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	Jews has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result January 23, 2006 Good article nominee Listed July 6, 2008 Good article reassessment Kept October 6, 2008 Peer review Reviewed February 26, 2009 Good article reassessment Kept Current status: Good article

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Portraits

I suggest replacing Emmy Noether with Rita Levi-Montalcini. The latter was also a female scientist but not an Ashkenazi (who at this point represent all Jews since the times of Spinoza in the Infobox). Also, Levi-Montalcini, unlike Noether, was a Nobel laureate. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 09:22, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

A good article about an interesting person. I enthusiastically endorse this proposal. Debresser (talk) 10:58, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I was also thinking, nearly all of them are modern Jews. Instead of George Gershwin (who was influential but did little on the subject of Jews/Judaism) we could instead use Josephus. Thoughts?
Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 12:07, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I wasn't under the impression that a criterion for inclusion was doing something big for Jews/Judaism. In fact, I think there's something to be said for including Jews who are known for other areas of notability. I don't think all of them fit that criterion. Sundayclose (talk) 01:00, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Prinsgezinde, I'd mildly oppose that proposal. I see nothing wrong with having mostly modern people in the collage. After all, a collage is supposed to appeal to people, and modern people, who may be recognized by the readers of this encyclopedia, appeal more than ancient people. Please note that I am not saying that I oppose having ancient people in collages, but I definitely do not see having ancient people as a must. By the way, Josephus, even though he is know as being a Jewish general and from the priestly tribe, was very much a Hellenist. Debresser (talk) 18:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree about Josephus. This article ignores about 2000 years of recorded Jewish history. If not Josephus, why not Judas Maccabeus? He's the opposite of Hellenist.--Monochrome_Monitor 20:45, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree that these portraits do not accurately represent the diversity of the Jewish population. There should be photos of Jews from Ethiopia (Beta Israel), India (Bene Israel), China (Kaifeng Jews), etc. Not all Jews are Ashkenazic or Sephardic. Userapd758 (talk) 01:52, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

The vast majority of Jews are Ashkenazic, Sephardic, or Mizrahi. We should be representative of the Jewish population. I still think we should include older Jews though. It's a shame we skip over so much history. --Monochrome_Monitor 10:55, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Are any of these portraits even of Mizrahi Jews? It is ahistorical and perhaps discriminatory to not represent Jews from diverse backgrounds. I am Ashkeazic, and it is easy for me to find photos of Jews that look like me. This page should be inclusive as it is a page for all Jews, not specifically Ashkenazic or Sephardic. Some examples: Famous Bollywood dancer Ruby Myers (Bhagdad), former Miss Israel Yityish Aynaw (Beta Israel), internationally acclaimed singer Ofra Haza (Yememite), the activist Abbie Hoffman (Persian-Jewish ancestry), singer Paula Abdual (Mizrahi ancestry), famous Rabbi Yosef Qafih (Yemenite) etc. This page should be inclusive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Userapd758 (talk • contribs)

Please refrain from signing your comments with my signature. --Monochrome_Monitor 18:42, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Again with the inflated number estimate

I don't understand what kind of bias would motivate the labeling of "those in a Jewish household" who are not ethnically, religiously, or self-identifying as Jewish as Jews in the article. Clearly, this estimate ] which is both more recent and more accurate (only including those with at least one jewish parent, who practice the religion, or who otherwise identify as Jews) is superior. It makes no sense. I seriously can't think of any reason someone who has read the description of the "broader estimate" considers it a valid measure of the world's Jews. By that logic, anyone married to a Dane would be Danish (or, using a religious definition of judaism, anyone married to a buddhist would be buddhist). --Monochrome_Monitor 19:33, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Unless I missed something, I think you misunderstand the statement in the article. My understanding of the meaning is that someone cannot be labeled Jewish solely by being in a Jewish household (such as a non-Jew who marries a Jew). Instead, if someone is identified as Jewish "by a respondent in the same household" they are considered to be Jewish. So hypothetically, if a mother is not Jewish, father is Jewish, by some definitions the child is not necessarily Jewish by birth (not born of a Jewish mother). But, according to the statement in the article, if one of the parents identifies the child as Jewish, then the child is Jewish for two reasons: identified as Jewish "by a respondent in the same household", and has one Jewish parent. It may largely be a moot point because in most circumstances if there are three people in a household and one of those people identifies another one as Jewish, I think it would usually be a parent identifying their child as Jewish. Sundayclose (talk) 20:50, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

That applies to the low estimate, all those in the low estimate are identified as such by themselves or someone in the same household. But the high estimate referenced as "broader" directs to . How they define the broad estimate: "Sum of(a) core Jewish population; (b) all other not currently Jewish persons with a Jewish parent; and (c) all other non‐Jewish household members (spouses, children, etc.)." I don't believe "non-Jewish household members", ie spouses etc (children are included in (b) but spouses aren't) should be included. As an alternative, this article records a high estimate (including all those with one jewish parent or who self-identify as partially jewish) of 16.5 million. --Monochrome_Monitor 23:15, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Forgive me if I'm being dense, but where is the "high estimate" mentioned in the Misplaced Pages article? What I found in the Demographics section is 13,421,000 estimate by Israel Central Bureau of Statistics and 13.2 million estimate by Jewish People Policy Planning Institute. I see the high estimate of 18,197,000 by www.jewishdatabank.org, but so far I haven't found that in the Misplaced Pages article. Thanks. Sundayclose (talk) 01:17, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

It's in the infobox under "Total population" --Monochrome_Monitor 02:12, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Also, you're not being dense, I often have the same problem. :) --Monochrome_Monitor 02:13, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for that detail! In that case, I agree with you. But I think we should see if anyone can defend the rationale for the "high estimate" here before it is removed. Sundayclose (talk) 02:31, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Here is the relevant passage in the source:

All this holds true regarding the core Jewish population, which does not include non-Jewish members of Jewish households, persons of Jewish ancestry who profess another monotheistic religion, other non-Jews of Jewish ancestry, other non-Jews connected with Jews, and other non-Jews who may be interested in Jewish matters. If an enlarged Jewish population definition is considered, including non-Jews who have Jewish parents, a global aggregate population estimate of 15,773,000 is obtained. By adding non-Jewish members of Jewish households, the enlarged estimate grows to 18,197,000. Finally, under the comprehensive three-generation and lateral provisions of Israel's Law of Return, the total Jewish and non-Jewish eligible population can be roughly estimated at 21,650,000.

Indeed, the 18 million figures include non-Jews so there is no reason to count them as Jews. The relevance of this number is of interest for Jewish institutions and the State of Israel but not to a wikipedia article about the number of Jews in the world. The large estimation should be the 15,7 millions figure. Benjil (talk) 04:32, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Again, The 18M figure is labeled as Enlarged Jewish population, the same category the includes ~300K Jews in Israel that aren't recognized by the Halakha. Excluding this figure will also exclude a large number of Jews. Ironically, the the lowest figure (~13M) may also include non-Jews(converts for example, but still recognized by the orthodox law). The numbers are very unclear and the best solution is simply displaying a wide range without specifying an exact number. Infantom (talk) 11:01, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

The "enlarged Jewish population" is a nonsense if it includes people who are 100% non-Jews. They are not "enlarged Jews" or whatever. This category has been invented for all kind of reasons relative to Jewish organizations and their outreach goals but I do not think that it concerns Misplaced Pages. The 300K in Israel are a different case because most of them are part Jewish and identify as Jews and so are counted in the "core" population. And by the way, converts are 100% Jews. I agree that concerning Diaspora numbers are unclear, but we would not accept the 18M figures if it's own source says it includes non-Jews. We are trying to estimate the number of Jews and te 13-16M range seems to be reasonable. Benjil (talk) 12:15, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Invented category or not, it includes also Jews. When you ignore it you simply exclude numbers of Jews and all the figure in the info box becomes worthless and unreliable. The current specified range provides the best assurance for the correct figures. Converts might be Jews according to the orthodox law which is not our guideline here, in our case they are not, especially if they do not self identify as such. Infantom (talk) 12:54, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry I do not understand you. This category adds 2 million non-Jews to the other categories of Jews we already have. So it's useless and worthless and unreliable, exactly. We can also say that there are between 0 and 7 billion Jews if you want "the best assurance". And converts - there has been a misunderstanding I thought you were speaking about converts to Judaism not out of Judaism. So that only reinforces what I said. Benjil (talk) 13:49, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Benjil. The number of Jews (self-identifying, or one Jewish parent, or identified as Jewish by a member of the household) is already included in the lower estimates. The inflated portion includes non-Jews in Jewish households and, in my opinion, should not be included in the Misplaced Pages article. I also question the accuracy of the adherents.com high estimate of 18 million. If you go to their website and click on their link for that information it gives a figure of 14.5 million. I suggest that we remove the statement about adherents.com.

THANK YOU ALL! I've been talking about this for months and thought I was crazy for being the only one who was apparently bothered by it. I suggest we give a high estimate of 16.5 million, which includes those with one jewish parent or who identify as "partially jewish". --Monochrome_Monitor 18:22, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Also, "0 to 7 billion Jews" is pretty funny. Maybe uncyclopedia? --Monochrome_Monitor 18:31, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

How do you know it's 2M non Jews? It is stated the figure includes people of Jewish ancestry (grandparents) and also specifically those ~300K non-Halackic Jews in Israel. You simply ignore an estimation that takes also 100% Jews into consideration while accepting non Jews in the core population estimation. I honestly couldn't care less at this point, but this current range is even more incorrect. Infantom (talk) 20:08, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

No, it's stated that includes the core Jewish population and "non Jews in Jewish households". --Monochrome_Monitor 21:00, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment A bit less hasty, there is no clear consensus for that change. And what you did was to change information coming from some identified sources while keeping the sources, and that is not allowed even when there is a consensus for the change. Could I also remind everybody that when there is a conflict between what is true and what do sources say, then we always go by the sources. I'm not opposed to the proposed change as such, if it can be demonstrated using reliable sources. Jeppiz (talk) 21:33, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there is a consensus. In your edit summary you state that a consensus "wouldn't matter". Misplaced Pages does not have to blindly follow one source's claim that non-Jews in Jewish households should be included in the total number of Jews. If there are differences of opinion about how to define "Jewish", that is exactly why consensus is for. There is no claim here that a consensus on Misplaced Pages can change what is in the source. The consensus determines what is stated in a Misplaced Pages article. And what exactly is not demonstrated by a reliable source? Sundayclose (talk) 00:39, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

I used the same source. The same source that gives the 18 million also gives the 15 million figure. --Monochrome_Monitor 01:26, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Anyway, I can't revert it because I'm trying not to violate 1RR again. --Monochrome_Monitor 01:28, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

References

1. http://time.com/3939972/global-jewish-population/

Please explain these words

@Reenem What is a "top Jewish demographer"? Debresser (talk) 12:10, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I removed "top". His article describes him as a demographer. Sundayclose (talk) 13:38, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Okay, per WP:PEACOCK, I suppose.

So he is Jewish and he is a demographer? Or did you mean by "Jewish demographer" that he is a demographer of Jews? Debresser (talk) 14:22, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Good point. I revised to clarify. Thanks for pointing that out. Sundayclose (talk) 14:45, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Lead cleanup

The lead is too long. It can't stay that way. I was trying to remove the least important paragraphs but I got reverted. Please let's discuss a way to shorten the lead. Huritisho 16:11, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

You're right that it's too long. A bit too much about the history of the Jewish people. What do you suggest we remove? --Monochrome_Monitor 16:30, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

I would remove what I already tried to remove, as a start. See the history. Huritisho 18:44, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

I suggest trimming small amounts from many topics in the lead rather than completely eliminating the info on Israel. Israel is very important in Jewish identity, both historically and currently. Sundayclose (talk) 19:28, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks to the editor who did the job of shortening the lead Huritisho 01:47, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Sundayclose that the short paragraph about Israel is paramount. Debresser (talk) 16:53, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Infantom addition

Infantom has attempted to add "in the end of the 2nd millennium BCE" and similar comments to a sentence in the Lead. I have reverted, explaining that the resulting sentence "descended from the Israelites of the Ancient Near East in the end of the 2nd millennium BCE" is ungrammatical, is unclear, and the change is unsupported by the existing references. If you could rework the paragraph/sentence to be grammatical, clarify (the modified sentence would say that the Jews "descended" in the 2nd millennium BCE?) and provide some references for whatever is supposed to have happened then. Thanks. Editor2020, Talk 05:43, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

1) Both "2nd millennium BCE" and 13th century BCE are specified in the sources, read them.

2) I rather not change much the current sentence as it's a long standing consensus, well sourced and appropriate as it is.

3) What is exactly unclear? The date indicates the era the Israelites were originated in. Infantom (talk) 16:52, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

What do you think of my latest changes to the lead? I tried to incorporate both of your ideas. Musashiaharon (talk) 05:58, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

I have made some changes, i relocated the Israelite-related sources to the right spot, added Semitic definition with sources and added wikilinks. I have also changed "Ancient Near East" to the Land of Israel, since in this new context it is about the Jews as an ethno-national group and not Israelites anymore. Infantom (talk) 11:29, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you @Musashiaharon:, you did an excellent job. Editor2020, Talk 12:55, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion

Can we replace Portman in the infobox with The Divine Sarah? Seriously, she's awesome. --Monochrome_Monitor 14:33, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate you being bold and making the edit, but please see the WP:BOLD page in the WP:CAREFUL section, that in areas that have been the subject of frequent disagreements, you should avoid being bold. I have undone your edit, till such time as this has been discussed and a consensus established. Debresser (talk) 17:12, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Sarah Bernhardt is a an acting legend. She's infinitely more infobox worthy than Portman. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:49, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Also, not sure why we got rid of Nuer. She was more influential than the other. Ethnic subgroup should not matter.--Monochrome_Monitor 02:27, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Am I the only one with an enthusiasm for the legitimate theatre? I suppose now that I think about it I have an enthusiasm for every "obsolete" medium- hence the monochrome monitor. Irredisregardless, I'm going to be militant about getting Portman switched to Bernhardt. If we want to show a Jewish actress, that's the most famous jewish actress of all time. Arguably the most famous actress of all time. I can't see any cons. Also, can someone crop the spinoza pic? It's bothering me with its wideness.--Monochrome_Monitor 02:35, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Cite grouping

In the lead paragraphs the numerous cites get disruptive. Yes, people deny Jewish descent from Israelites and need a firm reminder, but isn't there a way to group cites into one box-type thing? --Monochrome_Monitor 14:34, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

The first paragraph is one of the dumbest pieces of WP:SYNTH on Misplaced Pages, patching up a general definition out of several features each of which forms part of some Jewish identities. The last time I checked many of the sources, they also do not correspond, or are too dated. I won't touch this stuff of course, but some insider who has a grasp on how groups are defined would do this place a favour if they could work out an intelligent reformulation. There's a very substantial literature on Jewish definitions of Jews, and almost none of it is used here, I suspect because obtaining a 'Jewish' consensus is, thank goodness, all but impossible.Nishidani (talk) 14:46, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Nishidani, those sources you mentioned have already been replaced by others. What kind of Jewish definitions are you referring to that are not used here? Infantom (talk) 15:11, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Sources that quite clearly state, and I could give dozens, that the definition itself (as with most historic groups) is very complex.I.e.,Nishidani (talk) 15:22, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

• Morris N. Kertzer What is a Jew?, Simon and Schuster, 1996 p.7 says fundamentally all Jews are Jews by choice and that the ‘ethnic definition is going the way of the dinosaur.
• Michael Greenstein The American Jew: A Contradiction in Terms, Gefen Publishing House Ltd, 1990 pp.1ff.
• Marc Lee Raphael, Judaism in America, Columbia University Press, 2012 pp.22
• Alain F. Corcos Who is a Jew? Thoughts of a Biologist : An Essay Dedicated to the Jewish and Non-Jewish Victims of the Nazi Holocaust, Wheatmark, 2012 Ist chapter.

Most of the sources are not linked to pages, many of them are pointless (definition of Semite, or question-begging (saying Israelites became know as Hebrew does not testify to the descent of modern Jews from Israelites: it is an inference left to the reader) etc.etc.etc..Nishidani (talk) 15:28, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

These sources recognize the definitions that are used here. We know Jews have a complex variety of definitions: ethnic, religious, national, cultural etc.. and they are all acceptable. Do you have a better way to briefly express these complicated definitions, including origins (ethnic, geographic and national), than the current paragraph? Infantom (talk) 15:50, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Okay, let me construe the definition. Remember, a definition must fit all constituents of the set it describes.

The Jews are a Semitic ethnoreligious group and nation native to the Land of Israel, also referred to as an ethno-cultural group and a civilization. With origins dating back to the early 2nd millennium BCE, they are descended from the Israelites and the historical kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

That means that a Jew has all of those elements, he is 'semitic', native to the Land of Israel (a religious, not a topological concept) descended from Israelites and Israel and Judah.

All of the above sources, and dozens more, would deny elements of all of this, since many Jews are known not to be of semitic origin (given conversion, even now), many ancient Jewish populations were not native to the soi-disant Land of Israel, and no one can descend from a kingdom (Judah and 1srael). You descend from people, not from territories, unless you have a genetic relationship to mythical Thebans. It is like saying I am descended from the Kingdom of Munster. The idiocy is not only in that, but in trying to patch up all the relevant identitarian terms (race, nation, religion) to make them coextensive. You can be a Jew by descent but not religion, a Jew by religion but not descent, etc.Nishidani (talk) 16:54, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Converts are a minority, and when drawing up a description minorities should be ignored. Debresser (talk) 17:16, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I am not speaking of contemporary converts, Debresser. Both genetics and history indicate that there is a substantial ethnic diversity within Jews. Large numbers of Mediterranean peoples converted, before and after the CE. Nishidani (talk) 17:23, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

1) Semites are a linguistic group, Jews are Semites because of their belonging to that group. But we can drop that if editors think it's unnecessary.

2) Do you have a better name for the geographic origin of the Jews except for the "Land of Israel"? It is the most frequent name used by Jews to refer to their geographic origin. The nativity to the land is in the sense of where the Jews were originally formed as an ethnic group and nation, not implying that every Jew in the world is native to this land. Are all French or English people native to France and England?

3) We can change to "originated from" (Judah and Israel) and solve it. These two kingdoms are the national origins of the Jews.

4) Neither of the used definitions contradict your last argument. Nobody claimed that belonging to the Jewish ethnicity or nationhood is dependent on descent.

Jews, as a collective, are descended from the Israelites. Even if not necessarily by genetics(some of them), still by their culture, religion, language, nationhood and collective identity. How would you define the origins of the Jews then? Infantom (talk) 17:59, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Can someone else who actually understands the issues raised please address them. This is not a website for asserting one's personal beliefs.Nishidani (talk) 18:55, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

That wasn't very civil. Mmyers1976 (talk) 21:49, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I have opened a discussion on this on the NOR noticeboard.Nishidani (talk) 20:18, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Genetics have established that most actual Jews descend from the ancient Israelite population, with some admixture from other people, mostly converts during the Roman era. There is not one group of people today that is exactly the descendant of their ancestors of 2000 years ago. Even the Chinese Han population is genetically a mix of diverse South-Eastern populations that have been incorporated into the Han ethnos. Bu all accounts and definitions, the actual Jews are the descendants of the Israelites - biologically (mostly), culturally, religiously... All this is pretty well known and standard. Benjil (talk) 20:37, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Genetics has not established that. The Jews were in diaspora from at least the 6th century B.C.E. esp. in Egypt (Elephantine). The ancient Israelite population was a great mixture of peoples. It is fantastically absurd to say, as the definition does, that all Jews descend from people resident in either the kingdom of Israel or that of Judah, furthermore. There is simply no historical or genetic method capable of determining the veracity of such an assertion. It is made up, and if conversion and interbreeding were widespread, the descendents come from several places, and peoples, not one. Even quite a few of the genetic papers speak of a Levantine component, not Judah and Israel kingdoms, meaning the Near East generally not a specific zone in Palestine.Nishidani (talk) 20:45, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani Yes, there have been converts through all ages. Still, that doesn't change the fact that as a group, Jews trace back their national and religious sources to Israel. Converts are neglected in this regard, regardless of the degree of admixture of converts for any specific person.

To even more directly answer your question, the reason is probably that after a few generations, the convert origins are forgotten. But the real reason is the first, IMHO. Debresser (talk) 21:59, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

As an exercise for reader, compare Nishidani's insistence here that a definition "fit all constituents of the set it describes" to his comments on another ethnic group where he insists the definition be deliberately vague and that it doesn't necessarily need to fit all constituents of anything. It starts here and then goes on over several pages. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:33, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Delightful hypocrisy. --Monochrome_Monitor 02:36, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, he has a simple problem: that there exists no Palestinian people, and never has. It is a modern term, originated in the certain interests. But there definitely is a Jewish people! Debresser (talk) 07:44, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, 3 useless comments. The first is stupid, because the single phrase is not a composite sentence or definition, and is backed by several sources, whereas the Jewish definition is modeled on it, and has several constituent elements, each documented, in a sentence for which there is no single source or set of sources corroborating the definition. I know that to edit here, the first step is to throw away logic, the second to think in terms of POV advantages, and the third to rally support. As to Debresser's remark, it shows why he should not be editing articles in the I/P area, since he openly declares my people exist, the other 'people' don't exist as a people.Nishidani (talk) 16:24, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Also, you guys missed the point, dammit. Pay attention. I was saying we should group cites together so they are less disruptive. --Monochrome_Monitor 02:37, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

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