| Revision as of 03:58, 18 December 2015 editThewolfchild (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers51,893 edits →Continued discussion of opposed vote by SuperCarnivore591← Previous edit | Revision as of 04:00, 18 December 2015 edit undoKnowledgekid87 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers96,775 edits →Continued discussion of opposed vote by SuperCarnivore591: HatNext edit → | ||
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| == Continued discussion of opposed vote by ] == | == Continued discussion of opposed vote by ] == | ||
| {{hat|result=SuperCarnivore591 was given a 12 hr block, lets all move on now.}} | |||
| #'''Oppose''' You know, they say the past is etched in stone, but it isn't. It's smoke, trapped in a closed room, swirling, changing, buffeted by the passing of years and wishful thinking. But even though our perception of it changes, one thing remains constant: the past can never be completely erased, it lingers, like the scent of burning wood. As such, I cannot support someone for adminship who is clearly using a fresh start account and not being upfront about it. That is all. ] (]) 20:45, 17 December 2015 (UTC) | #'''Oppose''' You know, they say the past is etched in stone, but it isn't. It's smoke, trapped in a closed room, swirling, changing, buffeted by the passing of years and wishful thinking. But even though our perception of it changes, one thing remains constant: the past can never be completely erased, it lingers, like the scent of burning wood. As such, I cannot support someone for adminship who is clearly using a fresh start account and not being upfront about it. That is all. ] (]) 20:45, 17 December 2015 (UTC) | ||
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| I have reported this user to ANI. It is acceptable to remove an obvious troll's vote per ]. '''] <sup>]</sup>''' 03:44, 18 December 2015 (UTC) | I have reported this user to ANI. It is acceptable to remove an obvious troll's vote per ]. '''] <sup>]</sup>''' 03:44, 18 December 2015 (UTC) | ||
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Revision as of 04:00, 18 December 2015
 | This is an RfA talk page.
While voting and most discussion should occur on the main RfA page, sometimes discussions stray off-topic or otherwise clutter that page. The RfA talk page serves to unclutter the main RfA page by hosting discussions that are not related to the candidacy.
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Editing stats
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General statistics User ID: 20800274 User groups: filemover, reviewer, rollbacker, user, autoconfirmed First edit: Feb 17, 2014, 11:17 AM Latest edit: Dec 14, 2015, 11:14 PM Live edits: 22,281 Deleted edits: 2,298 Total edits: 24,579 Edits in the past 24 hours: 25 Edits in the past 7 days: 317 Edits in the past 30 days: 1,225 Edits in the past 365 days: 8,631 Ø number of edits per day: 37 Live edits: Unique pages edited: 15,601 Pages created: 2,831 Pages moved: 461 Ø edits per page: 1.4 Ø change per page (bytes): extended Files uploaded: 4 Files uploaded (Commons): 75 (Semi-)automated edits: 14,077 Reverted edits: 39 Edits with summary: 22,163 Number of minor edits (tagged): 8,453 Number of edits (<20 bytes): extended Number of edits (>1000 bytes): extended Actions: Thank: 225 x Approve: 354 x Patrol: 658 x Admin actions Block: 0 x Protect: 1 x Delete: 0 x Import: 0 x Article: (Re)blocked: 0 x Longest block: – Current block: – SUL editcounter (approximate): latest ► enwiki 23,664 +2 minutes commonswiki 883 +23 hours wikidatawiki 319 > 30 days metawiki 47 +14 days mediawikiwiki 6 > 30 days dewiki 4 > 30 days nowiki 3 > 30 days nlwiki 3 > 30 days plwiki 3 > 30 days frwiki 3 > 30 days enwikibooks 3 > 30 days 183 others 13 > 30 days Total edits 24,951 Namespace Totals Article 11,870 53.3% Talk 279 1.3% User 1,616 7.3% User talk 5,763 25.9% Misplaced Pages 1,348 6% Misplaced Pages talk 220 1% File 825 3.7% File talk 101 0.5% Template 137 0.6% Template talk 45 0.2% Help 1 0% Category 23 0.1% Category talk 6 0% Portal 3 0% Book 1 0% Draft 42 0.2% Draft talk 1 0% Year counts 2014 14,179 2015 8,102 Time card Timecard Latest edit (global) - Edits in the past 30 days, max. 10 / Wiki Date ↓ Wiki ↓ Page title ↓ Comment ↓ 2015-12-14, 23:14 enwiki :BethNaught Replies 2015-12-14, 22:26 enwiki Larsemann Hills Fix typo 2015-12-14, 22:24 enwiki Timeline of the presidency of Barack Obama (2015) /* September */ fix typo 2015-12-14, 22:22 enwiki 2014 American raid in Libya Fix typo 2015-12-14, 22:21 enwiki Houston, Texas Proposition 1, 2015 /* Reaction */ fix typo 2015-12-14, 22:20 enwiki Equality Act of 2015 /* Support */ fix typo 2015-12-14, 22:19 enwiki Gilmore Guys /* Season 5 */ fix typo 2015-12-14, 22:18 enwiki Dave Sharma /* Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet */ fix typo 2015-12-14, 22:17 enwiki Assistant Secretary of State for Diplomatic Security Fix typo 2015-12-14, 22:16 enwiki Katia Sycara /* Awards and Recognitions */ fix typo 2015-12-13, 23:21 commonswiki :Quality images candidates/Archives November 04 2015 ]: [[File:Brtish Museum July 2015-2... 2015-12-13, 23:21 commonswiki :Alvesgaspar/Places/United Kingdom ]: [[File:Brtish Museum July 2015-2... 2015-12-13, 23:21 commonswiki :Quality images/Subject/Architecture/Public Buildings ]: [[File:Brtish Museum July 2015-2... 2015-12-13, 23:21 commonswiki :Alvesgaspar ]: [[File:Brtish Museum July 2015-2... 2015-12-13, 23:21 commonswiki :British Museum July 2015-2b.jpg BethNaught moved page [[File:Brtish Museum July 2015-2b.j... 2015-12-13, 23:21 commonswiki :Brtish Museum July 2015-2b.jpg BethNaught moved page [[File:Brtish Museum July 2015-2b.j... 2015-12-11, 20:40 commonswiki :Medscrib Notification about multiple possible copyright violations. 2015-12-11, 20:28 commonswiki :Cool syed ] has been nominated for dele... 2015-12-11, 20:28 commonswiki :Deletion requests/2015/12/11 Listing [[Commons:Deletion requests/File:Raza Naqvi Wahi.... 2015-12-11, 20:28 commonswiki :Deletion requests/File:Raza Naqvi Wahi.jpg Starting deletion request 2015-11-30, 17:45 metawiki 2015 Community Wishlist Survey/Editing /* Votes */ s 2015-11-30, 17:43 metawiki 2015 Community Wishlist Survey/Bots and gadgets /* Migrate dead links to Wayback Machine */ s 2015-11-30, 17:42 metawiki 2015 Community Wishlist Survey/Special pages /* Improve Special:Log */ s 2015-11-30, 17:41 metawiki 2015 Community Wishlist Survey/Multimedia /* Votes */ s Month counts 2014-02 393 2014-03 1,866 2014-04 3,219 2014-05 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Category:Suzanne Collins 1 Category:Unbuilt buildings and structures in Australia 1 Category:Unbuilt buildings and structures in France 1 Category:Unbuilt buildings and structures in Panama 1 Category:New Zealand criminals 1 Category:American pies 1 Category:Walloon people 1 Category:Municipal corporations in Andhra Pradesh 1 Category:Visitor attractions in Vijayawada Category talk 1 Category talk:Unbuilt buildings and structures in Australia 1 Category talk:Unbuilt buildings and structures in France 1 Category talk:Unbuilt buildings and structures in Panama 1 Category talk:Suicides by jumping in the Philippines 1 Category talk:Visitor attractions in Krishna district 1 Category talk:Municipal corporations in Andhra Pradesh Portal 1 Portal:Pokémon/Templates 1 Portal:X-ray astronomy/Intro 1 Portal:Arts/Featured article/30 Book 1 Book:Bob Dylan Draft 3 Draft:James Compton House 3 Draft:Chairman (President) of the People's Republic of Bulgaria 2 Draft:Susan Margaret Watkins 2 Draft:Kenneth Earl Medrano 2 Draft:Kingsley Ben-Adir 2 Draft:Leah Jaye 2 Draft:CHRISTINI All Wheel Drive Motorcycles 2 Draft:Marc Vidal 2 Draft:National Oilheat Research Alliance (NORA) 2 Draft:University College of Engineering (Kerala) 2 Draft:Sarah Sharp 2 Draft:Android Braille Slate 2 Draft:Howellsville, North Carolina 1 Draft:Karysse Trandem 1 Draft:Odes (The Flowers Of Hell album) Draft talk 1 Draft talk:Chairman (President) of the People's Republic of Bulgaria (Semi-)automated edits (approximate) 6,185 Twinkle 4,911 Huggle 2,426 AutoWikiBrowser 494 Articles For Creation tool 40 STiki 21 Igloo 0 HotCat 0 NPWatcher 0 WPCleaner 0 Popups 0 FurMe |
- These stats say I have made one protection. This must be a bug; obviously I have no ability to protect pages at the moment. BethNaught (talk) 23:24, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- My bad: I once moved a protected page, so I have a log entry for migrating the protection settings. BethNaught (talk) 23:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- I'm shocked, shocked, to find this user abusing their power before they even have any. Have they no sense of decency?!? Drmies (talk) 00:15, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
- Permit me a LOL. Irondome (talk) 00:46, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
RfA policy RfC Closed
| The RFC has been reopened so this is moot Spartaz 09:26, 15 December 2015 (UTC) |
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This RfC has been closed and the following changes will go into effect, effective immediately:
If there is a problem with my close, please let me know. I thought I would post this here, since this change now applies to this RfA as well.—Merry Christmas:Unknown 08:41, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
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Continued discussion of opposed vote by Andrew D.
| There's no need to stress the candidate by continuing to discuss the candidate's gender identity. Esquivalience 21:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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as Beth Naught rather than Beth Zero suggest UK rather than US. Concerning your reading of Beth as Liz, may be it's about you, may be it's the ultimate key when reading 
Pure bad faith opposition?
| Suboptimal heat:light Spartaz 09:27, 15 December 2015 (UTC) |
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Is Andrew Davidson asking for a checkuser to be conducted here, or simply assuming bad faith and tacitly accusing BethNaught of being a liar? Either way, that !vote needs clarification in order to resolve it without leaving a bigoted stain on this otherwise flawless request for adminship. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:38, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Adminship is not "for life" as people say. How many people have been desysoped compared to how many have taken the bit to their grave. I suspect that the living ex-admins well outnumber the post-living ones. HighInBC 03:29, 15 December 2015 (UTC) |
Continued discussion of neutral vote by Carrite
| Nothing productive coming from this. Staberinde (talk) 19:13, 15 December 2015 (UTC) |
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Continued discussion of Optional RfA candidate poll
- Comment The way this discussion is going seems to suggest that Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Optional RfA candidate poll worked as intended in this case - namely, by encouraging a good candidate to go for it. --MelanieN (talk) 19:20, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- I was going to remark to that effect too. I think we may be able to expect one or two more RfA's in the coming months as well thanks to WP:ORCP and some discussions there... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:08, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about that. The primary value of that page is to deter individuals whose candidacies would fail not to put themselves forward, thus improving the "success rate" statistics and giving the illusion of a higher candidate success ratio. I don't think it really has much to do with candidates succeeding; those who succeed would have succeeded whether or not they had played the "What do the RFA gatekeepers think?" game. Indeed, I suspect it's deterring candidates who may well have succeeded but averaged only 7/10 on a handful of comments, making it seem that success is unlikely. On the other hand, the candidate poll does reduce the likelihood that an editor will put themselves forward at RFA only to be sorely disappointed, so it does serve a useful purpose in that sense. Risker (talk) 04:42, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
- No, I think MelanieN has it right – an ORCP candidate who gets 9/10's across the board, as BethNaught did, might be more encouraged to run for RfA than they otherwise would have been. So not only can ORCP serve to "weed out" WP:NOTNOW candidates (and we've seen at least half a dozen of those at ORCP already...), but it may also encourage editors to run in RfA's who really didn't intend to and only throw their names up at ORCP "on a lark" and are pleasantly surprised at the assessment of their RfA chances... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:42, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
- How will we know? Both make sensible points. A positive response at ORCP may encourage a reluctant candidate, but a lukewarm response at ORCP may equally put off a good candidate. ORCP will encourage more of the sort of candidates that ORCP participants think ought to be running & would succeed at RfA. The issue is that ORCP may not be representative of all RfA participants (in the same way that frankly I don't think RfA participants reflect the expectations of candidates held by the wider community). WJBscribe (talk) 12:11, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
- Frankly, if a candidate as good as BethNaught comes to the conclusion that the route to a successful RFA is getting an 8/10 or 9/10 when pre-screened by the tiny number of editors who participate in the candidate poll, then we've failed to solve any problems and have created new barriers for good candidates. I can already see the reason for opposing: "Did not go through candidate poll before initiating RFA." Anyone who's been around here long enough already knows this is inevitable. Risker (talk) 03:32, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- I would say more people are going to leap if they can look before they leap and see that they don't land anywhere too bad. As for people opposing for not taking an optional poll, I would hope the 'crats would give such a vote very little weight.
- If someone does vote in such a way then several people will respond saying it is a poor vote, it will get moved to this talk page, the opposer will say something about "badgering" then it will get hatted. Such people will just make up another reason to oppose if this reason is not available, I think it is more about the attention for them. Some people like badger. HighInBC 15:31, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- No, I think MelanieN has it right – an ORCP candidate who gets 9/10's across the board, as BethNaught did, might be more encouraged to run for RfA than they otherwise would have been. So not only can ORCP serve to "weed out" WP:NOTNOW candidates (and we've seen at least half a dozen of those at ORCP already...), but it may also encourage editors to run in RfA's who really didn't intend to and only throw their names up at ORCP "on a lark" and are pleasantly surprised at the assessment of their RfA chances... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:42, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
Continued comment by Softlavender
- Comment: While I agree that gender is and should be completely immaterial for RfA (and for normal editing by non-admins), if this candidate is elected, I very strongly encourage them to choose a gender and stick to it. For several reasons: Admins are expected to be transparent and easily accessible, and hiding or deliberately obfuscating one's gender while using a screen-name that is assumed to be female is excessively confusing and non-transparent. This is confusing both to experienced editors and also most particularly to newcomers. Asking the community at large to refer to an admin as "they", "them", "their" is unfair, in my opinion, particularly as admin actions are frequently discussed, and because "they" and its constructions are plural pronouns, and thus very confusing and often misleading, and because newcomers, who are the people admins mainly have to deal with, should not be put through that communication difficulty. None of this would matter if the user were not running for RfA, but since they are, they need to conform to a higher standard of accessibility and transparency, in the same way that difficult or improperly linked signatures (or sometimes even usernames) are of little consequence in non-admins, but in admins need to be fixed for accessibility. Softlavender (talk) 07:30, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Without wishing to stir up further drama that would have died down on the TP but for a couple of overly excited Admins who decided to throw petrol on the embers, I disagree. BethNaught will probably be referred to as "she" most of they time. If they are happy with that we have no good reason to dictate that they should reveal anything. Leaky Caldron 07:45, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Well if BethNaught is fine being referred to as "she" if this RfA is successful, then that settles that. And I never required anyone to reveal anything; I requested that they choose a gender so that the community, especially newcomers, are not forced to refer to an admin as "they" which is a plural pronoun and thus too misleading and confusing. If English had a genderless third-person singular pronoun for a person, that would work, but it doesn't. Softlavender (talk) 07:56, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Newcomers? You're worried about newcomers? Newcomers can't even tell who the Admin is or even what they do. In fact, I'd say the only group that despises newbs more than Misplaced Pages might be video gamers. --MurderByDeletionism 15:27, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Softlavender, the English language (and subset dialects) do have a genderless, third-person, singular pronoun: it is called Singular they. Seriously, it only requires some basic changes in how people phrase sentences but it is a simple thing. At any rate, what if BethNaught is transgender or feels outside the binary gender system? Then they may prefer to not use either "he" or "she" because of personal reasons related to their IRL life. Honestly, way too much drama for a simple request to keep personal information off the Wikis - regardless of editor level. I'd put a vote of confidence but I doubt it would make much difference at this point and I am lazy. Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 08:10, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Singular they is used for unnamed nonspecific generic persons and single members of generic groups of persons. We are talking about a specific person here. If the candidate, if this RfA is successful, is going to require people to call him or her "they", I don't personally think that is fair, wise, or suitable, although it would to my mind be perfectly acceptible for a non-admin to request that. Again, if in the absence of further information BethNaught is OK with people naturally referring to him/her as "she", then all is well. If the candidate is adamantly not OK with that, s/he might want to switch usernames to something that does not begin with a female given name if this RfA is successful. Softlavender (talk) 08:38, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Well if BethNaught is fine being referred to as "she" if this RfA is successful, then that settles that. And I never required anyone to reveal anything; I requested that they choose a gender so that the community, especially newcomers, are not forced to refer to an admin as "they" which is a plural pronoun and thus too misleading and confusing. If English had a genderless third-person singular pronoun for a person, that would work, but it doesn't. Softlavender (talk) 07:56, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- And there are those of us who don't care at all whether someone addresses them as "he" or "she" or "they" or whatever. I (like many others) choose not to disclose my gender on Misplaced Pages (just like most of my personal information, apart from my country and language), and live with the (not really problematic) consequence of being adressed with the wrong gender sometimes. The only "requirement" we should make is that if one doesn't indicate a gender, one shouldn't complain when being addressed incorrectly as he or she. Apart from that, leave well alone and focus on important things. Fram (talk) 08:47, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
I'm sure BethNaught realizes that they are - and will continue to be - assumed to be female from their username and likely to be addressed as "she", and don't think they have expressed any problem with this. They have disclosed that their gender may or may not be female, which doesn't strike me as particularly problematic given that usernames are, after all, pseudonyms. I seem to remember that admins/bureaucrats Deskana and Cecropia were often mistakenly assumed to be female, presumably because their usernames ended in "a". I don't think it caused any issues.
If I put a notice on my talkpage saying that I would prefer to be referred to with the singular "they" than as "he", would I need to resign as an administrator? I can see a problem if I started to fly off the handle every time someone referred to with "he", but otherwise does it really matter?
As a final point, we might want to pause and reflect about how editors who are not cisgendered might be reading these discussions. Whilst I'm sure everyone means well (and a lot of the points are about confusion potential not trying to impose a requirement to self-identify gender), we're risking looking very unfriendly to people who have difficulty fitting themselves into binary gender classifications. WJBscribe (talk) 10:44, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Just a comment from an old fashioned person, just from reading Beth's page, it's not that Beth doesn't identify a gender due to a transgender issue, but it's due to a safety/security/privacy issue. In the English language, when the gender is not known, the neutral gender term is used. That is he. It might be unfortunate, or politically incorrect but English doesn't have a true gender neutral term. It would be different if someone were a transsexual and requests to be identified as a specific gender. In this case, I think Beth just realize that having a "female" screen name will most likely get female pronouns. Sir Joseph 15:04, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- As I think my comment made clear, I was concerned about how this discussion would read to an editor who isn't cisgendered - not necessarily BethNaught.
Such a person shouldn't be left thinking that they would have to disclose their status in order to "justify" not being addressed by a particular gender. Indeed, they may have difficulty identifying with either gender, or identify with both. The idea that such personal issues about a candidate might be explored - very publicly - at RfA is bound to be off-putting to some... WJBscribe (talk) 18:01, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- As I think my comment made clear, I was concerned about how this discussion would read to an editor who isn't cisgendered - not necessarily BethNaught.
Continued discussion of support vote by Davey2010
| Until now I wasn't even aware of the gender thing but anyway nothing productive will come out of this discussion so I'm collapsing it. –Davey2010 15:11, 17 December 2015 (UTC) |
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Support - As I said here I actually thought she was already an admin so was rather surprised to see she wasn't, Quite honestly I couldn't think of anyone better to be an admin!. Obviously great candidate, No issues, Good luck :) –Davey2010 20:41, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
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Continued discussion of opposed vote by SuperCarnivore591
| SuperCarnivore591 was given a 12 hr block, lets all move on now. |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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@Davidcannon: - Did you even bother to read this thread? It has nothing to do with the so-called 'gender issue'. And it's not "ridiculous". I see nothing wrong with calling SC591 on his silly and pretentious hyperbole and asking him to support his accusations or strike them. If this page bothers you sooo much, feel free to ignore it. - WOLFchild 03:10, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
I have reported this user to ANI. It is acceptable to remove an obvious troll's vote per WP:IAR. Esquivalience 03:44, 18 December 2015 (UTC) |