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• 2002 Gujarat violence/revision
• /Archive1
• /Archive2
• /Archive3

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Hello all

I took this article off my watchlist some time ago and have returned to discover its a real mess. Rather than discuss the riots themselves, half of the time is spent discussing what caused the Godhra incident, which clearly should have its own page; and the other half is mystifyingly discussing a movie, with a list of awards. The only parts that were actually about the riots were unwieldy. I have not removed anything major. The Godhra discussion is still there, just all in one place. I have also tried to categorise the various criticisms and defences of the Gujarat govt. I dont know what to do about the movie. Ive left it in, but it should surely be just a reference? We dont need to debate the merits of the movie, surely?

OK, finally, if you want to add anything, change anything, introduce a crazy POV, or whatever, at least please try to do so in the right subheading. And discuss it on the talk page and sign your edits! Its easy! Hornplease 07:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Worse than Bosnia?

Dudes, are you people from this planet or what? Look at Bosnian War and compare please. No hyperbolic crap.Netaji 23:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

This is not my hyperbole but that of an international women's enquiry committe reported by Press Trust of India.You can click on the link

Lkadvani 00:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC) This is just one of the international and humanitarian agency's report.I dont know what will be your reaction if all of them are included.Abstain from hindering serious research and putting Fact templates on what you personally dont agree. and get some sleep too..you are working too hard for improving the image of some organisations..Better not become Silas of DVC

Fine, then I'm putting detailed figures of death tolls in Bosnia and slamming those worthless claims into the ground.Netaji 00:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Subhash ,Whatever your own personal thinking is..perhaps the organisation or enquiry committee is rt or wrong..but it is something that happened.If they think the events are worse than Bosnia..perhaps they are ..as they would be experts in their field.Now dont say Ad Hominem that they are westerners so they have misconception.Their point of view is mentionable but what you will add to this will put in your own personal ideas - Weisel wordings to add your own POV.I am reporting this to BNguyen.

Lkadvani 00:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

By mentioning the term 'Bosnian War', you opened the door. Now any comparison between the War & Godhra Riots is valid in this article as long as you keep the statement. Remove the statement 'worse than Bosnia', and I'll remove the rest. You may keep the overall section and the link if you wantNetaji 00:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry ,but your grievance should be against those who said so..you may ask the international committee why did they call it worse than Bosnia.As an author I am citing what happened and not adding my POV.

What you're doing is engaging in selective quoting and introducing bias as part of a systematic attack on Hindus. What I have done is added facts to place your POV in the right context, is all. The fact remains that Gujarat is like Bosnia only in the dream world of Osama bin-laden's abortion clinic and pot-smoking jizzporium, not on planet Earth, which is where Misplaced Pages is located.Netaji 01:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

"Teesta Setalvad is a convert to Islam. Though,it is , surprisingly, known by a few people only."

Good - She told you only and where are the sources you need to back up this argument.Is this not your own POV,monseigneur. Lkadvani 00:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Nein mein freund. Read Koenraad Elsts article AS I HAVE REFERENCED IT. His exhaustive research confirms Setalvad's lies.

monseigneur????? I'm not a priest dude! You're the anti-Hindu crusader here, not I

Netaji 00:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Riots Section

The riots section makes statements that are not backed up by the cited source.Netaji 23:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Please could you mention what sources do you personally admit as valid to be cited on these pages and I will try citing them.

I am a citizen of this world and not of an utopian world based on supremacy of Hindus and Hinduism with India as the greatest power and I haved cited sources that are accpetable to most people of the world and not to a fringe section.

I challenge you to cite sources in your arguments favour apart from the three groups that you have a fancy of putting everywhere on Misplaced Pages:Articles written by Hindutva supporters including the famous Mr.Elst and Pipes,BJP politicians and adminsitration sources and articles on sites with signicant Hindutva content.I am sure you will exhaust your tiny spectrum of resources.

Lots of people gate Hindus because they want to eradicate us as part of a campaign of race war against us. So what if you have sources? Hndus generally aren't so net savvy, and anti-Hindus like you have jumped on the weakness and are using the net to spread hate against them...Netaji 20:19, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

...Most Supremacist movements start with the same phrase "We are victims", infact this is the same phrase the Sangh Parivar is building up its army.Nazis too suspected Jews to be responsible for their defeat and all their misery..Sangh Parivar is following the same course...

Lkadvani 20:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Knowing your habit of attacking the news sources like the BBC,CNN and well known Indian and International Newspapers of the world - I have used the basic sources Indian Supreme Court statements and the parliament questions.But even then your desire to protect the image of these supremacist organisations before the world - you already admit somewhere - these are the best referenced articles on Google - leads you to criticising sources, taking out bits and peices of information very flagrantly and entering them in the articles to deflect the reality.

Take for instance your editing of this section:.You removed the sentence in Italics:

But a senior police official says it is still unclear whether the remains belong to riot victims or whether an older graveyard has been dug up.The Gujarat Police dismissed the unearthing of the mass grave as an unnecessary publicity campaign..This explanation was considered as Gujarat Police's distorting the facts.

when within the cited source there is evidence that this was a reality:

Everything is legal and on record. We haven't received any application for the dead bodies," said Dinesh Brahmbhatt, District Collector and Magistrate of Panchmahal. Yet, he was not able to provide any documentation of the bodies exhumed. Nor was he able to explain why clothes were found with the skeletons. If post-mortems are conducted, the clothes are removed and kept by the police, and a white shroud is supposed to be placed over the body. "This shows that the post-mortem may not have been done properly," says Setalvad. Moreover, victims claim that the First Information Report (FIR) does not account for the 20 bodies that were missing. But neither they nor their lawyer could state how many people were registered as dead in the two FIRs filed in the Pandharvada case...and that "It is not only the Pandharvada case, but in several others too, the police have tried to bury and conceal evidence. In Kalol, the CBI arrested six policemen and two doctors on the charge of deliberately destroying evidence relating to the Randhikpur massacre and conspiring to shield the accused. They allegedly conducted a post-mortem at the site of the burial and added 60 kg of salt so that the bodies would disintegrate quickly."

Yeah, Setalvad is a well established radical Islamist and so is unreliable.Netaji 20:19, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Read this court judgement again Supreme court expunged all negative remarks placed by Gujarat Judges and she was discharged of all the charges levelled in Zaheera Shah affair.If the Supreme court has nothing against her..why should you level such charges and bad mouth her..

Lkadvani 20:57, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

More news sources speak of the same:Read this article properlySo far I have refrained from putting any Muslim sources lest it be non NPOV but it seems my restraint is only allowing you to become more aggressive.

My dear hindu hater. I have tried to balance the article and make it neutral. You have soiled it with distorted, deluded propaganda. The facts are correct, it's your presentation of them, through pejoration and redundancy, that make it anti-Hindu propaganda.Netaji 20:19, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not a Hindu hater unlike you who has time and again used foul language against your country as well as the Islamic religion.I have only used facts in the sense, majority of sane observers in academicia, press and Human Rights arena have expressed and have avoided more direct statements in the Muslim or Christian media.

Discuss

Many people have worked for a long time in editing this article. Please discuss changes before adding them from now on.Netaji 19:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Koenraad elst

Until people show links to accusations of bias on the part of Elst, you cannot accuse him of pro-Hindutva. Plus, do not delete legit quotes from time magazine.

In the reference Subhas provided Elst attempts to defend himself from charges of being biased, and an apologist for Hindutva. That is all that the article has been edited to reflect.

No, you wrote "Hindutva sympathizer Koenraad Elst". That is a proclamation, not an acucsation (Bah! He's not even a Hindu!). Fi you want to engage in defamation of Elst then THAT BELONGS IN THE SEPARATE KOENRAAD ELST ARTICLE. Get it?Netaji 20:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, please, note that if you wish to introduce criticism, then it should be noted that Elst is not considered a mainstream source and has been accused, and denies, being an apologist for Hindutva. That is all that the edits say. Note that it is not NPOV to introduce a quote supposedly from an unbiased 'scholar' without noting that he is in a minority in his field, and that he is considered to hold unbalanced views. If that is a problem, please note that the best alternative is to find another, more reliable source, and one whose motivations can be understood by the reader. Hornplease 22:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The quotes from Time magazine that were deleted properly belong, if at all, in the separate Godhra article, where they still exist. Hornplease 20:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry old boy. The 'divide and rule' trick was already tried by your British masters, won't work anymore. THIS article is supposed to be about 2002 Gujarat Vilence, NOT 2002 Hindu violence ONLY. since the train burning incident was the START of the violence, it must be chronicled here, including accredited quotes by TIME magazine.Netaji 20:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I added an excerpt from Elst's interview in the 'defense of Gujrat Administration' section. No deletions of other people's edits.Netaji

Subhash, this is the last time I will remid you about WP:NPA against me. I have taken the time to read your past interactions with people, and I see no improvement. This article is too long; the Godhra incident is difficult enough to chronicle. If you include the Time article, then someone will wish to include subsequent revisions to the theory of what happened. Very soon it will again expand to dominate half the article, and this article cannot afford that. Please understand that a simple link to the Godhra article is sufficient, along with a bare-bones statement of what happened, and what the disagreement is.

Also, please consider that you are introducing far too many lengthy quotes that are statements of opinion and not of fact. Further, they are from individuals, and not organisations; and not individuals close to the playing out of affaris, like Advani or Modi, or even individuals considered mainstream opinionmakers like Stephen Cohen. Unless you have a good defence of your edits, they will be removed.

Finally, please refrain from being aggressive on the talk page. Your attempts at rudeness will not work with experienced editors, as they merely make you appear immature, and they certainly arent amusing, which is how you have defended them in the past. Hornplease 22:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't patronize me bub.Your friend LKadvani added a lot of the same kinds of crap. Quotes, opinions, etc. No problem with that eh? Anything to defame Hindus right? Sheesh, Hindus attack each other so much that the muslims just have to sit back and watch. If you vandalize my edits as you are threatening, then I will also remove his on the same grounds. Don't think I am not watching carefully. If necessary, I will dedicate my time to policing this article alone. You can't stop me with childish threats.Netaji 23:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, please do not accuse me of attempting to defame either Hindus or Muslims. These rhetorical tricks add nothing to your argument, and only take away from it. Also, please note that editing an article to remove quotes of doubtful POV should not be called vandalism. Please read WP:AGF, and extend the same courtesy of assumption to other editors as I am doing to you. Please feel free to remove any quotes inserted by anyone else that meet the criteria above: as being from a non-mainstream individual, from someone not close to the events or with special information.

I note that you have not responded to my actual questions. Aggression on the talk page is not a substitute for a careful defence of your edits. Hornplease 00:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Elst is very much a mainstream individual. On what basis are you claiming otherwise? His degrees and qualifications are legitimate. Plus, he has extensive experience with Indian Culture and has collaborated with WELL known scholars such as Sita Ram Goel. Please look him up and read his many published works before making disguised ad-hominem attacks. Just because he is not an anti-Hindu hater and bigot does not make him 'fringe'. If you have any valid questions please itemize them logically below, as I can't tell your questions apart from your temper tantrums.Netaji 00:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

PLease see my response on LKadvanis talk page, linked below. Also, please note that my questions were put as part of the edit summaries, so you can tell them apart from what you call my temper tantrums. Hornplease 05:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is my defense of Elst:

• He is not a Hindu. He has repeatedly professed his devotion to Christianity (see his article).

"I am still part of the Catholic community, meaning that my children go to a Catholic school, I am a member of the Christian-Democratic trade-union, cultural foundation and so on. I have also retained my sympathy for the causes of Catholic nations, like Quebec’s sovereignty and the Irish cause, and I can still argue the Catholic point against Protestantism or refute the allegation that the Inquisition killed millions of people or that Pope Pius XII was a Nazi collaborator. I still think highly of the Catholic social teachings and occasionally reread passages from Saint Thomas Aquinas. And I would still feel at home in the company of a Lievens or a Rasschaert, or their successors. Nevertheless, I am no longer a Roman Catholic. I am a secular humanist with an active interest in religions, particularly Taoism and Hinduism, and keeping a close watch on the variegated Pagan revival in Europe"

Therefore, he is not biased in favor of any Hindu ideology. His sholarship and degrees are beyond reproach. Plus, he has devoted much time to communalism studies in India , has actually spent a considerable amount of tim ein the country and experiencing the society, and consequently has a firm and thorough understanding of the culture. He is presently a running contender for the prestigious Kluge Chair.Please sign this petition for him,Subhash has already signed at Number 426 ,Pussyamitra Sunga86.143.137.253 23:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC) Many secular fundamentalists oppose him, but his analyses are logical and scholarly, whereas his critics engage in shouting matches and ad-Hominem attacks without providing any scholarly backing and are politically motivated against him.

In addition, he has collaborated with esteemed colleague Prof. Ramesh Rao on various research papers related to Indian history and Indian politics. His scholarly input is as undeniable as any other scholar's on the relevant areas of study.

Also, Elst has written many books praising people who have been consistent critics of mainstream Hinduism, such as "Dr. Ambedkar - A True Aryan (1993)". Ambedkar was a partisan critic of Hinduism and the treatment of Dalits by Hindus, and Elst has written a treatise in his defense.

He has also published about multiculturalism, language policy issues, ancient Chinese history and philosophy, comparative religion, and the Aryan invasion debate. Dr. Elst became a well-known author on Indian politics in the 1990s. He also met the Hindu writer Sita Ram Goel in India, and was influenced by his writings.

While he does speak consistently in favor of Hindus, he has done so with a level of scholarly objectivity (though consistently) and has often criticised the Sangh Parivar when he felt they needed criticism. The only way by which he can be refuted is if any established bias can be proven, either through financial or ideological links to Hindus in India, and no such link has been established, for none exist.

If there are any questions or doubts, I will contact Dr Elst himself and he can (if he wishes) defend his position here. Until YOU can refute his legitimacy with a scholarly source from academia his quotes are highly relevant as they present a scholarly perspective rather than a journalistic one (which has been the case with LKadvani and your edits).Netaji 00:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm almost certain Mr. Elst is a Christian. He just looks at India in an NPOV manner, unlike a good amount of people here.

Survey:Koenraad Elst as a creditable NPOV source?

Please help in a dispute on this article by participating in the survey on my user page Lkadvani 23:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Protected

Would we all like to calm down a bit please? The content of some of the edit summaries used recently is unnacceptable. When you've all calmed down, and when you've all dicussed changes (if necessary), instead of edit warring (which has been going on for the past few days), only then will the article will be unprotected. Thanks, — FireFox _{12:21, 28 July '06}

Agreed. I am calm.Lkadvani's edit was completely irrelevant to the subject matter of the article. The boycott did not happen in 2002, it did not happen in Gujarat, it was not violent. It does not belong in an article titled "2002 Gujarat Violence". Plus, Lkadvani has been loading the article against Hindus without allowing me to present facts that present the entire situation in a dispassionate way. He has also been known to make pejorative remarks against Hindus in earlier talk pages of articles like Babri Mosque which has also been protected.Netaji 12:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Unsupported statement

"This explanation was considered as Gujarat Police's distorting the facts" is an unsupported POV statement. Nobody has accused the police of distorting the facts yet. More veiled propaganda coming from the likes of Lkadvani I think. It must be removedNetaji 13:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Look at his user page, Netaji, its all POv'd upBakaman%% 15:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Another thing to edit out

"The United Nations International Human Rights Commission has not yet recognized the Gujarat riots as a human rights issue"

to

"The United Nations International Human Rights Commission has not recognized the Gujarat riots as a human rights issue"

"yet" is POV. It takes a position on the subject. More vandalism from Lkadvani Netaji 02:10, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

This is somewhat addressed in a previous complaint against you by User:Rushdie as one can see from User:Blgnuyen's talk page

Lkadvani 03:02, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Until the UN recognises this as a human rights issue (which they won't, they're too busy with somebody's, ah friends, in Darfur), the word "yet" is POV. It takes a position on the subject, which is a violation of NPOV regardless of how many smear campaigns you can think up. And our friend of the "Religion of Peace" should perhaps see this article before trying to vault a certain Sheiks propaganda here. Netaji 05:21, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

This whole sentence was as far as I remember, written by you and as you can see the various stages it has gone through were you wrote initially - "UN has not recoginsed..."- Rushdie wrote - "UN has recognised... "- and he cited the links to UN discussions after which you yourself wrote - "UN has not yet recognised...", at which state it was for a long time till a few days back - you have reverted it back to "UN has not recoginsed...", What points changed in this period that you had this sudden change of thought..I am not aware of what the specifics are of declaring a subject as Human Rights Issue but as far as I know UNHRC Chairman has reminded India of its duties in protecting rights of displaced in Gujarat after Narendra Modi ordered closures of refugee camps..and the rest of the links on the page refer to what the discussions have been going on in the UN.You re again diverting the issues and mixing them up when you present the newer issues.By the way, those responsible for the blasts in Bombay say it is a revenge for Gujarat riots..and they specifically wanted to target the culprit Gujarat policemen..

Lkadvani 02:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

A large bulk of UN members are muslims. Enough said. Also, UN Human rights has been criticized for being partisan before (by Israel prime minister Yitzhak Rabin). Anyways, I didn't edit the "not yet recognized" part because I also have other work besides watching your trolls on wikipedia.Netaji 01:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again for reminding that UN is a trustless organisation because some of its members are Muslims..I see you have dozens of changes made on this same article since you wrote that "UN has not yet recognised Gujarat riots as a Human Rights issue but campaigns to recognise it have been undertaken by Islamic organisations".Lying blatantly..have some shame - the whole world is watching!

Lkadvani 19:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Human Rights Watch has been criticized as a fraud

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Human_Rights_Watch#Criticism HRW is pro muslim and anti-semitic! I will add this wikilink to all references to hrw here.Netaji 01:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Proving Misplaced Pages by Misplaced Pages good..tells great of your standard..by the way there are a few lines below in this same article

http://en.wikipedia.org/Human_Rights_Watch#Response

Forgot to mention : Now that you supsect HRW being fraud, should we remove this part from the article where you have proved something based on Human Rights Watch I have again and again asked you which sources to use for this article.You dont agree on Indian government,judiciary,Human Rights Organisations,News Sources..Tell us what sources are NPOV and what are non NPOV in a list. Cheers Lkadvani 19:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Human rights watch has a 15 page report on Human rights violations by USA. It has a 3 page report on HR violations by Pakistan. So, according to them, a democracy like USA violates more Human Rights than an islamist dictatorship like Pakistan. Lol! What a joke. No wonder they are such laughingstocks in the US. Plus, it is a fact that hrw has been accused of bias towards muslims and of anti-semitism. I did not say that the refs should be removed. However, given the extent to which our anti-Hindu friend has quoted a biased site, the citations (both his and mine) should be qualified with the statement that hrw has been accused of bias by reknown world leaders.Netaji 20:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Some neu(t)ral POV's of User:Subhash alias (Pussyamitra Sunga)

My indoctrination

Well, I can tell you something. I am not interested, nor do I care about Islamic doctrine. I only care about the actions of muslims. I grew up a Hindu in a predominantly Muslim area, and the hatred, intolerance, and bigotry of muslims is something that my family sufferred from on a daily basis. Pogroms against Hindus were a common thing in Muslim areas in North India for a long time.

The Muslims and their socialist allies have controlled the Indian media for decades, painting a rosy picture of Islam, all the while subliminally preaching Sharia law through television. They have carried out unspeakable genocides against Hindus since the 12th century, and it was all forgotten and never mentioned in any history book. For half a millenuim, Hindus have been Dhimmis under Islamic rule, and it is never mentioned in any historical texts. They murdered hundreds of thousands of Hindus in Bangladesh not 3 decades ago, and it is a rumour in the eyes of western scholars. Only recently have scholars like Koenraad Elst have been brave enough to point out the truth. Hindus have only recently started to empower themselves against Islam and we hope to liberate our country from them altogether within one generation.

In short, don't lecture about "studying Islam".

WE KNOW WHO THEY ARE. We know what they do. We know how they lie! We know how they kill.

Hindu Rashtra ! Bharat Jago!

How I use Misplaced Pages to promote personal view In response to Shahzad

Don't tout your terrorist muslim propaganda here. "Sati" (not satya, satya means truth in sanskrit, something a muslim would be too illeterate and stupid to know, obviously...) or widow immolation was abolished by social education of Raja Ram Mohan Roy, a HINDU , not by any damn muslim. Muslims were always to keen on raping their children and their wives, and muslims buried their widows alive with their dead husbands (the lucky ones, the unlucky ones spend their entire lives shunned behind the 'purdah').

A muslim wouldn't be a muslim in India if he didn't houst a few drinks (sharaab) every evening and attack Hindus (Hanood-Kush) on the streets. It gave meaning to so many of them... The only thing that muslims brought to India was genocide and paedophilia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Raja_Ram_Mohan_Roy http://en.wikipedia.org/Pederasty_in_the_Islamic_world http://en.wikipedia.org/Pederasty_in_the_Islamic_world#Mughal_India

Fortunately, the world is waking up in time and soon all will know the truth...

I should have studied Sanskrit I envy your education in sanskrit (I myself was not offered the priviledge due to my undergrad schooling being in Calcutta, where the communist regime cancelled the Sanskrit curriculla, so I couldn't minor). I am mostly self-taught in Sanskrit myself, with some tutoring from my Hindi teacher (who was an actual Chaturvedi, so I got lucky I guess).

Writing on a Jewish site about Islamic slaughter methods not knowing both are similar and Muslims eat Kosher as an alternative to Halaal

The most revolting are the Islamic slaughtering methods. These customs, which cast a particularly vivid spotlight on the so-called Islamic "Halaal" practices, are so terrible that it is nearly impossible for a civilized person to watch grinning muslim butchers carry out their work, but they must. It is illuminating to see how stubbornly muslims hold to their methods of slaughter and with which casuistry they defend it against the horror of the civilized world. Rarely will people feel more horror than which watching the desperate and horrible death struggle of the slaughtered animals, twitching on the floor while slowly and painfully bleeding to death. Long before the repatriaition of the Ramjanmabhoomi, the RSS fought against muslim slaughter. VHP representatives in parliament repeatedly introduced legislation to abolish this form of animal torture through a ban on Islamic slaughter. Such proposals were always rejected, since the entire muslim and muslim-influenced press ran long articles against them and the so-called Congress parties refused to support Hindutva in its battle against this evil. Lkadvani 20:49, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

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