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The Dirty Dozen of Climate Change Denial

There is a "special report" from Mother Jones[http://www.motherjones.com/special-reports/2009/12/dirty-dozen-climate-change-denial ] titled "The Dirty Dozen of Climate Change Denial" that is being used as a source on multiple pages. It looks to me like an editorial opinion with no particular reason to give it any more weight than the hundreds of similar editorials on both sides of this politically charged issue. Is this a NPOV use of this source? --CypherPunkyBrewster (talk) 17:43, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

It is quoted/referenced in other RS quite a bit - see this article in the Atlantic, and the fact that some major academic works have referenced work by the same author (also published by mother jones) on the same topic. Some of that is listed towards the end of this discussion. So I don't think it can be ruled out as POV just because it's an editorial or just because it's mother jones - but whether or not it's appropriate probably depends on how specifically it's being used in the article (and which article we're talking about). Fyddlestix (talk) 18:03, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

It's certainly POV - but its use is contextualised and far from undue - but that's because it's talking about people who would qualify as WP:FRINGE. Koncorde (talk) 22:28, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I would call it a reliable opinion piece. It can certainly be used... but information taken from it should probably be presented as opinion (ie attributed). Blueboar (talk) 12:42, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

I would call it an opinion piece that engages in informal fallacy: specifically, argumentum ad ignorantium where the reader may or may not be a scientist who has read the relevant research and argumentum ad populum where the article makes reference to a consensus. Scientific method is more a concern with methods and results - not a consensus. The title use of the term "Dirty Dozen" or "Climate Denial" appears an attempt to poison the well by stigmatizing the twelve entities, listed in the article, as a pejorative - without presenting their arguments. Brett Gasper (talk) 22:29, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

WP:NPOV "means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." That's not been done. It took me only a minute of googling to find "pro" views on CFACT and Monckton, so the editor who put in Mother Jones (it was the same editor in almost every case) could easily have found other other significant views. Bias could have been avoided by ignoring Ms Jones's biased opinion, or proportionate representation could have been aided by including opposite biased opinion; neither of these things happened; this is not proper. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 16:55, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

The question is whether or not this is a reliable source for the context used. Let's see the context used in reference to this source, so we can accurately and objectively answer this question. Koncorde seems to think it is, but the rest of us have no idea. As long as it is attributed and referenced properly, I don't see why it can't be included to a certain extent. Mother Jones' opinion is not entirely irrelevant, but it shouldn't be given undue weight. Darknipples (talk) 21:15, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

When those "significant" views are WP:FRINGE this is not an equivalence. Looking at the two sources provided by yourself for instance we have an opinion piece by Pat Boone of all people on WorldNetDaily (I'm not aware of him holding a "significant viewpoint" to represent), meanwhile Delingpole is often cited in defence of Monckton (and criticised too). I'm not aware of either of them offering defences of Exxon, the API etc but if there are counterpoints to those then they can be included in the article. However it is not up to an editor of an article to neuter their edits through the chilling requirement of faux NPOV. Koncorde (talk) 21:44, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Peter, we entirely understand that you wish climate change denialists were supported by real science rather than being denialists. However, they aren't - and to fail to acknowledge that this is denialism would be an abrogation of core policy. Representing sources fairly and proportionately means that we are more inclusive to sources that discuss the mainstream view - and in a situation like this where most of the relevant authors, we are entitled to ignore the more obvious swivel-eyed loons (e.g. Monckton). Guy (Help!) 22:54, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Some of the uses fail WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, as it obviously (to all except a now-topic-banned editor) an opinion piece. And the question of whether it is a notable opinion should take into account whether MJ has other disputes with the named entities. If it were still notable if it read "an opinion piece in the ultra-left magazine Mother Jones stated that the ultra-right Heritage Foundation ...", then it is probably notable. "This discussion" above seems inconclusive. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:48, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

The source is perfectly reliable if we position the list as attributed to Mother Jones or to the article's author. If there are any uses of the source that fail WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV they should be corrected, but not deleted. The author analyzed various factors that seemed critical to climate change denial, and came up with this list. We have no place trying to quantify the author's analysis in order to knock it down. Binksternet (talk) 20:36, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Guy is making a false statement about my intent, an insult about a living person who is a subject of a BLP, and a baseless claim that "the mainstream view" has called these people and organizations denialists. No, they're being called that by someone at Mother Jones. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 00:33, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

I think this is the second time I have had to say this, while describing Moncton as a 'swivel-eyed loon' is generally uncivil, it is entirely accurate. If you wanted a more civil description of him 'A man whose opinions and thoughts have as much in common with reality as pink unicorns'. There is really no situation where Monckton is considered an authority or dissenting opinion on anything. It would be like citing David Icke on the advantages of Republicanism. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:05, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. For Peter Gulutzan to complain at being called on his long-term climate denialist apologia, while engaging in apologia for a climate denialist, is a fine irony. Monckton is a denialist, those whose ideology causes them to recoil from the implications of climate change need to get over this, think of a solution that is ideologically consonant, and become part of the solution rather than pretty much the whole of the problem. We only have one planet, and the icecaps are malting. Guy (Help!) 16:40, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Malting? Well we might get some better beer out of it... Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:16, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I have a couple of problems with the use of this source.

• Posting a reference to an opinion piece that links multiple persons and organizations could be considered guilt by association. We wouldn't include something like "Acme Corporation is on Bleeding Heart Liberal Magazine's list of Most Hated Organizations" if the list also contained the Nazi Party and The Association of Telemarketers And Robocallers.

• What evidence do we have that this ranking of individuals and organizations was objectively determined? What standards were used in determining inclusion or ranking?

• Where are the other reliable sources that reported this particular Mother Jones list? Why, of all the thousands of editorial opinions on this topic, are we giving this one obscure 2009 editorial such undue weight?

• The editor who inserted this into multiple Misplaced Pages articles has been topic banned from the articles, and so far roughly half of the near-identical additions have been removed by other editors.

Previous discussions: Talk:Christopher_Monckton,_3rd_Viscount_Monckton_of_Brenchley#Top_.22Promulagator_of_Disinformation.22, Talk:FreedomWorks#Climate_change_denial.-CypherPunkyBrewster (talk) 18:37, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Some of your questions have been answered elsewhere (as there are about 3 or 4 simultaneous noticeboard threads open about this source...) Regarding your second point, of course it's subjective. It doesn't pretend to be anything else. How could one objectively or quantitatively determine the twelve "worst" purveyors of climate disinformation? The source would be used (if it is used at all) subject to WP:RSOPINION, so in-text attribution makes clear that it is a subjective, opinionated source.

Regarding your second point, the list has been cited by authoritative sources (e.g. the Oxford Handbook of Climate Change), which is an argument for specific notability. Your last point has nothing to do with the merits of the source and is not really germane to discussion here. MastCell  18:48, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Just a comment on the reference of the source in the Oxford source. It mentions the article as one of several that claim right wing blogs were denying climate change. An article on quack medicine might quote a blog talking about alternative cancer cures. That doesn't mean they endorse the content of the blog. Anyway, I think this should be treated as an opinion article and cited as such. They hyperbole in the article should not be included unless it is clearly included as an opinion. Springee (talk) 20:13, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

"The folks at Mother Jones last fall offered a helpful list of 12 corporate climate-deniers, including FreedomWorks, the Koch-infused group. " says The Atlantic about the list. In this manner it should be treated as more than an opinion piece. It identifies climate deniers well enough for The Atlantic to say so. We need to be careful of other use of the source, such as the position in the list or the rhetoric about the individual entries. That said, the introduction in the article is more than opinion, as are the facts and discussions about them throughout the article. --Ronz (talk) 20:31, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

An involved administrator of our project, who is opposed to the use of Mother Jones (magazine) in our project, is systematically adding the red-link author name Josh Harkinson in-text, in addition to the attribution to Mother Jones (magazine), wherever this source is used, with the edit summary, "proper application of WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV." Is this a proper application of WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV? Does WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV require the author name in text? The source is a feature article, not a guest editorial. The source was subject to the editorial oversight of Mother Jones (magazine). The author name is available to curious readers in the well-formatted reference. The author name in-text is unnecessary and distracting to our readers WP:RF. In-text attribution to Mother Jones (magazine) is necessary and sufficient. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 18:10, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Such changes assume that there's consensus that the MJ article as used is a biased opinion piece. Such an assumption ignores the secondary sources, and seems to ignore the discussions to date--Ronz (talk) 19:26, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

You would need to show the list had achieved widespread attention in the literature about climate change denial. The FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitives list for example is so well known that articles on these fugitives should mention they are on it. This list shows no such attention. One editor has said the list has been cited in reliable sources, but the example merely says that the article was used as a source in a book, but the list itself was never mentioned. Instead the book used the article as a source for a person working for no. 6 on the list. TFD (talk) 20:30, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

"You would need to show the list had achieved widespread attention in the literature about climate change denial". Howso? --Ronz (talk) 21:07, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

We're not creating a separate article on the topic, so notability guidelines do not apply. --Ronz (talk) 15:07, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

"Notability" does not apply but "weight" does. Just because something can be sourced does not mean it belongs in an article. The source says for example that Sarah Palin has a Facebook page. I can find reliable sources for thousands of people who have Facebook page - that does not mean we should add thousands of new sections to Facebook. The way to show that the list had received attention in the literature about climate change denial would be to find a reliable source about climate change denial that mentioned the list. TFD (talk) 18:13, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

As we have two such sources, then it is due some weight, right? --Ronz (talk) 14:30, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

What do you mean we have two such sources? TFD (talk) 18:17, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Two sources have been previously discussed, but the opening of the RSN and NPOVN discussions didn't include them for some reason:

• What the Scopes Trial Teaches Us About Climate-Change Denial
• the Oxford Handbook of Climate Change

They're a bit lost in all the discussion. --Ronz (talk) 23:35, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

The first source, which is an op-ed and therefore fails rs, mentions the list but says nothing about it, while the second does not even mention the list at all, it merely uses that article for information about one of the people discussed. There is no reason for us to provide further prominence to the list than it has received in reliable sources - that is central to NPOV policy. TFD (talk) 02:06, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The Atlantic ref is an op-ed? Howso?

"Who are some of these groups? The folks at Mother Jones last fall offered a helpful list of 12 corporate climate-deniers, including FreedomWorks, the Koch-infused group. " Seems to demonstrate that the list, and being on the list, is due.

"about one of the people discussed" So it is reliable, and appears due. --Ronz (talk) 16:57, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The Atlantic article simply cites the MJ list as a list; it doesn't cite it for the prominence of the twelve as deniers. This is where I see a problem: I can perhaps see using MJ as an authority for the claim that so-and-so does deny climate change (in which case the actual sub-article on that organization needs to be cited instead), but I don't see how we should be endorsing MJ's ranking, which seems to be what we are doing. Mangoe (talk) 21:02, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

My impression is that this is an opinion piece of MJ. A reliable media source that comes up with its own opinion for who are the top members of a category. Kind of click-baity actually. Capitalismojo (talk) 21:29, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

The item in The Atlantic "What the Scopes Trial Teaches Us About Climate-Change Denial" is an op-ed written by an editor to tell us "what can happen when big business joins forces with religious faith." It is not reporting a news story, it is arguing an opinion. TFD (talk) 22:06, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Owen 'Alik Shahadah

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Biographies History and geography Media, the arts, and architecture Politics, government, and law Society, sports, and culture Religion and philosophy When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

An editor with a strong POV Some editors tried to pass Owen 'Alik Shahadah as a notable scholar and his websites as reliable. Spamming it across wikipages related with Africa and slavery. He seems to be connected as he stated in the summary of this edit and even acknowledges that is an advocacy page. This has been discussed in the Reliable sources noticeboard here and here. Rupert Loup (talk) 23:11, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• The articles in which Shahadah's pages were or are being used are Atlantic slave trade (and discussed in its talk page), Arab slave trade (and discussed in its talk page here and here), Slavery in contemporary Africa, Sonni Ali, African Renaissance, Maafa, West African Vodun, Black people (and discussed in its talk page), Takrur, Racism, Slavery in Africa, History of slavery, Sub-Saharan Africa (and discussed in its talk page), Slavery, Afro-Latin American, Ethnonym, Cheikh Anta Diop, Colored, Eurocentrism, Black orientalism, Runoko Rashidi, Subaltern (postcolonialism), Culture of Africa, African American, Slave name, LGBT rights in Africa, Philosophy, African-American names, Zulu people, Dendi Kingdom, Ghanaian name, Oromo people, Songhai Empire, Afrocentrism, Pan-Africanism, Slave Coast, Christian views on slavery, Blackface, Great Zimbabwe, Chancellor Williams, History of slavery in Asia, Muhammad al-Maghili, Eid al-Adha, Edward Wilmot Blyden, Libation, Walter Rodney, Culture of Ghana, Wodaabe, Shona people and Bethlehem (given name). Maybe there are more but this are the most controversial. Rupert Loup (talk) 13:15, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Am How am I doing that, I am deleting your attempts to silence a POV. Advocacy? How is that, what exactly is the page Advocating? That slavery was a crime against humanity? Come on, ADL is an advocacy page and so is My Jewish learning, do we delete them also? You are so random right now you are using any policy you can get your hands on and Praying (if you pray) that something sticks. But you just shooting at straws and should probably ask the question why this quest? Its not like anything being deleted is even controversial. Shahadah did win a lot of awards for work on Slavery including a UNESCO award, but you will explain that away. So that makes the opinion of some value.--Inayity (talk) 06:25, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

So desperate (We are here to learn about slavery in Africa and would like to include "advocacy" sites for anti-Slavery)is this how I agreed it was an advocacy page? So in English as I am sure in Spanish "advocacy" in quotes means I am referencing you. --Inayity (talk) 06:26, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Notable Scholar, those are your words. My are much simpler per WP:BIAS informed voices like AHS need to be included else who else you have now on Arab slave trade? So the deletion did not help the article did it.? The deletion of the BEST RESOURCE on the net on Arab slavery (with videos of Ali Mazrui and all kinds of audio etc are now gone. Great work for wikipedia.--Inayity (talk) 06:28, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Inayity is connected with Owen 'Alik Shahadah, see Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Owen 'Alik Shahadah, I already explained myself there. I discover that some user (not Inayity) had spammed Shahadah's pages across Misplaced Pages and I decided honor the consensus being WP:BOLD. But I entered in an edit warring with Inayity. We need to reach a definitive consensus about Shahadah and his pages. We already discussed this many times and we really need a closure about this. Is being spammed across all Misplaced Pages. Rupert Loup (talk) 13:10, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Looking at COIN I see no agreement that there is a conflict of interest. Both you and Inayity need to stop personalising this. Doug Weller (talk) 13:55, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Moreover, I don't agree with Rupert that this edit summary suggests a personal connection. The summary "restore notable opinion from someone that might know" seems to me to mean that Inayity simply believes that Shahadah knows about the subject, not that Inayity knows him. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:16, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Doug Weller sorry, maybe you are right, I lost my head due the personal attacks. I will try to assume good faith.

Cordless Larry Maybe you're right, English is not my first language and the warring and the ad hominems made me think the contrary. Rupert Loup (talk) 14:42, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Coming to this from Talk:Black people#Arabslavetrade.com, I haven't seen much evidence that Shahadah is a noted scholar (as opposed to a noted filmmaker), and from what I can tell, Arabslavetrade.com is self-published and therefore should be treated with caution as a source. Discussing gay rights, one of his other sites states "They have completely used every tool possible to defend and expand their homosexual ideology", so there is an obvious POV at work. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:52, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Other sister page was jewishslavetrade.info, now a subsection of africanholocaust.net acording to archive.org. This was discussed in the Atlantic slave trade's talk page, see above. Rupert Loup (talk) 14:42, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I found other three sisterpages, http://www.islamandafrica.com/, used in Takrur, Islam in Africa, Religion in Africa and Eid al-Adha, http://www.occupysouthafrica.com, used in Occupy South Africa, and http://www.africanmarriage.info, used in Wedding customs by country. Rupert Loup (talk) 16:16, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

• Notable as a filmmaker, not as a scholar. Should not be used as a source for history.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 18:08, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree: Not a good source--there are scores of scholarly studies available with more reliable analysis. Rjensen (talk) 02:09, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Rjensen. Simply not a credible academic source. His arguments on homosexuality in Africa sound polemical. Lacks credibility. Contaldo80 (talk) 07:40, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - alerted by bot - I agree he is notable as a filmmaker but there is no evidence he is an academic/scholar. I also don't agree with this AfD trying to delete his article, created by the same person arguing against him here. There's a pretty clear record his work has been influential based on the award nominations and wins, so it seems OP here is approaching it without a NPOV. —Мандичка 😜 00:51, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Мандичка His work is influential and is notable as a director for his films, I never said the contrary and that's because I didn't try to delete his film pages and remove it from the articles that are mention as a director or about his awards. And that's why I made this edition. But there is no notable sources of him to have an article, otherwise I wouldn't opened the AdF. Nevertheless there are sources to his movies and thats because they have articles. Also I'm want to know about what would be my POV, there where accusation that I have an agenda but without basis, so I'm really curious about that. Rupert Loup (talk) 01:24, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment -- called here by a bot. Spent some time learning about Shahadah, and reading some of the trail of this editing pattern, and it does look like promotional pushing of a source into many articles for undue reasons. In other words, inserting comments or quotes into many articles just to make the source (Shahadah) present there, not to improve the article. I cannot comment on whether Shahadah is a well respected scholar in the field or not, but cursory survey seems to show he's a notable film director but that this current wave of additions is promotional, not for the good of the encyclopedia. I looked at this article, for instance, and i see an edit war in the article edit history, and one comment by Rupert Loup in the talk page, and no discussion at all by the editor who shows the pattern of promotion of Shahadah. I say the promotional editing must stop. The subject is serious and must be treated with due respect, not used for promotion of one individual. SageRad (talk) 10:24, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

It seems that there is a fairly clear consensus that Shahadah should not be relied upon as a scholarly source. Is anyone willing to help look through these results and remove references to Shahadah's websites where appropriate? Pinging Rupert Loup, Inayity, Maunus, Rjensen, Contaldo80, Мандичка and SageRad. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:24, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Cordless Larry  Done Rupert Loup (talk) 21:07, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Attack on Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger at "List of People from Tucson, Arizona"

At List of people from Tucson, Arizona user "User:Onel5969" is reinserting a sentence alleging that Sanger was a "prominent eugenicist" without context, balance or any hint that this view is controversial, of little relvance to the page and is NOT an accepted consensus of WP or scholars and as such contravenes neutral point of view.

The entire mention of Sanger on that page, without the slander, is a single sentence long, so that his edits now make it look like Sanger is primarily known for her views about eugenics - which were moderate and unsurprising for a time when more extreme views were common among the intellectual and political classes - rather than the important fact that Sanger was the highly notable founder of the widely discussed organization Planned Parenthood.

Indeed, the lede of the Margaret Sanger page itself does not mention eugenics. This, to me, reeks of finding a more obscure page to exploit since the main Sanger page seems more actively defended. The obvious goal here is to use guilt by association to tarnish Planned Parenthood by attacking its founder.

Another point is that Sanger is the only individual on that list who's views are even mentioned. Everyone else just gets a short description of their occupation or achievements. See for yourself - . This seems like soapboxing on an inappropriate page.

Diffs:, ,

Guardthetruth (talk) 05:10, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Sanger is known for both facts. To leave one out is POV pushing. She was known for her views, in fact, looking at her article, over three quarters of the article is about her views, not her founding of PP. This also might not be the appropriate forum since you (or the ip on the page, uncertain whether either one of you is a sock of another), has not attempted to engage on the talk page first, and seek consensus. The object of my reverts is to revert a POV pushing editor who is making ip edits on the page, without engaging in consensus. Onel5969 05:23, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have to agree with Guardthetruth here. Sanger is primarily known for being a birth control advocate and the founder of planned parenthood, not for being a "eugenicist." Check out her ANB bio, which leads with "birth control advocate," mentioning Eugenics only briefly further down in the body of the article. The National Women's History Museum leads with "proponent for the availability of birth control and contraceptives and their use by women." Most general reference works say "birth control advocate." "Eugenicist" does not belong here - Obviously it shouldn't be relied on as a source anyway, but incidentally, our article on her has its own major NPOV problems, which have been discussed at length on the talk page. Fyddlestix (talk) 05:40, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

(Thank you Fyddlestix). I am not a sock, I've edited with that IP for a long time without incident, I make no bones of thät, and I have no agenda on Misplaced Pages. I just drift around randomly and fix little things here and there, like a dozer. Which is calm and pleasant until the fraggles show up...

I do notice that you have thousands of edits on that page. I have somewhat less.If anyone has an agenda here, it's not me, Onel5969. Or maybe it's WP:OWN. Guardthetruth (talk) 08:11, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

First, that's a perspective, Fyddlestix, not a fact. I am not saying that the statement should or should not stay, simply that it's removal should be discussed on the talk page. When the term was first removed it was with the edit summary, "Remove slander". This is clearly incorrect, since Sanger was a proponent of eugenics. That's not a question of perspective, simply a statement of fact, well documented. The next two times it was reverted it was without comment. The ip/GTT never attempted to engage in discussion, never attempted to build consensus. Per WP:BRD, the change needs to be discussed on the talk page and consensus reached. I would ask Fyddlestix to self-revert, and open the discussion on the list's talk page. Personally, I don't care if the fact that she was a eugenicist remains or not. The way it was done was incorrect, which was why there were reverts.

Second, the definition of sock puppetry is "The use of multiple Misplaced Pages user accounts for an improper purpose is called sock puppetry". It goes on to define improper use as "Improper purposes include attempts to deceive or mislead other editors...". When a discussion on an article is being held by a user as an ip, and then a question about that action is brought forth by that ip's registered account, that could be construed as an attempt to deceive, by making it look like more than one editor agrees with that position.

Third, I am not sure where you're coming up with "thousands of edits", I have about 3 dozen, for the most part format fixes, adding names and citations to the list. The agenda I have is to make an attempt to follow the policies and guidelines of Misplaced Pages. I am attempting to AGF, but some of your actions are making that difficult, including your uncivil (name calling) behavior.

Fourth, I'll address the point that GTT brings up in the below comment. When there is an ip making disruptive edits with incorrect or blank edit summaries on a page, and it appears that an edit war might develop, I ask for page protection. Plain and simple.

Regardless, I'd like to see some consensus building on the article's talk page, which is where the discussion should be taking place. Take it easy. Onel5969 14:17, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

See WP:FALSEBALANCE and WP:UNDUE. Aspects of a subject are included according to their coverage in the body of literature on the subject. Whether it's "slander" is irrelevant. What matters is whether it makes sense within Misplaced Pages's content policies. When you need a short summary of what a person is "known for", we go with what the reliable secondary sources say. — Rhododendrites \\ 20:54, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

I should've dug deeper before jumping in above. So here's what actually happened: An IP removed the eugenecist part of the Sanger line with edit summary "remove slander" (was that you, Guardthetruth?), Onel5969 undid saying it's not slander, then the IP edit warred over it without, as far as I can tell, any further communication until Guardthetruth opened this thread. This was the case of someone making a poor argument, not communicating, and edit warring, and someone else trying to protect the page. This noticeboard should come after discussing the issue with the other user and/or on the talk page, not when you don't get your way through edit warring. Procedurally, One15969 did nothing wrong here. I disagree about the content, but there's absolutely no reason why this thread should remain open when the matter hasn't even been discussed on the talk page. — Rhododendrites \\ 21:10, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

I just stated that IP was me above. Do you have reading difficulties? There is no reason to discuss an obvious violation of npov on the talkpage.Guardthetruth (talk) 11:21, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Rhododendrites. btw, hope you don't mind but I corrected my username spelling above in your comment, to remove the redlink. Onel5969 21:20, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Onel5969 secretly moves for semi-protection, gaming system

See .

He goes right behind our backs to ask for semi-protection without informing admins of the ongoing content dispute. This is just gmaing the system. Guardthetruth (talk) 08:17, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

It's hard to claim anything is being done "secretly" or "behind our backs" on Misplaced Pages. You edit warred over a change you did not effectively argue for. That's not how things work. Protection is premature, but I don't think there's anything unreasonable about considering a protection request when you see someone come in, claim "slander", and start edit warring. Before you come to a noticeboard, talk with the user and bring it up on the talk page. Don't WP:EDITWAR. There's no gaming the system going on. I agree with the removal of the text (as above), but there's no need to continue this thread. Next time this happens, keep it focused on the content for as long as you can before making the dispute about the editor. — Rhododendrites \\ 21:15, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Then why are there so many policies that require users to be informed when issues related to them come before a noticeboard? Misplaced Pages is huge and people go behind each other's backs all the time. That's why those policies exist. Do some research about this place before you waste my time again. Guardthetruth (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:14, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Filing a WP:RFPP is not gaming the system. Nor is it going "behind anyone's back" (as you so quaintly put it) since the request can be seen by everyone. When an edit war is taking place an RFPP is recommended as one of the ways to get it to stop. Additionally there is no requirement that anyone be informed when an RFPP is filed. There merest moment or two of research will confirm this. Since you feel that editors go behind each others backs "all the time" it is worth noting that Misplaced Pages is not compulsory. MarnetteD|Talk 16:34, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Ariel Fernandez

This is to report the lack of compliance with the Neutral Point of View (NPOV) policy in the BLP article Ariel Fernandez. The matter has not been resolved in the BLP notice board and has been brought up previously here. An entire paragraph with six references in the section “career” (which consists of only two paragraphs!) has been devoted to the questioning of papers by Ariel Fernandez as if they were noteworthy events in and of themselves, which is not something supported by reliable sources. The paragraph has negative implications, as pointed repeatedly by various editors, including Minor4th, Rubiscous and several others. No breach of ethics has ever been mentioned, let along proven, in regards to the subject. Thus, the paragraph is not providing useful information on the subject’s career or to Misplaced Pages. It should be mentioned that the subject has published over 350 professional papers, two books as the sole author and holds two patents, according to his online CV, and multiple secondary sources therein. Yet 50% of the discussion of his career in Misplaced Pages focuses on two papers questioned and his single retraction where no breach of ethics was involved. We may conclude that the Misplaced Pages BLP is not neutral and that the contents further reveal a nefarious intent to harm the subject. The libel has been repeatedly inserted as indicated in the following diffs, possibly pointing to a hatred driven attack on the subject:

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ariel_Fernandez&diff=681893308&oldid=681661402 https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ariel_Fernandez&diff=682581574&oldid=682001397 https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ariel_Fernandez&diff=686246039&oldid=686186985 https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ariel_Fernandez&diff=686248672&oldid=686247309

Thanks much for your prompt attention. 181.228.138.187 (talk) 20:50, 20 October 2015 (UTC)Argentine Natl. Research Council

That's pretty over the top. Two points of context: 1) there's no reason to believe that this IP editor is in fact posting from the "Argentine Natl. Research Council"; it's likely instead that this is a sock of Arifer. And 2) there's no "hatred driven attack", rather a straightforward consulting of reliable sources that cover this subject. I'd suggest that there's a problem of forum shopping here -- but in fact I don't mind terribly that it's been brought to NPOVN, where there's an appreciation that whitewashing at the request of article subjects is not the way NPOV works. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:43, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I do think the article could use some work, and the questioned articles do occupy a place of undue prominence in this biography. I would encourage editors who have time to look for additional biographical information about this person - certainly the guy is not only notable for three articles that have been questioned. If that's the only real biographical infornation about him in reliable sources, then maybe the article should be prodded for deletion.

Misplaced Pages does have a history and a policy of hearing concerns from article subjects, and the IP is at least bringing the issues to the proper notice boards - rather than edit warring. Minor4th 00:47, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

The IP editor gets no credit for not edit-warring -- because the article is indefinitely semi-protected (as a consequence of previous misbehaviour). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 05:15, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

I didnt realize that. I did not look too far into the history of the article. I suggest the IP take some time to gather sources and make proposed edits on the article talk page. I will keep an eye out for proposed edits and work with the IP in improving the article - I just dont have the time or interest to do the research myself. Minor4th 17:11, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Dear Minor4th, as per your advice and in an effort to get a balanced neutral description of the career of BLP subject Ariel Fernandez, we have included in the Talk page a proposed revised version with appropriate secondary sources for the Career section in the BLP. We most appreciate your help with the editing to ensure that the article complies with the neutral point of view. Our proposed version includes reputable secondary sources.

200.49.228.32 (talk) 15:11, 22 October 2015 (UTC)Argentine Natl. Research Council

Nomoskedasticity, please stop abusing us and deprecating Dr. Ariel Fernandez. Dr. Ariel Fernandez has done more than writing 3 questioned papers. According to the public records, he has published at least 350 papers, wrote two books and holds two patents. As numerous editors have indicated, the BLP on the subject is not in compliance with the neutrality tone that must prevail at Misplaced Pages. Please stop your hate-driven attack on the subject! The National Research Council of Argentina has regional centers throughout the country and Dr. Fernandez, who resides in Basel (Schweiz), is probably unaware that you are defaming him by abusing the Misplaced Pages platform. He certainly has the right to defend himself but has not done so as far as we can tell. We don´t owe you any explanation, yet we feel we need to tell you to please stop attacking everybody who stands up for Dr. Fernandez.190.97.61.112 (talk) 15:57, 21 October 2015 (UTC)Argentine Natl. Research Council

Sex offender registries in the United States

Sex offender registries in the United States has serious advocacy issues and appears to have been written primarily to provide a soapbox for changes in the law. The editor that started and has been the primary author is an admitted SPA who has made few edits outside this platform. The article needs massive adjustment to conform with NPOV or if that is not possible should be deleted if policy continues to be violated and the article persists in being hopelessly biased.--MONGO 11:08, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

That article contains 178 notes of this writing, most of which are citations of reliable sources which support positions taken in the article. If there are other reliable sources taking issue with those which are cited, then the first step is to cite them and take issue within the article with its allegedly non-neutral positions.

The article also cites (in sidebar, primarily) three national and five state organizations, all of which have WP articles and all of which are calling for changes in sex offender laws.

It is correct that the main editor is a SPA. However he or she is not a U.S. citizen or resident (s/he's Finnish) which makes the case for personal bias harder to demonstrate.

I have removed the NPOV label as I do not see that Mongo has provided meaningful justification for its application. deisenbe (talk) 15:02, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

The article is a one-sided advocacy piece that was created purely to soapbox on behalf of changes to sex offender legislation. Until sufficient neutral editors chime in to determine if changes are needed, you cannot as one of the editors unilaterally remove an NPOV tag.--MONGO 16:13, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

These other articles, the three national an five state organizations, have articles because the primary author also wrote those. They themselves might need to be deleted due to a lack of notability. There may need to be a topic ban added should this SPA and his cohorts continue to misuse this website for their promotional POV agenda.--MONGO 16:17, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

This is true. I wrote those, although I only included two most notable in the article as I thought not all of them needed to be included. The rest were added by Deisenbe. I'll go ahead and ping all the editors I know of having shown any interest on these topics in the past (mainly here): ScrapIronIV, DHeyward, Tom harrison, Flyer22, Etamni, Cityside, Kevjonesin, Lucutious,James Cantor, Ivanvector, Herostratus, Epeefleche, FourViolas. Note: MONGO, ScrapIronIV, DHeyward, Tom harrison on one side, and I and James Cantor on the other were involved in dispute related to Adam Walsh Act article as anyone may verify from the link above. It got somewhat personal at times (e.g. , and ). I personally believe hard feelings, rather than legitimate concerns of neutrality, might play major part in this NPOV notification. After all the article cites 44 peer reviewed studies, one book compiling topic specific studies, two reports by Human Rights Watch + handful of studies by government entities. The rest of the refs are news, including few editorials and links to government pages supporting the content. Relevant discussion related to our last dispute can be found from Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_49#Sex_offender_and_Adam_Walsh_Act. I was looking to have this article nominated as Good Article at some point where it would be put under scrutiny. Since I'm not expecting much attention from un-involved editors to this NPOV and possible future AfD, I'm afraid that I and Deisenbe will be railroaded by MONGO and his allies from Adam Walsh Act incidence. That happened in AWA case: me and James Cantor got eventually tired of trying as these four kept pushing their side while numerous un-involved editors merely passed by dropping their opinion (all of them siding with me and James BTW) but never really engaged in the discussion. Hopefully, unlike the last time the discussion revolves more around the content of the article rather than the fact that I'm currently pretty much SPA. ViperFace (talk) 20:38, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

In other words, at the Adam Walsh page your efforts were rebuked so you created a POV fork as a new place to misuse the website for the purposes of advocacy.--MONGO 21:18, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

No they were not, I just got tired like James Cantor did. Numerous un-involved editors told you and your gang to back down, but you didn't. I have pinged all of them. I and James were chased out from the AWA article by your personal attacks and persistent unwillingness to seek consensus. I have also posted RfC since I want more editors contributing to this article. This far only 4 or so have made good contributions and no NPOV issues has been raised by those editors. You on the other hand, with no editing history on this article just happened to bump into it and wanted to pick a fight immediately. Unless I can't find enough good faith editors to watch this article you and your buddies will attempt to introduce false parity by removing sourced material as you can't block it by reverting anymore as you did in AWA. This article is split from sex offender registry as the U.S. section covered more than half of it. This is how it was after the split. Anyone may compare the first draft and current article and decide for them selves how much I have POV-pushed in any other way than raising the number of peer reviewed citations from 6 to 44 which you so much would like to have excluded of these articles. It's too late now. I am not interested in chatting with you MONGO. I rather wait for others to comment so please do not respond to this post. ViperFace (talk) 00:33, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

My "gang"...oh you must mean the MONGO-bots...Yeah...that's it. Look, I'm sure from your perspective you're trying to do the right thing, but it seems to me that you have a serious conflict of interest that is interfering with your ability to edit neutrally and dispassionately in this controversial subject matter. The fact that your edits have no other focus also raises alarm bells.--MONGO 02:30, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

By gang I meant those who I felt were acting counter-consensus back then. Thank you for assuming good faith. You are right, I am trying to make this article as good as possible. Due to my POV other editors are needed to ensure neutrality. This is a controversial subject and we need to get this right. Unfortunately not much interest has been given to this article. Now that the article is there, could you point to some paragraphs that need to be changed to be more neutral and I'll try to take care of it. I already made an attempt to improve the paragraph pointed out by Herostratus. ViperFace (talk) 04:46, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Well that's a non sequitur. My field of expertise is Misplaced Pages editing so I guess you all can defer to me...

Of course the article is not neutral. The I don't know whether it can be fixed or not, but for goodness sakes don't remove the tag. I don't know if it can be fixed because it's a difficult subject to discuss because what you have is, not so so much people with a fundamental disagreement about a particular law, but about the nature and purpose of laws in a democracy in general -- which is not an easy thing for people to talk about and end up shaking hands on. The question of to what extent "the public strongly supports it" versus "most experts support it" is the best basis for making laws is too complicated to hash out here. Since we can't agree, let's just keep the article short and descriptive and, to the extent reasonable, stick to anodyne facts ("law was passed on such-and-such date") that we can all agree on.

So that's why "While sections of the public strongly support , many experts... characterize them as ineffective and wasteful at best, and counterproductive at worst...", even tho probably true I guess, still does not belong in the lede and let's not do stuff like that, people. That's just one example and there're other instances where the general tenor is "look! these laws suck!" Maybe they do suck -- in fact, I think in their current form that they do suck, but my opinion on that matter has zero do with what I think should be in Misplaced Pages legal articles -- but let's let the reader come to her own conclusions, ok?

The law is a crude instrument. Get used to it, people. Life isn't fair. Many if not most laws suck. Many if not most laws let some offenders slip through while catching up some innocents. Earth is not heaven. Let's just stick to the facts. Herostratus (talk) 01:26, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree the piece you raised up does not necessarily belong to the lede, maybe it should be in overview in a more neutral tone. This piece was added by Deisenbe, not me (just in case someone wants to accuse me of pushing it to front). How would you change the tone more neutral? What I have tried to do is to describe what sex offender registries in the U.S. are, where they came from, what restrictions comes with registration, how it affects people, how effective the laws are; what general populace, legislators, scholars and other stakeholders think of it; how courts have handled challenges and what law scholars think of that. I think that's what Misplaced Pages editors are expected to do. I'm not trying to introduce my personal opinion on this subject, it comes through the RS and it is hard to balance as there is not much academic RS in support of current registries to balance with. As far as I know there is RS in support how the registries were in early 1990's or how they currently are in 2 or 3 states, but this article is about current laws as a whole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ViperFace (talk • contribs) 13:07, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - After glancing briefly at this article's content and history, I'm inclined to agree with MONGO's assessment. Sadly, this type of single-purpose account soap boxing behavior is all too common WP. We lack good mechanisms to deal with it. To be frank, I think an immediate topic ban for ViperFace wouldn't be unwarranted here. This article covers a highly sensitive topic, and to have it turned into an advocacy piece really threatens the integrity of WP as a whole. NickCT (talk) 13:06, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Note: Steps have already been taken to achieve more neutral tone by me and user DHeyward who was quite heavy handed but I also agree with his removals. MONGO actually thanked me twice for my attempts to seek neutrality. ViperFace (talk) 13:23, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Continued move towards neutrality gains points.--MONGO 16:14, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

@ViperFace and MONGO: - Ok. Well if Viper is genuinely looking to reform, we should try to aid him in that process. NickCT (talk) 16:38, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Please do. Like I have said, I have strong personal POV on these matters but I also want to write neutral encyclopedia. Now that I have taken more closer look it seems that this NPOV notice was warranted. ViperFace (talk) 16:47, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

5 (UTC)

@ViperFace and MONGO: - Ok. Well if Viper is genuinely looking to reform, we should try to aid him in that process. NickCT (talk) 16:38, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

This issue is mainly the article. I'm concerned that trimming may be insufficient. It is clear ViperFace has a POV and critical analysis of existing laws is fine, but as you mentioned, soapboxing is not. A topic ban would essentially be a site ban since this is their primary focus.--MONGO 17:56, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

The whole article? Aren't most of the sections merely describing the reality as it is? At least 6 first sections are merely describing the history and different components of the legislation as they are. I don't know what you think of the "Impact" and sections following it, but that's what peer reviewed RS has to say about these subjects. Critical analysis is hard to balance with positive accounts as I can't find any other than general opinions of registries being "a useful tool". That's honestly all there is. This article can't be in 50%-50% balance with positive and negative accounts. Consensus among scholars is clear, they are critical to current registries. The only positive findings are already included in "Effectiveness". I deliberately put them on front of the section. What is currently missing is the rationale behind this legislation, which originally was keeping tab on sexually violent predators and habitual offenders, of which none of the scholars seem to have nothing to complain about. ViperFace (talk) 20:02, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

The article needs to remove all the commentary throughout the history. Arguments for/against registries is out of place. that debate happens in legislatures. This article isn't the place to discuss how or if they work or whether they are effective. All that advocacy material needs to go. --DHeyward (talk) 23:18, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. What particular parts of this article you consider as commentary? Where in this article arguments for/against is taking place? Please, give me a copy/paste example and I'll do my best to make it more neutral. At this moment RS supporting current legislation seems to be lacking. I'd be more than happy to include such RS when provided. ViperFace (talk) 03:28, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

There is such a thing as carrying an argument too far. Laws generally take a long time to be enacted, perhaps longer to be amended and even longer if ever to be repealed. Using Misplaced Pages as a platform for the amend and or repeal options is advocacy and is a violation of policy. I'd be more inclined this article could be saved if it previously had a history that was.more neutral...but since its new and this is where its at, even with the most recent alterations, I'm inclined to think the article should not exist. I'd recommend a move back to its original starting point before you split it off. None of these studies conducted indicate that the percentage of inconvenienced registrants that "do not deserve this penalty" can be quantified. The studies cite a few examples but all seem to fail to give us solid percentages, instead only citing small numbers as grounds for saying 'bad law'. Laws supposedly protect the law abiding from the law breakers and inevitably some people will end up being excessively penalized inadvertently.--MONGO 10:08, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm trying to make the article more neutral. If the quotes must go in order to make it more neutral I'm ok with it (DHeyward probably meant this), altough, at least, the Wetterling critique is kind of notable as she was the person who initiated the first federal legislation. The article does not try to quantify the number of "wrongly" or too "harshly" "punished" (officially registration isn't a punishment). I can't imagine how anyone could even construct such a number objectively as drawing a line after which life-long registration is ok, say, to age difference, would be arbitrary. I'm sure there are estimates of the percentage of sexually violent predators which I guess is somewhere between 5-20%, the rest of the registrants are something else (not saying that all of them should not be registered). You really think that the whole article should be deleted?? Honestly, would you propose this to be deleted had this been written primarily by someone else than me? I do understand that my username is pretty stigmatized, but that should not mean that all of my edits are garbage. To me it sound like ad hominem argument against otherwise relevant subject that warrants its own article. I wish more editors were involved, but not many are willing to touch this subject other than correcting my typos. They don't want to became "that sex offender editor". ViperFace (talk) 12:10, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty frustrated as not many seem to be interested providing comments. I propose we do this: I'll try to make this article "complete", which would mean (to me) improving "Public notification" -section, checking what was lost after DHeyward pared and adding relevant parts (if there is any) to appropriate sections, and splitting "state court rulings" into their own article page. After this I would nominate the article to be peer reviewed. I propose we do this in honest way, assuming good faith and without unnecessarily poisoning the well or trying to influence the opinion of the reviewers in any other way, maybe even removing NPOV tag for the time of peer review process. After all this should be about the quality of the article, not my editing history or my POV on these matters. I don't believe that any of us are able to be completely neutral. This NPOV notice is already somewhat poisoned as it started the way it started. We need truly neutral editors to determine what should be done. Tell me what you think of this proposal? PS. I have removed all but two of the reform groups from the sidebar template as it gave them way too much weight. I did not add them in the first place, BTW. ViperFace (talk) 13:36, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

I haven't begun to trim. I just removed the blatant violations from a few sections and ViperFace restored some of it. A complete review would eliminate about 70-85% of the article as speculation or POV. --DHeyward (talk) 02:45, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Hence my rationale that until neutrality can be achieved, this is better off not being a stand alone article.--MONGO 04:31, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

@DHeyward I almost entirely agree with removal you did. Eg. the lede is currently identical to how it was initially written by me. Much of POVish material was added by one or two other editors, although many of the sections written solely by me did, in fact, contain POVish expressions, which I have tried to pare off. The whole article has much more neutral tone now. To my knowledge I have not restored anything you removed other than the image of Zach Anderson. The text under the image is not necessarily neutral. I'll fix it right after this post. ViperFace (talk) 14:51, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

I apologize for the late reply here; my current schedule has kept me away from Misplaced Pages more than I would like this past month. When I signed in today, I found that I had been pinged to this conversation way up above someplace, and feel compelled to comment about this situation. This topic has been of interest to me for some time, but I don't normally do more on this subject beyond minor copy editing. (I did suggest a merge with some other articles but there was no consensus and I closed that discussion -- the removal of the merge-templates were probably my most major edits to the article.) In general, I am interested in subjects related to disproportionate treatment of certain populations within the US, especially within the criminal justice system. This includes, but is not limited to, the treatment of those labeled as "sex offenders" by society.

As ViperFace started editing this and other related articles, I was concerned that the sources might not have been legit or balanced, but I've found that with only two exceptions, every link I've checked has gone to sources that meet the definition of WP:RS, and I've been unable to find any counter-examples that are anything other than "opinion pieces" where non-expert commentators basically say that they approve of sex offender registries. On my user page, since well before this discussion started, has been a userbox link to Okrent's law, which states that the pursuit of balance can create imbalance because sometimes something is true. (Imagine if the suggestion that an article cannot contain any POV were applied to the article on The Holocaust.) Seriously, nearly every section of WP:NPOV supports the work that has been done with this article. The suggestion that ViperFace should be topic-banned is ludicrous; we need more editors who will dedicate themselves to improving the articles here. Etamni | ✉ | ✓  08:20, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I guess I'm ludicrous then because I think ViperFace, a single purpose account, should be topic banned. If the laws are so bad, why are they not only virtually unchanged but in most cases, they have been strengthened. A few states have contested some federal guidelines but not a single state has ceased using registries.--MONGO 08:44, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

The article makes an attempt to discuss why amendments are not happening, altough I removed the quote of one legislators. If "the Wetterling- critique" was allowed, it would also discuss why the laws are often strenghtened. Sex offenders as a group are frowned upon by the public as they associate the word "sex offender" with rapists and child molesters. Any move to further punish such people gains points to legislators. The problem is: the laws target every offense that has an sexual element and even some that don't. I have not found a single piece of RS arguing that registries should go away entirely, but virtually all RS says they should not target those who are not considered dangerous. This critical view is overwhelming in peer reviewed RS. ViperFace (talk) 14:57, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

There is such as thing as losing the argument because you take the argument too far. The article even with my updates and trimming reads like an apology piece on behalf of sex offenders. Of course there is going to be negative fallout from some laws, but the incidence of recidivism has declined BECAUSE of the registries...prior to their implementation, the recidivism rates were four times those for released prisoners that had been incarcerated for none sex related crimes. You're only telling the story you want to promote...that is a violation of NPOV.--MONGO 01:36, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

"the incidence of recidivism has declined BECAUSE of the registries..." This is nothing more than your personal opinion. Pretty much all RS says that registries do not seem to have noticeable effect on recidivism. A few studies have found some effect, and these studies were included in the article before you removed the whole Effectiveness- section because you don't like what the RS says. Everything you have removed recently was well supported by multiple high end reliable sources. ViperFace (talk) 19:07, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

By sources, you mean from biased sources. Explain why recurrence is significantly lower now than before the laws and registries were implemented. In the late 80's and early 90s the recividism rate was four times greater than for non sex crime parolees. You apparently did not look at my efforts to bring NPOV to the article. You've been deliberately cherry picking sources to promote your agenda.--MONGO 22:51, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

The source articles have been published in peer revieved scientific journals. Even studies by government entities find similar results. The whole Academia seems to be biased to you. The RS also says that sexual crime trends started to decline well before any registration laws were passed. It declined along with the general crime trend. Talking about cherry picking, you added findings of study by Dr. Gene Abel. This study is a survey on a small sub group of sexual offenders that are known to pose considerably higher risk of recidivism than all sexual offenders as category. It's a survey on sexual predators or preferential child molesters who molested "pre-pubescent boys outside the home". Unlike the sources you removed, it is not a statistical analysis on all those who have been ever convicted of any crime involving any sexual element or even some crimes that don't but still require registration. Although I don't dispute the findings of that study (some scholars do BTW, the methodology can be seen as questionable), you are giving undue weight to a one study that was studying sexual predators (who are the correct target group for these laws) to push a POV that people who piss on the street, take nude selfies, have sex on the beach, "cop a feel" or have consensual teenage sex would pose an equal risk of attacking "young boys outside the home". Sex offender ≠ sexual predator. Furthermore, you cite a paper that is not a peer reviewed study. It is a paper by National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. The current president of the said organization, Patty Wetterling, is one of the most vocal critics of current registration laws. She's biased, right? ViperFace (talk) 13:11, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

This Gene Abel?? Ssscienccce (talk) 08:16, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

So one editor is adding pseudo-science sources, and calling for the opposing editor to be topic banned.

And I see he adds things like: but based on studies regarding recidivism of such crimes which, based on a 1994 report, was four times greater than recidivism for those convicted and sentenced for non-sexual related offenses.

Claiming that recidivism rates for the two groups are compared, while the source compares the sex offenses committed by both groups. Ssscienccce (talk) 08:58, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Fish Pain Page

Just a heads up a NPOV notice has been reinstated for the fish pain page https://en.wikipedia.org/Pain_in_fish, as the notice was removed by one user , however based on my reading of the wikipedia guidelines the NPOV template should only be removed whenever any one of the following is true: 1. There is consensus on the talk page or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved. 2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given. 3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

As none of these criteria have been met, the notice stays until we get the page sorted out. I will work through the points raised in the Talk section in == getting the balance right in instances with no scientific concensus == one by one and hope that contributors have a good grasp of the scientific literature on this subject - please read the actual papers cited, do not rely on newspaper articles, raw citation data or the like. Professor Pelagic (talk) 02:36, 24 October 2015 (UTC

Hi Prof Pelagic. Thanks for taking this on.DrChrissy 11:59, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Second Opinion Requested

Would it be possible for someone to weigh-in on this DYK nomination? The nom is not satisfied with a part of my review; out of a preponderance of caution and concern my opinion may be incorrect, I would like a second opinion. This doesn't require someone to undertake an entire DYK review, just to confirm or reject a WP:PROMOTION concern I had. Thanks. LavaBaron (talk) 00:58, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Second Opinion Requested

Could I get a quick set of eyes on Template:Did you know nominations/Nancy Cruickshank? You don't need to conduct a full DYK review, I just want someone to confirm or reject my belief that the DYK hook is too WP:PROMOTIONAL. I'm not entirely confident in my own determination, as it's probably on the line, and would appreciate input from a second editor. LavaBaron (talk) 06:57, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

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