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FAQ

I do not think that the FAQ mirrors the frequent questions and the right answers. Could someone with a good overview take a look and edit the template accordingly?--Zoupan 02:09, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

1. "Skanderbeg was born in what is Albania today." - That is incorrect. All sources explain that exact birthplace is unknown. What is know he was born in the realm of his father. Its territory was in region of Debar, along the border between modern-day Macedonia and Albania. Exact place is unknown. It might be in Albania or Macedonia. That is also what article says.
2. "Skanderbeg's native language was albanian" - That is incorrect. There is an ocean of sources that his father, grandfather and great grandfather were of Slavic origin, while Slavic origin of his mother is undisputed by reliable contemporary scholars. The region in which he was born was populated by substantial Slavic population. He probably learned to speak Albanian and many other languages too, but emphasizing that Albanian was his native language would be incorrect.
3. "From where was Skanderbeg's mother? Controversial..." - That is also incorrect. No reliable sources dispute that she was from Polog, which is also what article says.
4. "Was Skanderbeg a Roman Catholic?" - No precise answer is provided. The question and answer do not mention Orthodoxy, only Islam and Catholicism. Also, the question itself is a little loaded. Skanderbeg was probably tempted to convert to Catholicism in some period of his life. That does not mean that he was not Orthodox in another part of his life. The question should be reworded to: "Was Skanderbeg a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox?" The reply should clarify that it is unknown whether he was Catholic of Orthodox, before and after he was Muslim. It should also explain that, taking in consideration real events, he probably was both in different period of his life.
5. "His real name was Gjergj (George) Kastrioti. His father was Gjon Kastrioti and his mother was Voisava Tripalda" - That is incorrect. If real name means name he used for himself, the real name of Skanderbeg was not Albanian version (Gjergj) or English version name (George). That is not how he wrote his name. No primary source refers to him as Gjergj or George or to his father as Gjon.

It is necessary to reach consensus before the template is changed.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:33, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Support change. I would also have the questions narrowed to 1. , 2. , 3. .--Zoupan 00:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Oppose change.Points 2 and 3 are your personal views as there is no consensus between historians that any ancestor of Skanderbeg was of Slavic origin.The last point about his real name needs to be discussed.NobleFrog (talk) 19:06, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Interesting position. Points 2 and 3 should not be changed or even discussed because what I wrote about them are my personal views? What I wrote is supported with an ocean of sources. I can present them if you want? What about what you wrote? Can you present reliable sources which support:

1. Albanian ethnicity of Skanderbeg and all of his ancestors is undisputed by contemporary scholarly sources so Skanderbeg's native language was certainly Albanian
2. Skanderbeg's mother was not from Polog.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:03, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Oppose change. Make sure a good consensus is reached before changing anything here.

• Ethnicity: His mother was Tripalda. Does that make her automatically Slavic? His words make a very clear statement (letter to Giovani Antonio, Prince of Taranto) You call the Albanese shepherds. You don't know anything about my race. Our forefathers were called Epirotes, from where Pyrrhus came who won the Romans.....Our ancestors went as far as India with Aleksander the Great and defeated those people with many difficulties. From these descent those people which you call "shepherds"....etc,etc.... I guess that counts for something.
• Religion. His family was clearly Orthodox. He was initiated Bektashi when he joined the Janissaries. Then he came in Albania and killed all the Muslims. Did he consider himself Catholic later? Still Orthodox? Pan-Christian? This is matter of interpretation and it is not easy.
• Name. So how do we put the name? Ivan, Johan, Johannes? Giovanni? It depends on what language you write it. Since this is English wikipedia, and the person was Albanian, having Gjergj or George is not wrong.

Mondiad (talk) 16:29, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Regarding his mother Voisava's origins it should be left on the article about her which it is covered about her Bulgarian and Serbian origins. However Mondiad has identified two gaps that need to be referenced in this article regarding Skanderbeg's religion. He was born Orthodox. And also that he was Bektashi in the Janissaries. I anyone has a copy of Schmitt or another peer reviewed scholar/s on them at the moment could they do it ?Resnjari (talk) 16:34, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Ahah so now he is of Slavic origin ahahahah man get a life. Wonder why albanians say serbs have no honor and no principles.

The recent book by German academic Oliver Jens Schmit is the most researched and non-biased scholarship to date on Skanderbeg and has annoyed many an Albanian nationalist. Regarding point 3 there are disputes about that. I concur with Schmitt however that Skanderbeg was of Slav heritage from his mother's side (In the medieval era people were cementing alliances all over place), however other historians have disagreed. About point 1, most of Gjon's domains where in what is Albania today and the small village that Skanderbeg possible could have been born in is in what is now Albania and not in another state. About point 2 when you say " That is incorrect. There is an ocean of sources that his father, grandfather and great grandfather were of Slavic origin" you will find strong disagreement there. Moreover those sources (which for one you do not name) of which you speak, when were they written (if its scholarship during the Miloseviċ era, that is very problematic to say the least) and also are they based on in depth archival research also ?. Schmitt does not say any such thing about that ! Regarding 4 "Was Skanderbeg a Roman Catholic?" - No precise answer is provided." He was a Catholic later in life. His father was Orthodox. Almost all Albanians where Orthodox at that point in time. Roman Catholicism made inroads in the north under the Avengians, it was still ongoing during Skanderbeg's time. Regarding point 5 "His real name was Gjergj (George) Kastrioti. His father was Gjon Kastrioti and his mother was Voisava Tripalda" - That is incorrect. If real name means name he used for himself", there are numerous issues there. For one the Albanian from is attested through Italian (Venetian and Papal) documents which give his name also as Zorzi, a corruption of the Albanian Gjergj. The Gj consonants being interpreted as Z. Two Skanderbeg was referred to as George in various versions of his name and at times signed off in the Latin form of that name (as Latin was an international language and many people used a Latin version of their name during the era). As for the English version, this is English Misplaced Pages after all and the version of his name most used in that language when discussing him. The Arberesh where Skanderbeg's memory is best preserved also refer to him as Gjergj and not something else. Skanderbeg as surrounded by Albanian speakers such as his friend and confidant Pal Engelli (who wrote some of the first examples of Albanian we have today). There no record of Skanderbeg however not having spoken Albanian.Resnjari (talk) 12:59, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I can't believe it is seriously being discussed whether or not Skanderbeg was a Slav. *sigh* The vast majority of sources accept he was an Albanian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.145.60.158 (talk) 20:54, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Skanderbeg himself as not a Slav and did not identify as such (as it shows in documents he signed himself of as Lord of Albania, not Serbia or Bulgaria). Peer reviewed scholarship only refers to his mother. That is covered in the article about Vojsava. Descent does not make a person Albanian, otherwise one could say that the Arvanites are Albanian today. Or other examples would be Turkish sultans with a Greek mother. One would never call Mehmet the conquer of Constantinople a "Greek" on account of his mother's ethncity etc, etc.Resnjari (talk) 21:25, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

The FAQ needs a redesign.--Zoupan 23:24, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

The argument "it shows in documents he signed himself of as Lord of Albania, not Serbia or Bulgaria" is invalid because obviously the place he rules doesn't make him belonging to the majority ethnic group of the land he is ruling. He coudn't rule Serbia or Bulgaria because at time these were strong regional powers ruled by other rulers, but that doesn't invalidade a possibility of a non-Albanian ruling Albania. Actually, during Middle Ages big portions of Albania was often ruled by Serbs. So a Serb could very possibly write himself as ruler of Albania, thus making the argument useless for the issue here. FkpCascais (talk) 18:39, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

The argument that "He coudn't rule Serbia or Bulgaria because at time these were strong regional powers ruled by other rulers, but that doesn't invalidade a possibility of a non-Albanian ruling Albania. Actually, during Middle Ages big portions of Albania was often ruled by Serbs" is going into OR territory. At the time of Skanderbeg's era, even amongst the scholarship the feudal lords who ruled areas of Albania where regarded as Albanians as by then they had come into their own as the Slavic Empire around them has disintegrated into small entities ((and often being vassals of the Ottomans). In the medieval era, many rulers have parentage from different ethnicity. A case in point would we Mehmet the conqueror of Istanbul who had a Greek mother but never himself regarded himself as as a Romioi or Byzantine Greek. In England many of the nobility had French Norman mothers. It was part of securing and gaining alliances. How the child was reared by their father often determined how they thought of themselves as that is the polity they usually became politically active in. Moreover Skanderbeg went to live at the Sultan's court from a young age and was raised a Muslim. His return to what is now Albania, he renounced Islam, became a Christian again. It was in' Albania that remade himself and regarded himself the lord of a larger area that was thought of as constituting Albania (not just being a lard of Kruja) than just a feudal polity here or there. The concept of a consolidated Albanian state only came into proper being in 1912. Within the scholarship an Albanian state existing at that of the medavil era was non-existent. Unless Schmit who has written the most recent and non-biased study of Skanderbeg states this outright that Skanderbeg regarded himself as of Slavic heritage etc then this can be changed. For a change to happen strong peer reviewed scholarship must be provided (i.e Schmitt).Resnjari (talk) 20:36, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

I was just saying that your insinuation that because he signed as ruler of Albania he must be Albanian was, actually you reminded me of it, WP:OR. I am not saying Skenderbeg wasn't Albanian, just saying that he signing as Lord of Albania provides nos answers to the question of his ethnicity or nationality. FkpCascais (talk) 22:47, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

I thought i would clarify the issue on my part in a second reply. The main reason why included the Lord of Albania thing is because even though there was no Albanian state per se (instead a loose coalition of feudal polities grouped around a League of Lezha), Skanderbeg thought of himself as something related to a concept of Albania at the very least, not with a Serbia or Bulgaria etc. To date in the most peer reviewed recent scholarship there is nothing to assert that Skanderbeg was not Albanian. His mother's ancestry has no bearing to what he was. Otherwise Mehmet the conquer would be "Greek" and much of the English nobility of the time would be "French" due to having mothers of a differing ancestry. Mehmet is regarded as Turkish and members the English nobility as English. Those wanting to change this bit that Skanderbeg was "Serbian" etc are basing it on such a thing of his mother's descent. It is only his mother of whom the scholarship refers to being of Slavic descent, not his father. Best.Resnjari (talk) 00:17, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

"Albanian resistance" header

I do not see why you had to remove the "Albanian Resistance" heading.Everybody agreed on the sectioning and it stayed like that for years.I would have nothing against expanding it but,something like this seems illogical as "Albanian Resistance" encompasses his activity from 1444-1468 quite well.Can you explain your edit? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euripides ψ (talk • contribs) 22:01, 13 March 2016 (UTC) Moved from my talk page.--Zoupan 22:23, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

@Euripides ψ: Where is this agreed upon? I think it is illogical to put three sections in their own right under a section named "Albanian resistance", when they all deal with Skanderbeg and not this overall "Albanian resistance". They are independent and long enough.--Zoupan 22:23, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

The header "Rise","Consolidation" and "Last Years" is misleading as the reader may not be aware of the events.Therefore sub-headers are perfectly usable in this case.I do not understand why it irritates you so much.IS it due to the fact that Skanderbeg's followers included Slavs,Greeks and Italians?They were a minority and most of his followers were Albanian.If we follow your logic,many wars ought to have their names changed. Euripides ψ (talk) 22:27, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't see them as misleading, but a proper summarization would be better (as the previous section). What would be misleading is to treat his rise as the "rise of Albanian resistance", and his last years as the "last years of Albanian resistance", which is the case now. I am not irritated (?), I am merely raising an issue. The thing is that the article is not about wars, but about Skanderbeg. The next step would be to trim the article; branching is needed as to avoid going into too much detail.--Zoupan 23:04, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

I am against using "Albanian Resistance" as subtitle because it does not correspond to sources. Skanderbeg's uprising was not a resistance of people of Albanian ethnicity, nor it was limited to Albania. Most of his major battles occurred in Macedonia, his realm was initiated in Macedonia (Debar) and included Svetigrad (Kodzadzik) and Modrič in Macedonia. As explained in the article, and cited with reliable sources (Oliver Schmitt, Franz Babinger...) his followers included many Slavs, Italians, Frenchmen and Germans. This was not "Albanian resistance" also because there were Albanians on both sides. "The military commanders, leaders and simple soldiers, i.e. the whole army fighting against Scanderbeg, consisted of local Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs and Vlachs. There were also Turkish Muslims in the Ottoman forces who owned timar lands. On the whole, it is evident that the rebels were not opposed by “foreign” invaders, but by local forces loyal to the new empire who were willing to fight members of their own ethnic groups longing for pre-Ottoman times. " Robert Elsie (awarded for his Albanophilia selected from Oliver Schmitt book)---Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:10, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Antidisrkiminator,

Following your logic should we change the name of the Croatian War of Independence article because there were combatants of other ethnicities as well?Should we change the name of the article because quite some battles took place in Bosnia?I understand you as a Serb want to display your people's importance in this conflict as you've tried before,even going to an extreme.

I believe "Albanian Resistance" is perfectly suitable.Here are some reliable sources that use the term "Albanian"

1. ..Hunyadi had not been able to wait for Scanderbeg and the Albanians, for the advance of Murad II........ Second battle of Kosovo 1448 .
2. Scanderbeg was still to enact the great Albanian epic resistance to the Turks... Albanian resistance to Turks.
3. ...Albanian leader.. or another ..the Albanian athlete and champion... Referring to Scanderbeg (several times)
4. .....Albanian army including Catalans contingent sent by Alfonso...Albanian defeat at Berat... Battle of Berat 1455 (bear in mind that the catalan contingent has been mentioned in the article)
5. ...(Scanderbeg) sent an Albanian cavalry force into southern Italy.. or another expression ...Albanian expeditions.. Scanderbeg expedition in Italy 1460-61
6. ...Elbasan soon proved its worth by resisting an Albanian attack the following spring.... Scanderbeg attack on Elbasan in 1466, the Scanderbeg is not even mentioned but just his "Albanian army"
7. ....great Albanian fortress of Kruja... Terms used for localities.

Or The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century By John Van Antwerp Fine Edition reprint, illustrated Publisher University of Michigan Press, 1994 ISBN 0472082604, 9780472082605

1. Albanians defeating the invaders in June 1444...Albanians victory over the Turks....the two armies met on the Drin at some point in 1448, and the Albanians annihilated the Venetian force
2. In 1452 the Albanians defeated in the mountains a new Ottoman force
3. Commander of the Albanian army.......Albanian leader

So,just because Skanderbeg's army included a minority of slavs doesn't mean the whole name of his resistance be changed,therefore I think the term "Albanian resistance" is thoroughly usable. Euripides ψ (talk) 21:58, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

You are very confused. The issue is the name of a section header, not the name of an article. The issue is terminology, not ethnicities. Basically what you've done here is to search for "Scanderbeg"+"Albanians" to prove something. Do these ref-quotes somehow support the section header? I don't think so.--Zoupan 22:38, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

@Euripides ψ: Per MOS:SECTIONS and WP:AT: "The title indicates what the article is about...."

Is section titled "Albanian resistance" about the resistance of Albanians? Yes, but only partially because:

1. As demonym, Skanderbeg's followers who resisted to Ottomans were not only Albanians but also Macedonians. Except Kruje, almost all other major populated places under Skanderbeg's control were in Macedonia (predominantly Slavic populated Debar, Svetigrad, Modric...).
2. In the ethnic sense, Skanderbeg's followers were a mixture of all ethnicities present in that region at that time. In many cases, Skanderbeg's forces were composed predominantly or even exclusively of Slavs, i.e. in the case of Slavic populated Svetigrad in Macedonia. After Ottomans captured Svetigrad, its Slavic population emigrated to the small fortress of Kruje and continued to resist Ottomans for many years to follow. Eventually, Ottoman armies (with the substantial share of Albanians) captured it. The resistance of this Slavic people from Macedonia to Ottoman forces was certainly not "Albanian resistance".
3. Maybe the only clear reason in support of "Albanian resistance" subtitle lays in the fact that the Ottoman forces who resisted to Skanderbeg included a majority of Albanians, so their resistance to Skanderbeg was indeed predominantly "Albanian resistance".
4. Albanians were actually Skanderbeg's main victims. Skanderbeg was responsible for the death of more Albanians than any other person in history. I began a draft of an article with list of his battles, but when I saw such huge number of Albanians who died because of Skanderbeg only in first 5 years of his rebellion, I simply could not continue with this draft ..... The figures are shocking.
5. The section in question is not only about Albanian resistance to Skanderbeg or to Ottomans. It is also about Skanderbeg's struggle against Venetians, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Angevins, ....

To conclude, "Albanian resistance" as section title is incorrect simplification which is against MOS:SECTIONS. The same is valid for "Rise" and "consolidation" subtitles which are unsourced WP:OR that does not correspond to the sourced events described in the text of the article. Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:08, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

No consensus was reached whatsoever.I clearly gave my argument and listed all the sources that used the term Albanian for his resistance yet you do not agree with it and give me some poor arguments.If you want to tell me it cannot be called "Albanian Resistance" due to the fact that there was a minority of slavs or vlachs or greeks or whatever in his army then why don't we change the "Croatian war of independence" title due to the minority of Bosnians or Albanians etc.I still do not understand what your problem is with this heading if nobody changed it for years,you suddenly find it problematic. Euripides ψ (talk) 13:07, 2 April 2016 (UTC) —moved from talk page.--Zoupan 17:44, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Clearly, there is concensus.--Zoupan 17:44, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

No there isn't.I do not agree with changing the header and adding a main article template to a terribly POV and ridiculously made page.We cane argue about the template later but for now there is no mutual agreement for the header. Euripides ψ (talk) 17:50, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Euripides, Skanderbeg's resistance contained other ethnicities too. Obviously, Albanians formed a sizable portion of that and considering that the refugees who fled to Italy and kept his memory alive where Albanians, not Slavs or others. However the region of Diber/Debar was a borderland and of mixed ethnicity where Albanians, Slavs and Vlachs lived etc. No need to pursue this with making it a Albanian resistance thing. One must be aware that the communist regime created a myth of Skanderbeg to as to downplay the heritage of autochthonous or indigenous Balkan Islam and historical links with the Ottomans which most Muslim Albanians are still sentimental about though no longer say because Albanian nationalism has made it "taboo" due to its Turkophobia and Islamophobia. This Skanderbeg figure, though important for some (and now days all Albanians) was just a minor warlord up north who was considered a nuisance by some of his contemporaries and considering Schmitt and Elsie both state that there were locals who fought against him, not all even in his family like Hamza agreed with his cause. Seriously this article is fine as it is regarding that bit. No need to put a modernist take on this medieval past. Best.Resnjari (talk) 18:14, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

It is irrelevant the detailed description of other Balkan prices' battles and wars against Ottomans in the section of Skanderbeg's legacy with the objective of limiting his contribution and legacy towards the delay of Ottoman advance in Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MARSELIMADHE (talk • contribs) 12:24, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Resnjari that is your opinion. Robert Elsie is a scholar who specializes in Albanian literature and folklore. Not medieval history. Following your POV, the Ottomans never actually bothered to send soldiers from Anatolia right? When they warred with Serbia, Bosnia, Hungary etc. All their forces were locals? I disagree. And also, Skanderbeg forced the Sultans themselves to conduct campaigns personally against him, which all failed. Also I believe that "Turkophobia" and "Islamophobia" has no place here. You can discuss that somewhere else. Best Euripides ψ (talk) 16:01, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

• Elsie published work of Austrian academic Oliver Schmitt who is specialized in medieval history - link.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:02, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Euripides ψ, my point is that the construct of Skanderbeg's rebellion as being an Albanian one dates back to communist times and is rooted in national identity issues and downplaying Islam. Of course the bulk of troops were Anatolian, but they included sizable numbers of Balkan locals, such as Skanderbeg's nephew Hamza. In 20th century Balkan historiography there has been a tendency to make certain medaveil heroes and battles the preserve on one nationality or the other. Another example of this type is the battle of Kosovo where alongside Serbian forces, troops and their feudal lords from many other nationalities participated, yet the battle for Serbs is considered Serb only with the Ottomans omitting the others. There has been much deconstruction of that myth over time (though not so much in Serbia itself). We should not replicate such myth making here. Skanderbeg is only now being treated outside this scope such as Schmitt's work. Best.Resnjari (talk) 06:16, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Resnjari, what you are talking about is not a problem in this article. You can discuss that in the Myth of Skanderbeg article. All Albanian sources used here are very reliable. Fan Noli graduated from Harvard. Kristo Frasheri is an excellent historian who has a neutral point of view and is very qualified in his field. He wasn't influenced by the communists at all. Also I don't understand why you are mentioning this downplay of Islam constantly. That isn't an issue in this article either.I do think the article has a few issues left and with a little work I intend to nominate it for GA. Euripides ψ (talk) 11:03, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

• The subtitle issue has been resolved by renaming "Albanian resistance" to "Rebellion against the Ottomans". That was only to top of the iceberg. The article still presents mythologized and nationalized (more precisely - Albanized) version of Skanderbeg, his struggle, his soldiers and the territory they controlled.
• Re sources, the sources used in this article include:

• 13 citations by Francione (a writer also worked as an actor and director, theater, essayist and painter who is from the artistic point of view influenced by Hacker Art, art, Gothic Revival and the so-called cyber-culture)
• Kristo Frasheri who belongs to numerous nationalist historians from Albania who intentionally emphasized "the Turkish savagery" and "heroic Christian resistance against the Osmanli state in Albania" (Central Institute of Islamic Research 1997, p. 192 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFCentral_Institute_of_Islamic_Research1997 (help):" Albanian nationalist historians like Ramadan Marmallaku, Kristo Frasheri, Skender Anamali, Stefanaq Pollo, Skender Rizaj and Arben Puto in their books deliberately emphasized "the Turkish savagery" and "heroic Christian resistance against the Osmanli state in Albania")
• Harry Hodgkinson has 17 citations (a British writer, journalist, naval intelligence officer and expert on the Balkans who suddenly, when he was 86 years old, decided to write his first work about medieval history after he was appointed from 1985 to be a Chairman of the Anglo-Albanian Association and during his career supported the Albanian cause and took up strong anti-Serb and anti-Bulgarian positions).
• etc...

• Re GA nomination. There were two GA reviews and during those reviews it was pointed to many issues of this article which remained unresolved. I would be happy to collaborate with any interested editor to improve its quality to GA status. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:03, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Irrelevant details of Slavic version of name

It is irrelevant to detail at the head of the name section how the name of Skanderbeg was written at some Slavic document. This is historic ignorance: The chancellories of princes always used to write (frequently simultaneously) in various languages, for example the documents of Gjon (John) Kastrioti at Hilandar monastery are written in Greek, Slavic and Latin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MARSELIMADHE (talk • contribs) 12:29, 19 August 2016 (UTC) MARSELIMADHE (talk) 12:31, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

It is indeed relevant. Skanderbeg had undisputed Slavic descent, and the archaic/contemporary spelling of his name (in Slavic) is interesting because it does not mirror Gjergj, which is a modern form. Ignorance would be to remove it, as you did.--Zoupan 12:49, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Gjergj is not a modern form, as any historian could easily check at the legacy of Italian Arberesh folklore where the Gjergj form is used, not any other form, not even Giorgio as they live in Italy. I was mistaken, it was not ignorance to put the slavic form, it was intentional from you serbians in order to claim a slavic descendancy. Actually this claim is pure ignorance and narrow-minded, as all the world knows that he represents Albanians and their war. It would be the same if Albanians claim that Roman Emperors Constantine, Diocletian and Byzantine Justinian were Albanians, because of their illyrian origin, when the essential feature of their rule was being Roman emperors. Get a life!MARSELIMADHE (talk) 13:34, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Why would his partial Slavic descent prove a problem in his legacy??--Zoupan 13:43, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

There is not one evidence stating his slavic descent, so to the best is just an assumption. I agree fully regarding his mother's origin from Pollog and probably yes, she was Bulgarian origin, but this is such a minor irrelevant issue (same as the Epirus origin of Alexander the Great's mother, Olimpia) and there is no reason to put given that no ethnicity proof exists even though probable and the main theme was that he called in writing himself Dominus Albaniae, not what ethnic origin his mother might have had. Therefore, it is clearly some desperate try from desperate nationalists to claim some bit of other country's heroes. It is so SAD!MARSELIMADHE (talk) 13:58, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Zoupan, this part of the sentence needs elaboration: "In the contemporary Slavic chancellery in Albania," . What is meant by that considering there was no formal Albanian state but a collection of feudal entities that lingered together in a loose league of Lezha? Was the Slavic language (church Slavonic ? Serbian ? Bulgarian ? etc) a working language for one of these feudal entities (like Latin was, as the correspondences with Rome were in Latin - and was common for many medieval states and other polities whose people belonged to different ethnicites) in which a document was found bearing the name Djuradj ? Or was that document written in Slavic, one done by these feudal entities when they used such forms when they communicated with surrounding Slavic polities ? I ask this because the way the sentence is structured at the moment makes it problematic. It implies that a Slavic language was in use for Albania in general (or the only language) in such an official capacity. Some clarification and an inline would be good in that regard. Best.Resnjari (talk) 08:05, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Zoupan, some clarification is needed for the sentence. Current wording is problematic.Resnjari (talk) 21:05, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Skanderbeg's chancellery.--Zoupan 21:07, 25 August 2016 (UTC) The Slavic used in the chancelleries in Albania (the feudal entities). I'll look into if it's possible to find exact documents.--Zoupan 21:13, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Just place the inline/s and a few extra words that Church Slavonic ? Serbian, Bulgarian ? was a working language of one of these feudal entities (which one?, all?) etc. But sentence needs clarification. Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:17, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Irrelevant detailed description of other Balkan princes wars in the Legacy section

It is irrelevant the detailed description of other Balkan prices' battles and wars against Ottomans in the section of Skanderbeg's legacy with the objective of limiting his contribution and legacy towards the delay of Ottoman advance in Europe. MARSELIMADHE (talk) 12:34, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Please do not disguise your removal of sourced content. You have removed interesting and crucial information in the article body, then in the edit summary claimed to have only edited the legacy section.--Zoupan 12:54, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Tell me one interesting and crucial information I have removed. MARSELIMADHE (talk) 13:36, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

The extent of rebellion, makeup of army, contemporary personal name spellings, geographic names, tribute to Ottomans, SS Skanderbeg.--Zoupan 13:48, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Skanderbeg's flag

According to whom was Skanderbeg's flag red with a black eagle, flown at Kruja? It seems like a myth. Could you guys please check into that?--Zoupan 20:38, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

According to Kristo Frasheri.In Gjergj Kastrioti Skënderbeu: jeta dhe vepra (1405-1468) in page 212 he states that he raised said standard and it was in such colors. Ottfried Neubecker writes in The Flag Bulletin, Volume 26 "History records that the 15th century Albanian national hero, Skanderbeg (i.e. George Kastriota), had raised the red flag with the black eagle over his ancestral home, the Fortress of Kruje" Plus it's mentioned in:

• Gjergj Kastrioti Skenderbeg (1405-1468) is Albania's national hero. The Skenderbeg family crest, the black double-headed eagle on red background, became the symbol of the Albanian nationalist movement

• Gjergj Kastrioti Skenderbeg. His 25-year revolt (from 1443 until his death in 1468) delayed the subjugation of Albania, and his red flag with a black double-headed eagle has remained the symbol of Albanian national liberation.

You asked this over at Talk:kastrioti as well and fueled an edit war. Now you question it here as well. Do you believe the eagle was white with a red background? Euripides ψ (talk) 12:09, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

No, but I still want to know if this is a myth or historical fact.--Zoupan 23:04, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

• Joseph ha-Kohen (1496–1575) (1835). The Chronicles of R. Joseph Ben Joshua Ben Meir the Sphardi. Translated by Bialloblotzky. for the Oriental translation fund. p. 270. and set up his own banner, upon which was the black eagle with two heads{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)

So, Kohen says that Skanderbeg set up his banner at Kruja, but nothing about the red background. The Armorials used a yellow background for the Kastrioti, except the Fojnica Armorial. Did Neubecker (1987) and Frasheri (1962) cite the claim? Neubecker's "over his ancestral home" is factually false, btw.--Zoupan 23:04, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

It is necessary to see the original text of Barleti who allegedly first mentioned some flag of Skanderbeg. There was extensive discussion about this issue here. There is also a COA which description can be found:

• in the sources presented here. Its representation can be found here on Heraldique Euroeenne and on hu.wiki

1. Claude-François Menestrier (1770) , Nouvelle méthode raisonnée du blason, ou De l'art héraldique (in French), Lyon: Pierre Bruyset Ponthus, pp. 106 and 107, OCLC 1303130, Castriot-Scanderberg porte de gueules au pal d'azur à enquérir , chargé de trois châteaux d'or maçonnés de fable, accofté de quatre pattes de griffons affrontées d'argent. Michaeli, à Venife, porte fafcé d'azur & d'argent.
2. Johannes Baptista Rietstap (1884), Armorial général, précédé d'un dictionnaire des termes du blason (in French), Gouda: Van Goor, p. 386, OCLC 781309799, Castriot dit Scanderbeg — Albanie, De gu. au pal d'azur, ch. de trois tours sommées chacune de trois tourelles d'or, maçonnées de sa.; le pal accosté de quatre pattes de griffon'd'arg., affr en pals.

• and in this work Vitezović, Pavao Ritter (1701). Stemmatographia, sive armorum Illyricorum delineatio, descriptio et restitutio, Autore Equite Paulo Ritter. na. p. A2..--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:11, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

I would like to ask of Zoupan to remove the WP:NOTRS tag. Many reliable sources refer to the Kastrioti's crest as being a black double headed eagle with a red background. I don't see why it should be so controversial. Euripides ψ (talk) 15:01, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Skanderbeg was Serbian origin

The first scholarly claim that Scanderbeg was a Slav was made by Charles Hopf who misread a document of 1368 in Serbian. Through his misinterpretation he produced a "Branilo Kastrioti" which he put forth as Skanderbeg's great-grandfather. In spite of the clarification of this error by scholars, there are still Serbs today who believe in his existence. These Serbs give the below genealogy composed by various western genealogists as evidence.

Source: (assassinato a Jannina nel 1379 circa), di origine serba, Governatore di Jannina nel 1368. Sposa N.N.

The nationalist writers needed to do nothing more than provide with a national significance and some embellishment, subjecting him to the laboratory that serves to transform history into myth. As with most myths, his figure and his deeds became a mixture of historical facts, truths and half-truths, inventions and folklore… For 19th century Albanians, a majority of whom had adhered to the faith of Skenderbeg’s Muslim enemies, the religious dimension needed to be avoided. Consequently, Skenderbeg became simply the national hero of all Albanians, the embodiment of the myth of ‘continuous resistance’ against their numerous foes over the centuries.

1) Skenderbeg is the great grandson of Branilo, the Serb duke of Kastoria. 2) Skenderbeg’s brother was named Stanisa, a contemporary Serbian name. 3) Stanisa’s son (Skenderbeg’s nephew) was also named Branilo. 4) Skenderbeg’s mother was Vojislava daughter of the Serb ruler of Polog 5) Skenderbeg’s sisters Valica and Jela mean ‘little wave’ and ‘dear’ in Serbian. Branilo and Stanisa are both Serbian names meaning ‘defender’ and ‘the one who stands,’ respectively. Note that neither Branilo, Stanisa, Valica nor Jela exist as Bulgarian names. Not long ago, for example, I wrote of myths and mentioned Skenderbeg and the Battle of Kosovo. I told of how the Albanians have forgotten that Skenderbeg was a Slav. I was attacked by Ismail Kadare, incensed at how I could possibly say that Skenderbeg was a Slav and that the history and culture of Albanians is on the level of Serbs.

That’s the way it is with our culture, which is mythomaniac, national-communist, romantic, self-glorifying. You can’t say anything objective without people getting angry. The Albanians are a people who still dream. That is what they are like in their conversations, their literature…In light of Hoxha and ‘pyramid schemes, Albanians are a people who still dream. That’s just the way they are… -Fatos Lubonja famous Albanian dissident there was an attempt in some circles to exalt the Albanians’ Muslim identity on the grounds that those Albanians who became Muslim were the only true Albanians – arguing that the Islamic religion was the strongest factor in the survival of the Albanians… Some even put forth the theory that Skenderbeg should not be the national hero because he betrayed the Turks by serving the Christians.…the old myths of national romanticism like that of Skenderbeg and ‘the religion of the Albanians is Albanianism’ remain the dominant mythologies in Albanian cultural and political life today.

-Fatos Lubonja Between the Glory of a Virtual World & the Misery of a Real World Quoted from: Albanian Identities: Myth and History Edited by: Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers & Bernd J. Fischer Page: 102

The nationalist writers needed to do nothing more than provide with a national significance and some embellishment, subjecting him to the laboratory that serves to transform history into myth. As with most myths, his figure and his deeds became a mixture of historical facts, truths and half-truths, inventions and folklore… For 19th century Albanians, a majority of whom had adhered to the faith of Skenderbeg’s Muslim enemies, the religious dimension needed to be avoided. Consequently, Skenderbeg became simply the national hero of all Albanians, the embodiment of the myth of ‘continuous resistance’ against their numerous foes over the centuries.

Pirro Misha Invention of Nationalism: Myth and Amnesia Quoted from: Albanian Identities: Myth and History Edited by: Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers & Bernd J. Fischer Page: 43

According to Albanian Pirro Misha, Skenderbeg, as Albanians know him or think they know him, is nothing more than a myth: a mixture of historical facts, truths and half-truths, inventions and folklore… The Albanian nationalist elites have turned Skenderbeg into the basis for the myth of ‘continuous resistance’. In fact, there was no ‘continuous resistance’ by the Albanians. There is only the betrayal of Skenderbeg by their conversion to the faith of Skenderbeg’s Muslim enemies. The religious dimension needed to be avoided to serve a basis for control of the Christian Albanians by the Muslim Albanian nationalist elites. Skenderbeg’s identity was completely hijacked and along with it, Albanian Christianity.

In Part 1 of Project Perpjekja, there was much discussion about Albanian nationalist elites. One more thing should be observed: the Albanian nationalist elites are always, almost as a rule, Muslim or ‘ex-Muslim.’ The Prizrenites were all Muslims and so was the Enverist ruling circle (Enver Hoxha, Mehmet Shehu, Qemal Stafa, Ramiz Alija, Ismail Kadare); so are the KLA. These nationalist elites have caused Albanians a lot of suffering. Zogu took up the spirit of the League of Prizren and he robbed the country; the Enverists did their damage through cultural isolation, the KLA have turned ‘free’ Kosovo into a cesspool of AIDS and prostitution.

Fatos Lubonja, another insider into the Albanian academic scene, describes how elements of Skenderbeg’s biography were manipulated by the Albanian nationalist elites:

His sisters: Mara Jela Angelina Vlajica and his brothers were: Stanisa Konstantin

“Skenderbeg’s family was of Serb descent” and married to Danica daughter of Vojvoda Golem. (golem is an old Slav word, meaning “great”.)

L. Defenbah “Zeine Familie War Slavishen Ursprungs” Brlin, Germany 1895

Skenderbeg’s sister Mara was married to Stefan Crnojevic, lord of Zeta, who with the Zetans helped Skenderbeg for 24 years in the wars against the Turks. According to the Catholic priest of Shkodra Marin Barleci, the Turks unearhed Skenderbeg’s remains and distributed them amongst themsleves ‘as souveniers’.

Paul Rovinski Russian emmisary and historian quoted from: “Glas Crnogorca” 1899

The Catholic Albanian priest Marini Barleci says that Skenderbeg wore Serb clothing and wrote in ‘Serb letters and Italian language’ because the illiterate Albanians at that time could only write in Greek or Serb just as Skenderbeg “carried all discussions in the Serb language”.

Kacic Miosic (Croatian scribe) 17th Century

“Skenderbeg, a personally brave man was of Serb descent and was so useful, that he was respected by the Albanians, as well. He was the son of Ivan Kastrioti. His mother was Vojislava, daughter of the Prince of Polog”

Teodoro Spanduci 16th century Italian quoted by: P. Rovinski see: above source for Mr. Rovinski

Sources: Biography of Skenderbeg in Serbian language published in Budapest in 1828 by a Hungarian: Josip Milovuk

Biography of Skenderbeg in Serbian language published in Belgrade in 1848 by a Croatian: Andrija Kacic Miosic

Biography of Skenderbeg in Serbian language published in Novi Sad in 1855 by the Serb Popovic brothers

The only book about Skenderbeg written by an Albanian before the World War I was written by Catholic Albanian priest Marin Barleci who is quoted by Paul Rovinski. As shown above – even M. Barleci an Albanian designates Skenderbeg a a Serb and not an Albanian at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DereticevSvetiVazal (talk • contribs) 11:14, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you @DereticevSvetiVazal: for your detailed explanation and I apologise for my late response. I removed it because such a claim should have the sources supporting it included in the article. I think the best may be to copy this entire thread to the Talk:Skanderbeg and see there the opinion of other editors. FkpCascais (talk) 02:20, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

I read through DereticevSvetiVazal citing of sources above, apart from some of the personal POV included in those comments. Though those sources are interesting they have a few issues. One many of them are obsolete as the scholarship on Skanderbeg has moved on in a contemporary era (i.e Schmitt). Secondly the other sources citing Misha, Lubonja etc deal with the myth making of Skanderbeg which has nothing to with Skanderbeg's partial Slavic descent, but about how the modern day communists used Skanderbeg as a figure to implement their version of Albanian identity among Albania's religious communities who are Albanian speaking. If you want to place stuff about Lubonja and Misha etc, there is a page on the Myth of Skanderbeg already in Misplaced Pages that deals with such stuff. Best.Resnjari (talk) 20:43, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Better source than Kenneth Setton?

With this edit (diff) Euripides ψ tagged Kenneth Setton with better source tag. I think that Kenneth Setton is among the best sources used in the article and if no other more recent scholarly source of exceptional quality does not contradict what Setton stated, tagging Setton with better source needed tag is not appropriate and should be removed. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:26, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

That is your opinion. However this is a bold claim for a secondary source and is not mentioned in pretty much anything else. That's why I find the claim dubious. Euripides ψ (talk) 21:32, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Incorrect Euripides ψ. The assertion in question is mentioned in multiple primary sources cited by Setton, many of them even quote in the text of his work cited in this case. Please revert yourself and remove the tag. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:14, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Interesting. I checked the source and there was no mention of such a thing. Euripides ψ (talk) 22:18, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Euripides ψ, if you really have checked the source (which is available in full text on GB) you would certainly see on page 282 the text which support cited assertion, also with inline quote saying: "....In jeering tone he said the other day to a cardinal that he would rather make a war on the Church than on the Turk" plus citation (ref 43) to source about the letter written by Lorenzo da Pesaro and published in original primary documents collection authored by Pall, even with citation in Latin or Italian "... elo beffando disse l'altro di a uno cardinale che nante voria farre guerra alla ghiesa che al Turco!". --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:35, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Setton is a good source but the way how sentence is written in article is POV. Setton doesn't clarify if assertion of da Pessaro was what really Skanderbeg has said or just what da Pessaro believed Skanderbeg has said. All what is needed is to clarify that reader is reading what da Pessaro claimed. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:56, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Here's the book. On page 282 nothing like that is written. Maybe there's a mistake in the citation? Euripides ψ (talk) 21:51, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Your link doesn't send to page 282 but to page 258 Euripides ψ Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:55, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Then scroll down to page 282. Maybe template: should be used? Euripides ψ (talk) 21:56, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Here it is; there are two different books, The Papacy and the Levant, 1204-1571: The Fifteenth Century (which is where I found it) and The Papacy and the Levant, 1204-1571: The thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, which does not contain it. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 22:35, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

That is correct. It was 1976 not 1978 work of Setton. Thanks Dianna for removing better source tag. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:51, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

I see. Thanks for clearing that up Diannaa. I checked the source that was in the article but looks like that was the problem. Euripides ψ (talk) 14:38, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

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