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World Order of Baha'u'llah

I added a long quote about the roles of the Guardian and the Universal House of Justice. The issue of which quotes to add and where was becoming an issue on the BUPC page and I thought having this here would be relevant, and avoid the argument being repeated on several pages.

The quote is long, but I couldn't think of any way to shrink its size without removing something critical. Cuñado - Talk 06:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

It does open up the question of whether the Institution exists separately from the individual serving in that capacity. Does the institution exist without a serving member? Clearly Remey/Marangella et. al. insist that it does not. Clearly the Baha'is assert that it does.

We should not debate this here. If either posistion can present clear documentation for either position, that should be presented and discussed.

On the oft-quoted sentence from Shoghi Effendi: "Divorced from the institution of the Guardianship ..." (emphasis added), this does not logically support the position that the individual is inseparable from the institution as it does not discuss the individual serving, but the institution and the hereditary principle behind it. If the Remeyite position is characterized as relying on this, then that's perfectly legitimate. But it can not be characterized as proving the point. This page deserves the opportunity for each side to succinctly present its case.

On the Baha'i side, quotations will be needed that demonstrate that the various institutions exist outside the individuals serving on any of them; e.g. the station "Manifestation of God" exists whether or not Baha'u'llah is here or not.

Totally aside, could we remove the Baha'i template? Seems POV on this particular page. MARussellPESE 16:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe the following quote is relevant for the section "Roles of the Guardian and the Universal House of Justice" because it addresses both issues of the guardianship and the elected body of the UHJ:

By this House is meant the Universal House of Justice, that is, in all countries a secondary House of Justice must be instituted, and these secondary Houses of Justice must elect the members of the Universal one. Unto this body all things must be referred. It enacteth all ordinances and regulations that are not to be found in the explicit Holy Text. By this body all the difficult problems are to be resolved and the Guardian of the Cause of God is its sacred head and the distinguished member for life of that body. Should he not attend in person its deliberations, he must appoint one to represent him. Should any of the members commit a sin, injurious to the common weal, the Guardian of the Cause of God hath at his own discretion the right to expel him, whereupon the people must elect another one in his stead. This House of Justice enacteth the laws and the government enforceth them. The legislative body must reinforce the executive, the executive must aid and assist the legislative body so that through the close union and harmony of these two forces, the foundation of fairness and justice may become firm and strong, that all the regions of the world may become even as Paradise itself. (Will and Testament, pp. 14,15)

If Misplaced Pages is a place for different views to be expressed in a neutral way so that the reader can come to their own conclusions, then I don't see how the above quote can be excluded from this section. What are the reasons to exclude this quote? Davecornell 16:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Beynd being excessively wordy — which editing could take care of — this doesn't identify the Guardianship with the individual. Note that `Abdul-Bahá is referring to the Guardian as the institution, not to Shoghi Effendi himself.

We're not going to convince each other here, but we can keep each other from editorializing into the article things that the documents don't actually say. MARussellPESE 17:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

In relation to the flow of the article, its relevant points are that the Guardian and the House of Justice are distinctly different (already covered in WOB), that the Guardian can expel members of the House of Justice (not entirely relevant, point can be added in-text), and you think `Abdu'l-Baha is suggesting that literally every single country must have an NSA before the House can be elected.

To the last point, besides its obvious logical fallacy, the quote simply says that in the future every country should have an NSA (National House of Justice), and that the Universal House of Justice is elected by all the NSA's of the world, two separate points. Not to mention its contradicted by Shoghi Effendi's plans that the ten year crusade would be followed by a series of plans under the House of Justice, and for someone that wrote in incredible detail about the most minute details of the administration, Shoghi Effendi never mentioned this requirement. And if you read on in the Will, `Abdu'l-Baha makes another statement which clarifies that the election is from all countries in which Baha'is are found.

"By this House is meant that Universal House of Justice which is to be elected from all countries, that is from those parts in the East and West where the loved ones are to be found, after the manner of the customary elections in Western countries such as those of England." (`Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 19)

More importantly, Shoghi Effendi said:

"...the establishment of the Supreme House of Justice is in no way dependent upon the adoption of the Bahá'í Faith by the mass of the peoples of the world, nor does it presuppose its acceptance by the majority of the inhabitants of any one country. In fact, 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Himself, in one of His earliest Tablets, contemplated the possibility of the formation of the Universal House of Justice in His own lifetime, and but for the unfavorable circumstances prevailing under the Turkish regime, would have, in all probability, taken the preliminary steps for its establishment. It will be evident, therefore, that given favorable circumstances, under which the Bahá'ís of Persia and of the adjoining countries under Soviet rule, may be enabled to elect their national representatives, in accordance with the guiding principles laid down in 'Abdu'l-Bahá's writings, the only remaining obstacle in the way of the definite formation of the International House of Justice will have been removed." (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 7)

See also:

"With these Assemblies, local as well as national, harmoniously, vigorously, and efficiently functioning throughout the Bahá'í world, the only means for the establishment of the Supreme House of Justice will have been secured. And when this Supreme Body will have been properly established, it will have to consider afresh the whole situation, and lay down the principle which shall direct, so long as it deems advisable, the affairs of the Cause.(Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, p. 40)

And of course:

" 'At whatever time all the beloved of God in each country appoint their delegates, and these in turn elect their representatives, and these representatives elect a body, that body shall be regarded as the Supreme Baytu'l-'Adl (Universal House of Justice).' " (`Abdu'l-Baha quoted in Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, p. 84)

One more, dated 1941:

"At this time when the National Assemblies in the Cause are not yet functioning sufficiently or fully representative of all the various important elements within it, and when some of the Bahá'ís are not even free to practise their faith, despite their numbers, it is quite impracticable to seek to establish the Universal House of Justice. Whenever conditions permit, it will be established. (Shoghi Effendi, Dawn of a New Day, p. 95)

Cuñado - Talk 18:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The reason I thought the above quote should be included is that it talks about the relationship between the guardian and the Universal House of Justice which is the subject of this section. I would be fine with just the following from the Will and Testament:

By this House is meant the Universal House of Justice....Unto this body all things must be referred. It enacteth all ordinances and regulations that are not to be found in the explicit Holy Text. By this body all the difficult problems are to be resolved and the Guardian of the Cause of God is its sacred head and the distinguished member for life of that body. Should he not attend in person its deliberations, he must appoint one to represent him. Should any of the members commit a sin, injurious to the common weal, the Guardian of the Cause of God hath at his own discretion the right to expel him, whereupon the people must elect another one in his stead.

Personally this discussion seems more fitting for the Universal House of Justice page rather than Baha'i Divisions. Davecornell 21:45, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think this really adds new material. The WOB selection is really thorough in defining the relationship between these institutions. And it doesn't address the key question of institution vs. individual. MARussellPESE 19:15, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

"...the Guardian of the Cause of God is its sacred head and the distinguished member for life of that body."

If we're talking about members who sit on the UHJ and the Guardian is one of those members, to me this says it's an individual, not an institution, that's to be at its head. Davecornell 20:04, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Guardian/UHJ stuff & equal say

This is not meant to sidetrack here, but the BUPC (and the rest of Remey's followers, FTM) have a basic belief about all this Guardian/true UHJ stuff, and if I may, I'd like to cut to the chase of it. We believe the IBC with Mason should have by all accounts assumed control of the Faith, and was the legitimate UHJ in it's infant (1st stage) state. That body's authority was usurped (we believe) by the Hands who took control of the situation. Mason said why he went along with them, and yet that's not reflected, only that he signed the declarations, blah blah blah. Now there's a UHJ that didnt go through the specifically stated stages, didn't evolve from the IBC, etc. There's no Guardian as it's president; a clear stipulation in the Will (I know, debateable, I get it). We'd like to have all this reflected as a notable contradiction (that we see) into this page. All attempts to write this in have been sabotaged. There is now ample say from the Haifans as to why we are all so full of it, and confused. But, as we can show that this is what we believe, I contend that it should be in the page. The issue of our beliefs about the first IBC being usurped is not in the page, and to make specific allegations in the BUPC section have been squashed time and again. There are two sides to each of these issues, and yet this page is completely dominated by only one of them. Of all places, this should be the one where this issues surrounding these matters are presented equally. Where can we find peace with this? Jeff 09:11, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I think we all need to leave this article alone for a bit while the discussion's going on. I think it was bad form to yank the template without any more discussion than my raising the question.

Jeff, your edit on Jensen's "sign" in the BUPC section is unverifiable as it stands. Please correct the link and provide a page number. (I really want to see one. That's a huge article.) I'm sorely tempted to remove it as unverifiable. (Probably why Cunado did.) If this supports all the Remeyite groups' opinions shouldn't it go in the CMR section? If it's the BUPC's, isn't that already covered there making it redundant here?

I think the CMR section is quite clear on his attitudes viz. the Hands and rest of the community. He's clear that he thinks the Hands were wrong, and that he commanded obedience. It quotes him directly and specifically to the point, so how could it be under-selling his position?

Also, this view of CMR at the head of a 1st stage embryonic house isn't universally shared by all of the Remeyite groups, so I don't think you'd get it past King's followers or the Remey Society if you start quoting Jensen as a spokesman for all y'all on that point. That'd give Marangella's followers heartburn too. That's not "Haifan" censorship, it's your own painful disintegration frankly.

As you all follow CMR, you'll need to quote him and you've already got a place in the article to do it in. (The paragraph beginning "Remey went on to establish ..." would be the place.) But I can't see that saying Remey thought they usurped him adds anything new. It's already crystal clear that neither he nor any of y'all accept the Custodians or House of Justice.

We are way beyond undue weight already. Again there are whole suites of articles that address the various Remeyite groups' history, beliefs, sources, etc., where there's no "due weight" given to the Baha'is that outnumber y'all by orders of magnitude. Nor should there be. Those articles don't concern the "Haifans". But here "equal weight" is just not appropriate. That's not "Haifan censorship" either, that's Misplaced Pages policy. MARussellPESE 20:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about the template, didnt mean to twist anyone's panties over it. As there's 3 or 4 contributors to this page, where one pointed it out, and I agreed, it looked like a no brainer. Don't worry though, MARussell, that'll be the last time I ever agree with you on anything. I won't make that mistake again.

1. If you'd bother to check, the diddy about the Guardian being a sign is in the introduction page to the book that is linked to; it's not a "huge article", it's a 37 chapter book that our Page 10 Publishing Trust has provided for free on that site. The URL links right to the intro. Maybe I should have quoted it to be more specific:"The Covenant-breakers did away with the executive head, replacing it with a headless monster on Mt. Carmel, and oppress their deluded followers from coming under the true House of Justice that has both the executive branch, or head, and legislative body." I was only paraphrasing in the article. Which would you prefer?
2. The reason I brought this all up, is simple. I've quoted Ministry where the Hands themselves claimed they "seized the helm of the Faith", and it's been continually removed. That's their own words. I can't (nor do I care to) speak for the other groups on this, but nowhere does this article address the BUPC's fundamental concern of why the affairs of the Faith weren't passed onto the only group with the legitimate authority to do so: the IBC. I'm sure you have a head-full of propaganda to explain it away, but so far noone has in the article. I appreciate your graciousness in allowing this verifiable belief of ours to remain in our section, and I challenge y'all to answer to it. Explaining that the Hands (who like on a body cease to exist once the head dies) took this and that action only goes half way to the core of this particular concern. It's a glaringly obvious violation of the Covenant to usurp powers like this, and just because the magnitude of sheep went along with it doesn't make it right.
3. Your refutation of our groups is lacking in specific ways, and I intend to point them out in the article, so be prepared. One: you're lying to say that the UHJ was set up according to Effendi's instructions, as he specifically instructed that the IBC would "efflourence" into the UHJ, which it wasn't allowed to do; yet you claim this "election" was following the plan of the 10 year crusade-LIE. The 10 year Crusade involved the IBC becoming the UHJ. Two: your administration has no executive branch and yet makes no attempt to answer to this violation. Three: no writings about the adminstration ever make room for a lack of an excutive branch-in every case they are to work in close union with one another. Omissions of facts are the same a lying. Jeff 08:14, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Respond to your "challenges"? This talk page is not a debate to convince each other. The page is for verifiable facts, and you have been free to add them at any time, considering relevancy and weight. If I thought that it would somehow contribute to the article, or relieve you of the sickness that is festering in your mind, I would love to give you a detailed response to each point you raised. But logic and emotion are two separate things. Cuñado - Talk 08:36, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I could care less what your indoctrinators filled your head with to engage in debates with, I'm challenging you to attempt to address these obvious ommissions in the article. I already know what your responses to these things will be, smarty pants. Does this look like my first rodeo? I'm "challenging" you to address them in the article, not here. They are the crux issues. None of the groups object what the Will says, but y'all have filled this article with your interpretations of the Will and the Writings, and act as if it's NPOV. These crux issues are not in the article. This article doesn't give an honest view of why these groups broke away by omitting and censoring these concerns which are legitimate questions to ask of a Faith that waves the Independant Investigation flag, and yet attacks anyone who questions the authority of these phony institutions. And you clowns are contributing to it. If there's nothing to hide, then what's your problem? Jeff 09:25, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Jeff, it's precisely becuase there are several editors here at the same time that there are no no-brainer edits.

I'm asking for page numbers from everybody. You don't want to slog through Ministry looking for a specific passage any more than I want to slog through Over the Wall. Please observe the exhaustive citations on the Bahá'í material. It's not just Chicago Manual of Style, it's courteous to each other and the readers.

Please refer to WP:NOT. This isn't a place for debate. If we wanted to paste everything ever written and note every last objection, then we might as well post all of Taherzadeh, Ministry, Revelation of Baha'u'llah, you'd reproduce Over the Wall; and we'd all go on ad nauseum. I confined my specifics to two items: the Hands ratification and the possibility of a "Headless" House. These address specific, key, points in Remey's arguments; and are intended to be illustrative, not exhaustive. They do, in fact, address the "four stage plan" argument frankly. If you feel these are not amply clarified, see what you can do; but expanding the debate much beyond that gets into WP:NOT.

Again, you have plenty of real estate to make BUPC-specific arguments. This page isn't the place for that level of detail for the reasons I've already noted: WP:NPOV#Undue weight and that the BUPC is not the only successor group with an opinion, and they differ from yours.

As an aside, at no time did the Hands collectively or the Custodians claim that they'd "seized the helm of their faith". The only place anything like that expression is to be found is in the preface to Ministry and reads: " found themselves called upon to seize the helm of their Faith, protect it from dissolution and schism, ..." (p. xix). This isn't authoritative as it's Ruhiyyih Khanum's personal opinion and is explicitly in the context of preserving the plan (which was their job) and responding to Remey's actions (also their job). If you want to add this, it'll need to be in that context. MARussellPESE 15:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Jeffmichaud says that the crux of the argument is 1) why didn't power go to the IBC? 2) why was a the House elected without becoming a court first? 3) why is there no executive branch with the House of Justice in Haifa? The true crux of the argument is that Shoghi Effendi died without having appointed a successor Guardian, as he couldn't have without going outside of the guidelines set for him in `Abdu'l-Baha's Will. What to do next?

1) Why would the power go to the IBC? According to Mason Remey, he was the Guardian after Shoghi Effendi, so authority should have gone to him, not the IBC. Otherwise the Faith under Shoghi Effendi would have been incorrectly set up. According to the logic of your question, the authority of the Faith under Shoghi Effendi was vested in the IBC with Mason Remey as president. In addition, if the IBC has the Guardian as its president, then Shoghi Effendi should have been the president of the IBC set up in 1951. And as a follow up, where in any writings does it say that the headship of the Faith should be given to an appointed IBC? The nature of the question is suggesting a reference to the real question: who should have authority in the absence of the Guardian? Your suggestion that it should be the IBC is contradictory with your idea that Mason Remey was the Guardian.

2) Becoming recognized as a court is a reference to the Israeli system in which each religious community in Israel is organized in their own governmental system, even though they live in overlapping geographical areas. Even today in Jerusalem Jews and Arabs have a completely segregated police and fire systems. Two neighbours, one Jewish and one Arab, will call different police organizations when they need help, and they will go to different court sytems. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Druze, and others all have their own system. Shoghi Effendi wanted to establish a Baha'i system in Israel. This part of the plan was completely external to the Baha'i administration, in other words it was dependent upon non-Baha'i entities. In practice this step became impossible and impracticle, and instead of letting the entire administration collapse as a result of non-Baha'i requirements, they decided to go straight to the next stage: an elected body. Nowhere does Shoghi Effendi say that the House cannot be elected without the IBC becoming a court.

3) This answer is simple. There is an appointed/executive branch of the administration. The Hands of the Cause and the House of Justice all collaborated to create the Institution of the Counselors, which has at its head nine appointed individuals (like the custodians), with each of 80+ counselors appointing auxiliaries, which appoint assistants to work at local levels. More importantly, just as Shoghi Effendi never made legislation and worked within his sphere of jurisdiction by not appointing a Guardian outside of the requirements of the W&T, the House of Justice has continued to not perform interpretive functions and has worked within its defined sphere of jurisdcition by enacting legislation on matters not explicitly defined in the text, including the situation in which all male descendants of Baha'u'llah have been excommunicated.

And yet there are uncountable issues that are not addressed by Mason Remey's followers. Then comes the enormous deceptions that Jensen introduced. But like I said, this is not a place for debate amongst ourselves. Bottom line: the article page is for verifiable facts, and your edits to date have been extremely poor referenced and largely irrelevant from the real crux of the issues. Cuñado - Talk 17:58, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Cunado, you are so good at talking in circles without actually saying anything. I've only seen this level of skill once or twice. I thought I mentioned not to bother trying to convince me here. Just because you can convinces yourself so you can sleep at night was not what I am looking for. I'd like to add these matters to the article:

1. Specifically I think the 1951 cablegram that announces the formation of the IBC is worth mentioning as he points out that it was this body that was to "efflourence" into the UHJ, and that it was this body that Effendi aticipated becoming the UHJ.
2. The institution of the Councellors is not a body recognized anywhere in the Covenant; we have Hands creating a Head which is specifically why we feel it's operating outside the Covenant.
3. Quote from the Will that the guardian is the "sacred head and member for life" of the Body.

None of these answers are simple, except if you're a simpleton. Just because y'all find it easy to dismiss these matters, they are the very reasons for the schism, which is not simple or trite. This page, which should be explaining the divisions is filled with non-essentials about the specific groups, without getting specific about these things. Jeff 18:42, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, apparently it needs saying here too: Jeff, please be civil. "Twisting panties", "smarty pants", "simpleton", etc., drag the whole tone down.

Each of your three points are well-known BUPC positions. (I presume your second point you meant "Custodians", not "Councellors".) All you'll have to do is demonstrate that these are universal positions for all the Remeyite groups. Unfortunately, I think that'll be hard (Because I think Jensen is the author of all these interpretations.); but please see what you can do.

This article can't possibly deal with each and every groups' unique posistions. There just isn't room. It appears you want to dominate it with your BUPC perspective, which, for the third time, Jeff, you have ample space to do so on your group's various articles.

On your three points: all three are asked-and-answered in Ministry, and clarified in various letters from the House of Justice; but I don't want to drag all of those out for the same space considerations that I think apply to all the Remeyite groups. MARussellPESE 19:18, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I know, I'm horrible. I can't control it. It must be due to "the sickness that is festering in mind" or something. Jeff 07:08, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

No, but your ongoing conduct on the BUPC article and talk page is spilling over to here, and it's not appreciated in either place. MARussellPESE 14:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I would answer those points if it contributes to the article. I was planning on adding things to the article, but I can't do everything at once.

The House's job is to create legislation as circumstances require, to bring flexibility for just such circumstances. The quote about the "member for life" is irrelevant to the discussion. It does not address the situation in which there is no Guardian. Cuñado - Talk 19:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

What about citing the "sacred head and member for life" quote and then say the Haifa viewpoint that "they believe this to be irrelevant because it does not address the situation in which there is no Guardian" or something to that effect?

Also regarding Cunado's statement:

"There is an appointed/executive branch of the administration. The Hands of the Cause and the House of Justice all collaborated to create the Institution of the Counselors, which has at its head nine appointed individuals (like the custodians), with each of 80+ counselors appointing auxiliaries, which appoint assistants to work at local levels."

Is that verifiable, that the Institution of the Counselors with its nine appointed individuals is considered the executive of the Faith, or is that an opinion? If it's documented I would like to see the source and reference. Davecornell 21:46, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

American Problems ambiguity

In the section about American problems, the phrase "Effendi expelled them" is ambiguous. To whom does "them" refer? D021317c 17:01, 19 April 2006 (EDT)

A timeout? And some sanity... please?

Dear friends,

Most of those arguing here accept the authority of the Master and the Guardianship of Shoghi Effendi, and do not dispute their authority to command. Also, the various participants here represent differing views of succession, and therefore are, to each other, Covenant-Breakers. If we all believe in the above two, why are we actually engaging in debate over the details of the Covenant, which Shoghi Effendi asked us not to do.

The Master asked us not to associate with Covenant-Breakers, with Shoghi Effendi allowing for doing business with Covenant-Breakers, as long as we keep to the "business at hand" and do not get into discussions attempting to convince each other. While I am not perfect in this regard, please let us not enter into such debates, in deference and obedience to the Master whom we all love, and to Shoghi Effendi who holds our deepest respect and admiration. The tones of such debates, even beyond their basic impermissibility, cannot but fall into angry condemnation - especially when they are quickly replied-to and given from a place of frustration.

There are plenty of articles that present the views of the participants. These cross-over articles where we all intersect need to be in summary form to encapsulate the argument, allowing for the reader to link through the main articles for details. Please don't respond to this comment with "but he's wrong" or "all I meant to say was...". I don't care. I'm not paying attention, not even to the arguments that I agree with. I'm putting this out there as one who loves Abd'ul-Baha and Baha'u'llah, and would dearly love to see us not make fools of Them, nor act out of a hostile spirit. I am not immune from my own criticism. I have posted more than one comment out of frustration or irritation. I'm personally vowing to stop it - right here, right now, and throwing down the gauntlet to all who claim to love Baha'u'llah.

I propose a small timeout. Take three days and make no edits, re-think the article in the context of summarization of the divergence, with detailed pages on specific beliefs linked to in main templates. This is standard wiki style, good form, and should allow us to stop actually interacting EXCEPT around the specific business of making good wiki articles. We should not, either by Misplaced Pages policy, nor by Abd'ul-Baha's policies, be interacting with each other in an apologetic fashion. That statement is true whether we are obedient to the Universal House of Justice in Haifa, Neal Chase, sIBC, Joel Marangella, or any other claimant to Baha'u'llah's Faith's leadership. We may not think each other are Baha'is, but we believe we are, ourselves, Baha'is. In that case, we should act like Baha'is.

With sincerest regards, Christian Edward Gruber 21:15, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

revert

I couldn't fit it all in an edit summary, so I'll explain here. My deletion of Dave adding a quote from the W&T was because it was very misplaced and in fact irrelevant to the section. The section was about a break in the line of Guardians, and he expanded on the comment that "Mason Remey and his successors asserted that a living Guardian is essential for the Bahá'í community, and that the Bahá'í Writings required it." by adding the quote about the Guardian being the head and member for life of the House of Justice.

The roles of the Guardianship and the House are already clearly defined by Shoghi Effendi himself on the page. The quote about the Guardian being a member of the House of Justice is not really relevant to any of the arguments on the page. There are hundreds of relevant quotes and some discipline has to be maintained. Cuñado - Talk 17:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

"And now, concerning the House of Justice which God hath ordained as the source of all good and freed from all error... By this body all the difficult problems are to be resolved and the Guardian of the Cause of God is its sacred head and the distinguished member for life of that body."

(The Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Bahá, p. 14)

The quote from Abdu'l-Baha belongs on this page. It's the basis for the modern-day Baha'i Division--one side sees the necessity for a Guardian as a member of the UHJ, the other side sees future guardians as unnecessary.

The quote should remain in the "Break in the Line of Guardians" for NPOV reasons. There is nothing to contrast against the UHJ quote about the discontinuation of the guardianship. The juxtaposition of the W&T quote against the UHJ statement is appropriate and is what Misplaced Pages is all about. Every other attempt to insert the W&T quote in any other section has been snuffed.

If Cunado feels there are too many quotes, he can edit the long quote from World Order of Baha'u'llah he inserted in the "Relationship between the Guardianship and the Universal House of Justice" section. Davecornell 18:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Dave, I don't think the "head for life" concept is part of all the Remeyite groups' doctrine. Could you please identify either a direct statement of Remey's, or other sources. I'd have to agree with Cunado's removal unless there is something that says this is universal. Remey's declaration, which is his clearest statement, does not address this. If the "head for life" doctrine is Jensen's innovation, then it belongs in the BUPC articles.

If, and I'd really like to see some documentation on that, this is, in fact shared by all the Remeyite groups, then that is a good place for it. It raises the question, in the context of "belief" that the House then answers. This would enhance the article, again, if the belief is more than the BUPC's.

Dave's done good job presenting basically NPOV edits here. These edits actually clarify the Hands' position and add sources. He even reverts himself. I quibble over some words, and disagree with this one, but on the whole they're sound. MARussellPESE 18:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Dave, the quote is not "the basis for the modern-day Baha'i Division". Awhile ago the "crux of the issue", according to Jeff, was 1) why didn't power go to the IBC? 2) why was the House elected without becoming a court first? 3) why is there no executive branch with the House of Justice in Haifa?

All these are sidenotes to the real issue, which is Remey's claim to being the Guardian. I'm not even sure how to respond to your proposal that it all hangs on this quote from the W&T. This seems to be your personal opinion. The role/necessity of the Guardian, the Baha'i court issue, the current structure of Baha'i administration... these are all of secondary importance. You don't have free reign to define what is important and what isn't (nor do I), and this has nothing to do with a desire to suppress negativity towards the House of Justice and my own beliefs. I honestly think the quote is irrelevant and doesn't address the issues on the page. The long quote from World Order is relevant in that it defines the roles of the two institutions, and the "divorced from the institution of the Guardianship" was a quote that Jeff wanted to put on every page. Saying that the Guardian is a member of the House of Justice is not the same as saying that the House of Justice must have a Guardian as a member, which is what you are proposing to interpret it as. Cuñado - Talk 22:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The belief that the Guardian is a necessary member of the UHJ is in "Over the Wall". If I find it in Mason Remey's verifiable writings, I'll reference it. Davecornell 01:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

"Schaefer dispute"

I pulled "Schaefer also started a dispute by questioning the concept of infallibility." for two reasons:

1. This page is about actual divisions of the Baha'i faith, not about differences of opinion over doctrine that don't rise to that level.
2. There isn't a citation that identifies this article actually caused a "dispute". Schaefer is a respected member of the Baha'i community around the world.

Mipago, you posted this. Do you have something in mind that addresses both? MARussellPESE 04:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought the same thing about this. I'm of the opinion that everything below the "Conclusion" section is irrelevent and off topic, as none of it covers happenings of events that led to a "division". Why stop with that one sentence? Juan Cole? Who cares. He has a page. Disputes? Can we bring all "Other disputes" forward? I don't think any of it belongs here. Jeff 05:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

That section appears to be a catch-all for anybody who's ever had a personal gripe with mainstream Baha'i administration. The numbers of people involved in say the Talisman episode (about a dozen if memory serves) is an order of magnitude or more less than the total number of followers in the various Remey successor groups. Talk about undue weight. There're even notes of individuals (Sen McGlinn, Allison Marshall, etc.) whose ideas/activities never raised a ripple in the mainstream community.

However, no mainstream Baha'i could consign this to electronic oblivion without being blasted for bias no matter how clearly they stood on Misplaced Pages policies. And, having a place here does keep the other various Baha'i articles from being cluttered up with individual items.

This whole section could be carved out into a separate article if it's not to be deleted, but it shouldn't be called "Baha'i controversies" or such. In reality, outside of those involved with Talisman and one national convention, these individuals never were part of the communities collective consciousness. Calling it "Baha'is who messed with Leroy Brown" might actually be closer to reality, but unprofessional to say the least. Before it gets carved out, if that's consensus, could we agree to a name first? Perhaps "Conflicts with Baha'i Administration"? MARussellPESE 15:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with MARussellPESE that any mainstream Baha'i who deletes such a section would be blasted for bias, but really as a handful of people, they are really a very very small minority view, and non-notable for the creation of a new page. I would thus suggest to keep the information here, so that there is no argument of censorship. -- Jeff3000 15:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it should stay here. If it's on the verge of being deleted, then it certainly doesn't deserve its own page. Cuñado - Talk 05:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

All good points MARussell. It's just always seemed akward to me that there's a conclusion, and then more about a bunch of nothing. I was just tossing the idea out there in case anyone else felt the same way and hadn't mentioned it. Juan Cole has his page with no less than fifty other pages linking to it. His Talismam site is all but dead. And, as has been noted, these are personal gripes which never amounted to anything. But, if there needs to be a drainage ditch, this is as good a place as any. Jeff 05:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)