Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:26, 18 January 2016

Template:Vital article

Former countries B‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Ukraine B‑class High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ukraine on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Fair use rationale for Image:Cossack hetmanate.jpg

Image:Cossack hetmanate.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Misplaced Pages article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Misplaced Pages:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 13:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Automatic Translation?

What on earth do the following two paragraphs mean:

After many successful military campaigns against the Poles,  Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky made a triumphant entry into Kiev 
on Christmas 1648 where he was hailed liberator of the people from Polish captivity. 
In February 1649, during negotiations in Pereiaslav with a Polish delegation, Khmelnytsky had made it clear to the Poles 
that he was the sole autocrat of Rus', positioning himself as the whole leader of all Ukraine.

There the state-building process began where Khmelnytsky's statesmanship was demonstrated in all areas of state-building: 
in the military, administration, finance, economics, and culture. With political acumen, he invested the Zaporozhian Host 
under the leadership of its hetman with supreme power in the new Ukrainian state, and he unified all the spheres of 
Ukrainian society under his authority. This would involve building a government system and a developed military and civilian
administrators out of Cossack officers and Ukrainian nobles, as well as the establishment of an elite within the Cossack 
Hetman state.

There - where? Referring to what? What is Hetman that repeatedly occurs here. Is that his first name or maybe his nationality? Somehow, "liberator of the people from Polish captivity", doesn't sound good, but my English is not good enough to come up with a better sentence. "... the sole autocrat of Rus'"? "positioning himself as the whole leader"?

Granted, on second read, I do understand that Hetman is a nationality, but make that clear somewhere. (All wiki references to Hetman return to this article (The Cossack Hetmanate). Actually I'm not sure. Is it?

How about something like: ..."clearly stated to the Polish delegation, which he met on Christmas 1648, that he saw himself as the sole ruler of the Ukrainian state. He then proceeded to establish his rule, by setting about changes in all fields of government: In the military, in administration, finance, economy and culture. He cleverly supported Hetman(...points to nationality of Hetmans) rule of the Zaporozhian Host, a region in central Ukrain. This bought his rule broad acceptance throughout all the diverse regions and nationalities in the Ukrain. He established a new government system, which included the creation of a new upper class of administrators and military commanders, from his Cossack army, and from the historic local Ukranian nobility. -- Thanks! פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 23:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh boy! OK, I read a bit more, and now understand what a Hetman is. IMHO there should be a wikilink to at least the first and probably to all three references in the article. The article is still unreadable, and seems to be an automatic translation. Anyway, a great reference (for whoever decides to redo these pages) is this book: Ukrain A History by Orest Sutelny. It seems written well. פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 00:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Guess what! In Bohdan Khmelnitsky it says:

At Christmas 1648, Khmelnytsky made a triumphant entry into Kyiv, where he was hailed as "the Moses, savior, redeemer, 
and liberator of the people from Polish captivity ... the illustrious ruler of Rus." In February 1649, during negotiations in
Pereiaslav with a Polish delegation headed by senator Adam Kysil, Khmelnytsky declared that he was 
  "the sole autocrat of Rus" and that he had "enough power in Ukraine, Podilia, and Volhynia ... 
in his land and principality stretching as far as Lviv, Chełm, and Halych." It became clear to the Polish envoys that
Khmelnytsky had positioned himself not just as a leader of the Zaporozhian Cossacks, but of Ukraine, and stated his claims 
to the heritage of the Rus. A Vilnius panegyric in Khmelnytsky's honor (1650–1651) explained it this way: 
  "While in Poland it is King Jan II Casimir Vasa, in Rus it is Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky."

After the period of initial military successes the state-building process began. His leadership was demonstrated in all areas 
of state-building: in the military, administration, finance, economics, and culture. With political acumen he made the Zaporozhian
Host under the leadership of its hetman the supreme power in the new Ukrainian state, and unified all the spheres of Ukrainian 
society under his authority. Khmelnytsky built a new government system and developed military and civilian administration.

This whole subpage is translated there into good and normal English!

פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 03:01, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

something is broken

"Herb Viyska Zaporozkogo (Alex K).svg →"--FifthCylon (talk) 07:17, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

successor state arrow is broken

Could someone please fix that?--FifthCylon (talk) 15:12, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

File:Ukrainian Cossack state Zaporizhian Host 1649 1653.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Ukrainian Cossack state Zaporizhian Host 1649 1653.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests February 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Misplaced Pages (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 21:14, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Antihistoric statements

Excuse me, but as a history student I can not accept this article because of many antihistoric statements about "State creation" and "State existing". It's only modern modern ukrainian vission, links are from pro-ukrainian internet pages. Look discussion in Russian Talk about this article. It must be fully reviewed and fixed according professional historians statements, who analyzed the history of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Chmelnicki Uprising. Now thsi artical seems as falsification of history. --86.100.205.18 (talk) 14:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Rename article suggestion

Per Magocsi (citation added to intro), "The name Hetmanate, especially in Russian sources, referred to Cossack regiments in Left-bank Ukraine that were under of the authority of Moscow's hetman, from 1667 onward. This excludes both Zaporizha and Sloboda Ukraine" (paraphrasing). In his work, he refers to the state as the Cossack state, since it covers all attempted unified cossack statehood (and also that the cossack state only existed in the Hetmanate from 1711 onward). He says the official names were Zaporizhian Host and Army of Zaporizha.

Since this article almost entirely relies on Magocsi's work, we should use the name he suggests. As it stands, 'Hetmanate' is like calling the UK just Scotland.--Львівське (говорити) 08:53, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Wrong. What an ignorant claim. The entire state, not only a small part of it, is referred to as "Hetamante" (Гетьманщина) by multiple historians other than your source. For example, Mytsyk, Bazhan, and Vlasov refer to it as "Hetmanshchyna (Гетьманщина) here: . Lev Okinshevych, Arkadii Zhukovsky from the Encyclopedia of Ukraine call the country "Hetman State": . Oleksandr Saltovskiy refer to it as "Ukrainian state-Hetmanate" (Українська держава-Гетьманщина), "Hetman state" (гетьманська держава), and simply Hetmanate (Гетьманщина). He also says that the Hetmanate covered both sides of the Dnipro from Khmelnytsky until Doroshenko. Valeriy Smoliy call the country "Ukrainian Cossack State", "Zaporizhyan Host", and "Hetmanate" (pg 14) here: . I can still easily find more sources. --BoguSlav 07:58, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Little Russia etc.

The Hetmanate is not (was not) called "Little Russia". Little Russia and the Hetmanate are two separate historical concepts. The Hetman of the Ukrainian Cossacks didn't call himself the "Hetman of Little Russia". If you think they are the same thing, perhaps you should propose a merge between both articles, but you can't simply equate the Hetmanate to Little Russia because of your political opinions. These edits be only explained as Russification because they do not enhance the content of the article.--BoguSlav 00:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. This concept is ludicrous. This is some sort of bizarre attempt to conflate the history of the Hetmanate with the politics of the Russian Empire after the razing of Sich, hence turning the Hetmanate into some sort of offshoot of Little Russia. Information for the content of the article is being turned into a strange amalgam of the later Russian Empire and the history of the Hetmanate. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:06, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

It is typical ignorance in the history. The term Little Russia was used by Ivan Vyshenskyi and Archimandrite Zacharius Kopystensky. This term was an official name of Hetmanate in briefs of Bohdan Hmelnytsky. That's why existed Little Russia Prikase and then Collegium of Little Russia. If you don't know about it, how could you speak about the History of Hetmanate at all? Ушкуйник (talk) 00:07, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Of course the term "Little Russia" was known and possibly used by Ukrainians from the Hetmanate. That doesn't make the Hetmanate and "Little Russia" to be the same thing! That's why we have two separate articles here on wikipedia. But above all, how about a WP:SOURCE for all your claims?--BoguSlav 04:43, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Dear all (BoguSlav, and Iryna Harpy), firstly, there is a difference between Hetmanate, Zaporizhian Host and Little Russia. Hetmanate - is a historiographical term, you will not find this term in historical documents from 17. till 18. Century. The term was created to make clear the sense of Hetman's power. Zaporizhian Host and Little Russia are on the opposide side historical names of Hetmanate. Sure there is a difference between Hetmanate and Little Russia, because the term Little Russia means NOT ONLY Hetmanate, but also church Toponym (like Great Russia too) etc. But it means not, that you may ignore this name of Hetmanate just because there is a multiple-meaning of Little Russia, or even if you don't like this name of the territory of Dnieper-banks. It was an official name of Hetmanate in Tsardom of Russia and Russian Empire. The same history is with Zaporizhian Host - it means Hetmanate, but not only Hetmanate, because Zaporizhian Host not always submitted to Hetman.

Secondly, there is a historical difference between right-bank Hetmanate and left-bank Hetmanate. So it is just not correct to speak about Vassal status of Hetmanate only in context of Tsardom of Russia. After Treaty of Andrusovo right-bank Hetmanate existed as Vassal of Poland.

Thirdly, Ruthenian and Ukrainian language is not the same thing, another way we should come to conclusion, that Belarusian and Ukrainian is the same language too, but it is not true. They both - Belarusian and Ukrainian - have roots in Ruthenian language. So it is not correct to speak about official role of Ukrainian language in Hetmanate, it was Ruthenian language.

Best wishes, Ушкуйник (talk) 14:49, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

So - no reliable sources for all these claims?Faustian (talk) 17:40, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually, you just need to read about it the sources, which you have deleted, especially Paul Robert Magocsi and Яковенко Н. Нарис історії України з найдавніших часів до кінця ХVІІІ ст, if you can read in Ukrainian. I didn't know, that it is so new information, that Belarusian and Ukrainian languages have roots in Ruthenian. Maybe there is also some new information, that right-bank Hetmanate was under Poland and that Hetman post was abolished in Poland in 1686? Is it not clear, that Little Russian prikaz could exist only in case of using the term Little Russia as Synonym for Hetmanate? Also, it looks like you just don't have any arguments to protect your own position. Ушкуйник (talk) 00:53, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Still no reliable sources to back up changes to consensus version.Faustian (talk) 01:40, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Every time I go through your sources and your arguments for changing content, I keep coming back to the same conclusion, Ушкуйник: that you've been very busy on various articles using your own interpretation (known as original research) and cherry picking information to fit your own theories (known as WP:POV). Considering your specific interests, as is evidenced by your special contributions, I can only understand your presence on English Misplaced Pages to be as an SPA focussing on historical subject matter to contrive an All-Russian nation rendering of Eastern Slavic history. In fact, I checked it's German Misplaced Pages counterpart – "Dreieiniges russisches Volk" – out of interest, only to discover that you've been dabbling with that article only to have your additional content rejected (no one there is impressed with your 'left bank'/'right bank' arguments, either). What that adds up to is WP:NOTHERE. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:53, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Dear Iryna Harpy, actually, my remark in German Misplaced Pages was about Ivan Vyshenskyi and Archimandrite Zacharius Kopystensky, not about 'left bank'/'right bank' arguments, after that I have found this information in text. We can speak about All-Russian nation, but it doesn't have any matter in context of our discussion. You just try to ignore all arguments, to find some another subject of discussion. I would be appreciate, if you will speak in this discussion about the History of Hetmanate. Have you anything to say about it? Ушкуйник (talk) 14:23, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

And it is not "my" 'left bank'/'right bank' arguments. See: Left-bank Ukraine and Right-bank Ukraine. Ушкуйник (talk) 14:34, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Ушкуйник, your disruptive edits MUST STOP! Let's take a look at the version of the article you've been constantly reverting to. First of all, the title of the article (Cossack Hetmanate) should be bolded per WP:BOLDTITLE. "Hetmanate" is not the title of the article. Secondly, the note about the Russian definition of Hetmanate may either go in the "Etymology" Section or into the article called Hetmanate. This article is about the Cossack Hetmanate, the opening sentence should discuss the topic of the article, not go into tangents, per WP:LEDE.

Now for your Little Russia comparisons. They have NO BASIS. This source that you constantly use , calls it the Little Russian Hetmanate, NOT Little Russia. Same thing goes for section about the Name. There is NOT ONE mention of "Little Russia" in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine source. Another source from EoU, which you constantly remove says "Muscovite sources it was called the Little-Russian state (Malorossiiskoe gosudarstvo). Again, NOT "Little Russia", but Little-Russian State.

Your edits are not backed up by ANY SOURCES. Even the sources that you constantly DO use, DO NOT support your claims. You are engaging in WP:ACTIVISM or WP:SPA, as Iryna has said. I think the next step would be some sort of request for WP:Probation or blocking. --BoguSlav 17:19, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Dear BoguSlav, it is not constructive to threaten with blocking. Your difference between Little Russian Hetmanate and using of the term Little Russia in sense of Hetmanate is a typical hair-splitting. I think you should see for example Gregory Teplov's «О непорядках, которые происходят от злоупотребления прав и обыкновений, грамотами подтвержденных Малороссии». Teplov was a chanceller of Hetmanate, in this work he speaks about Hetmanate, but he writes about it as about Malorossia, or Little Russia. So there is an example of using the term Little Russia in sense of Hetmanate in historical document of Hetmanate. See also this Encyclopedia about it 1, there is an information about Hetmanate in sense of Little Russia after the Treaty of Andrusovo. Do you need more sources to prove, that Little Russia and Hetmanate can be used as historical synonyms? Well, see that: 1, 2, 3. So stop your threatening and try to understand, that the term Little Russia was an official name of Hetmanate. It is a historical name. Best wishes, Ушкуйник (talk) 19:49, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

This is NOT hair-splitting. What you are doing, is over-generalizing. Little Russia = "the territory of modern-day Ukraine". The Little Russian State = "the COUNTRY that existed on that territory". This is similar to Arabia. Arabia = "the territory of the Arabian peninsula". Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, and Qatar = "the COUNTRIES located on that territory". All of your sources make a distinction between Little Russia (the territory) and Malorosiiske gosudarstvo (the country called "Little Russian State"). They SUPPORT what I we have all (expect you) been saying. For example, source 2 says "During that time, the former hetmanate, now called Little Russia...", indicating that Little Russia is what came AFTER the Hetmanate. Little Russia was the name of the territory of the Hetmanate, after the Hetmanate was abolished. This is called cherry-picking the sources to fit your own narrative. As for this link 1, it discusses Hetmanate, not Cossack Hetmanate. Go add that information to the Hetmanate article. But above all, STOP EDIT WARRING. Your sources DO NOT back up your narrative. --BoguSlav 20:42, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

P.S. You have NOT RESPONDED to anything I brought up in my above comment. Your edits do not fit WP:MOS and they are not supported by the sources. You have not even attempted to back up the sources, instead bringing up a bunch of new sources (which do not support you, again). This shows, even more, that even you do not attempt to argue those sources because you know they don't hold any water for your narrative. STOP or you will be blocked.--BoguSlav 20:47, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Dear BoguSlav, firstly, shaw me, please, any sources, where Little Russia is called as a state in sense of Hetmanate. I can not find such sources and that's why I can not agree with you: you try to say, that it was some kind of Little Russian state, but there is no any information about it in any sources. Secondly, I seriously don't understand, how you distinguish Hetmanate and Cossack Hetmanate. Do you mean the difference between Cossack Hetmanate and Ukrainian State of Skoropadskyj? If so, than I don't understand, what is wrong with my sources. You write above: "As for this link 1, it discusses Hetmanate, not Cossack Hetmanate." - sorry, but it discuss right Cossack Hetmanate, or what do you mean under Cossack Hetmanate than? Best wishes, Ушкуйник (talk) 21:17, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

"firstly, shaw me, please, any sources, where Little Russia is called as state". This shows that have not taken the time to read ANY of the sources I been constantly referring to above. Now I know why my sources keep falling on deaf ears. I have actually taken the time to sift through the links you have been posting (which go against what you say btw). All of the links have made a distinction between "Little Russia", the territory, and the "Little Russian State", the country. As for Hetmanate, your source shows that Russians referred to the Hetmanate as "Left-bank Ukraine". This article is not the place for irrelevant information, regarding Left-bank Ukraine. You can take it to either 1) Hetmanate or 2) Left-bank Ukraine. Finally, you have broken the 3RR again.--BoguSlav 21:41, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

"Government of Ukraine" and lands of "Belarus"

Part of this article uses anachronisms, i.e. "government of Ukraine" and "Belarus." The term "government of Ukraine" evokes the modern state of Ukraine, which did not yet exist. Perhaps "government of the Hetmanate" would be better? And the reference to "lands of Belarus" also implies Belarus was a distinct political entity which was not the case, and would not be for centuries. I do not know how to correct this because I am not familiar with the original source material, if there is any. We also need a reference to what "repressions" were carried out and how the "government of Ukraine" notified the population about this. Giordano Bruno (talk) 18:49, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, you seem to be confusing what the term 'anachronism' means. What is being done is the reverse: modern conventions for areas and peoples are replacing anachronistic terminology (Ruthenians, Little Russians, White Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusins, etc.) for areas which would be meaningless to most Anglophone readers. This usage of terminology is completely in keeping with contemporary scholarly Slavic studies conventions in the Anglophone world... in fact, this usage dates back many, many decades due to the discrepancy in nomenclature for the regions in question dependent on whether the information was derived from the Grand Duchy of Moscow, the Tsardom of Russia, the Russian Empire, Polish, Hungarian, Austro-Hungarian and a myriad of other sources. If it's good enough for historical scholars and ethnologists to standardise the terms, it's perfectly fine for Misplaced Pages to follow the same principle in order to disentangle an already convoluted understanding of the history of Eastern Europe. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:17, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Removing 'vassal state' and 'protectorate' from infobox

I've just removed both of these 'status' parameter descriptors from their prominent position in the infobox per WP:NOR. This implies that the Hetmanate was subject to both states for the duration of its existence, which is not the case.

Phases during its existence are for the body of the article, not for POV claims as to ownership of the Cossack Hetmanate. Anyone who knows its history also knows that it was a tad more complicated than that. If any editor feels that there should be some sort of timeline of when, where and who stuffed into the infobox, please consider the issue of WP:DUE. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:54, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

There was no original research so stop saying it is, especially when I brought a source, a WELL-KNOWN historically valid source from the Harvard Ukrainian Studies of the June 1984, volume 8. The Ottoman protected the Cossack Hetmanate as a protectorate. This is a case of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT, stop using your emotions, I see you are descendant from the same Cossacks asking for the Ottoman Sultan for their help. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 01:06, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

I find it interesting you only decided it after someone like me put the Ottoman Protectorate but when the Russian Vassalage wasn't cited, mind you I cited my sources, you flipped the chair and removed all them. Don't worry I will get your sources, so you can sleep tightly Alexis Ivanov (talk) 01:13, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

So IRYNA, what is wrong with Riedlmayer, András, and Victor Ostapchuk. "Bohdan Xmel'nyc'kyj and the Porte: A Document from the Ottoman Archives." Harvard Ukrainian Studies 8.3/4 (1984): 453-73. JSTOR. Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute. Web. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 03:08, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

As I'd already noted to you, the only reference you had provided was "Harvard Ukrainian Studies 8". This carries no more meaning than my using "Encyclopaedia Britannica - Joe Blow" as a reference. I provided you with Misplaced Pages instructions on how to cite a source. What you have provided above does conform with proper referencing, so I'd be more than happy to add it on your behalf to a relevant section in the body of the article.

With regards to the use of the "status" parameter for Template:Infobox former country, I would ask that you read through the documentation carefully. Neither "Vassal state of Tsardom of Russia (from 1654)" (even if someone could come up with a citation), nor "Protectorate of Ottoman Empire (from 1655)" are valid for this parameter... and I would have simply deleted the 'Vassal state' business ages ago if it weren't for the fact that it would start off fresh bouts of edit warring by POV pushers. Information regarding changes which occurred in breaking away from the relationship with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth via treaties with the Ottoman Empire and the ('lost' treaty with) the Tsardom of Muscovy are content for a timeline, but not content that belongs directly under "Rus State".

As for dignifying your WP:ASPERSIONS as to my 'clearly nationalistic bias', I'm not even certain as to which 'nationalistic bias' you've decided I represent. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:11, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

>As I'd already noted to you, the only reference you had provided was "Harvard Ukrainian Studies 8". This carries no more meaning than my using "Encyclopaedia Britannica - Joe Blow" as a reference. I provided you with Misplaced Pages instructions on how to cite a source. What you have provided above does conform with proper referencing, so I'd be more than happy to add it on your behalf to a relevant section in the body of the article.

I'm learning how to do references and I learned it my refrence is ready. You are again parroting the same excuse even though my reference has changed so please bring forth a new excuse.

>With regards to the use of the "status" parameter for Template:Infobox former country, I would ask that you read through the documentation carefully.

I did, is there anything else

>Neither "Vassal state of Tsardom of Russia (from 1654)" (even if someone could come up with a citation), nor "Protectorate of Ottoman Empire (from 1655)" are valid for this parameter... and I would have simply deleted the 'Vassal state' business ages ago if it weren't for the fact that it would start off fresh bouts of edit warring by POV pushers.

What POV pushers? I don't see them, you can't stop improving Misplaced Pages because there are POV pushers. This is again another excuse that is not working. I am reading specifically about Bogdan and the Ottoman Empire.

>I'm not even certain as to which 'nationalistic bias' you've decided I represent.

Both Ukrainian or and Russia, it is clear once someone brought a valid references you got angry and start threatening me with a block even though I fixed my edit every-time you undid it, I find it extremely funny that the Russian Vassal was never edited out you let it there. And even when you un-did my eidt You only undid the Russian edit because I said so. Seems you have incredible love for the Tsardom of Russia that you let it be there with no citation.

Again your criticism is not working. I would like to move forward and improve this article and continue reading about the Cossack and Ottomans. Unless you want to threaten me again Alexis Ivanov (talk) 04:18, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Also why are you linking to "Allegations that an editor may be violating the policy on the protection of children", you are trying so hard to be bureaucratic and you are failing. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 04:25, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

What on earth have you been reading? ASPERSIONS: "An editor must not accuse another of misbehavior without evidence, especially when the accusations are repeated or severe. If accusations must be made, they should be raised, with evidence, on the user-talk page of the editor they concern or in the appropriate forums."... and enough of casting them! You keep going over and over the same ground about my 'obvious bias', but have not addressed the issue at stake here: being that the content is inappropriate for the section it is being used in in the infobox. Please try and WP:LISTEN to the point I am making about where such content is WP:DUE and UNDUE such as a timeline in the body of the article, or referenced in the article as it stands at an appropriate juncture. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:55, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

The bias is obvious once I raised the issue of the Russian Vassalage you then started to get rid of it, only when I said it. How is that not a bias, unless you are just being annoying on purpose to not want to improve the article. Have you clicked on your WP:ASPERSIOn it sends me to "Allegations that an editor may be violating the policy on the protection of children", also Misplaced Pages is WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY you are trying so hard not to improve the article by throwing false allegations.

>being that the content is inappropriate for the section it is being used in in the infobox.

It is fully appropriate unless you have a reason not to be, the Cossack Hetamnate was a vassal of the Ottoman Empire in 1655.

You actually made no point except waste my time by linking to other guidelines and being a bureaucrat so hard, I'm tired of nationalist sentiment in Misplaced Pages that you espouse.

I would like to move on and improve the article, without you threatening me with a block that is based on your perceived stance of the article.

Again I will point to the fact of the WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY, I would like the administrator to come in and fix your issues that you have with me Alexis Ivanov (talk) 14:04, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

I fixed the edit and added a better references with a page and showed the ending. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexis Ivanov (talk • contribs) 17:37, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

The Information I added which is backed by verifiable and valid sources. Hopefully this discussion can end quickly and we can move on to improve the article. I have followed everything as you said and put in the numbers, publishers, page number and everything

Protectorate and Sanjak of the Ottoman Empire (1655 - 1663)
(June 1669 - 1685) Alexis Ivanov (talk) 17:48, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

References

1. Riedlmayer, András, and Victor Ostapchuk. "Bohdan Xmel'nyc'kyj and the Porte: A Document from the Ottoman Archives." Harvard Ukrainian Studies 8.3/4 (1984): 453-73. JSTOR. Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute. Web.
2. Kármán, Gábor, and Lovro Kunčević, eds. The European Tributary States of the Ottoman Empire in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries. Leiden: Brill, 2013. Print. p.137
3. Kármán, Gábor, and Lovro Kunčević, eds. The European Tributary States of the Ottoman Empire in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries. Leiden: Brill, 2013. Print. p.142
4. Magocsi, Paul Robert. History of Ukraine: The Land and Its Peoples. 2nd ed. Toronto: U of Toronto, 2010. Print. p.369

Protectorate of Ottoman Empire?

My memory for these events isn't 100%, but it seems that this was true of only part of the Hetmanate, during a period of time known as the Ruin. During that time the Hetmanate was divided and only one part (under Doroshenko) became a protectorate of the Ottomans, another part had an autonomous status under Russia. While placing "Protectorate of the Ottoman Empire" in an infobox alongside statuses as protectorate of Russia (post-Pereyaslav), independent state (1648-1650s) might be appropriate, only including the Ottoman part is a bit misleading, as doing so unrealistically magnifies the Ottoman relationship. So either add the rest, or remove this one piece.Faustian (talk) 20:02, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't have the rest since my focus is only between Ottoman Empire and the Cossack Hetmante, I have no interest in other countries, I was reading about their relationship specifically which intrigued me. Feel free to add what you want, also Petro was given the whole Hetmante even though he ruled for one year under a unified Ukraine and was attacked by Moscow who put their own Hetman and war broke out, between Moscow and the Porte. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 21:22, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

It is indeed an interesting piece of history. The problem is that the infobox should not overemphasize this part. If only the Ottoman part is included, the result is undue weight to this aspect of the Hetmanate's relationship with other countries and affiliations. If you want to add this part, then you also ought to add the other parts at the same time. regards,Faustian (talk) 23:07, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm not knowledgeable in Russian or Polish relationship with the Cossack as much as the relationship with them with the Ottoman Empire. If I find a source saying there are Armenians in Jerusalem in 11th century, it can't be my job to find evidence of Arabs, Jews, Germans dwelling in that place if my sources are limited. That is why there was citation-needed for the Russian Vassalage. But Iryna decided to attack me and threaten only after I added the Ottoman Protectorate. Maybe you can bring up a Russian Vassalage. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 00:17, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

If you're not familiar with anything aside from your own particular area of interest, you reinstate the content with the 'citation needed' and add your own referenced content. Also, you do not continue to level unfounded accusations against other editors, particularly since you've now turned my talk page, this talk page, and your own talk page into your personal bullying pages while misrepresenting me as being the bully. I'm not even going to start enumerating the number of policies you've already violated in your 'communications' with me. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:02, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

>If you're not familiar with anything aside from your own particular area of interest,

Yes this is how you improve Misplaced Pages, everyone brings in what they know, and this is part of what I know about the Cossacks and the Ottoman Empire and I'm here to improve it.

If I know that there are Armenians in 11th century Jerusalem I will add, I don't want people like you annoying me saying what about .

>you reinstate the content with the 'citation needed' and add your own referenced content.

I didn't re-instate any content, stop lying too much, I;m tired of your lies and threats, I improved my edit there is a big difference, I added the publisher, the author, the page number and followed your silly bureaucratic rules that you are forcing upon others.

>Also, you do not continue to level unfounded accusations against other editors, particularly since you've now turned my talk page, this talk page, and your own talk page into your personal bullying pages while misrepresenting me as being the bully.

You are a bully no doubt, you only got angry once someone like me had way to improve this article, when it was a garbage in the vassal status in the infobox and you dear speak up only when I try to improve with good faith, you clearly showed bad faith from day 1, especially when you let the Russian Vassalage UN-citiated in the infobox but you cry hard when I put a reference there, grow up. How did I bully you? You are the on threatening me with a block, you are power hungry Napoleonic female who got angry. Listen hear sweetheart, you ain't gotta bully me.

> I'm not even going to start enumerating the number of policies you've already violated in your 'communications' with me.

I fixed those issues you raised, is there another issue or would you like me to wake up Bogdan and Petro from their grave to ask them if they were vassals?? Cut the crap already. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 01:19, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Why can't you be like User:Faustian and show respect. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 01:22, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. That being said, you ought to dial down your anger a bit...Faustian (talk) 05:34, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Ok I will. GOOSFRABA Alexis Ivanov (talk) 18:15, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

The Hetmanate was not a puppet state of the Ottoman Empire

The sources in the article do Not say that the Cossack Hetmanate was controlled by the Ottoman Empire. In fact, the book The European Tributary States of the Ottoman Empire in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries says that the Cossack Hetmanate can't exactly be considered a protectorate of the Ottoman Empire because it never paid tribute to the Ottomans and the Ottomans had no say over who was in charge of the Hetmanate. By contrast, an Ottoman sanjak's ruler was appointed by the Ottoman Empire and it did pay tribute. For example, this was the case with Wallachia and Moldavia.

I'm not saying that the Cossack Hetmanate wasn't dependent on the Ottoman Empire on a certain level, but this terminology is wrong, especially because it is not a defining feature of the Hetmanate.--BoguSlav 03:24, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

@Boguslavmandzyuk: As you can see above, this was discussed but not concluded. My view is that this, and the information regarding agreements with Russia, should be in the body of the article, not the infobox as it implies that the Hetmanate was consistently a subsidiary of both empires (which is not the case). Hopefully, this will wake up other editors who've forgotten to conclude how best to present the content of the article. I'm pinging Alexis Ivanov and Faustian in order to see whether they have any particular preferences. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:43, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Who said it was a puppet? Hopefully you can specify which page number, and paragraph number so I can re-check my sources. It has been months since I checked upon the book. Upon looking through, page 142 Puts Cossack Ukraine as a Province/Sanjak of the Ottoman Empire and in page 137 and 138, Khmelnitsky received an ahdname from the Sultan to make the Ukraine a protectorate/Vassal. The book makes it clear that only Russian Historians argue against it. And in page 141 Doroshenko was willing to re-instate the Ottoman protectorate after defeating Bryukhovetsky and he did. You see here it is clear that they are not on the same level as Moldavia and Wallachia but even greater, Doroshenko made a great deal, they are clearly become an Ottoman protectorate minus the fact they pay tribute/Haraç and have to bring in military assistance towards the Ottoman Sultan any time he needs, but there is no garrison of Janissaries in Ukraine. At page 142, the Ottoman Sultan sent çavuş (messenger) to each of Doroshenko colonel to make sure he "really wanted to be under the Sultan or if Doroshenko had forced them to say this". Are you sure you read the book? Alexis Ivanov (talk) 03:35, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

The term "puppet state" is the modern-day equivalent of the old term "vassal state". The book is not nearly as black and white as you try to present it, which makes me question your intentions. Its seems like you read a different book than I did. Page 148-149 says "the Ottomans... did not attempt to consolidate their position in Ukraine by building up a strong military presence there. A frontier buffer zone seemed to suit their interests." It talks about the Cossacks repeatedly requesting Ottoman help and not receiving it. In addition page 150 says "we cannot call the hetmanate an Ottoman tributary" and then reluctantly choses the term "vassal", but with many qualifications (not in the traditional meaning of the term, but more like a military alliance). Page 151 talks about "polyvassalage", meaning that the Hetmanate was a vassal state to multiple entities with which it kept up "various bilateral relations". The book then says that more active Ottoman involvement in the Hetmanate would have meant "a more independent Ukrainian state". It is clear to everyone here that the Cossack Hetmanate switched allegiance between the Ottomans, Poles, and Muscovites in a game to stay alive. These were the political games being played by the Cossack Hetmanate's leaders. Page 145 says that "Cossack Ukraine maintained autonomy under Ottoman protection." It's as simple as that.

Going back to my original statement, the Ottomans did not have all of the traditional power over Cossack Ukraine as it did with its sanjaks. You have contributed nothing to this article in terms of content, except your edits to the infobox. Your edits to the article are one-sided, and therefore, inaccurate.--BoguSlav 04:59, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

>The term "puppet state" is the modern-day equivalent of the old term "vassal state".
'Well we are not using such terminology here are we. Vassal isn't an Old term, there is no Vassal States nowadays'
>The book is not nearly as black and white as you try to present it, which makes me question your intentions.
I never said or implied it was black and white, I never presented it as such. I'm also questioning your intentions because as far as I'm aware you show no evidence of reading the book.
>Its seems like you read a different book than I did.
I read the same book.
>Page 148-149 says "the Ottomans... did not attempt to consolidate their position in Ukraine by building up a strong military presence there. A frontier buffer zone seemed to suit their interests."
How is Ottoman's consolidation any evidence lack of vassalage, when the book established it clearly. Have you read page 150 which calls it a Vassal and points to the same points I have already conveyed towards you.>It talks about the Cossacks repeatedly requesting Ottoman help and not receiving it.
Please show me the pages and paragraphs.
>In addition page 150 says "we cannot call the hetmanate an Ottoman tributary"
That is what I said in my previous point, and you ignored it, I'm questioning your comprehensions skills right here. You can be a vassal that is not a tributary like the Crimean Khanate for example.
>and then reluctantly choses the term "vassal"
That is the closest term we have in English to describe their relationship.
>but with many qualifications (not in the traditional meaning of the term, but more like a military alliance).
Same as the Crimean Khanate and the Wallachian and Moldavian principalities
>Page 151 talks about "polyvassalage", meaning that the Hetmanate was a vassal state to multiple entities with which it kept up "various bilateral relations".
Still a vassal of the Ottoman Empire. This is not mutually exclusive to my points.
> The book then says that more active Ottoman involvement in the Hetmanate would have meant "a more independent Ukrainian state".
You are quoting out context "a more independent Ukrainian state would not come to be".
>It is clear to everyone here that the Cossack Hetmanate switched allegiance between the Ottomans, Poles, and Muscovites in a game to stay alive.
Therefore?
>Page 145 says that "Cossack Ukraine maintained autonomy under Ottoman protection." It's as simple as that.
Which further proves my point, Ottoman sultan have the ability to delegate the autonomousness of their protectorates in the Empire.
>Going back to my original statement, the Ottomans did not have all of the traditional power over Cossack Ukraine as it did with its sanjaks.
It didn't need to, because it agreed not to.
>You have contributed nothing to this article in terms of content, except your edits to the infobox.
Petty attacks against me, I was waiting when you are going to make such vile moves against me, I have contributed to many articles, I love editing infoboxes, are you saying I should edit the article before editing the infobox. Please direct me where in Misplaced Pages it says that. The same way I have changed the flag in the Principality of Transylvania article.
>Your edits to the article are one-sided, and therefore, inaccurate.
How two sided can an Cossack vassalage towards Ottoman Empire be? That is like saying if you edit that the fact nation A is vassal to nation B, you are one-sided, weak argument, you need to find something else to attack me with. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 05:44, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

• The term vassal state, especially the term "sanjak", implies that the Ottomans had full control over the Cossack Hetmanate's internal affairs. The Ottomans DID NOT have full control over the Hetmanate. That is why the Cossack Hetmanate was not a puppet state of the Ottoman Empire. In making your case, you have cherry-picked only the parts of the book that mention aspects of the Hetmanate's dependence on the Ottoamsn, when in reality there is considerable ambiguity in the book about how to label the Hetmanate's relationship with the Ottomans. When it comes to the traditional criteria of a vassal state, the book recognizes that this term is technically incorrect. That is why is inappropriate FOR US ON WIKIPEDIA to call the Cossack Hetmanate a sanjak. This is a controversial claim that is disputed WITHIN THE BOOK ITSELF.
• Going back to the book, "the Ottomans... did not attempt to consolidate their position in Ukraine by building up a strong military presence there. A frontier buffer zone seemed to suit their interests". Now let me break this quote down for you. This means that even though on some level the Porte may have accepted the Hetmanate to be a vassal, they DID NOT COMMIT to ACTUALLY CONSOLIDATING this in practice. So, the Porte may have possibly considered the Hetmanate as a vassal de jure, but de facto, not much was done to turn it into a legitimate vassal state.
• Regarding the quote "a more independent Ukrainian state would not come to be", please try to comprehend what this means. The book claims that Ottoman dis-involvement resulted in less independence for the Ukrainian state. Therefore, more Ottoman involvement would result in a more independent Ukrainian state. How does this square up with your claim that the Hetmanate was merely a sanjak?
• "Which further proves my point, Ottoman sultan have the ability to delegate the autonomousness of their protectorates in the Empire". Ummm... No it DOESN'T prove your point. It just proves that this was a military alliance and YOU ARE ASSUMING that the Ottoman sultan decided the degree of autonomy. THAT IS NOT what the book says. The book says that the Hetmanate swore allegiance to the Ottomans in return for protection. The Ottomans DID NOT collect tribute or take over the Hetmanate politically, because the Hetmanate REMAINED AUTONOMOUS. The Hetmanate was NOT SUBSERVIENT to the Porte.
• As for your personal attacks, I have noticed that you treat everyone who disagrees with you on this talk page as an "attacker" and attacked them. This is inappropriate. Please be WP:CIVIL and follow WP:Etiquette.--BoguSlav 02:54, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

I think that, firstly, we shouldn't be applying modern concepts like 'puppet state' to an era where 'official' relationships were quite different to contemporary times (even for discussions as to the content of the article on the talk page). As I see it, ultimately the only problem here is in the presentation of the infobox... which is hardly insurmountable. If we're to have a section in the infobox outlining political agreements with other states, it would also need to include relationships with the Russian state which, in itself, is problematic for a simple infobox as it covers the transition period from the precursor state to the newly formed Russian Empire.

If anyone has any ideas as to how to create a section in the infobox that somehow informs the reader of how these relationships could be broken down realistically, it would be appreciated. At the moment we only have one such relationship (that is, with the Ottoman Empire) depicted. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:01, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Iryna Harpy I agree with you about the presentation of the infobox because the Cossack Hetmanate had bilateral relations with other countries besides the Ottoman Empire, called "polyvassalage" in the book. Defining the Hetmanate to simply be a vassal of the Ottomans places WP:UNDUE weight on one the many international relationships that the Ukrainian state upheld, especially considering the fact that the Ottomans did not consolidate this agreement de facto and this was only a brief period of the Hetmanate's history.--BoguSlav 03:07, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

They did consolidate de-facto and de-jure even if it was a one second agreement, it should be worth mentioning, so your silly antics have no place by looking for excuses under the bed now. Nobody is stopping you for adding more information, you have any other questions Mr.Bogus? Alexis Ivanov (talk) 11:38, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

>The term vassal state, especially the term "sanjak", implies that the Ottomans had full control over the Cossack Hetmanate's internal affairs.
No it doesn't, Sanjak was used for certain vassals, Doroshenko was assigned to be Sanjakbey.
>The Ottomans DID NOT have full control over the Hetmanate.
I never said that or implied that
>That is why the Cossack Hetmanate was not a puppet state of the Ottoman Empire.
It was a vassal and protectorate of the Ottoman Empire. Nobody used the word puppet, stop spreading misinformation and repeating words that I have never used or mentioned.
> In making your case, you have cherry-picked only the parts of the book that mention aspects of the Hetmanate's dependence on the Ottoamsn, when in reality there is considerable ambiguity in the book about how to label the Hetmanate's relationship with the Ottomans.
I never cherry picked in fact I provided multiple sources, you are the one here is cherry picking and twisting my argument to further push your own goals.
>When it comes to the traditional criteria of a vassal state, the book recognizes that this term is technically incorrect.
It is the closest term we have. Therefore it is the term we use and the term this book and other books used.
>That is why is inappropriate FOR US ON WIKIPEDIA to call the Cossack Hetmanate a sanjak. This is a controversial claim that is disputed WITHIN THE BOOK ITSELF.
It is appropriate. Based on the evidence provided. It is inappropriate because you don't like it and your feelings got hurt?
>Going back to the book, "the Ottomans... did not attempt to consolidate their position in Ukraine by building up a strong military presence there. A frontier buffer zone seemed to suit their interests".
Yes they never put any military presence there, per their agreement.
>Now let me break this quote down for you. This means that even though on some level the Porte may have accepted the Hetmanate to be a vassal, they DID NOT COMMIT to ACTUALLY CONSOLIDATING this in practice.
Let me break it down for you because you are misreading it, they didn't consolidate because they didn't put any military presence there because this is a buffer zone between them and their northern neighbors. Ottomans can have vassals with no military presence in them.
>So, the Porte may have possibly considered the Hetmanate as a vassal de jure, but de facto, not much was done to turn it into a legitimate vassal state.
With that logic every vassal is not de facto, every vassal had their own head managing their local affairs, Crimean Khanate is another example.
>Regarding the quote "a more independent Ukrainian state would not come to be", please try to comprehend what this means.
Please finish the sentence that your wrote, before misquoting it, I hate when people do that, we can see the ways you are trying to do here
>The book claims that Ottoman dis-involvement resulted in less independence for the Ukrainian state. Therefore, more Ottoman involvement would result in a more independent Ukrainian state.
Independent to sort out their own affairs. Not independent to be their own country. You can't apply that analogy when Cossacks were thrown in the pits of war in the Russo-Ottoman wars. If they opt out of their signed agreement then that means a war to bring back them back in to the Imperial sphere.
> How does this square up with your claim that the Hetmanate was merely a sanjak?
Based on the fact that Doroshenko was Sanjak bey and so was Yurii Khmelnytsky
>"Which further proves my point, Ottoman sultan have the ability to delegate the autonomousness of their protectorates in the Empire". Ummm... No it DOESN'T prove your point.
yes it does. They delegated for each of their vassal their duties, and what they pay and what their military presence of Ottoman troops and military assistance that the vassals send to the porte.
>It just proves that this was a military alliance and YOU ARE ASSUMING that the Ottoman sultan decided the degree of autonomy.
This was never a military alliance, in fact being a vassal makes you send military assistance to the Ottoman Sultan himself. So the Sultan needs no military alliance if he can do more than by giving the Cossack the vassalage/protectorate they wanted. Which again proves my point.
>THAT IS NOT what the book says. The book says that the Hetmanate swore allegiance to the Ottomans in return for protection.
Yes, which proves my point that they were a protectorate.
>The Ottomans DID NOT collect tribute or take over the Hetmanate politically,
The Ottomans agreed not to collect tribute from certain vassals like the Cossack Hetmanate and the Crimean Khanate, yet both were vassals and protectorates
>because the Hetmanate REMAINED AUTONOMOUS
Level of autonomous bears nothing towards it's vassalage.
>The Hetmanate was NOT SUBSERVIENT to the Porte.
It was.
>As for your personal attacks, I have noticed that you treat everyone who disagrees with you on this talk page as an "attacker" and attacked them.
That is based on your subjective opinion on what you think of me. It's up to you.
>This is inappropriate. Please be WP:CIVIL and follow WP:Etiquette
Pleases stop misqutoing and start reading more. You are starting to behave unkindly when you misquote purposely and twist my words. And then you come here asking to be civil. I'm being civil with you at the moment. Anytime your feelings get hurt tell me so I can delete it as you wish. Don't want to hurt your feeling. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 12:25, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

What a long drawn-out way to respond, by commenting on every single fragment of my reply. That was painful to read the play-by-play. Get to your point! I think I will reply to you exactly as you keep replying to me.
>No it doesn't, Sanjak was used for certain vassals,
According to Oxford Dictionary, a sanjak is "one of several administrative districts into which a larger district (vilayet) was divided". Please give me some sources to your definition of a Sanjak and that show that the Hetmanate met these criteria.
>Doroshenko was assigned to be Sanjakbey.
Sources please.
>I never said that or implied that
Yes you did, when you called the Hetmanate a "sanjak" of the Ottoman Empire.
>It was a vassal and protectorate of the Ottoman Empire. Nobody used the word puppet, stop spreading misinformation and repeating words that I have never used or mentioned.
I'm using the modern-day equivalent. Don't you just love to knit-pick at specific words when you run out of things to say?
>I never cherry picked in fact I provided multiple sources, you are the one here is cherry picking and twisting my argument to further push your own goals.
Here you did not address the point that I brought up that there is considerable ambiguity in the book about what to label the Hetmanate. You HAVE cherry-picked only the parts of the book that speak about aspects of the Hetmanate's dependence on the Hetmanate in an attempt to further push your own goals. You were hoping that no one else has the book that you are citing and your misinformation will go unchallenged. I see you have had previous problems with endless arguments on other pages and the users there weren't impressed either.
>It is the closest term we have. Therefore it is the term we use and the term this book and other books used.
This is the term that the book uses only for lack of a better term, because the Hetmanate does not fit traditional criteria of a vassal state.
>It is appropriate. Based on the evidence provided. It is inappropriate because you don't like it and your feelings got hurt?
Don't you love pulling sentences out of context and then pretending like you have proved something? Here I made a list of reasons why it is inappropriate to call the Hetmanate a vassal state based on evidence that I cited, but you pull one sentence out of context and in your mind you have just said something clever. It is inappropriate because it is a controversial claim at best, and inaccurate at worst.
>Yes they never put any military presence there, per their agreement.
The agreement was that they station 1000 janissaries in Kodak. So, NO, this WAS NOT their agreement. This proves that you haven't read the book. The Ottomans did not fulfill the agreement.
>Let me break it down for you because you are misreading it
Okay. Please explain to me how I misread it. You haven't read the book and your keep cherry-picking the parts and wrongly explaining the quotes that I cite, but I will try to follow your logic.
>they didn't consolidate because they didn't put any military presence there because this is a buffer zone between them and their northern neighbors. Ottomans can have vassals with no military presence in them.
This again proves that you haven't read the book. The agreement was that the Ottomans would station their military in the Hetmanate, but they never did. Per the agreement, the Hetmanate could be a vassal if the Ottomans station their military in in the Hetmanate, but they never did it. They didn't consolidate the Hetmanate as their vassal state because they did not follow through with the agreement. I am already expecting you to reply to this paragraph sentence-by-sentence, pulling them out of context. It so much harder for you to formulate an argument against a paragraph.
>With that logic every vassal is not de facto,
No. That is not what I was saying because Ottomans did station their troops in their territories, making it de facto their territory. The Ottomans made this agreement with the Hetmanate, but they didn't follow through. Now I understand why your responses make no sense. You haven't read the book.
>every vassal had their own head managing their local affairs, Crimean Khanate is another example.
What's your point?
>Please finish the sentence that your wrote, before misquoting it, I hate when people do that, we can see the ways you are trying to do here
You haven't read the book. What a hypocritical request of you to make. Almost every quote you make is out of context. This conversation is very difficult to have.
>Independent to sort out their own affairs. Not independent to be their own country. You can't apply that analogy when Cossacks were thrown in the pits of war in the Russo-Ottoman wars.
You definitely didn't get that out of the book. This is YOUR OWN INTERPRETATION. You didn't read the book and you don't know what the word "state" means. The book talks about an independent Ukrainian state. Please look it up, because you will be embarrassed that your statement above did not make any sense.
>If they opt out of their signed agreement then that means a war to bring back them back in to the Imperial sphere.
You have lost me with your pronouns. Who is "they" and "them"? Also, I would like some sources for this claim.
>Based on the fact that Doroshenko was Sanjak bey and so was Yurii Khmelnytsky
Please give me a source that says they were called "Sanjak bey".
>yes it does. They delegated for each of their vassal their duties, and what they pay and what their military presence of Ottoman troops and military assistance that the vassals send to the porte.
Again, you are adding your own spin. You are still assuming that the Ottoman sultan decided, but the book says that the Hetmanate and the Ottoman Empire made a bilateral agreement that defined their relationship. The sultan did not delegate the degree of autonomy.
>This was never a military alliance, in fact being a vassal makes you send military assistance to the Ottoman Sultan himself.
It WAS a military alliance. It was a military alliance that never quite turned in to a vassal state, even though the Hetman really wanted it to happen. The Ottomans never fully followed through with the request.
>So the Sultan needs no military alliance if he can do more than by giving the Cossack the vassalage/protectorate they wanted. Which again proves my point.
The syntax of this sentence is brutal. I have no idea what it's trying to say. This is weak English. I don't understand this.
>Yes, which proves my point that they were a protectorate.
Israel receives protection from the United States. Do you call Israel a protectorate of the United States. No! Because this is a military alliance.
>The Ottomans agreed not to collect tribute from certain vassals like the Cossack Hetmanate and the Crimean Khanate, yet both were vassals and protectorates The Ottomans agreed not to collect tribute because they knew this would never happen, because the Hetmanate remained independent. The agreement with the Ottomans just added some military obligations to the Hetmanate. The Hetmanate was not a vassal.
>Level of autonomous bears nothing towards it's vassalage.
You made this up in order to advance your narrative. Please provide sources.
>It was.
It wasn't subservient to the Ottoman Empire. Please provide me with some specific decrees of the Ottoman Sultan (other than military cooperation, like the joint war against Poland-Lithuania, because this was a military alliance) from reliable sources that show that the Hetmanate was taking commands from the Ottomans
>That is based on your subjective opinion on what you think of me. It's up to you.
That is based on your replies to myself and other users on this talk page. Should I quote them for you directly?
>Pleases stop misquoting and start reading more.
What is that supposed to mean? Perhaps you should read WP:Etiquette and WP:CIVIL, instead of keeping up with the insults. Clearly it looks like YOU haven't read these pages.
>You are starting to behave unkindly when you misquote purposely and twist my words.
"The best defense is a good offense" in your opinion, isn't it? When your arguments start running out, just attack the person you're arguing with.
>And then you come here asking to be civil. I'm being civil with you at the moment. Anytime your feelings get hurt tell me so I can delete it as you wish. Don't want to hurt your feeling.
Ah, some more sarcasm and insults from Mr. Ivanov. Sounds like you have a lot of substance to your argument.--BoguSlav 20:26, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

• B-Class former country articles
• WikiProject Former countries articles
• B-Class Ukraine articles
• High-importance Ukraine articles
• WikiProject Ukraine articles