Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 11:50, 9 September 2006

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Note: if you leave a comment here that you want me to reply to, here's where I'll reply to it. (The one exception, whose comments will be deleted unread whether he signs them as himself or as his sockpuppet, knows who he is.) Leave new comments at the bottom.

I reserve the right to refactor this page as I see fit, and if you are planning to post the exact same complaints to my user page and to the talk page of the article you're upset about, don't be surprised when it's deleted from here.

Recommended reading

I've just read some of the old Song Fight! talk edits. While I realize you've been around longer than a lot of people (including myself), I kindly point you to WP:AGF, perhaps with a slight "shame-on-you" tilt of the head. WP standards aren't obvious to the newcomer, and that kind of approach is only bound to produce an unpleasant confrontation. Fearwig 05:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

If you'd actually read all, rather than just "some", of the old talk page discussions, you'd realize that I was subjected to personal attacks for trying to make the entry consistent with the style of a Misplaced Pages entry rather than the style of a Song Fight! press release. If you want to be personally attacked, too, you can go edit that article, and I hope you enjoy being demonized by self-righteous self-promoters. Me, I'm not interested, which is why I ask you to take your much-belated '"shame-on-you" tilt of the head' somewhere else. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: Metaphoric use of "Siberia"?

Here you've written

In the United States at least, there is a wide association of "Siberia" with "punishing exile in everything but name", based on a belief that underlings in the Soviet system failed, they were re-assigned to Siberia.

Would you explane the meaning of this piece, please? Ъыь 15:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I will try. Many American television shows and movies during the existence of the Soviet Union made reference to Siberia. When Siberia was referenced, it was always as a punishment: for instance, if a Soviet agent failed in a mission against the United States, the end of the program might show the agent receiving news from his superiors that he was being sent to Siberia. This became so frequent that "Siberia" came to be used as metaphor for exile and punishment: "a bureaucratic Siberia" (,), for example. I think that explaining this metaphorical use will help the article. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, now it's clear. Any suggestion on commonplaces/myths cleanup? :) I think this your description will be just fine. Ъыь 16:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Redundant IMDb links

The film U.S. Marshals (film) has its own page, the {{imdb title|id=0120873|title=U.S. Marshals}} isn't necessary for the The Fugitive (1993 film) article. It belongs in the U.S. Marshals (film) article. —Gabbe 19:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Long talk page

Greetings! Your talk page is getting a bit long in the tooth - please consider archiving your talk page (or ask me and I'll archive it for you). Cheers! BD2412 T 23:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Done (whew!). BD2412 T 02:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

New cult article

Hi Antaeus. We met recently in another editor’s talk page. Since you seem to be an expert in the field I’d like to ask you a question about a cult that destroyed part of my life. Eschatology (cult) is a minority sect that became into existence at the beginning of the 20th century after a schism with Christian Science (though eschatologists are atheists). Besides the cult’s official web site I can find no information about it in the internet but I have some inside information (alas, that’s OR). The cult is flourishing in Mexico and other countries. It needs to be exposed. I have no idea how to write a NPOV article for Misplaced Pages. Is there a guide for such difficult articles? —Cesar Tort 18:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Cesar. I typed the two words Eschatology and cult into Google and this was the first result: The Curse of Eschatology. There's lots more. The best source of information about cults on the internet is http://rickross.net/. BTW, I wrote you a message on my talk page. -- Bookish 22:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, all of those critical links refer to Christian eschatology, not to William W. Walter’s cult called “Eschatology”. —Cesar Tort 22:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I realized that after I read through some of them. See my talk page for an update. -- Bookish 00:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Antaeus. Thanks for the advice in my user page. I have already created the article Eschatology (cult). Any criticism from you is most welcome. —Cesar Tort 08:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Referencing

Hi Antaeus. I am interested in any suggestions to improve my referencing. Please feel free to list them on my disucssion page. Best regards, --Fahrenheit451 18:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions, Antaeus! LOL! Actually, the online current version of the St. Pete Times is redacted from the print version, but when it gets archived, it is all there. The lecture excerptions were right from the editions compared side by side. It is appalling what rtc is censoring.--Fahrenheit451 16:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Terryeo editing again?

Hey..... I saw your observation that the anon IP that recently edited Altered texts in Scientology doctrine was making the exact same point that Terryeo has been making on the talk page... I checked the IP, and sure enough, the anon IP is 65.147.84.76, which comes from the same block of Qwest servers as Terryeo's IP (which he publicly displayed recently as being 65.146.30.209). wikipediatrix 20:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Now that's quite interesting... I notice he's been choosing smaller and smaller things to dev-T us with, as if he's trying to make sure we know that he's acting in bad faith but can't (he thinks) do anything about it. He might just wind up with a surprise, if it's so... -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi guys ! Terryeo 06:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

ARC (Scientology)

we have several instances of exactly duplicated references that should be consolidated here. -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello there Antaeus: Just to let you know I've done the reference consolidation (and put back a few references that seemed to have somehow gone missing). Best regards, --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 00:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

ah, excellent! You're one of the best, Nicholas. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Rick Ross

In all of my editing of Rick Ross (consultant), and in all of my interaction with user:Herschelkrustofsky (HK), I hadn't realized until this moment that HK wrote the first draft of the Ross article. Misplaced Pages famously has over a million editors. Yet, there always seem to be fewer than I'd thought. Thanks for letting me share my epiphany. Cheers, -Will Beback 11:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Violation of copyright related to Scientology as a business

Your edit re-added a link to probable copyright violations. Even though the information is not hosted on Misplaced Pages, a link to it may be illegal. Note that WP:EL says "Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States". It's important to note, that neither of the "convenience" links are needed for people to verify the information. In one case, the full content is available for free, with a simple registration. This issue has occurred in a number of other articles, and such links have been removed repeatedly. In the case of time.com, it's an eggregious breach of copyright, because Time is actively selling that story for profit, and the free copy directly competes with Time, and has no potential for fair use justification. Copyright violation is a serious issue for the Foundation, and I suggest you respect Misplaced Pages policy on this issue. Note, my edits had *no* effect on the actual prose of the article, and there was no justification for your revert. --Rob 15:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your opinion. -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Definition of POV fork

You mentioned that the Scientology as a business article was the "opposite of a POV fork." I can see from WP:POV_fork#Article_spinouts_-_.22Summary_style.22_articles that it's not a POV fork, but am curious about your use of the term "opposite." I'm still relatively new here and would like to learn the terminology. Thanks. JChap 16:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, calling something a "POV fork", especially as opposed to "content fork", makes a statement about the motives of whoever created it. It implies that someone made the new article for the purposes of getting around the process of editor consensus. In this case, though, if you compare the first version of Scientology as a business with how the section Scientology#Scientology as a commercial venture looked at the time the new article was created -- I haven't taken the two files and run a diff on them but I'd bet twenty cents to one that you'd find they were identical. It's hard to claim that someone's trying to dodge consensus when all they're doing is taking the results that consensus has already produced and moving it to a new location for the process of consensus editing to continue. (It is possible to produce a POV fork that way, but it involves shunting the full discussion to a new article and leaving an inadequate or non-NPOV summary behind, which wasn't the case here.) -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Reply on categories and subcategories

In reply to your comment on Talk:Ubuntu_(Linux_distribution),

1. because it came up in peer review;
2. guidelines are not policy;
3. the editor in question argued for the article to be included in two categories additional to the one it was defining.

Samsara (talk • contribs) 11:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll admit that I saw the recent edit history, filled with edit summaries about "added category" "rv, Ubuntu is a sub-cat" "cat" "have we completely abandoned the idea of hierarchical categorisation now?" "rv vandal rmv of cat" and I did not step through every edit to see exactly what each side was advocating for. The mistake I thought someone was making was the mistake I see people make over and over and over and over, and which certainly sounded like what Localzuk (talk · contribs) was saying: that if an article is in a sub-category it should never be in any of the parent categories of that sub-cat. Exceptions to that rule are very clearly stated, but I have seen people quote the entire rule in full including the exceptions and still say "And therefore Article X-Y-Z shouldn't be in any other category except Category:X-Y-Z!"

You point out that "guidelines are not policy". I prefer a formulation which, I think, encourages good behavior more than it merely enables behavior which might be good: "rules have exceptions." The reason behind the exception for defining articles is that if a subject is important enough as to merit its own category, the article defining that subject is surely important enough that readers should be able to navigate to it in one step from the parent category, rather than having to go from parent-cat to the sub-cat and only then from the sub-cat to the article. And the same logic is what led me, the last time I addressed this issue, to add Category:Linux distributions to Ubuntu (Linux distribution) and Category:Ubuntu, even though it was already in Category:Debian-based distributions. Articles which are important should be easy to navigate to and yet a reader starting at Category:Linux distributions has an easier time getting to Taprobane Linux, whose sole distinction seems to be its country of origin, than they do getting to Ubuntu (Linux distribution) -- all because Ubuntu is based on Debian and Taprobane isn't? How much sense does that make? -- Antaeus Feldspar 14:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: citations

I think I got carried away... desolé Lsjzl 01:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, you did it in good faith. It's already gotten me started thinking about ways that that section could be rephrased for the better, so that's good... -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:12, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the help on the chiro page

Antaeus, thanks for your help on the chiro page. I'm sure he has good intentions;) Please feel free to check in anytime! --Dematt 02:31, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Accidentally deleted material

Just saw what happened in the Scientology article with my edits of yesterday, sorry about it, and thanks for restoring the material I deleted by mistake. I have no idea what happened, but from now on I will make it a rule to diff myself to be sure I don't unexpectedly damage articles. Raymond Hill 14:27, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey, no problem. I've certainly had my own share of edits where I would have sworn on a Bible that I'd made a very simple edit but an actual diff showed huge changes. Sometimes I did the diff myself and found out immediately ... sometimes, unfortunately, it wasn't me who found out. So, hey, we all look out for each other, and it's cool. Enjoy the weekend! -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:09, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Charles Buell Anderson

Not an attack? Whereas the extensively cited facts about Gregory Lauder Frost's conviction is? Curious... Just zis Guy you know? 22:12, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea who the fuck Gregory Lauder Frost is, so your attempt to drag him into this seems a very dubious tactic indeed. Sticking with the article in question, Charles Buell Anderson, the idea that a page which has information a person does not wish to be said about him is automatically an "attack page" in the sense of speedy deletion criteria A6 is utterly absurd. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:54, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I missed this when it was posted and I can't remember the context any more anyway, so feel free to expunge it. I'm sure it was either (a) a profound and meaningful comment or (b) me getting two of the dozzens of open browser windows confused (again). Of the two, b is probably more likely... Just zis Guy you know? 11:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Ste4k

Is it just me or is this person out of control? I agree with all the comments you have made concerning her nonsense AfDs and her removal of valuable info from articles, citing it as POV. Nice work on restoring the ACIM link in the Charles Buell Anderson article. I'm currently having a long, and apparently pointless, argument with her on my talk page, but if her behavior continues like this I'm contemplating an RfC. Keep up the good work. --Nscheffey 02:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

re: your latest addition

Regarding your comment: "Ste4k's excuse for removing it was preposterous"

Adding unsourced information to an article is distinctly different than removing unsourced information from an article.

Per policy: Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be removed by any editor. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.

In the future, please provide reputable sources that justify the link that you provided. And please assume good faith. Thank you. Ste4k

Ste4k, the reason I have not been able to assume good faith of you in this regard is because the only other explanation that is possible is stupidity. And even that is not a convincing explanation, because it stretches credulity that you could just by chance be misstating the facts and misrepresenting policy in a way so precisely suited to promoting your POV.

Example #1: Your entire diatribe here revolves around "adding unsourced information", "articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources", "please provide reputable sources". Anyone reading that, if they thought that you were operating with reasonable competence and in good faith, would assume you were actually talking about information or material that had been added to the article. And since you only quoted half my edit summary, the half that read "Ste4k's excuse for removing it was preposterous", anyone reading this and not knowing the truth might actually fall for your pretense that this is a dispute about information or material that was added to the article with sources that some might see as inadequate.

They would never guess that what you were referring to was a link to the article about A Course in Miracles in the "See also" section, a link that you removed under the pretext that it was "POV": And why would they never guess this? Gee, I wonder if it could have anything to do with you cutting out the part of my edit summary which explained what you removed and put the lie to your claim that it was "unsourced information"? "restore A Course in Miracles to See also; Ste4k's excuse for removing it was preposterous"

Would you care to explain just what you think is necessary in the way of sourcing in order to include the main text used by an organization in a "See also" entry? Gee, I wonder if http://www.endeavoracademy.com/ could just possibly be a source we could use! I mean, they mention it in the second sentence on their index page: "The principal catalyst for this adventure into the enlightenment of humanity is the spiritual mind training of A Course In Miracles." Oh, but I'm sure you'll have some reason to object to that. It just won't be a good reason or one that leaves it possible to assume that you are arguing it in good faith. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

You have explained your action anywhere, nor have you justified your action. Please state your reasons in English rather than pointing to URL's without any explanation. If you are having difficulties understanding explanations regarding the content, please refer to the discussion pages. Thanks. Ste4k 17:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, it is your actions which have been bizarre and which have violated policy, a fact which your dishonest and selective attempts to rewrite history and policy do not hide. I do not believe you are having difficulty comprehending why your actions are incorrect and wrong; you simply don't wish to follow the same rules as everyone else. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

re: your latest reverts

You recently reverted the following twenty relevent wikilinks from an article. Can you please explain how each is irrelevent to the article? Using the discussion are for content you feel is disputed would be more appropriate. Thanks.

• Veterans of Foreign Wars
• Harry S. Truman
• Nuclear weapon
• Attitudinal healing
• Nagasaki
• Forgiveness
• United States Marine Corps
• Foundation for A Course in Miracles
• District court
• Wisconsin Dells, Wisconsin
• Schucman, Helen
• Teacher
• Thetford, William
• Heaven
• Wapnick, Kenneth
• Hell
• Williamson, Marianne
• Austrailia
• Lawsuit
• Penguin Books

Ste4k 17:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I've got a better idea. Why don't you explain why each of those twenty links which you added in a single edit is worth including in the See also of the article? Is nuclear weapon a link that we add to the article of every single person who ever had something to say about it? Is Heaven a link that we add to the article of every single person who had their theories on it? Stop being disruptive. -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Have you read this man's biography? First you say that we should be including things people may want to visit. Now you are saying the opposite. Which is the correct way? Each of these are very relevant to this man. Please use the discussion areas rather than simply forcing your point of view into edit summarys. Thank you. Ste4k 19:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Take your straw man argument elsewhere. I never said "we should be including things people may want to visit" in "See also". I said that we should be including "A Course In Miracles" because it is what Anderson's organization identifies as its primary text. Even though I did not also add "-- and that is a distinction that cannot be said of several hundreds of millions of people over several centuries," I think that goes without saying to anyone who is not trying to be disruptive. -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a source reference that agrees with your statement? I asked this of you earlier. If you do not have a source reference then your hypothesis about this man is simply original research. Thanks. Ste4k 20:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

• Veterans of Foreign Wars - At least 3/4's of this biography discusses Anderson's involvement iin WWII
• Harry S. Truman - A link to an excellent article for people intereste in Anderson's military past context
• Nuclear weapon - Another link to context regarding Anderson's landing with the marines on Nagasaki in 1945
• Attitudinal healing - Related to A Course in Miracles
• Nagasaki - Related to 3/4's of the biography discussing Andersons landing with the marines here in '45
• Forgiveness - Related to A Course in Miracles
• United States Marine Corps - Anderson was a Private First Class in the U.S. Marine Corps in 1945
• Foundation for A Course in Miracles - Related to A Course in Miracles
• District court - Related to Anderson's involvment in litigation over A Course in Miracles
• Wisconsin Dells, Wisconsin - Anderson's Home Town. Please read the biography/
• Schucman, Helen - Author of A Course in Miracles
• Teacher - Anderson is a teacher by trade.
• Thetford, William - Editor of A Course in Miracles
• Heaven - Related to Religious Figures
• Wapnick, Kenneth - Editor of A Course in Miracles
• Hell - Related to Religious Figures
• Williamson, Marianne - Related to A Course in Miracles in an equal way as Anderson.
• Austrailia - Geographic location centered around the 2nd half of the biography.
• Lawsuit - Related to Anderson's involvment with A Course in Miracles
• Penguin Books - Company which sued Anderson over A Course in Miracles

Per your request. Please learn to study the subject before making blind edits, and please discuss your hopes to improve the page with other editors in discussion. Thanks. Ste4k 20:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The Fugitive

Your comment on the rv was This is the article about the TV series; details about *that series* should come first, then the remake and the movie - If you look at what I did, I demarcated a section for the original 1963 tv series first, then the 2000 tv series remake, then the movie. How is that not what you're saying should be done? -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 20:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

See Talk:The Fugitive (TV series). -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:48, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Ste4k's incorrect assertions of personal attacks

Please assume good faith and refrain from making personal attacks. Thanks. Ste4k 16:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I made no personal attacks. I merely noted something that was the complete and utter truth: you marked a particular fact as being "not in citation given", but you had known for more than a week about a citation which addressed that fact. Perhaps you are getting confused and thinking there was a personal attack because you are aware that what you did would be regarded negatively by most people? -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Ste4k's claim that changing a header to more accurately reflect a discussion counts as "personal attacks"

Regarding this comment, pleaseassume good faith and refrain from personal attacks. Regarding this modification of my comments, again, please refrain from personal attacks. Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Ste4k 00:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Once again, Ste4k, you seem to think that anything directed at your editing that you don't like is a "personal attack". So sorry to tell you, it's not true; when you remove well-cited information that a particular party made a claim very relevant to the article because you have information from a different source (which you have not cited) and you choose to believe your source and choose to remove from the article the information that anyone disagrees with your source's view of the matter -- that is disruption, my friend. If you try to argue to an admin that you aren't disrupting when you remove verifiable information because you disagree with it, but that I am disruptive if I criticize you for that editing behavior -- let me know when you plan to make the report, because I would love to see the look on that admin's face. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Ste4k's general impression that user talk pages are for the purpose of harassing other users with pointless false accusations

Regarding this edit changing my comments and being generally argumentative: Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Ste4k 01:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Ste4k? Let's focus on the issues here. Those issues being: when you remove well-cited information about the subject of the article, that they claim a particular state of affairs, and your "explanation" on the talk page of why you would do such a thing is that you view their claim as already disproven and so wish to deny the reader the opportunity of deciding whether they believe the claim or not -- you are in flagrant, massive violation of Misplaced Pages policy and no amount of harassing other people via their user talk pages will cover that up. Comprende? -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:40, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The issues are:

1. Personal attacks referring to me rather than the article, here on your talk page, in the discussion of the article and in the edit summarys of the article.
2. Continuous assumption of bad faith.
3. Failing to discuss or recognize the issues on the talk page of the article.
4. Removing direct quotes from a cited source supplied by Nscheffey (talk · contribs)
5. Reverting back to a primary source what two other editors agreed was an external link.

Please refer to policy listed at WP:3RR. If you do not have a copy of the cited source, then I suggest that you get one. Thanks. Ste4k 05:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-07-12_Raymond_Hill

Hi Antaeus. You were named in this particular mediation case. You may want to add your insights. -- Raymond Hill 23:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Abby

Please do not delete movie posters from their wikipedia entries. Thank you. (Ibaranoff24 00:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC))

Sorry about that. It was not intentional; when trying to delete a vanity reference inserted by the poster before you, I must have accidentally edited a different revision than I thought I was editing. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Ste4k RfC

Just letting you know there is an RfC open on Ste4k. --Nscheffey 01:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Category:L. Ron Hubbard

Hi, consensus has actually been moving in the other direction over the last year for eponymous categories. See Category talk:Categories named after people ("Should these categories be placed in other categories?") and dicussions at Misplaced Pages talk:Categorization (Misplaced Pages talk:Categorization/Archive 15#Categorising "Categories by name" categories, Misplaced Pages talk:Categorization#Eponymous categories (again), etc.) Most users have agreed that eponymous categories should generally only contain Category:Categories named after people or one of its subcategories and that eponymous categories should not be placed in the same categories as their articles. --musicpvm 23:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Opertion Colorblind and Wade Watts

I see you have added Prod notices to both these articles. However you did not provide a reason in either case. It is very important that you provide reasons when using the Prod template otherwise it is impossible for other editors to react to your proposed deletion. I have removed the Prod notices from the articles; if you feel they should still be deleted, please use the AfD process, providing a reason based in policy. Thanks, Gwernol 01:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Please see Template talk:Prod for why I am placing the {{prod}} template on the articles again. If I had neglected to give a reason for proposing deletion because I didn't have one, that would be one thing, but I wrote out my reasons for both articles, and I don't think the fact that they were lost by technical difficulties should be penalized. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Keith Henson explosives

See my comment on Talk:Keith_Henson about why I removed the explosives sentence from the Druid Days section. Sentence is a non-sequitor unless it is somehow linked to Keith himself. ChrisLawson 14:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Scientology

NubbinTom is just inserting the name of the site 'YTMND' into the article. See http://wikicodesscientology.ytmnd.com/ . -- Saaber 17:46, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Southpark episode

Sir, you have reverted three times already, not me. A record album that sold millions of copies is a valid form of reference. This has passed the point of rationality. This isn't a conspiracy theory, just a subtle bit of interesting trivia. Since you admit that it is at best "trivia," why can't it sit in the trivia section?

R. Kelly is an "appliance fetishist" with his gun, and he goes into the closet with the other two. What do you think R. Kelly is in the episode for??? to Play with Tom Cruise's alleged gayness, of course. Travolta is thrown in just to obscure things. But, he is in the closet. I am telling you that the 'cement' is the Zappa song. I will take it upon myself to get this published by Trey Parker himself if you so desire. If no one gets to read it on Misplaced Pages until then, at least you will know where you learned it first.

Give me a few examples of "verifiable sources" that would have cushioned my fall from us having crossed spears, mighty Ant.

Maybe I need to be writing fiction, but its easier just to observe the reputable sources on television and radio.

OK, there's two issues: one is reliable sourcing. Harsh as it may seem, Misplaced Pages is not interested if you or I think that there's some connection between Zappa's song and the South Park episode. If Trey Parker says it, that's a reliable source -- Trey knows what he's talking about. If Roger Ebert says it, that's a reliable source -- Ebert doesn't have the inside knowledge that Trey does, of course, but he's a published writer acclaimed for his perception and expertise in the field of entertainment. If Josh Gura says it... well, pardon my French, but who the hell is Josh Gura? Why does "Josh Gura thinks this is meaningful" carry any more weight than "My Aunt Flo thinks it's not meaningful"?

The other is verifiability. It has to be possible, at least in theory, for anyone to verify that your source says what you say it says. Therefore, if you bump into Trey Parker at a party and ask him "Dude, what inspired you to make an episode about Scientology and the closet?" and he says "That Zappa song" -- you still can't use it on Misplaced Pages. If, however, someone from a newspaper or magazine is at the party and happens to catch Parker saying that, and puts that in print -- then anyone can look up that newspaper/magazine, read that article, and find out that yes, Parker did confirm that connection, and thus it's verifiable.

There it is, in a nutshell. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Great. At this juncture, I am no longer claiming that there is a connection between the Zappa song and South Park's episode OTHER than the content of those two pieces themselves, which are both reliable sources because they are themselves the original sources. We may as well the synopsis of the episode if we cannot rely on the episode as a source. Misplaced Pages nferring that Tom Cruise is being called gay from the show is a potential libellous mistake since Travolta and Kelly are also in the closet. As base as SP are, they are also clever (South Park, not Suppressive Persons.) Just as the very words we use are verifiable, so are the lyrics in the Zappa song, which L. Ron "Hoover"'s voice is depicted instructing a 'recruit' to go into the closet. Maybe you can assume good faith with me and help find a way to present this interesting bit of trivia to the community instead of lopping off my work.

The South Park episode has only a remote connection to Star Wars. This is a movie cliche' that has been beaten to death. No other entertainment product has combined Scientology and 'being in the closet' but Zappa's song "token of my extreme." For some reason, original research like the ephemeral Star Wars reference is retained, and at the same time banning the Zappa stuff. I don't worship Zappa, but it is definitely a strong link. Is this article someone's pet, or are we in the information business? The facts are the facts. Star Wars parodies itself with using old cliches. Other SP episodes make references to Star Wars, but not this one. The Zappa reference is good. Not everyone has seen any of this, but to one who has seen them all, they would know.

The idea that someone apparently quite ordinary/humble turns out to be The Prophesied One -- that is a cliche. The idea that "extraordinary high <Treknobabble> levels in the blood" identify that special person is a definite reference to The Phantom Empire. -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Point is, there is no source that verifies what you are saying. Not even Phantom Empire... wait, is there even a movie called that?

Again, I suggest that you read WP:POINT and realize that you are responsible for abiding by it. I also suggest that you try to comprehend that the fact that someone else used the phrase "in the closet" in a work satirizing Scientology before South Park did just means that someone else used a very common phrase, and does not point to any great significant secret meaning or understanding that must be noted. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

You have captured the essence of the argument exactly, there is NO secret meaning, all that must be done is to see the notable sources themselves. This is no more a co-incidence than your precious Star Wars brainchild. Zappa wrote about the exact circumstances of this episode, and since Zappa happened before Star Wars part ten (your generation,) it is antiquated, arcane information... the scary vinyl record jacket peels off the pile of cobweb and dust covered ancient tunes of yesteryear under the prying eyes of a sleuthing science fiction writer that's only desire is to ruin antonio felspar's day with adding UNREFERENCE-able, impossible to locate illegal "truth." It takes a preacher to bless this as truth, because there is no technology left to listen to a vinyl record that belonged to your grand daddy. no eyes of your own to watch the south park episode, and no brain of your own to see the uncanny similarity between the two original sources. Does your job feel thankless?

links to read: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/03/out_of_the_park.html http://www.mlyrics.com/lyrics/Frank_Zappa/Unknown/A_Token_of_My_Extreme/ http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060721181742AA2gkqY

You know, if someone wanted to be a completely anal-retentive anorak, they could measure an exact time in sixtieths-of-a-second from the time the first line of dialog starts to the time that the last line of dialog ends. They could then find some other television program that, measured by the same standard, comes out to exactly the same figure. Would that be significant and worth including? No. And all your violations of WP:CIVIL will not make it so. My advice: quit while you're ahead, and I will be more charitable than you deserve and not report your childish personal attacks on me. -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Your childish actions started ,and maintain, this revert war. To you, Misplaced Pages is not a collective, inclusive project. It is a forum of petty competition and sport. In time, your energy will wane. You are the perpetrator of attacks. I only dignify them by speaking with you on your talk page. You lack in more 'good Misplaced Pages qualities' than you make up for with your select knowledge of disciplinary proceedings. If you are going to enforce rules in this community, try to follow them yourself. You broke rule #1, but that doesnt give you the green light to break all the others. Quit while you are ahead, as you are just as succeptible to being banned as anyone else. Stop threatening other Wikipedians, please. Must you 'lord over' each detail discussed in this article? Where is your 'good faith?'

"Good faith" refers only to the spirit in which a contributor makes their edits; thus, "assume good faith" would be the rule that you are violating when you presume to tell me the contents of my own mind and tell me that I view Misplaced Pages as a "forum of petty competition and sport". It does not refer to the quality of edits; thus, if you are insistently adding a dull, unimportant "coincidence" which is not in any way important or notable, it does not mean that I am to "assume good faith" and pretend that there is actually merit to it. As for your threat that you will try to get me banned, I will suggest again that before you do far more damage to yourself than to me, you quit while you're ahead and find some contribution to make to Misplaced Pages besides the dubious "contribution" of a very unimportant factoid to the episode article. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The snow white program

I am trying to find one or more documents written by Hubbard that would be primary sources to support the idea that: "The 'Snow White Program' was written by L. Ron Hubbard"
Can you indicate the part of Bare-faced Messiah that associates something Hubbard wrote to the "Snow White Program"? I tried searching the online version and came up empty.
I found this website which shows a document called "Project Hunter" that Chris Owen said was, "written by L. Ron Hubbard himself on 20 April 1973" and was "the original Snow White plan".
Do you know of any other similar documents written by Hubbard and that might represent the Snow White Program as written by Hubbard? --JWSchmidt 03:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how you came up empty with Bare-Faced Messiah, actually. Even if you didn't see the page numbers in the comment, the online version does have the index, where you can look up "Operation Snow White". Checking those occurences would have shown you the text at the end of page 317 and the beginning of 318: "Hubbard, who had never been fettered by convention or strict observance of the law, conceived a simple, but startlingly audacious, plan to improve his own image and that of his church for the benefit of future generations of Scientologists. All that needed to be done, he decided, was to infiltrate the agencies concerned, steal the relevant files and either destroy or launder any damaging information they contained. To a man who had founded both a church and a" -- page 317 ends, page 318 begins -- "private navy this was a perfectly feasible scheme. The operation was given the code name Snow White - two words that would figure ever more prominently over the next few months in the communications between the Guardian's Office in Los Angeles and the Commodore's hiding place in Queens, New York." There you go, a perfectly suitable secondary source, and of course secondary sources are actually preferable to primary sources. However, if you'd like a secondary source that quotes the primary source more directly, try this article from The Globe and Mail: . -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:30, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I am looking for one or more documents that were written by Hubbard. The Operation Snow White article indicates that Hubbard wrote the Snow White Program. The only way to understand what this means and verify it is to find the documents. If we cannot find the original docuents, then we might be able to say, "Mr. X claimed to have seen documents written by Hubbard....."
What document written by Hubbard suggested a plan that was to, "steal the relevant files and either destroy or launder any damaging information they contained"? The one document I found so far ("Project Hunter") contains plans for law suits and says, "Any action taken against this area must also be very polite and not abusive". --JWSchmidt 05:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm sorry for your poor understanding of WP:RS, then. You might want to correct that. -- Antaeus Feldspar 05:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Miscavige the pauper

Anateus, I was examining the Scientology_beliefs_and_practices#Salaries. I have no problem with the statement that they recieve "modest" (or rather, what Americans would call modest) salaries, however I feel that this chapter could mislead readers into thinking that Mr. Miscavige lives a (relatively) spartan life. The pope recieves no salary, and I am sure scientologists are as, if not more, lavish with their leader. For instance, his villa (seen in aerial photographs) is definitely not of the kind usually associated with that salary range.I feel that adding a few sentences to this chapter could help clear things up, what do you think? Yandman 12:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Truth be told, when I looked at that section I asked myself "What is it doing in an article about Scientology beliefs and practices in the first place?" I almost moved it to Scientology as a business immediately, but decided to wait and think about it. The more I think about it, though, the more moving it makes sense; Scientology beliefs and practices is supposed to be about Scientology the religion/belief-system/philosophy/whatever, as specifically opposed to being about the Church of Scientology. Wherever the "Salaries" section ends up going, though, I agree that adding referenced material on "in-kind" rewards Miscavige receives would add valuable context. -- Antaeus Feldspar 13:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you in that this chapter has no place on Scientology beliefs and practices, moreover its inclusion there seems highly suspicious. Is there any way to see who added a particular word/sentence/paragraph without manually going through the history? Yandman 13:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no, there isn't such a way, though it's been proposed many times. I don't think it's actually suspicious, however. When you have a whole nest of closely related articles (as we have on Scientology and the Church of Scientology) it's very hard to always remember how the sub-topics are demarcated. If we accused of bad faith any editor who has ever inserted material into a Scientology-related article that would have been more appropriate in a different Scientology-related article, I have no doubt that we'd be pointing the finger at no less than forty percent of the editors who have ever edited Scientology-related articles -- pro-Scientology and critical viewpoint alike. -- Antaeus Feldspar 14:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

63.209.226.69 added that paragraph. All of his contributions to wikipedia are, to my complete lack of surprise, pro-scientology. Editing wikipedia seems to be a popular pastime for scientologists.... Yandman 14:29, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't tell about beliefs, as in the religion/philosophy as opposed to secular corporation... but it sure is interesting material concerning their practices, and I'd like to know if what those who still believe after breaking away from the church do any differently... What's yu view about this angle? --Svartalf 15:28, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you interpret "practices" in that sense, then there's nothing the Church of Scientology does which can't be called a "practice" of Scientology. Which would, unfortunately, rather nullify the point of the Scientology beliefs and practices article, which is to document the belief system insofar as it exists independent of any organization which practices it.

This isn't to say that there isn't anything to be said about Scientology salaries which wouldn't be appropriate for Scientology beliefs and practices; for instance, someone might have information about how the doctrine of exchange relates to provision of salaries. However, none of that is the material that's in the article now. -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:04, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

As a completely trivial-to-your-viewpoint comment, since Scientology (the philosophy) purports no belief by anyone, (no tenets of faith belief, no leap of conciousness belief) then of course "beliefs and practices" necessarily fall within religious practices. Why not drop back to the goal line that can be defended and present "education" in the template (as once was) because that is an arrangement of information which both Scientologists can not argue with and which (whatever you call that point of view, you know?) can contribute to, also. Terryeo 06:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

For once, Terryeo, you've said something which is completely correct. Meaningless blathering based on the false premise that Scientology has no beliefs is completely trivial to my viewpoint and I daresay that of everyone who likes to stick with the real world. -- Antaeus Feldspar 12:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Asif Iqbal (Guantanamo detainee 87) --> Asif Iqbal (detainee) ?_Asif_Iqbal_(detainee)_?-2006-08-03T15:34:00.000Z">

Could you please explain, more fully, why you moved Asif Iqbal (Guantanamo detainee 87) to Asif Iqbal (detainee) ? Your edit summary said you moved it because it was "simpler".

Asif Iqbal is, apparently, a common name. Asif Iqbal (detainee) is an insufficiently precise article title, because it could be about Asif Iqbal (Ayodhya bombing suspect), arrested on suspicion of involvement in the 2005 Ram Janmabhoomi attack in Ayodhya, or this Asif Iqbal, detained on suspicion of religious extremism.

If you can't offer a better explanation than simplicity, I think the article title Asif Iqbal (Guantanamo detainee 87) should be restored. It is not only precise enough to distinguish between any other detainee named Asif Iqbal, but it has the advantage that it is consistent with the names of the articles of several dozen other Guantanamo detainees whose names required disambiguation.

FWIW, when you move an article to a new name you are supposed to click on the "what links here" button, and resolve double redirects. In this particular case you didn't seem to have taken the trouble to do so. In this particular case I think this will prove to be an advantage, if you ask an administrator to undo your move.

An administrator will have to undo your move, if Asif Iqbal (Guantanamo detainee 87) is going to retain its edit history. -- Geo Swan 15:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)_Asif_Iqbal_(detainee)_?"> _Asif_Iqbal_(detainee)_?">

You happen to be incorrect; when I moved Asif Iqbal (Guantanamo detainee 87) to Asif Iqbal (detainee), I did check for double redirects. The only such redirect was Asif Iqbal (terror suspect), which accordingly I updated to point to the actual article. Would you care to explain why you are falsely alleging that "In this particular case you didn't seem to have taken the trouble to " when there are no double redirects? Also, you seem to be a bit confused about how the move process works. When the history of article title Foo shows that it has always been a redirect to Bar (as is the case when an article is moved from Foo to Bar and a redirect is automatically left in its place), no administrator intervention is needed to move the article from Bar to Foo.

As for the issue of the correct title for the article about this particular Asif Iqbal -- I think that perhaps there as well you might be a bit confused about how disambiguation is done. Whenever possible, we use the name of the person, place or thing itself, with no parenthesized disambiguation term. Why? Simple: by so doing, we maximize the chances that someone editing a Misplaced Pages page and putting the name in double brackets will link to the right article. For the same reason, when we do need to add a parenthesized disambiguation term, we try to select the disambiguation term which would be easiest for someone to guess. Are you suggesting that anyone who wants to link to Asif Iqbal should know, not just that he was a detainee, not just that he was a detainee at Guantanamo, but that he was a detainee at Guantanamo with the detainee number 87?

Frankly, what you say about "consistent with the names of the articles of several dozen other Guantanamo detainees whose names required disambiguation" is a bit alarming to me. When a person's notability stems solely from their involvement with an event or situation that is itself encyclopedically notable, there is just simply no need to give that person an individual article. Yet you are referring to "several dozen" Guantanamo detainees; what are these detainees individually notable for, apart from being detained at Guantanamo? Why is it that there is an article for Tipton Three and then individual articles for Asif Iqbal (detainee), Shafiq Rasul, and Ruhal Ahmed as well, when the individual articles primarily just duplicate the contents of Tipton Three? The only important content that is in any of the three individual articles that isn't in Tipton Three is information that should be in Tipton Three -- and isn't, because someone added it to Asif Iqbal (detainee) instead. It looks like heavy-duty merging is needed. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, we only need to disambiguate between articles we actually have. The only articles we had about people named "Asif Iqbal" at the time I disambiguated were the cricket player and the detainee. Why did you create another Asif Iqbal article exactly five minutes before complaining that 'Asif Iqbal (detainee)' was "insufficiently precise"? -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:19, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Help with a VfD?_Asif_Iqbal_(detainee)_?-2006-08-07T14:57:00.000Z">

Would you be kind enough to drop a vote on this particular VfD? ( Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bob Dobbs ) Thank you very much. --Modemac 14:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again for your help. This is turning into an entertaining little show...and compared to the Terryeo flame wars, it's barely a blip on the aggravation scale.  :) --Modemac 20:50, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Rael_Asif_Iqbal_(detainee)_?-2006-08-10T12:14:00.000Z">

I've noticed that the Raëlism article has been more or less totally rewritten over the past 2 days by User:Kmarinas86, who it seems only edits on rael-related articles. The user has made at least a dozen edits in the space of two days, some of which are pointless, some of which are acceptable and some of which are not (deletion of the "criticism" section, for example). I am uncertain of what to do about it. Should I revert everything? Should I warn the user (even though he/she will no doubt argue that this is not vandalism)? Should I tag? As a wiki-veteran, what is your opinion? Yandman 12:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It's unlikely to be vandalism by the Wikipedian definition, since he probably thinks that he's acting in good faith. What I would do is look up the other people who have edited the article in the recent past and ask for their help in keeping the article NPOV; then I would look at the difference between Kmarinas86's "current" version and the last "good" version, and wherever the good version is clearly superior, restore what was in the good version with a clear explanation. For instance, deletion of a "Criticism" section is rarely if ever in line with Misplaced Pages practice. -- Antaeus Feldspar 12:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

In fact, I'm the one who put the "criticism" sections to begin with. However, SecretLondon deleted those on the Raelian Movement page, so I began to question whether or not I should have those yet since nobody was putting stuff in there yet. Despite that, I left the one I added on Rael - as of a few minutes ago, it's still blank.Kmarinas86 21:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm. I would definitely consult with others besides Kmarinas who have edited the article. I'm checking around, and it looks like perhaps the article isn't being rewritten, so much as split up into multiple articles, of which Raëlism has become the equivalent of Scientology beliefs and practices -- a description of the belief system, independent of the organization.

On the one hand, such a split is not inherently bad (I see it seems to have the support of AndroidCat (talk · contribs), who I've always seen as a fair-minded and level-headed contributor.) On the other hand, I've barely scratched the surface of Kmarinis's contributions and already I'm finding stuff that makes me want to keep a close eye on what he's doing (for instance, here creating empty "Criticism" headers scattered throughout the article and warning anyone who would put content under those headers "back up yourself with verifiable sources" when most of the existing content is not backed up by such sources. -- Antaeus Feldspar 13:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Kmarinis seems to think that NPOV means putting "is said to be" in front of every assertion he makes about his cult. This leads to rather strange articles. Yandman 13:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

He then goes on to remove all of these "said to be" thingies. I am starting to wonder how many people actually use the Kmarinis account. Or is he just schizophrenic? Yandman 13:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Not all, just some. Also, I use the Find/ReplaceAll feature sometimes when I should have used the Find/Replace feature only. There were replacements that were in err which I ended up fixing.Kmarinas86 21:18, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

KMarinas, I know I should do it instead of asking you, but I'm somewhat busy with other things right now. I would appreciate it if you could put something in the criticism sections. The articles on Rael definitely need a series template (see the one on Scientology ) as well as a more balanced PoV. As it stands, the article does not convey the fact that this is still a sect (and by sect I define any religious/semi-religious organisation that asks you to give them x% of your income...). I feel it is unfair that the faults of other sects such as scientology (although I know the two are not comparable, to my knowledge Raelians are allowed to believe in medicine...) are brought to light, and not Raelism. I suspect you are a Raelian yourself, so if you feel you cannot do this, let me know and I will try to see what I can do. The links to critical websites will no doubt help you. If you go to the website of the Ministère de l'Intérieur, you can probably find reasons for scientology being classed as a sect in France. For the moment, I think neutrality warnings on the pages might be necessary as a temporary measure until we get both sides of the argument into the article. This is by no means a criticism of your writing: you have done some very hard work on this page, and with a bit more effort it could really be up to par. I will also post this message to your user talk page. Yandman 07:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Contradicting definitions of "sect" and "cult"

http://en.wikipedia.org/Sect gives several definitions of what a sect is:

1) "sects claim to be authentic purged, refurbished version of the faith from which they split" and "sects have, in contrast to churches, a high degree of tension with the surrounding society", in this case, the Raelian Movement is not a sect, because only one, not both, of the criteria is met.

Result-

Sect (ex. Early Protestantism): No

2) sectarianism "a worldview that emphasizes the unique legitimacy of believers' creed and practices and that heightens tension with the larger society by engaging in boundary-maintaining practices.", so the Raelian Movement is sectarian in the sense that it possesses a trait shared by revolutionary movements such as the Civil Rights Movements of 19th and 20th century America.

Result-

Sectarian (ex. Martin Luther King, KKK, Skull and Bones, George Washington etc.): Yes

3) "A religious or political cult, by contrast, also has a high degree of tension with the surrounding society, but its beliefs are, within the context of that society, new and innovative." The Raelian Movement fits this. "Whereas the cult is able to enforce its norms and ideas against members" The Raelian Movement does not fit this since it lacks a true dictatorial leadership. As you can see, this definition is able to contradict itself in the case the Raelian Movement - making it an invalid definition. "a sect normally doesn't strictly have "members" with definite obligations, only followers, sympathisers, supporters or believers." This fits the Raelian Movement, as well as a plethora of apparently normal organizations which do not push their members to do exact things.

Result-

Cult (ex. Antique Mormon Polygamous sect, KKK, Nazism etc.): No

Sect (ex. Martin Luther King etc., Gandhi's Movement): Yes

4) "The English sociologist Roy Wallis argues that a sect is characterized by “epistemological authoritarianism”: sects possess some authoritative locus for the legitimate attribution of heresy." This applies for the Raelian Movement, however, the Raelian Movement has no problem with any heresy as long as it does not violate the fundamentals, such as peace, love, and non-violence. "According to Wallis, “sects lay a claim to possess unique and privileged access to the truth or salvation" The Raelian Movement fits this, but salvation only in the case that the world "fails", though such a failure is something Raelians actively want to prevent - hence their disapproval of nuclear weapons and of war in general. "and “their committed adherents typically regard all those outside the confines of the collectivity as 'in error'”." The Raelian Movement does not fit this as they acknolwedge the greater actions of those who do not adhere to them to be nevertheless deserving of eternal life, perhaps more than they are individually (those people are given the title of Honorary Guide of the Raelian Movement, even if they have no idea of Raelians at all). Again we see the problem with using only one criteria to establish whether the Raelian Movement is a sect when more than one must be met. "He contrasts this with a cult that he described as characterized by “epistemological individualism” by which he means that “the cult has no clear locus of final authority beyond the individual member.”" In this case, Raelism fits, because the final authority is not Rael, but the individual, because Rael is not a dictator. Megachurches fit this as well, since Christian priests of this day and age are by no means dictators, and neither are guardians at Christian Retreats or teachers who "assign" activities to pupils. But the fact that one fits the criteria does not make one a cult. That is: If Z does A, and B does A, does that mean that Z is B? Not necessarily. It couldn't be objectively determined unless if it was assumed that only one (category of) thing did A. If this were the definition of cult, you would have the final say (only if you belonged to a cult); now isn't that preferrable than having someone else control you as in a sect per Roy Wallis definition? What a joke. ;)

Result-

Cult (ex. Libertarian): Yes

Sect (ex. Populist): No

Definitions 3 and 4 are in direct contradiction with each other. By accepting both definitions, it is harder to distinguish a cult from a sect. Do members of a cult need authority for a final word? #3 says yes, #4 says no. Does a sect have individuals with their own choice? #3 says yes, #4 says no. Most people would think that #3 is a better definition than #4. In both definitions, cults and sects are exculsive from each other (i.e. a cult cannot be a sect and a sect cannot be cult (an analogue to this is: red cannot be orange and orange cannot be red, but both are colors). There be some who would disagree with this and say that a cult is a type of sect (analogue: turquiose is a type of blue). As you can see, provided that there be a definition, or a set of non-contradicting definitions, of sect which can be agreed upon (which may not be the case), one must define the Raelian Movement before calling it a sect. Why not call it a sect? Sure, as long as it is stated what that label indicates exactly.Kmarinas86 05:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Can I ask that this discussion be moved from my user talk page to somewhere else? -- Antaeus Feldspar 06:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead - I don't know where to put it.Kmarinas86 07:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I put this discussion at the Sect article's discussion page. If this is acceptable to you, then you may delete this section.Kmarinas86 00:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

How Terryeo thinks Scientology should look

Check out the travesty that's Wikinfo's version of this article (some of his other edits over there are rather dubious too). Fortunately nobody reads Wikinfo so we needn't worry too much about it, but it's worth bearing in mind where he wants to go... -- ChrisO 00:09, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Well, that's what Wikinfo is (was?) for: letting each person explain a subject from their own POV. At least that's how I understood the goals of that project. It's sad to see that Terryeo can't even abide by those rules, however, and has to impose his own bizarre versions of rules such as "this is not a newsgroup of interest because it is too POV". (It's also sad to see that even when he's removing the name of the newsgroup, he still can't get the name right, and as for the writing "style" of his Scientology entry, ye gods...) -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow, my user page didn't give you a clue, but my work on wikinfo does, Chris Owen? Well, if that's what it takes to communicate an idea. Antaeus, you state that I'm not abiding by Wikinfo's rules. May I invite you to understand them? In regard to the various newsgroups and like rumor sharing, I would say this. If you google a screen name who has been active in the Scientology series articles (or their discussion pages), you'll find an interesting proliferation of said screen name. Even your own produces quite a variety of web connections. Terryeo 15:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Uh, Terryeo, you do realize that you already used that one, right? The "I've been checking up on you?" riff? In fact, you got blocked for it for a week, if I remember right. As for abiding by Wikinfo's rules, perhaps you could explain exactly how you have the authority, under Wikinfo's rules, to declare that if a newsgroup (which you cannot identify by its correct name, it seems) is "too POV", it is no longer a "newsgroup of interest" as defined in the article text. Then again, perhaps you couldn't. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Wiki process will take care of the matter if there is a problem just as it does here. Terreo's edits can be modified there as well as here. The rules are very different, Terryeo is abiding by them. The Wikinfo article on Scientology should make it look like the best thing since sliced bread. That is the policy. A companion article making it look like the very work of the devil is welcome too. I think I may be the last person on Earth that actually has no opinion about Scientology. Fred Bauder 17:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'd like to clarify that I was expressing two separate opinions on two separate matters. The first is the matter of Wikinfo's "Scientology" article. Given that Wikinfo's policy is, if I understand it correctly, to have separate articles for differing POVs, it is indeed proper for that Wikinfo article to express an unrestrainedly positive view of Scientology. I simply reserve the right to roll my eyes at that unrestrainedly positive view, and to wince at the jumbled, muddy writing style.

The second matter is the fact that, by the logic that Wikinfo should have multiple articles in order to present multiple points of view for examination, there doesn't seem to be any justification for Terryeo to be interfering with the expression of other points of view. He could have created a new article called "List of newsgroups which are not too POV" if he wanted a list that excluded alt.religion.scientology. Instead, what he chose to do was to remove alt.religion.scientology from the existing list. I don't see how those two square with each other but I do see how it fits Terryeo's noted pattern of editing towards his own fixed POV both when the rules allow it and when they don't. -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I recognize you have criticized my writing style. I appreciate you're taking the time to read and create an opinion of it. Happy Ho Ho's. Terryeo 16:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Asking for a Detached View

Hi there. Remember me? Probably not, but you set me right when I first started on how to move pages around (and when not to).

I'm having a little difficulty with Fields of the Nephilim and the user fieldsofthenephilim.com. If you take a look at the article history (and his user talk page) I have tried to explain that links to advertising sites are not suitable sites for external links, but he just disregards and keeps re-inserting. Now I realised that I carelessly violated the 3RR myself, which may draw some sanction, but am I being unreasonable in considering the link unsuitable? If not, would you be so kind as to helping to have appropriate action taken. Thanks. I have raised this query with more than one of the people who have assisted me in the past. Cain Mosni 14:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Scientology Public Relations

My erroneous agenda? Exactly what agenda do I supposedly have? I have not edited a single Scientology-related article on Misplaced Pages. I suggest you re-read WP:CIVIL in its entirety.

Neither of the two users in question, one of whom is completely new to Misplaced Pages, were correct in either their basic assessment of "Scientology Public Relations" nor in their accusing me of violating WP:NPA. The vandal Lord Xenu should have been warned with the blatant vandal template and the anti-Scientology vandalism he posted should have been deleted without question, much less an AfD.

I do not appreciate your condescension nor you're attempt to support obvious vandalism. My patience in this matter is through. I no longer wish to interact with you in any way. Republitarian 01:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Republitarian. Go read Misplaced Pages:Vandalism. No, no excuses, no ifs ands or buts. Go read it, right now. "Apparent bad-faith edits that do not make their bad-faith nature inarguably explicit are not considered vandalism at Misplaced Pages." If only one person was arguing that Scientology Public Relations could be the work of a well-intentioned but unskilled user, then you might possibly have an excuse for believing it to be vandalism. However, since many people are arguing with your characterization of the edits as "vandalism", this means it is not inarguably explicit. And simply repeating "The vandal Lord Xenu" and "the anti-Scientology vandalism" and "obvious vandalism" will not change reality and put you in the right; it will only compound your already-committed wrongs. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:36, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Fritz Lang

I noted your information on the dubiousness of Fritz Lang's Jewish ancestry. Apparently, he is being categorized in Jewish categories despite this being rather unprecented as I noted in TALK:Fritz Lang. I suggest if you have a source (a book or anything) that talks about the possibility of Fritz Lang's Jewish ancestry being dubious, you promptly add it so that these categories cannot be re-added by apparently trigger-happy users. 72.144.68.99 20:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Johnny Angel

Hi. I appreciate your concerns about the two articles, Johnny Lee Clary and Johnny Angel (wrestler). Ultimately, a single article would be best. Clary's wrestling career can be folded into his bio article. That's what section headers are for! :-)

I'm just wondering how quickly this needs to be done. Would this week be soon enough? --Uncle Ed 15:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Re:Afd for Tilman Hausherr

Relevant comments only. Don't turn this into some edit war over bad faith nominations or retaliations. We will proceed with nominating for a consensus in a civilized manner.

Please don't let this happen again.

--Nishkid64 15:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:RS

You stated: I think it is perfectly clear, Terryeo, that you were questioning Raymond's motivation, or otherwise there was absolutely no reason at all to insert the gratuitous "thus increasing his personal website traffic, you see?" in your account of Raymond's actions. If I wrote "Terryeo posts frequently to 'Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources', thus increasing his edit count, you see?" I doubt that you or anyone else would accept the flimsy claim of "I just commented on the result of Terry's frequent posting, not commenting on the motivation of Terry's frequent posting. -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The reason I bring your statement here is because it contributes to the view, "Terryeo has made a personal attack", while I have continually, repeatedly, incessently stated that I refuse to comment on Hill's motivation. In addition to my personal statement which you seem unable to accept, other editors who could view my statement as a personal attack do not view my statement as personal attack. In particular, I state, "increase web traffic". Obviously that is a result. I state nothing about Hill's motivation. Your statement contributes nothing to the issues raised. I therefore bring it here if you wish to discuss the area, inviting rather than denying communication. What you do now is up to you. Terryeo 20:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

You say you are "inviting communication". I disagree. You have already stated that your gratuitous referencing of Raymond's web traffic wasn't intended to imply that he was motivated by a desire to increase his web traffic. I have already stated that I do not believe you, since there is simply no other reason that you would gratuitously reference it. I do not see how us repeating these respective positions to each other over and over would constitute "communication" since each of us is well-aware of each other's position by now. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Yep, that's what I said and you have replied to. You haven't asked me why I said that Mr. Hill's cite would increase his web traffic. You have stated what you think my reason was. ChrisO stated what he thought my reason was. Yet, neither you nor he disagree that my statement is true. I stated the situation as simply as possible. I could have left out part of the situation. I could have not stated anything about the web traffic Mr. Hill could expect to receive from his personal website being included as a source of secondary information. I agree, it would have been possible. Or, I could have left even more of it out. I could have simply looked at it, seen that Mr. Hill edited to cite his personal website, and moved right along, mentioning none of it. I've done that before and will probably do that again. Neither did I attempt to make an issue of "Misplaced Pages editors are citing their own personal websites as they edit". I didn't blame, I didn't try to shame, I didn't try to create a stoppage. Yet, you have not asked me why I included the sentences which I admit, was not absolutely necessary at the WP:RS discussion. Instead of asking me, you have told me what you are sure the reason was. Happy Ho Ho's Mr. Feldspar. Terryeo 00:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I see that you have posted even more on this issue, which of course has the result of developing unnecessary traffic. I can only suppose that no matter how little interest I show in endless rehashing of what you did say and didn't say and should've have and might've said, you will continue to post on this matter, which of course will have the effect of developing unnecessary traffic. I believe that if you had actually had had, and wanted to communicate, a reason for bringing up the subject of Raymond Hill's web traffic which was not an attempt to imply that it was a motivation for his actions, you would have already done so -- although this, of course, would actually bring about productive communication, which would not be optimal for the development of unnecessary traffic. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Your advice sought

Hi, I see you've looked in occasionally on the Talk: Barbara Schwarz article, and we appear to have a problem there with one editor who is continuing to make personal attacks, dive into original research, violating WP:CIVIL, and this behavior is now descending into making outright false accusations, taunting, trolling, making statements of bad faith on behalf of other editors and myself, and making uncited references to provoke arguments. You've pointed out the WP:NOR policy to this user before, who is now accusing me of OR and libel. The situation is getting out of hand and bordering on WP:DISRUPT, as the editor is opening up new fronts to fight his battle to get the article deleted without a successful AfD discussion. As you're an admin and an experienced editor I'd appreciate it if you could please look over my edits and comments there and tell me if I'm violating policy and if so, how, so I don’t repeat my mistakes; or what options there are to resolve this situation. Thanks. Orsini 00:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Bad Edits or Vandalism

You wrote: "Please stop referring to edits that you don't like as "vandalism". Even if you think that they are really bad edits, unless there is no question that they were made in bad faith, they do not meet the Wikipedian definition of vandalism. -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)" The person in question has repeatedly made non-NPOV and irrelevant additions to the Tom Swift article in addition to making wholesale deletetions of the work of others, even after being asked to cease and desist several times. If that isn't vandalism, I don't know what is. MookiesDad 11:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)