFleischman, either on this Talk page maybe first posted in Articlespace as WP:Bold, revert, discuss. Or a new one to be proposed by User:HughD. Or – wait a minute - was that your proposed lead in the rather thick indented paragraph above, Hugh? If so, I invite you to trim out the repetitions (AFP, for example) by using pronouns and move it to a new section below, where it would stand out without all the discussion we had just above. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 22:02, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Please see revised draft, below. Thank you! Hugh (talk) 22:36, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Too much detail

We are getting too much detail in the article. For example, it isn't necessary to tell what is wrong or right about individual television commercials unless that fact has a serious effect on the organization. Not only is it a stress on the reader, but it is also a stress on any editor who comes along and has to read it all and check the sources. Yours, BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 15:53, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks again for your edits and engagement. The article is looking better & better. I agree coverage of the Holmes ad was way heavy. I inherited it. I might have made it a little longer in trying to make it more neutral. Thanks for taking the scalpel to it. But no coverage at all of it is too light, I restored one short sentence with a wikilink. Many of our readers may know of this subject only through their tv ads. Whatever else you say about AFP, their over-the-top tv ads get rs coverage! If you are checking sources I would be grateful if you had time to re-paraphrase if you see something too close. Hugh (talk) 00:30, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

I may have made it worse by expanding some of the voter fraud allegations-related stuff. But I think it reflects the sources used better now. Is it too much text in general? AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 12:56, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments and edits. According to our page size tool, this article is at Prose size (text only): 26 kB (4151 words) "readable prose size." According to our DYK check tool, this article is at Prose size (text only): 27058 characters (4151 words) "readable prose size." This article is well within our page size guidelines WP:SIZERULE. There is no justification in page size guidelines at this time for the deletion of content and references. In any case, deleting details from the funding section is an unusual place to start trimming. I am planning to further improve and expand this article, in the course of which I plan to add additional detail. Please comment if you have reasonable concerns about specific areas of undue weight such as the Holmes ad. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 20:06, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

I apologize, but what is unusual about it? It just seemed to be a bit list-y. This is clearly not a complete list of donors, so how is the notability of individual contributions judged when deciding what is to be added to the list? AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 21:24, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Donors are added haphazardly. Capitalismojo (talk) 21:34, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. No need to apologize. No, it is not a complete list of donors. The donors added reflect reliable sources as per WP:DUE. Donors are not added haphazardly. All of the donors included were considered noteworthy by noteworthy reliable sources. We will never have a complete list. Fortunately, by WP policy a complete list is not required before we can mention any. Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 22:07, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

There is no rhyme or reason that the donors are included here. The slightest mention in RS is enough to get a donor added here, whether it makes sense in the context of an encyclopedia article. The concept of proper weight has yet to be addressed in the context of the article. Capitalismojo (talk) 22:14, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, to clarify the potential issue as I see it, is that WP is, after all, an encyclopedia and not an WP:INDISCRIMINATE collection of stats. We should be able to demonstrate why particular stats are of lasting encyclopedic interest. Since we can't provide a complete list, more comprehensive year-by-year funding/expenditure totals can be found elsewhere in other sources which inherently provide better informational value for interested individuals. Particularly without any context or explanation, more-or-less randomly selected details are of limited value in an encyclopedic entry. This certainly doesn't apply only to the funding section, but I thought it a useful mindset to help begin pruning some of the "excessive details" we're talking about here. AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 11:32, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

The article is not long WP:SIZERULE. Please do not delete content with an edit summary saying the page is too long. I am actively working on expanding this article. It is going to get longer. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 08:17, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

I shortened the "Events" section. The details about the two events can be placed in the articles about the events, not here in an article about the organization that sponsored them. And it didn't seem to me that we needed subheaders for this section. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 16:38, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

"The details about the two events can be placed in the articles about the events" Thank you for your edits. I agree the two events probably did not justify their own, one-paragraph, few sentence subsections. The two events do not have their own articles. It is a normal and natural process that related articles split off of other articles as content accumulates. This article is a long way away from the point at which splits for article size are necessary. Meanwhile, it is inappropriate to delete relevant content from this article justified by a judgement that the content would be better in a different article that does not exist, and your deletions actually frustrate the possibility of the two events achieving independent notability. You are more than welcome to begin articles on the Defending the Dream Summit and RightsOnline, and then embrace summary style here. Even then, a certain level of coverage of those two topics will always be appropriate in this article. Thank you again for your continued collaboration. Hugh (talk) 17:25, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Respectfully, collaborators are reminded, as you probably already know, "Americans for Prosperity" is the lowest-level, most detailed article on its subject. Currently, it is not the parent article of any sub-articles. And at a prose size of 30 kB "readable prose size" this article is well below the point at which splits are generally considered WP:AVOIDSPLIT. When we delete detailed content from this article, we may be deleting it from the encyclopedia if there is nowhere else for it to go. "Too detailed here" is an editorial position we are more familiar with in discussing the pros & cons between a parent article and a sub-article WP:SUMMARY, rather than between our encyclopedia and noteworthy reliable sources. WP:DETAIL reminds us "some readers need a lot of details. "May I respectfully suggest our discussion on content issues be framed within our due/undue weight policy. Specific comments on the due weight of a specific item of content are of course welcome. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 19:56, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Let's all take this pledge

I am vowing to follow the guideline at Misplaced Pages:Edit_warring#How experienced editors avoid becoming involved in edit wars. I hope I succeed. Sincerely, BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 16:20, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Also, I looked at this for guidance: Misplaced Pages:Ownership_of_articles#Resolving ownership issues. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 16:24, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

May 2015 article size checkpoint

According to our page size tool, the article is Prose size (text only): 33 kB (5119 words) "readable prose size." This is roughly 2/3 of our page size rule of thumb of where article length begins to be a concern WP:PAGESIZE. Thanks. Hugh (talk) 16:41, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I believe the only editor discussing WP:PAGESIZE is you. I could be mistaken, but my understanding is the concerns discussed above in Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Too much detail were about WP:NOT. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:02, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

In one of my Edit summaries I complained that the article was getting to be "too long." I guess that is a complaint about its size. It is a bit shorter now and, considering the topic, at this point it seems OK, athough I am sure some more could be taken out or tightened up. It takes more time to write short than it does to write long. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 20:16, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. Of course comments on due weight in proportion to reliable sources are welcome, please be specific and kindly start a separate thread as an issue distinct from article size. Thank you! Hugh (talk) 20:32, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

You seem to have a blind spot for WP:NOT. I don't know why you won't acknowledge that policy. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:30, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your frank feedback on my understanding of policy. Here on this article talk page, may I please ask you to be more specific, in separate threads, with your article content concerns, aside from article hatting and policy citing? Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 19:03, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

I have, but you've been belittling and dismissing my concerns, as well as similar concerns by others, which makes it difficult to get anything done. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:35, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Draft lead

Americans for Prosperity (AFP) is one of the most influential conservative political advocacy groups in the United States. Founded in 2004 by businessmen and philanthropist brothers David H. Koch and Charles Koch of Koch Industries, AFP remains the Koch’s primary political operation. After the inauguration of President Barack Obama, AFP helped transform the Tea Party movement into a political force. AFP organized significant opposition to Obama administration initiatives, including helping to defeat climate change regulation, protesting the economic stimulus, opposing the Affordable Care Act and advocating its repeal, and opposing the expansion of Medicare. The organization played a key role in the achievement of the 2010 Republican majority in the United States House of Representatives. AFP opposed raising the minimum wage and advocated for right to work laws and for limits on the collective bargaining rights of unions. AFP was a major producer and purchaser of political television advertising. Other important methods included mailings, canvassing, web publishing, online petitions, legislator scoring, and themed bus tours and hot air balloons. Their scope of operations, multiple simultaneous active campaigns at both state and national levels, has been compared to a political party. AFP was cited by Obama and others as a politically active non-profit lacking transparency.

Comments? More interested in coverage of the most notable aspects of the subject in the body rather than in punctuation and format at this point. Thanks. Hugh (talk) 22:18, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

I edited the above and I agree that it should replace the lead now on the article. The proposed lead, about the same size as the one just above but in two paragraphs, would be:

Americans for Prosperity (AFP), founded in 2004, is one of the most influential conservative political-advocacy groups in the United States. Established by businessmen and philanthropist brothers David H. Koch and Charles Koch, AFP is the Kochs' primary political operation.

After the inauguration of President Barack Obama in 2008, AFP helped transform the Tea Party movement into a political force. It organized significant opposition to administration initiatives, including climate-change regulation, the Affordable Care Act, an economic-stimulus package and the expansion of Medicare. It played a key role in the Republican electoral victory for the House of Representatives in 2010. It opposed raising the federal minimum wage, and it advocated for right-to-work laws and for limits on labor unions' collective-bargaining rights. AFP was a major producer and purchaser of political television advertising. It also engaged in mailings, canvassing, Internet publishing, online petitions and vote-scoring of legislators. It sponsored themed political bus tours and the floating of hot-air balloons bearing messages of advocacy. AFP's range of operations and its multiple simultaneous active campaigns at state and national levels have drawn comparison to those of a political party. AFP was cited by Obama and others as a politically active non-profit that lacks transparency. Its supporters say it is engaged in political free speech.

I see no problem in using this as the lead and working on it as the article changes over time. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 01:04, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your support. The 2-graph version is better, thanks. My only quibble is with the last few words, I might change "engaged in political free speech" to "educating voters on issues," for which we have multiple refs and a good quote. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 02:43, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Additional comments? Hugh (talk) 15:58, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

There are a number of things I'm not crazy about, but it can be posted and then we can tinker with it more easily. One specific thing I'd say is that the last two sentences are vacuous and should be sharpened (see WP:ENEMY) or removed. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:23, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Dr. Fleischman, I'm not crazy about it. Especially the last two sentences. I suggest not posting it til its worked out though. Capitalismojo (talk) 16:28, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your support. Thank you both for your recent article space edits to the lede. Please reconsider collaborating with us here on talk. Hugh (talk) 16:41, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you again for your support on the draft lead. With this consensus I will add all but the last 2 sentences to article space, and I hope to hear from my colleagues on those last 2 sentences here in talk space. Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 16:57, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

I was saddened by your refusal to collaborate in talk space. In good faith, I added the draft lede minus the last two sentences with which you expressed reservations. After an hour or so in article space, you deleted two additional sentences, beyond those you expressed concern with here in talk, two sentences available above to you on the talk page for your review and comment. I did not understand content deletion to be subsumed in your definition of "tinker." I am asked by policy to assume you are not baiting for an edit war, but I find myself wondering. Hugh (talk) 19:59, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Of course the subject of this article is notable for many significant innovations in methods, innovations copiously documented in reliable sources and in the body of the article. We could start with the use of themed bus tours, not unique but highly characteristic of the subject of this article. Then there's the hot air balloon motif, almost a trademark. The subject of this article rose to prominence in part by its early adoption of the internet, and even trained other including tea party members on the political uses of the internet. Notification to legislators of legislation included on their score card and the implication of well-funded primaring was key to their success. All of which in the body and in RS. All of which you might have objected to earlier but seem to prefer article space drama. Hugh (talk) 20:13, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Of course the subject of this article's well-documented highly notable dominant role in producing and paying for the airing of television political advertising belongs in the lede. Hugh (talk) 20:28, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

No baiting here. I consider your comments highly combative and I respectfully ask that you knock it off and start editing in a more collaborate manner that tries to accommodate the views and approaches of your colleagues. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:39, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Revised draft of last two sentences of lede

Their scope of operations, in terms of national and state as well as breadth of issues, staff size, number of donors, and budgets have drawn comparisons to those of a traditional political party. Obama and others raised concerns regarding the lack of transparency of AFP with respect to the extent of thier political activities while operating as a tax-exempt non-profit, in contrast with political action committees.

Comments? Hugh (talk) 21:39, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Non-neutral and teasing (see WP:LEAD). There is nothing in this proposed language suggestive of noteworthiness beyond what would one would expect about any other high profile conservative advocacy group. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:52, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

How would you put it? Specifically what do you consider non-neutral? teasing? We are in the lede now, the issue notability, not noteworthiness; noteworthiness "weight" is the body. Here we are summarizing the body. These statements in the lede summarize material in the body. What statement would you add next to summarize the largest swath of the body that is not already summarized in the lede? Hugh (talk) 23:24, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

As I already said, I would remove this content. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:28, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

What statement would you next add to the lede to summarize the largest swath of the body that is not already summarized in the lede? Hugh (talk) 00:09, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

I'll give it a look in detail, but my answer might end up being "no statement." --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:15, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Mark Block

This was a Wisconsin story. I recall it vividly. It encompassed almost a week of articles, perhaps 5 days. It involved a former employee of AFP. Former. AFP's involvement was appaerntly limited to having paid travel expenses of the former employee to meetings in DC. This is a Herman Cain article story (possibly, it may even be undue there), it is certainly WP:UNDUE here. Capitalismojo (talk) 16:27, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

By the way, as an aside, Block is famous for his Cain campaign video, possibly the worst presidential ad ever. Google it on youtube. Unbelievable. Capitalismojo (talk) 16:27, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your edits and collaboration. I've restored a paragraph blanking that included multiple reliable source references including Time magazine, The Washington Post, and the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal. Please suggest an alternative summarization of these reliable sources rather than paragraph blank. Our readers may well come to this article to understand these controversial transactions. I agree in terms of word count the converage is perhaps a bit much, but a certain amount of background is necessary to understand AFP's explanation. For the record coverage of this episode pre-dates my personal involvement in editing this article. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:31, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

I will restore the refs and edit to emphasis AFP's role and de-emphasis Block's role per your comments. Please look at it and discuss before paragraph blanking and deleting reliable sources. That no federal prison time resulted from this episode is irrelevant; coverage in major news outlets means it is due weight here. Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 16:36, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

I suggest not. Capitalismojo (talk) 16:48, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Is this paragraph included to show that AFP can get scammed or rolled like other people? I really don't see the value in the inclusion here. A former employee creates charities with names curiously close to AFP, apparently siphons off major donors away from AFP, then send bills AFP for some of his travel. Is this encyclopedic? I wouldn't say so. It was essentially a one day story at the time, one that centered on Herman Cain's campaign manager Mark Block. This is entirely peripheral to AFP. Add it to the Cain article perhaps, it would fit better there. It clearly doesn't here. Capitalismojo (talk) 16:48, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Let me go further, this organization has been around for at least a decade. Given traditional high-level turnover rate of campaign staff there are probably (50 states x 10 years x ~5 state director turnover rate) as many as 2,500 former AFD state Exec Directors running around. Are we going to add articles on each one that gets mentioned in RS? Capitalismojo (talk) 17:07, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

I am deeply disheartened at your line of reasoning here, which I recognize as reductio ad absurdum. I am sad because I think you understand WP:DUE better than this. This content is not a camel's nose that will inevitably result in the ruination of the encyclopedia. If you are aware of the activities of AFP staff coverage in Time magazine or the Washington Post or other major newspapers not already in the article, please share. I am asked by policy to assume you are not baiting me into an edit war. Hugh (talk) 18:11, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Too late, you are both already in an edit war. Please stop, both of you. And Hugh, please try harder to assume good faith and to understand Capitalismojo's arguments. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:24, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree Block is not important here, although he is as you say a colorful character for sure. Also, the charity established by a state dir of AFP while a state dir of AFP is here only by way of background. Reliable sources document charges of AFP using an intermediary to fund the Cain campaign, and AFP's explanation. This episode is difficult to explain without mentioning the alleged intermediary charity at least indirectly, and the fact that the alleged intermediary was created by an AFP state dir is part of the noteworthiness of this episode. It is not a one-day story. Yes, by the time this came to light he was no longer state dir, but he was at the time he set up the alleged intermediary, and oh, btw, he left to join Cain's campaign, not included here. The value here to our readers is that a reader, coming across one of the early articles regarding the controversy, comes to WP to get the real story, and sees AFP's explanation. When Time and WaPo and the Mil J-S cover a story our hand is more or less forced, regardless of our personal assessment of the net net impact on the world. I have reduced the weight on your concerns, including removing direct reference and wl to Block. If you can suggest an alternative summarization of the sources that manages to tell the story clearly, please do so, but paragraph and rs blanking is not an option. Hugh (talk) 17:23, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Capitalismojo that this story is of limited relevance to our AFP article. It seems to be more about Block, Prosperity USA, and Cain. There may be some AFP angle to this story that merits inclusion, but so far I haven't seen it. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:02, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Block is gone. Direct reference to Block and the wikilink to Block was not included in the content revised as per your concerns, leaving an episode involving alleged contributions by the subject of this article to a presidential political campaign in conlfict with their status as a charity, an episode manifest in multiple, well-formatted, available online, reliable sources. Yet it was deleted by Capitalismojo in his 2nd revert. Kindly suggest an alternative summarization of the multiple, well-formatted, available online, reliable sources which Capitalismojo deleted. Thank you in advance for your collaboration. Hugh (talk) 18:19, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Removing Block doesn't solve the problem. I'm not aware of any summarization that would make this story sufficiently relevant to this article to merit its inclusion. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:26, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

It's not your awareness that makes a summarization of this story relevant here, it's the coverage in multiple highly noteworthy and highly reliable international news sources. Hugh (talk) 18:47, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Not everything revolves around the number of reliable sources. Please unplug your ears and listen to the feedback of your fellow editors. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:10, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

I suggest that this material is not relevant in this article. This person was a former employee. The argument that because RS refs mention that he was a former employee that somehow makes it important in an encyclopedia article here doesn't wash. This is WP:NOT what should be included. Random trivia is unhelpful to the reader. Include this information at the Mark Block or Herman Cain articles if you think they needs additional material. Not here. Capitalismojo (talk) 13:14, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

AFP-intermediary-Cain transactions

Multiple, well-formatted, readily-available online, highly noteworthy and highly reliable references were deleted. Sources include Time, The Washington Post, and the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal. The associated content is a neutral, three-sentence summary of the sources. The content concerns an episode regarding allegations of the subject of this article contributing to a presidential campaign via an intermediary, in conflict with their status as tax exempt. The content included the response of the subject of this article to the allegations. Collaborators are respectfully asked for an alternative summarization of the sources rather than paragraph blanking and the deletion of noteworthy, international reliable sources. Thank you in advance. Hugh (talk) 18:34, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

This is disruptive. This subject is already being addressed in the discussion directly above. Your use of please and thank you is nothing but lipstick. You want to include this content, then you come up with a formulation and a basis for its inclusion that satisfies the consensus. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:14, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Sources:

• Bice, Daniel (October 30, 2011). "State firm's cash to Herman Cain may breach federal campaign, tax laws". Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. Retrieved March 23, 2015. one document says the group was to be paid $5,000 for the costs associated with Cain's speech in September 2010 to the conservative Right Nation rally in Chicago, an event that the records say Cain attended at the request of Americans for Prosperity. The Cain campaign later used a segment from that speech in a campaign ad.
• Benjamin, Mark (November 1, 2011). "The Other Cain Scandal: Campaign Transactions May Have Broken Federal Law". Time. Retrieved March 23, 2015. After his ban was up, Block returned to politics as the state director of the Wisconsin chapter of Americans for Prosperity, a conservative advocacy organization founded by billionaires David and Charles Koch. It was through AFP that Block met Cain
• Eggen, Dan (October 31, 2011). "Herman Cain campaign's financial ties to Wisconsin charity questioned". Washington Post. Retrieved March 23, 2015. Prosperity USA footed the bill for about $40,000 worth of iPads, chartered airplanes and other expenses as Cain's campaign got off the ground early this year
• Stone, Peter H. (November 3, 2011). "Koch-related group is reviewing financial transactions with Cain aide's charity". Center for Public Integrity. Retrieved March 23, 2015. The conservative grassroots goliath, Americans for Prosperity, has confirmed that it had financial transactions with at least one charity in Wisconsin founded by Mark Block, chief of staff for Herman Cain's presidential campaign
• McCormack, John (November 9, 2011). "Americans for Prosperity: Our Reimbursements to Herman Cain Were Legal". Weekly Standard. Retrieved March 23, 2015. The results of AFP's review, according to AFP's Executive Vice President Tracy Henke, show that the organization legitimately reimbursed Cain and a staffer for four flights that occurred prior to the launch of his presidential campaign.

Proposed summarization:

AFP had financial transactions with a tax-exempt charity that allegedly made contributions to the Herman Cain presidential campaign which were not included in the Cain campaign's disclosures. Tax-exempt charities are prohibited from contributing to political campaigns, and a charity may not use intermediaries to contribute to political campaigns. AFP said the transactions were reimbursements of travel expenses, incurred before Cain launched his campaign, for Cain and a staff person to attend AFP or AFP Foundation events.

Comments? Hugh (talk) 19:48, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

It strikes me as not particularly relevant and very non-neutral. None of these stories suggested AFP did anything wrong, but this presentation suggests the opposite. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:19, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Revised proposed summarization:

AFP had financial transactions with a tax-exempt charity that allegedly made contributions to the Herman Cain presidential campaign. AFP said the transactions were reimbursements of travel expenses, incurred before Cain launched his campaign, for Cain and a staff person to attend AFP or AFP Foundation events.

Comments? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 20:39, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

This formulation demonstrates how tangential AFP's role in this story really was. Trivial content not sufficiently noteworthy for inclusion. See WP:NOTEVERYTHING. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:44, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Merge "Influence" and "Tea Party" sections?

I note the one-paragraph influence section consists solely of assessments from reliable sources of the subject's leadership role within the tea party movement. We have a principle of facts 1st, then interpretation/reaction/analysis. I think the influence section would fit well as a last paragraph in the tea party section. Comments? Hugh (talk) 21:06, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to implement this, let's see how it looks. Thanks. Hugh (talk) 01:28, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Explain the diff between AFP and the Foundation?

We need a decent explanation of the difference between these two related orgs. The current text doesn't do it. I hope somebody can comply because I can't. Thank you. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 07:25, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't have a source, but most political organizations have paired 501(c)(3) and 501(c)(4) organizations. Can someone verify this and explain it better? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:52, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

We do have sources, but it would be WP:SYNTHESIS to use them to explain the difference, as we don't have a single source which does so. Perhaps some of the sections under "Finance" (which are completely irrelevant to "finance") could be moved to a description, if we're careful not to have synthesis by adjacency. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:01, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

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