Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 07:07, 10 September 2006

Template:Wikiproject History of India Move request: bring inline with Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, Elamite Empire

• Support Tobias Conradi 23:10, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Support - makes sense to me. Guettarda 22:35, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 18:13, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Espionage

How can you explain the Mauryan Empire without mentioning the use of spies?

Mauryan Empire v. Mauryan Dynasty

Mauryan Empire - "lasted from 321 to 185 BCE " Mauryan_dynasty - "from 322 BCE to 183 BCE " Contradiction?

I was navigating these pages and found something very confusing and perplexing. There is a contradiction with the pages of Magadha, the template History of South Asia and the template Middle Kingdoms of India. If i go by this article then the Mauryan Empire is a standalone entity otherwise it is merely an appellation of a famous or more successful dynasty of the Magadha Kingdom. There is a similar problem with the Sunga dynasty/ Empire articles and pages. I just wanted to know which is it? Are these two dynasties or empires because it implies a continued and persistent rulership vs. an interrupted rulership and so should be brought in line. Should Mauryan Empire be redirect to Maurya Dynasty of Magadha? or should the references be removed from the article magadha and the Sunga and Mauryans be treated as seperate kingdoms.

Whatever we decide we need to upgrade the templates Middle Kingdoms of India and History of South Asia accordingly to reflect this consistency as well. At any rate we need to merge the two articles mentioned as they replicate information. One can be a redirect to the other once we work out what goes where.

--Tigeroo 13:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Rename; Mauryan to Maurya

I propose the article be renamed to Maurya empire for consistency with the other 'empire' articles; e.g. Chola, et.c. Imc 18:15, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Rama's Arrow,

This page is about the Mauryan Empire and not Alexander; however, the version you continue to revert to finds it necessary to make Alexander the focal point of this article. There are almost as many if not more mentions of him in this article than Chanakya. The Background section is redundant and Alexander's campaigns in the rest of the article are already discussed later. Moreover, not all the kingdoms in India were small, as evidenced by Magadha. This section is purposefully meant to give the wrong impression. Lastly, there is no evidence whatsoever that the macedonian phalanx and other greek fighting techniques/formations were adopted. If you arrogate the rights of a page guardian, then please ensure that such mistakes are avoided.

How did the Mauryan Empire form? What was going on in India before it? I'm sorry, but you cannot remove the entire "Background" section. And how do you not find Chanakya's campaign to unite kingdoms against the Greeks relevant? How did Chandragupta Maurya come to have to contend with a Greek general Nicator? Rama's Arrow 02:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

That's right Rama's Arrow, ask yourself that question: How did the Mauryan Empire form? Moreover, Chanakya's campaign to unite the kingdoms is relevant, and is mentioned in the following passage, just as Alexander is. Nicator is mentioned in the following passages anyways, and is truly relevant in the two decades following the empire's founding. These are redundancies that need to be removed. The contention here is on the over-emphasis on Alexander's campaigns. Rather than ignoring my points, please take care to respond to them.

The guy has a point. The purpose of an encyclopedia article is to give the reader as good an understanding of a topic in question. As such, any mention of historical figures needs to be commensurate with their actual impact on the history. It is a bit misleading to talk about the Mauryan Empire and refer to Alexander more than Chanakya. It is also misleading to mischaracterize the nature of Indian civilization at the time of Alexander's conquests. While the kingdoms in the Punjab were not quite as militarily powerful, the ones further inside India, such as Magadha, were the most powerful kingdoms of the era. His edits have merit. While it may not necessitate erasing the entire background section, it is definitely worth editing it heavily to more accurately represent the geo-political environment of the time. Moreover, all the information in the "background" section is mentioned in other parts of the article. It doesn't really need to be there. ~Pavs

Map

According to the map, the territories of the Mauryas in the northwest seem to cover the region of Bactria, i.e. the left and right banks of the Amu Darya, which is historically innacurate :the zone north of the Hindu-Kush has always been occupied by the Seleucids and then the Greco-Bactrians. Could the creator of the map correct accordingly? Regards. PHG 23:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

is where the map comes from, its not user made.--Tigeroo 08:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Is this map free (Public Domain etc...)? PHG 23:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I have not idea at all, but the Mughal Empire uses a similar map as well.--Tigeroo 10:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge

Also a query why did you remove the Merge tag, I think the other page can be easily fit into this page, it is only a list but it carries links to detailed article pages for all the rulers.--Tigeroo 08:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it is quite usual on Misplaced Pages to separate Dynasty lists from Empire of Kingdom articles. I personally do not mind either way. PHG 23:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't beleive there is a link that even leads from this page to that, it almost seems like both were started independently and on just froze out, thats the impression created by the other article and the links it makes.--Tigeroo 10:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the Hellenstic Relations section

Is it just me or is an inordinate amount of time spent on relations with hellenistic world. It seems that more than a third of the article is dedicated to that--more space than even the origin, achievements, or rulers of the empire. In the interest of community discussion, I wanted to raise this issue before deleting the bulk of the section. My understanding of the original purpose of the stub was that it was to highlight the main points of interaction between the hellenistic and Mauryan empires and not to dominate the entire article as done here. These facts are definitely worthy of mention on this page, but not to the extent that hellenistic relations becomes almost the single largest section. The contributor curiously finds it necessary to repeat points that were stated earlier in the article and incorporate an array of crackpot theories without an iota of proof. This injures the quality of the article. First and foremost, where is the proof that this was a dynastic alliance? Frankly, since it is epigamia and not kenos that is mentioned (as noted by Dr.Nilakantha Shastri "The Age of Nandas and Mauryas", Banaras, 1952.) it is almost certainly referring to Intermarriage between Indians and Greeks. Second of all, even if a dynastic alliance took place, it is a stretch to believe that automatically a greek princess must have been the chief queen of an Indian Emperor. Third, at the time this treaty was sealed, Bindusara was already a grown man and Ashoka was already born, in 304 BCE (the settlement took place in 303BCE). Accordingly, Indian records account for Ashoka's parentage while Greek sources do not. These indigenous sources clearly note that Ashoka was born of Bindusara and a minor queen of the brahmin caste (the caste point is raised to highlight the fact that the queen was an indian and not otherwise). Essentially, this contributor develops these far-fetched notions in order to lend credence to his positions. The propagation of such "theories" are to the detriment of the quality of the article. They are being used by a contributor to lay the groundwork for his treasured notion that bactrian greeks invaded India out of a sense of justice, nobility, and dynastic connection rather than the more obvious and natural desire for conquest and expansion (as noted on the Indo Greeks page). History must be based on evidence from archaeological and accurate/dependable documentation. It should not be subject to musings of people who "like to to think that such and such a thing happened". If fantasy is injected into the many gaps of history, we are doing a disservice to both history and wikipedia's readers. Please do not commandeer this page to advance political purposes.

Regards,

Devanampriya

Hi Devanampriya. It simply happens that there is a large amount of Hellenistic ressource on the Maurya Empire, and this clearly builds our understanding of the empire. If the other parts of the article can be strengthened a bit, the Hellenistic portion will naturally decrease in weight... but the fact that it is large and highly documented is no reason to cut it down.

Regarding the discussions on marital alliance, this is just relaying here some published analysis by Tarn, Marshall etc... It is clearly just one theory, and alternative views are very welcome.

I have no "political agenda" whatsoever, but only am interested in the interactions of cultures. Regards PHG 07:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello PHG,

My friend, it also happens that there is a wealth of information on the art and architecture of the period, relations between other indian states (i.e. the andhras), the nature of the government, etc, etc. These can and will definitely be included in time. However, the concern here is that the hellenistic portion consists primarily of points that are almost all previously repeated. In essence, establishing it as the dominant theme throughout the article. That section would be better placed to discuss Bindusara's correspondence with Antiochus I, Ashoka's mentions of the various hellenistic rulers and his conquest through righteousness, and Subhagasena's friendship with Antiochus III.

Regarding the marital alliance, it is far-fetched fiction that neither author provided a shred of actual proof for. For points all previously mentioned, these musings are rendered moot, and indeed have been rendered moot, as there has been no evidence in their favor. All the points trying to link greeks with the ruling mauryan line have been negated. These same tactics were previously applied towards crediting greeks for the introduction of astronomy, drama, and a laundry list of other things because the british wanted to believe it. If we continue to use such tactics, Indians could then lay claim to the development of all western philosophy and learning since Pythagoras and his followers were all vegetarians and that theorem was first developed in India.

I am glad that you declare that you do not have a political purpose. In the interest of observing this, let us stick to the facts. What you cite is no longer valid proof much like the previous claims of Greek linkages.

Regards,

Devanampriya

I think rather than Greek sources that may have been written in Europe, it would be best to focus on Buddhist and Jain accounts of the era (keeping in mind they may have been biased against Vedic authority, etc). A good book on Chandragupta's rule by P L Bhargava is available. It suggests that rather than Greeks, it was Persians who had a greater influence on Magadhan rule - for instance in political administration of a large empire - it is perhaps no coincidence that Chandragupta and Qin Shi Huang, the respective 'first emperors' of India and China, rose shortly after the speard of Achaemenid doctrines on governance of large territories. Persia was clearly the most influencial power of this era, yet modern scholars are only now acknolwedging this. Much early British scholarship on India consisted of Euro-centric speculation - I suggest that they should be taken with a pinch of salt, given that nobody would dream of using 60 year old Nazi sources to back up modern scholarship on the racial makeup of Europe - the Hellenic world was clearly not the only major sphere of influence in this era, yet is often treated as such - there is afterall no talk of the 'Persian world', etc. Ashoka Maurya likely had a greater influence on world hitory than Alexander of Macedon, given his proliferation of Buddhism, etc (could Christianity have existed without this influence?) - yet when thinking of how one is known as a household name, and one isnt, you can clearly see the magnitude of bias, and how it arose. Misplaced Pages isnt just open source so that history textbooks can be repeated, but it a project designed to overcome the flaws in these areas, like this very kind of bias - lets not repeat the mistakes or deliberate errors of the past for a whole new generation to experience via the ultimate medium of the internet. Vastu 10:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think anyone can assimilate Tarn's or John Marshall's work to "Nazi sources". They are noted historians of the Hellenistic period, who, although arguably enthousiastic about Greek influence, are still highly respected, and still quoted extensively, regarding the ancient story of India. I don't see either why ancient Indian sources should be "privileged" versus ancient Greek sources. Arguably, Greek sources have a record of being generally more accurate, and anyway, both have the right to stand as primary sources. Negating ancient Greek sources, and negating what they suggest, is akin to censorship. All sides of the story have the right to stand, for the sake of a more comprehensive understanding of history. I personnally incorporate both ancient Greek as well as ancient Indian sources whenever I can, and expect anyone to respect both. Regards PHG 11:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Right, greek sources have been so accurate that they note that "ethiopian semen is black", "Giant ants dig gold dust", and "men with one leg bounce around throughout india". First of all, you're the one who is attempting to commandeer the page for your own purposes. You have done so before and continue to do so now. You don't read up on the topics properly before commenting (i.e. Indian Astronomy and philosophy), and you make insinuations without merit. Using all of these you concoct the furthest possible fantasies to justify your conceits.

 Tarn is quoted extensively by you, and you have used him as your basis for the statement. Regarding India, you have used Tarn's clear opinion (and not construction of facts) to drive this statement to appropriate Ashoka's legacy. Ashoka was born before your settlement, and indian sources clearly note otherwise. You have now both reason and a direct counter in the Ashokavadana. I don't see why your hero, Tarn, should be regarded as more privileged than reason and indigenous sources. Your insinuations amount to sneaky vandalism. You have done this before on other articles.
  Lastly, please don't send your thug aldux to intimidate me. His charged comments and uncivil behavior stand against the community orientation of wikipedia, and pale only in comparison to his ignorance. Let us debate like people instead of using others to intimidate each other.

Regards,

Devanampriya

Thanks for the reply PHG. I dont believe I at any point talked about disregarding Greek sources - I did however note that Jain and Buddhist sources are closer to the subject matter, and infact rather reliable, seeing as they each saw portrayal of the truth to be consistent with their agnostic philosophies. I dont see how favoring them resembles censorship of Greek sources.

'"They are noted historians of the Hellenistic period, who, although arguably enthousiastic about Greek influence, are still highly respected, and still quoted extensively, regarding the ancient story of India."' - it is this sort of enthusiasm that until recently hid the nature of the Persian contribution to early history.

Colonial era British sources, and their immediate followers, tend to be biased, hence the comparison with the Nazi regime - i.e. its not in the interest of ruling parties to promote the culture of those they occupy, it is infact in their interest to disfavor the originality and influence of the culture they occupy - the example of Sir Mortimer Wheeler's immediate assumption about an 'Aryan invasion', based upon bodies that were not even located within the same strata of the Harappan ruins, (that has plagued Indian scholarship for 70 years), is a prudent example.

Im not that interested in where this article goes - its just that things should be made more clear for people who treat wikipedia as their primary source of information - else they take these accounts at face value. Unfortunatly, while the standard wiki response is 'do it yourself' - since I dont plan on contributing to this article in any way, I have to ask that those who are, take these sensitivities into account.

When writing about an important Indian dynasty, it is best to be familiar with Indian scholarship on the matter - I wouldnt dream of going into a Greek dynasty with ancient Indian and imperial Turkish accounts as my main backing. Im not saying 'dont do it' because I want to see this article be featured - and you are a skilled contributor PHG.

The Mauryans are my faovrite pre-Christ dynasty - ill enjoy seeing what you two, as well as others, do to improve the article - good luck! Vastu 18:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear PHG,

I noticed your comment regarding the marital alliance section and was a little disconcerted when you said. "Regarding the discussions on marital alliance, this is just relaying here some published analysis by Tarn, Marshall etc... It is clearly just one theory, and alternative views are very welcome." My understanding is that the purpose of an encyclopedia article is not to espouse every "theory" under the sun. The purpose is to allow a reader to develop a general understanding of the predominant academic consensus on an issue. Mentioning fringe theories does not enrich the article, it only elevates the credibility of various crackpot theories beyond their merit. And if you choose to discredit these fringe ideas later on in the article, what is the point of mentioning them in the first place? As far as I know, Ashoka's parentage as being of a Bhramin queen is not in any credible disupte. Claims to the contrary are, currently, little more than idle musings and unsubstantiated "what if" scenarios that can hardly be considered to merit mention. Cluttering up the article with all these random references to relatively unimportant theories only serves to make the article ponderous and unreadable. Keep it pithy and to the point.

By the way, just because some point you wish to say has a source does not mean it deserves to be mentioned in an article. I could cite Stephen Colbert as my source for all sorts of crazy claims, but just because I refute them later in the article does not mean it deserved to be in there in the first place. Such a practice of insinuation will only serve to enhance the credibility of biased viewpoints. It will not improve the integrity and informativeness of an article.

-Regards, Pavs

Hi Pavs, thanks for the post. The fact that there was Epigamia is recognized by I think everybody, meaning either a dynastic alliance, or the recognition of marriage between Indians and Greeks. If it is a dynastic alliance, then there was intermarriage between the two dynasties, and of course Ashoka is a natural candidate as a result of such a union (first suggested by Tarn and Marshall). This is no crackpot theory, just a very straightforward inference from what Western sources say. Of course there is also the Ashokavadana tradition that Ashoka was born from a Brahmin woman, but not everything in the Ashokavadana can be taken at face value. There is no certainty here, and I think both accounts deserve representation. Regards PHG 20:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh please. Just because Tarn and Marshall mused about something does not mean it is the broad academic consensus on a topic, nor does it mean it deserves mention. There is nothing "natural" about Ashoka's candidacy. There is nothing there but blind speculation to even hint at it, just because you have a citation for the speculation doesn't mean it is anything less than speculation. Bindasura had a lot of children. (As many as 99 by some counts.) And the story goes that Ashoka had to go on quite a killing spree of his siblings in order to secure the throne. To say Ashoka was a "natural" candidate without any evidence to point to Ashoka above all his other siblings is patently absurd. Especially in light of the fact that contradictory sources, which actually specify his parentage, discredit it. To suggest otherwise with any measure of certainty is simply Grecophilia.

"Of course there is also the Ashokavadana tradition that Ashoka was born from a Brahmin woman, but not everything in the Ashokavadana can be taken at face value."

Oh please. I have seen you egregiously cherry pick obscure references from sources like the Gargi Samitha and Yuga Purana when it suits you. You didn't seem to have any qualms about taking sources at face value then. And even in those cases, your penchant for drawing conclusions based on independant research in this article, and others, is rather disconcerting.

Pavanapuram 23:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Pav. Please note I try to present both sides on the story as much as I can. On the Maurya-related page, I wrote both about the Ashokavadana (which did not even exist as an article and I created) and the Hellenistic tradition. I also created the articles for the Edicts of Ashoka, the Yuga Purana, the Hathigumpha inscription etc..., I created most of the graphic material on Indian art and artificats on these pages. I cannot understand your wish to select only one side of the story and eliminate the other. This is sad. History is a matter of debate with various theories. There is not "one truth". Your doubts about Ashoka's origins are legitimate, but the suggestion that he may have some Greek ascendency is also legitimate and has been published by major historians (didn't Ashoka even write edicts in Greek?). See also, "The Cambridge Shorter History of India", by J.Allan, p33: "If the usual oriental practice was followed and if we regard Chandragupta as the victor, then it would mean that a daughter or other female relative of Seleucus was given to the Indian ruler or to one of his sons, so that Asoka may have had Greek blood in his veins." Bottom line: this is referenced, published material by major historians, it has the right to be presented as per the Misplaced Pages philosophy. And if you don't like what these sources say, well, I can only be sorry for you, but please try to respect them at least. Regards. PHG 05:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

An edit war that leads to a locked article is in nobody's best interest - better to have a featured article than a locked one.

It is a shame that there is such stigma about 'bloodlines' in the world - something I doubt very much people in Ashoka's day would have cared about - but when a culture anywhere introduces the the fallic idea of purity, the cat is out of the bag, with everyone wanting to claim they were 'untouched'. The reality of course is very different - recognition of India's contribution to world culture is quite safe, but even if it wasnt, it is the open cultures, who do not believe in childish ideals like purity that have always been the most sucessfull, as they assimilate ideas from across the world. The idea of isolation is utterly fallic.

The British in the colonial era believed in long dead ideas of European racial superiority, and not so dead ideas of European intellectual superiority - this has left a permenent scar on the Indian psyche - we try to right the wrongs of the past with an equal and opposite nationalistic reaction. Same goes for other societies that have similar psychological scars, like China. Even people who know very well that the idea of purity is a complete child's dream, feel they must defend the originality of their culture simply because other people who do believe in these ideas will take a simple quote like 'he may have been partly Greek', and derive as much nationalistic fuel from it as they can.

I dont really see what is so bad about mentioning this possibility explicitly as a theory. Besides, Chandragupta was the greatest of the Mauryan Emperors - he was the Qin Shi Huang of India, and Chanakya was his Sun Tzu. Vastu 07:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Religion and lack of

Carvaka was also a major force in this period - I get the impression it was at least as powerfull as the Jain community. Ajivika was an early sect not unlike Buddhism and Jainism. Some theorise that Bindusara was a member of it. Upanishadic philosophy and Hindu reform should also be mentioned. It is interesting that out of all the classical civilizations, India is the only one where an atheistic/agnostic system had such influence - even in Greece, the major religious community opressed atheistic philosophers. Vastu 10:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Maps

I quicky added a couple of maps - Chandragupta's conquests, Bindusaras conquests, and Ashokas conquests, plus Magadha under the Shungas - they may need formatting or editing though. Vastu 19:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Vastu. Great maps. Additionallly, I think it would be nice to have a view of the territorial situation just before the advent of the Shunga. At present, the last map seems to show the terrotory of the Sungas themselves, which somewhat falls beyond the scope of the article. Regards PHG 05:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

My thinking behind that was that the map of Magadha before the Mauryas seemed to show the extent of the Nanda or Shishunga dynasty (although I have seen some maps of the Nanda dynasty that give their size at almost that of the Shungas) - however I have removed the Shunga one for the reasons you mentioned - i.e. the Shungas actually slightly expanded their rule after the collapse of the last Mauryan king. I think it will be difficult finding an accurate depiction of the extent of post-Ashoka rulership, as historical records deteriorated after his phase, so I dont think I will be able to create a map for that time period - so its probably best to stick with the current four. Good luck on the rest of the article :-) Vastu 10:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)