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Revision as of 04:14, 14 August 2006

Dembski ground-breaking? please. I'll try and sort the POV out. Dunc|☺ 14:53, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Excluding mainstream research

Can you prove that? If so I don't mind it being in there but without a source it is POVish while the original wording of the sentence was more neutral. Thanks. Falphin 23:35, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

It's an easily verified fact, not POV. The best source being their own journal, PCID . That the journal has yet to publish any significant mainstream research that contradicts ID is easily fact-checked by simply reading their volumes. The same holds true of their archives . They state their bias up front: "Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design (PCID) is a quarterly, cross-disciplinary, online journal that investigates complex systems apart from external programmatic constraints like materialism, naturalism, or reductionism". In other words, they implement their own systemic bias while obliquely accusing mainstream science of having it's own. FeloniousMonk 07:03, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk - you must show evidence for "excluding the preponderance of mainstream research being conducted that contradicts intelligent design." It is not a stated position of the ISCID journal. WIKI policy is for only verifiable evidence. To demonstrate this, you must show that at least one such article was submitted and that it was rejected. Because no one submitted such an article does not prove "excluding mainstream research." Furthermore, "Mainstream research" begs the question since it presumes methodological naturalism and a priori excludes looking for intelligent design. You cannot find intelligent causation if you a priori exclude it. e.g., forensics experts investigating a fire do not a priori assume no person was involved and only look for natural causes. To investigate for arson, they must assume that intelligent causation may be a possibility and examine evidence for/against it. Intelligent design models and examines empirical evidence for intelligent causation in curret, historical and origins research. I agree with Falphin in quering this phrase. I recommend that it be deleted as POV non-sequetor without verifiable evidence.DLH 19:39, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's what ID proponents say. But since they are the ones making the assertions the burden of proof is on them to substantiate their claims. Preferably by using neutral (non pro-ID), credible sources, which we have yet to see. FeloniousMonk 05:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposed changes

ISCID states that it investigates complex systems, discusses complex systems in its forum, accepts into its archive articles on all aspects of complex systems, publishes papers on complex systems in PCID, and hosts chats about topics related to complex systems. I propose adding "investigates complex systems" to the introduction. I also propose replacing

Critics in the scientific community say that intelligent design proponents have set up their own journals with "peer review" which lack impartiality and rigor, and point to ISCID's journal Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design as such an example, since reviewers in the PCID journal consist entirely of intelligent design supporters.

with

Critics say that intelligent-design proponents have set up their own journals with a weak standard of "peer review", and point to ISCID's journal Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design as an example, since reviewers in PCID consist almost exclusively of intelligent-design supporters.

The critics we cite are a philosophy professor, a law professor, the editor of a Web site, and a genomics researcher. Only the last of these is obviously a practicing scientist, so "in the scientific community" seems misleading. The replacement paragraph also follows the sources more closely: "weak standard" and "almost exclusively" are quotes. Tim Smith 11:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm reminded of Immanual Kant's comments about justification of truth, written in 1800 but equally applicable today.

• "Truth is said to consist in the agreement of knowledge with the object. According to this mere verbal definition, then, my knowledge, in order to be true, must agree with the object. Now, I can only compare the object with my knowledge by this means, namely, by taking knowledge of it. My knowledge, then, is to be verified by itself, which is far from being sufficient for truth. For as the object is external to me, and the knowledge is in me, I can only judge whether my knowledge of the object agrees with my knowledge of the object. Such a circle in explanation was called by the ancients Diallelos. And the logicians were accused of this fallacy by the sceptics, who remarked that this account of truth was as if a man before a judicial tribunal should make a statement, and appeal in support of it to a witness whom no one knows, but who defends his own credibility by saying that the man who had called him as a witness is an honourable man." From Introduction to Logic.

Kenosis 23:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Did you have a specific comment? Tim Smith 02:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I had hoped not to need one, but here is a more specific comment. The evidence is that the PCID reviewers consist entirely of ID supporters. It the language indicating the specific sources of this evidence needs to be corrected, I have no objection. ... Kenosis 05:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll reword it to quote the sources exactly. Tim Smith 21:08, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I see the light a bit better now. Well, if the editor(s) here prefer(s) to cherrypick the sources, I suppose that would lead to a different result, wouldn't it? ... which leads us right back to Kant quote again, I suppose. ... Kenosis 22:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see new sources for "entirely". Where are they? I tried quoting our sources exactly, but was reverted. Tim Smith 03:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the recent edits, I encourage everyone to engage in discussion here. Please do not revert uncontroversial changes; the last revert reintroduced a comma splice and a typo I've had to fix twice now. Because my last edit was reverted wholesale, typo fix and all, I don't know which changes are actually controversial, and which were reversed blindly. Please restore any changes you support and discuss the rest here. Tim Smith 03:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Moderator: Regarding the "Regarding the recent edits..." comment above, I too enourage genuine talk page discussion. One might start by fixing the obvious typos. (Translation 1: "Pardon me while I fix this typo... and while I'm at it I may as well throw in my own POVs throughout the entire article". Translation 2: "Ohhh, pooor me; I've had to fix that darn thing twice now, and every time I try to rewrite the whole article someone reverts me".) Fixing the typo and comma splice requires two or three keystrokes. I ran my spellchecker-- it must be broken because I couldn't find any misspelled words. In any event the convention in WP, as I understand it, is if one has typos to fix, one fixes them and identifies the maneuver accordingly in the edit summary. ... Kenosis 04:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)