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Socialism Stub‑class Mid‑importance

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Politics of the United Kingdom Unassessed

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Requested move 18 August 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. The long-term title has been restored, as it should be considering there was clearly no consensus to move it in the first place. No prejudice against merging, though that is outside the scope of RM. Jenks24 (talk) 16:32, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Far Left Wing → Extreme Left – The existing name is inaccurate. There is already a full and comprehensive Far Left pshr. Estreme Left would be more suitable for this page Garageland66 (talk) 05:48, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

These terms have no meaning except in context and should be merged into left-wing. TFD (talk) 06:57, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

'Hard left', which was this page's previous title, has a clear meaning within the context of the British Labour Party. I strongly suspect that this page has been moved as a response to Jeremy Corbyn's candidacy for leader of that party, as his name has been edited out of the page where it once appeared prominentlyStratpod (talk) 14:36, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose as proposed The English-language Misplaced Pages is not the British Misplaced Pages. These terms are also used outside the UK. Both "Hard left" and "Extreme left" should redirect to far-left politics; This page will necessarily need to be renamed, either Hard left (UK politics) or Extreme left (UK politics) -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 05:28, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
  • If this article is to be merged, then it should be merged after the article is moved to include disambiguatory material, since this term "hard left" should redirect to "far-left politics" ; If this is to be deleted, then this term should still redirect to "far-left politics" after deletion. -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 04:31, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

• 'Hard left' is a pejorative used by the media and should be described as such. It is not recognised in academia, in political science. The terms left wing and far left are the recognised terms used in political science. Support merging into left-wing as a subsection of pejoratives used to describe left wing politicians. (Garageland66 (talk) 08:55, 19 August 2015 (UTC))

• Misplaced Pages is supposed to be impartial and factual. Describing Tony Benn as hard left is neither impartial or factual but is insulting.(Garageland66 (talk) 20:16, 19 August 2015 (UTC))

• Comment/weak oppose The BBC alone has used the term "hard left" 622 times on their website. It seems to be common currency in the UK with relation to the Labour's left-wing and left-of-Labour groups. --Pudeo' 15:50, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

• The BBC linke does not take us to 622 uses of hard left but just to a article quoting Rhodri Morgan using the term "hard left". (Garageland66 (talk) 22:08, 23 August 2015 (UTC))

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Those commonly branded as 'Hard left'

Garageland66, you cannot just omit those who are commonly branded with the term years later because you believe it's 'disrespectful', regardless if you consider it pejorative or not. Everything else you modified is completely unsubstantiated, which is unsurprising from someone associated with the Trade Unions as denoted on your page. Attractel (talk) 12:41, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Garageland66, I see you've decided to continue with your reversals without talking on this page - I know you've read my comment because you've quickly removed your declared association with trade union(s) from your user page after I denoted your probable bias. That's quite sly, wouldn't you say. Attractel (talk) 19:15, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

• In response to the removal of 'trade unionist' (which was not sly but pragmatic); being transparent about my political position was clearly a mistake. Most others, including Attractel, are not nearly as honest. Instead of trying to second guess the political persuasion of contributers, how about we stick to trying to get as near as possible to an objective description of a term such as hard left. (Garageland66 (talk) 14:20, 10 September 2015 (UTC))

• Given the recent edit-warring and ref stripping here, see Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Garageland66_reported_by_User:Andy_Dingley_.28Result:_.29 Andy Dingley (talk) 09:35, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Andy Dingley has edited this page but is not contributing to the Talk page. It cannot be right to smear current politicians with the Hard left label. Yet this is being dismissed as an edit war. Unless those names have the description Hard left used on their Wiki profile pages it is surely wrong that their names are included here. What is the consensus? (Garageland66 (talk) 10:02, 13 September 2015 (UTC)) Garageland66 (talk) 10:02, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a source for itself. Also WP:OSE, a corollary of which is that sometimes other stuff doesn't exist.

It does not matter, for our purposes here, whether Ken Livingstone is described as "hard left" on that page or not. We go by whether an objective sourcing (or the best we can do from independent RS) describes him thus. Then, we see about making both pages accurately reflect how he's described.

Incidentally, he is of course described as being "situated on the party's hard left" within the first paragraph of that article, just as we'd expect. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:36, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

So leave Ken Livingstone there and remove the others. Also the sources are not objective. They're mostly partisan publications. (Garageland66 (talk) 10:57, 13 September 2015 (UTC)) Garageland66 (talk) 10:57, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Is there a consensus to compromise on this. Leave Livingstone in the article (however the Hard left reference on His page is unsourced) and at least remove Corbyn? No one has dared put Hard left on his Wiki profile. It can't be objectively referenced as only media opponents use the pejorative to smear him. Can we compromise? Is there a consensus? (Garageland66 (talk) 11:08, 13 September 2015 (UTC)) Garageland66 (talk) 11:08, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Given the way that all other editors seem to be reverting your blanket removals, then no. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Also could we remove the Breitbart references? Breitbart is a right wing news source. Hardly an objective point of reference for the left! (Garageland66 (talk) 11:18, 13 September 2015 (UTC)) Garageland66 (talk) 11:18, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Breitbart's in there because it's a right wing source. Some of the others are theoretical texts on Marxism. It's a range. You can find sources describing them as "hard left" (and pretty much the same group of people) from across the spectrum. If you think that each name needs a source from academia, the left UK press, centre UK press and right-wing press, then go for it. That's quite a lot for a generally undisputed point though. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:50, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Andy there has only been one other editor aside from you and me. And the third editor has made clear his views on the left and trade unionism? I'm politely asking for a compromise. Corbyn must surely be removed. He is only described as Hard right by opponents and others seeking to undermine him (Garageland66 (talk) 11:22, 13 September 2015 (UTC)) Garageland66 (talk) 11:22, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

And what's my views on the left and trade unionism? I've never commented on trade unions or the left other than pointing out your potential bias as a self-declared trade unionist yourself. It's you who believes that Breitbart should be removed as a source because you believe it's "biased". If we started removing all sources from left and right-wing sources from Misplaced Pages because they're "biased" to one political viewpoint, there would be no Misplaced Pages at all. Furthermore, as seen over the past few years, there has clearly been a silent consensus among the editors that the information you're trying to blanket remove is indeed acceptable and relevant which is why it wasn't previously disputed. You're a one-man band. Attractel (talk) 22:37, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Current politicians

It doesn't seem right to categorise current political figures as hard left. The term is not used in academia. It's not used by any of the listed political figures themselves and its hardly impartial to use such a controversial term to describe such people especially in the light of the current Labour leadership contest. Describing Corbyn as hard left is not a matter of fact. It's surely a matter of subjective political interpretation by elements in political debate that are opposed to Corbyn. Unless there is a consensus to keep these names, I suggest removing them. (Garageland66 (talk) 13:20, 10 September 2015 (UTC))

• No one is being branded as hard-left by anyone on Misplaced Pages. It's a statement of fact, and has been agreed upon for many years that those individuals were the ones branded as such by the media - which is entirely relevant as that's where the term sprung up. We wouldn't just remove something Hitler said about the jews, because you believe it's offensive. That's history, and it's being documented here on Misplaced Pages. Attractel (talk) 22:18, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Poor analogy. If Hitler referred to the Labour left as the hard left it would not make it fact. Nor does such a description by a minority of the mass media. (Garageland66 (talk) 03:44, 13 September 2015 (UTC)) Garageland66 (talk) 03:44, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

• You just don't seem to be able to comprehend the difference: We're relaying the history of where the term hard-left originated from and who were commonly branded as the term by the media, whether they are that term or not. The Misplaced Pages article is not calling them hard left whatsoever, and therefore you have no reason to delete it unless you're actively seeking trouble from Misplaced Pages staff. Attractel (talk) 22:24, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Hard Right

No page exists for Hard Right. Hard right redirects to Far Right. Can I suggest that the same is done with Hard Left. The Hard Left page be put into the Far Left page. Is there a consensus on this? (Garageland66 (talk) 13:26, 10 September 2015 (UTC))

• Hard Right has never been defined as being anything other than interchangeable with the far-right. However, the Hard Left has been, as denoted in the very Misplaced Pages article you're trying to redirect. The only reason you don't like this article Garageland66, is because you've continuously tried to remove names which were commonly branded with the term which are entirely relevant to where it originated from; the media. No one is saying they are that term as described nevertheless. I'm sorry, but not you may not like everything on Misplaced Pages, but that doesn't mean it's going to be removed. Attractel (talk) 22:29, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting removal. I'm suggesting merging it with Far left just as has happened with the Hard right. Surely, for reasons of impartiality, this would be the right thing to do (Garageland66 (talk) 03:48, 13 September 2015 (UTC)) Garageland66 (talk) 03:48, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

• For the reasons of impartiality? That makes no sense. It doesn't need to be redirected or merged, because the Hard Left--in Britain at least-- has a sharp distinction from 'far left'. Attractel (talk) 22:25, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Protected

Due to ongoing edit warring this page has been protected for a week to encourage discussion rather than continuing to revert. Any further edit warring after the protection expires will be viewed very dimly. Stifle (talk) 07:33, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 16 September 2015

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The following:

Politicians commonly branded as hard left in the Labour Party included Derek Hatton, Ken Livingstone, Dennis Skinner and Eric Heffer.

Should be reverted back to (replaced) with:

Politicians associated with the hard left in the Labour Party included Diane Abbott, Jeremy Corbyn, Ken Livingstone, Dennis Skinner and Eric Heffer.

The reason being:

The original version should be restored because there was no consensus to change it in the first place. And it has not been changed for many years without anyone disputing it either. There is zero consensus for it to be the current version as it is now.

The only person disputing to omit a few names was Garageland66 as seen on the talk page - he's the only person who wanted to change it, and the individual who kept reverting it back to his version without using the talk page first. No one else over the years have disputed it, and me and Andy Dingley have evidently been opposing its' change.

The article was protected on the version of Garageland66's edit without consensus because he was reported by another editor with the support of myself for changing it in the first place and continuing to revert edits back to his version with clear opposition and no consensus. I refrained from reverting his edit again because I was hoping the admin would do something about it. It should be changed back to the original version of which we can then try to reach a consensus to change it.

Attractel (talk) 02:09, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

 Declined.

1. Protection is not an endorsement of the current page version. See m:The Wrong Version.
2. The page does not have to be reverted in order for anyone to discuss it (and nobody has started any discussion yet).
3. Protected pages are only edited where the edit is uncontroversial or supported by consensus.

Get talking. Stifle (talk) 08:52, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

1. Hill, Dave (2002). Marxism Against Postmodernism in Educational Theory. Lexington Books. p. 188. ISBN 0739103466.
2. Andrew Roth (20 March 2001). "Dennis Skinner". The Guardian. Andrew Roth's parliament profiles.
3. Thorpe, Andrew (2008). A History of the British Labour Party (3rd ed.). Palgrave Macmillan. p. 228. ISBN 1137248157.
4. Lauren Fedor (18 August 2015). "Labour MP Diane Abbott: Can the left wing regain City Hall?". City A.M.
5. ^ Liam Deacon (29 July 2015). "Labour's Hard Left Revival Gathers Momentum: Jeremy Corbyn And Diane Abbott Back Rent Controls, Stronger Unions and More Immigration". Breitbart.com.
6. Stephen Castle (12 September 2015). "With Jeremy Corbyn Elected as New Leader, Britain's Labour Party Takes a Hard Left Turn". New York Times.
7. Hill, Dave (2002). Marxism Against Postmodernism in Educational Theory. Lexington Books. p. 188. ISBN 0739103466.
8. Andrew Roth (20 March 2001). "Dennis Skinner". The Guardian. Andrew Roth's parliament profiles.
9. Thorpe, Andrew (2008). A History of the British Labour Party (3rd ed.). Palgrave Macmillan. p. 228. ISBN 1137248157.

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