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A Free Ride has been listed as one of the Media and drama good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones Date Process Result March 10, 2012 Good article nominee Listed March 21, 2012 Featured article candidate Not promoted April 15, 2012 Peer review Reviewed A fact from this article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on February 14, 2012.The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that A Free Ride is considered to be the earliest surviving American hardcore pornographic film? Current status: Good article

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quote wrong?

Is a required, or a correction: "where men and men and girls will be girls"? Bigesian (talk) 14:10, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Corrected by Yngvadottir (talk · contribs) --SupernovaExplosion 15:58, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Is this an American film?

1. The car has the steering wheel on the right, American cars have it on the left. The car was also driving on the left side of the road, suggesting that this was filmed outside the U.S.
   • It's conceivable that it's a pre-standardization car; see Steering wheel#History. Bigesian (talk) 22:08, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
   • The car's not driving on the left, it's driving where the wheel ruts are. It drives down the same runs entering and (continuity error) leaving. Bigesian (talk) 07:19, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
2. The director is credited as 'Will. B. Hard'. Willy is a British euphanism for a penis.
   • Or alternatively, it's the future tense and advertising promise. Bigesian (talk) 22:08, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

If you look at the trees, bushes and landscape, it's more likely to be America than Britain; conceivably it's somewhere in the Commonwealth - Australia had burgeoning film industry at the time. Bigesian (talk) 22:08, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

That car has a long, thin British style licence plate as well. American ones are more square. 80.249.48.108 (talk) 19:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

And that hasn't changed in 100 years? Bigesian (talk) 07:19, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

unecessary

"In the wide open spaces, where men are men and girls will be girls,  the hills are full of romance and adventure."

could be read

"In the wide open spaces (where men are men and girls will be girls)  the hills are full of romance and adventure."

thus

"In the wide open spaces (where men are men and girls will be girls)  the hills are full of romance and adventure."

as such,

"In the wide open spaces  the hills are full of romance and adventure."

looks wrong. I proposed the removal of the . Bigesian (talk) 07:19, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Done. --SupernovaExplosion 13:11, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:A Free Ride/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Crisco 1492 (talk · contribs) 13:17, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I will take this review. Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:17, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Checklist

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
	1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	I'm pleased after my copyedit
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	Good
	2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	See below
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	Good
	2c. it contains no original research.	Good
	3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	See below
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	See below
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	Good
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	Per definition
	6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	Checks out
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	Good
	7. Overall assessment.	Pending

Comments

1b

• The lede should better reflect the article, including the 1923 estimate and that the film has given rise to other works. Perhaps have two paragraphs for the lede, considering the length of the article.

• Expanded the lede to include all these points, made a two-paragraph lede. --SupernovaExplosion 14:49, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

2a

• The pile up of references for "Most sources put the production year of this film at 1915 and consider A Free Ride to be the earliest surviving American hardcore pornographic film." looks awkward. Any way it could be merged into one reference, maybe through a footnote?
• Also, publisher locations?

• I have used Template:Sfnm, but some technical problem occurred. See this. The Thompson reference is not showing the year. Someone knowledgeable about this technical issue should fix it. --SupernovaExplosion 14:49, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

• The problem is fixed. --SupernovaExplosion 16:22, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

3a

• I think a bit about the Oppenheim film should be added, at the very least the title and how it could not have any actors. (Is it worth an article?)

• Added. --SupernovaExplosion 14:49, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

3b

• I'm not sure the anecdote about de Renzy is entirely relevant.

• Nuked. --SupernovaExplosion 14:49, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

6b

• I think a screenshot would be best for the infobox (perhaps the title card), with the film further down and in a larger resolution. That's not a criteria, naturally. Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:43, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

• But I have no idea how to take a sceenshot from the video. --SupernovaExplosion 13:45, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

• It's just a side comment, not a must. Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:07, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

• Spotchecks on Cavendish and Thompson check out, as does paraphrasing. Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:07, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Hold for the relatively minor fixes above. Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:17, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

• That does it, methinks. Congrats! Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:15, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you for reviewing! --SupernovaExplosion 16:30, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Ford Model T

The source for the claim that the man was driving a Model T is Slade, Joseph W. (2006), "Eroticism and Technological Regression: The Stag Film", History and Technology: An International Journal 22 (1): 35. --SupernovaExplosion 21:07, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

"Crude humor"

In A_Free_Ride#Critical_analysis, the use of false cast name is described as "crude humor" by Williams. The quote from Williams is:

I've worded the "from this and later eras" assertion as "in American stag films produced from this time". "From this time" means "from this and later times". --SupernovaExplosion 21:58, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

RfC: Replace embedded hardcore pornographic movie with link to Commons?

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This article has had a hardcore pornographic movie embedded in it since 2012. Should the embedded hardcore pornographic movie be replaced with a link to the file on Commons? Right Hand Drive (talk) 00:17, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

• Default to no change (Keep embedded video) - No rationale offered for its removal. Article is about a film. Film is in the public domain. We have a copy of the film. If it were any other subject that could be displayed in a single image-sized frame, we would display it. Given that Misplaced Pages not censored, there would need to be a compelling argument to remove. I note that there are several threads on several different pages on more or less this same subject that you are aware of, so why did you open this one? — Rhododendrites \\ 02:15, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • I did not start the discussions at the Village Pump or WP:NOT. Neither of those discussions seems likely to be productive, since both are predicated on misunderstandings of policy and technical details. A specific, focused discussion seems necessary to move this forward. The outcome of this RfC will be useful for guiding actions at Debbie Does Dallas. Right Hand Drive (talk) 02:42, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
    • Then you should deal with the issue at that article instead of trying to remove content from an unrelated one. Gamaliel (talk) 17:13, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
      • He's proposing something that he doesn't actually believe in or want to happen in order get an easy "win" here which he can then attempt to leverage over there. As Aristotle said, man is the political animal... Herostratus (talk) 23:55, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
        • User:Herstratus, please stop insulting me, making insinuations about me, ascribing false motives to me, or generally referring to me at all. This is your last warning. Right Hand Drive (talk) 03:49, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
      • I am not trying to remove content. I went out of my way to phrase the question as neutrally as possible. It does not suggest that one outcome is preferable, it simply gives a choice of two possibilities. I make no assumptions about how this RfC will end. Whatever the outcome of this RfC, it will help to guide other similar cases (Debbie Does Dallas potentially being one). Right Hand Drive (talk) 03:49, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
        • "embedded hardcore pornographic movie" does not strike me as neutral phrasing. Gamaliel (talk) 04:17, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
          • It is an embedded hardcore pornographic movie. This discussion would not be happening here if it were an embedded movie with no hardcore pornographic content. Can you suggest a different phrasing that is more neutral yet contains the same information? Right Hand Drive (talk) 04:38, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
            • "Should a video of this film be embedded in this article?" is a phrasing that avoids any emotional charge or issues of neutrality. To phrase the question to emphasize your motivation for starting this discussion is not neutral. Gamaliel (talk) 04:48, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
              • That does not contain the same information. You assume that the editors responding will be familar with the article and the movie. I do not make that assumption. You also assume that my motivation for starting this discussion (the removal of the movie from Debbie Does Dallas) means that I am trying to influence the result. I am not. Nor do I assume that the result of this discussion can be directly applied to other similar situations. I'm really not sure what you think I'm trying to do here, but I'm tired of defending myself. The RfC will go how it goes. Right Hand Drive (talk) 05:06, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
                • You assume that the editors responding will be familar with the article and the movie - No. If you ask "Should a video of this film be embedded in this article?" on the talk page of an article about that film, everybody responding will have had to see what "this film" and "this article" mean if they hadn't already. — Rhododendrites \\ 14:13, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
                  • No matter how the question is phrased, an editor who takes the time to investigate will come to understand that the movie under discussion is a hardcore pornographic movie. The reason for having this discussion at all is because of a disagreement over embedding a hardcore pornographic movie versus linking to it. I see no reason to obscure that the movie under discussion is a hardcore pornographic movie. I haven't advocated any position or result so your concerns about "neutrality" seem to be misplaced. Right Hand Drive (talk) 16:07, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
• Default to no change. This rfc seems pointy to me. Nocturnalnow (talk) 16:00, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
• WP:POINT. Please log on to your normal account and stop using this throw-away user name to push the addition of a film to Debbie Does Dallas. Johnuniq (talk) 00:57, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "Try not to be confrontational. Be friendly and civil, and assume good faith of other editors' actions." Right Hand Drive (talk) 02:46, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
• Remove embedded hardcore porn film from Misplaced Pages article space. Misplaced Pages is not a porn site and should not be hosting porn films; this is WP:COMMONSENSE. I have no opinion on whether a link to Commons should be on the article. Softlavender (talk) 01:22, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

• Replace embedded video with link. This RFC is principally connected to the discussion at Debbie Does Dallas. I do not believe that Right Hand Drive is actually being WP:POINTy (and I don't think it really matters what his true account is at this stage provided this account isn't used explicitly to circumvent the rules), and I think establishing a precedent for dealing with embedded pornographic content would be a welcome development. If this RFC results in removing the video though I do expect him to draw a line under the dispute. Since this article is GA rated then it is reasonable that we should follow the example of GA/FA rated articles. The debate is spread out all other Misplaced Pages at the moment, so it would be beneficial to bring some focus back to the debate and get a binding result in one similar case. I will go through the various arguments one by one:

1. WP:IDONTLIKEIT. OK, thanks for letting us know, but ultimately we don't care.
2. Misplaced Pages does not censor: WP:CENSOR states that being "merely objectionable" is "generally not sufficient grounds for the removal or inclusion of content". In other words, we shouldn't remove content just because it causes offence. This is a policy so it is not negotiable. We don't remove content because it is pornographic. We don't remove content because someone might accidentally click on it and play the video as per the argument put forward at User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Debbie_Does_Dallas. It is these types of arguments that WP:CENSOR prohibits.
3. Misplaced Pages does censor (sort of): The guideline at Misplaced Pages:Offensive material states that "offensive words and offensive images should not be included unless they are treated in an encyclopedic manner. Material that would be considered vulgar or obscene by typical Misplaced Pages readers should be used if and only if its omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternative is available." I don't see this guideline as contradictory to WP:CENSOR, but rather it is clarifying how we should apply it. It is basically saying that inclusion and exclusion should be judged solely in encyclopedic terms i.e. we only include something if it furthers an encyclopedic understanding of the topic. It is also saying that we should be sensitive to a reader's concerns: if the same encyclopedic objective can be achieved without including offensive material then we should favor that option. After all, WP:CENSOR doesn't just prohibit the removal of material on the grounds that it is offensive, it also prohibits the addition of material purely on the grounds it is offensive.
4. Per the arguments put forward at Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(policy)#Should we move full-length movies from article space to Commons?, WP:NOTREPOSITORY states Misplaced Pages is neither a mirror nor a repository of links, images, or media files. Misplaced Pages articles are not merely collections of: Public domain or other source material such as entire books or source code, original historical documents, letters, laws, proclamations, and other source material that are only useful when presented with their original, unmodified wording. It is questionable whether this guideline applies to embedded media files or not, since unlike a text based source a media file only occupies the same physical space in the article regardless of the length of the media i.e. a 2hr movie does not take up any more space than a 90-second clip. That said, the spirit of the guideline probably favors treating media files the same way it treats text: while readers are likely to read a single paragraph excerpt from War and Peace they are not likely to read the whole book if we embedded the text; neither are they likely to watch a full 2hr movie. Shorter media files are debatable: a reader may well listen to a 3-minute song, but probably not a full album. Readers generally come to Misplaced Pages find out something about the subject, not for freebies. This interpretation favors removing all embedded full-length films from Misplaced Pages articles.
5. If readers do come to the article looking for a "freebie" then Misplaced Pages guidelines again provide an explicit answer: WP:ELYES states "An article about a book, a musical score, or some other media should link to a site hosting a legally distributed copy of the work, so long as none of the § Restrictions on linking and § Links normally to be avoided criteria apply." That is short and to the point.

So to cut to the chase I think the weight of policies and guidelines generally suggest we should replace embedded full length films—especially pornographic ones—with a simple, clear, link. The encyclopedic aims of embedding full-length films are not clear to me, and Misplaced Pages:Offensive material recommends not including offensive material in an article unless there is a clear encylopedic gain to doing so.. We provide encyclopedic coverage through secondary sources, and we can complement this with primary source materials as and when it is required i.e. if we need to illustrate something that would be best achieved by showing some portion of the film we can include a short clip. If that clip is pornographic in nature, then per WP:CENSOR so be it, provided showing that particular bit enhances a reader's understanding of what we say in the text of the article. WP:ELYES in conjunction with WP:NOTREPOSITORY also implies that linking to a film rather than embedding it is the preferred course of action. Betty Logan (talk) 01:52, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

• Keep embedded video - This article is about a public domain film, and thus the film itself has higher encyclopedic value than (say) a still image of the title card. Yes, it's pornographic, but that is clear from the first sentence of the article; there is no "astonishment" to consider (i.e. this is not an article on, say, 1910s auto culture), and Misplaced Pages is not censored. Worse comes to worse, we can set the thumbnail time to that of the title card so that no possibly objectionable material is shown.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 04:00, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
• Keep embedded video - The entire article is about the film and the file's in the public domain .... so it kinda makes sense to have the full movie here instead of just a card or link. –Davey2010 05:39, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
• Keep embedded video. It is obviously relevant and useful. I see three arguments raised above:

1. It is "Porn": Misplaced Pages is WP:NOTCENSORED. No one searching for an article on Muhammad can be astonished that it contains content relating to Muhammad (which happens to include images), no one searching for an article on ejaculation can be astonished that it contains content relating to ejaculation (which happens to include a video), no one searching for an article touching on Nazi Germany can be astonished that it contains content relating to Nazis (including flags and other Nazi iconography), and no one reading an article about a pornographic movie can be astonished that it contains content relating to that pornographic movie. Some people may be surprised by NOTCENSORED, but given NOTCENSORED, they cannot be astonished when they search for something and then find content related to exactly what they searched for.
2. WP:ELYES: This is a policy defining acceptable external links. It is a clear misreading of intent to interpret it as imposing some sort of prohibition against otherwise-usable main article content. It is clearly written in the context that 99.9% of everything is under copyright. It explicitly says Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Misplaced Pages article due to copyright issues. The policy is saying that when there is no copyright issue and content can be integrated into the article, it should be.
3. WP:NOTREPOSITORY says Misplaced Pages articles are not merely collections of: (4) Photographs or media files with no accompanying text. If you are interested in presenting a picture, please provide an encyclopedic context, or consider adding it to Wikimedia Commons. If a picture comes from a public domain source on a website, then consider adding it to Misplaced Pages:Images with missing articles or Misplaced Pages:Public domain image resources. The policy prohibits hosting of bare images (or movies), or simple galleries of bare images (or movies). The policy explicitly does not apply to content that is being used to support an article. Furthermore the policy explicitly suggest consider adding it to Misplaced Pages:Images with missing articles - which is explicitly saying the unused content can be here and that it SHOULD be included in an article once that article is written.

It is clear that the opposition here is motivated by the wish to exclude content they view as "objectionable", in flat violation of NOTCENSORED policy. The other arguments are grasping at wikilawyer straws, searching for an excuse to circumvent the clear NOTCENSORED policy. Alsee (talk) 14:39, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Followup note: It is normal for articles to directly contain the contain a full video, in those cases where copyright doesn't prevent it. See Night of the Living Dead and Foolish Wives as examples. This page is clearly being singled out based on opinion about the content itself. Alsee (talk) 23:08, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

• Keep embedded video. It's the obvious way to do things. If people are "astonished" to find that old silent movies included frank sexual content and are now public domain, then Misplaced Pages does a public service in teaching them. Wnt (talk) 16:54, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
• Replace Per WP:Offensive material and WP:LEAST. One would note that even in New York City, the law requires that nudie mags not be visible to minors. "Notcensored" does not mean "plaster sex acts so all the teenagers can see them on their school computers" at all. It means that we use material suited to the needs of the encyclpedia, and that includes the need for rational editorial discretion. Collect (talk) 22:21, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Collect could you clarify your rationale? WP:LEAST explicitly redirects us to WP:Offensive material for this situation, and it looks like WP:Offensive material says it should be included. It says Material that would be considered vulgar or obscene by typical Misplaced Pages readers should be used if and only if its omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternative is available. Can we agree that the movie is relevant to an article about that movie? Can we agree that the movie is extremely informative about that movie? Can we agree that removing it, or any substitute, would be vastly less informative about the movie? Can you answer "no" to those questions in some way that doesn't equally apply to images of explicit famous artwork in articles such as L'Origine_du_monde and The_Dream_of_the_Fisherman's_Wife? Or are you saying we should apply the same "rational editorial discretion" to remove all of those images from Misplaced Pages because they aren't "informative" about the topic? Alsee (talk) 23:31, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

I expect a teacher seeing the embedded clip on a classroom computer would likely be astonished - but your mileage may vary. As for "community standards", I know of no place at all that would consider that film to be proper viewing for a child. Again, your mileage may vary. Collect (talk) 00:52, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

You didn't answer any of my questions. The policy you cited, WP:Offensive material, says it should be included. You have not disputed this. You also failed to respond regarding removal of explicit content from articles on famous artwork, not to mention our articles on human sexuality articles (some of which contain extremely explicit videos). WP:NOTCENSORED says Misplaced Pages may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive—​even exceedingly so. Attempting to ensure that articles and images will be acceptable to all readers, or will adhere to general social or religious norms, is incompatible with the purposes of an encyclopedia. WP:Close policy says The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, those that show no understanding of the matter of issue. You are flatly contradicting established policy, and you don't even dispute it. If you disagree with that policy then you should start a discussion on that policy talk page proposing to change it. Alsee (talk) 14:40, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

RfCs are a very poor place for extended colloquy. "if and only if its omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternative is available. is salient here. As there is no doubt that a Commons link would certainly provide direct access to the material, the "'if and only if" part is what is at issue. Are you suggesting that this use of a link somehow renders the material inaccessible to those who wish to view it? Collect (talk) 15:12, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Removing relevant valuable content from an article on the sole basis that some people find it offensive is invalid under policy. You would get instantly squashed if you went to articles on a explicit historical artworks, Muhammad, or ejaculation, and try to hide those images and videos behind an obscure click-through link in the See Also section. There is no difference here. You appear to acknowledge this is relevant and informative to the article, have offered no rationale for removal other than WP:IDONTLIKEIT and your desire that other people not see it after they searched the subject. Alsee (talk) 18:31, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

An "equally suitable alternative" is available though by providing a link to the video on Commons in the External links section. The purpose of the RFC is to determine whether we provide the video via a link or by embedding it. I suppose the real question is why is embedding the video a superior option? The full film itself is not required to support the claims in the article, but a clearly labelled link makes it available to those who wish to watch it. Betty Logan (talk) 07:20, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

You say "the real question is why is embedding the video a superior option". I find it difficult to comprehend you seriously saying that. Do you think anyone would take you seriously if you said that while removing illustrations of historic artworks from those articles? Alsee (talk) 18:38, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

I find it difficult to comprehend that you cannot see the distinction: if an image is embedded in the article it is immediately there to look at. It can be "consumed" by the reader in a split second. This is not true of film. The video still has to be activated and watched for 90 minutes whether it is embedded in the article or linked to. So my question stands: if a reader wants to watch the film why is supplying a link rather than embedding it not an adequate alternative? Betty Logan (talk) 07:22, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

One problem with a vote against "plastering sex acts so that teenagers can see them" is that it is irrelevant to this question. Whether they click a link then click Play Video, or if they click Play Video, they still can see it. Either way, a person needs to click a button and let the video run. You can cite things that are done per specific censorship drives, but those are also irrelevant -- if the U.S. censors this kind of content, then we'll see WMF take action to prohibit it. But since the U.S. has not censored this kind of content, you don't get to argue that "well, they could have", especially since it's most unclear that they could have given, you know, constitution and all that. Bottom line: we're not here to make busybodies feel good about themselves, we're here to write a comprehensive knowledge resource. Wnt (talk) 13:14, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Can school computers not access Wikimedia Commons? Gamaliel (talk) 17:13, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

• Replace. First off, I question the propriety of including a full-length movie in any article. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia. Encylopaedias contain articles, potentially with illustrations, but Commons is a more appropriate place for full-length content. Secondly, I am astonished although not surprised that many people are advocating that Misplaced Pages prominently host porn. While articles on sexual acts may contain educational depictions of such, a whole movie of porn is unnecessary for the purpose of the article, namely, to provide a synopsis of the film and discuss its release, reception and context, and as such, its inclusion is gratuitous and inappropriate considering the intended purpose and audience of Misplaced Pages. NOTCENSORED does not require us to demonstrate that Misplaced Pages is not censored by plastering up porn at every opportunity. Doing so in the name of NOTCENSORED seems to me ideologically onanistic (pun intended). BethNaught (talk) 22:32, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

It takes a very keen legal mind indeed to be astonished but not surprised. Wnt (talk) 16:05, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

• We include "whole pictures", including animations (and other "whole movies"). I am not convinced there is value in excluding "whole movies", though I would have thought illustrative clips would be better. Similarly hard and fast attempts to exclude "whole poems" have been negative for the encyclopedia.
• To be fair, it is not prominently hosted.
• It's a short film
• The film illustrates the article - which discusses the fragmented scenes of the later part of the film.

In this case I see little harm in embedding the 9 minute film.

On the other hand I am not enamoured of the disruption caused by these discussions. I support Beth's statement that we need not be NOTCENSORED for the sake of it, and Jimbo's to the effect that these are editorial decisions, not ideological ones.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:13, 13 February 2016 (UTC).

• Keep embedded video. This is a historical landmark in film. If teenagers in 2016 are viewing this literally hundred-year-old film for prurient reasons they have bigger problems than we can solve by hiding this piece of film history. Gamaliel (talk) 17:10, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
• Ummmm. This is hard question, but it's not an important question. It's hard because the arguments for and against are both reasonable and the virtues of each are subtle. It's not important because it doesn't matter all that much where you place the film. There's certainly no rule or style guide either forbidding or mandating a particular placement. That leaves us to fall back on precedent, and our own personal ideas of page design. I've been told that other articles do put a click-to-play thumbnail up top. I don't know if this is done universally, usually, or just sometimes, though. And I don't care that much and don't have to since there's no MOS guidance on the issue AFAIK. That throws me back on on my conception of information design. A long time ago I used to do stuff like that for a living, and I'm familiar with a few works on the subject, like Edward Tufte's stuff. My gut feeling is that we ought to replace the current thumbnail with a still, and add a clear link in the External Links section -- one that says (something like) "Full film available here" rather than just a mushy "There's media about this on Commons". It's just a matter of emphasis, and ultimately a matter of opinion. My opinion is that the film is more in the nature "Here's some optional 'extra credit' enrichment material, which we present without comment (but with implied endorsement) in case you want to delve deeper into this subject than you'll find with an encyclopedia article". And stuff like that goes in the External Links section. Herostratus (talk) 23:55, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
• Keep and block the OP. This is as POINTY as it gets. --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 18:13, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
• Replace Strong replace - I also posted a relevant tech question on Jimbo's TP - parents with children under the age of 18 often use kid safe browsers, etc. Are we asking for trouble by embedding porn, and will it result in all of WP being off-limits to children under 18? Not a good thing. Atsme 18:58, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
  • @Atsme: Wouldn't this apply for still images and more medically oriented videos, too (presuming the articles themselves don't trigger such issues)? For example, every file/article at MediaWiki:Bad image list? (To others as well) isn't this about how current policies apply to this specific case rather than how policy should be changed in a way that would affect this case? — Rhododendrites \\ 19:12, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• Rhododendrites, I apologize for not being able to answer your question with full knowledge and understanding of how kid safe browsers work. I would imagine a pornographic image along with certain key words would kick-in the kid safe features. I would also imagine that embedding a pornographic video in the article would be handled much differently by the software than would a link to a video in the EL section, depending on the url or title of the link. We need a tech to help answer these questions. We also need a cost vs benefit analysis considering the current issues regarding REACH, etc. There are still large numbers of adults who are offended by porn and would not expect to see it embedded in a WP article whether we dare to think different or not. On a world-wide scale, it could garner us a reputation for "peddling porn" which would limit our reach considerably and create all kinds of moral/spiritual/religious debate that would be best to avoid. The more I think about the repercussions, the more inclined I am to oppose embedding. I don't think medical articles would be affected unless there are key words that trigger the exclusion in kid safe browsers. Atsme 20:27, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

I'd guess that it doesn't make much difference, either from a technical or actual-protection viewpoint; there is a very very miniscule chance that it could be a problem from a practical political viewpoint, not enough to worry about IMO. I think that parental-control software mostly blocks whole sites; if not, it might allow you block sections (pages, in our sense) either by hand or by keyword, the former which would require an unreasonable amount of effort and the later which -- maybe you could bock the whole page on the basis of the keyword "pornographic" being in the text, but the presence or absence of a movie wouldn't change that. We have Help:Options to hide an image which is actually more insulting than useful, as it offers as first options "simply staying away" or "creating a fork" (well, I should be able to do that on my lunch break with the change under the seat cushions). And if you still want to read the encyclopedia for some reason, well, you are a computer programmer, right? in which case you can write the following code... Sheesh.

We're not talking about having or not having the movie, just where to place it and what the link should look like (thumbnail or text link). So it doesn't really matter. In addition, we have hella porn in other places, just mostly still images. So the only tiny difference it placing the movie in an external link makes it a very tiny amount less likely that a reporter would find it or consider it offensive (as being in the body of the article). That's sufficient for your vote to stand, I suppose, but really there's no significant difference. Herostratus (talk) 01:11, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

I understand but the part that is being overlooked is what benefit it serves to have an embedded porn video in an encyclopedic article vs adding a link to Commons at the bottom. If WP starts allowing porn videos in its articles, I doubt it will be limited to classic, or nostalgic porn. WP will be inundated with porn, and then we'll not just have parental blocks, we'll have entire school district blocks, and possibly even countries blocking WP because of religious beliefs. This issue requires foresight and a long hard look at the big picture, not just a centralized focus on this one article. A cost vs benefit analysis would help but I still believe a Commons link is the way to go in order to keep WP free of potential blocks. If there's not a big difference between embedding and linking to Commons, why are we even having this discussion? Link to Commons and let's be done with it. Atsme 02:19, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

@Atsme: You're trying to sell us a bridge here. You have a couple of planks set up by the side of a gorge and you're saying "look, it's easy. Just buy into it." But if we're to not have any pages that some country might object to, then we ought to look toward the middle part of that gorge before we pony up our money. Think of all the content we have now that would not meet that standard. Also, you can say we risk being overrun with public domain porn. Alas, that's not actually the case. In case you haven't noticed, the problem with the public domain is they're not making any more of it. There are no more renewal requirements, no more copyright expirations. So you are not being honest either about the feasibility of this idea, nor of the need for it. Wnt (talk) 13:36, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

@Wnt: I am being perfectly honest; it's not my nature to be otherwise. I simply have an opposing view. The more I researched the pornography aspects of WP, the more disconcerting it became. Perhaps the topic in general needs a closer review, especially considering the damage caused by repeated bad press over the long term. It is certainly not helpful or supportive of the intended direction of the project unless the goal is to turn Misplaced Pages into Wikipornia. Portal:Pornography gives me pause - especially considering how WP encourages and supports child editors and school involvement while at the same time wants to make WP a safe place for them to contribute and learn. Regardless of my views on the topic, WP reaches an entire world of people of all ages, and each country/community views pornography differently. I stated my position and why, and I actually prefer to leave it at that if the discussion is going to turn ugly. If you want community input on the topic in general, try Village Pump. It may actually prove beneficial. Atsme 14:29, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Atsme, regarding your comment on RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, Misplaced Pages policy says Attempting to ensure that articles and images will be acceptable to all readers, or will adhere to general social or religious norms, is incompatible with the purposes of an encyclopedia.

As for being "inundated with porn", Offensive material policy limits any such content to Notable topics where where someone specifically searching for that article may reasonably find the content a valuable and relevant asset to that article.

If you want to remove the ejaculation video from that article, if you want to remove the image from the The Dream of the Fisherman's Wife article, or remove the image of Michelangelo's painting of The Creation of Adam from article Sistine Chapel, or remove the video from this article for the reasons you gave, then go to the policy page and start an RFC to change policy. Until then Closing Policy directs closers to disregard arguments that flatly contradict established policy. Alsee (talk) 14:25, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Alsee you must not be familiar with WP:IAR. With regards to censorship, it is applied all the time to fringe/ps views. Regardless, this RfC is not about censorship. It's about whether or not to include an entire movie or link to it elsewhere. State your position like everyone else is doing and let the closer determine the outcome. You and I certainly can't make that decision in a discussion criticizing my decision to support an EL rather than embed the video. Happy editing! Atsme 14:40, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

• Keep embedded video - Misplaced Pages is WP:NOTCENSORED. The video itself does not auto-play and the initial image is non-pornographic. In fact I don't see any pornographic images on the page. There's no unreasonable shock when viewing the page and the video itself adds to the understanding of the subject. Would that all film pages had the video embedded. We have much more explicit content on other pages. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 00:14, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
• Replace with link or replace with initial fragment of movie and link - rather than focusing on WP:NOTCENSORED, I would consider the article composition aspect. Just because we have the full movie available, does it mean we should show it in the article? Similarly, instead of some illustrative verses or quotes from a book or study, we grab the whole thing from WikiSource and place it in the respective article? As per WP:COMMONSENSE, an encyclopedic article about a porn movie does not need to show the full movie, even if there are no license issues like in this case.--Mondiad (talk) 05:00, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Mondiad, are you saying that we should remove the completely non-controversial videos from Night of the Living Dead, Foolish Wives and hunt down every other such article to strip out these valuable public domain videos??? Alsee (talk) 13:25, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Actually, Night of the Living Dead was also controversial at the time it came out. It's only ex post facto that some busybodies decided that getting chewed up by zombies was normal fare but looking at bouncing breasts is somehow pathological. Wnt (talk) 13:39, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

@Alsee:, I am saying that since this is an encyclopedia and not some media-sharing portal or some online movie watching tool. We have to stick to the encyclopedic nature and values.--Mondiad (talk) 14:38, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

Ouch, this is going to be a tough close. At this writing, by my count (if I'm not mistaken) it stands 9-7 (I'm not counting the RfC initiatior User:Right Hand Drive, since he didn't vote; if you include him it's 10-7), the 9 (or 10) favoring showing the movie as a click-to-play thumbnail in the body of the text, the 7 favoring a link down in the External Links section.

Supposing it stays that way, that's not enough of a difference to much matter. It's not a supermajority either way.

There's no rule (policy or guideline) involved here. Is everyone clear on that? There's nothing in WP:MOS, or WP:NOTCENSORED, or WP:PROFANE, or WP:NOTREPOSITORY or any other rule that militates one way or the other where in an article we place a link to a film. I think everyone would pretty much agree on that.

That throws us back on precedent, and strength of argument. I dunno if there's a strong precedent either way, or how much that matters since we're discussion this in a lot more detail than it's been discussed for other articles, I bet; this is an RfC after all.

Strength of argument? Well, both sides make fair points. I think a reasonable person would conclude that neither "side" has a clearly stronger argument, that is, one that most any fair-minded, neutral, intelligent, and informed stranger would be compelled to avow is correct. Right? I think that's a fair assessment.

So then what?

The usual -- lazy -- way is to default to "Well, we can't agree what to do. So, as usual, we do nothing". That always struck me as... mediocre. The article is in a particular format because someone (who probably stopped editing long ago) set it that way during the Carter administration or whenever, and nobody much noticed or cared, so that's that. The person could even be dead for all we know (I didn't go thru the history),and if that's so, wow, talk about the dead hand... I do not wish to be ruled by dead people...

I'd like to suggest something else, and since this question is -- let's face it -- about as unimportant as an RfC is ever gonna be, why not. The person closing should go to Random.org and generate a random number, even the proposition succeeds (replace the thumbnail), odd it fails... I'm dead serious about this. Herostratus (talk) 10:41, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages good articles
• Media and drama good articles
• Old requests for peer review
• Misplaced Pages Did you know articles that are good articles
• All unassessed articles
• GA-Class film articles
• GA-Class Silent films articles
• Silent films task force articles
• GA-Class American cinema articles
• American cinema task force articles
• WikiProject Film articles
• GA-Class Pornography articles
• High-importance Pornography articles
• GA-Class High-importance Pornography articles
• WikiProject Pornography articles
• GA-Class Sexology and sexuality articles
• Low-importance Sexology and sexuality articles
• WikiProject Sexology and sexuality articles
• Misplaced Pages requests for comment