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Revision as of 08:47, 10 August 2006 view sourceMboverload (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers39,898 edits Request for help← Previous edit Revision as of 08:48, 10 August 2006 view source Bishonen (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators80,332 edits [] again: No indefinite blockNext edit →
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:No, this certainly does not warrant an indefinite block. Cardsplayer4life shows an agreeable and cooperative attitude in his comments above and on his talk page. If he, while blocked, logged out and reverted again, that's a very bad action, but it may well have been an action made in frustration about being blocked so brusquely. Given the attitude of cooperativity he displays here, I think we should be forgiving in this case. At least ask him first if (and why) he did it. :No, this certainly does not warrant an indefinite block. Cardsplayer4life shows an agreeable and cooperative attitude in his comments above and on his talk page. If he, while blocked, logged out and reverted again, that's a very bad action, but it may well have been an action made in frustration about being blocked so brusquely. Given the attitude of cooperativity he displays here, I think we should be forgiving in this case. At least ask him first if (and why) he did it.
:Also, blocks should be ]. Is there any reason to expect any more wrongdoing from Cardsplayer4life's part, or are some people here entertaining the thought of a punitive block? (Note that he says on his talk page he will not edit that particular page again.) &mdash; ] ] 08:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC) :Also, blocks should be ]. Is there any reason to expect any more wrongdoing from Cardsplayer4life's part, or are some people here entertaining the thought of a punitive block? (Note that he says on his talk page he will not edit that particular page again.) &mdash; ] ] 08:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
::Agree wholeheartedly with Mark. I believe ''all'' recently blocked users should be cut some slack regarding what they do in the frustration of reacting to the block. For instance, don't scrutinize their posts for personal attacks, don't expect model behavior, don't take it so personally if they tell you how abusive you are. A block is a shock. All admins are more powerful than all regular users; but admins are so '''much''' more powerful than a blocked user that it should give them pause. It's not the right moment to express your irritation with how much trouble the user is being by slapping on an indefinite. Assume even more good faith than usual. This all goes double if the first block can be seen as dubious or unfair. I support unblocking now. Oh, and btw, I'm assuming good faith on Deckiller's comment that we "might be able to get an indefinite for this": I'm sure he didn't mean it as crassly as it sounded. ] | ] 08:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC).


== Spelling war == == Spelling war ==

Revision as of 08:48, 10 August 2006

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    IP 24.57.20.241

    Obscene vandalism.

    IP 12.10.34.242

    That IP is held by a large law firm. It seems someone at the firm has recently discovered how to edit Misplaced Pages articles. Most of their edits are really vandalism ast listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=12.10.34.242 I sent an email to the law firm and someone else warned them on their talk page.

    User:Tchadienne

    I'm being harassed by several users, which is nothing new. So far today, an admin actually did something in response to a complaint I posted (against User:Arbiteroftruth who was posting personal attacks on several users' pages), which is more than I can say for any admin I have ever encountered on Misplaced Pages.

    Now, I once again ask the admins of Misplaced Pages, to do something. User:JzG, who somehow got elected to adminship, continues to threaten to indefinitely block me and says he will protect my talkpage if I continue to revert supposed "warnings" against my "vandalism." I have already proven, at length on User talk:Daduzi, that I am right, and others are wrong. JzG continues to engage in personal attacks against User:Incorrect, vandalizes The Guardian, and vandalizes my talkpage. Block him and warn him about wikistalking. Tchadienne 18:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

    JzG appears to be doing the best he can toward the goal of trying to get you to cease your blatant assumptions of bad faith and breaches of civility. I cannot say I envy him the job. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    I agree with Tchadienne, can some admin please do something? On Talk:The Guardian, there has been made a clear threat to edit war, and to game the system w.r.t. 3RR. As for the rest, it is a content dispute; bring it to WP:RFC if you must; not here. Content disputes should not be solved with admin powers. Eugène van der Pijll 18:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    I don't know a great deal about the specifics of this incident, but just from your tone it's not difficult to see why users aren't rushing to assist you. In two short paragrahps, you've managed to accuse others of vandalizing articles and making personal attacks, insisted that you've proven yourself to be correct, insulted all Misplaced Pages admins (singling out JzG) as well as demanding that JzG be blocked. Have you considered that perhaps a less aggressive tone would lead to better results? Aren't I Obscure? 18:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    Tchadienne is intent on inserting a criticism section into The Guardian based on the "fact" that an article castigating Mel Gibson for a drunken outburst is somehow antisemitism. Or something. His failure to persuade others of the merits of his case (essentially the result of a mixture of WP:OR and failure to cite any reliable sources) led him to edit war over an NPOV tag; per policy it's pretty clear that failure to persuade others of the merit of your case is not grounds for tagging an article. I have just blocked Tchadienne for 24h for removing {{wr}} from his talkpage, which is blatant WP:POINT. Our interaction thus far is brief enough that an assertion of harrassment is risible. I fear that what we have hear is a Bearer of Truth with all the problems that usually entails. Just zis Guy you know? 18:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    A Jeanne d’Arc, actually. Anyway, User:Tchadienne doesn’t like not being able to edit, check out 4.249.3.40 (talk · contribs). —xyzzyn 19:21, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    Well if you thought that removing {{wr}} was blatant, try this edit summary: Just zis Guy you know? 19:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    Regarding the preventive value of a 24h block, see also the user’s old accounts: , . The user is not just a troll—there are many good edits—, but occasionally somewhat lacking in the area of WP:CIVIL and liable to misinterpret WP:V. HTH. —xyzzyn 19:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    Indeed - this bears all the hallmarks of a frustrated bearer of The Truth; as usual when the reliable sources fail to back The Truth the only possible solution is to use the sources we have and explain how they are reliable, honest they are, even if they are blogs. It's not so much that he doesn't take kindly to threats, it's that he doesn't take kindly to being thwarted, and apparently interprets anything that prevents him geting his way as a threat, thus alowing him (in his eyes) to ignore it. This busines sof The Guardian being antisemitic because it had a Jerusalem correspondent who was critical of the Israeli Government is pretty typical stuff; without wanting to venture into political debate I think it's not exactly a secret that some people accuse anybody who is not completely uncritical of Israel of being antisemitic rather than anti-Israeli Government, because antisemitism has such uniquely atrocious connotations. Just zis Guy you know? 20:06, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    Its no secret that anyone saying "without getting into anything political" is about to get into something political. Although in your case it was also wrong and inappropriate to bring it up here as well.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 21:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    Where did that come from? A tendentious editor has accused a long-established British newspaper of anti-semitism, despite its history of support for the existence of the state of Israel, because it had the temerity to publish reports critical of the Israeli government. No reliable sources have been presented to back the assertion that this paper is anti-semitic. The anti-semitism in question appears to be entirely restricted to the portrayal of comtemporary Israeli government policy. A barrow is being pushed, in other words. Just zis Guy you know? 22:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    I really have no desire to get invovled with this dispute. However, I found the above statement- "I think it's not exactly a secret that some people accuse anybody who is not completely uncritical of Israel of being antisemitic" was inappropriate to bring up here. Since it very much relates to divisive and emotive issues. Your comment was needlessly inflammatory.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 22:27, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    Well, it wasn't inflammatory until you actually inflamed it -- providing, unintentionally, I'm sure, evidence by example for JzG's statement. --Calton | Talk 00:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
    I generally agree with your comments, Calton (and JzG's for that matter), but in this case I cannot. The statement was simply inflammatory and unnecessary. I didn't agree with Tchadienne's edits, and told him so, but if JzG really didn't want to "enter into a political debate", then he shouldn't have. Jayjg 04:56, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
    "Silence those who oppose freedom of speech!" ;-) Just zis Guy you know?
    I for one do not feel inflamed. This whole affair demonstrates that editors should not edit articles unless they can detach themselves from them emotionally. Stephen B Streater 08:59, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

    And I agree with JzG's characterisation of the origin of the dispute. It is impossible to describe the conflict without mentioning the political misunderstanding that Tchadienne appears to be labouring under; that any criticism of Israel amounts to anti-Semitism. It does not. --Guinnog 12:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

    Tchadienne is now posting as User:NOBS, as he says himself: "this is in use until the block wears off" --Guinnog 19:36, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
    Historical note: iirc, the last time, someone had to block 4.249.0.0/16 to stop the user. —xyzzyn 19:48, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
    It must be approaching that stage again, one would think? --Guinnog 19:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
    I've blocked NOBS indefinitely, and extended Tchadienne's block to 72 hours from now. If it happens again, I would endorse the above range block. Ral315 (talk) 19:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
    This is tedious and unacceptable behaviour and the time is approaching when we should consider doing something mroe permanent about it. Just zis Guy you know? 20:41, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
    OK, per Tchadienne is still playing silly buggers, so I porpose to enact the rangeblock above. Just zis Guy you know? 21:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
    I support the rangeblock proposal; it's really unfortunate, as this user has many good edits.--Firsfron of Ronchester 21:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
    Same here. Many good edits, but I think he would benefit from a block. --Guinnog 21:24, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
    Sure, many good edits. And quite a few bad ones. And above all an absolute contempt for any attempt to enforce policy Just zis Guy you know? 22:17, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
    Agreed, the bad far outweighs the good. I agree with Ra1315 that if he does it again it should be a range block. I would urge consideration of a permanent ban as well, unless there is real evidence that the user has changed his ways. It's an awful waste of everybody's time and energy to have to babysit like this when we could be doing something more useful. Let's wait and see for a day or two for now. --Guinnog 23:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

    First of all I want to say that as a long time collaborator of Tchadienne, my opinion may be biased, even if I hope it's not. That said, I know Tchadienne and I can tell what he isn't - a troll. In the wikiproject we both work on, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Chad, I have never had to revert his edits, or introduce radical changes; and I have never had any problems reverting my friends if their edits did not comply with WP:NPOV or WP:V (I edit also a lot on problematic articles concerning the Balkans, so this happens very often). And I believe that Tchadienne's concerns regarding the Guardian article were legitimate and founded, even if I must admit Tchadienne's solution, a criticism section, was not a great idea. I also know that Tchadienne often has a difficult character, and that he tends to over-react; but his dedition to NPOV is true and authentic. We need more editors like Tchadienne, not less, and as for these "quite a few bad ones", i.e. bad edits, I must be a bit strabic, because I seem to have strangely missed them. I'm afraid I have instead detected a certain animus by JzG against Tchadienne. Please remember what is said about controversial blocks at WP:BLOCK: among them are blocks of logged-in users with a substantial history of valid contributions, regardless of the reasoning for the block. For this I feel the community should be lenient, and his block should be reduced in respect, among other things, for the quality work done in areas almost ignored by wikipedia. I won't reduce his block myself, because my action could be biased; but I feel all the same it should be reduced.--Aldux 23:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

    24 hour blocks are no real punishment. They can be issued for the most useful logged-in editors when they temporarily lose their head, just to give them time to cool off. Using sock puppets to get around such a block says to me that that user has not yet cooled down enough. I think I would support unblocking the user 24 hours after he ends using sock puppets; until then, the longer block is entirely justifies, in my opinion. Eugène van der Pijll 23:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
    See User:4.249.6.96 for another attempt to evade the block. --Guinnog 00:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    I'm amused; I appear to have "engaged in vandalism, personal attacks, wikistalking and violations of WP:POINT". How rouge I am. Ral315 (talk) 02:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    In response to Aldux, I admit, Tchadienne is a prolific editor at Chad-related articles. Yet there is no excuse for sockpuppeting to evade a block, and we shouldn't encourage it by simply letting the block lapse. I have no issue with Tchadienne, and hope that he/she edits productively after the block. Ral315 (talk) 02:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    The 24-hour block was not punishment. We don't block for punishment, we block to prevent disruption of the project, in this case to stop a user making problematic and disruptive edits for long enough for the other editors on the article(s) in question to come to some kind of agreement as to what to do. That's why block evasion - especially when it includes taunting the blocking admins - is unacceptable, and why sockpuppetry to evade a block is also unacceptable. In this case Tchadienne did both, as well as perhaps a bit of forum-shopping (I'm guessing it's no accident that we are seeing input here from people who are not often seen hereabouts). It's fine to have strong opinions, but edit-warring is not the way to persuade others of the merit of those opinions. Tchadienne has without question been around long enough to know that removing uncited content and starting a debate on Talk is not vandalism and blogs are explicitly not reliable sources. As a wise editor once said, if your edits do not meet with approval, instead of repeating the arguments only louder, bring better arguments. Just zis Guy you know? 10:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Here's Julie Burchill, a Guardian columnist at the time of writing it, accusing the Guardian of new anti-Semitism. And a follow-up about the topic in general a week later. SlimVirgin 11:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Interesting, but, according to Google, devoid of impact. So its coverage would have to be balanced with respect to the more significant stuff in the article, which amounts to… very little, really. —xyzzyn 11:44, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Ummmm, Julie Burchill? Riiiiiight. Any references from respected political journalists? Just zis Guy you know? 14:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    She wrote it in the Guardian. If you think the Guardian is a reliable source, then the Burchill article is a reliable source too. SlimVirgin 18:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    1. Julie Burchill is not considered by most people, even those who like her, as an enyclopedic or reliable source. She says things to shock; arguably her tenure at the Guardian was good for the paper for that reason.
    2. Regardless, Julie Burchill did not state in the reference given that she left because the Guardian was anti-Semitic. Neither did she say that anti-Zionism was the same as anti-Semitism. The crucial bit is "... I don't swallow the modern liberal line that anti-Zionism is entirely different from anti-semitism; the first good, the other bad". She is being ambiguous, maybe deliberately, but this is a bit different from what you claimed above.
    3. Whatever you think Julie Burchill might have meant in her ambiguous swan-song, criticism of Israel definitely does not equate to anti-Semitism. This isn't a POV dispute. --Guinnog 19:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Apparently I am not actually antisemitic, only anti-Zionist (User talk:Tchadienne#ello). So that's alright then; anti-Zionist could hardly be construed as a personal attack, could it? Just zis Guy you know? 15:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    O RLY?xyzzyn 18:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    After running my eye over the quabble at User talk:Tchadienne following its unprotection, I think the page should be reconsidered for protection. Sciurinæ 17:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    Can I ask that you leave it for now, as I am trying to show Tsch a way out and avoid worse consequences? Thanks --Guinnog 18:52, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    That's good-hearted of you and I was actually regretting having made my previous statement because the obnoxious commentary stopped and the discussion was becoming better. Sciurinæ 19:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    Since there’s already a section here for this, can somebody check out ? —xyzzyn 19:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    When I first encountered this user I wondered whether he was someone who used multiple identities. I am glad that he now acknowledges that he has done so. I had an exchange with this user in April, over a controversial renaming of charities accused of ties to terrorism to charities with ties to terrorism. I thought I was civil, but he complained about me on the administrator's noticeboard. A week or so later this user nominated the persona they were then using for administrator. He was asked whether he had any unresolved disputes, and how he resolved disputes. He didn't mention his recent dispute with me. So, I brought it up, and asked some questions. They didn't answer my questions. They accused me of personally attacking them. Their campaign for administratorship failed, but it was fairly close. After his campaign for administratorship failed they filed a reqquest for comment about my behavior. I opted to have an administrator move the request for comment to my user space -- User:Geo Swan/RfC 2006-4-17. -- Geo Swan 04:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    Just some information for all editors here: I've discussed thoroughly of the thing with User:JzG and User:Ral315. I first spoke with Ral: he agreed on unblocking, and asked JzG if he would agree to remove the range-block, which he did today. After JzG had done the first step, I unblocked Tchadienne as that was also Ral's intention, and he wasn't online at the moment.--Aldux 19:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    user:KI and user:Tchadienne

    He is reporting a password problem with his Tchadienne account on the KI user talk page. Feel free to help on that if you can. I'm reporting it here because he seems to want me to protect that page due to selective removal of comments. Please review, maybe he'll use the FSF account next if KI is protected. NoSeptember 18:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    Well, it's good to see that Tchadienne/KI/FSF has cooled off and is back to acting in a civil manner. Yes, that's sarcasm. Aren't I Obscure? 19:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    No more sockpuppets, either. And no b_______. —xyzzyn 20:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    It looks like he is following a repeating pattern: use an account until his tendentious editing brings the unwelcome attention of admins, usually in the form of a series of blocks, then whitewash the talk page to conceal past controversies, assert innocence, and move on to a new account, most likely to do the same all over again. Just zis Guy you know? 20:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    Is someone not getting enough attention? Tchadienne 20:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    Older teens discussing sex with pre-teen?

    It looks as though Alexbuirds, a 16 year-old, may be involved in a discussion about sex and pornography with Bethicalyna (a 16 or 17 year-old) and Lindsay1980, an 11 year-old. Please see the talk pages and contributions of these users. It is entirely possible that I am mistaken (it's a little late in the evening and I have not investigated this in any significant level of detail) or may all be happening off-line. However, I would really appreciate it if someone could investigate and if necessary, put a stop to it. I may be leaping to conclusions, though, and it may be nothing at all or may be completely innocent. --Yamla 04:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    I think you should leave them alone. People like you have been harrassing and stalking me on and off wiki for ever since I have been here for preferring to be gay even though I am very discreet. Please stop.Brohanska 04:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    Sexual discussions with children below the age of consent are a bit different than people harrasing you due to your orientation. At minimum, there is a concern of liability and/or very bad publicity for Misplaced Pages if anything illegal or highly questionable is happening here. JoshuaZ 04:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    I object to this personal attack from Brohanska. I have nothing against gay people and at least two of my friends are gay. As far as I can see, I have not ever had any dealings with you and I cannot see the relevance to the matter at hand which is Wikipedians using Misplaced Pages to discuss sex and pornography with an eleven year-old (though as noted, this may not actually be the case). This appears to have absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. --Yamla 04:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Another user, but presenting yourself as an 11 year old heterosexual female is rather odd, see Cute_1_4_u (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Fred Bauder 04:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    I really dont care -- it seems as if you are attacking me. Gay young poeple should be free to be who god made them and not subject to degrading assaults on wiki and violance off. And for your information i LOVE pornography and talking about it with other young people. Brohanska 04:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Wow, take it to the ultimate extreme. Yamla never said anything about gay or homosexual or anything, and you didn't have to either. Just let this go. --JD 04:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Both of you calm down. The issue here has nothing to do with orientation. The issues are age of consent, liability for Misplaced Pages, and possible bad publicity for Misplaced Pages. JoshuaZ

    Didn't you know that under 18 year old adults can talk about sex to each other as long as they are under 18? So its all legal and therefore should be encouraged for them to explore.Brohanska 05:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    That depends very much on the relevant jurisdictions. The most likely ones to matter would be US federal law and Florida state law . This may be a matter that the foundation lawyers should look into. And regardless, that won't deal with general issues of liability and/or bad publicity if something happens. JoshuaZ 05:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    It's woth noting that Brohanska has only a few edits, and has never self-identified as gay except here and Essjay's talk page, yet claims to having been harrassed both on and off-wiki because of his orientation. Yamla has blocked him as a troll, which I fully support. Thatcher131 (talk) 05:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    Bottom line: Misplaced Pages is not a chat room, and I think we are not comfortable as a community with people talking to pre-teens about sexual matters. Please get an AIM or MSN name and do it in private. Most relevant sexual information can be found on articles, where it is better presented. --mboverload@ 05:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    Didn't I just delete the thingy? With the subtlety of a sledge hammer, here I go. El_C 05:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    I agree with the conclusion of this situation, although not to the belief (near the bottom) that children should not contribute to and especially that they should not read Misplaced Pages. It is sad that Misplaced Pages has to do such things because of the real, but highly exaggerated, danger to children from pedophiles and, perhaps more importantly, the overreaction of the media and society to anything involving children, particularly their sexuality (one of the valid reasons for the steps taken is the effect of publicity rather than any harm being done). -- Kjkolb 07:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Endorse block per above. — Deckiller 06:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Endorse. Cute 1 4 u (talk · contribs)'s page is pretty disturbing too. That user claims to be 11 on Misplaced Pages, 13 on Youtube , and 14 on blackplanet , with "Body type: Very Slim, Curvey, & Sexy 'cause I workout 6 days a week fo' a hour; Best Features: Lips, Face, Hips, booty, legs", and made a contact attempt on Lindsay1980's talk page that could be seen as possibly unsavory depending on Cute 1 4 u's real situation (especially since I think "Raven Symone" turned out to be a sock of Cute 1 4 u). Phr (talk) 07:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I endorse the block of Brohanska since they appear to be a troll. I personally think that wikipedia is not the place to make sexual hook-ups, regardless of age, since this is largely an encyclopedia. Some ammount of community and off-topic networking will surely go on from time-to-time and should be overlooked, including perhaps some things of a sexual nature--I've been guilty of it too (not sexual though) . But some of these users' talk pages seem to be devoted mostly to non-encyclopedic content and that should not be overlooked. Add in the possible legal ramifications for our site due to soliciting of minors and I think we have a good reason to stop this. I'm pretty sure Florida has laws against soliciting minors, isn't that where a lot of those Dateline busts happened recently? There are probably federal laws as well. If it continues, blocking may be in order. The Ungovernable Force 09:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Endorse: Every step that we take, by commission or omission, that leads us closer to Friendster is a step into the abyss. Secondly, every time we allow or encourage chatting is a time away from encyclopedia writing. (Yeah, I like passing jokes and jousting, too.) Thirdly, it is very likely that all sides of this little psychodrama are staged and part of the performance art that is trollery. Fourthly, if this person(s) spent some time with a copy of Penthouse it would at least spare us having to watch. Geogre 13:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    • endorse, per Geogre. Not sure if my non admin opinion is welcome here though. c. tales *talk* 01:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Oppose - People should get more warning for things like this before being blocked. Unless common sense suggests behaviour is unacceptable, we should be reluctant to block. --Improv 04:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I continue to press for expending more resources to protect children from predators (who pretend they are children), as well as combat trolls' "staged psychodramas" which pertain to that area. Review of parties directly —and loosely— associated with this particular case is warranted. El_C 02:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    At the request of another user, I am adding a brief follow-up here. I blocked Brohanska simply because I am absolutely convinced the user was a troll. If people out there do not believe the user was trolling, we should discuss the matter with a view to unblocking the user. It would be profoundly inappropriate to block a user because the user was a homosexual. A thorough reading of this user's fairly short contribution history was sufficient to fully convince me that the user was simply trolling, however. As to the other users, I see no reason to believe anyone else should be blocked at this time (nor any significant evidence that they are trolls). Misplaced Pages does have a right (and an obligation) to prevent the solicitation of underage users where we become aware of it and I feel it is profoundly inappropriate to use Misplaced Pages to discuss BDSM in particular and pornography in general with eleven year-olds. Partly because the user is eleven, partly because that's not what the Misplaced Pages is for. However, any such discussion seemed to be limited to "Aboy bringing pain to a girl, pleasurable!?" Possible cause for concern given the ages involved. However, I believe the comment that El_C posted ("you are not permitted") is plenty sufficient and will stop these users from doing that again. In summary: Brohanska blocked for trolling, other users have been warned. I believe this is entirely sufficient for what was most likely a rather innocent little conversation. --Yamla 03:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    • Comment. This debacle is a perfect example of why I think underage persons should not be allowed to edit Misplaced Pages, at least as a public rule (whether it can be enforced or not). Issues like this one aside, the anonymity and equalizing factors of Misplaced Pages make it extremely annoying when I find myself, a college professor, forced to engage in disagreements over articles with editors who are clearly schoolchildren. Misplaced Pages has enough image problems without being known as an encyclopedia edited by kids. wikipediatrix 21:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Crzrussian

    I have blocked Crzrussian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for one day based on this personal attack. Fred Bauder 04:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    Yet another example of inappropriate blocking for minor/dubious PA. The policy says clearly in extreme cases. Why don't the admins stick to the policies? Ackoz 21:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    • FB! You completely misunderstood me!
      • Yas and I have settled our differences earlier, see s/his talk.
      • I was completely uninvolved with Hamas and had s/his talk on my watchlist due to our previous disagreements over Cat:Anti-arab people
      • The comment was absolutely not a personal attack against s/him, particularly since I don't have any reason to believe s/he is palestinian, rather it was a friendly and and obviously preposterous comment, made with the intention of fostering dialogue on the extent of Jew-Zionist world domination of Misplaced Pages.
      • Finally, even if you were justified in suspending AGF and interpreting my facetious comment as a P.A., surely something like {{NPA}} would have sufficed!
      • - CrazyRussian talk/email 04:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    Note, there appears to be some edit conflicts here which the software is not handling well. Prior to Crzrussian's above comments, the following exchange occured here:

    In context, that doesn't look like a personal attack to me, it looks like an inappropriate sarcastic remark. JoshuaZ 04:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    I won't reblock him. Fred Bauder 04:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Eeek. Quite inappropriate, but I'm sure Crz knows that already. Sarcastic funny comments can easily be interpreted the wrong way. And please, all pints of blood should be appropriately donated to the Red Cross/Red Crescent or your local blood authority -- Samir धर्म 04:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    I'm half-inclined to block crzrussian for unblocking himself. But I suppose there would be no point.... Snottygobble 04:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Only the Red Cross or Red Crescent, not Magen David Adom? Anti-semite! (and yes, before I get blocked, this is meant as a joke). JoshuaZ 04:59, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Red Crystal now, /sigh -- Avi 05:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    For what it's worth, I agree with Crzrussian. I don't think he meant it as a personal attack against me, though how incredibly inappropriate! Yas121 05:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Really no point in blocking Crzrussian (I don't think for a second that his motives were anything but humour), but I'd advise him against unblocking himself in the future. And JoshuaZ, you owe me a pint of blood for that comment. Please send to Canadian Blood Services . -- Samir धर्म 05:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Well, I am O-negative, but I'm too underweight to give blood. JoshuaZ 05:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Agreed. I don't agree with the initial block, but I'm suspicious of self-unblocking too. Isopropyl 05:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Point on unblocking taken. They won't let me donate blood because I've had Hepatitis A as a kid. That's the American rule, I was told. Is there any sense to this, Doc? In Russia everyone's had it, and it's 100% ok to donate! - CrazyRussian talk/email 05:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    No, Hep A is ok in Canada at least. I'll happily take it in a few hours as I'm flying someone in with a massive bleed for the morning. In Soviet Russia, blood donates you? -- Samir धर्म 05:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Stalin's Five Pint Plan? Isopropyl 05:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Not to beat a dead horse, but I would not advise against unblocking oneself, or express suspicion of it, I would advise Crzrussian that it is the clearest grounds for desysopping I can think of, and never acceptable except in the rare event of a technical mistake. Dmcdevit·t 05:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    (Edit conflict with Dmcdevit) Whoa! Advise him against unblocking himself in the future..? Unblocking yourself is blatant misuse of admin tools. CrzRussian, you should have known the policy against self-unblocking, and common sense should have told you that you don't get to use admin powers to give yourself advantages that regular users don't have. That's just not what they're for. I blinked with surprise when I saw your "Needless to say, I have unblocked myself" on Fred Bauder's page, and then your assurance on your talkpage that you have enough credit with the community to act like this. No, you don't. Credit with the community is quite easily lost. Bishonen | talk 05:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC).

    OK, just to make clear - I did not state I had enough credit to unblock myself - I said I have enough credit to stay unblocked having (erroneously)(maliciously) unblocked myself. - CrazyRussian talk/email 05:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Sure. Advise him against unblocking himself in the future (without a question mark). It was certainly not the right thing to do. He's been advised. I'm certain he'll never do it again. Time to move on. -- Samir धर्म 05:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    I think Crazy realizes that now. Perhaps he should reblock himself and then let one of you unblock him, for propriety's sake; and no, I think I'm Hep-A negative. -- Avi 05:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    OK. All your points on self-unblocking are taken. I am open to recall. All those who wish to cast the first stone drink a pint..... nevermind... should apply for recall as is their prerogative. - CrazyRussian talk/email 05:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    People may not know how. How about linking to the recall page? Bishonen | talk 05:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC).
    Sure. Category:Administrators open to recall - CrazyRussian talk/email 05:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    Crazy, no need for exsanguinatory displays of hyperbole. You would have been unblocked, you know not to do it yourself, and we all have our red corpuscles. What more could we want? Maybe some Scots blood pudding? Although it isn'y kosher :) -- Avi 05:26, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


    Unblocking yourself after 5mins...How unfair!! Incidently he (Crzrussian) blocked me few days ago for 24hrs without discussig with me or giving me any kind of proper reason. When I complained in IRC that's exactly what they (Slowking Man) said to him that he a)should have discussed etc and b)not just blocked himself. Anyway I was told there's nothing I can do. I had to stay blocked for 24hrs as the complaints procedure takes even longer than that!...Hmm I guess it's good to be an Admin! Yas121 05:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    As you well enough know, I blocked you per this warning (among others) and the note I left on your talk page. Your unblock request was denied by another sysop. - CrazyRussian talk/email 05:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Excuse me sir! Had I been Palestinian I may not have quite seen it as a *joke*!! any more than he would a similar comment about Jews. Yas121 05:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Joke? Where? I said, "obviously preposterous" and "facetious" comment. - CrazyRussian talk/email 05:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    Well then, I encourage the interested to take a look at my recommendation for Crzrussian's recall, per his suggestion above. Dmcdevit·t 09:19, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    The blocking was not appropriate, as it was a sarcastic comment, not a personal attack. The self-unblocking was also inappropriate; he should have simply raised it on his Talk: page, like everyone else. Crzrussian seems to be repentant though, and I assume he wouldn't do it again, so I don't see the point in taking it further at this point. Jayjg 16:50, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    The rationale for blocking?

    I can't find anything in the blocking rules to justify a block for making one "utterly and completely tasteless comment". I can't support any rational or rules behind this block. We don't block someone for making a stupid personal attack that was meant as a joke. Blocking an admin with a good reputation for what you interpret as a personal attack ? Please explain, because I sure don't understand it. I feel there is something more behind this block other than a stupid comment. --mboverload@ 05:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    Excuse me sir! Had I been Palestinian I may not have quite seen it as a *joke*!! any more than he would a similar comment about Jews. --Yas121 05:59, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Just because you're offended doesn't mean that's a reason to block. I'm serious, someone tell me the reason behind the block. --mboverload@ 09:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Ok, here's the comment: ":::Mmmm... yes... a pint of palestinian blood would be a fine dessert right now. - CrazyRussian talk/email 04:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)" This was put on the talk page of a user who had been making edits which present an Arab point of view. The context was a dialog in response to this outrageous post by Ruy Lopez which attempts to exploit Yas121's presumed discontent with our "Zionist bias". In that context, the remark Crzrussian inserted seemed to me outrageous. Perhaps it was just an attempt to make a joke to break the tension. I don't know what was in his mind. Interestingly Yas121 seemed to react maturely, even to someone who had recently blocked him. I will point out something. I blocked Crzrussian for one day. I did not propose desysopping him. I don't see unblocking yourself as meriting automatic desysopping. An administrator does not always have to be mature, just generally so. However, making a facetious remark in the context he did is outrageous. Fred Bauder 12:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Hmmm... so I did something outrageous, just people can't quite agree what. I'm not terribly sure what the intention was... Best way to put it is, I wanted to escalate the preposterousness to get Yas to drop the Jews control Misplaced Pages line of thinking. I still don't see my comment as outrageous. Stupid, maybe.
    It's pretty clear by now that I will have to resign my mop. Which is a shame, since I think I have made myself very useful with it, and nobody seems to have weighed that yet. Nor did anyone weigh the fact that I've bestowed only a handful of (hopefully proper) blocks, focusing instead of deletions. Everyone should know that I am not bitter, and that my wife will be incredibly grateful if two more dedicated individuals step up for their pint of blood. All you sysops, prepare to handle 100 more deletions per day yourselves! :) Cheers! - CrazyRussian talk/email 15:59, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    I take no position on this but it is not at all clear to me that such an outcome is desireable or foregone. See below. ++Lar: t/c 18:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    I just want to drop in and say that what is occuring here is utterly ridiculous. I think an RfC and a reminder that people are watching you is proper enough for a mistake made. Other admins and editors seem to make ridiculous comments but fly by under the radar. If you have an issue first make an RfC, then take it from there. To suddenly become happy to de-SysOp someone over something else when their other contributions outweight that heavily, is out of line and a waste of our time when there are bigger issues to fry. I think it is fairly obvious that Crz will not abuse the tools and will act more within acceptable lines. Yanksox 16:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    I'm dropping in too (I didn't need the pint of blood for my patient). Other admins have said far more inappropriate things than this. CrzRussian is clearly apologetic for his actions, and I'm certain he's learned from this for the future. An RfC may be appropriate, but instigating a de-sysopping over this? He's an intelligent and highly active administrator. An apology is all that is required in my eyes -- Samir धर्म 16:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Oooh! Advocates! Now copy that to my talk page, boys! - CrazyRussian talk/email 16:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Oppose as well. It is true that too many admins treat adminship like a Golden Ticket or a Get Out of Jail Free card. It is way to early to make that determination here. Everyone stumbles. The admins who deserve to be de-sysopped are the ones who refuse to admit they have done anything wrong and take corrective criticism as persecution. Good admins learn from their stumbles and their peers and become wiser. The issues raised on your talk page deserve serious consideration but it is much too early to fall on your sword. Thatcher131 (talk) 16:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Agree. Jayjg 16:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    BITE also applies to new admins: " Remember, every administrator starts as a newbie admin and every admin has made at least one admin-related mistake! Help them out with their new powers as you would help a newcomer with the rest of Misplaced Pages." Crz has only been an admin since June 8. Let's put this down to teething troubles, as I don't think it's going to be repeated in a hurry. It would be a particular sign of good faith if Crz stated that he would help Yas121 to address his concerns. Tyrenius 16:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Good point. Thatcher131 (talk) 17:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    This looks like a test case, and currently there is no provision for "Advocates" to get in the way of a proposed recall. I don't think the system as currently constituted scales worth a damn, but that's not the point. CrazyRussian has said he'd go through with it as advertised if he gets 6 opposers. Surely there's ought to be a reasonable time-limit on collecting those, however? -- nae'blis 17:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Hm... borrowing loosely from the concept Res judicata, I imagine the six would have to come "from the same set of events,circumstance, or transactions." - CrazyRussian talk/email 17:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I'd like to suggest that we do something different than what we normally do, and just let this lie for a couple of days before rushing headlong into the breach. Does anyone think that everyone going away, doing other things, and coming back to this with a little mental space would be a bad idea? I fear that we often move too fast. - brenneman 17:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    Support not rushing. That said, see also User_talk:Crzrussian#Recall_is_voluntary._Offer_of_clerkship.... my take is that the 6 people certifying a desire for a recall initiates a process (of the recallee's choice... an RfC, a discussion, a re RfA), not an instant desysopping... see also User:Lar/Accountability... that's my take and crzrussian is free to structure this as he sees fit (this suggests that after you add yourself it's a good thing to say exactly what it is you mean by it, it's supposed to be a bit unstructured) ++Lar: t/c 17:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    No need to rush into anything. He's made a mistake as we all do sometimes. He's clearly learned from it. I'd keep a discreet eye and leave it at that. A yellow card, to use a football metaphor. --Guinnog 18:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Hehe... we Russians know a thing or two about that... hehehe - CrazyRussian talk/email 19:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    Here's your yellow then. Don't let it get to be a red. ;) --Guinnog 19:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    File:Yellowcard.png

    Mea Culpa

    Here goes:

    • While I am certain my comment to Yas was not a personal attack, I apologize to s/him or anyone whose feelings may have been hurt by its inappropriateness. I don't believe s/he was offended.
    • I acknowledge once again that the self-unblock was wrong. It resulted from ignorance of that portion of the unblock policy and from the heat of the moment. It's pretty damn clear that I will not do anything of the sort again.
    • I stand by the block to Yas a week ago, and emphatically deny the charge of edit warring. I acknowledge, however, the contructive criticism on how that block was handled.
    • Given all this, I'll be happy to stand down if two more editors believe that my de-mopping will be a net benefit to this project.

    Thanks all. - CrazyRussian talk/email 17:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    Dear all, being just a regular user and not an Admin (in other words powerless) I wasn't going to add anything here. However I really think I should after reading "...I wanted to escalate the preposterousness to get Yas to drop the Jews control Misplaced Pages line of thinking..."

    • Firstly, Crzrussian you are right I was not offended by your comments (as you saw by my response ], hence you don't need to apologize to me, BUT like I said how could you know that? what if I was Palestinian, living through the recent Israeli-Palestinian conflict?!? How would you feel if a Lebanese made similar remarks to you about Jews?
    • Secondly, I have read through Misplaced Pages policy and can't see how you can deny you were not Edit warring?] after Rev my edits about 9 times! Anyway, that's for the Admins to decide not me.
    • Thirdly, can you please point me to where I have stated that "Jews control Misplaced Pages"!?! So I don't understand why you would say that other than to try and give some legitimacy to the reasons behind your comments.
    • Lastly, on a seperate note...I wish this kind of thorough debate occurred over at Hamas where I've been trying frutlessly to discuss merits of a neutral article in an encyclopedia over just a "damming report" and explain that US-Israel views (right or wrong) do not represent the entire planet. But powers that be, don't really seem at all interested, so far not a single word has been allowed to alter, nor the format in the article. All under the famous guise of "Rev POV" followed shortly by the classic 3RR warning (Thanks Jayjg for Rv all my edits and the Ban warning)...Actually I did manage to get someone to finally stick that POV banner on top of the article so Yayy! Anyway that's my 2 bobs worth on the matter.

    --Yas121 19:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    It is, I think, relevant that Crz was sufficiently familiar with you as to be confident that you'd not take his comment as untoward; I imagine that he'd not have made such a comment to someone with whom he was altogether unfamiliar (although I'd have serious concerns vis-à-vis an editor's inter-personal stability and intellectual fitness were he/she to be off-put by such non-disruptive jocularity). I, similarly, have on occasion left comments on Crz's talk page apropos of the Jewish conspiracy that surely underlies all in the world, because I expect that such comments will not be disruptive. Joe 21:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    In support of recall

    (inserted by Lar: The request tally is being kept here: User_talk:Crzrussian#Crzrussian_recall_tally)

    Since it seems clear to me that many of the above commenting on the proposal for Crzrussian's recall haven't read my full reasoning, I'll reproduce it below. It's not just about unblocking himself, though that is about the most egregious single misconduct you can take as an admin, but also in abusing blocking and rollback, and showing poor judgment by edit warring and more. Dmcdevit·t 19:44, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    Okay, I'll bite. You're in Category:Administrators open to recall, so here's my honest assessment. I no longer have full confidence in your judgment as an administrator. Not only did you unblock yourself, a serious no-no, and grounds enough for desysopping in my opinion, as well as making the very ill-considered comment that led to it , you blocked an editor with which you were directly engaged in edit warring, , for what was clearly a content dispute, and which you so much as admit in your threat, saying future attempts to inject this POV will be met with a block, inadequately giving a block warning in an edit summary, of all places, inappropriately using rollback for content reverts and edit warring, and even edit warring in the first place. And I don't even know the bakground of why you were previously blocked for talk page spamming. As far as I'm concerned, your abuse of unblocking and blocking powers, and rollback, and demonstrating poor judgment in your comments and warnings, and certainly in even engaging in edit warring at all, all in just the last few days, are certainly enough for me to call your adminship into question. So, accordingly, I would ask that you resign your adminship until such time as the community can reconfirm its confidence in your judgment. Thank you. Dmcdevit·t 08:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Your opinion has been made known. This is not an RfA. It is inappropriate to campaign for "Recall per nom" votes. - CrazyRussian talk/email 19:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    I'm not. It is being discussed here. I don't think it's a reasonable assumption that everyone read your talk page as well, and there are points brought up there that haven't been mentioned. Dmcdevit·t 20:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    Aren't people meant to get warned for things on first offence, and given the chance to change, before action is launched against them? Tyrenius 20:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    Depends on the offense. In this case, one presumes an admin is aware of the policy against unblocking oneself - its not an "oops" its a deliberate violation of the Rules. For a more extreme example, when one commits a crime one is usally not given a free pass the first time - one is aware it is illegal, one does it anyway - one reaps the consequences. To carry the analogy, an admin breaking this serious a rule is like a police officer breaking the law, which makes the case more serious, not less, because there is no recourse to the "ignorance of the law" defense, which if I recall correctly carries little or no weight anyway. One puppy's opionion. KillerChihuahua 20:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Normally, I'm one of the hanging judges, but I don't think unblocking yourself if you bring the matter up at AN/I or another forum is a particularly grievous offense. It all depends on what you do and why you do it. If you unblock yourself and go your merry way, that's one thing. If you unblock yourself and "turn yourself in" to get more voices in the deliberation, I don't think it is. I think evading is much worse than unblocking yourself. An unblock is an announcement, and it's not as bad as using another account, etc. That's just me, though. Geogre 23:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Irishpunktom/Proposed decision#Dbiv desysopped - as of now 4 support this, and 3 oppose it. Tom Harrison 01:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    Category:Administrators open to recall

    I honor User:Crzrussian for being ready to stand by the undertaking he signed, and I'm rather taken aback by the suggestions being made by other users here that his doing so should be traded for an admin RfC, or require community consensus (!), or that the users making the request are violating WP:BITE and I don't know what else. If I shared the view that it means strictly nothing to add oneself to a page headed "These adminstrators are willing to stand for re-confirmation of adminship if six editors in good standing request it", I'd propose deletion of the "open to recall" page as meaningless. Surely any admin can be RfC'd for misuse of the tools without being listed any particular place, and it goes without saying that any admin will be de-sysopped if there's consensus for it — so what's the point of listing oneself on the recall page? Lar's take on the process as appropriately being complex and multi-layered also seems rather at odds with the process section on the recall page itself: ""Just ask, nicely, on the administrator's talk page, and if five others agree, it's done." Bishonen | talk 08:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC).

    Blocking is done not as a punishment but as a preventative measure. I believe recall should be on the same basis. This is the first time that Crzrussian has been called to task in this way and he has made his mea culpa. If it is now thought that he will repeat the errors, then recall is in order. If it is considered that he will not, then it seems a counter-productive exercise. Admins are not policemen, and wiki has different rules from police forces, one of them being AGF. Everyone is allowed to make a mistake, as long as it is not perpetuated. Furthermore, an admin's mistake(s) should be seen in context of their general record, not in isolation, as it is likely that those admins who do the most work are statistically also more likely to be the ones who make an error.Tyrenius 09:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    Bishie: (and thanks a lot for singing my hair!!! :) ) Most (not all) RfCs relating to admins are hugely contentious, called against the admin's will, and often result in nothing useful at all happening, as the results are blithely disregarded. Sometimes they're pro forma, a prelude to ArbComm...
    The idea here is to be different:If I were to get recalled (because 6 users I felt qualified to do so asked for it), and I chose the RfC route (I refer you again to User:Lar/Accountability, where I list 3 choices I can make) what I'm pledging is; that it won't be called against my will, it won't be contentious if I have anything to say about it (I'll actively work to keep it civil), I'll participate politely and in good faith, and I will honor the outcome instead of disregarding it, without forcing the case to ArbCom by being intransigent. That's a big big difference from how most of them go. If the current category (or my template) wording doesn't make it clear that this is a voluntary process and that the admin in question has some say in what it means, but that it's real, and binding, then correction is in order. I don't think it is process heavy. Now, it appears that Crzrussian has chosen the "resign my powers and stand again for adminship;" (in 2 months time apparently) choice of the three I list, as is his perogative. I'd rather see him do an RfC if this is certified, but it's his choice. Hopefully that helps clarify... ++Lar: t/c 14:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    That is correct. If a motion of no confidence is passed, I will surrender my sysop status, to be regained by means of another RfA. The two months is an optional choice I am making to allow a bygones-be-bygones argument. - CrazyRussian talk/email 15:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    Are there any previous cases in which admins on the open to recall page got recalled? Also there has been quite a lot of discussions regarding the bias problems on Arab-Jew related articles especially on the arbCom case for User:His excellency.--Bonafide.hustla 08:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    No, this is the first. Crzrussian has certified the results. ++Lar: t/c 11:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    This recall has nothing whatsoever to do with Arab-Jew related issues. - CrazyRussian talk/email 12:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Thanks, everyone

    I have surrendered to sysop status after being recalled. I will consider running for RfA again in October. Thanks to all. - CrazyRussian talk/email 12:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Loss of Patience

    WillC has certianly worn out his/her welcome on Job (professional wrestling). He/She is constantly reverting the page or changing the page to include trivial, if acurate, information. There is a large consensus against the material that he/she is trying to add, and was able to weasel out of a WP:3RR banning on a few technicalities.

    Aside from his blatent disregard of the Misplaced Pages Community's opinion on quality, he/she has also taken it a step further, accusing several contributors of being puppets to another user.

    It is my opinion that this child needs a time out, unless there is a way to administer virtual spankings... 'Cuz that'd be even better...

    Sorry, I'm just tired of the whineing, and I know everyone else is too.

    -NickSentowski 19:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    • Have you tried dispute resolution ? --pgk 19:44, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
      • WillC said that he made a request for arbitration. I assumed that facet was exhausted. Now that I check, he was simply using arbitration as a threat, and never actually requested it.- NickSentowski 19:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Or not making not-so-subtle personal attacks against him on administrative noticeboards? --InShaneee 19:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
        • I know this is a blatent personal attack, and I've suffered several from his hands already. Sure, I'm getting carried away, but I'd be willing to put money down that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Hell, even if I have to serve a few days to get him to serve his, it'll be worth it to the community. - NickSentowski 19:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
          • That's not how it works. If you keep making personal attacks like that, you'll be serving a block very much alone. --InShaneee 22:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
              • Would you call this personal attack extreme, InShanee? I don't think so, he doesn't go around calling someone asshole or dumbass all the time right? So, where do you find the criteria for blocking for personal attack met? The answer is nowhere, remember, that according to WP policies, your next step in PA would be walking away, ignoring, trying to persuade the user to restrain from the PA. But certainly not threatening to block him or actually blocking him. We sure do have nice policies and rules here, friendly etc., so please try to stick to them, don't go around threatening editors because you are the demi-god admin. Ackoz 20:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
        • I have tried to reason with these people; we came to a consensus once, and then what was agreed upon by us two was reverted by someone else. I have begged and pleaded for arbitration/compromise, yet all I get from them is reverts without explanation. I too have lost my patience. I expanded the article in question exponentially the last several months, only to have them dismantle it. I post facts. They delete them for fun. WillC 19:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I agree with Nick. I'm tired of WillC as well. He needs to be mature, or just not be on Misplaced Pages. You don't post facts, you post non-notable things. Comedy isn't used much in jobbing, but you just won't understand that. The Ding Dongs and a few examples in the new ECW isn't enough for a comedy relief section or note. Non-notable doesn't belong on, period. It isn't people just "deleting them for fun". RobJ1981 19:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I also don't appreciate what WillC has done, and I don't agree with their inclusion. The only consensus that was reached was that the info was not notable and should not be included. WillC has called us names and has made untrue accusations. I don't think any of us where denying that your example is fact and has happened, it just wasn't notable for the article. It also appears that WillC has been banned several times already for personal attacks and 3RR violations. Maybe a long-term or permablock should be considered. I just hope that something is done. --Renosecond 22:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    I think the above adequately answers Pgk's question of whether you have tried actual dispute resolution as a "no". Consider making a request for comment or request for mediation (formal or informal). Please only post on administrator boards if administrator tools are required. --Sam Blanning 22:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

    I think that WillC should be fired from wikipedia. --Renosecond 23:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    You will need proof that I called you names and made untrue accusations. My contributions page shows good faith additions and edits to that article months before you got there. And the fact that you all have made it to this page one right after the other to condemn me, just as you did on the page in question, shows you are in cahoots. I did not know that they key to success on Misplaced Pages was gangs. And the last comment by Renosecond shows just who here is the immature one. WillC 23:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    I'm just giving my opinion, and it was not the best or worst thing that I said right above. You've been banned like 5 times, that's enough to show that you are a volitile editor. And look at what you put in some of the edit summaries, "check with your fellow conspirator", that's name calling. You really need to just get away from the page and just move on. --Renosecond 23:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    Saying we are in cahoots, is basically a personal attack in my opinion. You don't know us, so don't make assumptions. People being online and posting around the same time means nothing. RobJ1981 00:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    But setting me up by agreeing to a compromise on my talk page, then seeing a third party come and revert my edits so you can complain about it, smells suspicious. WillC 00:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    I'm going to try one more time. There is incivility going on here, on both sides, and it's obviously very tiresome, but at this stage I don't see anything meriting a block. Try solving the problem amongst yourselves through mediation or an RfC, or no-one is going to give a rodent's hindquarters. --Sam Blanning 00:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    We don't really even need an arbritrator on the article, there is concensus. The user in question just refuses to see it. Everyone, go to the Job discussion page, and vote. This should make it black or white for him. - NickSentowski 17:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    Again, vote stacking is not how to resolve a dispute. --InShaneee 18:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    This entire issue is the result of a large group of editors disagreeing with what few editors believe is notable. What's a better solution if a vote is inadequate? We aren't being puppets, this is a fully legetimate vote. - NickSentowski 18:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    THE LADIES DOTH PROTEST TOO MUCH!WillC 20:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    WP:NOT a democracy, and votes are not binding. If there's a number of editors who disagree, try to find a comprimise. --InShaneee 18:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    And if you look directly at the talk page in question, he is the only user that feels his way, and is constantly complaining that everyone that disagrees are cohorts. I, along with others, feel that he is being childish and unreasonable. That's why I brought the discussion here. What is your proposed solution when an arguement is 5-1? I don't feel that 5 users should compromise for one that is particularly stubborn and childish. He also claims that him and I reached a compromise on his talk page... A compromise that I hadn't even read until a few days ago, and didn't agree to. Please, what's next... I just want the arguement closed!- NickSentowski 19:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    From WP:NOT

    Misplaced Pages is not an experiment in democracy

    Misplaced Pages is not an experiment in democracy or any other political system. Its primary method of determining consensus is discussion, not voting. In difficult cases, straw polls may be conducted to help determine consensus, but are to be used with caution and not to be treated as binding votes. For an experiment in democracy, visit WikiDemocracy.

    There was a discussion, and consensus was reached. The simple result was that it doesn't get it's own category. Merging is still on debate. Let us take the vote, and it will resolve all. - NickSentowski 19:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    Voting is not the same thing as consensus. Just because there's more of 'you' then there are of 'them' doesn't mean you automatically get your way, and attempting to enforce such a ruling is simply innapropriate. --InShaneee 19:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    I would be willing to try to informally mediate this if all of the Job (professional wrestling) editors want an outside opinion. If this offer is of interest, please drop a short note on my talk page or the article talk page. I also recommend that all of you take a couple of days off from this particular article. Edit out of each other's way for a few days and things should calm down. I also strongly recommend that this be the end of discussion on this page, take it to the article talk page. Newyorkbrad 01:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC) (non-admin trying to avoid further admin distraction here)
    I see it, but it was not done intentionally....perhaps we edited at the same time and mine saved. WillC 20:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    I want WillC to be permablocked, this user needs to learn a lesson from trying to be a stubborn pest. Putting "THE LADIES DOTH PROTEST TOO MUCH" in this section should be grounds for it, that's just not even close to WP:CIVIL. If something isn't done, then there is a good chance that some frustrated, yet valuable editors (including myself) may just bolt out of here. --Renosecond 20:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    Renosecond needs to read some Shakespeare to fully understand the doth protest line....he and his pals go over the edge saying they are not working together against me, moreso than they actually edit the page in question in good faith. If anyone is obsessing over the article, it is them. And who is to say that they aren't female Wikipedians? Lady is a polite term. If not, I say that the GENTLEMEN doth protest too much. The constant maintaining of innocence betrays their guilt in this senseless revert war they are waging. The compromise to merge has been offered and they refuse. WillC 20:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    • The fact he denies deleting my talk edit, is proof he can't get along with people. His excuse doesn't hold up. I checked the times and it's almost 2 minutes apart, between my edit and his edit/him deleting my edit on the talk page. RobJ1981 21:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    I'm sure that was some sort of trickery on your part. Your vote was not there when I voted. WillC 00:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Not to mention that WillC has been blocked 5 times for previous offenses. And yes I have read most of Shakepeare's works, but that doesn't matter. Putting a comment like that just isn't civil. --Renosecond 21:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    I've been blocked before because I stand up for what is right against people like you. They've been blocked as much if not more. One man in the right is a majority. WillC 00:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    You've been blocked 5 times for misbehaving, don't try to cover it up or put a new spin on it. --Renosecond 02:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    This is absurd. I've temporarily blocked WillC and Renosecond. Hopefully they'll take the time to calm down. --InShaneee 03:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Is it too late to add a new section to WP:NOT: "Misplaced Pages is not a cage match"? Reading the above exchange & Talk:Job (professional wrestling), I can't help not feeling as if I am witnessing one. -- llywrch 21:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC) (who was once a high school, not a professional, wrestler)

    Policy and enforcement thereof

    Kelly Martin (talk · contribs) says here, "If you choose to ignore the policy that I have decided is best for Misplaced Pages, you may find yourself blocked, a state which many Wikipedians find problematic." I understand and appreciate Kelly Martin's intense desire to see the logo dispute resolved, and his/her firm conviction that the decision made is the best for Misplaced Pages, but everything about this statement strikes me as problematic. Regardless of whether his/her reasoning for taking this position is valid, this is an extremely inflammatory way to put it; it also seemingly goes against the cherished collaborative nature of Misplaced Pages, in that one user has made a decision and gathered some unknown number of fellow users with the ability to do so, to help enforce it, rather than participate in the process to generate consensus. Powers 19:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    Let me clarify that I am not attempting to have any sanctions placed on Kelly Martin's behavior. I am looking for outside thoughts on the way this was handled as well as a clearer description of whether this is indeed the way Misplaced Pages wants to handle policy decisions, and why. Powers 19:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    Copyright policy is not up to the users of Misplaced Pages to decide, it is up to the Foundation to decide. Copyright policy is very clear on this issue and it has been very clear for many months: no fair use image galleries. --Cyde Weys 19:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    1. Is Kelly the Foundation?
    2. The Foundation makes copyright law now? I thought that was the domain of Congress, and Misplaced Pages just followed that. If not, someone should make a correction to the United States copyright law article.
    3. If the policy is so clear, why is this conversation happening?
    4. Why does it seem that Kelly finds him/herself above WP:CIVIL? Those comments to Ltpowers sounded very hostile to me.Attic Owl 23:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    As I have said, I'm not trying to change copyright policy. Where is it stated, beyond Kelly Martin's comment on Misplaced Pages talk:Logos, that all fair use galleries are verboten on Misplaced Pages? Powers 19:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    It could be assumed from WP:FUC #8, or, really, from any reading of Misplaced Pages:Fair use that attempts to understand the spirit of our policies and guidelines, as opposed to a reading that is trying to get around them. Jkelly 20:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    A lot of people have cited FUC #8, but it's obvious not everyone interprets it the same way. The distinction between "decorative" and "illustrative" is apparently not as obvious as some people would like to think it is. Powers 20:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    It's "Misplaced Pages, the 💕", not "Misplaced Pages, the non-redistributable gallery of fair use images". Ideally all of our content would be free, but we don't do that because it would require too much of a sacrifice of encyclopedic quality. Not so with fair use galleries. --Cyde Weys 20:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    So it has been asserted. But why galleries? Where was this discussed, and what was the reasoning behind it? I can suss out bits and pieces here and there, but it's like everyone's going out of their way to avoid stating anything resembling an argument, for no apparent reason. I'm sorry if I sound frustrated, but all I've gotten from Cyde, Kelly, and ed g2s is repeated assertions that "these violate our fair use policy" without much attempt at explaining why they feel that way, and without any attempt at acknowledging that other good-faith users might reasonably disagree. Powers 21:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    Addendum: to be fair to ed g2s, he did engage in conversation with me on the topic after his edits to Atlantic Hockey, and I appreciate that. However, while he/she adequately explained his/her position, I still don't feel much of a case was made for why that position was unequivocably the right one, aside from the ever-popular FUC 8 and other general statements that "Fair Use is Bad". I recognize both of those tenets, but still it's not really been explained why fair use galleries necessarily and always fall outside the bounds of acceptability. Powers 21:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    Do you understand that Misplaced Pages fair use policy is not the same as US fair use law? Our fair use policy is narrow because we want to collect free content. Unlikely that a group of fair use images displayed together would meet our fair use exceptions. FloNight 23:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    I do indeed understand that they are not the same. You say it's unlikely that a group of FU images would meet the exceptions, but fail to explain why, or why it's so universally true so as to impose a block for reverting their removal. Powers 01:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Galleries were determined to be verboten a long time back, because in 99% of all situations they were simply collections of images which were not incorporated into the text. Isolated images have very little "fair use" claim — they are not being use analytically or critically, and they are not terribly transformative in the way that images-plus-encyclopedia often are. In most case they serve no substantial point other than decoration. It is easier in a case like this to just make them verboten. That being said, I've seen maybe one instance in which the gallery was not an inappropriate way to present a sequence of images claimed under "fair use", and was essentially just being used as an organizing structure in a way which was itself critical/analytical (putting them in a sequence). But even then there were others ways to achieve the same effect. I hope that explains the reasoning a little better.
    Now in the case of Atlantic Hockey, I think the "gallery" version is clearly not a good use of "fair use"—the images float by themselves disconnected from anything else. In the "table" version, I could see an argument that it makes it easier to identify teams if you are used to just seeing them on TV, or something like that, but even then it strikes me as pretty non-essential, something one would add just to make it look nice, rather than something the article needs in order to function. --Fastfission 23:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    As an observation, if you want to assemble a gallery of images, you will probably find it easier to do over on commons than on en.wikipedia.org. While they have different rules for what they will accept, creating a gallery of "free use" images here won't help anyone in the long run. -- llywrch 00:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Thanks, that's the first cogent explanation I've seen. So the argument, then, is that galleries are just too generic (perhaps) to enable the constitutent images to qualify as fair use? I can buy that, in most cases -- but I hardly think it's necessarily true, as Kelly Martin and others have implied. However, I'm not wedded to the gallery format -- it's just that when I tried incorporating them into the table as seen in Atlantic Hockey, ed g2s still reverted them, even though they weren't in a gallery, but instead were part of the identification table. The logo is as much a part of the team identity as the mascot is, IMO -- but certain factions seem to think my opinion on that matter doesn't count. Powers 01:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    The ghost of RJII/Hogeye/TheIndividualist/IndividualistAnarchist/Lingeron/etc/etc returns to haunt anarchism

    User:That'sHot came out of nowhere today and immediately began picking up the tattered banner of fallen soldiers RJII/Hogeye with edits like this, this, this, and this. I'm aware of WP:AGF, WP:BOLD, WP:BITE and related policies, so I apologize if I'm jumping to conclusions. I just think that this is a very obvious case. I had this to say on his talk page:

    Welcome to Misplaced Pages! We're delighted that you've magically stumbled upon our web site, the 💕 that anyone can edit. It's marvelous that you already know so much about editing Misplaced Pages, from wiki syntax to policies and guidelines. It's very rare that new users learn so much on the same day, so congrats! Also, I'm glad to see that you're being bold! All of the edits that you're making on anarchism resemble the same kinds of edits made by recently-banned users; it's a relief that their merit is not tarred by the reputation for bad faith of their originators. I'm now confident about the integrity of those edits. It's not every day that new users crop up out of nowhere to continue carrying the torch (well, I guess that does happen every day, but, oh well), so I'm very excited about your enthusiasm, and very happy that you decided to dive in. Please don't hesitate to ask anybody if you have any questions. Good luck, and happy editing! :-) --AaronS 19:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    His response?

    That's hot. That'sHot 19:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    I got a laugh from that one. :-D This just seems like a basic throwaway account, complete with a picture of Paris Hilton. --AaronS 20:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    Well, if nothing else, the image on the User page is a copyvio, so I've removed it. User:Zoe|(talk) 20:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    I think we should make AaronS's welcome message a tag to put on these familiar faces with new names. Perhaps we could call it Template:Reincarnation. Geogre 02:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I might be using that one a lot unfortunately, along with Aaron here. The Ungovernable Force 04:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    created. Syntax is {{subst:reincarnation|diff|article}}.

    JzG

    This user will not quit. He has vandalized my talkpage numerous times over the past three days

    • Today he deleted comments of other users with no explanation, protecting my talkpage without any justification, deleting my response to his harassment on my talkpage with the bizarre edit summary "Since you are saying goodbye, let's assume you mean it, eh?", and then leaving this threatening message to intimidate me into leaving.

    Before that he vandalized my talkpage. Then when I reverted another user assumed he was right and reverted to JzG's version, but realized he was wrong and apologized. I was cordially and said it was alright. JzG has left numerous uncivil comments on my talkpage that can be viewed if one goes through the history of the page. He has also repeatedly been warned. I want him blocked immediately. Tchadienne 22:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    That's not vandalism, and you're obviously not giving us the full story. --mboverload@ 22:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    User appears to be removing warnings concerning his/her editing from his/her talk page. Isopropyl 22:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    That obviously is vandalism. Tchadienne 22:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    The protection of your talk page appears to be in part due to your removing of talk page warnings - however, by your contributions I see that you are going on a campaign to get JzG punished in some way, but all that will do is get you blocked again for possible disruption (it was with his agreement that you were unblocked, after all). Cowman109 23:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    Behave civil and you won't have to be blocked and your Talk page(s) protected. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    Rule #1 of AN/I Tell us the complete story, including your failings, and admit it. Make it concise and easy to read. Present your facts cleanly with diffs and explain the context.
    You went about this all wrong, and even if your complaint was valid it may not have been acted on due to your behaviour. --mboverload@ 00:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I completely endorse JzG's actions on this matter. Far from vandalizing your talk page, I believe he was acting in the best possible manner under provocation, and I commend his patience when dealing with this case. Finally, removing personal attacks, even when they are destined to an undetermined number of users hardly qualifies as "vandalism" imho. I also agree with Mboverload's analysis regarding the one-sided presentation of the case here. Phaedriel The Wiki Soundtrack! - 00:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I feel it perhaps worth noting I've just removed "ignore... the anti-Semitic vandal JzG" from one of the talkpages of an article Tchadienne has been disputing. Shimgray | talk | 18:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Seems like a rant more than anything. It's good to present both sides of the story next time. --Pilotguy 00:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Seborga hoax

    An anon with varying IP addresses beginning with 87 is running a hoax that Nate Richert has taken over from Giorgio I, Prince of Seborga. Examples are here and here. Nothing about this here and the official site of Seborga confirms that Giorgio 1 is still in power here. Can the two pages be semi-protected, please, because this sort of hoax, if word gets about, brings WP into disrepute? BlueValour 23:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

    Unprotect my talkpage

    JzG has protected my talkpage, deleted comments by other users, altered comments I have made, and has incorrectly told a user that I am no longer allowed to vote on WP:RFA. I am not interested in the lies of Zoe and others, who expressed their nonsense pov above. Unprotect my talkpage, block JzG and call it a day. 'nuff said. Tchadienne 00:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Stop trolling for attention with your comments which we both know no one will take seriously. KEEP IT IN THE SAME SECTION THX --mboverload@ 00:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    User:Mantion in Talk:Joseph McCarthy

    Mantion (talk · contribs · count), which appears to be a single-purpose account, may be violating WP:AGF and WP:NPA in Talk:Joseph McCarthy. -- Donald Albury 00:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    User talk:71.74.209.82

    Disruptive editor repeatedly removing sourced material from Illegal immigration to the United States, or adding commentary, personal opinions, etc. Suspected sockpuppet using several IP addresses. As I am editing this article I am not blocking him/her for disruption. I would appreciate if another admin takes a look. ≈ jossi ≈ t@ 01:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Other IPs involved:
    Possible sockpuppet :

    ≈ jossi ≈ t@ 02:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    It would also be worthwhile to look at the Anchor baby page, and its discussion page. Same individual using multiple accounts, same pattern. First he claims that something is not sourced; then when a source is given, he claims not to be able to use the source because of its format; once its reformatted he claims its just the opinion of some individual (who happens to be a Congressman on a .gov site). He can’t win the argument, but he certainly will not allow himself to loose either. Brimba 02:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Jossi has harassed me about not having a user account until I got one. He has already posted an RfC calling me disruptive and been immediately turned down. Now he is threatening me with blocking my account because Ive deleted content which is off topic (he claims that deletion of content is vandalism when, in fact, it is only vandalism when done in an attempt to compromise the integrity of the encyclopedia - that was pointed out to him and he is still threatening to block me). I see his actions as an ongoing abuse of his admin powers and am seeking a resolution. I admit that I have logged on anon as well as in this user account, but I got my user account today and have sometimes forgotten to log on. Let me make that clear..I edited anonymously for some time before getting a user account (it was during this time that Jossi was harassing me about it). I got a user account today and have, when making edits since then, sometimes forgotten to log in. However, while admins have had plenty of opportunity to show evidence of me engaging in Sockpuppet abuse (which isn't just editing from different IPs, but detailed abuse as in the Sockpuppet page), they have failed to do so. Further, I have made no secret of being the same person and whenever I felt confusion might exist or when I was asked, I clarified. On one occassion, I posted in Illegal immigration in the United States to clarify that a post came from me when I had forgotten to log on and that explanation was immediately deleted by Jossi (and has not been undeleted). Seeing my explanation immediately deleted, I assumed that the best thing to do when it happens is just let it go.Psychohistorian 02
    30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Psychohistorian confirmed that he is the same person as 1.74.209.82 Diff ≈ jossi ≈ t@ 02:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Please note that, contrary to what Psychohistorian asserts, I have not refactored anything from talk:Illegal immigration to the United States. ≈ jossi ≈ t@ 02:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Please note, contrary to Jossi's last comment, that comment about having failed to log in was made by me at 13:28 8 August 2006 and was deleted by Jossi at 13:44 8 August 2006 and remains, at least at this time, in the talk page history.Psychohistorian 03:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Further, I have made no secret of being the same person and whenever I felt confusion might exist or when I was asked, I clarified.

    From a discussion on User talk:MER-C concerning this individual

    Section: Recent edits to 198.97.67.59 I don’t know how easy this is to follow, but I am trying bring for the relevant parts of the discussion:

    WHOIS tells me that the two distinct IPs above are unrelated - one from Ohio and one from Virginia. I'll get rid of the notices MER-C 02:40, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

    Thank you and I am strongly considering getting an account. Its just that I didn't feel like submitting to someone threatening or pushing me into it and I didn't really, and still don't, see a reason for it71.74.209.82 03:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

    At no time has he/she denied ownership of the other offending addresses. But appeared happy to allow you to reach that conclusion on your own, and failed to correct the misunderstanding. - from Brimba

    Ahh, looks like the IPs weren't as unrelated as I thought. On further inspection (using the City link at the bottom of an IP's talk page) are about 60km away from each other. The Virginia IP was registered to an Time Warner subsidary in Virginia. (compare and ). Therefore it is possible that they are the same person and given the evidence above it is likely. I think the correct conclusion to be reached is:


    One of the employees at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base also edits Misplaced Pages at home with an IP of 71.74.209.82.

    Once it was clear they where the same person:

    Sorry to confuse you on that. I do post from the different IPs. I have not tried to mislead anyone on that fact. However, the Wright-Patterson IPs are shared by many other users as well.

    Thanks Brimba 03:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Brimba claims that I was happy to have people be confused. Though, as Ive pointed out, I took it on my own initiative to clarify the issue whenever I thought the confusion existed (such as the edit I mentioned above to the talk page of Illegal immigration in the United States). I have to ask, why would I take it on my own initiative to clarify any confusion if I was happy to have people be confused?Psychohistorian 03:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    You have been warned at least thirteen times for disruption through all your IP addresses, so this is not about confusing others, but about interfering with the editing process. ≈ jossi ≈ t@ 03:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    You have claimed that I was disruptive because I deleted or edited an article in accordance with policy - an article, incidentally, which you have exhibited a stake in which is counter to my own opinions. You made an RfC on it and was immediately turned down. You are attempting to use your admin status in this regard as a weapon with which you can align the content of the article with your politics.Psychohistorian 03:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    The RfC is still ongoing. I posted it yesterday and editors have yet to comment. As for the deletion of properly sourced material without discussion, just because it opposes your POV, and as these were done using four or five different IP address, I would argue that thess had the imprimatur of disruption, upon which I warned these anon users (that now we know are all one person). ≈ jossi ≈ t@ 05:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I don't see where Jossi has used, much less abused, his admin tools in this matter. A content RfC is never inappropriate, though sadly they are often ignored. -Will Beback 05:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    A content RfC is never inappropriate, agreed. An admin threatening an editor with having their account blocked for deleting content (which does not violate the 3RR) is, however. Let's be clear here, there are three issues. 1.) Harassment of anon editors (all that has been addressed was whether I was engaging in sockpuppetry, the harassment has not been addressed yet, though the evidence is in the Illegal immigration in the United States article), 2.) Whether or not I've been disruptive (and there is no evidence of that which has been brought forth), 3.) Threatening to block me because I deleted content in accordance with policy. All three accusations, especially when taken together, make it clear that Jossi is attempting to use his admin powers to control content in that article. Further, Will Breback, Brimba, and Jossi have all participated in editing that article and all share the same politics on the issue. MER-C is the only admin who has posted on this issue who does not have an emotional connection to the content of the article. I am looking for third parties who do not have an attachment to the content of the article to examine this issue.Psychohistorian 11:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    And you say that you do not have an "emotional connection" to this article? You edited under several IPs, added your opinions to several articles in violation of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR, and deleted material that was very well referenced just because it opposed your viewpoint. Many editors warned the different IPs you used about these deletions and behavior, which you ignored. As for my actions, these are there for the community to see: I have welcomed you, explained to you how to merge articles, how to add references, etc. as well as explaining to you the futility of editwarring. I have twice in the past 24 hours extended an invitation to edit this article amicably, that you rejected on the basis of your assessment of my integrity as an editor. I invite you for the third time to collaborate in this article amicably, to avoid making comments about other editors motives while ignoring yours, to desist from deleting properly sourced material from articles, and avoid inserting your opinions in the text of articles. ≈ jossi ≈ t@ 15:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I welcome any third party not already attached to the article to examine my behavior in this matter. While we disagree regarding WP:NPOV and WP:NOR (I feel that you've violated those policies and you feel that I have), I have never threatened to lock another editor out of an article because I didn't agree with their politics. While we might disagree on what is not relevant material (sourced or not), I have never threatened to lock another editor out of an article because I didn't agree with his politics. Of course I have an emotional attachment to the article, but, again, I have never threatened to lock another editor out of an article because I didn't agree with their politics. You have done so. Therefore, it is incumbent upon you to prove that such a block is warranted and, so far, you haven't done that. I welcome your attempt to do so using hard data, not baseless accusations. As for using different IPs, what this boils down to is whether or not editing anonymously is allowed by policy (it is) and whether or not third party administrators feel that I have done so to engage in sockpuppetry (the only one who has weighed in on the issue states that he doesn't believe I have). I don't believe you would have asked for a peaceful resolution on this matter if I didn't tell you that I was going to raise the issue. I believe you would have continued with your abuse if I hadn't told you that I was going to make an official complaint. Finally, I am convinced that you are looking to resolve it under the radar now so that you can continue with your abuse later.Psychohistorian 16:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    If you are so convinced about my future actions, then there is no much to discuss, is there? For the record, the reason for my invitations to you to edit amicably, these were not done because of your complaint (which by the way I invited you to make when you first accused me of harassment) but because I believe that edit warring can be avoided when editors collaborate and respect each other event after a heated dispute. Also for the record, note that each and every one of my additions to the article were backed up by detailed references from scholarly journals, books and articles, and in complete adherence with Misplaced Pages content policies. So here is my extended hand again: I invite you to collaborate on this and other articles amicably within the boundaries of WP content policies and assuming good faith. ≈ jossi ≈ t@ 19:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Do you believe that, in harassing me about being an anon editor and threatening to block me for deleting content in accordance with policy, that you did anything wrong? I don't believe you do. If you don't, then there is nothing disinclining you from doing it again in the future. You have the power to do it again. So, I can't believe that you won't do it again. I could easily agree to a truce if you did believe your actions were wrong. And creating content, updating content, and deleting content in accordance with policy is what editing is about. It is inevitable that different editors have different understandings of policy so it is inevitable that wat one editor does, another will view as against policy. What should not be part of the editing process is an admin making threats against a user to use his admin rights so that that admin can have an article reflect his politics. My complaint is your misuse of your position as an administrator. My concern and why I cannot accept a truce at this time is that you don't see anything wrong with that misuse.Psychohistorian 20:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Sorry, but no. On the context of your actions what I did was not "misuse" of admin powers. I did not apply a block, ony warned your multiple anon IPs about disruptive edits (joining the voices of many other admins and editors that warned you of the same). When I saw the need for a block, I placed a request in this page. FYI, I intend to continue editing this article but I refuse to edit war with you. Deletions of sourced material, addition of personal opinions, and otherwise dirsuptive behavior on your part that may warrant a blocking action will be reported here at WP:ANI for other admins to act upon. ≈ jossi ≈ t@ 20:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    You can continue to talk about me being disruptive, but the fact is that when the one and only admin who was not working on the article examined my actions, he ruled against you. For your part, you've failed, even here, to provide -evidence- of me being disruptive, you've only given baseless accusations. I sincerely hope that you do report my "disruptive" behavior here, at least that will force you to provide such evidence to third parties.Psychohistorian 20:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    No admin "ruled against" me. A request that I placed on WP:RFPP intended to curtail what I considered disruptive anon edits, was rejected on the basis of "not enough activity to warrant semi-protection". On the other hand, eleven editors and admins warned you about disruption as can be seen in the talk pages of the IPs that you edited under: :71.74.209.82 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), 198.97.67.58 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and 198.97.67.57 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). ≈ jossi ≈ t@ 22:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    There are nine relevant posts in these accounts. Many of them are from the same admins who all have an emotional attachment to the article. So, how did 11 admins create nine posts and many of them have more than one post? Is this a "breads and fishes" thing? Of those nine posts, three of them are part of the anon editing harassment. Those are Brimba's post to 71.74.209.82 at 06:57 7 August 2006, Will Breback's post to 198.97.67.58 at 16:22 August 2006, and Will Breback's post at 16:23 4 August 2006 to the same account. Of those nine posts, three of them I'll fess up to. They were a result of my not knowing certain policies and, once I was aware of them, what I was doing that lead to them stopped. Those are Will Breback's 21:00 23 July 2006 post to 71.74.209.82 and both of the posts from Abstract Idiot to 198.97.67.58 (both of these were me deleting improperly placed claims of sockpuppetry - they had no evidence with them - Mer-C explaind the proper way to delete these tags and I stopped doing it). Of the remaining three posts, two were from Jossi and were part of the issue being discussed here. One was from Bachrach44 20:28 2 August 2006 to 71.74.209.82 and about him deleting a direct quote I had added to the Illegal immigration in the United States article on the grounds that that direct quote violated POV (how can a sourced direct qoote violate POV??).Psychohistorian 00:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    Yes, you are right... all these warning messages by User:Wisden17, User:Tapir Terrific, User:Tawkerbot2, User:Will Beback, User:Dark Tichondrias, User:Brimba, User:Bachrach44, and myself and ohers were all mistaken. You are 100% right, you did not disrupt Misplaced Pages, you did not add your own comments to articles and you did not delete sourced material from articles that you did not like. We are all a bunch of idiots, that have nothing else to do than harass a newbie. In addition we are all emotionally attached to this article and do nothing but push our pro-immigration POV, while you only want to enhance Misplaced Pages and impress upon all of us the principles of WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:NOT that you have studied in detail over the short life of your editing experience in this project. We shall now all emulate your impeccable editing credentials and allow you to edit all these articles that you are so emotionally detached from, un-hinibited and without being harassed by abusive sysops. ≈ jossi ≈ t@ 01:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC). ≈ jossi ≈ t@ 01:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    First off, some of those IPs you mentioned are shared by more than one user - a fact which you are well aware of (and the user accounts are clearly tagged as such). I posted the relevant posts. Second, the other posts you mentioned were not warnings (for example, Dark T's post is, "Your argument with another anonymous IP user on the Talk:White (people) is very hard to follow if you do not sign your posts with an account name. It's harder to distinguish two IP numbers than it is to distinguish two user names. To sign your posts after you create an account simply type in --Psychohistorian 02:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC) two bars and four tildes. Misplaced Pages will automatically sign your post with the user name you created" - not a warning). Your misrepresentation of these facts is an indication that you're not done playing games.Psychohistorian 01:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    As stated in Talk:Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States I am taking a break from actively editing that article, because it has become too toxic for my liking. I will continue monitoring the article in the event that material that is properly sourced is deleted. Happy editing. ≈ jossi ≈ t@ 02:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    Firstly, I was not confused by Psychohistorian's actions, I just simply overlooked something and jumped to the wrong conclusion. The discussion on my talk page wasn't about the user's edits but the allegations of sockpuppetry, which have been resolved for all I can see. Editing at work and at home under different IPs is fine, as long as it stays clear of WP:SOCK. I'm going to step away from this issue because it is now a content dispute on a topic that I know little about because I live on the other side of the world. MER-C 09:52, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    You may want to check this out

    http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Sesame_Street&action=history

    Looks like there's trouble a brewin'.JonwithGlasses 02:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Looks like fairly harmless joking. Two socks added, then removed, a blank line, with edit summaries about the tripling of the elephant population. No actual damage on the article, and looks like a one-timer. Fan-1967 03:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Duh duh duuuhhhhhh....! Thewolfstar.

    User:KingWen popped up around today and picked up Thewolfstar/Lingeron's torch. Edits and style are nearly identical. The user talk page edits are almost exactly the same style: see here. What articles does this user immediately begin editing? Why, Democratic Party (United States), attempting to remove the historical basis of the party in Jeffersonian government; Anarchism in the United States, giving Jefferson that good 'ol anarchist pedigree (with almost exactly the same edit summary); Anarchism, making the same edits as Thewolfstar/Lingeron (sorry, WP:AGF; she magically found them from weeks ago and thought that they were so great that they should be reinserted); and so on. This one seems like a no-brainer, but I would appreciate it if someone else took a look at it. --AaronS 03:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Oh, and wha....? --AaronS 03:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Ah, she might actually be juggling two accounts. See User:OceanDepths and edits like these where they piggyback. --AaronS 03:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I've strongly suspected KingWen of being Thewolfstar since she first showed up on User_talk:WillMak050389. (OceanDepths I have no opinion on right now). It's either her or another environmentalist religious Jeffersonian anarchist with a strong penchant for user talk chit-chat and fiddling with various user talk subpages. Sigh. Now, do we block now or wait to argue with the trolls first? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Block now, if its so obvious that they're thewolfstar socks. WP:IAR. c. tales *talk* 04:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Block now. And Abunchofgrapes, if you are referring to me, I'm sorry. — Deckiller 04:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I wasn't, I promise. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 15:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I ran into them on Talk:Capitalism. I thought I smelled something fishy. The Ungovernable Force 04:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I've blocked KingWen. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 15:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Odd editor

    I had listed this editor up in the whole YourCousin nonsense, but I think it may require a better focus.

    This editors first action was to vandalize an article that is on my watch list, hiding it under "Spelling fixes" and then did an actual spelling fix edit, which he may have screwed up in his first edit. The timing of his arrival was way too close to the whole attack put on articles that I watch by YourCousin/Repmart/his socks. I brought this up in one of the IRC channels, but only one person replied, and it would probably be better if it was given much clearer notice. Ryūlóng 03:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Blocked user Lior back with new IP addresses and on Commons as well?

    While editing Targeting of civilian areas in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, which currently is unprotected, while the main article 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict is semi-protected, I noticed a strange text inserted by 88.152.85.85 on 6 August and illustrated by a very odd pie chart inserted by 88.154.4.171 on 8 August from Commons. The creator of the pie chart is a new Commons user who calls himself/herself Lior, which is surprisingly similar to Lior, who has been blocked since 17 July on English Misplaced Pages. As 88.152.85.85 in addition made his/her debut on 4 August by inserting a copyvio picture from Commons that was created by the same Lior, and as the logs of both anon users show that they share Lior's rather unusual interest in Portal:Current events as well as anything to do with Israeli questions, I have a strong suspicion that both IP addresses and Commons Lior is the same old Lior who has re-emerged with a set of new IP addresses. Best regards Thomas Blomberg 03:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Blocked user User:PennyGWoods is back

    See above for past transgressions. Just in the last hour she has hit us here and here. If someone can come up with a solution, that'd be wonderful. for now I've protected the talk page on Halle Berry but I can't do that for long. --Woohookitty 04:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    And this. 3 different IPs (83.15.104.242, 125.244.54.130 and 200.208.207.134). IIRC they are all in singapore but nothing else links the IPs. --Woohookitty 04:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Al 3 were open proxies. She's stopped for now. --Woohookitty 06:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Afro textured hair

    The user Anonymous X (talk · contribs) originally created this article, which wasn't done in the proper Misplaced Pages style, including uses of nonfree images fro mthe web, which, after being deleted, were replaced by unsightly in-article links to those pictures. I therefore cleaned the article up myself, only to have this user (often through an IP address, 24.141.94.61 (talk · contribs), constantly revert from my cleaned up version to, well, this. The user seems to vehemiently prefer his own version, bashing me for having cleaned up "their" article (see talk). I suppose I'm just requesting that several moderators add this article to their watchlists, and prevent the user from continuous reverts to a poorer version. The user themself should also get a warning of some kind, and go on fro mthere if this continues. --FuriousFreddy 04:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Block the clown for disruption. What is this, daycare? — Philwelch t 04:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I have forwarded the article to Afro since it was a repeat of already present information that's already in afro and anything extra should be added there instead of a duplicate article. Thygard - Talk - Contribs - Email ---- 05:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Thanks Thygard. I was tired of cleaning up that article.--Firsfron of Ronchester 05:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I'm not sure that redirecting the article was correct. A hairstyle is a far different topic than an type of hair, and there is very little duplicated information between the two. (although, I don't think that "Afro textured hair" is a proper term in and of itself, and the artciel should probably be moved someplace else. But not redirected.). --FuriousFreddy 08:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    User:Alberto Fujimori using name of real person

    User is using the real name of a Peruvian political figure, see Alberto Fujimori. According to established policy: a username should not be used to defame other people, companies or groups, regardless of whether they edit Misplaced Pages. The user is also an obvious vandal, he had tried to move Peruvian national election, 2006 to Delete:Peruvian national election, 2006 with the stated rationale in the edit summary that "I was unfairly excluded". --Jersey Devil 04:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    My apologies, the user already seems to be "indefinately blocked" for the moving incident.--Jersey Devil 04:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Banzai! (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

    This user has previously been blocked for personally attacking me and as part of an agreement to be unblocked by the blocking adminstrator agreed to not personally attack me but continues to do so, "equal opportunity dick". I removed his personal attack commentary and that of editor Karatenerd (talk · contribs) from my talk page but now Banzai! (talk · contribs) has the following page User:Banzai!/The_Netscott_Files (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) to keep the personally attacking (and related ) commentary alive as well as provide links towards stalking ends (please check the history of the page). Would an admin kindly prevent this user from continuing to act in bad faith and delete this stalking page? Thanks. (Netscott) 07:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Don't be a dick” is official policy, not a personal attack. I’m only keeping an eye on your Special:Contributions until you stop trying to get me blocked. Please stop wasting everybody’s time, here and elsewhere, with your spurious accusations of personal attacks, stalking, and harassment.  —Banzai! (talk) @ 06:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I desire no involvement in this, but I feel it's worth noting that WP:DICK is an essay, not official policy. --Emufarmers 06:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Let's see in this edit we have this edit summary by Banzai! (talk · contribs), "OK, I got rid of those external links (except for the Google search on your username). Happy?)". Seriously I'd appreciate a hand to remove this prime example of harassment on the part of this editor. Thanks. (Netscott) 07:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I find it hilarious you keep linking to a page describing your bad-faith edits. Other than that, no comment.  —Banzai! (talk) @ 07:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Update: User:MONGO says he speedy deleted that subpage due to the presence of Google search results for "Netscott" in the page history, even though I’d removed them from the current version. Because that seems to have been Netscott’s primary issue with the page as well, I’ll be sure to omit those links in future revisions. I know you were all dying to hear this update.  —Banzai! (talk) @ 08:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Page is gone...I have a zero tolerance policy of WP:STALK. If Banzai must create a page which "monitors" Netscott, make sure it includes no links to personally indentifing information that is off-wiki and that it also doesn't direct users to off-wiki attack pages.--MONGO 08:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    SlimVirgin and a serious abuse of authority

    I am an active Wikipedian in good standing. Consistent with the letter and spirit of WP:SOCK, this account was created today for the sole purpose of making the present complaint and obviously has not, nor will it ever, interface with my main account. Sockpuppet? Yes. Abusive? No.

    That I feel it is necessary to do this anonymously at all is indicative of what I see as the root of this very complaint: an administrator who has come to regard herself as exempt from the policies that maintain fairness and order here, and who has lately demonstrated a certain eagerness to exercise her power in unethical ways.

    Basics

    SlimVirgin appears to have abused her position for the benefit of one editor and the detriment of another, violating her ethical responsibilities to this community in the process.

    I've learned that many editors know about this situation generally, since it was first described some weeks ago on another website. Instead of linking to that site, I'll summarize what I've gleaned from forum banter and my own email exchange with the the editor involved, inviting those more familiar with the specifics to follow up and fill in the gaps.

    Details

    Recently IPFrehley claimed he had evidence of abusive sockpuppetry on the part of Mantanmoreland.

    At one point he uploaded a graphic of some sort which he intended to use as a “visual aid” when making his “case” (he clearly had no idea what the hell he was doing).

    After uploading the image but before he could do whatever he was going to do next, IPFrehley was blocked by SlimVirgin and the image deleted (but not until after she apparently let Mantanmoreland have a copy, since he does refer to it on some thread I can't find now).

    Based on comments IPFrehley made in another setting, it seems that prior to this, he reached out to a few admins, explaining what he wanted to do and asking for advice. He said the only ones he specifically remembers were Morven and Humus sapiens but thinks there were three or four total requests made. None of them replied to his email, though at least one forwarded it to either SlimVirgin or Mantanmoreland, which is how she managed to intercept and block IPFrehley so quickly when he finally decided to do it by himself (she must have been waiting for it to happen).

    When it did, SlimVirgin took advantage of IPFrehley's obvious lack of familiarity with WP:SOCK, because she told him to send his evidence to her via email so she could judge it privately and offline.

    Here's where it gets interesting

    IPFrehley says he didn't believe SlimVirgin was really interested in the evidence he was sending, so he did something a little diabolical: in the document he emailed SlimVirgin, he hid something that would alert him when it was opened (I don't get that tech stuff so don't ask me more about it), to know if it even got looked at. He says that yes it was opened, not by SlimVirgin but by Mantanmoreland -- 'the same person his evidence accused!!!!! (Here's where he explains how he knew that).

    Looking over their contribution histories it's easy to see that Mantanmoreland and SlimVirgin often work in tandem. But that's no excuse for secretly passing him information sent to her in confidence and with the promise that it would be reviewed and judged appropriately.

    IPFrehley says he later emailed SlimVirgin asking if there was another explanation (other than what seemed obvious...that she was sending the information to Mantanmoreland) but she refused to answer, except for apparently announcing somewhere that IPFrehley was sending her threats.

    I've yet to verify that, but is sounds pretty typical of a pattern that's emerged over time.

    I suspect SlimVirgin will argue that because IPFrehley has since been indef banned and even spawned some socks of his own since this episode that his claims should be disregarded.

    I would respond by noting that when all this happened, IPFrehley had yet to be banned. Also, IPFrehley openly admits to creating multiple socks specifically attempting to bring this situation to the community, which he apparently tried to do more than once though record of it is gone because he was summary banned and reverted and all diffs permanently deleted from the history.

    In my time as a wikipedian, I've grown to respect SlimVirgin's dedication but feel increasing concern over her fading sense of impartiality and even propriety. If what IPFrehley says is true, it represents a grave deception, violation of trust, abuse of power, and act of inexcusable cronyism on the part of SlimVirgin. I'm requesting that her administrative powers be suspended while evidence related to this and other alleged abuses be presented and reviewed by a panel other than the Arbitration Committee, which I do not feel can be impartial in this case. --SecondMostLikely 06:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Responses

    A sockpuppet created merely to bring accusations against a specific editor? Isn't that practically the definition of a disruptive sockpuppet? If you're an active Wikipedian in good standing, then come and voice your concerns and complaints as an active Wikipedian in good standing. I'll leave the merits of your case to others to hash out, but I don't think you'll get far asking for an administrator's powers to be taken away by your wishes, particularly since you don't feel that the Arbitration Committee is impartial to this case. If the ArbCom can't judge this, then who will? An unruly mob? (Never mind that the ArbCom, practically speaking, is the only body likely to perform a de-sysopping in this sort of case.) --Emufarmers 06:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I disagree, Emufarmers, if the user has a reson to fear reprisals, then surely that it is a valid use of a sock-puppet account. I have not read through the complaint in enough detail to comment on the complaint yet. Johntex\ 06:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    From WP:SOCK: "Multiple accounts may have legitimate uses, but you must refrain from using them in any way prohibited to sock puppets, and from using one account to support the position of another, the standard definition of sock puppetry." In my first sentence, I disclose and make clear this account will not be used in any other setting to support my real account. Besides, what needs to be judged are facts. I'm just presenting them. Who I am couldn't be less relevant.--SecondMostLikely 06:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    My guess is that the above is User:Gnetwerker, a number of whose sockpuppet accounts I've blocked recently (and who enjoys starting threads on AN/I to cause trouble); or User:Homeontherange, who has previously created a sockpuppet, User:Schroedinger_the_Cat, to comment on the IP Frehley block; or User:WordBomb, the original IP Frehley account holder.
    IP Frehley was an account set up by indefblocked User:WordBomb. I blocked WordBomb because he posted what he thinks are personal details about User:Mantanmoreland. When asked for an assurance that he wouldn't do it again, in exchange for an unblock, he responded by posting the details once more on his talk page, so that was that. He started making allegations by e-mail that Mantanmoreland had used a sockpuppet account. I like Mantanmoreland and think he's a good editor, so I didn't want to have to judge whether to block him for sockpuppetry. I therefore handed the situation over to FloNight as an uninvolved admin, and she has been dealing with it since then, together with Fred Bauder who has conducted a check user and, I believe, has blocked some of the accounts WordBomb/IP Frehley set up. That's it in a nutshell. SlimVirgin 06:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Thanks for the reply SlimVirgin. But unless I missed it, you didn't address the problem, which was the accused violation of trust at best, policy at worst.
    Did you in fact share IPFrehley's confidential email with Mantanmoreland, and if not, how did he come to open the document attached to it? --SecondMostLikely
    Without regards to this particular case which I found bordeline incomprehensible, this is a clear application of the segregation and security section. Although "I really don't want blow-back" isn't explicitly mentioned there, it's clear from context that it is an acceptable reason to use a sock. This doesn't mean I like it much. - brenneman 06:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I wouldn't see this as a fair use of that; the segregation and security bit seems more for conflicts that might emerge from edits to an article. I don't want to distract from the merits (or demerits) of this case, though, so I won't push it further. --Emufarmers 06:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    This stuff is classic trolling. There was an incident, a minor incident which did not amount to much. Based on that minor incident a number of administrators have wasted a great deal of time due to the agitation of this editor. There is no end to it, but nevertheless there never was much to it. Fred Bauder 06:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Thanks for the reply Fred. But unless I missed it, you didn't address the problem, which was the accused violation of trust at best, policy at worst.
    Do you condone the sharing of one editor's confidential email with another s/he is accusing of wrongdoing? Do you share confidential email? --SecondMostLikely 14:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    The allegation of breach of implied confidentiality is serious though, and merits response. (Not necessarily investigation -- but response: some explanation or justification.) It is not OK for an administrator to tell or imply to someone that they will keep private communications private, and then leak them to the other side of a dispute. If one is going to act as an impartial administrator, one must not do things like that. --FOo 07:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    The allegation is worthless, considering the source. The allegation can safely be ignored. Move along. --Golbez 08:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Thanks for the reply Golbez. But unless I missed it, you didn't address the problem, which was the accused violation of trust at best, policy at worst.
    Do you condone the sharing of one editor's confidential email with another s/he is accusing of wrongdoing? Do you feel policy should apply to all editors equally, or just case by case?--SecondMostLikely 14:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I'll answer that question when it becomes relevant. --Golbez 18:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Editors who are obvious trolls who are playing 'gotcha' and wasting our time shouldn't be surprised to find themselves blocked. Concur with Fred; there's no reason to waste our time here. If a useful editor had been blocked, I'd be more interested in the ensuing discussion. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Thanks for the reply TenOfAllTrades. But unless I missed it, you didn't address the problem, which was the accused violation of trust at best, policy at worst.
    And may I express my deepest sense of disappointment at your apparent belief that WP policy be administered on a sliding scale, depending on how "interesting" one finds an editor?
    Shame on you.--SecondMostLikely 14:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I think some context is needed here. Fred discovered that Mantanmoreland was using a second account and editing a particular article with both accounts. He warned Mantanmoreland to stop, and as far as I know, he has. WordBomb, and later Homey for some reason, decided Mantanmoreland had to be publically pilloried, filing two RFCUs (which were declined) and asking Fred (on more than one occasion I believe) to make a more public statement, which he has declined to do. Unless you share the opinion that a good editor who made one mistake and stopped after warning should be publically crucified, there's really no reason to entertain this discussion any longer. Thatcher131 (talk) 15:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Why is anyone even discussing this here? What one does with one's emails in one's own business. I don't even know if I believe what this sockpuppet is saying. I do know, however, that IPFrehley should have been blocked on sight for an unacceptable username. User:Zoe|(talk) 15:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I blocked SecondMostLikely. There is an ongoing harassment of Mantanmoreland (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) and SlimVirgin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). This may be acceptable on Misplaced Pages Review, not welcome here. These allegations have been reviewed and my decisons explained in detail to WordBomb and Homey. Nothing is being hiden or ignored. It has been raised several other times on AN/I. It has been noted on a current RFA raised. The user needs to use standard dispute resolution protocal not parade a caravan of abusive sockpuppets/meatpuppets through the talk pages of our community. FloNight 15:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Thank you. Phr (talk) 16:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    User:Tobias Conradi ( again )

    See User_talk:Tobias_Conradi#Civility_warning. This user Tobias Conradi (talkcontribspage movesblock userblock log) has went back to being less than civil. (here's one example, there are others, check his contribs: ) I warned him about it and got some incivil comments back. Based on his past history I blocked him for 24 hours to give him time to think but he resumed incivility to me and to other admins that turned up and counseled that he calm down. So I increased the block to 48 hours. According to him I'm an abusive admin who is out to buy him and I have a Napoleonic complex which I've suborned into harrasing him personally. According to me, I'm just doing what we're supposed to do, keep an eye on users with a past history of difficulty with our norms. So... here I am. You decide... I invite review of this block. ++Lar: t/c 07:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    See also Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive119#User:Tobias_Conradi for more background on a previous time we had a flareup. ++Lar: t/c 07:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I'm hardly an impartial party in this, but I agree that it's far overdue for someone to tell Tobias what we expect in the way of civility. --Golbez 08:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I would never personally block an editor in response to rudeness to me. However, I cannot find fault with this block either. His behavior was clearly out of line. Friday (talk) 15:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I disagree for blocking for "personal attacks." One reason I do is that the person who makes them is usually breaking a number of other rules and conventions at the same time. Take this guy: he seems to be here to disrupt. He came to DRV shadow boxing, throwing jabs at nothing, just begging for someone to quarrel with. That's disruption. It isn't even civility, as much as it is hysteria, if not outright paranoia. I support the block, as he has had multiple occasions to choose between writing articles and writing attacks, and he has chosen the latter. Geogre 22:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Organized attacks against user:rctxtreme

    This user is the target of organized vandalism. He is referred to as "Richard" or "Richard Wang" by the vandals. Looking at their edits, they appear to be some school bullies. Two users, P0wnt (talk · contribs) and R1ch4rd 1s 4 m0r0n (talk · contribs), have already been blocked as a vandalism-only accounts and I am requesting that the following accounts are blocked as well. I have listed them in order from most recent attack:

    Annete Brewster (talk · contribs)
    Surfer dale (talk · contribs)
    Ryu Takanashi (talk · contribs)
    Dennis Xin (talk · contribs)
    Annihi Later (talk · contribs), a sockpuppet of Annihi later (talk · contribs)
    Annihi later (talk · contribs), has only made 6 edits unrelated to this incident in addition to 16 attacks.
    144.131.71.175 (talk · contribs)
    Christopher Mills (talk · contribs)
    A dot a red spot (talk · contribs)
    Miss Kelly Potter (talk · contribs), whose talkpage includes an inflammatory poem about "Richard"
    Ming sect4 (talk · contribs)
    Cenandor (talk · contribs)
    218.214.47.219 (talk · contribs)
    Cenabee (talk · contribs)
    Bob the moving monkey (talk · contribs), has not directly insulted "Richard", but appears to be sided with the vandals
    143.238.96.93 (talk · contribs), possibly the IP of Wizard1973 (talk · contribs)
    Wizard1973 (talk · contribs), may be an account reserved until the above IP is banned?
    60.229.164.120 (talk · contribs)
    Ukifitutios (talk · contribs)

    I have checked each of the accounts' edits (blah), and unless noted above, each account has no edits that are not vandalism or attacks. Hyenaste  08:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    It looks like User:Edgar181 (him mostly) and I have blocked most of the accounts. This looks like a serious issue that needs further investigation. Yanksox 11:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Yup. I went through each user's contributions and they are all in fact attacks on one user. All have been indef blocked. One IP is already blocked, the others have been quiet for awhile, so I didn't do anything with them. --Ed (Edgar181) 12:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Thank you both! I hate to see Misplaced Pages abused, used as some childrens' flamefest. Hyenaste  21:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Sean Howard (American webcomic artist) and WP:BLP

    Users User:Zaver, User:Vash293, and User:Dejavood0o seem to be have a different understanding of Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons than I do. Apparently they believe WP:V and WP:RS include trash talk from bloggers. Can this page be protected, users be blocked, something? -- Dragonfiend 09:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    The page is sprotected. -- Hoary 09:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Thank you. I'm not sure how much it will help as at least one of those users has an account older than 4 days, but it's worth a try. -- Dragonfiend 09:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Block of User:Cardsplayer4life by Kelly Martin

    I'm seeking a rough consensus to unblock User:Cardsplayer4life. Background information follows. This is quite condensed and I may well have omitted something important. I encourage you to do your own research before commenting.

    User:Kelly Martin declared that there was now a policy that anyone who reverted edits to a certain state would get blocked. When questioned how this new policy came about, Kelly explained:

    "I have now formulated a policy as a result of the discussion. You may continue the discussion if you wish, but the policy is now made, and will be enforced."

    "Anybody on Misplaced Pages can attempt to set policy. I just happen to be good at actually doing so, especially in the copyright arena, and so I have decided to do so in this case. If you choose to ignore the policy that I have decided is best for Misplaced Pages, you may find yourself blocked, a state which many Wikipedians find problematic."

    When Kelly was criticized for what seemed to one person like a "unilateral and intimidating" statement she explained:

    "It was unilateral, and it was intended to be intimidating."

    User:Cardsplayer4life disagreed with Kelly and reinserted images she had removed with the edit summary:

    "According to the policy: "Sports team logos may be used in articles or aticle sections where the team is discussed", so logos are ok as long as teams are discussed. (they are))"

    Kelly reverted this edit with the rollback tool and blocked Cardsplayer4life. I feel a block is not necessary and I asked Kelly if she would consider lifting it. I've waited an hour and she seems not to be online so I'm taking the issue up here instead. Would there be a rough consensus for unblocking User:Cardsplayer4life?

    I have no opinion on the policy question. Using the team logos in this way is, as far as I can tell, well within the boundaries of fair use law but it's still something we may wish to avoid. In non-emergency situations we usually set policy by discussion and consensus rather than fiat and intimidation. Haukur 10:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I stand by my block. Our policies on copyright have long supported aggressive blocking of violators. Kelly Martin (talk) 12:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    In the case of long-standing clearly defined copyright policies but I don't feel this is such a case. I've long been opposed to us having galleries of unlicenced images, see my post here, for example: but I don't think the case with the sports team logos is as clear as you imply. Whether the logos come in a batch ahead of a list or one-by-one as a part of a list does not seem to me like a crucial distinction. I'd probably tend to side with you in avoiding the batches but I don't feel we should block those who disagree. Haukur 12:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Fair use has always been explicit in this regard: images may be used only for illustrating the subject. Image galleries, userboxes, user space and so on have never been acceptable places to put unfree images. Sure, we'd love it if the logos were released into the public domain so we could have those nice image galleries that magazines have, but as I understand it we have had legal advice on this from Brad, and his legal advice is that we have to take a conservative approach or rik having our asses sued. Just zis Guy you know? 12:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Can I delete Category:Pokémon images and block anyone who reverts me? Haukur 13:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    No, but if you see a gallery of fair-use images in a Pokémon article, delete it on sight. Of late there's been a fair amount of effort on behalf of the Pokémon Wikiproject to reduce the use of fair-use images. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    So I could delete the exact same content on sight if it were anywhere else? Why can't I delete the gallery at Category:Pokémon images? Haukur 13:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    This phrase certainly rings a bell, I seem to have heard it somewhere before... right Cyde? ;) - Mailer Diablo 13:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    This is bordering on the Chewbacca defense, Haukur. Yes, the gallery in Category:Pokémon images should also be removed, for the same reason. I've added NOGALLERY for that reason, just now. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 15:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    It was added months ago, doesn't seem to work today. I don't intend this tangent as a Chewbacca defense I'm interested in the Pokémon gallery issue in its own right. If you feel it has nothing to do with the other issues discussed here then that's okay by me. Haukur 15:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    While this might be a borderline case where copyright is concerned, the 'gallery' format for displaying the logos looks like it runs afoul of our policy. Subjectively, I'd be inclined to argue that the gallery format doesn't look very good, either—it's just an array of logos chunked into the middle of an article. In any event, there was an ongoing (albeit rather slow) edit war going on over the inclusion of the images. There should have been a discussion and resolution on this issue before the images went back into the article, and Cardsplayer4life should have known better to continue revert warring. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Look, fair use laws suck. We all know that. However, we have actual legal advice for this, and we must follow it. --mboverload@ 12:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Do you have a link for the actual legal advice? Haukur 12:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Sometimes legal advice is necessarily not published so that one doesn't become liable to outsiders. --Cyde Weys 13:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Is this such a case? Haukur 13:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    You can ask Brad yourself (in private) ... Cyde Weys 13:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Okay, I've now sent him an e-mail. Haukur 13:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Ok, I'm not a lawyer. I do however work in a high-level govenment agency that is stacked to the rooftops with lawyers, and personally deal with complex legal matters almost every day. Generalised copyright law discussions under privilege? That seems highly unlikely. I'd say "almost bloody impossible to believe" but then I might be pushing the edge of asuming good faith. - brenneman 13:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    This branch of discussion is irrelevant because the usages can be legal and still be a violation of our policy. ed g2stalk 14:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    It's also needless conjecture. Jimbo Has Spoken, and he has spoken with the pretty clear force of having spoken with his friend Brad. Consider for a moment: you are a founding trustee, another trustee is a lawyer, you are considering the legal issues surrounding use of copyright images. Do you (a) make it up as you go along or (b) phone a friend? I know which I'd do. As the audience ocmes a pretty poor third in my view, which is what we're doing here. Just zis Guy you know? 14:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    There's a difference between doing someting that is probably be correct and doing so while acting like a total prat. Which are we discussing here? - brenneman 13:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Kelly was right in terms of policy, and I support the block. She may have pushed the limits of WP:BLOCK by enacting the block herself (), as she had been involved in the dispute herself, and it could have appeared that she was breaching
    "Use of blocks to gain an advantage in a content dispute is strictly prohibited. That is, sysops must not block editors with whom they are currently engaged in a content dispute".
    However, if we accept (and I do), that this was not a content dispute but a copyright issue, I'd say she acted legally here. Whether she could have handled the issue more sensitively is another matter.
    Not that it makes much difference to the issue being discussed, but I thought the galleries looked poor too. --Guinnog 13:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I feel Kelly may have been a bit harsh with blocking, even if she is right about how galleries involving logos should be handled, particularly because it came just hours after the policy addition (or clarification). However, it definitely was not a good idea for User:Cardsplayer4life to revert over an edit that had "anyone who reverts this article to include the gallery WILL be blocked." in the edit summary. The better course of action would have been to discuss what he felt was right with Kelly Martin. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 13:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    She didn't exactly invite further discussion with the four consecutive edit summaries of: "This ends, now", "enough", "the debate has been weighed and is now over" and "discussions may not continue forever". As for the fair use question I still feel that there is very little difference between this (which Kelly says we should block people for) and this (which Kelly says is qualitatively different and needs to be discussed separately). I don't think any court would draw a line in the sand between those two styles, though, like Kelly, I prefer the first. Haukur 14:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    The block itself

    It's pretty clear: If there is any question about fair use status, don't re-insert the image. It's a no-nosense block when someone does this. - brenneman 13:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I endorse this, but add that there needs to be a clear, unequivocal policy on this that we can refer users to. I believe this user to have been engaged in a good-faith effort to improve the project. Ambiguity in policy leads us to this sort of unpleasant incident. --Guinnog 13:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Huh? There's never no question, there is no limit to what copyright holders will claim they're entitled to control. Remember Mad (magazine)#Mad v. Supreme Court? Someone made an intelligent comment at m:avoid copyright paranoia:
    "It isn't Misplaced Pages's mission to keep fair use alive. It is within Misplaced Pages's mission to keep Misplaced Pages alive.

    Nevertheless, there's altogether too much anti-"fair use" rhetoric thrown around in the effort to keep Wiki secure.

    "Copyright paranoia" is generally a bad thing -- a very bad thing, which causes us to voluntarily abandon our fair use rights before they are even legislated or adjudicated away from us. In the very narrow realm of the wiki, copyright paranoia is mostly a good thing that is, very unfortunately, conditioning many users toward a view of copyright that is every media corporation's wet-dream."

    It's likely Brad can't share confidential legal advice with random users (as opposed to with the Foundation board). However, if there's been some kind of Misplaced Pages policy shift as the result of an open Wikimania discussion, it would be good if a transcript (or at least audio) were posted on-wiki. And if we really want to be paranoid, we better also get rid of all the source citations everywhere in the wiki, that consist of fair-use quotation of text. Images aren't special as far as copyright is concerned. Phr (talk) 14:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Automatic galleries

    This is meant as an honest question, not a trick question. Why is this gallery of 12 fair use images from 12 different copyright holders used within the context of discussing the 12 entities represented a blockworthy offence but Category:Pokémon_images, a gallery of 200 copyrighted images from the same copyright holder, used outside the context of discussing those entities not a problem at all? Haukur 14:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Briefly, the idea is that the nature of the use is very different. We're not presenting the category thumbnails as an article or finished product; the image list and thumbnails are automatically generated when images are in a category. Kelly v. Arriba Soft Corporation is probably closest to being on point here, but IANAL, and YMMV. Deliberately creating a thumbnail gallery and distributing it as part of an article is a much different usage. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:52, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    True, our intentions are different but still. If you go to an article about a particular Pokémon there'll be a prominent picture of that Pokémon. Click on that picture and you get a page about the image. That image page has a link to Category:Pokémon_images. To me that link says: "Hey! You want to look at some Pokémon images? Here are lots more!" So, unintentionally, we've created and widely linked to a page which is nothing but a gallery with unlicenced images. Saying "well, it's not a finished product so we're not really publishing it" sounds awfully weak to me. Search for "Pokémon images" on Google and this Misplaced Pages gallery is your second hit. How can we reasonably say that we are not publishing a gallery of Pokémon images? Haukur 15:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Do all image categories create galleries instead of lists of links (like other categories)? If so, this needs to be changed in the mediawiki software. If this particular category is set up to display specifically as a gallery, that should be changed. There is nothing wrong with the category per se, but it should display as links, not pictures, if possible. Thatcher131 (talk) 15:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Normally, adding __NOGALLERY__ makes it show up as a list of links instead of a gallery of thumbs. I don't know why it's not working in that category. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 15:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Aha, see Wikipedia_talk:Fair_use#NOGALLERY_tag. But not nearly all categories which need this tag currently have it. I just added it to Category:Star Wars characters. Haukur 15:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    You can certainly add it wherever it is appropriate. Thatcher131 (talk) 15:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    It sounds as if __NOGALLERY__ needs to be deprecated and __GALLERY__ needs to be an opt-in' measure for categories, then, if we're going to be serious about our standards. -- nae'blis 19:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    The way it was done

    Totally inappropiate. The discussion at Logo talk is frankly the most shocking thing I have ever seen an administrator say. - brenneman 13:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I wouldn't agree with the strength of your statement, but it would have been better for Kelly to have involved others and to have issued more warnings, in my opinion. --Guinnog 13:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    How many warnings do you have to issue? The user clearly knew that he was violating the policy and that Kelly was going to block him, unless he didn't read the previous edit summaries, which would've been very foolish. On a page that has had copyright material added inappriopriately about a dozen times, stating "do this again and you will be blocked" is entirely appropriate. If someone, in the face of that final warning, does it again, it's a clear cut case for an instant block. ed g2stalk 13:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I accept that. However, see my comments above about it being desirable to have a clear policy to refer editis to in cases like this. Involving more people would have more clearly preserved the appearance of fairness, which is important. --Guinnog 14:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Our policy is not the same as "what is Fair Use". The second case is not acceptable under either, it's just not covered by this specific policy, which relates to galleries. ed g2stalk 14:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    And again, it's possible to do the right thing and still be totally wrong about it. "I have just made policy" and "It was meant to be intimidating" are just about as far wrong as you can go with adminstrative powers. Or is it no longer meant to be "no big deal" after all? - brenneman 14:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Agree. There's ways to be persuasive and emphatic without making it such an overt domination of will - in fact, I would say that being overly-dominant, together with a hint of smarm ("many Wikipedians find problematic.") encourages the behavior of rebellion more than an approach that seeks comity. KWH 14:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Bottom line, it seems to me, is we need to balance keeping our project free and immune from criticism on copyright issues, and not putting off good contributors. Let's put it another way; although I agree that the blocked editor acted very unwisely, and as I said I support the block, when we have to block people for this kind of thing it is a good sign that the policy needs tweaked and/or clarified, so that it won't happen again. --Guinnog 14:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I have been a participant of the discussion on the logos almost from day one. In fact, I proposed a clarification to the logo guideline that would have specifically clarified that galleries were not OK and that certain other uses are OK. You can read about this at ]. There was productive discussion occurring on this over the last several days. Then Kelly Martin, apparantly based partly on some discussions Kelly had at Wikimania, decided to swoop in and unilaterally declare what the policy should be. In my opinion, this is not the right way to do things.
    The discussion was going along fine and Kelly does not have the right to come in and attempt to exercise some sort of veto and then begin blocking people. I have openned up a request for comment at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Kelly Martin2.
    By allowing Kelly to issue blocks on this - we would be playing right into Kelly's hand of unilateralism, which would be a shame. Johntex\ 14:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I am getting really sick and tired of having the word "unilateral" thrown around like some meaningless sort of epithet. Every time someone uses any admin action now you hear the peanut gallery decrying it as "unilateral". I believe the discussion on this page so far clearly demonstrates that Kelly is not acting unilaterally. --Cyde Weys 14:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Odd. She said she was. Regardless, when I used the word, I was referring to the appearance of her initial proclamation. That other admins have decided to support it is irrelevant to how the pronouncment appeared when issued. Powers 15:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    It's not meaningless - Kelly actually acted unilaterally. Your agreement with her unilateral actions doesn't somehow make it a multilateral one. It's funny - those who act within the basic policies and guidelines when it comes to creating policy or acting in a divisive measure don't get accused of unilateralism. It's not hard to figure out when those tenets are abandoned. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Policies are put in Black and White in Wikimanias? Gasp! Then I guess I have to make sure Wikimania is held in Singapore next year! =O - Mailer Diablo 15:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    It's appropriate to be agressive in defending against potential legal problems. However, cases like this should remind us all that it's possible to do the right thing in a wrong way. Whatever objectives can be accomplished by rudeness and bullying can be accomplished even more effectively without rudeness and bullying. Friday (talk) 15:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Completely agree with Friday. Though I may disagree with the outcome of the "policy" dicussion, the hostile way which Kelly Martin chose to deal with this does not assist reasonable editor and admins that just want to work to clarify the issue and, in the end, make Misplaced Pages a better encyclopedia. The bottom line is that Kelly had other options, and she chose the one that blocked a dedicated editor, aggitated those that disagreed with her interpretation of policy, and opened this entire issue up to outside scrutiny. To say that this is the only reasonable way to achieve her policy goals is patently untrue. In the end, you reap what you sew. -- Masonpatriot 15:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I am a concerned about one aspect of this thread: I was at Wikimania, & I never knew any substantial & formal discussion about image galleries took place. (Maybe I was too busy meeting various Wikipedians from "the old days" like Andre Engels & Sannse.) Not that I would have attended any meeting on this matter because I had other interests in attending; yet one item I remember that was discussed repeatedly at this conference was the need for transparency. Call me a process fetishist, but if a decision like this is made, either it should be done as visibly as possible or its implementation needs to be as gradual as possible. -- llywrch 22:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I have a brilliant idea!

    If there was a powerful consensus at Wikimania backed by Foundation legal council, how about we wait for some who, ideally, has strong and offical ties to the Foundation, considering the importance to the Foundation of the copyright policy, to explicitly edit the policy before we start throwing around the result of discussions at Wikimania as justifications for blocking, revert warring, and other such frivolity. --Avillia 17:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    But where would this leave the folks who enjoy being a fanatic? ;-) Friday (talk) 17:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Telling each other that operating system X zomgpwns the others. --Avillia 18:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Too much drama. KM should have just edited the pertinent policy page, sparing us the latest. El_C 19:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Boring. If we stopped giving Wikitruth material they'd have to go out on the street with "Will dance for food" signs. --Sam Blanning 00:54, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    Cannot export pages

    I can't export the full page history using Special:Export. Anyone know what's wrong?? --TheM62Manchester 10:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Probably better suited for the technical Village Pump but as far as I know, I thought it was disabled for performance reasons? --james 10:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    It was recently re-enabled. Possibly disabled again? (Liberatore, 2006). 12:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    User:Feedyourfeet

    A while back there was some argy-bargy with Feedyourfeet (talk · contribs) whitewashing his Talk page. He is at it again (no surprise there) and accusing me of a personal attack for criticising his hiding his Talk archive (where he puts all evidence of controversy suyrrounding his behaviour if he doesn't simply delete it) behind a full stop. Yes, if you go to User Talk:Feedyourfeet, just under the "click here to leave me a message" text, on the left, there is a full stop which is a link to a partial archive of warnings and other critical comments. The real comedy here is that he's been engaged in a war with User:Rebecca over - guess what? - removing the comments he leaves on her Talk page! My irony meter burned out when I saw it... I'm not sure if it's an incident, as far as I'm concerned it's mainly another example of an obviously opinionated editor being determined to portray themselves as whiter than white, but if anyone uninvolved feels like helping him with some constructive comments then I'd appreciate it. Just zis Guy you know? 12:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I've been conversing with him about this, and he's on his final warning. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Ugh, what a mess. I've blocked him after warning him about removing warnings, and had to threaten to protect his talk page to get him to stop him from "archiving" the conversation that led to his blocking. He now has an {{unblock}} on his talk page. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    No surprises there. I've told him before, it's OK to archive finished discussions, but this business of the archive hidden behind a full stop is simply trolling. Just zis Guy you know? 14:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Ted1751

    Ted1751 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a prolific libel vandal (All contributions have been removed by oversight due to their content). Edits were to UK sports and media figures, alleging criminal convictions, usually of a sex crime. In one instance the vandal had gone to the trouble to create a webpage on Freewebs in order to provide a "reference" for his libel. He is now complaining about being blocked as General Tojo. I have invited him to email me from his Tiscali email account for an explanation. Fred Bauder 14:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    He has now created Rob6969 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), again most vandalism was per se libel and has been removed. Fred Bauder 16:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Disproportionate force

    It amuses me... this essentially is the reason my talkpage is protected... administrators admit JzG was out of line but reason that indefinitely protecting my talkpage, with the stated reason of making me leave, is okay because I wasnt being fair. I wasnt being "nice" to him. Just for the record, when are you planning on unprotecting my talkpage? Or how about, when can I vote on RFAs again, since JzG's cronies are now telling Mets501 that I cant vote. Is there even any imaginary rational for my talkpage being protected or is this just a case of "yah, way to sock it to him"? Tchadienne 16:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    If you are counting me as one of "JzG's cronies", then I just told him the exact opposite of what you said here. There's no reason why you can't "vote" in an RfA, but the closing 'crat will no doubt take into account the fact you previously set up a sockpuppet account to flout your block and tried to vote with it in that same RfA. See also
    As to your talk page being unprotected, would you undertake not to breach policy or remove any future warnings you may receive from it? I've a feeling that would be a prerequisite for unprotecting it. It would with me anyway. --Guinnog 16:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Cardsplayer4life again

    The blocked user has now commented on his talk page:

    "Wow, thanks everyone for all the nice comments and positive support. I have never been blocked before (never even received a warning before). I would comment on you guys' individual pages, but I can't because I am blocked. I really enjoy editing on wikipedia, and wish I would have got a warning or something before being blocked. (you can look back at my post record, I am not a troll or anything like that) Reading through the policy, it seems as if I was indeed correct in my edits, as I understand it. I will be leary of any edits I make to pages in the future, as it seems making edits to pages might result in being blocked again in the future. I guess I will be hanging up my Misplaced Pages hat for awhile, since it seems as if I might be causing trouble that I did not intend to cause. I apologize if I did anything to cause too much trouble, I sure did not mean to. As a word of advice to admins, in the future it might be good to give out a warning telling an individual what they were doing wrong, before blocking them, especially when the policy is ambiguous at best, and direct them to the place where the official policy states they can't do what they are doing. (I still haven't received anything telling me why what I did was wrong. All references I have seen have only backed up what I did as being correct.) In any event, it has been fun. Perhaps I will be back in the future at some point. (Cardsplayer4life 16:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC))"

    Irrespective of whether the original block was right or not, can we unblock him now? It seems to me that this is a good user who didn't mean any harm and won't do any harm if unblocked. Haukur 16:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I support an unblock. Blocks are for damage control, never punishment. It certainly appears that the point has been made. Friday (talk) 16:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I also support an unblock. I thought this is what talk page warnings and messages were for.--Firsfron of Ronchester 16:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    While I support Kelly's wish to uphold Fair Use policy, I would also support an unblock as blocks are meant to be preventative rather than punitive. I do not think there is any benefit to Misplaced Pages in leaving him blocked. AnnH 16:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Unblocking should do no harm, and might do some good. Tom Harrison 17:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I will consider an unblock request if and only if Cardsplayer4life promises not only not to do this particular thing again (that is, insert a gallery of unlicensed images into a page on Misplaced Pages, something which is clearly outside of policy), but also to ensure that he has examined both the history and the talk pages of any article before editing it. His failure to do so is the cause of this block. Ample warning was in place that reverting the gallery would be responded to with a block; his unawareness of this is due to his own negligence. Ignorance of warnings placed on talk pages or in recent edit history is not an excuse for gross breaches of policy. Also, please don't expect a threat to leave Misplaced Pages to generate sympathy; please see meatball:GoodBye. Kelly Martin (talk) 17:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    If and only if? I'd have thought that several people supporting the unblock, all for similiar reasons, might be reason enough by itself to consider unblocking. Friday (talk) 17:13, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    If it was "clearly outside of policy" we wouldn't be having these problems. I still haven't gotten a clear explanation for why a bunch of images inside a <gallery /> tag is "clearly outside of policy" while the same bunch of images outside the tag isn't. Powers 19:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I support an immediate unblock. Kelly's insistence on a personal apology for supposedly violating a supposed policy which is not even on a policy page is out of line. Johntex\ 17:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Currently six people have come out in favour of unblocking and none against except Kelly. I've gone ahead and unblocked the user. I hope that was the right thing to do. Haukur 17:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Make that seven. I'd have done it too. Bastique voir 17:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Sounds good. Of course, should the user re-insert the galleries, block him again (now there has been more than ample warning). Kusma (討論) 17:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Just for the record, I also fully support an unblock. --Conti| 17:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Thank you for the unblock. I appear to have the ability to edit now. I harbor no ill will towards Kelly, as I hope she does not towards me. Having policy decided beforehand, so that people are clear on what they can and can't do, might be wise in the future, or at the very least having a discussion before blocking might be a way to handle things better in the future. I was perfectly willing to discuss matters (as evidenced by my posting on the discussion page), but using moderation powers to come up with individual policies makes it very hard for individual Wikipedians to know how to make edits. (in other words, moderators can come up with policy spur of the moment, with no offical written policy, and it is hard to read the minds of them beforehand). In any event, I will try to keep my edits to a minimum in the future to avoid causing any further trouble, I am generally a very peaceful individual and really dislike conflict. (Cardsplayer4life 17:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC))
    It should be noted that Cardsplayer4life (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) reverted the gallery back onto the page as a logged-out user while he was blocked. (I don't understand why he wasn't autoblocked, but that's an issue for the devs.) It now appears seems that an unblock was quite inappropriate. However, in the interest of comity and given that Ed g2s has already reverted the reversion, I will refrain from imposing the one week block to which Cardsplayer4life is fully entitled. Any more shenanigans and I will not hesitate to impose the one month block that is the penalty for a third intentional violation of copyright policy, however. Kelly Martin (talk) 00:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    The issue, no doubt, is that Ed blocked anons only, whilst allowing IPs to edit. The obvious solution, since the IP is reasonably static, is to block the IP with all editing disabled and see if anyone has the temerity to complain about the collateral damage. Granted, a check of that IPs edit history make it pretty obvious. Mackensen (talk) 00:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    Kelly... Could you show me what section of copyright policy prohibits the use of galleries such as this specific case? It's quite clear the images are being used in a fashion which fits one basic principle of fair use, "describing the subject in question." --Avillia 00:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    They're not "describing the subject in question". They're decorating another (admittedly related) subject. And our "fair use" policy does not allow that. The use of a team's icon in an article about a league that the team is a member of adds no more information about the league than does the inclusion of the team's name in its list of members. Since the former requires the use of unlicensed media, and the latter does not, we preference the latter. I am not going to point to specific policy because this is simply obvious common sense, and Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy. Kelly Martin (talk) 00:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    From the above I'd say you're owed seven apologies. Thatcher131 (talk) 01:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    Give us a break. As if this makes the wildly inappropiate behavior all ok in some manner. When someone makes a block, it's courtesy to talk about it before unblocking, and that's what was shown here. Apologise for courtesy?? On the other hand, demanding that the editor aspire to some arbitrary higher standard before you'll consent to an unblock, especially in light of the adminstratorial conduct here, is simply farcical. Yes, it's bad that the ip/editor again chose to re-insert images while discussion was ongoing, but this damage is easy to contain. The damage from the corrosive attitude displayed in "creating policy" leading up to the block is not easily contained, and is thus a much larger problem. Is it really so mentally difficuly to seperate these two things: Block ok, manner of block not ok.
    brenneman 01:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    Has that IP actually been check usered to be confirmed as him, or is just assumption as it rolled back the edit? The other edits by the IP appear unrelated. rootology (T) 01:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    I've applied the second level block; this guy clearly knew what he did was wrong, and yet he used block evasion to come do it anyway. Despicable. But what's even more despicable was that he was awarded a barnstar by an administrator for his actions. When did it become right to reward insincere apologies and block evasions while condemning our administrators who prevent fair use violations? --Cyde Weys 01:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    As I just posted to Kelly on the RfC, she said she did checkuser him, but...before we set this guy out to hang, would it be possible to just get a neutral/3rd party CheckUser user to confirm? Not calling you a liar, but the last two times I piped up to lend support one or way or another on a behind the scenes Misplaced Pages thing it turned into not just a nightmare, but had people screaming all sorts of accusations. Just that way everything would be "above board" and no one could come back after Kelly to say anything negative later. I'm not saying this sudden turn of events is done as spin or anything, but having another 3rd party checkuser person check it out and post the results would nip everything in the bud for possible speculation like that. rootology (T) 01:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    Mackensen is a checkuser. i take his statement as confirmation. Thatcher131 (talk) 04:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    Yeah, I know now, I didn't when I posted here. It's all sorted I guess, just being discussed on the talk page of the RfC now. rootology (T) 04:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    I came here before the RfC. Just so anyone checking in will know the answer. Thatcher131 (talk) 04:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I support blocking him for sock-puppetry and block evasion. This bad behaviour by Card does not change my opinion that the original block was invalid, but that is no excuse to evade a block that would soon have expired anyway. Johntex\ 05:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    No, this certainly does not warrant an indefinite block. Cardsplayer4life shows an agreeable and cooperative attitude in his comments above and on his talk page. If he, while blocked, logged out and reverted again, that's a very bad action, but it may well have been an action made in frustration about being blocked so brusquely. Given the attitude of cooperativity he displays here, I think we should be forgiving in this case. At least ask him first if (and why) he did it.
    Also, blocks should be preventive, not punitive. Is there any reason to expect any more wrongdoing from Cardsplayer4life's part, or are some people here entertaining the thought of a punitive block? (Note that he says on his talk page he will not edit that particular page again.) — mark 08:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    Agree wholeheartedly with Mark. I believe all recently blocked users should be cut some slack regarding what they do in the frustration of reacting to the block. For instance, don't scrutinize their posts for personal attacks, don't expect model behavior, don't take it so personally if they tell you how abusive you are. A block is a shock. All admins are more powerful than all regular users; but admins are so much more powerful than a blocked user that it should give them pause. It's not the right moment to express your irritation with how much trouble the user is being by slapping on an indefinite. Assume even more good faith than usual. This all goes double if the first block can be seen as dubious or unfair. I support unblocking now. Oh, and btw, I'm assuming good faith on Deckiller's comment that we "might be able to get an indefinite for this": I'm sure he didn't mean it as crassly as it sounded. Bishonen | talk 08:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC).

    Spelling war

    User:Peterpansyndrome has started a spelling campaign, changing many words and dates to his own idiosyncratic preferred spelling/format. He is now repeatedly changing the table at Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (spelling) without discussion or even giving references. I think he has now broken 3RR, but the problem seems more general than that. JPD (talk) 17:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I also note that it is not inconceivable that this user has something to do with previously banned User:Pnatt, who was also interested in Cranbourne and engaged in spelling wars as an Australian using spelling that tended towards US usage. JPD (talk) 18:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    There is no doubt in my mind that it is pnatt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Same group of articles, same fight, and he even used his first name with this account. I will block him. I suspect that he will go on a tirade vandalizing my user page again. -- JamesTeterenko 18:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Yup, he has started already as 203.49.189.70 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Pretty soon he'll start calling me a wombat again!  :) -- JamesTeterenko 18:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    By the looks of it, he's now re-registered as NHLfan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log): he's reverted Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (spelling) back to Peterpansyndrome's version, has requested that Cranbourne, Victoria be unprotected (compare this and this), and his user page consists of a list of "watchlist" articles, which give the game away somewhat. --RFBailey 21:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I've blocked this sock. At least he is making it easy for us. -- JamesTeterenko 22:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Should Pnatt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) be community banned, or should we give him opportunity to reform?? I think we should try and help him to reform. --TheM62Manchester 22:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I'd love to help in this project. I've tried to help when he was still able to edit legally, but found it extremely difficult. He has some sort of OCD that urges him to do things that make it hard to AGF. However, other editors manage to survive with similar tendencies, so I wouldn't rule him out completely. I just wish this had been handled with less rancour and more understanding right at the start. --Jumbo 22:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    That's my point. Maybe we should unblock him, and put him on probation. --TheM62Manchester 22:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Please remember that there was a very clear consensus to ban him before. He should not be unblocked without consensus to undo that. I know Jumbo feels that he can be reformed, but many administrators believe that he can not. -- JamesTeterenko 22:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I'm not saying that it would be easy. In fact my heart quails at the thought! But I can see his point of view. However, this is not a question that could be decided without input from those who have dealt with him before and I doubt very much that there would be any consensus to unban him now. --Jumbo 22:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Is this related to User:SpNeo's recent spelling change edits? Reverted example here Pete.Hurd 22:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Probably not. Pnatt's style is swift and confrontational. If only he would slow down a bit, get consensus for his changes, and not engage in edit wars, then we could work constructively with him. Some of his edits are of genuine merit, and he cites sources to support his views. --Jumbo 22:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I agree, it does not appear that this user is the same as Pnatt. The editing pattern is very different. -- JamesTeterenko 22:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I don't think it needs saying, but it's worth making clear that I, for one, would completely oppose an unblock. We tried "mentoring" him, and it didn't work. I wouldn't consider an unblock sooner than a year after I implemented the community ban, leave alone a month. I know this will sound harsh to Jumbo and others that have done their best to reform Pnatt, but I'm not sure why this particular tendentious edit warrior has received so much sympathy compared to the others that pass through this page. --Sam Blanning 00:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    Time for action on Tchadienne?

    Tchadienne (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). Search for his name above in this page and he pops up more than a few times now. I do not propose a community ban on the user, though others might: this individual has contributed a lot of good stuff to the encyclopedia and I think only ArbCom should be allowed to make that kind of decision in a case like this. I will note that Tchadienne has announced his intention to switch accounts, but to occasionally use the Tchadienne account for edits in those areas he has previously edited in. Instead, if you look at his contribs over the last day or so (since he was unblocked), he has used the the account for fighting, name-calling, personal attacks, and a disruptive spate of incivility. This is not a legitimate use of multiple accounts. I therefore propose that Tchadienne be blocked indefinitely, with the understanding that he is for now free to go and peacefully edit under the new account he has probably switched to by now. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Heartily agree, as one who previously argued for giving him a chance. See my user talk page, for example. There is no value in having this account remain open. --Guinnog 18:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    As a small aside... the word Tchadienne is French for "woman from Chad". So "he" is much more likely a "she". (Netscott) 18:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Yes, I did wonder about that. Either a she or a less-than-perfect French-speaker! It makes no odds; I am no longer going to advocate on his/her behalf and I would now happily see them banned. The good they contribute is greatly outweighed by the bad. I have a bad feeling about my own role in the matter; not one of my more successful mediation attempts. Oh well. --Guinnog 19:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    He/she has compiled an impressive block log between the three accounts they've edited under. See here for details. Aren't I Obscure? 19:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Impressive indeed. You missed out
    • 19:45, 6 August 2006 Ral315 (Talk | contribs) blocked "NOBS (contribs)" with an expiry time of indefinite (Sockpuppet used to evade a block.)
    not to mention all the user's IP identities... --Guinnog 19:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    It does indeed look like a repeating pattern of disruption, trouble, and moving on to a clean sheet to start all over again - interspered with numerous valuable contributions. The question is whether we should block the old accounts, including Tchadienne, and await developments (history indicates that there will soon be an association made with the old accounts) or whether to go to ArbCom now. Since Tchadienne has now asserted (s)he is switching accounts again I think ArbCom is unlikely to accept, so I think we bank the evidence, block the old and disruptive accounts as an inappropriate use of alternate accounts, assume good faith in respect of the change, and stand ready with the Wikitrout if it starts again. Just zis Guy you know? 19:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Yes.. chuckle chuckle chuckle. You morons probably arent too familiar with La Tchadienne now are you? No, I didnt think so. Bunchograpes, this section has... what purpose exactly? I already stated I was permanently leaving this account. If you werent such a fool, and had actually gone through my contributions, you would have seen that I tried to leave quietly. but no, you had to be a dumbass and try and exacerbate the situation. W/e. The last laugh is mutual. Tchadienne 19:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Maybe an indefinite "community's patience" ban of all of this individual's accounts isn't out of the question? (Netscott) 19:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I have blocked the user for one week for disruptive incivility. Comments welcome. Tom Harrison 19:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Well done. This account was predominantly used for bickering anyway, so it will be no great loss to the community. --Guinnog 19:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I've added "new user" to Obscure's list, as this was an obvious sockpuppet.--Firsfron of Ronchester 20:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I really don't think 1 week is good (no offense). I would go for a permanent ban; if he's leaving this account anyway, he doens't need it, and, as Guinnog said, it's predominantly used for bickering anyway. —Mets501 (talk) 21:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Well, reading his comments, 1 week doesn't seem like enough, especially when you consider that he's been acting like this pereodically for months... I don't think a week will really change much. And if he's done with this account, why does he need to use it anyway? --W.marsh 23:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    You know me; when it comes to blocking for personnal attacks I'm just a big softie. I support an indefinite block if anyone wants to extend it. Tom Harrison 01:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    I would advise against jumping to an indefinite block in this case, at least for now. When it comes to editors that have a history of positive contributions to Misplaced Pages, indefinite blocks should be the very last measure taken (preferably decided by group consensus). As far as I'm concerned, indefinite blocks should only be used when a user has shown beyond doubt that he or she will never make a positive contribution to Misplaced Pages, ever. If that hasn't been proven, but a long-term block is necessary, go with three months or so. That's plenty of time to allow someone to cool off and put things in perspective (and should be enough to discourage most unrepentant vandals). You never know when an unruly editor may just have lost his cool after a frustrating day (or week). Tijuana Brass 01:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    TB, did you read my suggestion up at the very top of this section? Noting that he has repeatedly announced his intention to abandon the Tchadienne account and move on to a new one (something he may well have already done), I suggested we make sure that happens, by indef-blocking that account, but explicitly permit him to quietly and hopefully productively move on. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 02:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    Sorry that I didn't address your initial comment very well. To clarify, I have the feeling that we're pushing this user into the position of having to creating a new account to escape other users' vengeance, rather than using blocks as a temporary measure to discourage policy violations. I do appreciate that you've proposed an alternative which allows him (or her) to fly back in under the radar, and agree that Tchadienne's behavior is inappropriate, but I sense that vindication may be outweighing mercy here. And I don't mean that as an accusation, just an observation.
    In any case, if Tchadienne has already moved on and no longer uses his/her former account, a block wouldn't be necessary. If it becomes apparent that a disruptive sock has been created, then it shouldn't be too difficult to address the issue at that future point — going for an indefinite block now may be a sort of chilling effect. ...but, then again, a few months back I tried encouraging Thewolfstar to mend her ways up until her first indefblock. I may be guilty of extending mercy to a fault here.Tijuana Brass 02:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    Sudden huge rush of new accounts

    This may not be anything bad, but it looks suspicious to me... Just looking at recent changes, and there was an enormous list of new accounts all being made at the exact same time... Looking at new account log, there is a whole page full within the last few minutes, though none of the few I checked seem to have done anything yet. At the same time as I saw that go by, almost nothing else was showing up on recent changes (not for lack of room, just like nothing was happening), and I was getting site errors saying it was having trouble. Maybe a coincidence, but thought I should mention it. -Goldom ‽‽‽ 19:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I'm going to assume that people who know more than I do are looking into it, so that if several turn out to be socks of a banned user, they can all be blocked at once. Tom Harrison 20:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I've seen this happen before, when there are database problems, so you can't update articles. User accounts are, I guess, a separate database, so registrations continue. So when you look at the recent history, you see a whole bunch of new registrations, but no page changes. It isn't a rush of new accounts, it's a lack of anything else. Fan-1967 21:13, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Oh, that makes sense. -Goldom ‽‽‽ 21:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Or maybe a nafarious user waited until there was a database problem, so he could sneak in under the radar. Or maybe you should all just ignore my paranoid suspicions. Tom Harrison 01:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    Legal threat from User:Keevaymusic

    User:Keevaymusic, who has been involved in heavy edit warring over Catman Cohen, posted legal threats on his own talk page and on Talk:Catman Cohen. NawlinWiki 20:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    As a preliminary measure, I have protected the page and stubbed it. Any other admin is welcome to undo/revert/whatever, I'm just trying to diffuse this before it becomes a huge problem. --Chris (talk) 20:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    I wouldn't call it edit warring. I solely added POV related tags yesterday. Today: someone, for the first time, actually cleaned up uncited/POV content. Previously all content was a mirror of the subjects personal webpage. Apparently the subject is demanding his official content only and blanking in protest. The subject is yelling libel claims, yet no one but him has actually ADDED any content. ccwaters 20:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    I have unprotected and reverted the article. Feel free to nominate for AfD. --Chris (talk) 20:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Possible socks of User:Drosenbe

    Below is the corespodence I had with ptk✰fgs and he recomended I report my problems here...

    Re: Drosenbe I am Angelo Liguori of Strange But Surf. I have been the victim of harrasment since by the person behind the banned aliases drosenbe, blacktooth, drosenbe626, smellyfatboy and others since April of 2006. Misplaced Pages noticed the spamming and sock puppertry of this user drosenbe enuf to ban him and his alias' The history of the Surf Music pages show that quite clearly. An attempt is now made being made to portray me as Blacktooth, one of his many aliaes.

    I need not point out his offences against Misplaced Pages, nor I do need to establish the truth of my identity. Misplaced Pages has figured it out, without my help. I have had this discussion via email with Soundclick, My Space and other sites that he abuses the freedom they allow him to slander and harrass me, my band and others. They either has banned him, forced him to remove slanderous comments or simply ignored his threats of legal action.

    I dont not want to cause trouble for him, I just want it to stop.

    Not only for my band, but for all the bands that work hard to establish themselves in history. I am quite aware of the rules and know that my band has not yet reached the level of fame to warrant grand statements in history. I am also aware that this user's only need to be part of Misplaced Pages is to continue to harras me and the entire surf genre. He has been banned from every single surf music site I can think of. I commend Misplaced Pages for the actions taken so far, for I cannot keep defending the enire genre of surf rock forever. Thank you for your time, I have tried to email other Wikipedians to discuss this but most of the editors do not have an email addy listed. Please help.

    Angelo Liguori aka Marbles Mahoney Drums/Guitar/Media Strange But Surf

    I can be reached by any of these methods...

    strangebutsurf@yahoo.com ranchodeangelo@yahoo.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marbles Mahoney (talk • contribs) .

    Where is someone claiming that Blacktooth is you? —ptk✰fgs 19:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    This discussion page... http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Blacktooth&action=history were edited as shown in the history by his latest sock puppet that you banned... $taypuffmarshmellowman - the revision can be seen here. I corrected it, but I should not have coreected a discussion page and he should not have edited it either. Most of the editors of these pages do not have emails and leaves me very little recouse but to have this public discussion.

    The page was posted by wikipedia to alert people to his vandalism, but was changed to use my name instead of his. Check the history, its there.

    This harrasment must stop. I will supply you with whatever help you need to protect not only me, but wikipedia from this continued vandalism and harrasment.

    he has also posted this self promotion page... http://en.wikipedia.org/Strange_Dave using the name... Smellyfatboy, yet anothe sock puppet of drosenbe. Misplaced Pages is under attack from this vandal, as am I and I am ready willing and able to help in any way. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marbles Mahoney (talk • contribs) .

    Thank you for your time.

    I would recommend that you make a post at Administrators' Noticeboard/Incidents. If this is a user who is continually using sockpuppets and harrassing you, you will need an administrator to deal with it. I am not an administrator (and I also did not ban any of his other accounts; I merely reported them). I realize that you were not the only one to edit my post at Blacktooth's talk page. No harm done, just avoid editing others' comments in the future. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marbles Mahoney (talkcontribs) .

    I am not sure what exactly Marbles Mahoney means when he says this user is harrassing him. However, it appears to me that User:Smellyfatboy and User:Imnotrappaport are sockpuppets of User:Drosenbe. User:Drosenbe626 and User:Blacktooth were blocked *after* a sockpuppet accusation, but Blacktooth's block was for another reason. User:$taypuffmarshmellowman is another likely sockpuppet of the same user, blocked for username choice. All of these users have focused their edits almost entirely on adding information about someone named Dave Rosenberg, or posting uncivil comments about Angelo Liguori.
    There may be other sockpuppet accounts. I've begun to lose track. —ptkfgs 20:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Repeated reverts at Kardzhali

    User:Valkov is repeatedly removing (like this ) the Turkish spelling of this Bulgarian city's name for some nationalist reason. I and User:CeeGee have tried to stop him and explain our grounds as to why the name should stay (population is 62% Turkish), but Valkov has refused to provide any sufficient rationale and has even engaged in personal attacks against CeeGee (this edit summary).

    His reverts do not violate WP:3RR, because they are usually one or several days apart (but are regular). TodorBozhinov 21:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Regarding the reason explained very clearly by Todor as above, I ask an administratot to warn User:Valkov seriously or to block him if a warning won't help. Thanks a lot. CeeGee 05:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    Chemical usernames, new vandal??

    What is it with the new usernames:


    Is this a new WoW-type vandal?? Looks like we'd better watch out!

    Anyhow, I'll create a new template for this vandal soon! --TheM62Manchester 21:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Don't waste your time on this one, they're lame. Naconkantari 21:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Did I miss something? As far as I can see, none of these people have edited and they're indefinitely blocked it appears for username violation. And TheM62Manchester has created an entire category and template for "The Chemical Vandal". How can someone be a vandal without actually doing something? Do they deserve a category and template without doing something? Metros232 22:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Sorry, bad idea of mine, apologies. What a bad idea --TheM62Manchester 22:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    As a RC patroller, this is a silly idea to create these specialized templates to glorify certian vandals. PoolGuy loved his template so much, he started tagging his own sockpuppets with it. This 'vandal' hasn't even edited, and that 3rd account doesn't appear to even exist right now. Kevin_b_er 23:52, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Yes, please deny recognition and avoid making any fuss over vandalism. - brenneman 23:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    Please see WP:BEANS. --Guinnog 00:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    Given this thread, most particularly the creator's agreement that the template in particular shouldn't be used, I've deleted it, and its redirect. The category was already deleted by Naconkantari. -Splash - tk 00:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    LOL! Quick, let's reward them with an LTA subpage! --Sam Blanning 00:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC) bitter? moi?

    Flooding of multiple articles with external link to technical slide bank

    User:Gfmer has added to about 60 multiple medical articles an external link to the "Geneva Foundation for Medical Education and Research". These links are to pages that contain no further information on the topic but are merely collection of pictures of patients and Xrays. There is no introduction to indicate what features are being shown or whether the images represent common or rare variations of a disease. Hence only a specialist will find the image of direct use, and even as a non-specialist GP many of the pictures seem mere curiosities and fail to add understanding about the conditions. So whilst teh website is a useful resource for a doctor looking for specialist images, it is inapprioproate material for the general readership and fails to give any additional describtion. Could an admin consider doing the bulk roll-back tool you have to these 60 odd pages ? David Ruben 23:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


    Warnings for anon-proxy, postblock.

    I figure this might be a good place to ask; is me trying to avoid a revert-war over the issue. When Tor proxies are blocked, should we just drop the warnings to history and leave the Tor notice? Also, considering the new blocking system, should we be using full or semi (anon-only) blocks? Scuse me if these have already been covered. --Avillia 00:21, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    User:Comanche cph

    Comanche cph (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    In the edit summary to this edit the user referred to a fellow editor as "fjeldape" which means mountain ape. This in it self is not good, but when you factor in that this is a nationalist derogatory term used in Denmark against Norwegians it becomes highly unaceptable. The reported editor is Danish and the editor which was labelled a mountain ape is Norwegian. The editor has been warned against personal attacks numerous times, but has removed many warnings from his talk page. He is presently blocked for 3RR violation, but a reaction for this violation would be in order as well.

    The user has been involved in a handful of articles now and the mode of operations seem not to improve. Frequent reverting sometimes just within the 3RR, sometimes braking it. A common trait is also personal attacks against editors disagreing with him.

    A third point is some of his random insulting edits such as and his entries of 17:42, 30 June 200621:32, 30 June 2006 and 13:49, 9 August 2006 to the Turkey article.

    He has been involved on this page on the following occasions before: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive120, Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive121, Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive122 and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive125.

    Sometimes administrators have given him warnings which he has broken without penalty and sometimes administrators have stated that penalties would increase if the mentioned behaviour continued, but that has not been followed through. He is frustrating and using up time for many editors and not showing any signs of improvement, but adminstrator involvement has been short. I fear that he will be alowed to go on just because of the narrow nature of the articles he is involved in.Inge 02:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


    User:AOL yada

    This is unusual. Does this raise any eyebrows? Tijuana Brass 03:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    I've blocked and deleted the template. Naconkantari 03:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    Yes, it would be a disaster to have a template that allowed us to know when a known dos vandal was creating collateral damage, no wonder you deleted it--205.188.116.65 03:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    Templates like these only encourage vandalism. Naconkantari 03:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    Then work the autoblock feature into the regular sockpuppet tag--205.188.116.65 03:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    Vandalism by Skull22

    Skull22 (talk · contribs) is moving from page to page and vandalizing. I'm trying to keep up with reverts until he gets blocked.Chidom   03:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    Vandalism, Holocaust Denial, etc.

    Looks like we have much vandalismsome of it on racially charged subjects—some Holocaust denial, etc. coming from 198.54.202.82 (talk · contribs). Could be a shared address and all, but there seems to be a lot of this sort of thing from this IP, and nothing I could see in 10 minutes or so of looking that was clearly not from the same user, although there are some harmless edits on white South African cultural topics, etc. Not sure if there is something here really worth any action, someone may want to look more closely.

    Also: do we have any policy about Holocaust Denial stuff on the talk pages of Holocaust-related articles? Do these talk pages unavoidably become, in effect, free hosting for this ugliness? - Jmabel | Talk 06:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    Recent Delete: There was an AfD dialog for Jayram Menon which resulted in a delete due to non-verifiability. The original AfD was initiated by an administrator was based the AfD on an erroneous premise on the number of hits that was got through a Google search. However the dispute remained on the verifiability. I am enclosing a scan of a press/news item that was featured in a leading newspaper in India that does acknowledge the notability and verifiability of the individual. (Verifyability for Jayram Menon]. Its upto the administrators to review the deletion and be fair. AshleyMiller 07:21, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    Possible sockpuppet - User:Francespeabody?

    User:216Cali may be a sockpuppet of User:Francespeabody, or the other way around. Contributions for 216Cali, and for Francespeabody. There is an RfC I see open in regards to the Franscispeabody account. They both linger in the exact same few articles, and the 216Cali account often seems to appear to defend Frances as their primary contribution. What made me suspect was this edit by Frances and what followed. Another editor reverts her, per the concensus we're reaching on the talk page. 216Cali then arrives to back Frances, with this edit, which features the summary of "Wow, FP, you were right, same ol' same censorship. I have updated the article and renamed the section in question to more accurately define why it is included". 216Cali also extensively defends Francespeabody as seen here. Another thing that makes me suspect a puppet connection is the fact that the 216Cali user did nothing at all on WP from 28 July 2006 until today, when people pointed out that Francespeabody would violate 3rr if she reverted once more--and the next edit is 216Cali doing the same edit again.


    The confusing bit is that the 216Cali account technically edited Condoleezza Rice first, so I'm not sure which would technically be considered the master. rootology (T) 07:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    Can You Help

    I was blocked all today for truing to be Neutral on Potter's House. I have written the reason for it a dozen times to deaf ears - long story see links (i.e. sore typing fingers), http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-08-07_The_Potter%27s_House

    I have tried everything - appealing to you guys was recommended on a page I saw.

    The people involved have bullied me before - but when I appealled to admins it got sorted.

    Can you help? Potters house 07:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    Request for help

    I hope this is the right place for this... Please could someone help me, I'm being attacked by User:OrangeGum. I've twice tried to remove his or her speculative, original research edit here. I can't talk to this user on his/her userpage as it has been locked. He/she keeps calling me a Nazi (see the edit summary here, this comment on my user page, and this, which I really found very upsetting). If anyone can unlock their talk page and try to help resolve this, I'd be very grateful! Thanks, Jenny Wong 08:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

    Calling a user a nazi completely unacceptable, but doing it at multiple times in different places is nothing short of malicious. I'm sorry this happend to you Jenny. An admin should be by soon. --mboverload@ 08:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
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