Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:34, 3 August 2006

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8 Archive 9 Archive 10 Archive 11 Archive 12 Archive 13 Archive 14

Note: if you leave a comment here that you want me to reply to, here's where I'll reply to it. (The one exception, whose comments will be deleted unread whether he signs them as himself or as his sockpuppet, knows who he is.) Leave new comments at the bottom.

I reserve the right to refactor this page as I see fit, and if you are planning to post the exact same complaints to my user page and to the talk page of the article you're upset about, don't be surprised when it's deleted from here.

Recommended reading

I've just read some of the old Song Fight! talk edits. While I realize you've been around longer than a lot of people (including myself), I kindly point you to WP:AGF, perhaps with a slight "shame-on-you" tilt of the head. WP standards aren't obvious to the newcomer, and that kind of approach is only bound to produce an unpleasant confrontation. Fearwig 05:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

If you'd actually read all, rather than just "some", of the old talk page discussions, you'd realize that I was subjected to personal attacks for trying to make the entry consistent with the style of a Misplaced Pages entry rather than the style of a Song Fight! press release. If you want to be personally attacked, too, you can go edit that article, and I hope you enjoy being demonized by self-righteous self-promoters. Me, I'm not interested, which is why I ask you to take your much-belated '"shame-on-you" tilt of the head' somewhere else. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: Metaphoric use of "Siberia"?

Here you've written

In the United States at least, there is a wide association of "Siberia" with "punishing exile in everything but name", based on a belief that underlings in the Soviet system failed, they were re-assigned to Siberia.

Would you explane the meaning of this piece, please? Ъыь 15:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I will try. Many American television shows and movies during the existence of the Soviet Union made reference to Siberia. When Siberia was referenced, it was always as a punishment: for instance, if a Soviet agent failed in a mission against the United States, the end of the program might show the agent receiving news from his superiors that he was being sent to Siberia. This became so frequent that "Siberia" came to be used as metaphor for exile and punishment: "a bureaucratic Siberia" (,), for example. I think that explaining this metaphorical use will help the article. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, now it's clear. Any suggestion on commonplaces/myths cleanup? :) I think this your description will be just fine. Ъыь 16:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Redundant IMDb links

The film U.S. Marshals (film) has its own page, the {{imdb title|id=0120873|title=U.S. Marshals}} isn't necessary for the The Fugitive (1993 film) article. It belongs in the U.S. Marshals (film) article. —Gabbe 19:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Long talk page

Greetings! Your talk page is getting a bit long in the tooth - please consider archiving your talk page (or ask me and I'll archive it for you). Cheers! BD2412 T 23:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Done (whew!). BD2412 T 02:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

New cult article

Hi Antaeus. We met recently in another editor’s talk page. Since you seem to be an expert in the field I’d like to ask you a question about a cult that destroyed part of my life. Eschatology (cult) is a minority sect that became into existence at the beginning of the 20th century after a schism with Christian Science (though eschatologists are atheists). Besides the cult’s official web site I can find no information about it in the internet but I have some inside information (alas, that’s OR). The cult is flourishing in Mexico and other countries. It needs to be exposed. I have no idea how to write a NPOV article for Misplaced Pages. Is there a guide for such difficult articles? —Cesar Tort 18:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Cesar. I typed the two words Eschatology and cult into Google and this was the first result: The Curse of Eschatology. There's lots more. The best source of information about cults on the internet is http://rickross.net/. BTW, I wrote you a message on my talk page. -- Bookish 22:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, all of those critical links refer to Christian eschatology, not to William W. Walter’s cult called “Eschatology”. —Cesar Tort 22:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I realized that after I read through some of them. See my talk page for an update. -- Bookish 00:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Antaeus. Thanks for the advice in my user page. I have already created the article Eschatology (cult). Any criticism from you is most welcome. —Cesar Tort 08:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Referencing

Hi Antaeus. I am interested in any suggestions to improve my referencing. Please feel free to list them on my disucssion page. Best regards, --Fahrenheit451 18:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions, Antaeus! LOL! Actually, the online current version of the St. Pete Times is redacted from the print version, but when it gets archived, it is all there. The lecture excerptions were right from the editions compared side by side. It is appalling what rtc is censoring.--Fahrenheit451 16:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Terryeo editing again?

Hey..... I saw your observation that the anon IP that recently edited Altered texts in Scientology doctrine was making the exact same point that Terryeo has been making on the talk page... I checked the IP, and sure enough, the anon IP is 65.147.84.76, which comes from the same block of Qwest servers as Terryeo's IP (which he publicly displayed recently as being 65.146.30.209). wikipediatrix 20:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Now that's quite interesting... I notice he's been choosing smaller and smaller things to dev-T us with, as if he's trying to make sure we know that he's acting in bad faith but can't (he thinks) do anything about it. He might just wind up with a surprise, if it's so... -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

ARC (Scientology)

we have several instances of exactly duplicated references that should be consolidated here. -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello there Antaeus: Just to let you know I've done the reference consolidation (and put back a few references that seemed to have somehow gone missing). Best regards, --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 00:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

ah, excellent! You're one of the best, Nicholas. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Rick Ross

In all of my editing of Rick Ross (consultant), and in all of my interaction with user:Herschelkrustofsky (HK), I hadn't realized until this moment that HK wrote the first draft of the Ross article. Misplaced Pages famously has over a million editors. Yet, there always seem to be fewer than I'd thought. Thanks for letting me share my epiphany. Cheers, -Will Beback 11:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Violation of copyright related to Scientology as a business

Your edit re-added a link to probable copyright violations. Even though the information is not hosted on Misplaced Pages, a link to it may be illegal. Note that WP:EL says "Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States". It's important to note, that neither of the "convenience" links are needed for people to verify the information. In one case, the full content is available for free, with a simple registration. This issue has occurred in a number of other articles, and such links have been removed repeatedly. In the case of time.com, it's an eggregious breach of copyright, because Time is actively selling that story for profit, and the free copy directly competes with Time, and has no potential for fair use justification. Copyright violation is a serious issue for the Foundation, and I suggest you respect Misplaced Pages policy on this issue. Note, my edits had *no* effect on the actual prose of the article, and there was no justification for your revert. --Rob 15:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your opinion. -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Definition of POV fork

You mentioned that the Scientology as a business article was the "opposite of a POV fork." I can see from WP:POV_fork#Article_spinouts_-_.22Summary_style.22_articles that it's not a POV fork, but am curious about your use of the term "opposite." I'm still relatively new here and would like to learn the terminology. Thanks. JChap 16:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, calling something a "POV fork", especially as opposed to "content fork", makes a statement about the motives of whoever created it. It implies that someone made the new article for the purposes of getting around the process of editor consensus. In this case, though, if you compare the first version of Scientology as a business with how the section Scientology#Scientology as a commercial venture looked at the time the new article was created -- I haven't taken the two files and run a diff on them but I'd bet twenty cents to one that you'd find they were identical. It's hard to claim that someone's trying to dodge consensus when all they're doing is taking the results that consensus has already produced and moving it to a new location for the process of consensus editing to continue. (It is possible to produce a POV fork that way, but it involves shunting the full discussion to a new article and leaving an inadequate or non-NPOV summary behind, which wasn't the case here.) -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Reply on categories and subcategories

In reply to your comment on Talk:Ubuntu_(Linux_distribution),

1. because it came up in peer review;
2. guidelines are not policy;
3. the editor in question argued for the article to be included in two categories additional to the one it was defining.

Samsara (talk • contribs) 11:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll admit that I saw the recent edit history, filled with edit summaries about "added category" "rv, Ubuntu is a sub-cat" "cat" "have we completely abandoned the idea of hierarchical categorisation now?" "rv vandal rmv of cat" and I did not step through every edit to see exactly what each side was advocating for. The mistake I thought someone was making was the mistake I see people make over and over and over and over, and which certainly sounded like what Localzuk (talk · contribs) was saying: that if an article is in a sub-category it should never be in any of the parent categories of that sub-cat. Exceptions to that rule are very clearly stated, but I have seen people quote the entire rule in full including the exceptions and still say "And therefore Article X-Y-Z shouldn't be in any other category except Category:X-Y-Z!"

You point out that "guidelines are not policy". I prefer a formulation which, I think, encourages good behavior more than it merely enables behavior which might be good: "rules have exceptions." The reason behind the exception for defining articles is that if a subject is important enough as to merit its own category, the article defining that subject is surely important enough that readers should be able to navigate to it in one step from the parent category, rather than having to go from parent-cat to the sub-cat and only then from the sub-cat to the article. And the same logic is what led me, the last time I addressed this issue, to add Category:Linux distributions to Ubuntu (Linux distribution) and Category:Ubuntu, even though it was already in Category:Debian-based distributions. Articles which are important should be easy to navigate to and yet a reader starting at Category:Linux distributions has an easier time getting to Taprobane Linux, whose sole distinction seems to be its country of origin, than they do getting to Ubuntu (Linux distribution) -- all because Ubuntu is based on Debian and Taprobane isn't? How much sense does that make? -- Antaeus Feldspar 14:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: citations

I think I got carried away... desolé Lsjzl 01:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, you did it in good faith. It's already gotten me started thinking about ways that that section could be rephrased for the better, so that's good... -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:12, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the help on the chiro page

Antaeus, thanks for your help on the chiro page. I'm sure he has good intentions;) Please feel free to check in anytime! --Dematt 02:31, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Accidentally deleted material

Just saw what happened in the Scientology article with my edits of yesterday, sorry about it, and thanks for restoring the material I deleted by mistake. I have no idea what happened, but from now on I will make it a rule to diff myself to be sure I don't unexpectedly damage articles. Raymond Hill 14:27, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey, no problem. I've certainly had my own share of edits where I would have sworn on a Bible that I'd made a very simple edit but an actual diff showed huge changes. Sometimes I did the diff myself and found out immediately ... sometimes, unfortunately, it wasn't me who found out. So, hey, we all look out for each other, and it's cool. Enjoy the weekend! -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:09, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Charles Buell Anderson

Not an attack? Whereas the extensively cited facts about Gregory Lauder Frost's conviction is? Curious... Just zis Guy you know? 22:12, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea who the fuck Gregory Lauder Frost is, so your attempt to drag him into this seems a very dubious tactic indeed. Sticking with the article in question, Charles Buell Anderson, the idea that a page which has information a person does not wish to be said about him is automatically an "attack page" in the sense of speedy deletion criteria A6 is utterly absurd. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:54, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I missed this when it was posted and I can't remember the context any more anyway, so feel free to expunge it. I'm sure it was either (a) a profound and meaningful comment or (b) me getting two of the dozzens of open browser windows confused (again). Of the two, b is probably more likely... Just zis Guy you know? 11:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Ste4k

Is it just me or is this person out of control? I agree with all the comments you have made concerning her nonsense AfDs and her removal of valuable info from articles, citing it as POV. Nice work on restoring the ACIM link in the Charles Buell Anderson article. I'm currently having a long, and apparently pointless, argument with her on my talk page, but if her behavior continues like this I'm contemplating an RfC. Keep up the good work. --Nscheffey 02:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

re: your latest addition

Regarding your comment: "Ste4k's excuse for removing it was preposterous"

Adding unsourced information to an article is distinctly different than removing unsourced information from an article.

Per policy: Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be removed by any editor. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.

In the future, please provide reputable sources that justify the link that you provided. And please assume good faith. Thank you. Ste4k

Ste4k, the reason I have not been able to assume good faith of you in this regard is because the only other explanation that is possible is stupidity. And even that is not a convincing explanation, because it stretches credulity that you could just by chance be misstating the facts and misrepresenting policy in a way so precisely suited to promoting your POV.

Example #1: Your entire diatribe here revolves around "adding unsourced information", "articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources", "please provide reputable sources". Anyone reading that, if they thought that you were operating with reasonable competence and in good faith, would assume you were actually talking about information or material that had been added to the article. And since you only quoted half my edit summary, the half that read "Ste4k's excuse for removing it was preposterous", anyone reading this and not knowing the truth might actually fall for your pretense that this is a dispute about information or material that was added to the article with sources that some might see as inadequate.

They would never guess that what you were referring to was a link to the article about A Course in Miracles in the "See also" section, a link that you removed under the pretext that it was "POV": And why would they never guess this? Gee, I wonder if it could have anything to do with you cutting out the part of my edit summary which explained what you removed and put the lie to your claim that it was "unsourced information"? "restore A Course in Miracles to See also; Ste4k's excuse for removing it was preposterous"

Would you care to explain just what you think is necessary in the way of sourcing in order to include the main text used by an organization in a "See also" entry? Gee, I wonder if http://www.endeavoracademy.com/ could just possibly be a source we could use! I mean, they mention it in the second sentence on their index page: "The principal catalyst for this adventure into the enlightenment of humanity is the spiritual mind training of A Course In Miracles." Oh, but I'm sure you'll have some reason to object to that. It just won't be a good reason or one that leaves it possible to assume that you are arguing it in good faith. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

You have explained your action anywhere, nor have you justified your action. Please state your reasons in English rather than pointing to URL's without any explanation. If you are having difficulties understanding explanations regarding the content, please refer to the discussion pages. Thanks. Ste4k 17:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, it is your actions which have been bizarre and which have violated policy, a fact which your dishonest and selective attempts to rewrite history and policy do not hide. I do not believe you are having difficulty comprehending why your actions are incorrect and wrong; you simply don't wish to follow the same rules as everyone else. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

re: your latest reverts

You recently reverted the following twenty relevent wikilinks from an article. Can you please explain how each is irrelevent to the article? Using the discussion are for content you feel is disputed would be more appropriate. Thanks.

• Veterans of Foreign Wars
• Harry S. Truman
• Nuclear weapon
• Attitudinal healing
• Nagasaki
• Forgiveness
• United States Marine Corps
• Foundation for A Course in Miracles
• District court
• Wisconsin Dells, Wisconsin
• Schucman, Helen
• Teacher
• Thetford, William
• Heaven
• Wapnick, Kenneth
• Hell
• Williamson, Marianne
• Austrailia
• Lawsuit
• Penguin Books

Ste4k 17:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I've got a better idea. Why don't you explain why each of those twenty links which you added in a single edit is worth including in the See also of the article? Is nuclear weapon a link that we add to the article of every single person who ever had something to say about it? Is Heaven a link that we add to the article of every single person who had their theories on it? Stop being disruptive. -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Have you read this man's biography? First you say that we should be including things people may want to visit. Now you are saying the opposite. Which is the correct way? Each of these are very relevant to this man. Please use the discussion areas rather than simply forcing your point of view into edit summarys. Thank you. Ste4k 19:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Take your straw man argument elsewhere. I never said "we should be including things people may want to visit" in "See also". I said that we should be including "A Course In Miracles" because it is what Anderson's organization identifies as its primary text. Even though I did not also add "-- and that is a distinction that cannot be said of several hundreds of millions of people over several centuries," I think that goes without saying to anyone who is not trying to be disruptive. -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a source reference that agrees with your statement? I asked this of you earlier. If you do not have a source reference then your hypothesis about this man is simply original research. Thanks. Ste4k 20:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

• Veterans of Foreign Wars - At least 3/4's of this biography discusses Anderson's involvement iin WWII
• Harry S. Truman - A link to an excellent article for people intereste in Anderson's military past context
• Nuclear weapon - Another link to context regarding Anderson's landing with the marines on Nagasaki in 1945
• Attitudinal healing - Related to A Course in Miracles
• Nagasaki - Related to 3/4's of the biography discussing Andersons landing with the marines here in '45
• Forgiveness - Related to A Course in Miracles
• United States Marine Corps - Anderson was a Private First Class in the U.S. Marine Corps in 1945
• Foundation for A Course in Miracles - Related to A Course in Miracles
• District court - Related to Anderson's involvment in litigation over A Course in Miracles
• Wisconsin Dells, Wisconsin - Anderson's Home Town. Please read the biography/
• Schucman, Helen - Author of A Course in Miracles
• Teacher - Anderson is a teacher by trade.
• Thetford, William - Editor of A Course in Miracles
• Heaven - Related to Religious Figures
• Wapnick, Kenneth - Editor of A Course in Miracles
• Hell - Related to Religious Figures
• Williamson, Marianne - Related to A Course in Miracles in an equal way as Anderson.
• Austrailia - Geographic location centered around the 2nd half of the biography.
• Lawsuit - Related to Anderson's involvment with A Course in Miracles
• Penguin Books - Company which sued Anderson over A Course in Miracles

Per your request. Please learn to study the subject before making blind edits, and please discuss your hopes to improve the page with other editors in discussion. Thanks. Ste4k 20:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The Fugitive

Your comment on the rv was This is the article about the TV series; details about *that series* should come first, then the remake and the movie - If you look at what I did, I demarcated a section for the original 1963 tv series first, then the 2000 tv series remake, then the movie. How is that not what you're saying should be done? -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 20:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

See Talk:The Fugitive (TV series). -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:48, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Ste4k's incorrect assertions of personal attacks

Please assume good faith and refrain from making personal attacks. Thanks. Ste4k 16:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I made no personal attacks. I merely noted something that was the complete and utter truth: you marked a particular fact as being "not in citation given", but you had known for more than a week about a citation which addressed that fact. Perhaps you are getting confused and thinking there was a personal attack because you are aware that what you did would be regarded negatively by most people? -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Ste4k's claim that changing a header to more accurately reflect a discussion counts as "personal attacks"

Regarding this comment, pleaseassume good faith and refrain from personal attacks. Regarding this modification of my comments, again, please refrain from personal attacks. Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Ste4k 00:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Once again, Ste4k, you seem to think that anything directed at your editing that you don't like is a "personal attack". So sorry to tell you, it's not true; when you remove well-cited information that a particular party made a claim very relevant to the article because you have information from a different source (which you have not cited) and you choose to believe your source and choose to remove from the article the information that anyone disagrees with your source's view of the matter -- that is disruption, my friend. If you try to argue to an admin that you aren't disrupting when you remove verifiable information because you disagree with it, but that I am disruptive if I criticize you for that editing behavior -- let me know when you plan to make the report, because I would love to see the look on that admin's face. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Ste4k's general impression that user talk pages are for the purpose of harassing other users with pointless false accusations

Regarding this edit changing my comments and being generally argumentative: Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Ste4k 01:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Ste4k? Let's focus on the issues here. Those issues being: when you remove well-cited information about the subject of the article, that they claim a particular state of affairs, and your "explanation" on the talk page of why you would do such a thing is that you view their claim as already disproven and so wish to deny the reader the opportunity of deciding whether they believe the claim or not -- you are in flagrant, massive violation of Misplaced Pages policy and no amount of harassing other people via their user talk pages will cover that up. Comprende? -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:40, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The issues are:

1. Personal attacks referring to me rather than the article, here on your talk page, in the discussion of the article and in the edit summarys of the article.
2. Continuous assumption of bad faith.
3. Failing to discuss or recognize the issues on the talk page of the article.
4. Removing direct quotes from a cited source supplied by Nscheffey (talk · contribs)
5. Reverting back to a primary source what two other editors agreed was an external link.

Please refer to policy listed at WP:3RR. If you do not have a copy of the cited source, then I suggest that you get one. Thanks. Ste4k 05:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-07-12_Raymond_Hill

Hi Antaeus. You were named in this particular mediation case. You may want to add your insights. -- Raymond Hill 23:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Abby

Please do not delete movie posters from their wikipedia entries. Thank you. (Ibaranoff24 00:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC))

Sorry about that. It was not intentional; when trying to delete a vanity reference inserted by the poster before you, I must have accidentally edited a different revision than I thought I was editing. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Ste4k RfC

Just letting you know there is an RfC open on Ste4k. --Nscheffey 01:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Category:L. Ron Hubbard

Hi, consensus has actually been moving in the other direction over the last year for eponymous categories. See Category talk:Categories named after people ("Should these categories be placed in other categories?") and dicussions at Misplaced Pages talk:Categorization (Misplaced Pages talk:Categorization/Archive 15#Categorising "Categories by name" categories, Misplaced Pages talk:Categorization#Eponymous categories (again), etc.) Most users have agreed that eponymous categories should generally only contain Category:Categories named after people or one of its subcategories and that eponymous categories should not be placed in the same categories as their articles. --musicpvm 23:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Opertion Colorblind and Wade Watts

I see you have added Prod notices to both these articles. However you did not provide a reason in either case. It is very important that you provide reasons when using the Prod template otherwise it is impossible for other editors to react to your proposed deletion. I have removed the Prod notices from the articles; if you feel they should still be deleted, please use the AfD process, providing a reason based in policy. Thanks, Gwernol 01:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Please see Template talk:Prod for why I am placing the {{prod}} template on the articles again. If I had neglected to give a reason for proposing deletion because I didn't have one, that would be one thing, but I wrote out my reasons for both articles, and I don't think the fact that they were lost by technical difficulties should be penalized. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Keith Henson explosives

See my comment on Talk:Keith_Henson about why I removed the explosives sentence from the Druid Days section. Sentence is a non-sequitor unless it is somehow linked to Keith himself. ChrisLawson 14:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Scientology

NubbinTom is just inserting the name of the site 'YTMND' into the article. See http://wikicodesscientology.ytmnd.com/ . -- Saaber 17:46, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Southpark episode

Sir, you have reverted three times already, not me. A record album that sold millions of copies is a valid form of reference. This has passed the point of rationality. This isn't a conspiracy theory, just a subtle bit of interesting trivia. Since you admit that it is at best "trivia," why can't it sit in the trivia section?

R. Kelly is an "appliance fetishist" with his gun, and he goes into the closet with the other two. What do you think R. Kelly is in the episode for??? to Play with Tom Cruise's alleged gayness, of course. Travolta is thrown in just to obscure things. But, he is in the closet. I am telling you that the 'cement' is the Zappa song. I will take it upon myself to get this published by Trey Parker himself if you so desire. If no one gets to read it on Misplaced Pages until then, at least you will know where you learned it first.

Give me a few examples of "verifiable sources" that would have cushioned my fall from us having crossed spears, mighty Ant.

Maybe I need to be writing fiction, but its easier just to observe the reputable sources on television and radio.

OK, there's two issues: one is reliable sourcing. Harsh as it may seem, Misplaced Pages is not interested if you or I think that there's some connection between Zappa's song and the South Park episode. If Trey Parker says it, that's a reliable source -- Trey knows what he's talking about. If Roger Ebert says it, that's a reliable source -- Ebert doesn't have the inside knowledge that Trey does, of course, but he's a published writer acclaimed for his perception and expertise in the field of entertainment. If Josh Gura says it... well, pardon my French, but who the hell is Josh Gura? Why does "Josh Gura thinks this is meaningful" carry any more weight than "My Aunt Flo thinks it's not meaningful"?

The other is verifiability. It has to be possible, at least in theory, for anyone to verify that your source says what you say it says. Therefore, if you bump into Trey Parker at a party and ask him "Dude, what inspired you to make an episode about Scientology and the closet?" and he says "That Zappa song" -- you still can't use it on Misplaced Pages. If, however, someone from a newspaper or magazine is at the party and happens to catch Parker saying that, and puts that in print -- then anyone can look up that newspaper/magazine, read that article, and find out that yes, Parker did confirm that connection, and thus it's verifiable.

There it is, in a nutshell. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Great. At this juncture, I am no longer claiming that there is a connection between the Zappa song and South Park's episode OTHER than the content of those two pieces themselves, which are both reliable sources because they are themselves the original sources. We may as well the synopsis of the episode if we cannot rely on the episode as a source. Misplaced Pages nferring that Tom Cruise is being called gay from the show is a potential libellous mistake since Travolta and Kelly are also in the closet. As base as SP are, they are also clever (South Park, not Suppressive Persons.) Just as the very words we use are verifiable, so are the lyrics in the Zappa song, which L. Ron "Hoover"'s voice is depicted instructing a 'recruit' to go into the closet. Maybe you can assume good faith with me and help find a way to present this interesting bit of trivia to the community instead of lopping off my work.

The snow white program

I am trying to find one or more documents written by Hubbard that would be primary sources to support the idea that: "The 'Snow White Program' was written by L. Ron Hubbard"
Can you indicate the part of Bare-faced Messiah that associates something Hubbard wrote to the "Snow White Program"? I tried searching the online version and came up empty.
I found this website which shows a document called "Project Hunter" that Chris Owen said was, "written by L. Ron Hubbard himself on 20 April 1973" and was "the original Snow White plan".
Do you know of any other similar documents written by Hubbard and that might represent the Snow White Program as written by Hubbard? --JWSchmidt 03:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how you came up empty with Bare-Faced Messiah, actually. Even if you didn't see the page numbers in the comment, the online version does have the index, where you can look up "Operation Snow White". Checking those occurences would have shown you the text at the end of page 317 and the beginning of 318: "Hubbard, who had never been fettered by convention or strict observance of the law, conceived a simple, but startlingly audacious, plan to improve his own image and that of his church for the benefit of future generations of Scientologists. All that needed to be done, he decided, was to infiltrate the agencies concerned, steal the relevant files and either destroy or launder any damaging information they contained. To a man who had founded both a church and a" -- page 317 ends, page 318 begins -- "private navy this was a perfectly feasible scheme. The operation was given the code name Snow White - two words that would figure ever more prominently over the next few months in the communications between the Guardian's Office in Los Angeles and the Commodore's hiding place in Queens, New York." There you go, a perfectly suitable secondary source, and of course secondary sources are actually preferable to primary sources. However, if you'd like a secondary source that quotes the primary source more directly, try this article from The Globe and Mail: . -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:30, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I am looking for one or more documents that were written by Hubbard. The Operation Snow White article indicates that Hubbard wrote the Snow White Program. The only way to understand what this means and verify it is to find the documents. If we cannot find the original docuents, then we might be able to say, "Mr. X claimed to have seen documents written by Hubbard....."
What document written by Hubbard suggested a plan that was to, "steal the relevant files and either destroy or launder any damaging information they contained"? The one document I found so far ("Project Hunter") contains plans for law suits and says, "Any action taken against this area must also be very polite and not abusive". --JWSchmidt 05:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm sorry for your poor understanding of WP:RS, then. You might want to correct that. -- Antaeus Feldspar 05:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Miscavige the pauper

Anateus, I was examining the Scientology_beliefs_and_practices#Salaries. I have no problem with the statement that they recieve "modest" (or rather, what Americans would call modest) salaries, however I feel that this chapter could mislead readers into thinking that Mr. Miscavige lives a (relatively) spartan life. The pope recieves no salary, and I am sure scientologists are as, if not more, lavish with their leader. For instance, his villa (seen in aerial photographs) is definitely not of the kind usually associated with that salary range.I feel that adding a few sentences to this chapter could help clear things up, what do you think? Yandman 12:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Truth be told, when I looked at that section I asked myself "What is it doing in an article about Scientology beliefs and practices in the first place?" I almost moved it to Scientology as a business immediately, but decided to wait and think about it. The more I think about it, though, the more moving it makes sense; Scientology beliefs and practices is supposed to be about Scientology the religion/belief-system/philosophy/whatever, as specifically opposed to being about the Church of Scientology. Wherever the "Salaries" section ends up going, though, I agree that adding referenced material on "in-kind" rewards Miscavige receives would add valuable context. -- Antaeus Feldspar 13:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you in that this chapter has no place on Scientology beliefs and practices, moreover its inclusion there seems highly suspicious. Is there any way to see who added a particular word/sentence/paragraph without manually going through the history? Yandman 13:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no, there isn't such a way, though it's been proposed many times. I don't think it's actually suspicious, however. When you have a whole nest of closely related articles (as we have on Scientology and the Church of Scientology) it's very hard to always remember how the sub-topics are demarcated. If we accused of bad faith any editor who has ever inserted material into a Scientology-related article that would have been more appropriate in a different Scientology-related article, I have no doubt that we'd be pointing the finger at no less than forty percent of the editors who have ever edited Scientology-related articles -- pro-Scientology and critical viewpoint alike. -- Antaeus Feldspar 14:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

63.209.226.69 added that paragraph. All of his contributions to wikipedia are, to my complete lack of surprise, pro-scientology. Editing wikipedia seems to be a popular pastime for scientologists.... Yandman 14:29, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't tell about beliefs, as in the religion/philosophy as opposed to secular corporation... but it sure is interesting material concerning their practices, and I'd like to know if what those who still believe after breaking away from the church do any differently... What's yu view about this angle? --Svartalf 15:28, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Asif Iqbal (Guantanamo detainee 87) --> Asif Iqbal (detainee) ?_Asif_Iqbal_(detainee)_?-2006-08-03T15:34:00.000Z">

Could you please explain, more fully, why you moved Asif Iqbal (Guantanamo detainee 87) to Asif Iqbal (detainee)? Your edit summary said you moved it because it was "simpler".

Asif Iqbal is, apparently, a common name. Asif Iqbal (detainee) is an insufficiently precise article title, because it could be about Asif Iqbal (Ayodhya bombing suspect), arrested on suspicion of involvement in the 2005 Ram Janmabhoomi attack in Ayodhya, or this Asif Iqbal, detained on suspicion of religious extremism.

If you can't offer a better explanation than simplicity, I think the article title Asif Iqbal (Guantanamo detainee 87) should be restored. It is not only precise enough to distinguish between any other detainee named Asif Iqbal, but it has the advantage that it is consistent with the names of the articles of several dozen other Guantanamo detainees whose names required disambiguation.

FWIW, when you move an article to a new name you are supposed to click on the "what links here" button, and resolve double redirects. In this particular case you didn't seem to have taken the trouble to do so. In this particular case I think this will prove to be an advantage, if you ask an administrator to undo your move.

An administrator will have to undo your move, if Asif Iqbal (Guantanamo detainee 87) is going to retain its edit history. -- Geo Swan 15:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)_Asif_Iqbal_(detainee)_?"> _Asif_Iqbal_(detainee)_?">