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Untitled

What are Jenny's views on creationism being taught in schools? From the statement in the article it is not clear though it seems to hint that she is pro-creationism.

(The external link to the Epolitix article makes clear that Jenny Tonge is opposed to creationism.)194.75.128.2 15:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Monbiot also made an apology. He deduced that Baroness Tonge is using satire to bring down the house of commons. http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2006/03/24/lady-tonge-an-apology/

Why is Jenny Tonge referred to as Right Honourable? She would surely only have this title if a Privy Councillor (usually a present or former Cabinet minister or leader of an opposition party). I don't know for certain that she is not a PC but if she is then this is sufficiently unusual that further elaboration would be useful. 194.75.128.2 15:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Jenny Tonge is not a Privy Councillor, (just checked the Privy Council Office website). I have therefore removed the designation Right Honourable. Dennett p 15:27, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Although some people feel it is more appropriate to reserve the style 'right honourable' to privy counsellors, all peers in the degrees of lord of parliament, baron, viscount, and earl are style 'right honourable'.--90.206.67.153 (talk) 12:12, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Jenny Tonge.jpg

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Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Misplaced Pages:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 07:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Npov

I think some body needs to look at this to make sure it neutral, the Israel Criticism in particular . Any thoughts?安東尼 TALK 22:31, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Far too long. Two sentences of accusation, two of response, at least two WP:RS, more than adequate. Should have done it myself last time looked, but I think it's doubled in size since then! CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:04, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Why is the section on controversial comments regarding israel longer than the rest of this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.97.26.243 (talk) 15:28, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Rightly or wrongly, it is what she is best known for. I don't think she'd dispute that herself. It's a subject she feels strongly about and has repeatedly campaigned on, particularly since leaving the House of Commons; inevitably, she has drawn criticism as a result. Some might think the current criticism section is a bit excessive, but I think it's justifiable in context. Robofish (talk) 22:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I made it more NPOV and accurate per WP:BLP per my edit summaries:

• remove what evidently is supposed to be a guilt by association quote, assumedly cause he's NOT talking about dying for Britain)
• renamed section since the section is about criticisms of Israel, some of which are show to have led to controversy; it's WP:OR and NPOV to say controversy and then list mostly criticism
• more clear chrono, accurate facts, less redundant, NPOV of Haitian comments incidents) (undo)
• Corrected inaccurate statement that Tonge being investigated and detail what's investigated why CarolMooreDC 18:07, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the paragraph about O'Keefe. Not exactly for NPOV (this talk section title), but for OR (synthesism): even the source did not produce anything more connection than that they were on the same meeting. Associations only. -DePiep (talk) 08:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the deletion. Really, the O'Keefe material belongs in the O'Keefe article.     ←   ZScarpia   16:22, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Reverted withouttalk. Still there is not proof of Tonge's resposibility for or connection with O'Keefe's words. -DePiep (talk) 19:05, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The only connection we have is a pretty slim one, a complaint by a Haaretz journalist that Tonge didn't dissociate herself from O'Keefe's remarks, remarks that (according to Haaretz) two pro-Israeli activists in the audience asked the police to investigate on the grounds that they promoted racial hatred by comparing Jews to Nazis. I'm rather surprised about Brewcrewer's desire to include the deleted paragraph given the concerns he expressed here.     ←   ZScarpia   19:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The removal is fine, IMHO :-) CarolMooreDC 04:46, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Having been made aware of Misplaced Pages:NPOV#cite_note-0 policy (which links to WP:Criticism essay), it's clear that creating a disjointed chronology to emphasize her criticism of Israel is just too POV and vs. WP:BLP. So I reorganized. Plus clarified that she's still a peer. Did a news archive search of last couple years and there hasn't been a lot about her. Some of the personal details need refs. I'll look at tomorrow. CarolMooreDC 06:42, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Liberal Democrat membership and other issues

I don't know if it really was Jenny Tonge editing, though the AnonIp does come from United Kingdom Richmond upon Thames. That news source did give the impression she was quitting and a few weeks back when I worked on article I couldn't find one saying she was still a member. Just found a contemporary one now: in passing mention in a Nov. 20, 2012 article about "home allowances".

There does seem to be an impression she quit as in Huffington Post article and Israel National News article. Perhaps she needs to send out a press release saying she's still a member to clear up media confusion. Or at least clue in those sources.

As for removed Yad Vashem info, in this case it was not WP:Undue under WP:Biographies of Living Persons to mention it and the article is far less of an "attack piece" than it was previously and than some other bio articles on this topic are. It does look like a bit more info from the article is warranted under WP:Biographies of Living Persons policies and I'll look at that. Though probably not tonight... CarolMooreDC 04:09, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

2003 Gaza visit and Oona King Guardian OpEd

I looked and Yad Vashem reference is to Oona King's OpEd, even if the letter from Yad Vashem was to both of them. As I corrected, in 2003 Tonge and Oona King visited Gaza and King wrote a long piece for The Guardian (reprint here) comparing it to the Warsaw Ghetto. It is only noted in both Haaretz and Guardian news articles that Tonge said something about the Apartheid, but when and where not identified. Definitely WP:Undue to repeat the criticism of King which is not relevant to Tonge; put it in King's article if you like. CarolMooreDC 05:34, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but where did you look? The cited Ha'ahretz article says 'Yad Vashem chairman Avner Shalev has accused two British MPs of "malicious distortion" for comparing the conditions of a million Palestinians trapped in Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto under Nazi occupation. " and also "Shalev wrote the pair a letter on Sunday saying "whereas it is legitimate to disagree with Israeli policies and actions, it is grossly illegitimate and malicious to compare them to the most evil and massive crime in modern history in order to heighten the disagreement. ". They think it's all over (talk) 18:50, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Again, the sources say that he wrote to both of them, but in fact only King commented on Warsaw Ghetto. And comparing Israel to apartheid has never been equated to comparing it to the Holocaust, has it? Shall we go to WP:BLPN to see if we should burden the article with his response to King - while also making it Tonge only mentioned apartheid? If the source does so, please show us where. Or find one that does. I couldn't. Why not just add it to King article since she's the one who is responsible on the evidence provided?

• The Guardian: The Yad Vashem council has written to Oona King, who is Jewish and the Labour MP for Bethnal Green and Bow, and Jenny Tonge, the Liberal Democrat MP for Richmond Park, who said they were shocked by what they saw during a visit to Gaza earlier this month.

Ms King wrote a commentary nearly a fortnight ago in the Guardian drawing the analogy with the Warsaw ghetto to which Jews were confined by the Germans.

Haaretz - which seems to be a short version of the McGreal article: Yad Vashem chairman Avner Shalev has accused two British MPs of "malicious distortion" for comparing the conditions of a million Palestinians trapped in Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto under Nazi occupation.

Oona King, MP (Labor), and MP Jenny Tonge, MP (Liberal Democrats), visited the Gaza Strip about two weeks ago and said they were shocked by what they saw.

Oona King original in Guardian: ...As two British MPs travelling with Christian Aid, myself and Jenny Tonge are alarmed. For Gaza residents this is business as usual. More than 1 million Palestinians live on this tiny piece of land (smaller than the Isle of Wight) - more than three-quarters of on less than £1.30 a day. Life below the poverty line for these Palestinians contrasts with the 5,000 Israeli settlers who occupy one-third of the land and enjoy watered gardens, first world housing and protection by the Israeli army. This protection means Palestinians wait for hours - sometimes days - at Israeli checkpoints, trying to find work or get access to essential services such as medical care.

The sun is setting on Gaza. From my hotel balcony I hear demonstrations in the street below. It occurs to me that I can put on a headscarf and slip into the crowd as a Palestinian. No one will guess I’m Jewish, still less that I’m a British MP...

A proper interpretation of the reliable source makes it clear that there is no evidence for what the Yad Vashem representative charged vs Tonge and a proper summary of what is written makes that clear. CarolMooreDC 19:15, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

What you are doing here ('A proper interpretation of the reliable source') is called original research. The reliable source(s) Ha'aretz (and Guardian) , says Shalev wrote to both MPs and accused both of an improper comparison. Carol Moore, who is not a reliable source, thinks Shalev was wrong to do this, since only King made a direct comparison to the Ghetto, and that Ha'aretz should have clarified this. But we don't write according to what you think would have been a better criticism, we write according to what the reliable sources actually say and what Shalev actually did. And they accurately report that Shalev criticized Tonge for making a Nazi comparison. They think it's all over (talk) 19:49, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

As I clearly said, per BLP you must summarize what the Guardian says (the original, earlier and more complete source, though Haaretz presents essentially same info). IF you do so it becomes clear there is no evidence that Tonge mentioned the Warsaw Ghetto, only that Shalev accused them both of it. Sure, this is the sort of thing that is emphasized on partisan websites trying to destroy people's reputation, but is it suitable under WP:BLP for Misplaced Pages? That's what the issue would be at WP:BLPN. CarolMooreDC 20:43, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I think a fair summary of what the Guardian or Ha'artez say is what you removed from the article- namely, that Shalev criticized Tonge (and King) for making inappropriate comparisons to Nazi Germany. neither Ha'artez nor the Guardian is a partisan websites trying to destroy people's reputation. WP:BLP says 'If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented, it belongs in the article — even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. ' - this is clearly an incident that meets all 3 requirements (noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented) They think it's all over (talk) 01:10, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Just because he criticized it, is no reason not to make it clear that King alone wrote the OpEd and that Tonge's only relevant comment in relation to the trip to Gaza was saying Israel practiced Apartheid, which is not relevant to the Holocaust. That is necessary under WP:BLP or one might be accused of partisan POV pushing. Have you bothered to do research to show that she did say more? CarolMooreDC 04:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

What she said was already in the article - but you keep on removing the sourced criticism. Why are you doing that? They think it's all over (talk) 00:22, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

BLP Noticeboard entry

Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Jenny_Tonge.2C_Baroness_Tonge. CarolMooreDC 02:24, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Marked with green check per below. CarolMooreDC 15:50, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

New sources

OK, I thought I'd searched highbeam, but putting in the two MPs names actually gave me at least two or more good sources, at least one of which does quote what Tonge actually said on Warsaw Ghetto. Again proving that sourcing is everything. So I'll redo per those. CarolMooreDC 15:49, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Controversy

Why is "Her support for the Palestinian people and criticism of Israel" controversial? Surely she is entitled to her opinion, and criticism of Israel is not illegal?203.184.41.226 (talk) 02:43, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

It isn't, but if you read the article, it explains how her outspoken views have caused controversy. Without wanting to get into that controversy here, it seems fair to say they go considerably beyond the position of her former party, the Liberal Democrats, on the subject, and attracted them much criticism until she resigned the whip. Robofish (talk) 22:36, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Pronunciation?

Article should give some indication of how her surname is pronounced... -- AnonMoos (talk) 04:26, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Campaign Against Antisemitism

Currently, the Misplaced Pages article on the Campaign Against Antisemitism, which is linked to from the current article, is little more than a stub. There is more information on Powerbase here. Powerbase also has an article on the Campaign's chairman, Gideon Falter, and spokesman, Jonathan Sacerdoti, here and here. Falter was at the centre of the prosecution of Foreign Office diplomat Rowan Laxton (the "Ranting Diplomat") for comments Falter and one other alleged he had made in a gym while watching a news report about the killing of a farmer in Gaza. Later, at a Crown Court appeal, a judge and two magistrates decided that Laxton had not made the comment on which the prosectution relied. According to this Electronic Intifada article, the BBC Trust determined that the way Sacerdoti had been used in the reporting of Operation Pillar of Cloud in 2012 had breached BBC impartiality guidelines (other articles by the same author are here and here). The breach related to the failure to make clear Sacerdoti's activism on behalf of Israel ("... the interviewee was introduced without sufficient context. The BBC had not made clear to the audience that the interviewee was associated with a particular viewpoint and this had resulted in a breach of Impartiality guideline 4.4.14."). Tony Greenstein wrote about the Campaign Against Antisemitism here.     ←   ZScarpia   00:04, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

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