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If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible.

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Paul Singer (businessman)#Copy edit (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• FoCuSandLeArN (talk · contribs)
• Nomoskedasticity (talk · contribs)
• SegataSanshiro1 (talk · contribs)
• NickCT (talk · contribs)
• Jonathan A Jones (talk · contribs)
• ‎Comatmebro (talk · contribs)
• Meatsgains (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This post concerns Paul Singer (businessman). I recently copy edited the article due to its NPOV tag. One of the sentences I removed from the lede was reinstated by Nomoskedasticity, mainly "His business practices have been described by detractors as having the characteristics of a vulture fund, a characterization which Singer rejects." The phrase has since undergone several changes, and is now somewhat different, however the "vulture" term remains steadfast. I hold the use of "vulture" is not only non-neutral but pejorative and offensive, as treated in RS. Posterior discussions, such as here, here and here, were thoroughly unproductive. I request mediation with the intention of receiving feedback regarding both WP:BLP and WP:NPOV, their ramifications with regards to the use of the term, and hopefully an end to this slight content dispute. So far I've been able to fathom a 3v3 !vote regarding the use of said term, which is indeed far from consensus. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 21:51, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I've posted messages on both BLPN and NPOVN, but not a single person outside of the disputing editors cared to offer any comments.

How do you think we can help?

I am hoping you can provide advice and direction with regards to policy on this issue (e.g. neutrality), and finally put us on the right path to improving the current article. I believe we are all willing to compromise and find common ground. We need to get this moving. There will continue to be content disputes every time the article is edited unless we find a way to resolve the article's tone and the use of a specific set of adjectives.

Summary of dispute by Nomoskedasticity

• With apologies -- I decline to participate. This issue was the subject of an RfC that was closed three months ago. I do not think the interest of a single editor newly active on the page is justification for an extensive DR initiative. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:59, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by SegataSanshiro1

The premise of the argument is unfounded. Vulture fund was discussed very heavily at W2W here and the consensus was to follow the sources and go with the commonly used term, that being Vulture fund. Editing a BLP, one has to be careful not to attribute the term to Singer specifically in Misplaced Pages's voice, but do make sure sources are represented and there are many, many sources which indicate that he has been referred to as a vulture directly and others purely describing his business as a vulture fund. While the need to avoid smearing is necessary, but we're not here to avoid hurting people's feelings. Leaving this out would be akin to whitewashing and it's seriously damaging to Misplaced Pages's credibility if this page is going to read like a nice PR piece for Singer (as it has in the past). The very simple solution would be to use the term, but use it wisely. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 20:12, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by NickCT

I agree with User:Jonathan A Jones, User:SegataSanshiro1 and User:Nomoskedasticity. This conversation has had a lot of input from a lot of people. This looks like a somewhat extraordinary fourth bite at the DR apple by User:FoCuSandLeArN. NickCT (talk) 00:50, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Jonathan A Jones

I agree with Nomoskedasticity and SegataSanshiro1: this topic has gone round an apparently endless cycle of discussions, RFCs, noticeboards, and so on, raising forum shopping to a veritable artform. There's no real dispute here, just an editor not prepared to accept a clear and utterly uncontroversial consensus, which is that in this article we should adopt standard Misplaced Pages practice and follow what the sources say about the subject. The term "vulture fund" in not intrinsically pejorative, though some sources use it in a pejorative fashion, but even if it were agreed to be so then there would be nothing wrong in noting that "vulture fund" is one of the descriptions widely applied to Singer's activities as long as such descriptions were properly sourced and due weight was applied. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 22:56, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by ‎Comatmebro

I've stated from the beginning that I find the term to be non-neutral pejorative as well as offensive. I think if the argument is being made that the term should be used "sparingly", than the argument should be made that the term shouldn't be used at all. Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 01:20, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Meatsgains

Consensus on this issue was claimed to have been met on RfCs and noticeboards however, prior discussions prove that the same involved editors disagree on whether the term should be added to Singer's BLP. I maintain that the term "vulture" is a derogatory pejorative not suitable for Misplaced Pages, especially a BLP. Comparing somebody or their business practices to a bird that feeds on the death of a sick or injured animal or person violates WP:NPOV. The opposition (those who favor adding the term) argue that there is only one editor who is unwilling to accept use of the term but there are several who disagree with adding it. Clearly we have not reached a definitive consensus since this issue is being addressed yet again. I would like to see feedback from other users (not the same ones pinged here) and for an admin to take a look at this dispute. Meatsgains (talk) 03:30, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Paul Singer_(businessman)#Copy_edit discussion

Volunteer's note: Two important points to FoCuSandLeArN:

• DRN will not accept cases where there has been no extensive and recent discussion on a talk page, preferably but not necessarily the article talk page (but not through edit summaries). The most recent discussion I can find at the article talk page is approaching two months old and I cannot find any more recent discussion which involves much the same editors elsewhere. Unless you can point us to some more recent discussion, this request will be closed 24 hours from now.
• It is the filing party's obligation, as noted at the top of the page, to notify the other listed parties with a note on their user talk pages of the filing of this case. The template {{DRN-notice|Paul Singer}} — ~~~~ can be used for that purpose, or you can leave a custom note with a link here. A notice only on the article talk page will not suffice. However, having said that, if this is going to be closed due to lack of recent discussion there's no point in bothering to give those notices.

Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 22:12, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

 To DRN volunteers: TransporterMan I did some quick digging through the archives of the BLP/N and the NPOV/N (both very dusty and dark BTW) and found this NPOV/N thread with the last dated comment being from ... New Year's Day (UTC)! So it has had almost three weeks to cool off. I haven't read the actual content in each page's discussion yet which may influence any decisions since it has apparently "done the rounds" of WP:DR forums. Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 03:48, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Good catch, Dr. C. FoCuSandLeArN, I think that probably solves the issue raised in my first bullet point, above (if barely), but you still need to notify the other editors and this listing will be closed as abandoned if you don't do it in the next 2-3 days. Also bear in mind that the other editors must choose to participate here since the purpose of DRN is to help editors to try to come to consensus. If they do not choose to do so — they are not required to do so — then this will be closed as futile. One of the things that a large passage of time between the end of discussion and filing here does is to make participants reluctant to restart something they thought was already finished. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:11, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the above points. I posted this last night and have been away from a computer since. I'll rectify the notifications issue shortly. I am also aware of the participation caveat. I appreciate your help. Regards, FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 19:46, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

 To DRN volunteers: I would like to formally recuse myself from moderation of this case due to being both involved in the WP:W2W RfC discussion - concerning the use of "Vulture Fund" and associations - with several of the above users and having other interactions with several of the above users in other areas that would likely bias me. I am still happy to help with providing unthought-of ideas and solutions but will stay at arm's length from the dispute. Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 02:53, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Volunteer's note: I'm not taking this case, but I do have a question to ask FoCuSandLeArN, ‎Comatmebro, and Meatsgains: There clearly has been a consensus in the past to use the term in this article. Consensus can, of course, change, but for it to change it must be changed. That means that there must be a new consensus discussion, either in the form of just a plain discussion or in the form of a RFC or both, which comes to the new consensus. (Or a long-unreverted edit in contradiction of the prior consensus, but that's not the case here.) If no new consensus is formed — that is, the new discussion ends in either a consensus to retain the existing consensus or in "no consensus" — the existing consensus remains in place. It is, also of course, permissible to start new discussions or continue prior discussions in an effort to change consensus. (That right does not mean, however, that the opponents must participate or continue to participate in those attempts) However, to form a new consensus one must either bring new supporters into the discussion (which presumes that the reasons to support both options are very close in weight so that the number of supporters becomes relevant), convince some of the opponents to change or compromise their position, or most often to advance new arguments or new circumstances which were not considered or not adequately considered in the prior consensus discussions to show that the prior consensus was inappropriate. With that introduction, I'm concerned that there's not really a dispute here for us to moderate. DRN does not take cases where there is already consensus on a dispute. In this case, that means that there must be at least some demonstration, of the type noted above, that the existing consensus should change. What has been offered in the discussions since the last consensus was formed on this matter which should cause that consensus to change? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:59, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Comment: I find your predisposition quite unsettling, especially after the points you established above. First of all, I am a new uninvolved editor (as Nomoskedasticity aptly mentioned) who's entered the discussion - a "new supporter" as you put it. I did not participate in the aforementioned RfC, which by the way was deemed "weak". There have been other editors in previous discussions (such as Capitalismojo) which were not summoned, so I hold there is ample space for discussion. This has been an ongoing dispute for months (as far as I've gathered), and the new circumstances you mentioned are presently clear. Now, I can propose a new RfC in due course, or we can try to reach a favourable outcome for the encyclopaedia together through this thread. I have tried to raise this issue in several instances, during which no new editors have come forth; how do you suggest we bring new users into the discussion without being accused of forum shopping? What you're effectively implying is that DRN is only viable for stale RfCs. If that's the case, then we should all be very worried about how the encyclopaedia processes discussion. Regards, FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 16:40, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

You say, "the new circumstances you mentioned are presently clear." Do you mean something other than you being a new participant? If so, what are those new circumstances? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:13, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Regarding new circumstances: The W2W RfC regarding the use of the term "vulture fund" occurred after the RfC in question, so if anything circumstances have strengthened the consensus established. Furthermore, the RfC in question did not involve many of the editors summoned here, though many were involved in this one (over a year ago) which also established consensus on the use of the term. The circumstances are the same as usual: this has done the rounds multiple times, has seen countless editors get involved and establish consensus repeatedly on the term's usage (we could even do an overall tally across the board if required). Presently, the only "dispute" which is occurring is between editors who choose to respect sources and consensus and those who do not - there is no grey area here, Misplaced Pages's guidelines are pretty clear and I agree with many of the editors here that there is simply nothing to discuss. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 20:38, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

The W2W you are referring to was over a page name, not including the term "vulture" on a BLP. Also, please point me in the right direction where you are seeing "countless editors" getting involved in this dispute. It has been the same six editors going back and forth with no forward movement. Meatsgains (talk) 23:42, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

I believe I made myself clear with the above post, TransporterMan. The exact conditions you listed were met, and yet here we stand back at square one. What do you suggest be done? This dispute is not going away by sheer ignorance. "There are no uninteresting things, only uninterested people." Cheers, FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 23:30, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• Volunteer note - If it isn't clear to User:TransporterMan what has changed since consensus was reached, then, User:FoCuSandLeArN, then the failing is yours for not explaining, not his for not understanding. I don't see what has changed other than you being a new participant either. Refusal to answer a simple question from the coordinator is not a good way to get this case started. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:47, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• "there must be a new consensus discussion" - there were 3 in the past month; none were even near conclusive.
• "It is, also of course, permissible to start new discussions or continue prior discussions in an effort to change consensus. (That right does not mean, however, that the opponents must participate or continue to participate in those attempts) However, to form a new consensus one must either bring new supporters into the discussion (which presumes that the reasons to support both options are very close in weight so that the number of supporters becomes relevant)" - last consensus was deemed "weak", hence this is precisely where the number of participants takes special weight.
• "convince some of the opponents to change or compromise their position, or most often to advance new arguments or new circumstances which were not considered or not adequately considered in the prior consensus discussions to show that the prior consensus was inappropriate" - this is precisely what is being attempted here.

Now can we please move forward? If, as TransporterMan implied above, DRN is merely a venue for stalled RfCs, I'd be very happy to organise one promptly. Thank you, FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 23:55, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

FoCuSandLeArN, can you answer the simple question of "What new circumstances have come to light since the prior RfCs?" This does not include a single uninvolved editor (yourself) entering into the long-running dispute that has achieved some consensus. Give us a simple answer, not a round-the-merry-go-round-we-go response quoting the DRN Co-ordinator's concerns about accepting this case for moderation, which are quite valid considering the DRN "Charter" and the sheer response-size this dispute has garnered. I would also invite @Nomoskedasticity, SegataSanshiro1, NickCT, Jonathan A Jones, Comatmebro, and Meatsgains: to present, to TransporterMan (DRN Co-ordinator) and/or Robert McClenon (highly respected DRN Moderator), what is new to the debate, if anything, since the three previous RfCs were completed regarding 'Vulture Funds' and their managers, in the context of the Paul Singer (businessman) article? Please remember to be civil and not comment on user conduct, keep the focus on the article content and respond concisely. -- Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 00:57, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

To make things more simple for the volunteers, I have taken the time to create some tables and a timeline with the number of times the editors here have been involved in these discussions. There's been a lot of claims that not many editors have been involved, that it's always the same editors or that consensus was weak. Let's just let the facts speak for themselves. I apologise for the length of this, but perhaps it will save more time in the long-run. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 02:26, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Before I provide "what is new to the debate", one thing to note is that two of the users below supporting use of the term have been blocked indefinitely (Joe Bodacious & Two kinds of pork). Also, the W2W should be omitted because this discussion is in regards to Singer's BLP. Meatsgains (talk) 02:44, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

You also failed to mention that other users such as Capitalismojo responded to the RfC's threaded discussion opposing use of the term stating: "Your continuing personal attacks are inappropriate. Please cease. Multiple editors disagree with your approach. I have carefully read the refs. The most reliable don't refer to the subject as a vulture. They refer to his funds as "vulture funds" and to him as the inventor of "vulture funds"."

I have not "fudged" any figures or "framed" anything. Before I respond to your comments, may I remind you that the volunteers here have said specifically to refrain from personal attacks - advice which you have unfortunately ignored.

As for leaving out editors from talk page discussions, I did. I also left out editors who were in favour of usage of the term such as HughD (who I will refrain from pinging as I have with the others since there has been sufficient canvassing in these discussions already) since they were not part of establishing consensus through RfCs. As for the two blocked editors, that's a simple oversight on my behalf and is to be expected when you're going through multiple discussions attempting to tally-up the involvement of 30+ editors. Even not counting those two, the numbers still speak for themselves. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 04:03, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

No users supporting use of the term in the RfCs you provided below responded to the threaded discussions so I'm not sure what you are referring to. Threaded discussions are absolutely used to establish consensus on RfCs. Meatsgains (talk) 04:30, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Also, leaving out my username in the table for RfC 2 is misleading. Meatsgains (talk) 04:34, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

The number of discussions you (and other editors) were involved in appears next to your name on the table. I have not left out any of the editors in this discussion. Again, I have not mislead anyone - this table is there to count the number of editors not the amount of times they have participated. Please stop throwing around accusations or I will withdraw myself from these discussions along with the other editors. This is really getting on my nerves. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 04:43, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

RfC 1: Should the article Paul Singer (businessman) mention that his company has been called a vulture fund? 16 July 2014 - 21 August 2014

RfC 2: Should use of the term "vulture" be added to a BLP? 30 August 2015 - 12 October 2015

W2W: Using "Vulture fund" as a page name 14 October 2015 - 24 November 2015

Note: this is not part of the Paul Singer discussion, but the volunteers have asked what new things have happened since the last RfC, and this seems relevant. If it should not be taken into consideration, then feel free to ignore it.

Totals

Total number of editors involved: 31

Discussions started by FoCuSandLeArN:

Copy edit (talk page) - 30 November 2015

New involvement: 0

Paul Singer (businessman) (BLP noticeboard) - 4 December 2015

New involvement: 0

Paul Singer (NPOV noticeboard) - 15 December 2015

New involvement: 2 - support for usage of the term from an IP editor, minor point of clarification from a new editor

Talk:Paul Singer_(businessman)#Copy_edit (here) - 23 January 2016

New involvement: 0

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

1. a substantially single-issue editor (Haptic-Feedback), over 90% of whose edits in the past few months have been to Transhumanist politics, Zoltan Istvan or their talk pages;
2. who doesn't seem to understand WP:RS, and has a habit of adding lots of bad sources rather than any good ones;
3. and keeps pushing Zoltan Istvan's "Transhumanist Party" as being a thing that actually exists in any meaningful sense rather than being a publicity outlet for Istvan. (The "Transhumanist Party" is already covered in detail on Zoltan Istvan.)

Apologies for the late start, I was waiting on the remaining three editors but I will be starting without @Dsprc and Doncram: as one appears to have stopped editing around the 25th/Jan/2015 and the other has significantly reduced their edit rate at around the same time, while Abierma3 appears to go on long breaks between edits and likely won't be online again for some time. Both users are welcome to join the discussion at any time by creating a section for their statements in whatever statement round we are in, if/when they decide to join the discussion. I will take the time to repeat; DRN discussion is purely voluntary and editors may leave or enter the discussion at any time but risk the discussion being closed for lack of participation if the case becomes one-sided or only between the moderator and a single user. Just saying.

So, some ground rules to help avoid making messy discussions and to help keep a lid on emotions, since we are here to focus on content, not on contributors (yes, that is the DRN mantra; no, we can't get rid of it).

1. Per above; focus on content and avoid making allegations about, assigning blame to, and/or directing uncivil comments towards any editor.

   E.g. instead of saying "User:Example disruptively reverted my well-referenced, completely neutral and perfect edit in complete disregard for consensus, yadda yadda" simply say "My edit was reverted on by User:Example". Notice how the first creates tension while the second is much more calm and neutral? That second example is precisely what DRN is based on and what I want to see from editors.

   I will, at all times, reserve the right to collapse comments that appear to be uncivil towards an editor, aggressive to an editor, or contain conduct allegations about an editor per the Mediation policy.

2. Please do not create long/long-winded nor unclear/ambiguous posts.

   When you get asked a question about "What colour is the sky?" do you expect a 30-minute speech about the exact colour shading of the sky at the exact time you asked? No? Neither do I and by making shorter, simpler and clearer posts, you actually help make the resolution process run faster meaning we all go home happier sooner or you get helped to the most appropriate forum for resolution faster which leads back to going home happier sooner.

3. Please respond within 48 hours, though I'll stretch to 72-hours, same rationale as point 2)

   I will also attempt to the best of my abilities to respond within the same time frame. At most, I may take 72 hours to respond or I will let you all know that there will be a short break so I can digest something or do some digging.

   If I can't continue for whatever reason, I will ask if one of the more active DRN members can take over for me, and again I will let you all know.

4. Please avoid making threaded discussions, same reason as point 2) and related sub-point.

   Exception to this is if I ask for comments on something, or I am asking for clarification of a statement/etc. or if you're confused about anything and would like to request a clarification, or comments on an idea. This is a proactive platform, so don't expect me to make the magic solution ... I might make it, but you might think of something better.

   Still, try to avoid threaded discussion where possible unless it is a possible solution.

5. I will ping either all current users involved in discussion or the relevant user(/s) for clarification when I have made a new statement or request. I use the {{U}} template for individual requests or {{ping}} for group responses.

(up-to-date, as of 05:43, 28 January 2016 (UTC))

So, as long as everyone is happy to live by those, let's get started. @Haptic-feedback, Gap9551, and David Gerard:

First question, (and I know it has been partly addressed above, I just want to make sure) is this content dispute about the sources being used in the article per the {{third party}} and {{unreliable sources}} templates?
Second question, if the content dispute is not solely about sources, what else is disputed?
First request, can someone please point out which section(/s) of the article are alleged to suffer from WP:UNDUE weight? Please include concise reasons as to why.
Second request, can someone please list which sources are believed to affecting the verifiability of the article? Please include concise reasons as to why.
Once these have been answered by the relevant parties, I will respond again. Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 05:43, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

In terms of content, I do believe that this dispute is solely about the sources, specifically regarding the third-party template. I do not know why claims of undue weight and unverifiable sources have been made. --Haptic Feedback (talk) 06:40, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Questions 1&2: I think this is only about sources. Requests 1&2: I leave that to editors who expressed concerns about these two issues in the dispute. Gap9551 (talk) 22:46, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• Q1: Yes, for the most part, dispute is on unreliable sourcing.
• Q2: (Behaviours but, "Content not Contributor")
• R1: The portion on Views and insistence by some to allow Zoltan Istvan to dominate article (latter has been mostly resolved content-wise but is on-going struggle)
• R2: Some of these and the rationale have been addressed here.

• The above compose roughly 24 or so of the 33 citations. -- dsprc  02:56, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Template talk:NE regional map (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Riphamilton (talk · contribs)
• Whoop whoop pull up (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

User:Whoop whoop pull up insists that TF Green Airport station should be listed on Template:NE regional map. Reverts have been going back and forth. Amtrak does not (and currently can not) serve that station. In order for there to be Amtrak service at the station, there needs to be significant construction done at the station, as no platform services a rail that is electrified - a requirement for Amtrak service. I don't believe this is disputed by anyone. There is no anticipated opening date for Amtrak service to TF Green. The construction has not been commenced; the construction has not even been funded. I concede that there are news articles that discuss the station. Amtrak's Master Plan lists such a station as merely a "long range plan.... under consideration" (page 6 of the most recent Master Plan, 2010). It should be noted that the Amtrak Master Plan is so speculative in nature that it lists an entirely new NextGen HSR NE corridor (to be completed by 2040) as a proposal in a 2012 addendum. In no way should the Master Plan be construed as a definitive forecast, particularly for purposes of a route map of an existing railroad line. There is no satisfactory source that shows with any certainty TF Green Airport will be served by Amtrak, therefore the station should not be listed on the route map.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I began the conversation on the template's talk page.

How do you think we can help?

Establish criteria for when a station should be added to the template for a United States railway, and provide a ruling in this case.

Summary of dispute by Whoop whoop pull up

Template talk:NE regional map discussion

•  Volunteer note: - At time of writing;

1. The filing party has not notified the involved editor.
2. The discussion on the talkpage, while recent, is not sufficient for a DRN case; nor are undoes/reverts considered part of the "discussion count". Unless there is a secondary page being used to discuss this issue (e.g. user talkpage, Project page, etc.), this is considered insufficient discussion.
3. DRN does not "stablish criteria for when a station should be added to the template for a United States railway, and provide a ruling in this case." as we are intended for informal content dispute resolution. If such a criteria were to be made, it would most likely occur at either the relevant WikiProject(/s) - in this case WP:TRAINS, WP:WikiProject Stations, and/or WP:USA - or at WP:Village pump (policy). In both cases this would be achieved through an WP:RfC.

• Per the 2nd and 3rd reasons, I (or another DRN Volunteer) will be closing this case in 24 hours unless a more detailed discussion has occurred at a secondary page.

If the dispute continues, with discussion, then the case may be refiled and reconsidered without prejudice.

Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 06:20, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. 'https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Muhammad#Aisha_.22reaching_age_of_puberty.22

• Talk:Muhammad (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Trinacrialucente (talk · contribs)
• Eperoton (talk · contribs)
• Jeppiz (talk · contribs)
• FreeatlastChitchat (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

In the section https://en.wikipedia.org/Muhammad#Household there is a very specific sentence which reads "Traditional sources dictate Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad,with the marriage not being consummated until she had reached puberty at the age of nine or ten years old". The dispute is that NONE of these "traditional sources", specifically the Hadith/Sunnah which contains the life of Muhammad as narrated by his contemporaries says Aisha ever reached puberty.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Attempted mediation previously, but was told 2 months ago that the discussion on the Talk page was not extensive enough (although that is very subjective). 2 months later and there is still no resolution/consensus.

How do you think we can help?

As this has to do with the topic of religion, it would be best if there were unbiased arbiters who could make a clear decision based on the facts.

Summary of dispute by Eperoton

Summary of dispute by Jeppiz

Talk:Muhammad discussion

I would like to be party in dispute as I was one of the editors involved in the original dispute FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 11:16, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

• Volunteer note - There has been extensive discussion on the talk page about Muhammad and Aisha over a period of months. However, there is also an RFC on the talk page that was opened on 3 December and has not been formally closed. This case cannot be accepted while the RFC is open, and can only be accepted after the RFC is open if the result of the RFC is No Consensus, because if the RFC is closed with consensus, we don't change consensus here. It is requested that someone, whether a DRN volunteer or otherwise, close the RFC. (If a DRN volunteer closes the RFC as No Consensus, they should recuse from accepting this case.) It should also be mentioned that Muhammad is subject to discretionary sanctions. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:39, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
• Volunteer note - In view of the length that disputes about Muhammad have been continuing, if content dispute resolution is appropriate, the parties should consider formal mediation. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:42, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

If you are referring to the case I opened and was initially taken by Transporterman, it WAS closed due to pressure from Neil (not sure the designation for "official" or no). Regardless, can you guide us in what would be next steps for the WP:RFM process?

Trinacrialucente (talk) 18:59, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

• Volunteer note - The RFC appears to be No Consensus. However, in view of the sensitivity to some Muslim Wikipedians to what they see as anti-Muslim bias, I would prefer that the RFC be closed by a Muslim editor who did not participate in it. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:36, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
• Volunteer note - User:TransporterMan - Was there previous mediation? If there was previous mediation, then attempting to continue this dispute here seems futile. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:36, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

As stated previously, there was no previous mediation on this topic.

And if you look through the entire dialogue, the problem is not anti-Muslim bias...it is the opposite. So, I hardly think having a Muslim editor close the RFC is objective or contructive, since that "bloc" are the ones creating the stalemate/preventing any edits. Let's drop the "PC" over-sensitivities and function like an academic encyclopedia. Any qualification of the religion of an editor to settle such a dispute is in itself a form of prejudice. I personally don't care what the religion (if any) the participating editor is, so long as the editor has not shown bias to the topic. Trinacrialucente (talk) 22:04, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: I'm not saying that I've not touched this case previously, but if I have I don't remember it (which is entirely possible). The only other prior filing I can find is this one, which was closed for insufficient discussion (but I didn't do it). Incidentally, I'm conflicted out on this case, having had dealings with one or more of the parties in the past, except for routine administrative actions. — TransporterMan (TALK) 03:51, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

That's the same as this case, except that there has not been marginally recent discussion. There is also now a formal Request for Mediation at the MEDCOM about Muhammad and slaves. Does that conflict with this DRN request? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:01, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

No, as I stated in the other filing, these are completely separate topics (the other involves slavery). This one we are discussing here is in fact much older, yet never been resolved.Trinacrialucente (talk) 08:00, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

This case is probably in need of closure in 24 hours for two reasons, either of which would be sufficient. First, neither of the two editors named by the filing party has made a statement agreeing to mediation. Second, there is still an open RFC waiting for closure. (If the RFC is closed as No Consensus and the two editors make statements, this case may be opened.) Robert McClenon (talk) 19:36, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

This case is now also pending at the edit-warring noticeboard. DRN is not meant to handle a dispute that is pending in another forum, whether another content resolution forum, such as RFC, or a conduct resolution forum, such as ANEW (since edit-warring is a conduct issue). Robert McClenon (talk) 23:04, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.