Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:36, 11 October 2016

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Rajneesh article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12Auto-archiving period: 30 days

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Rajneesh. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Rajneesh at the Reference desk.

This article is written in Indian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, analysed, defence) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

	Rajneesh was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result November 18, 2007 Peer review Reviewed April 12, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed
	A fact from this article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on December 23, 2007.
Current status: Former good article nominee

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. India: Madhya Pradesh / Maharashtra Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Madhya Pradesh (assessed as Low-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject Maharashtra (assessed as Low-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Oregon Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Oregon, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of Oregon on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OregonWikipedia:WikiProject OregonTemplate:WikiProject OregonOregon Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. The current collaborations of the month are Women's History Month: Create or improve articles for women listed at Oregon Women of Achievement (modern) or Women of the West, Oregon chapter (historical). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Religion: New religious movements Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Misplaced Pages's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by New religious movements work group (assessed as Top-importance).

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Rajneesh article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12Auto-archiving period: 30 days

The cities of Mumbai and Pune were respectively known as Bombay and Poona until 1996. As such, as per Misplaced Pages:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names); the former names must be used in the article when referring to an event which occurred before 1996. Please do not change this.

	Guild of Copy Editors
This article was copy edited by Miniapolis, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on 31 July 2013.Guild of Copy EditorsWikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsTemplate:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsGuild of Copy Editors

Rajneesh or Osho?

In copyediting this article, I've noticed that its subject is referred to throughout as Osho; however, he only bore this name for the last year of his life and was known by the article's title during his best-known period. I've replaced "Osho" with "Rajneesh" in several places, but will leave it to another editor to replace all the Oshos. Miniapolis 16:25, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

First thanks for taking this article for copyediting. It has been controversial subject and has history of editwars. It is right he adopted name "Osho" in last years of his life. He was known as "Rajneesh" before that. I think keeping Rajneesh in earlier years of his life is ok. He is now better known as Osho and there are some copyright issues with Osho Name. So better we avoid it. I favour "Rajneesh" for describing his life till he adopted Osho. Regards-Nizil (talk) 18:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I've left a note on Sarovara's talk page objecting to their inappropriate replacement of "Rajneesh" with "Osho". It confuses the reader, and while I'll complete the copyedit I don't see this article making GA in the face of POV-pushing. Miniapolis 17:49, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

It is disrespectful to refer to Osho as "Rajneesh." It is like calling your mother by her last name; if my mother's last name is Smith, it would be like calling her Smith. "Osho" is a title/name used to refer to Zen masters, and Osho was a Zen master. I am trying to revert the title of the page to Osho. Appropriate changes should be made to the rest of the page. The fact that he took the title/name at the end of his life is immaterial. Taking the title "Bhagwan" was merely to challenge the traditional use of the word "Bhagwan" by corrupt people with spiritual pretensions. He has said this himself; also, he dropped the name to dissociate himself from its dirty history close to the end of his life. In the beginning, he presented himself and his views in a way that appeared attractive to those under the influence of traditional "religions," speaking on God, and after coming out of his 3 years of silence, revealed that there was no God. The change from "Bhagwan" to "Buddha" to "Zorba the Buddha" and finally to "Osho" is part of this change. If I fail to change the title of the page, I request anyone who is capable to change it. Stripping him of his chosen name (which also functions as a title) is incredibly disrespectful, because as a Zen master he deserves the name. Please desist from attempting to sabotage his name and title. Additionally, he is commonly known by everyone as Osho, NOT as Bhagwan and NOT as Rajneesh. I have changed the title displayed above the photo to "Osho." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.68.205.223 (talk) 16:02, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 23:51, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh → Rajneesh – Per WP:HONORIFIC. Rajneesh already redirects here so that should be the preferred title. regentspark (comment) 14:01, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

• Do it already. I don't think there's a need for a requested move discussion here. In case someone objects to the move, let's bring it back and then let's have a move discussion. What say? Wifione 14:31, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support removing "Bhagwan Shree". But isn't Osho more common than Rajneesh? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 18:44, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
• Same as Dharmadhyaksha. I think Osho is more common. --Vigyani_talk 05:02, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Objection to details found in move discussion

Something about moving items with such un-supported claims...

• Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh - was considered the usual name for the time that he was alive and was in the media regularly as that.
• Osho - was as much his posthumous name, and still appears on the reprints of his works
• honourifics - the average person from the era of his lifetime never understood most of his name as being honourifics
• common usage at this stage is problematic, no editor here has offered specific evidence of doing the google hits or other dreaded statistical nightmares
• In strictest terms the article should be under his birth name, and the rest of the appellations as redirects, then all the weak excuses to shift the article around like a tennis ball between the later names would fall completely flat.

satusuro 01:16, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Requested Move to - Chandra Mohan Jain

Suggestion that as it is in the lead sentence, that this specific name should be used as the article title, and would be an excellent work around the issues relating to the edit warring and moves. All the 'aka's can be then redirects. satusuro 01:22, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 20:08, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Rajneesh → Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh –

note that this was a hasty and not very well considered move. This article has a history of controversy and bold moves such as this would generally warrant a longer consultation period.

Personally, I see insufficient justification, it is far being a matter of honorific title usage.

Across most of the notable literature on the subject, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh is by far the most widely used title for this individual.

We generally refer to the best secondary sources to ascertain appropriate titles, those sources in this instance are mostly academic publications and most use "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh."

Google Scholar: Shree Rajneesh usage 1993-2012

Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh is still widely used in mainstream writings.

Also: "Osho Rajneesh" usage 1993-2013

Marion Goldman (a notable academic commentator on Rajneesh) interchanges Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh with Osho Rajneesh in an Oxford University Press book published in 2011 (Goldman, Marion S. 2011. Cultural Capital, Social Networks, and Violence at Rajneeshpuram. In Violence and New Religious Movements. Edited by James R. Lewis). Semitransgenic _talk. 18:30, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Comment - well documented and good point about the 'haste' of the last move, but disagree with the title issue - see above - Chandra Mohan Jain was birth name, and academics and 'notable literature' come and go, just as Osho himself was so keen to point out to his followers :) - he would have loved the irony of all this for sure. satusuro 00:12, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - Per WP:HONORIFIC - earlier move was may be in haste but correct!! Jethwarp (talk) 07:27, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Incorrect interpretation of WP:HONORIFIC, it clearly states: Where an honorific is so commonly attached to a name that the name is rarely found in English reliable sources without it, it should be included. Throughout academic literature on the subject the full title is commonly used.

Additionally, The word "Bhagwan" was not understood widely in the West as a religious title. He was both commonly and popularly referred to by the full title Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.

Furthermore, if we actually were to employ a reading of this along honorific title lines WP:NCCL would be closer to our purposes, but we have no rules for individuals who, within a specific religious tradition, are considered human incarnations of a god; but note, for example, that "pope" is always used in the article title. Semitransgenic _talk. 18:10, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

• Or move to Rajneesh (Indian mystic), and let plain Rajneesh be a disambig page: see All pages with titles containing Rajneesh. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:01, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Question: What is there to disambiguate? There is no Rajneesh (disambiguation) page currently, and a search didn't show any need for one. Andrewa (talk) 07:43, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:Honorifics. "Rajneesh" already redirects to this article so there is no need for disambiguation. Anthony Appleyard's solution also works. --regentspark (comment) 18:52, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Again, it's necessary to disagree, as raised above, this is NOT a simple case of WP:Honorifics, the scholarly search results demonstrate this, it's a matter of the honorific being "so commonly attached to a name that the name is rarely found in English reliable sources without it." Most sources, in the first instance, refer to the guy as Bhwagan Shree Rajneesh and rarely if ever in the sense that "Bhagwan Shree" is utilised in an "honorific" context, that's what he was commonly called, even in the popular press. Semitransgenic _talk. 19:42, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. The existing article title is concise and unambiguous. The last move was conducted and closed in an entirely appropriate manner, and the consensus was clear, and the rationale still holds. This new proposal does not add anything to that discussion, the searches cited may look impressive but are on closer examination quite irrelevant. Andrewa (talk) 12:05, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose "Rajneesh", "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh", and even "Osho", are all defensible titles for this article, and repeated moves and unending arguments over which is the one-and-only-true-acceptable title are misguided, waste of editors' times, and irrelevant to the readers. Lets gain some perspective about the lameness of the issue, and spend the time on improving the content of (this and other) articles instead. Abecedare (talk) 14:42, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

i certainly didn't raise this because I believe there is a "one-and-only-true-acceptable title," Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh was the title he was most commonly known by for the majority of his existence career, this a fact, borne out by multiple academic references, even Britannica adheres to this convention. You think it's lame, fair enough, I simply think very little real thought went into the most recent name change, but whatever, apologies for "wasting time" being so fucking pedantic. Semitransgenic _talk. 22:31, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

RfC:Was WP:HONORIFIC misapplied

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In the context of this requested move discussion, was WP:HONORIFIC misapplied here? Semitransgenic _talk. 17:23, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Survey

Support or Oppose reversal of this move.

• Oppose. See my comments in the second RM above. And can we then have a break from this? Andrewa (talk) 12:09, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

Comments. Comment - all the items above seem to ignore that to reduce the article to his earlier name (as is found in the lede sentence anyway) would save a large amount of time and energy wasted on items which are otherwise superfluous. Not many people come to this talk page or article, and the rate/level of edit warring in the past suggests that most visitors are here to prove a point, rather than create a neutral amenable encyclopedic title and article. Chandra Mohain Jain seems an ultimately ideal article title. As for the generations of academics and others who play with the legacy of said person, ah, but dust in the wind. Keep it simply, ignore the fashions that come and go. A few redirects for the variant subsequent names, and all is solved. satusuro 01:24, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, with a few redirects one wonders, exactly what is the point of this? My agenda is simply to make Misplaced Pages the best possible encyclopedia. The article names are, or should be, purely handles, but unfortunately we tend to spend a lot of counterproductive time and effort on deciding exactly what they will be. Counterproductive because this discussion fuels the myth that Misplaced Pages is taking a stand by deciding an article title. This is exactly what we should not do. The article title should simply be a handle. Content belongs in the article, not the title. In the article it can and should be sourced. In the title, it can't be. Andrewa (talk) 12:18, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Andrewa, I agree with you in principle. But, sometimes an article title is important as well. Chandra Mohain Jain would be a really bad idea for this article because almost no one knows him by that name. A reader looking for "Rajneesh" who ends up with Chandra Mohain Jain would be very surprised and may actually think they're in the wrong place. Familiarity in article titles is a useful thing, though I agree it is often overdone. --regentspark (comment) 14:28, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I too appreciate SatuSuro's Solomon-esque proposal, but eventually side with RP because internal wikipedia debates should not be settled in a manner that is not helpful to our general reader. Abecedare (talk) 14:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Regents - there is a point however where choosing a handle for familiarity is a false trail - there are specific demographics for the readers who know one of the variants - bhagwan, osho, rajneesh - and invariably if it keeps going, this talk page and article will keep getting moved as another set of the variant demographic wins over whoever bothers to change (again) - no one is going to get traumatised by a well written lede para that clarifies the issue.

Abecedare - as to whether anything might be not helpful - a well written lead para can make it more helpful and end eternal bickering at this end of the talk page - the general reader may well not know any of the appelations, the real name is at least a removal of the various endless issues for this particular article - it may not be a universally acceptable solution, but it sure cuts through the waste of time and space that this talk page has consumed satusuro 14:57, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I see where you are coming from SatuSuro. Clearly, if we use some sort of official naming criterion we'd save ourselves a lot of trouble and reduce the endless internal bickering that goes on in some articles. But, that's a meta discussion that should be considered elsewhere (and will never get resolved anyway!). in this particular case, I think we're better off with either of Osho, Rajneesh or even Bhagwan Rajneesh. Almost everyone who knows one of the three will not be surprised by any of the others. CMJ, however, would surprise almost everyone. --regentspark (comment) 15:04, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I agree that article titles are important... I wouldn't spend so much time at RM if that were not so. Andrewa (talk) 18:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Article traffic statistics

After a long time hovering around 30 looks per day, this article has suddenly shot up to about 1260. I don't know why. Does anybody else? Rumiton (talk) 13:42, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

That's just editors visiting due to RFCs, RMs, multiple admin visits, etc. Regular intra-wiki affair and nothing to do with readers. Don't worry, he isn’t rising back. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 18:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Rajneesh is an actual surname forename, it's not exclusive to this one individual, anyone searching for a person with Rajneesh as a surname will most likely find this page as a top hit. Semitransgenic _talk. 22:37, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Do you mean to say that because of the move to "Rajneesh" people are accidently coming here when they actually want something else? Or have you commented in wrong section? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 03:51, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

eh? well there's this thing, called Google, if you search there, you are searching here, hence the popularity of Misplaced Pages with those engaged in SEO. Because Misplaced Pages is generally the top hit, anyone searching for a person with Rajneesh as a forename will find this article, the CTR to here after that initial search could artificially boost the traffic stats; if the figures return to normal after discussion closes, then this is not the case. Semitransgenic _talk. 18:16, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

At present, it seems that there is no other existing article that could be named Rajneesh, see my comment above . But what other topics could be so described? It could be a whole new ball game if the topic of this article turns out not to be the primary meaning of Rajneesh. I doubt that this will lead anywhere, but if there's a case to be made let's hear it. Andrewa (talk) 08:44, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

see above. Semitransgenic _talk. 18:16, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

But there doesn't seem to be any article which you (or anyone else) has suggested could be at Rajneesh instead of this one, is that correct? If not, can you be specific? Andrewa (talk) 19:55, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

that's a different issue, within Misplaced Pages there isn't any other article, although the town Antelope, Oregon was for a time, in the 80s, known as Rajneesh. Semitransgenic _talk. 20:45, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

OK, my poor expression. I meant there doesn't seem to be any other possible article. Good point about Antelope, but it's unlikely to cause any problems so far as primary meaning goes. Andrewa (talk) 06:23, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Better (higher resolution) photo?

I can't upload anything because I haven't made any edits. Could someone upload a high resolution photo of Osho? The resolution of the current photo does not meet Misplaced Pages's standards. Thanks.

Suggest: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-UHEbxoQ4bfE/TVVzD7e159I/AAAAAAAAAJc/mZxxWB4HCSY/s1600/osho-1.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zanavaark (talk • contribs) 16:59, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Verification Issue With Two Sources

Just a heads up if anyone is actively updating this page. Fitzgerald's articles in the New Yorker are now archived behind a paywall. Citations from them are now unable to be verified without subscribing to the magazine, so another source for the info they confirmed might be worth adding. Not a big deal, of course, but I noticed it and figured I'd mention it. Godless11B's gonna die the way he lived. 08:28, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Recent edit

A newer editor has twice made several changes to this article and has now contacted me on my talk page.

Here is a quick summary of the issues I had with the edits.

]].

• "1984 Bioterror attack" anchor removed. This is a functional issue. The anchor exists because other articles directly link to this section. Removing the anchor breaks navigation.

• "1984 bioterror attack" section renamed "Criticism". This section deals specifically with the bioterrorism attack tied to Rajneesh. The title is both descriptive and in common use.

• "Legacy" section moved ahead of "Controversy" section. "Legacy" deals with impact after the subject's death. The end of the article is logical.

• Addition of apologetic introduction to controversies. ("Rajneesh was a particularly good humoured man, and many of his words said in jest or to inspire critical thought, taken out of context, can be misconstrued (potentially). The following are said to have been said by him, but this is dubitable & there are no page numbers in the references. They are not the type of thing (subject or tone) mentioned in his discourses.") This material is unsourced and POV. - SummerPhD (talk) 12:01, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Recent edit

A newer editor has twice made several changes to this article and has now contacted me on my talk page.

Here is a quick summary of the issues I had with the edits.

• "1984 Bioterror attack" anchor removed. This is a functional issue. The anchor exists because other articles directly link to this section. Removing the anchor breaks navigation.

• "1984 bioterror attack" section renamed "Criticism". This section deals specifically with the bioterrorism attack tied to Rajneesh. The title is both descriptive and in common use.

• "Legacy" section moved ahead of "Controversy" section. "Legacy" deals with impact after the subject's death. The end of the article is logical.

• Addition of apologetic introduction to controversies. ("Rajneesh was a particularly good humoured man, and many of his words said in jest or to inspire critical thought, taken out of context, can be misconstrued (potentially). The following are said to have been said by him, but this is dubitable & there are no page numbers in the references. They are not the type of thing (subject or tone) mentioned in his discourses.") This material is unsourced and POV. - SummerPhD (talk) 12:02, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Rajneesh

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Rajneesh's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "OGN":

• From The Dalles, Oregon: McArthur, Lewis A.; McArthur, Lewis L. (1992) . Oregon Geographic Names (6th ed.). Portland, Oregon: Oregon Historical Society Press. p. 826. ISBN 978-0875952369.
• From Jefferson County, Oregon: McArthur, Lewis A.; McArthur, Lewis L. (2003) . Oregon Geographic Names (7th ed.). Portland, Oregon: Oregon Historical Society Press. p. 509. ISBN 978-0875952772.
• From Antelope, Oregon: McArthur, Lewis A.; Lewis L. McArthur (2003) . Oregon Geographic Names (7th ed.). Portland, Oregon: Oregon Historical Society Press. p. 27. ISBN 0-87595-277-1.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 21:50, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Rajneesh NPOV and Primary Sources

See additions by Julianraymondk and revert by NeilN.

The good faith edits including primary sources are allowed by wikipedia, where the statement is direct and verifiable and obvious, especially in the biography of persons, with the published content used to describe details of what they spoke about. The policy is here WP:PRIMARY. There are no interpretations in the article, based on primary sources.

I believe this leads a balanced NPOV, since critics are usually secondary sources allowing for interpretation, but any factual errors used in interpretation can be corrected using primary resources, which is the case here. The result is a balanced critique, as critiques are woven in with correct facts.

Please be aware of the following WP:DRNC — Preceding unsigned comment added by Julianraymondk (talk • contribs) 17:11, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Copied from NeilN's talk page by NeilN diff and Julianraymondk diff at 3 april 2015:

This is just from the lead:

• "Born in a village in India, to a free rebellious childhood, and undergoing transformative experiences with death and meditation, he reported spiritual enlightenment at 21 years of age. An autodidact, and exceptional debater..."
• "On 24 Sep 1985 he made a press announcement that the investigating team instead of tracking the absconded criminals, were bribing people with immunity in exchange for statements to indict and remove as many key organizational people as possible through false charges in an attempt to cripple or destroy the commune. By Nov 1985, he was accused of immigration violations of which he accepted two minor violations upon his attorneys advice and entered an Alford plea asserting innocence but conceding the jurys ability to convict him legally."
• "Osho's return to Pune marked a resurgence in new techniques of meditative therapies and discourses focussed on Zen, and the ashram expanded. His health declined, and he left his body on 19 Jan 1990 and is said to have left his body in a very aware state after giving away his personal items."

You need to look at WP:NPOV and WP:GEVAL. Your proposed changes clearly put the Rajneesh-approved version of events front and center. --NeilN 17:03, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

The first point is necessary for coherency to show significant spiritual events or happenings, in the life of a spiritual leader. Just like we would show childhood prodigious nature of a artist/savant. The second point describes internal events that was especially relevant to the charging of immigration violation, a huge event, leading to the collapse of commune which is the primary subject of that paragraph. For a neutral pov, both versions need to be present especially when you are negating the views of the person who this article is about. Silencing the Rajneesh-view on every issue itself is a POV. Especially when accusations and counter accusations flow, a neutral space is where no ones voice is silenced. So you may not like the Rajneesh voice, but it should not be silenced for a balanced pov. What is your problem with the third. new therapies, zen discourses etc are well known.

I disagree that this is a Rajneesh-approved pov, since Rajneesh wouldnt advertise his arrest, commune collapse, highlighting of just the controversies about his teachings in the lead, and yet I have left them all in the lead, to reflect the opposite pov. Neither viewpoints should be silenced. WP:GEVAL does not apply to this article, since it is not a minority opinion or extraordinary claim of article, and since both views are significant to understanding the subject at hand.

This is the primary effort of NPOV... Misplaced Pages aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them. Editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another. As such, the neutral point of view does not mean exclusion of certain points of view, but including all verifiable points of view which have sufficient due weight. WP:GEVAL being invalid for this article, should not be used discourage the development of NPOV, of which the article has several weak spots. Julianraymondk (talk) 18:04, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

@Julianraymondk: WP:GEVAL certainly applies for this bit of puffery: "to a free rebellious childhood, and undergoing transformative experiences with death and meditation, he reported spiritual enlightenment at 21 years of age. An autodidact, and exceptional debater." WP:EUPHEMISM applies to the third point - he died, nothing else. And the second point is basically inserting a press release for the subject into the lead. Please continue the conversation here instead of on my talk page. --NeilN 18:07, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

POV-check

At 16 march 2015 Julianraymondk added a POV-tag, with the following edit-summary:

"requires pov check due to omission of details, in describing most issues, thereby presenting an unbalanced pov, tarnishes this biographical account. Miscategorization of information and highlighting of minor teachings as major ones etc."

It's clear to me if this article is regarded by him as being either too much pro or anti; please explain. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:27, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

But, given the thread above, probably too much anti. Well, I just went throught the article; I like it. Rajneesh was much more intelligent than I'd ever expected; great. A joy to read, this article. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:57, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes too anti. 1)structure --> Plan to work on it eventually. eg. Criticisms - strong summary doesnt summarize details, no details, many omissions. Positives are sandwitched between criticisms. Either needs to be pulled out, or retitled Reception to represent the jumble. Other issues like that. 2)content --> omission of details. article suffers from systemic bias (western vs eastern culture. Also studies in western acad on NRG very pov usually Judeo-Christian, or Western Secular prisms and often shoddy esp due to this groups' inflammatory history in US. native/insider accounts silenced). Eventually need to be addressed by bringing insider primary sources. 3) style and presentation --> slanted with allusions. Eg. He whistleblew on his top management inspite of risks, but presented as 'revealed', like a magician. Confounding the criminal and the innocent together as Rajneeshees etc, no nuance in presentation. out of court testimony presented as incriminating proof. lots of oddities. Again needs work. Understandable due to inflammatory historicity but style and presentation should be neutral. Lots of work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Julianraymondk (talk • contribs) 07:37, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Homosexuality, HIV and Prevention

I hadn't looked at this article for a while, and now I see this section in particular has become impossibly synthetic. The current prose is a slavish attempt to whitewash and interpret the sayings of a highly inconsistent and idiosyncratic cult leader, to make him appear way more balanced and philosophically mature than he ever was in life. It makes for tortured reading. It might be best to revert to a previous version and thrash it out here. Rumiton (talk) 14:55, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

The recent major changes are a great improvement. Rumiton (talk) 09:25, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Rajneesh. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071012180308/http://wweek.com:80/html/urbanpulse020200.html to http://www.wweek.com/html/urbanpulse020200.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers. —_{Talk to my owner:Online} 03:15, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Historical revisionism

I've never commented in Talk before, but I've ventured forth for the first time because of how whitewashed and biased this article has now become. It should be reverted to a version where "eugenics" was mentioned, back when it had more reliable contributors and source material. —Digyucca (talk) 08:15, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

@Digyucca: Would you mind going through the article history and identifying a satisfactory revision? —EncMstr (talk) 16:49, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

@EncMstr: The 08:17, 29 June 2015 version seems to be the most recent I can find that corrects the euphemism of "genetic selection" to the more accurate (in this case) "eugenics," still contains info about Rajneesh's teachings regarding Jewish guilt and the Holocaust, and also contains info regarding the bioterror attack history. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Rajneesh&oldid=669156739

I could have sworn I'd seen these particular topics under a section heading like "Controversy," but I'm not adept at searching words/phrases via View History, so this is the best I could do with my recollection of how this article appeared the several times I cited it and linked to it in the past. —Digyucca (talk) 18:45, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 16 external links on Rajneesh. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Corrected formatting/usage for http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/28605046.cms
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nytimes.com/1981/09/16/nyregion/cult-in-castle-troubling-montclair.html
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/15/us/15bcintel.html?_r=1
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-13515651.html
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.oregonlive.com/rajneesh/index.ssf/2011/04/part_one_it_was_worse_than_we.html
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nytimes.com/1985/09/22/us/guru-s-commune-roiled-as-key-leader-departs.html
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nytimes.com/1985/11/16/us/around-the-nation-guru-s-disciples-to-sell-some-commune-assets.html
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.osho.info/trademark_information.asp
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/403145.cms
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.indianexpress.com/news/bending-towards-justice/893156/
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.hindu.com/mp/2006/09/23/stories/2006092303060200.htm
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/08/29/ING9G8DKC31.DTL
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020725/ncr1.htm
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.tehelka.com/story_main31.asp?filename=Ne300607Business_Of_the.asp
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/cbw/carus.pdf
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.enlightenedbeings.com/pdf/life_of_osho.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—_{Talk to my owner:Online} 13:26, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Osho name correction

If no one objects here (ie not a contro move), I'm planning on correcting the title to Osho under WP:RM. Osho oversaw the re-naming of his works and from September 1989 onwards all his works were published under the author name "Osho"; the Rajneesh Times magazine was changed to “Osho Times”; his famous “Rajneesh Active Meditations” are renamed “Osho Active Meditations” and more than 500 “Rajneesh Meditation Centers,” teaching his meditation techniques are renamed Osho Meditation Centers. Etc. DavidWestT (talk) 22:57, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

This article has been renamed several times recently, so I think moving it again would be controversial. See this old version of the talk page, and it would be best to review the archived discussions. Here are all the page moves of this (talk) page; the article was moved at the same time.

• 2015-05-01T07:25:29 Glauciamiguel (talk | contribs | block) moved page Talk:Rajneesh to Misplaced Pages talk:Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (Osho) (Whoever changed his name did it wrong. Rajneesh is a nickname.) (revert)
• 2013-11-01T16:51:10 BDD (talk | contribs | block) deleted page Talk:Rajneesh (G6: Housekeeping and routine (non-controversial) cleanup) (view/restore)
• 2007-02-01T12:52:00 Will Beback (talk | contribs | block) moved page Talk:Rajneesh to Talk:Osho (per discusion on talk page) (revert)

—EncMstr (talk) 07:12, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks EncMstr (talk). I've read through each. Each of these attempts weren't made consistent with the actual rules (ie they were just random deletions and forced moves). I'm suggesting a well thought move based on much of what is readily available so that Misplaced Pages aligns with--really--the rest of the world. Will you object if I make the move? Or were you merely clarifying that there were past attempts, albeit faulty ones inconsistent with Wiki rules?

Misplaced Pages was founded in 2001 at a time Osho was already known exclusively as Osho already for more than a decade. For some reason an original article was started by mistake under the name Rajneesh which has been causing confusion since then. In fact, Misplaced Pages is the only major information source using this wrong name for Osho, which is then perpetuated in other languages making it unnecessarily difficult for people around the world to find information about this world-renowned figure, known only as Osho for the past 27 years. Osho International Foundation, the source of all licensing and publishing agreements has licensed Osho's works since 1989 exclusively under the author name Osho. There are literally thousands of such agreements with more than 200 publishing houses, in 62 languages around the world, all of whom publish his work exclusively under the name Osho. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the two questions above.DavidWestT (talk) 17:17, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

@DavidWestT: For me, it is the other way around. Osho is the name I have only encountered on Misplaced Pages. I lived in Northwest Oregon in the 1980s and was—like millions of others at the time—amused, befuddled, and saturated with the antics of the Rajneeshies and whatever his followers were going to do next.

I don't oppose an article move, but I would feel better about any decision if there existed a well-balanced exposition weighing the alternatives and evidence supporting them. (Example) —EncMstr (talk) 18:01, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Sure.

• As to publishing, Amazon.com shows 4677 results for "Osho" as an author, plus 275 results for CDs music and meditations and about 100 albums under his name. By comparison there are only 1,565 results for "Rajneesh". All of his books, published in 62 languages, are now – and have been for over 25 years – published and sold under the name "Osho." In 2015 alone, there were 484 book-publishing contracts (new and renewals) world-wide for "Osho," bringing the total number of active publishing contracts for "Osho" to 2668. Sellers and licensees for works by "Osho" include Apple/ITunes, Audible.com, St. Martin’s Press, and Penguin Random House, none of whom sell anything under the author name "Rajneesh."

• Amazon.com: Osho has his own author page “Amazon’s Osho Page” under the name “Osho” and 4677 results for books, and 379 results for digital music, including meditations.

http://www.amazon.com/Osho/e/B000APLAZE/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1469528676&sr=1-2-ent

The great majority of listings were published since 1990. The results in English are similar in other language editions. "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh" has Amazon an author page without any author details listing two antiquarian titles published 30 years ago. These titles are not anymore in print. By contrast "Amazon’s Osho page" shows 4,677 titles. Other Rajneesh author page is "Bhagwan, Shree, Rajneesh" again without any author details with only one title that was in print 30 years ago.

And the search for "Rajneesh" produces 1,565 results, almost all for books by the author published in before his name change in 1989. The sales confirm that all current publishing is under the name Osho, and has been for many years.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_1?rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aosho&keywords=osho&ie=UTF8&qid=146361 318&spIA=B014H7HG3K

Other Online Sales of Osho’s Works in English are Audible.com, Apple (ITunes) Penguin Random House, St. Martin’s Press, and many other publishers, publish extensively and exclusively under the author name "Osho."

AUDIBLE.com, the largest audio book publisher in the world presents all his works only under "OSHO": http://www.audible.com/search/ref=a_mn_mt_ano_tseft__galileo?advsearchKeywords=Osho&x=0&y=0  

APPLE (iTunes) publishes works only under the author name "Osho": https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=iTunes+Osho

Penguin Random House, the world’s largest English language publisher publishes works only under the author name "Osho": http://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/authors/58946/osho

St. Martin’s Press, New York publishes works only under the author name "Osho": http://us.macmillan.com/author/osho

The results for Foreign Language Publications of Osho books parallel those in English as shown above: India. English & Hindi publications on www.Amazon.in  (India): http://www.amazon.in/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2/275-2221160-0059435?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Osho German publications www.Amazon.de: http://www.amazon.de/gp/search/ref=sr_adv_b/?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85Z%C3%95%C3%91&search-alias=stripbooks&unfiltered=1&field-keywords=&field-author=Osho&field-title=&field-isbn=&field-publisher=&node=&field-binding_browse-bin=&field-dateop=&field-datemod=&field-dateyear=&emi=&sort=relevancerank&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.x=0&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.y=0  

Spanish publications www.Amazon.es: https://www.amazon.es/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?__mk_es_ES=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=osho

French publications www.Amazon.fr (one book here with name Rajneesh): https://www.amazon.fr/gp/search/ref=sr_adv_b/?search-alias=stripbooks&__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85Z%C3%95%C3%91&unfiltered=1&field-keywords=&field-author=Osho&field-title=&field-isbn=&field-publisher=&field-collection=&node=&field-binding_browse-bin=&field-dateop=&field-datemod=&field-dateyear=&sort=relevancerank&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.x=38&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.y=9

Japanese publications www.Amazon.jp: https://www.amazon.co.jp/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2/376-1425593-7743563?__mk_ja_JP=%E3%82%AB%E3%82%BF%E3%82%AB%E3%83%8A&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Osho

Italian publications www.Amazon.it: https://www.amazon.it/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?__mk_it_IT=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=osho&rh=n%3A411663031%2Ck%3Aosho

Portuguese publications www.Amazon.com.br  (Brazil): https://www.amazon.com.br/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?__mk_pt_BR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Osho

Osho’s Autobiography of a Spiritually Incorrect Mystic is published in 20 languages:

http://www.amazon.com/Autobiography-Spiritually-Incorrect-Mystic-Osho/dp/0312280718/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1463107945&sr=8-1&keywords=autobiography+osho 2.3India Publishing

63 English and 84 Hindi books published by OSHO MEDIA PUNE

Whatever is found listed under Rajneesh are mainly second hand books from a time before the author changed his name to Osho. Rajneesh on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_14?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=bhagwan+shree+rajneesh&sprefix=bhagwan+shree+%2Caps%2C422&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Abhagwan+shree+rajneesh

All of Osho’s Meditations – internationally known as "Osho Active Meditations" are published exclusively under the name Osho, presented by more than 500 Osho Meditation Centers only under the name Osho:

http://www.newearthrecords.com/osho/ http://www.newearthrecords.com/music-store/all-products/osho-dynamic-dvd/ https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=Osho+Active+Meditations+&rh=n%3A5174%2Ck%3AOsho+Active+Meditations+ http://www.osho.com/meditate/places-to-meditate/meditation-centers

Osho Meditations (a search for "Osho Active Meditations" on Google shows 74,300 results). All of Osho’s meditations are only found under "OSHO".

A search for "Rajneesh active meditations" brings up just two results. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=%22Rajneesh+Active+meditations%22

• Osho.com

The osho.com website is solely for Osho and his work, and is reported to rank 362 in India, with 6.8 million visits a year from 160 countries.

Google AdWords average monthly searches for "Osho" in June 2016 are 301,000.

Google AdWords average monthly searches for "Rajneesh" in June 2016 are 6,600 which is 2.19% of "Osho" searches.

• Youtube

OSHO’s official YouTube Channel at www.youtube.com/oshointernational has 270,000 subscribers and 54,000,000 video views All exclusively of talks by "Osho": https://www.youtube.com/user/OSHOInternational/about

YouTube with "Rajneesh" shows 92,000 hits. Many of the "Rajneesh" hits are "Osho Rajneesh" or not related to Osho, the article subject, at all. Different people, different subjects. The first result has 201,000 views; the third result is an "Osho" video with over 2,000,000 views. While difficult or impossible to compute with certainty, Rajneesh (relating to the article subject) is less than 1% of the "Osho" YouTube channel.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rajneesh

• Facebook

The official and verified Facebook page for the author "OSHO" https://www.facebook.com/osho.international shows 2,365,829 likes or followers and is part of a series of related official language sites with an additional 3,000,000 likes on the Facebook platform.

Facebook lists all 400+ groups related to "Osho" and "Osho Meditations" https://www.facebook.com/search/groups/?q=Osho

Facebook pages search “Rajneesh” (search on 15-May-16). Summary: “Rajneesh” fans/members are less than 1% of “Osho” fan/members.

A Facebook search of "Rajneesh" under "People" lists 9 other persons, neither Osho nor Rajneesh, before listing anything using "Rajneesh."

Data: https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=rajneesh

• Press

Osho is particularly popular in India, his country of birth. India is #1 in the world in newspaper readership, and Osho is covered daily throughout India in the two largest languages English and Hindi and as well in many of the addition 17 languages published in India. Over 1000 articles a year appear in the India press. Statistics and examples of articles about Osho and/or the Osho International Meditation Resort from 2005 through 2015 are presented in the linked document. All of these articles refer to Osho, not Rajneesh.

Osho by the press: http://www.osho.com/read/osho/by-press Osho in Indian Media: http://www.osho.com/pdf/Osho_Indian_Press_Coverage_2016.pdf

Let me know if you'd like me to dig more or if this is sufficient for the move.DavidWestT (talk) 18:02, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Osho's death

Just learning about Osho. Why is there no section about his death? Most deceased notable individuals have a section on how they died. Thank you 2001:980:AEEF:1:7CA5:D70F:7983:9196 (talk) 09:08, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 13 September 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Osho. This is a close call, with NPOV concerns by the opposers noted, but COMMONNAME evidence for "Osho" is ample. While it was not mentioned in the debate, MOS:IDENTITY certainly plays a part. I will reiterate that article titles are not the place to address NPOV concerns about article contents, as long as they satisfy the naming criteria. No such user (talk) 09:34, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Rajneesh → Osho – per WP:COMMONNAME

Procedural comment. Lengthy reasoning given by User:DavidWestT listed below. Timestamp placed here for listing brevity for bot. 06:37, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

• As to publishing, Amazon.com shows 4677 results for "Osho" as an author, plus 275 results for CDs music and meditations and about 100 albums under his name. By comparison there are only 1,565 results for "Rajneesh".
• All of his books, published in 62 languages, are now – and have been for over 25 years – published and sold under the name "Osho."
• In 2015 alone, there were 484 book-publishing contracts (new and renewals) world-wide for "Osho," bringing the total number of active publishing contracts for "Osho" to 2668.
• Sellers and licensees for works by "Osho" include Apple/ITunes, Audible.com, St. Martin’s Press, and Penguin Random House, none of whom sell anything under the author name "Rajneesh."
• Amazon.com: Osho has his own author page “Amazon’s Osho Page” under the name “Osho” and 4677 results for books, and 379 results for digital music, including meditations.
• The great majority of listings were published since 1990. The results in English are similar in other language editions.

• "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh" has Amazon an author page without any author details listing two antiquarian titles published 30 years ago. These titles are not anymore in print. By contrast "Amazon’s Osho page" shows 4,677 titles.
• Other Rajneesh author page is "Bhagwan, Shree, Rajneesh" again without any author details with only one title that was in print 30 years ago.
• And the search for "Rajneesh" produces 1,565 results, almost all for books by the author published in before his name change in 1989.
• The sales confirm that all current publishing is under the name Osho, and has been for many years. 318&spIA=B014H7HG3K
• Other Online Sales of Osho’s Works in English are Audible.com, Apple (ITunes) Penguin Random House, St. Martin’s Press, and many other publishers, publish extensively and exclusively under the author name "Osho."
• AUDIBLE.com, the largest audio book publisher in the world presents all his works only under "OSHO":
• APPLE (iTunes) publishes works only under the author name "Osho":
• Penguin Random House, the world’s largest English language publisher publishes works only under the author name "Osho":
• St. Martin’s Press, New York publishes works only under the author name "Osho":

• The results for Foreign Language Publications of Osho books parallel those in English as shown above:

• India. English & Hindi publications on www.Amazon.in (India):
• German publications www.Amazon.de:
• Spanish publications www.Amazon.es:
• French publications www.Amazon.fr (one book here with name Rajneesh):
• Japanese publications www.Amazon.jp:
• Italian publications www.Amazon.it:
• Portuguese publications
• (Brazil):

• Osho’s Autobiography of a Spiritually Incorrect Mystic is published in 20 languages: 2.3India Publishing 63 English and 84 Hindi books published by OSHO MEDIA PUNE

• Whatever is found listed under Rajneesh are mainly second hand books from a time before the author changed his name to Osho.
• Rajneesh on Amazon

• All of Osho’s Meditations – internationally known as "Osho Active Meditations" are published exclusively under the name Osho, presented by more than 500 Osho Meditation Centers only under the name Osho: http://www.newearthrecords.com/music-store/all-products/osho-dynamic-dvd/
• Osho Meditations (a search for "Osho Active Meditations" on Google shows 74,300 results).
• All of Osho’s meditations are only found under "OSHO". A search for "Rajneesh active meditations" brings up just two results.
• Osho.com The osho.com website is solely for Osho and his work, and is reported to rank 362 in India, with 6.8 million visits a year from 160 countries.
• Google average monthly searches for "Osho" in June 2016 are 301,000.
• Google average monthly searches for "Rajneesh" in June 2016 are 6,600 which is 2.19% of "Osho" searches.

• Youtube:

• OSHO’s official YouTube Channel at www.youtube.com/oshointernational has 270,000 subscribers and 54,000,000 video views
• All exclusively of talks by "Osho":
• YouTube with "Rajneesh" shows 92,000 hits. Many of the "Rajneesh" hits are "Osho Rajneesh" or not related to Osho, the article subject, at all. Different people, different subjects. The first result has 201,000 views; the third result is an "Osho" video with over 2,000,000 views. While difficult or impossible to compute with certainty, Rajneesh (relating to the article subject) is less than 1% of the "Osho" YouTube channel.

• Facebook:

• The official and verified Facebook page for the author "OSHO" shows 2,365,829 likes or followers and is part of a series of related official language sites with an additional 3,000,000 likes on the Facebook platform. :* Facebook lists all 400+ groups related to "Osho" and "Osho Meditations"
• Facebook pages search “Rajneesh” (search on 15-May-16).
• Summary: “Rajneesh” fans/members are less than 1% of “Osho” fan/members. A Facebook search of "Rajneesh" under "People" lists 9 other persons, neither Osho nor Rajneesh, before listing anything using "Rajneesh." Data:

• Press:

• Osho is particularly popular in India, his country of birth. India is #1 in the world in newspaper readership, and Osho is covered daily throughout India in the two largest languages English and Hindi and as well in many of the addition 17 languages published in India. Over 1000 articles a year appear in the India press. Statistics and examples of articles about Osho and/or the Osho International Meditation Resort from 2005 through 2015 are presented in the linked document. All of these articles refer to Osho, not Rajneesh. :* Osho by the press:
• Osho in Indian Media:

DavidWestT (talk) 06:37, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Survey

• (Now Support, see below) Oppose Comment (EDIT: added in the birth name and the Rajneesh name in the lead, as long as it has those I'll comment for now and further study the name change and comments. approx. 00:20 UTC 14 September 2016) for now, since it's concerning that the article has been almost scrubbed of the name Rajneesh even as an alternate. Rajneesh died in 1990 shortly after changing his name in 1989, a name, Bhagwan Rajneesh, which was on all of his many books, lectures, public appearances and everything else related to him. The nom and in fact the article makes it sound like those books and name are hardly a blip on the available literature and life history when in fact they compromise the bibliography collection of an author, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. Late in life, and after much controversy regarding the name Rajneesh, he changed it and then passed away a few month later. Please explain further, if you would, why the name change has been so widely used and accepted in such a way that his Rajneesh name isn't even listed on his page as an alternate. I didn't keep up with his work in the late 1980s but studied his work in the 1970s, a very good writer with an impressive knowledge of the yoga sutras and other wide-ranging and important areas of yogaic and eastern thought. He's one of the only major figures in the field of the era I didn't get to meet. Thanks. Randy Kryn 12:26, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

In September 1989 the author and mystic known until then as Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (1931-1990) changed his name to only “Osho” and instructed his foundation (to whom he had assigned all the rights to his work including his personality rights and representation rights) to publish his work and to refer to him only as “Osho.” He not only changed his name to Osho but also specifically instructed his foundation and his followers not to refer to him any more under his previous names. Osho personally oversaw the re-naming of his works and from September 1989 onwards all his works were published under the author name “Osho”; the “Rajneesh Times” magazine was changed to “Osho Times”; his famous “Rajneesh Active Meditations” are renamed “Osho Active Meditations” and more than 500 “Rajneesh Meditation Centers,” teaching his meditation techniques are renamed “Osho Meditation Centers.” During a transition period all his published works carry a note of this name change: “Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh is now known simply as Osho. Osho has explained that his name is derived from William James' word “oceanic” which means dissolving into the ocean. Oceanic describes the experience, he says, but what about the experiencer? For that we use the word “Osho.” There are articles about Osho published on Misplaced Pages in 49 languages, 27 languages are published under the name “Osho,” some under combinations or his previous name, showing the mess this is creating and the need to clarify this name issue. Misplaced Pages was founded in 2001 at a time Osho was already known exclusively as Osho already for more than a decade. For some reason an original article was started by mistake under the name Rajneesh which has been causing confusion since then. In fact, Misplaced Pages is the only major information source using this wrong name for Osho, which is then perpetuated in other languages making it unnecessarily difficult for people around the world to find information about this world-renowned figure, known only as Osho for the past 27 years. Osho International Foundation, the source of all licensing and publishing agreements has licensed his works since 1989 exclusively under the author name Osho. There are literally thousands of such agreements with more than 200 publishing houses, in 62 languages around the world, all of whom publish his work exclusively under the name Osho. Apart from Misplaced Pages, the transition from previous name to “Osho” is essentially complete, and its use vastly outnumbers the name “Rajneesh” throughout the world. Since Osho changed his name in 1989, he is now known worldwide – and almost universally referred to – as “Osho”: 1) As an author of hundreds of books on spirituality and meditation, 2) As the creator of unique meditation techniques, particularly the Osho Active Meditations, and, 3) In connection with the Osho International Meditation Resort. DavidWestT (talk) 15:43, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

I understand that, and it may be the common name now, but that seems no reason to remove the former name as at least a prominent boldfaced alternate on this page. There is still the Rajneesh movement page and {{Rajneesh movement}} template, do you suggest changing those as well? The concern, which you haven't addressed, is that many people "from the olden days" still think of him as Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh ( I see his yoga sutra series isn't listed on his 'works' section on the page, maybe you or someone can put those in, especially the 10 volume series which is an exceptional addition to the literature) and that if the page name is changed the former name which he went and taught under for the vast majority of his influential era - and shouldn't the books written under that name probably still be listed under the original name? - will be removed from the Misplaced Pages page. Thanks for your long answer, as well as your concern and positive energy. Randy Kryn 15:56, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: It is important to remember that Misplaced Pages is supposed to remain independent and neutral about the topics it discusses. I have the impression that this article has been edited by people who do not have a "neutral and objective point of view" about this topic and I suspect that this renaming effort is part of that. There is a substantial number of people who are actively promoting this person as "Osho". To the general public other than his active followers, I have the impression that he is much better known as "Bagwan Shree Rajneesh" or "Rajneesh". At least the New York Times said in 2002 that he is "better known to many Americans as Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh". The fact that this name has been mostly removed from the body of the article, to me, merely suggests that there has been some biased editing by his promoters. The fact that he told his followers to start calling him a different name shortly before he died does not necessarily mean that Misplaced Pages needs to follow those instructions. Certainly while he was alive, he was primarily known to the general public as "(Bagwan Shree) Rajneesh". Of course the publishers of his works list him as "Osho" – simply because the people who now own the copyright to his works are in a position to demand that. What we need to pay attention to are reliable sources that are independent. I note that in the very lengthy argumentation given above, none of the mentioned sources of information are independent of his promoters and publishers who hold the copyright to his works. Am I wrong about any of that? —BarrelProof (talk) 22:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, for example Indian press calls him Osho: East Comes to Osho, etc. I'm going to poke around to summarize what independent media says about him. Fairly Indian Express is independent, national media in India as much as the Miami Herald is independent. Further the NYT article you're referring to throughout calls him Osho consistently throughout the article a number of times. . I don't see any substantiation of the "better known to many Americans" claim for example which Americans and what percentage is "many." I find it more dispositive that NYT says that phrase in passing and continues on with calling him Osho. In other NYT articles they also call him Osho. Here we are in 1998: and in 2014: . From Daily Telegraph to Washington Post I' seeing Osho, Osho and more Osho when journalists at reliable sources are talking about him. Osho, Osho and more Osho at major newspapers and magazines worldwide. DavidWestT (talk) 15:52, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

• Support (my earlier comments are above), as the 'Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh' name is holding steady in the lead and nobody has tried to remove it. That certainly needs to stay as an alternate name, even if some of his "followers (where'd he go?)" someday try to literally erase his former name from Misplaced Pages. It does seem like the name is 'Osho' now, and it will be going into the future. Even the last time n-grams were calculated, back in 2008, the two names were tied with Rajneesh going down and Osho rising. Randy Kryn 19:32, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - for most of the last forty years Rajneesh has been more common name, and even now it is ahead, so no need to make this change, particularly as there is a questino of WP:NPOV raised about the Osho name in the comment above.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:42, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

  The "and even now it is ahead" n-gram, which shows the Osho name just-about tied and gaining, is from 2008. "Now" is 2016. The name Osho didn't exist 40 years ago, or 30 years ago, but since 1989, so this n-gram is more accurate. The Rajneesh name is holding as an alternate name in this pages lead, and the question I have for the remainder of the page is should "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh" replace some of the Osho-descriptors on events which occurred before the name change? How has Misplaced Pages handled other late-in-life name changes within the body of its articles? Randy Kryn 10:05, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: Indian media has frequently referred to him as "Osho Rajneesh". Examples:

1. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Osho-Rajneesh-disregarded-all-laws-Ex-aide/articleshow/18592196.cms 2. http://www.hindustantimes.com/mumbai-news/doctor-claims-foul-play-in-osho-death/story-e8WJ7ytN7XtrTSmPERf9yK.html 3. http://www.newindianexpress.com/entertainment/review/2016/jan/15/Rebellious-Flower-A-sincere-biopic-869222.html Soham321 (talk) 17:13, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

• Support His Organizations are often named after his name "Osho" in most of the cases. For example Osho International Foundation, Osho dham etc. So its better if we choose this name as its more popular after his controversial death. Terabar (talk) 15:13, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose He was known as Rajneesh for the greater part of his notability. Osho can be included in the lead. Rumiton (talk) 16:45, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
• oppose yes, WP is objective and looks at a subject overall and per NPOV we follow the strongest sources covering the subject as a whole. WP is not driven by what subjects or members of an organization want (see WP:PROMO and especially WP:NOTWEBHOST. People too often mistake a Misplaced Pages article for social media or an extension of the subject's own website. Misplaced Pages is neither. Jytdog (talk) 17:44, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
• Support. Either Osho or Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, per WP:COMMONNAME, but not Rajneesh. I'm sure that nobody has a clue who "Rajneesh" may be; "Osho" may also be problematic for many, but better known than "Rajneesh"; and "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh" will surely be known by most, but is prohibited at Misplaced Pages because of the religious titles. So, "Osho". Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:49, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

• Misplaced Pages articles that use Indian English
• Former good article nominees
• Old requests for peer review
• Misplaced Pages Did you know articles
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class India articles
• Mid-importance India articles
• B-Class India articles of Mid-importance
• B-Class Madhya Pradesh articles
• Low-importance Madhya Pradesh articles
• B-Class Madhya Pradesh articles of Low-importance
• WikiProject Madhya Pradesh articles
• B-Class Maharashtra articles
• Low-importance Maharashtra articles
• B-Class Maharashtra articles of Low-importance
• WikiProject Maharashtra articles
• WikiProject India articles
• B-Class Oregon articles
• Mid-importance Oregon articles
• WikiProject Oregon pages
• B-Class biography articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• B-Class Religion articles
• Top-importance Religion articles
• B-Class New religious movements articles
• Top-importance New religious movements articles
• New religious movements articles
• WikiProject Religion articles
• Articles copy edited by the Guild of Copy Editors