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Revision as of 00:11, 26 November 2016 editTheTimesAreAChanging (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users23,372 edits →Statement by TheTimesAreAChanging ← Previous edit		Revision as of 02:14, 26 November 2016 edit undoBishonen (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators80,326 edits →SageRad: note regarding re-opening SageRadNext edit →
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	{{hat\|On hold until 26 November 2016, to run concurrently with a voluntary wikibreak by SageRad. ] \| ] 08:42, 26 October 2016 (UTC).}}		{{hat\|On hold until 26 November 2016, to run concurrently with a voluntary wikibreak by SageRad. ] \| ] 08:42, 26 October 2016 (UTC). ''Note: I suggest we wait till Monday 28 November, because of the Thanksgiving weekend. I'll re-open this review then. ] \| ] 02:14, 26 November 2016 (UTC).''}}
	<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br>Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small>		<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br>Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small>

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SageRad

On hold until 26 November 2016, to run concurrently with a voluntary wikibreak by SageRad. Bishonen | talk 08:42, 26 October 2016 (UTC). Note: I suggest we wait till Monday 28 November, because of the Thanksgiving weekend. I'll re-open this review then. Bishonen | talk 02:14, 26 November 2016 (UTC).

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning SageRad

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Jytdog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:22, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: SageRad (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Acupuncture#Standard_discretionary_sanctions : discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

SageRad is on a campaign against skepticism and for giving more credence to altmed, and this WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior, civil as it may be, has been consistently disruptive on fringey medical and CAM topics like fad diets. The key issues are BLUDGEONing discussion with long soapbox-y rants against "skepticism" and for "Truth " -- a consistent behavior of using talk pages as forums, talking about "meta-issues", etc, instead of focused discussion on crafting content based on sources per policy and guidelines. He also misrepresents sources in the course of his arguments. In all of that, he fails to yield to consensus, and accuses other editors of lacking "integrity". His presence on these topics is just a tremendous time sink.

The issue goes back at least to SageRad's editing at David Gorski (a skeptic) in May 2015 (three article edits and 21 talk edits) which led to a block to which SageRad responded with the expected complaint of censorship.

From Dec 2015 to March 2016 at Paleolithic diet - see pretty much the entirety of Talk:Paleolithic_diet/Archive_6 in which SageRad bludgeoned the talk page with 180,000 bytes of talk page comments expressing his perception that the article was hijacked by "Skeptics" and was "biased"; he protested the fad diet attribution. A huge drag on the time of other editors.
- first post in Dec 2015 where he first said there is a scientific basis for the diet (against all the RS) and
- this also from December where he wrote: "I think it's pretty obvious here that there is a strong pushing to interpret the review article in the very least favorable way possible in regard to the Paleolithic diet, and this is holographically emblematic of the editing practice used in the entire article from the lede throughout the body. There is a serious wind blowing in the direction of "debunking" the article's subject throughout, and every single line is being used to slam the Paleolithic diet against a wall and to beat it up here. That's not cool. That's essentially like a witch hunt and trial against the article's subject being done by the dominant group of editors here. It's not alright. The readings here seem to strive so hard to interpret the article in question as being guilty before proven innocent. It's a witch hunt. There will never be any good dialogue here and no fair or unbiased approach to the article taken, so long as this is the prevailing flavor of the editorship here. It smacks of the same attitude taken in much of the Skeptic™ literature, and i call out the bias here." More of them same "meta-discussion" and giving his personal perception/philosophy and skeptic-complaints here (more anti-Skepticism) and here (the "integrity" bit in the face of consensus against his proposals, and "McCarthyism") and here (noodling/soapboxing against "fad diet") and here (more personal opinion) and here (more anti-skeptic general soapboxing) all the way though to
- near-last post in Feb 2016 - after extensive discussion - saying pretty much the same thing.

More recently he took his anti-Skeptic campaign to Jimbo's talk page:
- Misplaced Pages we have a problem in August 2016, and
- Misplaced Pages we still have a problem a month later, reacting mostly to the month-long block he got due to his first one.

The titles of both of these posts are direct quotes of banned user Rome Viharo's website (which I can't link to, as it is blacklisted) and the posts echo much of Viharo's conspiracist hysteria about a skeptic takeover of WP (which Viharo apparently decided must be True after the community continually rejected his FRINGE-pushing nonsense about Rupert Sheldrake and Deepak Chopra, two topics of longterm disruption with regard to altmed here in WP)

In both of the threads above you will find SageRad accusing others of McCarthyism, soapboxing, complaining about others' lack of integrity and his own adherence to The Truth. (diff (a whole "holographic" analysis of the "Skeptics conspiracy takeover" thing); diff (McCarthyist); diff (fascist, totalitarian); diff (speaking truth to power); diff there is an ideological war being waged here within Misplaced Pages. This is against the policies and rules of Misplaced Pages, and i have repeatedly been demonized as a result, not because i was guilty of violating the policies. but because i am an enemy to an ideological faction's dominance and therefore like an immune system they seek to eject me for speaking about the lay of the land in this regard); etc)

SageRad's campaign is also aligned with other altmed advocates that complain about a "skeptic takeover" of WP, like the folks at Natural News (see here for example).

He has continued that campaign in WP space:

On October 15 he opened a discussion at the Fringe Noticeboard here with more soapboxing - you can read his first three noodling remarks there.
That discussion was moved to WT:FRINGE where he has written stuff like this, soapboxing about the (nonexistent in WP) difference between institutions that create sources and the "power" in society expressed via those institutions.
On October 20 he opened a section at FRINGEN here claiming that the Chemophobia article is FRINGE in that it treated this like a psychological condition; this was a misrepresentation in that the article specifically says "Despite containing the suffix -phobia, the majority of written work focusing on addressing chemophobia describes it as a non-clinical aversion or prejudice, and not as a phobia in the standard medical definition".

What spurs this filing, is that SageRad has continued this campaign -- really WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior -- against the perceived skeptic takeover, in article space this fall.

On Sept 10, opened a section at Talk:Michael Greger (plant-based diet advocate who unfortunately often exaggerates health claims) focusing on his "skeptic" issue: Talk:Michael_Greger#Problem_with_.22skeptic.22_as_a_title, generally OFFTOPIC soapboxing disrupting already difficult discussions with Greger fans objecting to any critical discussion of Greger. Made 39 comments mostly all on this "skeptic" stuff.
On Sept 11 he jumped into the Scientific skepticism article to pursue his campaign there, making 6 edits to Talk exemplified by this where he brings no sources but just noodles on the topic and continues his campaign: "And this is not solely about paranormal phenomena, but also about other aspects of interpretation of the world through science where the social movement may have a world view that is not in line completely with the actual science, and thereby uses the appearance of the role of skeptic to promote something that is not true scientific skepticism"
On Sept 16 entered discussion at Talk:John A. McDougall, an article about another diet advocate where we have consistent low level trouble from "fans" of the diet, making 9 edits to Talk, again arguing against the fad diet attribution and writing the following (dif: "The source cited appears to not support the claim. There seems to be a lot of WP:IDHT going on where people seem to not hear that the source doesn't say what is claimed that it says" which completely misrepresented the source as I showed him I here. He went on to actually invoke Godwin's Law here.
On Sept 25 he joined a discussion at Talk:Detoxification (alternative medicine) in a section entitled "Truth of Toxins" ( right down his alley) where he helpfully brought a new ref (PMID 25522674) but then misrepresented it here and again here arguing that we should include more positive content about detox diets (the conclusion presented in the source is: "At present, there is no compelling evidence to support the use of detox diets for weight management or toxin elimination. Considering the financial costs to consumers, unsubstantiated claims and potential health risks of detox products, they should be discouraged by health professionals and subject to independent regulatory review and monitoring.") Even after that was pointed out to him here he persisted. He also brought more of his anti-Skeptic campaigning in diff (already cited dif): "Person Z calls himself a "skeptic" and some editors declare this topic is "fringe" because "it's obvious" and therefore normal sourcing considerations of Misplaced Pages are suspended and anything uttered by someone who self-identifies as a "Skeptic" and says the right combination of memes on their blog becomes a reliable source. Now i understand how Misplaced Pages works in practice, through observation of what actually happens."
Most recently at misophonia (a condition proposed in 2000 for people who have strong negative reactions to soft sounds, like eating noises)... which has been a struggle to keep neutral in the face of a lot of advocacy both by people who experience this as well as (bizarrely) by various groups who study and claim to treat people with symptoms.... He has again been abusing the talk page as a place to philosophize and push his anti-skeptic/FRINGE campaign, now about whether this condition exists or not and more generally what we do here in WP, instead of simply following sources which are extremely clear that the condition is proposed, has no classification, is not in the DSM or ICM, etc. He doesn't have access to the sources (as at the Detox article above, he was making strident claims citing only the abstract) yet he writes things like this, even after I present him with the relevant parts of the sources twice (here and later here, which he has refused to even engage. In all this he is pushing for content to be added that gives more certainty to the proposed condition than reliable sources allow and again fighting what he perceives as a skeptic agenda (dif: "Misophonia is a condition. ...The tone of the article, and the lead, should not be one of discrediting or disbelief." Argh. I dread that this is heading into another slog like the Paleo diet fiasco discussed above and I have no desire to go through that again.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

29 May 2015 block for violating BLP at David Gorski (see relevance above)
topic banned per GMO arbcom case in December 2015
blocked via AE for 5 days for violating TBAN in July 2016
blocked for one 1 month via DS for violating TBAN in August 2016

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

If you look at SageRad's contribs, this anti-skeptic pro-altmed editing is pretty much all they do here (with the exception of some Race & Intelligence work and some scattered editing on basic biology). In all these cases he is making difficult editing situations worse by adding his meta-issue to whatever the local issues are. Am suggesting a TBAN from anything related to health, as it is articles about health/alt med where he has mostly brought his SOAPBOXing and disruptive, time-wasting behavior. I would suggest alt med more narrowly but I don't want to get into endless border disputes. Jytdog (talk) 22:22, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

link updated per SageRad's request. Jytdog (talk) 15:51, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
Bishonen, I will do no more adjusting. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 16:28, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Bishonen, while i think restricting SageRad from soapboxing would help, the deeper problem of not dealing with sources and even misrepresenting them, and relentlessly advocating for his preferred content, is not going to be addressed by that. The disruption from SageRad's first edits here have been in the field of health which is why I requested what I did. Jytdog (talk) 18:23, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Tryptofish; while i see how you could suggest that this is at base an interpersonal dispute, SageRad's editing has focused on health from his first days here and there is one consistent arc of behavior that I described in my OP. Yes, that means he and I have clashed since he arrived, since my editing is also focused on health. So yes there is an element of interpersonal dispute, but in my view, it arises from my having to deal with SageRad's problematic behavior on health topics for all this time. I don't seek SageRad out; he keeps showing up on topics I edit and behaving this way. The problems are actual, not perceived by me. Jytdog (talk) 19:15, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

OK, thanks for your reply. When I filed this I was concerned it might get framed as an interpersonal dispute. I cannot deny that we have been at loggerheads since he arrived; I don't want that to obscure the facts of SageRad's consistent pattern of POV editing and his behavior pursuing that POV, since he arrived here. Jytdog (talk) 19:30, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Tryptofish I know you nodded at the problem with SageRad's behavior with your suggestion about some limit on his talk postings. However, I contest your description of this as "Some of this may be wits-end exasperation on the part of good-faith editors, but some of it is also a clash between editors who just cannot stand one another." and the mention of RfCs as a possible solution. This is not a DR thing. SageRad has demonstrated a consistent set of problems with regard to POV on content about health and behavior trying to get that content into WP. It is not going to be resolved by treating it merely as a series of good faith content disputes that can be resolved with RfCs. That is why I posted here. Jytdog (talk) 19:46, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

and now i am going to shut the heck up, unless I am asked something. :) i am arguing too hard. I am long term frustrated. Jytdog (talk) 19:49, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Actually one more thing. The history between SageRad and me does go back to his very first edits here and I am very comfortable putting that history on the table. Here is his talk page before he purged it at the start of this year; that is where key interactions between SageRad and me took place. I invite anybody who wants to cast this as equivalent to review that from the top down. Jytdog (talk) 20:07, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

fwiw, i have no objection at all to the month pause in conjunction with SageRad taking a break Jytdog (talk) 02:22, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

diff

Discussion concerning SageRad

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by SageRad

Wow. I think a few specific editors have it out for me and are making mountains out of molehills because they have it out for me.

I do my best to follow sources and make good edits. On Jimbo's page, i speak to patterns i see within Misplaced Pages. Big deal. I use forums for discussion as they're intended. Big deal.

Ironically, i've been having issues with Jytdog, the very editor who brought this here, for the whole time i've been on Misplaced Pages.

Most recently, we've been at loggerheads on the Misophonia article. I don't think i have any other atypical conditions, but i have suffered from misophonia all my life, and only recently learned that others have the very same specific condition. And so i was learning more from MEDRS sources, and made few edits there too. And now that article seems to have a pretty serious WP:OWNership problem with this editor.

Anyway, i just filed a request at the NPOV noticeboard for other editors to help out with that article, providing help with neutrality.

And then i saw the notice about this AE case, and i just have to say Wow i'm pretty incredulous. Didn't even read the long diatribe by Jytdog.

I'm honest, forthright, and speak what i see. In editing articles i've improved greatly since i began, and i think i understand the policies well. I edit according to policies. I speak honestly. I want good article -- nothing more. I want good articles that follow the best sources.

Other people have issues that i speak to problems in Misplaced Pages. Are you going to shoot me for speaking? If so then it's on your hands.

SageRad (talk) 11:27, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm pretty busy, have a child, and working. Last thing i want is drama. This is ridiculous. To anyone who sees Jytdog's lengthy diatribe, i ask you to simply choose any one aspect, and look at it in depth. Don't be fooled by the size of the complaint. See if it really holds up under a microscope. I'm not perfect, but i edit with integrity and following the policies of Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages has problems, but it's not me. SageRad (talk) 11:44, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Tiny note. So i saw Jytdog said "That discussion was moved to WT:FRINGE where he has written stuff like this" with a link here. Note that this contained typos and missing words and you should actually read this diff -- Jytdog, will you change that in your long long thing about me please? Wouldn't want to deceive a reader, would we? The difference in the text is huge in light of this case, and it's obvious i revised that immediately. SageRad (talk) 11:50, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

I had changed my statement to this and then was told that i was not supposed to change my statement. Well, ok, now i know that. I'm working on this in the margins of my time. I don't have hours to write here, and i don't want this drama nor to be topic banned, so what to do? Can i know how much time i may have? I don't have hours to put into this. Misplaced Pages is a labor of love, but if it's going to be like a court case then it's not the thing i would prioritize in my life right now. But on the other hand, litigious people can't be able to drive editors away by bringing such cases, but that may be just what happens too often. I love Misplaced Pages and want to see policies applied. Please read my other statement in the link above if you're interested. I sort of need help to know what the process is, in short terms. But on the other hand, i don't have time to dedicate to finding diffs and being a lawyer. I'm not paid to be a lawyer. 23:44, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

This is the alternate version of Sage's statement, from the diff above. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:33, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

What is the process here?

I don't have time to follow long threads of comments right now.

What do others want to ask me or have me respond to?

Is there some sort of cross-examination? Can people ask me about what they are concerned about, allow me to respond?

I do not thing Jytdog's painting of me as a really bad figure and a person on a crusade are correct. I strive to follow the policies of Misplaced Pages and it actually really bothers me that they are not followed more to the letter more often.

I do get very frustrated sometimes by what i see as some people getting off scott-free while flouting the policies, or filibustering, while others are trying to have good dialog and to use good sourcing to write good articles.

I do not think Misplaced Pages is the place to "right great wrongs" or to do anything other than report what's in reliable sources, and to copyedit and organize the content well for the readers.

I do think it matters what is covered and how it's covered, and there are many ways this can be done about any topic. The best articles arise from the good-faith discussion among editors with differing perspectives. If they can be civil and follow the policies, and also to admit when they are wrong (as everyone is sometimes) then you get good article -- and also a camaraderie feeling.

I wish i could get along with Jytdog but it's been quite rough over the last year and a half. He's taught me some things. I appreciate some of the work he does. He's sometimes kind and helpful to people, and i know it takes patience. I appreciate some of the fact-checking he does. I appreciate his explaining sourcing or other policies to other editors.

However, i see him sometimes using his great talent to actually overstep what policies say, or to bend things in a certain way, or to intimidate other editors with alphabet soup (even when sometimes the essays or guidelines don't even really apply) and i have also felt him to be very obstinate sometimes, and not willing to have a truly good dialog sometimes (as in the misophonia article where we've most recently had some tension).

Anyway, i love Misplaced Pages and i want to be here when i can, but i don't want this drama. I want people to be cooperative and even to admit when i'm wrong. I have done so -- admitted i'm wrong -- even to Jytdog in the past couple of months, which i could verify with diffs if anyone wants. I don't have time for the drama, or lawyering, for finding the 15 relevant diffs among 4,000 or whatever... i love knowledge and to work on articles, but the time sink tax when there's this level of drama is too much. I have a child and a job and relationships to maintain. It's real life.

I am willing to answer any questions or respond to any observations that are in good faith and not from specific editors (a handful) who seem to hate my guts as far as i can tell. I'm sorry they don't like me. I wish everyone would like me, but i will always speak my honest thoughts. SageRad (talk) 23:38, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

By the way, contrary to what Jytdog said, i do have access to most journal articles through my past university lab affiliation.

Lastly, i admit i may have spoken too much about patterns within Misplaced Pages, or attributing motives to other editors, which should not use space on talk pages. Sometimes it's a response to the mirror image accusations made about me.

In many ways, i appreciate Jytdog's integrity. In some ways, he really does own up to some sorts of mistakes and make corrections. He really does want to make the encyclopedia the best it can be, i believe, but perhaps needs to consider some things more carefully from time to time and not be so reactive. Sorry if that's too much critique to speak of another editor. I mean it with good will. SageRad (talk) 00:53, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Oh look.......... all the dozen or so enemies are out making horribly distorted and untrue nd biased and polemic statements against me.

This is onerous and there ought to be a boomerang instead of me being on the defense. Jytdog needs to be reigned in. Everything he says about me is actually showing HIM to be on a "right great wrongs" bender, with a mission to eradicate people who disagree with him on some axes.

I don't even have time for this shit.

SageRad (talk) 15:47, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

THE HYPOCRISY IS ABSLUTELY ASTOUNDING.

Jytdog has mounted an ideological crusade, and the people who are in continuous agreement with this come out to cheer "Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!" and others actually allow this.

Get the hypocrisy, the irony:

The very thing that Jytdog is incorrectly railing about me, is what HE is doing. Running an editor out for ideological reasons. I've expressed myself in forums meant for the purpose. He doesn't like that. He stored up a list and made a Monday-morning drop of a case to eradicate me because HE doesn't like my beliefs about Misplaced Pages.

This has NOTHING to do with the policies of Misplaced Pages. I follow those to a T. I have learned the better and if you look at my recent edits, you'll see that i follow them. Therefore there ought to be NOTHING for which to ban me from any topic. Speaking thoughts and observations on Jimbo's page and talk pages is WHAT WE DO HERE! You don't like the things i've said? That's your problem.

I'm not "disrupting" -- that's a bullshit complaint. I am speaking. You don't like the inconvenience of someone disagreeing with you. You don't like the invonvenience of having to explain and justify your edits (like at the misophonia article, where i'm still pretty sure i'm right about the reading of the sources and the fact that YOU are doing WP:OR and WP:SYN there with nosology and even doing that incorrectly.) Sorry if you're frustrated that sometimes you cannot "win" the content you want when it's contrary to sourcing and policies.

This is a witch hunt type of thing. Better analogized to McCarthyism as it's a political purging.

If you let this happen, you have blood on your hands.

See what's happening here.

Speaking these things is not a crime! The shooting of people for speaking these things is a crime.

Most of y'all who've come out of the woodword (predictably) are in the same camp -- demonstrably through your actions, words, and edits -- doing the very thing you're accusing me of merely speaking about.

This place is damned.

This place is gone.

This place is captured by an ideological crew. I hold strong and true to everything i've said through my time here. It's more instructive who's come out to make statements against me, than the content of those statements. You can see who hates my presence here because they hate the things i say. That is instructive. Think for yourself, observers.

Kill me if you must but i will not pander or lie.

SageRad (talk) 16:02, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Bishonen -- i just saw your comment in which you pinged me. I would like to request a month to get a defense together then. I would be able to process and not feel in jeopardy of a hammer coming down at any moment. The process has felt uncontrollable so far, with the sheer volume of Jytdog's long statement in which i'm described as a demon at all turns. It's far above the 500 word traditional word limit and it's too demonizing to make a simple statement about. It's too deep of a problem and needs some serious addressing. Another thing i would ask is to be able to erase the current statement and make a coherent new one. I've been in a panic mode of sorts and other things in life have been too demanding, and as a result i've written off the cuff. I've also been in shocked traumatic response to the half dozen people who've been in bad conflict with me for a long time all coming out of the woodwork to make horrible statements about me. Wow talk about a jury of one's enemies. SageRad (talk) 16:09, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Bishonen, if speaking in this way is clearly reason for a siteban in your eyes and the "court's" eyes then you might as well site-ban me and be done with it, for this place is then absolutely and proven to be an ideologically purged place where speaking of ideological purging is grounds for being purged. I can't beleive that people cannot see the absolute irony in this condition. It's so basic and foundational. A dynamic where one might see something problematic and speak of it, and then they get punished for speaking of it, is not a healthy place and actually fairly well proves that there is a problem. In other words, this place is enabling to an ideological purging by one specific group. And the very saying that i see this happening is grounds to ban me. Well then, this place IS ABSOLUTELY CAPTURED NOW BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT' and i will never be able to work well here in a collegiate way because collegiality hardly exists here and it's more like being a member of Stalin's Party -- tow the party line or be purged. So i guess you've given me your answer in your very reply.

THERE IS NO JUSTICE HERE. THERE IS ONLY POLITICAL GAMESMANSHIP AND MACHIAVELLIAN MACHINATION.

Good luck with that.

Unfortunately the effect is disgusting upon this repository supposedly of the world's knowledge which pretends to be independent and open-source but is actually controlled in this blatant way, though not obvious to those who have not been through the wringer like i have. So, good job! You've got a mouthpiece that appears to be neutral but is actually captured! I think someone is pleased with this establishment status quo.

And the irony is my saying this will be ground for my destruction as a voice in the world of Misplaced Pages.

Well, give me liberty of give me death. Guess you're choosing to give me death.

SageRad (talk) 16:33, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Dennis Brown what you propose would not be acceptable to me and i'll simply be gone, as if site-banned. I'm sick of topic bans and i'm sick of those who speak being pillories and neutralized. It's obvious that's what's happening here, and nobody has the guts to speak up, or those who would have all already been site-banned or shake in fear at a few names below who've time and again enforced the dogma. So, it's not a game i will play anymore. I'm calling it out, and for doing so if you ban me then you ban me. I will not accept any such topic ban. I will consider it tantamount to a total site ban. There's no getting around this. It's all or nothing. SageRad (talk) 17:06, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Bishonen, i will take a month wiki-break. That's great. I would love to. I was happy to be working on the misophonia article (as it relates personally and it's interesting) but then came to loggerheads with Jytdog on it, and sense he got frustrated about this, and then i posted on WP:NPOV/N about it and was happy with that process. But then on the same Monday morning before work, to get a 1,500 word screed dropped upon me felt horrible. Yes, i felt really overwhelmed and like i have no time, and felt so screwed over in an unfair way.

Here's the thing. I do see patterns here. I see editing patterns. Who doesn't? Is it wrong to speak of them?

If it's wrong then Jytdog's entire screed is wrong. If it's not wrong, then it's okay.

So why the double standard? Why's it alright for Jytdog at Talk:Misophonia to accuse others of advocacy editing, whereas to say that there are problematic patterns in his or others' editing is anathema?

Why is it wrong to point out the very obvious "Skeptic" memes and sources that are populating Misplaced Pages so ubiquitously? Why's it wrong to point out that there is indeed a project to send people to Misplaced Pages to edit with this directive, in fact, as documented by external sources?

Why is it defined as a complete and total capital offense to speak of things in one direction, and yet the mirror image is completely sanctioned, and even praised and worshipped?

Seems there is a power structure with a particular bent here.

I am not "bludgeoning" -- i've spoken the same amount as others here in some public forum locations -- like Jimbo's page, and like the talk page on the "fringe" guideline. Those were places where this discussion is sanctioned --- so why is it seen as "evidence" of my "wrongdoing" when Jytdog presents these things here?

And yeah -- the article on Dr Michael Greger -- i did indeed question the use of the word "skeptic" as a title for a person. So? That's good critique of the article. It's a real point that i can legally and rightfully bring up. Why is that presented as if it's a crime?

Jeez.... does anyone see the craziness of this AE case?

This is like The Trial. My crime? Thinking about things and speaking.

Yes, it is like Stalin's Party. There are unspeakable things. You must not say them or you get taken here, and pilloried. Yes, it is like McCarthyism.

Saying this is not wrong. You don't have to agree. But why is saying that a punishable offense?

I'll tell you why. It's a thoughtcrime.

You should think on that. Why is something a thoughtcrime here in Misplaced Pages? Perhaps because there is a power issue at play.

Anyway, i edit according to policies. You will see within the last few months, any edit i have made to an article is 9 times out of 10 a good edit with good sources. I'm not pushing anything into articles. I'm not pushing an agenda other than to make good articles following the sources.

Please, please, go to the misophonia article and the Talk:Misophonia talk page and see for yourselves. Please, see whether i am breaking any rules in a bad way, or simply trying to improve the article.

With that, i will take a one month wiki-break. I need my time for other things and have too much to do to take part in a trial of this kind, and have little expectation of justice prevailing anyway.

Sage

Statement by JzG

SageRad has taken it upon himself to be arbiter of "integrity" on Misplaced Pages. The recent discussions on Jimbotalk showed that Sage rejects conflicting opinion as invalid, and considers that intergrity is measured by consonance with his ideology. On his user page he links to a website promoting an "ethical skeptic" agenda, which promotes Brian Martin (conspiracy theorist and supervisor of Judith Wilyman's substandard and anti-vaccine PhD) and the website where Rupert Sheldrake, Dean Radin and others rant against pesky science for not accepting their beliefs. He has adopted the rhetoric of Rome Viharo, who was banned for sockpuppetry while promoting Sheldrake and woo-meister Deepak Chopra (where he also had a COI, IIRC). Sage has used the name of Viharo's website, Misplaced Pages, we have a problem, as the title of at least one o his threads: .

One could put this down to the aftermath of ARBGMO, but long before that he was inserting accusations of censorship against David Gorski based on Gorski's banning him from commenting for trolling. The skeptic community is generally skeptical about anti-GMO rhetoric, and this seems to have set Sage against organised skepticism pretty much from the outset.

All this would be fine if Sage were capable of understanding the difference between his opinion and objective fact. He consistently demonstrates that he is not.

Sage is intelligent and articulate, but he lacks the ability to accept that any conclusion differing from his own might be grounded in truth. The diffs above clearly show this. The biggest problem is that any topic ban would have to include all areas subject to skeptical activism, and I don't honestly think he edits anything much else. Guy (Help!) 22:59, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: I am not sure this actually is a case of editors who can't stand each other. I can't speak for Jytdog, but I do not dislike Sage at all. That's part of the problem: I feel very conflicted. I like him but his constant m:MPOV is vexing. In my opinion, if he could accept the possibility of any valid conclusion other than his own, he would be a valued contributor. He has the time and intelligence to read sources, after all. Guy (Help!) 22:35, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

@SageRad: You ask "What do others want to ask me or have me respond to?" Really? You can ask that still, after the recent discussions at Jimbotalk? I'd say that and contain a pretty complete answer to exactly that question. Your problem is as I state above: you seem unwilling or unable to accept that any conclusion other than yours could possibly be valid, and you clearly consider that anybody who states a conclusion other than yours is ill-informed, stupid, corrupt or some combination of the three. followed by set the tone, and I reckon the whole reason we are here is that if you took a straw poll of those who have spent time trying to work on articles alongside you, most of us would be of the opinion that left to your own devices you would make those edits again right now. It would be lovely to be proved wrong, but I have never seen any evidence of you even acknowledging that these are matters where reasonable people may differ, let alone being open to changing your mind. Guy (Help!) 15:40, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

@Bishonen: Fine with that, Sage has a new baby I think - I can still remember the effects of infant-induced sleep deprivation even two decades later. Guy (Help!) 17:36, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Tryptofish

I don't have anything particularly global to add, although I agree with Bishonen's concern that there is a genuine time-sink going on.

Some of this may be wits-end exasperation on the part of good-faith editors, but some of it is also a clash between editors who just cannot stand one another. See also: User talk:SageRad#Talk:Misophonia. It's not as simple as white-hats and black-hats.

Instead of editors getting sucked into tl;dr arguments where nobody persuades anyone else, have content RfCs been adequately explored as a way of moving past logjams? (Example RfC question: "Below are some sources that say that misphonia is a genuine disorder, and some sources that say that it is not. Taking the sources together, should this page present it as a genuine disorder?")

I've been trying to think of a possible DS restriction on SageRad that might be practical to design. Perhaps a word limit for talk page comments about AltMed pages? --Tryptofish (talk) 18:57, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog: I did not say it was interpersonal at its base. It isn't. But it is, partly ("some"). --Tryptofish (talk) 19:15, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

@Guy: I agree with you that Sage has a lot of potential as an editor, and I was referring more to Jytdog than to you, but despite the replies from Jytdog and from you, I still think that my statement is accurate. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Note: I IAR put back (collapsed) the version of Sage's statement that he had reverted, and I think that it is a better statement than his original one. @Sage: you are permitted to add to your original statement, so you can always add new stuff (well, there's a word limit that is not being followed at the moment) as long as you don't delete the old stuff; you can also strike through anything you wrote. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Kingofaces43

I've been seeing problems with SageRad continue to brew on my watchlist after their GMO sanctions. Just in the context of their previous sanctions from GMOs, part of the reasoning why they were topic banned was the exact same behavior we're still seeing here. When people start to complain about how a topic is being antagonized by SageRad's continued soapboxing, they're often met with SageRad's "What, who me?" responses when told to knock it off just like we are seeing in their response to this AE. Basically, disruption in fringe and health topics followed by playing the victim when they're behavior on article pages is called out. Add in the obvious battleground behavior, and we're back to where we were with SageRad before the GMO ArbCom case. That's especially apparent with their "othering" (i.e., "bullies") of editors that try to curtail the disruption SageRad causes in topics where they engage in advocacy or soapboxing about their personal ideals. It's becoming apparent SageRad just won't listen even after their sanctions. Same behavior as GMOs, just different topics now.

At the end of the day, I don't have strong convictions about specific action against SageRad since I don't have to deal with them in my topic areas anymore (mainspace at least), but it's apparent they just moved their behavior issues outside their topic ban. I do feel for editors that still end up putting up with this behavior pretty regularly though. Here area a few ideas for sanctions to impose on SageRad that should at least stop the disruption and maybe turn them around:

1. One-way interaction ban when dealing with Jytdog. I don't have super strong support for this as it's really just a band-aid, but the continued battleground behavior is obvious while Jytdog has been acting at least relatively reasonable (though obviously frustrated) in the face of this string of continued behavior. I'm usually open to less complicated two-way bans, but I think we can agree SageRad's behavior is the core issue here to work on first.

2. Expanding topic bans as JzG mentioned. Probably the most concrete topic ban would be a broadly construed ban on any topic related to health (including environmental contamination for clarity). A topic ban on any WP:FRINGE topic could be a secondary consideration, but that's harder to define for avoiding wikilawyering. Word limits might have been a consideration back when SageRad was newer to Misplaced Pages, but the issue here seems to be they just can't let go in these topics.

3. Long-term block. SageRad has used tons of rope already still showing behavior (regardless of what they actually say) that they are not WP:HERE and are instead using Misplaced Pages more for soapboxing and hyperbole. Maybe that can change if they are handed a topic ban that gets them out of this activism mindset and into topics where they can act like a normal editor. I think we have to acknowledge though that if this all continues, the WP:ROPE is going leading to this last option. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:06, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Seeing The Wordsmith's and Dennis Brown's comments on on applicable DS for a topic ban, this ArbCom case explicitly imposes DS on "all pages relating to pseudoscience and fringe science, broadly interpreted". In terms of DS, there would be no issue with a WP:FRINGE topic ban option, and the case could be made under that for a medical topic ban because that's where the fringe issues occur. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:17, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Skyring

After a tangential mention in discussion below, a tangential comment. SageRad has his own strong views, is well-informed, intelligent, and productive. There's a place for him here. But when he encounters opposition, rather than discuss the points of opposition in the context on improving the article(s), he takes it personal and tries to convert other editors to his views, which he considers to be the rational factual objective plain truth, and everybody else is a deluded fool or a tool of big business or something, and ultimately Misplaced Pages is fatally flawed because of this evil and that evil.

Well, it's not. It works, it's a valuable reference, it's an internet marvel. SageRad should get offa his soapbox, work with those who have contrary opinions, and for the love of ghod, stop filling pages with long rambling rants! SageRad, we love you, we want you, it's just your behaviour needs a bit of a tweak. Okay? --Pete (talk) 06:58, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Alexbrn

As an editor who has had a role in the current Chemophobia article I was surprised to see, on 20 October, postings by SageRad on both the article's Talk page and at WP:FT/N report a "POV issue" because "This article presents 'chemophobia' as if it's a psychological phenomenon ..."

On re-reading the article I saw (as did a number of other editors) that this is simply not the case: the article says precisely the opposite. This has been pointed out but since then no retraction, explanation or further comment has been made. On top of SageRad's editing history this looks far from being constructive activity. What is going on?

Because of SageRad's problematic stance towards skepticism I don't think a TBAN on health content is quite right - a TBAN needs to cover (probably in addition) any topic covered by the WP:FRINGE guidance - broadly construed - though I fear this will not succeed because SageRad seems to have a novel view of what is, and is not, fringe that is out-of-sync with the Project. Alexbrn (talk) 09:58, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Statement by OID

@Wordsmith, discretionary sanctions are authorised for a number of areas SageRad has been problematic in. So realistically you could apply any sanction you wanted (provided you felt it had merit). The real issue is that SageRad is not topic-bound in his disruption. He has an anti-skeptic agenda which manifests in disruptive editing wherever skepticism is evident. He is not pro-fringe as it was, just anti-evidence-based science. His editing MO is to show up at an article, declare bias, argue with people until he finally gets they dont agree with him, then rants about how everything is unfair.

The problem is fringe and skepticism cover a huge range of topics. From pseudoscience, lifestyle, history, medical etc. Normally a targetted topic ban would suffice, but to limit SageRad's disruption would require a 0/1 revert restriction AND some sort of enforced character limit on discussions. And even *then* that would really only just keep disruption to a minimum, it wouldnt prevent anything as SageRad has a worldview that is incompatible with how Misplaced Pages populates article content. Alexbrn has laid out the most recent example. Jzg and a couple of others say SageRad is clearly intelligent etc, but I disagree. SageRad has repeatedly failed to grasp basic wikipedia concepts & policies, and as Alexbrn's example shows above, clearly has an issue in reading comprehension. There is a CIR issue here. This may be because he skim-reads and fails to grasp what is actually said - Jytdog has listed a number of examples where SageRad cherry-picks/looks at brief abstracts/summaries instead of reading and understanding what material actually says.

But this disruption is not limited to Misplaced Pages, this is just his latest venue for pushing his POV/Agenda. He came here (and was subsequently sanctioned) after getting into conflict with Gorski. He previously linked to his rants/comments offsite - and even a basic internet search shows his attack-dog mentality when criticised (just in case anyone thinks to accuse me of outing, SageRad has previously linked to his offsite comments himself, then deleted them when it was pointed out they showed his bias). If you are unable to actually implement a workable sanction, this will need to go to ANI or Arbcom for a site ban discussion. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:51, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Annnnd we reached the hysterical McCarthy accusations again (this is an ongoing theme, if you take a look at SageRad's talkpage history, specificially their interactions with MjolnirPants). Essentially this illustrates the problem - where multiple people disagree with SageRad, its everyone else that is the problem. Keep in mind, this is multiple editors in multiple topics over an extended period of time (since SageRad came to wikipedia). This is simply a case of 'this person is not suited for wikipedia'. Failure to agree with others is generally fine. People are not required to agree all the time. Failure to agree plus disruption plus personal attacks, plus agenda pushing plus inability to accept consensus is not ok. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:17, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

'cool down blocks' imply there is something to cool down from. Or that SageRad is acting out currently. This is not the case. SageRad's current behaviour is completely normal for him. Both during his entire tenure at Misplaced Pages, and his off-site activities. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:55, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Plea by DrChrissy

I am not here to comment on the merits or otherwise of this case, rather, I am here to make observations on Sage's behaviour and a plea for a moritorium. Sage's most recent behaviour on this noticeboard and at other places is very uncharacteristic for him. He is making unfocussed edits and flailing around in the multiple threads regarding his behaviour. He has even resorted to swearing which I don't think I have ever seen him do before. His baby is a new baby, I think only 6 weeks old or so, and I think is his first. To make this brief, I believe Sage may be experiencing some sort of melt-down. A moritorium would show compassion and allow Sage to either calm down and/or make decisions in a more rational way which Arbcom would be more able to deal with. DrChrissy 17:06, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Robert McClenon

Unfortunately, I see two problems here. The first has to do with the subject editor, User:SageRad, who has been editing aggressively since May 2015 with a strong point of view on medical and agricultural topics. The second has to do with the history between the subject editor and the filing editor, User:Jytdog. Jytdog has long been editing aggressively in accordance with Misplaced Pages policy to try to ensure that medical and scientific articles follow Misplaced Pages medical reliable source guidelines. Jytdog is almost always right with regard to policy, and has made enemies in Misplaced Pages, and SageRad is one of them, and SageRad has been aggressively attacking Jytdog since he began editing Misplaced Pages in May 2015. (SageRad made a few scattered edits before then.) Jytdog is absolutely correct in writing:

Actually, one more thing.  The history between SageRad and me does go back to his very first edits here.

Jytdog is completely correct in writing:

I don't seek SageRad out; he keeps showing up on topics I edit and behaving this way.

I first became familiar with SageRad when he showed up at the dispute resolution noticeboard hounding Jytdog and claiming mistakenly to be a DRN volunteer. SageRad has been going after Jytdog at least since June 2015.

It is impossible to reason with SageRad to advise him that his behavior is disruptive. SageRad has, since May 2015, seen all efforts to advise him to modify his behavior as "McCarthyism" and "bullying". SageRad was topic-banned by the ArbCom from the topic area of genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals. (In case anyone argues that there was a kangaroo court proceeding, he wasn’t just banned by one kangaroo under discretionary sanctions. He was banned by the community-elected panel of kangaroos, except that we are not kangaroos because we are great apes.) He has recently been blocked twice, first for five days, then for one month. It isn’t clear why SageRad is so determined to change Misplaced Pages when he has apparently decided that Misplaced Pages is such an ugly corrupt place, but that is SageRad.

If any editor other than Jytdog had been the one filing this request, I would suggest that SageRad be Site-Banned. As it is, Jytdog is the wrong editor to be filing this request, because Jytdog is right, but it looks too much like (almost justified) revenge. I suggest that SageRad be blocked for another month, and that Jytdog be asked to let other editors deal with SageRad after he is unblocked this time. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:22, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Capeo

I was trying to avoid commenting here because I've butted heads enough with Sage that it just feels like piling on. That said, what the admins here are seeing as a meltdown is actually pretty par for the course. Outbursts claiming McCarthyism (such as here against Guy or here against... everyone I guess) are fairly normal with Sage, though the Stalinism claim is a new one to me. This has been an ongoing issue when it comes to such hyperbolic claims against other users or WP in general. Capeo (talk) 18:49, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Just a further note to admins, it seems unlikely SageRad will accept a voluntary editing restriction after saying they wouldn't accept an enforced one. I highly doubt it will work and will just serve to incite more drama. Perhaps I'm wrong, and SageRad will be fine with it, but I don't think you're going to get the response you're hoping for. Capeo (talk) 20:56, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Because SageRad keeps insisting that folks look at the Misophonia talk page I did. As well as the article, its history, its sources and the current research. The article was a mess earlier in the year with extraordinary levels of advocate editing. To the degree that editors were adding things to the article, openly in edit summaries no less, to favor particular researchers. The majority of editors on the talk page over the last couple years I looked at also say they have Misophonia. It was brought back to some semblance of balance by Jytdog and others back in February. It quickly spiraled back to being a mess in the interceding months. Looking at the current research "a proposed condition" is exactly the proper way to characterize Misophonia according to the preponderance of RS. There is no diagnostic criteria for it. It's not listed in any diagnostic text. It's near invariably associated with other conditions such as OCD (primarily), anxiety disorders, Autism spectrum or Tourette's Syndrome. SageRad's selective use of a sentence from the Cavanna abstract is not engaging with the actual sources or even the abstract in question, or even Cavanna's actual paper. Even in the abstract itself, it's admitted "At the present stage, competing paradigms see misophonia as a physiological state potentially inducible in any subject, an idiopathic condition (which can present with comorbid psychiatric disorders), or a symptomatic manifestation of an underlying psychiatric disorder."

Cavanna and the one study he cites that agrees with him (that aren't his own) is the only person I can find that presently suggests it might be a primary condition. Even then he admits, in regard to the current definition of Misophonia, "This definition challenges the subsequently proposed views that misophonia is a discrete/idiopathic condition (which can present with comorbid psychiatric disorders)8 or a symptomatic manifestation of an underlying psychiatric disorder, at least in a proportion of cases.4 If confirmed by future systematic studies in large populations, the presence of high rates of comorbidity would go against the argument that misophonia should be labeled as a primary diagnosis. In fact, it would suggest that it is a symptom manifestation of other underlying or comorbid diagnoses and should more appropriately be labeled as a symptom, rather than as a stand-alone diagnosis. Either way, the addition of misophonia to nosographic classification systems of psychiatric disorders, such as the DSM, would require careful consideration." 8 is the study I mentioned. 4 is a short paper by Cavanna. Long story short: Jytdog's wording is correct and it appears SageRad is ignoring the caveats the source in question, which he provided, which isn't even close to the totality of sources in question. Capeo (talk) 01:48, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Statement by MjolnirPants

I'm not going to post my usual, fifteen paragraph explanation of every nuance of my own thoughts about this. I'm just going to say two things.

I actually do 'like' SageRad in that I get the impression I could have a few beers with him, work alongside him, or have a friendly relationship with him as my next door neighbor. I would likely befriend him if I knew him IRL.
I absolutely, wholeheartedly, 100% without reservation support a permanent site ban. His views are immutable, and they are utterly incompatible with Misplaced Pages. He constantly expresses angst and frustration at his participation here. This is one of those rare cases where a permanent site ban would (eventually) make everyone happier, including Sage. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 19:26, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Statement by (Roxy the dog)

I'm going to tender for the WP:ROPE supply contract with wikipedia. Must be racing up in value. -Roxy the dog™ bark 08:02, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning SageRad

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I hope I'll have time to return to this request — it requires a daunting amount of reading for someone not already familiar with the relevant discussions — but I have a couple of initial points:

A. I don't see a problem with SageRad's posts on Jimbo's page. They're the kind of thing that page is for. But it's another matter to keep "adding his meta-issue to whatever the local issues are", as Jytdog puts it, to various article talkpages. I agree that is disruptive and time-wasting. To get the flavour, I've read through the Talk:Paleolithic diet/Archive 6, that Jytdog referred to and I see exactly what he means by timesink. (I admit I didn't read quite all of the archive, but a good chunk, maybe half, and it was one of my worst hours on Misplaced Pages.) SageRad's bandying of phrases like "witch hunt" and his assumptions of bad faith of editors like Johnuniq and User:Skyring are just depressing. ("Thanks sir, who I have encountered before in a rather bullying fashion"... "another editor who has used bullying tactics against me in the past... the gang shows up.") The best thing might be a topic ban from going on about meta-issues on article talkpages, as well as the persistent accusations of people "ganging up" on and "bullying" him as soon as they disagree with him. But formulating such a ban properly and usefully is no doubt impossible. I see JzG too has a problem with what a ban might cover.

B. SageRad's comment "Didn't even read the long diatribe by Jytdog" in his response here is really unpromising. SageRad, I have read the "diatribe" carefully and found it full of interesting stuff and food for thought. Well, I would guess you have read it too by now, but for you to start by blowing off your opponent like that looks just like an unfortunate illustration of what JzG said above about a lack of ability to accept that any conclusion differing from your own might be grounded in truth. I hear what you say about real life busyness, but there's always the option of requesting more time to reply.

Oh, and C, just a PS to Jytdog: updating the link just now was fine, but for goodness sake don't otherwise fiddle with your initial statement any more. Fluidity in that makes it much harder for others to evaluate and respond. If you must make new points, please do so below your main signed and dated filing, with a new sig and datestamp. Bishonen | talk 16:20, 24 October 2016 (UTC).

Note: @SageRad: I see you ask above how much time you may have, and saying you don't have time to dedicate to finding diffs and being a lawyer. I suggest you put a request above, at the end of your statement, something on the lines of "I'm busy in real life, can I please have a week (or whatever specific time span would fit your circumstances) to supply a responsive and factual statement?" I'm sure the admins would agree to put this on hold for the time you need. However, if what you mean is that you will never have time to make a reasonable defense, or supply any evidential diffs, then we might as well deal with this as speedily as possible. Please let us know. Bishonen | talk 15:57, 25 October 2016 (UTC).

Continued note: I see @SageRad: says he wants a month. (Please stop adding stuff for a minute, as that's making it rather hard to respond.) Of course that seems a lot. When I wrote my original note, I hadn't seen your latest edits ("This place is damned.. This place is gone..This place is captured by an ideological crew..." etc), which strongly supports Jytdog's complaint. If you stand by that, we may IMO as well siteban you and be done with it. But if what you need is some cooling-off time and then a new statement, it's fine by me. A month of not editing (since you're busy IRL. and will also be busy writing up a statement here) would work for me. What do other people think of a one-month moratorium, please? We could archive this request temporarily and bring it back on 25 November. Bishonen | talk 16:21, 25 October 2016 (UTC).

Comment I'm still reading through the copious amounts of content presented as evidence. I think there is probably a need for some sort of action here, though I'm not quite sure what the best course is yet. As a point of order, however, I would like to note that this board and its administrators do not have the power to issue a topic ban from "health content"; that would be something to be brought up at one of the conventional noticeboards. The most severe topic ban available to us would be "pages relating to Complementary and Alternative Medicine" or some narrower subset of that. The Wordsmith 14:03, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Reading SageRad's latest postings, I think the assessment that he is in some sort of meltdown is essentially correct. Given that he is also dealing with a newborn child, I think compassion ought to reign here. Provided Sage agrees to take some voluntary time off editing, I would have no problem with putting the request on hold for a month or so. If he returns to editing, it can be resumed with cooler heads all around. Getting some sleep and adjusting to his new family situation might help the behavior problem on its own. The Wordsmith 17:46, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

We are empowered to implement any conventional sanction even though it is here at AE, treating it as a non-Arb issue without moving it to another board. OID raises some interesting points, and I have to admit only going through part of the evidence, yet this looks like one form of WP:Tendentious editing, albeit not a textbook example. He seems to be taking a singular position on a general theme (skepticism) and bludgeoning multiple pages and refusing to listen to consensus, to the point that it is disruptive to other editors that are simply trying to build an encyclopedia. It does seem to be a pattern of behavior that extends beyond a single venue, which has gone well beyond spirited debate and to the point that it is hindering the building of the encyclopedia. Again, WP:TE. I would like to read more and will later today, but this is how it is shaping up in my eyes. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:03, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
I'm was about to propose something else, something not as palatable as Bishonen's idea, but would entertain Bish's idea. What I don't want to happen is for SageRad to say he is leaving Misplaced Pages forever, then come back in a month or two and we have the same problem. I would only accept if we continue this in one month, even if it is in absentia. What I would have proposed is a 6 month block and 12 month ban on pseudoscience/medicine (to include skepticism, which is a stretch), to run concurrently. That would allow a long enough period of time as to prevent disruption for 6 months at least, and perhaps past that knowing the next block is indef. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:55, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

If I've learned anything in my decade plus experience here, SageRad, it is that people often say things in the heat of the moment they regret. A sanction doesn't require consent by the sanctioned. My first concern is all the other editors that are affected by your behavior. People leave Misplaced Pages because they get frustrated by people doing things like what you are doing, because they can't edit in a normal fashion and the frustration is too much. That is the purpose of a sanction, not to benefit you, but to benefit them, and by extension, Misplaced Pages. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:18, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
"If you let this happen, you have blood on your hands." Oh dear. If that was a statement made under what we can call extenuating circumstances, it's probably best if this editor stays away from Misplaced Pages for a while. Drmies (talk) 17:51, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Proposal: What I suggested above was that we put this on hold for a month with SageRad voluntarily abstaining from editing during that period, which is apparently The Wordsmith's opinion also. Having watched SR continue to "flail around" (per DrChrissy) makes me a bit dubious about the voluntary part; is he in a state where he can and will comply with a voluntary restriction? A one-month block for recent and ongoing disruption might technically be better. But I don't like to consider it, because people generally take blocks as humiliating. (Not me, I'm proud of mine, but it took me a few years to attain such block zen.) Humiliation is very bad and goes counter to the compassion principle. Therefore, I suggest a one-month moratorium with SageRad taking a wikibreak that has nothing to do with blocks and block logs. (Please briefly indicate if you agree to do that, @SageRad:.) If he edits anywhere in a disruptive way during the moratorium, he will then be blocked, and I advise against editing at all. And we collapse this until 25 November, but it can be re-opened earlier by SR himself, if he feels ready for it. He will be free to remove all his own posts here and start afresh, if desired. And I agree emphatically with Dennis that we must avoid a situation where we close without action, SR leaves, and then returns in a month or two, unsanctioned. We need to protect Misplaced Pages and other users from the bludgeoning that has been going on. The case should be discussed again in a month at the latest, even if in absentia. Is this acceptable to other admins? Bishonen | talk 20:06, 25 October 2016 (UTC).

For the record, that's more or less what I was suggesting. I'm not a fan of WP:COOLDOWN blocks when not absolutely necessary, and I'm not convinced this case warrants it. His conduct needs to be dealt with, but letting cooler heads prevail is a much better path for everyone involved. I endorse this proposal. The Wordsmith 20:34, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. Can't hurt to try as long as we don't forget it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:37, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
OK, thanks, all. Sigh... let's focus on the edit summary and first sentence of SageRad's statement here, that he is actually, now, taking a wikibreak, and put this on hold for a month. I hope he means it, because if there should be further ABF harangues in the coming month, I believe he should be blocked. Closing. Bishonen | talk 08:39, 26 October 2016 (UTC).

My very best wishes

No action taken. EdJohnston (talk) 18:28, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning My very best wishes

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: DrFleischman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:39, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: My very best wishes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBAPDS :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

06:54, 17 October 2016 The first time My very best wishes re-inserted highly contentious material to Donald Trump without consensus during the pendancy of an RfC. Instead of posting something on the talk page, My very best wishes described the perfectly reasonable RfC as "ridiculous" and accused the requestor, EvergreenFir, of using it to stonewall. The irony here is that the one stonewalling was My very best wishes, not EvergreenFir.
21:27, 19 October 2016 The second time My very best wishes re-inserted highly contentious material to Donald Trump without consensus during the pendancy of the RfC.
09:54, 26 October 2016 The third time My very best wishes re-inserted highly contentious material to Donald Trump without consensus during the pendancy of the RfC. In the edit summary they acknowledged the existence of the RfC. My very best wishes ignored repeated talk page comments that the content should be excluded during the pendancy of the RfC. A pretty clear violation of WP:TALKDONTREVERT.
12:19, 26 October 2016 Playing dumb and failing to acknowledge RfC, after AE warning.
12:40, 26 October 2016 Refusal to self-revert, and failure to acknowledge that their re-insertions violated our WP:NOCONSENSUS policy.
19:58, 27 October 2016 My very best wishes continues to edit war over this material, now re-deleting an {{undue-inline}} tag that flagged the existence of the RfC. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 07:36, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

17:35, 20 October 2016 (one of many).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

(My apologies if I've messed something up, as this is my first time lodging an AE complaint.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:39, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

My very best wishes, the arbitration warning states:

“

Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). If in doubt, don't make the edit.

”

This is what you did, three times. Your primary justification appears to be that you were following some sort of custom to preserve the material being discussed in an RfC. This custom does not "trump" (pardon the pun) active arbitration remedies, especially when you are re-inserting allegations of sexual misconduct in a BLP. I'll also note that WP:RFC states:

“

Edits to content under RfC discussion may be particularly controversial. Avoid making edits that others may view as unhelpful. Editing after others have raised objections may be viewed as disruptive editing or edit warring. Be patient; make your improvements in accord with consensus after the RFC is resolved.

”

--Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:14, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

My very best wishes, thank you for pointing out that I did accidentally and technically violate 1RR just now (after filing this complaint) by restoring a dispute tag while the relevant dispute was ongoing. I acknowledge my mistake and have self-reverted--something you have refused to do. As for your suggestion that the RfC be closed, I agree that would help toward resolving the content dispute, but not toward resolving this conduct dispute. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:38, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

I have identified at least 3 verifiable falsehoods in Tataral's statement, but they really bear on the matters not pertinent to this complaint, which is about My very best wishes's conduct, not about my conduct or the content dispute. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Drmies, Lankiveil, and Guy, I think some of you (at least Drmies) have misunderstood this complaint. I'm not screaming BLP violation, I'm saying that Mvbw clearly and flagrantly violated the arbitration remedy that provides: "Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)." Mvbw and I have a disagreement about content, which is being hashed out on the talk page. The difference between my behavior and theirs is that I have used only the talk page and tagging to "stick to my guns" whereas they have repeatedly re-reverted the same content without consensus, in violation of active arbitration remedies, to stick to theirs. One is the right way to edit DS articles and the other is not. I'm puzzled that you're so quick to excuse such behavior on one of the most visible and contentious articles in the encyclopedia - one that was basically what DS was designed to manage. Drmies, I'm also surprised at your uncharacteristically un-AGF comment. If you look at the entirety of my contributions to Donald Trump you'll see that I've taken all sides, sometimes with Mvbw and sometimes against, and I have nothing against them beyond that they have behaved disruptively in this particular dispute and have set a very poor example for less experienced editors. I have to be honest, this smacks of favoritism toward the long-timers, even if unintended. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:54, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Drmies, I must say I'm completely baffled by your latest response, and I think you continue to misunderstand me. I absolutely disagree with those who say that insertion of the rape content is immediately blockable, and I'm blinkered as to how you can tag me with poor arguments made by others. Moreover, your suggestion that Mvbw "did something I think is wrong and didn't repeat it" is verifiably false. Mvbw restored content without consensus three times--in clear violation of AE remedies, no?--while there was ongoing talk page discussion. The third time I had specifically called out this behavior and asked editors like Mvbw to stop restoring the content without consensus. So what does Mvbw do? They ignored the discussion and restored the content anyway. (1) How is this good behavior? (2) How is this in compliance with AE remedies--and if it's not, are you really ready to signal that enforcement of AE remedies is discretionary? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:31, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Drmies, say what? You continue to misread. The RfC was set up by EvergreenFir, not by me, and the comments you're quoting aren't part of it. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:19, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Drmies, I hope I can answer your questions by saying: (1) Yes, I hope everyone will stop fighting over that content, not just Mvbw; (2) Here is the reason I chose to bring this complaint against Mvbw; and (3) My dream remedy would be an uninvolved admin posting a big, bold notice on the talk page saying something like, "Everyone, knock it off and leave this material out of the lead section pending formal closure of the RfC or other consensus to restore this material, per policy. Violators will be tbanned until after the election." I don't know if you guys have authority to do that, but it would solve a lot of problems all at once. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:00, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Schmarnnintelligenz, you are deliberately misrepresenting my motives. In the very same comment that you linked to, I explain that the reason for this complaint is to discourage bad behavior (edit warring, reverting with out discussing) by Mvbw and others. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:40, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

13:42, 26 October 2016

Discussion concerning My very best wishes

Statement by My very best wishes

In the first diff of complaint I refer (edit summary) to this unhelpful RfC request closed by an administrator. I obviously did not mean user EvergreenFir in this edit summary. I meant other users.

An administrator who closed this request also opened another RfC that was a lot more helpful. Here is version of the page which existed at the moment of posting this RfC by admin. The content under discussion in the RfC was the last paragraph in the introduction. Strictly speaking, this paragraph should not be modified during standing RfC until it is closed. However, I do agree that the initial version of this paragraph was POVish, and it evolved to another, more neutral version, one that I have restored here (3rd diff in complaint).

I think this latest version is fine and should remain, possibly in this, even more neutral version. However, if the RfC will be properly closed with conclusion to remove, I am very much willing to agree with consensus. But the RfC is still open, and there is no consensus to remove this material from intro. I fully explained my edits here and here. Nevertheless, the filer decided to go ahead with this complaint. Why? If am wrong here, please explain, and I will try to improve. Note that I discussed this subject on article talk page.

As a note of order, the US politics is not an area of my major interest, and I did not receive a formal warning about discretionary sanctions in this area, although I know about these sanctions. My very best wishes (talk) 22:48, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

A constructive suggestion. Could an uninvolved admin look at this RfC and close it please, one way or another. End of story. My very best wishes (talk) 01:18, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
P.S. Note that DrFleischman just threatened to report yet another user on WP:AE and ... violated 1RR rule on this page , (note that both his edits are restoration of "content challenged by reversion" he complains about here). DrFleischman is well aware of the 1RR restriction on this page, but refused to comply . Note that I made only three edits on this page during a week. My very best wishes (talk) 10:46, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

DrFleschman now self-reverted, but asked other users (edit summary) to continue edit warring on his behalf. I tried to explain him that he acted inappropriately, but without any success. My very best wishes (talk) 18:35, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

@James J. Lambden. After reading comments on the RfC, it appears that most people agree with this edit by Awilley. His text is similar to that in my last edit on this page. I think this text actually reflects consensus on the page. My very best wishes (talk) 16:14, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

@James J. Lambden.

No, this is wrong count by you. Most people on the RfC agreed that at least one phrase should be included in intro.
Even if I made mistakes, I corrected them later - see my last diff which places essentially same content as was previously placed by admin based on his reading of comments on very same RfC;
I think some participants around here are gaming the rules by removing everything they do not like to claim "hey, you can not place this back as something I challenged by reversion",
I think my editing of BLP pages is generally fine (I had no a single warning for this);
This is all beyond the point because I am not going back into this mess per suggestion by Lankeveil. My very best wishes (talk) 01:18, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

@EtienneDolet and James J. Lambden. Yes, I have some interest in US politics, but this is not an area of my main interest. Why do you see it as a problem? My very best wishes (talk) 01:39, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

@Lankeveil. I agree to leave this topic area voluntarily for a couple of weeks, no problem. My very best wishes (talk) 14:34, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

@EtienneDoliet. In the comment you quoted I refer to this RfC. Yes, this RfC is ridiculous because it asks about the number of words in a phrase. That's why an admin posted another RfC instead. As about child rape accusations, I saw them in this section of a WP article and they seemed well sourced to me. I do not insist these accusations should be placed back. This is something to be decided by WP:Consensus. My very best wishes (talk) 05:11, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I am not sure why three contributors below (EtienneDolet, Athenean and Tiptoethrutheminefield) blame me of "Putinophobia", and not for the first time. This AE request has nothing to do with that subject. I do not even edit page about him for a long time. EtienneDolet does. My very best wishes (talk) 02:55, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

@ED. No, I do not edit disruptively: I do not think any of my edits during last 3 weeks caused anyone's objections. Yes, you made this AE comment, and I preferred to respond on your talk page rather than here. Was that disruptive? No, I simply tried to mend some fences and make a friendly social conversation with you in response to your repeated accusations on various administrative noticeboards. No, I did not really talk about people, but about elections. There is nothing fringe here. This is all discussed in mainstream media. As about the role of German Communist Party in historical elections in Germany, this is simply a textbook example. I could give you some refs if you were interested in. But if you are not interested in history, that's fine. Why bring it here? My very best wishes (talk) 11:29, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Tataral

If I'm not mistaken, User:DrFleischman has made at least 3 reverts during the last 24 hours in violation of 1RR. It is somewhat amusing that this user, DrFleischman, who is engaging in revert warring and battleground behaviour to such an extent, threatens to file frivolous reports over the same issue against one editor after another (who unlike him haven't edit warred and who have made only one edit during a whole week reinstating the stable and consensus-supported version) when he doesn't get it his way. When someone claims everyone else is wrong, it's usually the other way round.

When reading the talk page in its entirety, after 2 weeks of discussion, it is clear based on policy-based arguments that there is consensus to include a brief mention of the controversy, in the form of the wording that has been stable for quite some time now. Numerous editors have presented sound policy-based arguments (summed up nicely by JasperTECH under the heading "My comment copied from below") in favour of its inclusion, at least in the form of a brief mention (as is currently the case), but on the other hand there is a case to be made that consensus is against including a whole paragraph on it, as was originally the case. The current two-sentence wording is much shorter than the original paragraph, and also a lot more neutral, and is really a compromise and the result of painstaking work by many editors to find an acceptable, neutral and WP:DUE wording that complies with the BLP policy to the maximum extent possible. If User:DrFleischman disagrees with it, he should seek consensus on the talk page instead of revert-warring or trying to bully other editors. --Tataral (talk) 11:49, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Statement by James J. Lambden

Nowhere in My very best wishes's response do I see a link to any discussion showing consensus to include the text he restored. Did I miss it?

His comment above is also dubious:

"As a note of order, the US politics is not an area of my major interest"

He made a similar comment a few days ago on the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign, 2016 talk page:

"I usually do not edit US politics and have more or less fresh eyes here"

Yet, examining his recent contributions I see he's involved in the following articles:

Now I'm just a simple caveman but the Hillary Rodham cattle futures controversy seems like a relatively obscure topic for someone not very interested in American politics.

It will be interesting to compare editors' responses in this request to their responses in Anythingyouwant's request above, since they involve the same bit of text in the same article. James J. Lambden (talk) 15:14, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: You say: "I think this text actually reflects consensus on the page." Let's see:

On Oct 17 the RFC asking whether the existing coverage ("Allegations of sexual misconduct against Trump were widely reported in the weeks before the election.") was sufficient stood at:

Yes: 5
No: 5 (one of those saying it should only be expanded to include Trump's counterclaims)
Maybe/Comment: 3

You expanded it to a paragraph shortly after, including a poorly-sourced claim of "child rape" (diff #1)

On Oct 20 the RFC asking whether the allegations should be included in the lede and to what extent stood at:

Yes/short or one sentence: 2
Yes/more than short or one sentence: 9
No: 11

Based on that you restored a full paragraph (diff #2)

On Oct 26 the same RFC stood at:

Yes/short or one sentence: 4
Yes/more than short or one sentence: 13
No: 13

Based on that you restored a 3-sentence description (diff #3)

Comments addressing potential BLP violations are I believe misguided - the relevant policy (as DrFleischman specifies in his complaint) is WP:ARBAPDS:

All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). If in doubt, don't make the edit.

In each of these instances consensus was not just absent but against the multiple-sentence description restored by My very best wishes.

My own opinion (as far as BLP) is that a single restoration of a poorly-sourced child rape claim, against consensus, in a highly visible BLP and an area covered by discretionary sanctions is grounds for a permanent ban from BLPs. James J. Lambden (talk) 18:09, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Schmarnnintelligenz

I came here feeling invited via a link posted by DrFleischmann to Talk:Donald Trump#Addition of sexual misconduct content to lead section while RfC is ongoing, take 2 and am really astonished reading this (not all tl;dr;) and just wanted to leave this comment: While working on some of the current politics articles I saw the name DrFleischman really often - and often reverting other users. Then suddenly he placed a warning on my usertalk although I had strictly followed the 1RR rule prominently displayed on the Trump article, so I looked a bit more what he was doing and to me several edits look like breaching the 1RR or "avoiding" it by using just other words. Also in my eyes DrFleischman is very skillful on talkpages interpreting disagreements towards the solutions he wants to achieve, often by accusing fellow contributors of not adhering to the guidelines, also often by positive, constructive language. In the Difflinks provided I don't see acting against the rules, just editing with similar means like DrFleischman. Perhaps both could agree to both adhere more to our giudelines and look more friendly for consensus while accepting that consensus is not always "what I want" and that consensus is fluent and not only the "powerusers" here have valid arguments. My suggestion would be: Close this here and Keep calm and focus on content, folks :-) --S I 17:38, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

As I see that this is still an open case, I ask the admins to have a look at User talk:DrFleischman#AE question, especially this edit: "Tell you what, if you can somehow, miraculously convince everyone editing the article to stop edit warring and to leave sexual misconduct out of the lead section until the RfC is resolved, then I'll withdraw my complaint.". I'm really shocked. So this case here is deliberately used to force content out of an WP article by trying to force one user to grant a consensus with many others? Do I undestand that langauge correct? --S I 14:34, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by EtienneDolet

@Lankiveil: and @JzG: and to all the other admins involved in this case. There's a lot of misleading claims here that My very best wishes regularly employs in order to excuse himself when the going gets tough. Just two months ago, in this case, Mvbw was quick to say that he was actually interested in American politics to excuse himself from tag-team edit-warring charges piled against him. Here is exactly what Mvbw said at the tag-teaming accusations against him:

If it helps, I promise never look at the editing history of VM in the future, even though this is not forbidden by policy. That however, does not guarantee that I will not appear on the same pages as him, because we have a significant overlap of interest, including US politics.

To clarify matters further, he also said the following in response to Softlavender's concerns that the tag-team edit-warring was spreading to different topic areas:

@Softlavender. Even if I was not interested in these subjects (yes, they are actually interesting to me), but only wanted to improve content as a generally disinterested contributor, that still would be OK.

And indeed, there's this stark comment here:

It was only very recently that the ongoing presidential campaign in US brought my attention. This is something highly unusual and therefore interesting to me.

So it's one form of the truth when he's under fire with one accusation, but it's another form of truth under another. Apparently, it's an all too familiar pattern of playing dumb when it comes to not only editing at mainspace (as exemplified by DrFleischman), but even as he defends himself as well. All in all, it's quite deceptive towards admins that haven't known this user's history and apparent pattern of disingenuous handling of his affairs. As for Mvbw's editing pattern, I'm surprised this user is not banned for this edit alone. As I am also surprised that he wasn't banned for this. I mean, there's a pretty strong pattern here of treating the articles of people he doesn't like with a sly attempt to destroy them, either by undermining the consensus building process to make them better, or to directly add material that would undermine the article altogether. I suggest the admins look beyond this report and seriously consider the long pattern of problematic behavior this user has be accused of doing. It's the only way of truly grasping the extent of the concerning behavior this user has caused in the project. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:28, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Drmies, see the edit-summary of that edit. You see the part that says "RfC is ridiculous and used for stonewalling"? Well, that's not the same as making a wrong edit that's "not maintained by consensus". Indeed, that would make it sound okay. As in, much more blameless than it should be. You know, as if it were some accident or something. But this was a highly contentious edit in the most visible BLP article in Misplaced Pages (and of a guy that's known to sue, might I add). To top it all off, Mvbw makes a mockery of this project's consensus building procedures (calling it: "This is probably the most ridiculous RfC I have seen in the project") and has the effrontery to dismiss those who participate in them as nothing but "stonewallers". And he does this not once, not twice, but three times, which in itself makes a mockery of the RfC. So it's not just a wrong edit, it's a disruptive POV pushing pattern. He has openly taken a side on the issue and pushed his POV even while good faith editors were in the process of building a consensus. The pattern is there. The disruption is there. All the fundamental signs that would usually lead to a topic ban are there. What else is missing? I've seen users get indeffed for doing much much less. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:40, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

That should not give you the right to delete material you don't like only hours before you made that remark. Étienne Dolet (talk) 05:56, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Could admins here make in any less obvious that they are waiting until after the elections to resolve this case? Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:52, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

@DrFleischman: Honestly, I don't think this report matters anymore. Mvbw (or VM for that matter) received something worse than a topic ban: a Trump presidency. It was a nice try on their behalf though. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:32, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

So here we have Mvbw saying that he would rather have a topic ban, or a site ban, than a Trump presidency. In a follow up remark, we also have him hypothesizing some pretty bizarre conspiracies: mainly that Hitler was brought up by the Russians, and that Trump's rise (with Russia's help) is no different. Yet, this is nothing new. He often invokes Hitler when talking about world leaders he doesn't like. He pulled off the same stunt at Vladimir Putin several times (). So now that we know what his personal POV is, and now that we have diffs of him pushing his POV all over the topic area in a disruptive manner, do we still think this user is neutral enough to edit this topic area? Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:11, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Mvbw now sneakily removes a previous comment he made on this very thread that points to an op-ed entitled: "America Elects a Bigot". Better yet, Mvbw references this article and says "I do not think this subject area will be quiet after electing such president. Did anyone else catch that? I narrowly missed it myself. But I'll say it once, and I'll say it again, Mvbw is not shy about his opinions when it comes to Donald Trump. We all know that that's not a problem in and of itself. But when he is editing to that effect, that would mean there's some serious POV pushing going on, and he should therefore be restricted from making edits to this topic area altogether. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:18, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Athenean

I'm frankly amazed My very best wishes hasn't been topic banned from US politics articles already. At Donald Trump in particular, all he does is edit war . The rape diff alone is especially disturbing and grounds for a ban just by itself. He is edit-warring to reinstate extremely defamatory, poorly sourced material to the lede of a high visibility BLP article. for crying out loud. Can anyone think of something worse? Because I can't. Drmies' special pleading that it was a "setup" is baffling. Users are fully responsible for their edits, and Mvbw is a veteran contributor. Especially in hot articles like Donald Trump, all users should be extra careful with their edits. The conspiratorial suggestion that he was somehow "set up" is simply mind boggling.

As someone else has pointed out, for someone who disingenuously claims to "not be interested in American politics articles", he sure edit wars a lot . In fact that's pretty much all he does in this topic. Content building is virtually zilch. Talk pages are mainly used for obfuscation and deception instead of trying to resolve disagreements in good faith. For example here is demanding users not edit the article until the RfC is closed (but he himself has no problem re-adding controversial material on Donald Trump even though an RfC on the material is ongoing), deliberately misconstruing RfC results (), wikilawyering about when 1RR applies , the list goes on.

Which brings us to what is arguably the most disruptive aspect of Mvbw's editing: the active use of deception. Mvbw frequently plays dumb (e.g. pretending not to notice an RfC is ongoing) even though he knows full well what is going on. Rules and guidelines are selectively misquoted and manipulated as desired. This shows great contempt for the wikipedia community and its processes. In one edit summary he will say an Rfc is "ridiculous" and use that as an excuse to revert , in the next edit summary he uses the fact that the RfC is ongoing as an excuse to revert again (but this time he validates the RfC) . This user just makes a mockery of the entire wikipedia community process at every turn. This is a game to him.

Finally, I would also like to disabuse everyone here of the naive notion that Mvbw's disruption in this topic area will magically cease after Nov. 8. As anyone who is familiar with him knows, Mvbw's raison d'etre on wikipedia is a deep and abiding Putinophobia. This is why he edit wars to remove any material that reflects negatively on Clinton and her people using absurd, mocking edit summaries ("not every cold deserves mention", "petty details", "RfC not closed", etc...) and edit wars to reinstate any material that reflects negatively on Trump (the more defamatory the better). Reliable sources and wikipedia process mean nothing; it's all about the mission. Regardless of who wins, I can guarantee the chance of Mvbw abandoning these articles after election day is zilch.

Considering the lack of positive contribs, and the disruption wrought, I can't think of a single reason why this topic area benefits from Mvbw's presence. Athenean (talk) 00:40, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

@Drmies: So the fact he re-instated the child-rape only once makes it ok? I find it impossible to believe that Mvbw didn't do this knowingly and intentionally. Then we also have this , which while not quite as bad as child rape, is quite close. Then there's this little gem here with the whole guilt-by-association gimmick with Mike Tyson . Doesn't quite accuse Trump of rape, but comes quite close. This is deep, deep in WP:TEND and WP:BLPVIO territory. I'm just curious, what would this user have to do to get banned from this topic area? Because if the above behavior is not enough, I don't know what is. Athenean (talk) 06:53, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Tiptoethrutheminefield

I wholeheartedly agree with Athenean's "anyone who is familiar with him knows, Mvbw's raison d'etre on wikipedia is a deep and abiding Putinophobia" description of the editing aims of My very best wishes. Regarding the Mike Tyson gimmick Athenean mentioned. I also tried to remove that content , only to see it immediately returned by My very best wishes . As explained here , this off-topic content about Mike Tyson's 1992 rape conviction was being added and then editorialized into being linked to his 2016 endorsement of Trump in order to blatantly imply guilt by association. That Mvbw has continue to edit war in this obviously invalid content is telling, but I think even more telling is the silent agreement of many editors to allow it and similar disgraceful content to remain and allow Mvbw to be the attack dog in reversing any attempts at deletion. This is not just "sticking to one's guns", to use Drmies' wording - it is a constant and pov consistent obstruction to the removal of content that clearly breaks numerous Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines on content, language usage, editorializing, and BLP issues. These policies and guidelines take precedence over article-specific sanctions, so Drmies' hand washing "there was some kind of consensus over it" shows a failing in the judgment and guidance that are expected from an administrator. It also displays some flippancy - can Drmies actually point to the talk page discussion that decided on the consensus for the Tyson content he claims exists? There was none - the "consensus" that has allowed that content to remain is nothing more than a "the party that edit wars the longest wins" - this is not how consensus should be determined, and article-specific (even if article-specific ARBAPDS sanction supported) consensus anyway cannot decide to ignore site-wide policies and guidelines. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:59, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

My very best wishes, re your question, by "attack dog" I didn't mean this is what you have been doing, but that I think there are editors who look on you as having that purpose for them: they would like, for pov reasons, to retain for example the Tyson editorialized content, but chose not to defend the material on talk (since it is ultimately un defendable). Instead they are letting you do it through your reverts, knowing that if you are blocked it does not affect them - you are a recent arrival to that article and are editing there for different reasons. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:33, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by JFG

My very best wishes is clearly an experienced editor who knows very well how to walk a fine line on the edge of the rules, and quickly retract when caught. I wouldn't go so far as to call him "on a mission" but I concur with Athenean and Tiptoethrutheminefield about his general editing style and behaviour, which tends to discourage editors who are not as strong-willed or as passionate. Unfortunately, neutral and consensus-minded editors can get tired of fighting such people and refrain from further attempts to improve articles on sensitive topics — precisely driving away the kind of contributors we need at Misplaced Pages: that is the key issue to me in this case. This particular violation doesn't look like a big deal, but it is part of a tendentious pattern coupled with sometimes derogatory or lawyeresque comments. In that spirit, I would find it unfair that MBVW escape with a mere slap of the trout when just a few days ago the same kind of minor violation (although from an editor who has generally proved to be more amenable to consensus discussions) was sanctioned with a TBAN for Anythingyouwant considering his overall pattern of behaviour. Therefore I advocate the exact same "Vanamonde-standard" sanction for MBVW, with an encouragement to be less combative in his future contributions. — JFG 20:41, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Result concerning My very best wishes

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

It is hard to escape the suggestion that this is a setup, and some commentators confirm that. The worst in all this is the inclusion of the "rape" phrase--but that's only in the very first diff. Another editor (Steeletrap, if I remember correctly) used that word on another Trump-related article (can't find which one right now) and I warned them not to do that again--perhaps My very best etc. saw that warning. Moreover, that content was there before the RfC started, so whether removal or reinsertion is the disruptive bit remains to be seen--in other words, what the B is in BRD, for instance. And so what we have is three reinsertions over the course of a week, the first one of which with what I consider a serious BLP violation, but the second ones without that mistake. Now, when exactly which RfC was started and when what content was in, that's less interesting than other matters here: there is no BLP exception (except for in the first, already mentioned and not repeated edit), and the content itself is better documented than the recent effort to land something on Mars. Now, someone inserts that rape shit again, me and a bunch of others will be happy to block on the spot. You want a sentence instead of three sentences on this content, that's fine--but you wait until the RfC is closed before you go to AE, because--again--while one may argue it is undue, it is very hard to see it as a BLP violation. So, this AE request certainly proves that My very best sticks to their guns, as does Dr. Fleischman--good for both of you. It also proves that every single case here has the potential of becoming a lithmus test, which is why James Lambden should really withdraw from this subject matter, since they seem to be incapable of treating any Trump-related conflict as just an editorial conflict, not as some matter of life and death. Drmies (talk) 01:53, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
- Dr. Fleischman, I am surprised to see you read so much, or misread, my "stick to guns" phrase. Seriously. I have little more to add, except that I just saw yet another editor saying that the rape thing ought to be immediately blockable. It's not. It's not a crazy edit (read the sources, there are some)--just a wrong one which was not maintained by consensus. One of the things that needs to happen here is that if someone does something you think is wrong and doesn't repeat it, that you be happy and maybe congratulate the other editor. Drmies (talk) 03:15, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
- Etienne Dolet, Athenean, et al., "inserted" or "reinserted"? As far as I can tell the editor only inserted it once. Yes, that's not great while an RfC is going on but it's better than twice. Now, that "sexual advances towards" --> "sexually assaulting" edit, claiming that that's somehow almost as bad as accusing someone of child rape is prima facie ridiculous, and such commentary invalidates the point--never mind that "You can do anything. ... Grab them by the p---. You can do anything" is well verified, and is read widely as describing sexual assault. Grabbing someone by the qeuynte is indeed a "sexual advance" in one literary text, but that one is a fabliau and hardly a reliable source for dating advice. And if the Mike Tyson reference is guilt by association, then you have a bigger problem since apparently it's in the article right now, which I assume means there was some kind of consensus over it. Besides, what the editor did was modify something that was already there, so I don't see how that is POV or disruptive or whatever. No, I do not believe I have seen editors indeffed for less. That kind of exaggeration is typical, maybe, for this topic area, and I hear it on TV as well, but in an arbitration forum it is counterproductive. Drmies (talk) 15:59, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
- Dr. Fleischman, I don't quite follow. The three diffs do not make the same edit. The first contained the rape allegation. That's contentious, I agree, but they didn't repeat it. The second is hardly as controversial as you may claim, and is more a tweak than anything else--as long as we're talking about the lead, and not about Tyson (which is not, as far as I can tell, the subject of talk discussion). One can easily argue that it's an improvement since it turns a specific point about the campaign (already there in the lead--the groping bit) into a general point about the subject, which in this article is (more) appropriate. The edit appears factual and well verified, or at least easily verifiable; I don't see how one could call that change a BLP violation or something like that--just compare Anythingyouwant's version to My very best wishes's. The third actually restores content that was already there in Anythingyouwant's version just before My very best wishes "second" diff--so you're faulting Mvbw for basically making the same edit that Anythingyouwant made when the latter moved that same material to another spot in the lead. And I assume that if Mvbw did that while an RfC was ongoing, then Anything also did it while an RfC was ongoing.
  Plus, I don't want to nitpick, but that RfC is not much of an RfC. I'm not big on formalizing anything, but it seems like a discussion over a few phrases more than a well-formed, clear RfC. The question, as Lankiveil says below, is reasonable, but it's hardly a clear-cut question to be answered with an unambiguous mandate to include or exclude some specific content or organize it in some specific way. I mean, the opening section ends with "Or just listen to the tape yourself." I wouldn't call this RfC ridiculous, but to have that ongoing discussion being used to get someone banned is pushing it too far. If you want RfC's to be binding, set them up better. The second part, for instance, is this: "Saying Trump "appeared to" brag is non-neutral. He bragged, and sources such as the Washington Post article verify this." OK, that's a statement by an editor (you), and editors can discuss. But that's not much of an RfC. If you want to nail an editor for reinserting "appeared to brag" after you said on the talk page you didn't like the phrase, that's your prerogative, of course, but I can't see how this is some grave violation (or any violation at all) which needs an arbitrated slap on the wrist. Drmies (talk) 17:09, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
- Dr. Fleischman, I stand corrected: I was citing from Talk:Donald_Trump#Language_in_lead_section_about_sexual_misconduct. But I deny that I continue to misread, and my point about Mvbw's edits compared to those of others stand. As for the RfC, well, no conclusion is ever going to be reached on it--and I would like to ask you, since the RfC is technically still ongoing, whether you will also file charges against the editors who have (re-?)inserted the groping content which is currently in the article. Doesn't that very fact suggest the RfC is either impossible or already outdated? Isn't your time better spent dealing with that little tag and rather outlandish claims such as "serious BLP issues"? Drmies (talk) 17:44, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
I might be sympathetic to the comments about the RFC being "used for stonewalling" if it were ridiculous and heading for the snowball clause, but I see a perfectly reasonable question with no clear consensus either way. The user should not have re-inserted this material while the discussion was under way. I'm not sure this rises to a level where sanctions need to be considered (assuming the problematic edits are not repeated), but it might be best if MVBW were to leave this topic area voluntarily for a couple of weeks, which I assume will not be a problem given that it is "not an area of ... major interest". As for the 1RR breach by User:DrFleischman; it is there but given that the user has voluntarily self-reverted I don't see anything to be gained by throwing the book at them. Lankiveil 09:09, 29 October 2016 (UTC).
Meh. The election is weeks away and the candidates both highly divisive, anyone expecting calm and measured editing is delusional. Long-time Wikipedians would be best off showing everyone else a bit of class and following WP:BRD with emphasis on the D, but this specific case is in the end a content matter where reasonable people may differ. Perhaps a slap with the WP:TROUT and move on. Guy (Help!) 23:22, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Close this? None of the three admins who commented are proposing a sanction, though JzG wants a slap with the trout. The practical effect of closing this with no action might be that User:My very best wishes returns to editing at Donald Trump, where he has not participated since 28 October. Since I don't see a major downside to that, and no admin wants a block or a ban, I suggest closing this with no action. EdJohnston (talk) 18:33, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

For better or worse, this report is deeply stale at this point and probably needs to be closed on that basis alone. Of course all the discretionary sanctions on the affected pages remain in force. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:31, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Afterwriting

Warned for edit warring on the lead of Chiropractic. If this continues, an AE block is likely. EdJohnston (talk) 16:11, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Request concerning Afterwriting User who is submitting this request for enforcement RexxS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:41, 8 November 2016 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Afterwriting (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary sanctions Specifically: Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all ~~articles~~ pages relating to pseudoscience and fringe science, broadly interpreted. Any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in this topic area, after an initial warning. Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 30 October 2016 Reverts CFCF, removing "pseudoscience" from opening sentence. 8 November 2016, 16:28 Removes "pseudoscience" from opening sentence again. 8 November 2016, 16:43 Edit wars to once again remove "pseudoscience" from opening sentence. Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any 3 October 2015 Blocked for edit-warring 24 June 2010 Blocked for edit-warring If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts) Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, also see the system log linked to above. Additional comments by editor filing complaint The Chiropractic article is covered by discretionary sanctions in the field of pseudoscience. The alert can be found at the top of the talk page Talk:Chiropractic, linking to WP:ARBPS. The Chiropractic article is currently under a concerted attack to remove the appellation "pseudoscience" from the opening sentence, which reads "Chiropractic is a form of pseudoscience and alternative medicine... ". Afterwriting is now edit-warring to force the removal of the term. There is no doubt that the underlying theory that chiropractic bases itself on, "vertebral subluxations" is considered pseudoscience by mainstream scientific opinion: , , , and our Arbitration Committee has previously endorsed discretionary sanctions against editors on the chiropractic article - Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience #2009. Afterwriting has a history of attempting to force his preferred version by editwarring (see previous blocks and his present talk page), and is now doing this again in an attempt to whitewash Chiropractic contrary to mainstream scientific and medical opinion. I request that Afterwriting be topic-banned from chiropractic and related pages to prevent further disruption and edit-warring. --RexxS (talk) 17:41, 8 November 2016 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested Notification of this request Discussion concerning Afterwriting Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by Afterwriting I am very pleased that common sense has prevailed in this matter. This report had no substantial merit to it to begin with and, frankly, I had no need to defend myself against such erroneous accusations. It was an exercise in not letting the facts get in the way of a good story. As can can readily be checked, at no point in any of this "edit war" did I ever argue that mention of "pseudoscience" should not appear in the introduction or elsewhere in the article. In fact I agree that it should appear in an appropriate place and in an appropriate way. All I did was revert the addition of the term as the first description in the article, even though it already appeared elsewhere in the lead. The term was added to the opening sentence without seeking any consensus to do so and was then reverted which was entirely justifiable in terms of a number of editing policies. The editor responsible for constantly and aggressively adding this term as the first description in this and other alternative medicine articles is the one who bears principal responsible for creating any edit wars with myself and other editors. Afterwriting (talk) 06:13, 18 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by LeadSongDog There appears to be a troubling pattern here, edit warring with CFCF on multiple altmed articles and engaging in personal attacks: (Full disclosure: I often edit altmed pages and support WP's "bias" towards basing statements on the best-quality evidence available.)LeadSongDog come howl! 19:32, 8 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by WhatamIdoing It looks like CFCF WP:BOLDly added the word pseudoscience to the first/definition sentence of Chiropractic (so that it read "Chiropractic is a form of pseudoscience and alternative medicine...") about three weeks ago. That particular instance of the word pseudoscience has been removed or moved to a different paragraph in the lead by multiple editors several times in the intervening weeks (and also re-added repeatedly by CFCF and other proponents). There is now an active discussion on the talk page about whether or not pseudoscience should be the sixth word in the article, although it may be generating more heat than light. At the moment, the terms pseudoscience and pseudomedicine appear three times in the lead and three more times in the body of the article, but (since CFCF self-reverted earlier today) it is not currently in the first sentence itself. In terms of this AE request, I would not fault Afterwriting for removing a heavily disupted word multiple times than I would fault CFCF for re-adding it multiple times – or any of the other editors who have edited that part of the article recently. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:08, 8 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by (username) Result concerning Afterwriting This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. It's reasonable to see a general Misplaced Pages consensus that Chiropractic should be classified under pseudoscience. But attempts to stuff 'pseudoscience' into the opening sentence of the lead might appear to be provocative and likely to result in future edit wars. Even without User:CFCF's addition of pseudoscience to the opening sentence, we still have pseudoscience mentioned at the end of the first paragraph. We should expect some level of ongoing editing of the lead, but people who want to fine-tune the placement of 'pseudoscience' in the opening paragraph would normally be expected to defer to talk-page consensus. So to sanction Afterwriting for his edits and say nothing about people on the other side could appear unbalanced. (They didn't wait for a talk page consensus either). Unless there is a suggestion to apply page-level sanctions (e.g. putting a general 1RR on Chiropractic) I'd favor closing this request with no action. EdJohnston (talk) 01:57, 13 November 2016 (UTC) Yeah I agree with EdJohnston. I do think that Afterwriting is guilty of edit warring, at least in spirit, and should not have reverted RexxS--for now, let's wait and see what the talk page discussion delivers, and let this be a stern reminder to Afterwriting that they need to tread much, much more carefully. Their second revert on 8 November was, as far as I'm concerned, blockable. Drmies (talk) 19:12, 16 November 2016 (UTC) Closing. User:Afterwriting is warned for edit warring on the lead of Chiropractic. If this continues, an AE block is likely. EdJohnston (talk) 16:09, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Warned for edit warring on the lead of Chiropractic. If this continues, an AE block is likely. EdJohnston (talk) 16:11, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Afterwriting

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: RexxS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:41, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Afterwriting (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary sanctions; Specifically: Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all ~~articles~~ pages relating to pseudoscience and fringe science, broadly interpreted. Any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in this topic area, after an initial warning.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

30 October 2016 Reverts CFCF, removing "pseudoscience" from opening sentence.
8 November 2016, 16:28 Removes "pseudoscience" from opening sentence again.
8 November 2016, 16:43 Edit wars to once again remove "pseudoscience" from opening sentence.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

3 October 2015 Blocked for edit-warring
24 June 2010 Blocked for edit-warring

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, also see the system log linked to above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The Chiropractic article is covered by discretionary sanctions in the field of pseudoscience. The alert can be found at the top of the talk page Talk:Chiropractic, linking to WP:ARBPS.

The Chiropractic article is currently under a concerted attack to remove the appellation "pseudoscience" from the opening sentence, which reads "Chiropractic is a form of pseudoscience and alternative medicine... ". Afterwriting is now edit-warring to force the removal of the term. There is no doubt that the underlying theory that chiropractic bases itself on, "vertebral subluxations" is considered pseudoscience by mainstream scientific opinion: , , , and our Arbitration Committee has previously endorsed discretionary sanctions against editors on the chiropractic article - Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience #2009.

Afterwriting has a history of attempting to force his preferred version by editwarring (see previous blocks and his present talk page), and is now doing this again in an attempt to whitewash Chiropractic contrary to mainstream scientific and medical opinion.

I request that Afterwriting be topic-banned from chiropractic and related pages to prevent further disruption and edit-warring. --RexxS (talk) 17:41, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notification of this request

Discussion concerning Afterwriting

Statement by Afterwriting

I am very pleased that common sense has prevailed in this matter. This report had no substantial merit to it to begin with and, frankly, I had no need to defend myself against such erroneous accusations. It was an exercise in not letting the facts get in the way of a good story. As can can readily be checked, at no point in any of this "edit war" did I ever argue that mention of "pseudoscience" should not appear in the introduction or elsewhere in the article. In fact I agree that it should appear in an appropriate place and in an appropriate way. All I did was revert the addition of the term as the first description in the article, even though it already appeared elsewhere in the lead. The term was added to the opening sentence without seeking any consensus to do so and was then reverted which was entirely justifiable in terms of a number of editing policies. The editor responsible for constantly and aggressively adding this term as the first description in this and other alternative medicine articles is the one who bears principal responsible for creating any edit wars with myself and other editors. Afterwriting (talk) 06:13, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by LeadSongDog

There appears to be a troubling pattern here, edit warring with CFCF on multiple altmed articles and engaging in personal attacks: (Full disclosure: I often edit altmed pages and support WP's "bias" towards basing statements on the best-quality evidence available.)LeadSongDog come howl! 19:32, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by WhatamIdoing

It looks like CFCF WP:BOLDly added the word pseudoscience to the first/definition sentence of Chiropractic (so that it read "Chiropractic is a form of pseudoscience and alternative medicine...") about three weeks ago. That particular instance of the word pseudoscience has been removed or moved to a different paragraph in the lead by multiple editors several times in the intervening weeks (and also re-added repeatedly by CFCF and other proponents).

There is now an active discussion on the talk page about whether or not pseudoscience should be the sixth word in the article, although it may be generating more heat than light. At the moment, the terms pseudoscience and pseudomedicine appear three times in the lead and three more times in the body of the article, but (since CFCF self-reverted earlier today) it is not currently in the first sentence itself.

In terms of this AE request, I would not fault Afterwriting for removing a heavily disupted word multiple times than I would fault CFCF for re-adding it multiple times – or any of the other editors who have edited that part of the article recently. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:08, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Afterwriting

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

It's reasonable to see a general Misplaced Pages consensus that Chiropractic should be classified under pseudoscience. But attempts to stuff 'pseudoscience' into the opening sentence of the lead might appear to be provocative and likely to result in future edit wars. Even without User:CFCF's addition of pseudoscience to the opening sentence, we still have pseudoscience mentioned at the end of the first paragraph. We should expect some level of ongoing editing of the lead, but people who want to fine-tune the placement of 'pseudoscience' in the opening paragraph would normally be expected to defer to talk-page consensus. So to sanction Afterwriting for his edits and say nothing about people on the other side could appear unbalanced. (They didn't wait for a talk page consensus either). Unless there is a suggestion to apply page-level sanctions (e.g. putting a general 1RR on Chiropractic) I'd favor closing this request with no action. EdJohnston (talk) 01:57, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
Yeah I agree with EdJohnston. I do think that Afterwriting is guilty of edit warring, at least in spirit, and should not have reverted RexxS--for now, let's wait and see what the talk page discussion delivers, and let this be a stern reminder to Afterwriting that they need to tread much, much more carefully. Their second revert on 8 November was, as far as I'm concerned, blockable. Drmies (talk) 19:12, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Closing. User:Afterwriting is warned for edit warring on the lead of Chiropractic. If this continues, an AE block is likely. EdJohnston (talk) 16:09, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

bloodofox

User:Bloodofox is banned for one year from the topic of the Clintons and from people and organizations related to the Clintons on all pages of Misplaced Pages. EdJohnston (talk) 04:49, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning bloodofox

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:58, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: bloodofox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBAPDS :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

11/10 Insults, personal attacks. Accusing other editors of "shilling" (i.e. accusing other editors that they're editing Misplaced Pages for money)
11/10 Insults, personal attacks
11/10 Personal attacks, discussing editors not content

11/9 Attacking and accusing other editors, although, I guess, in general terms, WP:SOAPBOXing.
11/9 Restoring another users' actual trolling on the Hillary Clinton page , although to be fair he was also restoring his own comment. BTW, can someone take a look at that other user?
10/24 Insults and personal attacks
10/24 along with and - basically accuses me, and other editors, of working for money to edit Misplaced Pages on behalf of Hillary Clinton. Now, he does it in a "sarcastic" tone which I guess would allow them some "deniability" when called on it, but the accusation is pretty clear. When I asked him if that was indeed the accusation he was making, bloodofox's response was basically "well, you'd never admit to it anyway"

9/22 Attacks on other editors rather than discussing content
8/25 Refusal to discuss or work towards consensus because other editors are "extensions of the Clinton campaign"
8/29 Makes the accusations that other editors are working for the Clinton campaign explicit. Attacks others. Complete and total failure to assume good faith. I'm sorry but discussing with someone who is so obsessed with attacking others is simply impossible.
8/29 Insults, ridiculous accusations that other editors work "for the Clinton campaign". Language about "ground zero" clearly indicates a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality.

8/16 Insulting other editors and calling them trolls.
8/15 Insulting other editors and calling them trolls. Threats to edit war on the article to get their way. WP:BATTLEGROUND
8/15 Aspersions and personal attacks
8/15 Calling other editors comments in discussion "trolling" without evidence
8/15 More insults and accusations of trolling
8/14 More personal attacks and baseless accusations of bias
8/14 Accusations that other editors on Misplaced Pages are working for "the Clinton campaign"
8/14 Aspersions and more personal attacks, focus on discussing (and attacking) fellow editors rather than discussing content
8/13 Baseless accusations against other editors
7/8 Old, but shows a long running pattern of using personal attacks and making WP:ASPERSIONS that has been going on for awhile

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts): (note the edit summary)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Honestly I should've filed this long time ago, back in August when this started. But I try to be tolerant of incivility and personal attacks up until the point when these make discussion impossible. Give users another chance etc. But that's the point we've reached here. I have no idea of the quality/nature of bloodofox's contributions in other topic areas, but I honestly have not seen them make a single productive contribution to a discussion in American Politics. bloodofox IMMEDIATELY assumes that anyone who disagrees with them is a "paid shill", that they are working for the Clinton campaign (or were, I guess, looks like no more fat pay checks for me. Sad.) that they are troll, that they work for "Correct a Record" (which is silly, seeing as how that is/was just a website) etc. When bloodofox arrives in a discussion it basically short circuits it and makes any consensus forming process impossible. I had hoped they'd chill out after the election was over, but it appears from their recent comments that if anything it's getting worse. Those diffs from post-election November constitute something like five different insults in less than 24 hours.

And yes, I know some of these diffs are old and in and of themselves maybe they're stale - but going from August, to September, to October to today they show a very clear pattern of verbal abuse directed at other editors, a clear WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and a simple WP:NOTHERE presence in this topic area.

An indef topic ban from AmPol should be placed, and this would allow bloodofox to continue to contribute productively in other areas (assuming their editing in those is fine, like I said, I have no idea). Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:58, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

When bloodofox says he "called out" editors for their supposed POV what he really means is that he insulted and attacked them and threw ridiculous accusations at them in order to derail talk page discussions. Yeah, that's 'calling somebody out'. Right.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:32, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

In particular comments like these "Still shilling?" and "Have some dignitiy" (my dignity is fine, thank you very much) are particularly obnoxious and insulting. These two comments alone should warrant a block in addition to whatever topic ban is imposed.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:30, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

bloodofox: I was pretty explicit that there's no way for anyone to detect that anyone was working for a campaign in any capacity on Misplaced Pages - I think that pretty much illustrates the problem. "I can't prove it so I'm just going to accuse and attack".Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:34, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

bloodofox, wikilawyer however you like, but when you say to another editor "still shilling?" you are saying "you did shill". And when you say "you did shill" you are saying you were paid to edit Misplaced Pages. A person who "shills" is a "shill". So you are calling them a "shill". And this is an extremely obnoxious and serious personal attack. Especially since as you yourself admit, there's absolutely no proof of it (although, quite strangely, you appear to believe that because there is no proof of it, that makes it okay for you to make this attack on others, rather than, as would common sense suggest, the opposite).Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:18, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Can someone please explain to me why MyMoloboaccount is bringing up my supposed "Americaness" or whatever and what is this "charade" that he is referring to or how is this in any way relevant except as what appears to be an attempt to throw around more insults (though it's a peculiar choice of an insult in all honesty)? Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:05, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Again, can one of the WP:AE admins please ask Moloboaccount to stop speculating outloud about my nationality/ethnicity since it's completely beside the point and is frankly none of his goddamn business? Should I start picking random editors out here and making stuff about where they're supposedly from and where they supposedly live and what their "true" nationality is? Is that kind of behavior acceptable? And please note that I have asked him several times to stop doing this as it's obviously meant to be either insulting (at least in his mind) or a form of intimidation.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:28, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Since User:User:Tiptoethrutheminefield has just accused me of "being a shill", do I need to file a separate report or can that be folded into this one? (Also note how it's the same three or four users showing up to every single request in this topic area = Athenan, Tiptoethroughthemindfield, EtienneD, James Lambden - in particular the first three have a long history together). I'd appreciate it if some admins active on this page, like Bishonen, Dennis Brown, Drmies, Lankiveil, Guy, EdJohnston (listing those who have commented here in the recent past) would get around to looking at this.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:48, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning USERNAME

Statement by bloodofox

Ah, now that the campaign is over and it clearly didn't go his way, Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs) has apparently decided that it's time to take out his anger on other users who called him out during the election for his blatantly ideological and POV edits. The mysterious "other editors" he's referring to above are in fact a single other extremely ideological editor, an editor he frequently worked with during this period: scjessey (talk · contribs).

Whether it was trying to sanitize anything relating to the DNC (one such example, ) or simply perfume a Clinton-related article (notice that the Clinton Foundation remains essentially a puff piece), I was one of many editors who called these two out during the process. In truth, Marek spent the last few months edit-warring with those he disagreed with while using Misplaced Pages as a political platform (I have a self-imposed policy of 1 revert per 24 hour rule on all articles barring blatant vandalism).

Now, there's so much misinformation attached to his misleading diff annotations above that I can only say that it looks like that, with the election over, Marek has found a little more time on his hands and is using it to go after those he blames. He even resorts to claiming that I've restored vandalism rather than simply my comments and then takes the time to describe Correct the Record as "just a website", lol. Despite the annotations above, however, nobody accused Marek or his pal of working for anyone. And to correct the record I've never been a Trump supporter, BTW.

One thing that is true is that bias has been a major problem on our articles throughout this election cycle. I've called it out as I've seen it and all of my comments above are about concerns regarding bias on the article they're attached to, usually discussing referencing. Meanwhile, Marek has at times resorted to ping spamming me (as some of the diffs above reveal) and relentlessly edit-warred with any editor that came along, at times breaking 1RR on a variety of political articles (ex. , , ).

This is purely ideological revenge editing on the part of the Marek and, frankly, isn't worth the time I'm taking to write this out. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:17, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

—also a quick lol at the block request for telling a user to "have some dignity". :bloodofox: (talk) 16:38, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

@clpo13 (talk · contribs), please provide a diff where I've called anyone a shill. Calling someone a straight up shill versus calling someone out for shilling for a candidate isn't the same thing. You don't have to be an operative to be a biased, non-neutral and highly ideological editor peddling a party line. In fact, as the diffs above demonstrate, I was pretty explicit that there's no way for anyone to detect that anyone was working for a campaign in any capacity on Misplaced Pages (which is presumably why we have no policy against it to this day). :bloodofox: (talk) 18:21, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

@clpo13 (talk · contribs), I quite explicitly accused—and accuse—these editors of ideological editing and blatant promotion of their candidates on the site under the guise of neutral editing. Thats pretty straightforward. As I said in the diffs above, however, there's no way of confirming, denying, or even blocking anyone for any affiliation with a campaign at this time. I'm not exactly known for beating around the bush on Misplaced Pages. To be frank, if anyone deserves any sort of sanction here, it's Marek himself and for exactly the reasons I mention in the diffs above. Were they operating as if they were the Misplaced Pages extension of the Clinton campaign? Absolutely. Were they doing anything but, well, volunteering? No clue. As a result, I haven't accused anyone of working with a campaign. Any suggestion to the contrary is bullshit obfuscation. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:40, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs), I'm not going back and forth with you. Your edit history shows that you're a blatantly ideological edit warrior with zero concern for article neutrality, injecting pro-Clinton and pro-DNC bias into every article you've touched this election season. Along the way you've even somehow mustered the desire to attempt to edit war and whitewash articles in favor of such lovable figures as Debbie Wasserman Schultz (of course, that didn't fly). Sure, all that nastiness was ultimately for nothing but there are better ways to take out your personal frustrations than on wasting the time of others on Misplaced Pages.

And, gee, all this talk about concern regarding bias on these articles and the presence of the Clinton campaign. Outside of Correct the Record, there's also this interesting e-mail implying pretty strongly that the DNC has either been editing the Debbie Wasserman Schultz article (or looking to do so) since at least May of 2016. I mean, who woulda thunk it, right? :bloodofox: (talk) 20:51, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

@Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk · contribs), while I stand by all of my edits (including diffs above, regardless of Marek's dishonest—and frankly goofy—commentary) and I believe they hardly qualify as "rope", what incident are you referring to? :bloodofox: (talk) 17:41, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

@drmies (talk · contribs), with all due respect, I really don't think you're a neutral editor in this matter. As you yourself note, you and I have a long history here. The edit you're referencing is in response to a relentless editor-warrior, this guy (don't worry, he links to it from his user page). However, IMO this is a pretty straight forward, revenge-motivated vexatious complaint on the part of Marek. If anyone should be blocked from these topics, it's Marek. And I'm sure that's coming sooner or later. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:36, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@drmies (talk · contribs), the statement was "which operating as an extension of the Clinton campaign through stretches of the election" (). Please correct. Did you somehow miss, for example, the Wikileaks drops on Donna Brazile giving Clinton campaign questions in advance during the primaries while working for CNN? , etc. One of the things that was so notable about this election was the role of the press, such as this incident. CNN did in fact work closely with the Clinton campaign throughout the election, at times operating as an extension of the campaign, as Wikileaks revealed. That's an objective reality. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:52, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@drmies (talk · contribs), what I'm seeing here is that a.) you seem to have not been following these incidents (Brazile is only one example involving Clinton and CNN, click the link I provided for another—and I can provide plenty more, generally from Wikileaks drops showing coordination between CNN reps and the Clinton campaign, and from fully reliable sources (a nice summary)) and b.) your aggressive responses tell me that you're here to settle an old score—presumably one I've since long forgotten about. You know, I didn't figure you for that. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:04, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@everyone—folks, I'm dealing (via Wikimedia) with a troubling threat of violence against my person on the site. Do what you will, but I'm not able to respond or defend myself at this time. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:25, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Real quick, I should probably point out Drmies's bizarre October 27 statement "Look, I've been trying to get Bloodofox blocked for yeeeears now, haha". While this post may have started as Marek's revenge fantasy, it looks like it's shaping up as a convenient way for Drmies to finally get a taste. Note also the comments in the diff made by another user looking for blood up above. Funny how these things work on Misplaced Pages. :bloodofox: (talk) 07:51, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@Lankiveil (talk · contribs), while I'm admittedly curious about what you've figured to be my "POV" (I've never stated it—these diffs are about a total lack of neutrality in Marek's edits), I haven't edited any related articles since a day or so since the election ended.

Now, I personally limit my reverts to one revert per article per 24 hours, and I've also intended to avoid all things Clinton on Misplaced Pages in the future even before Marek's vexatious request here. And I'll be doing that regardless of the outcome here. While I would have been silent about it otherwise, I guess here I have to state that I've voluntary removed myself form the topic space. Editing Clinton and DNC-related articles simply eats up far too much of my limited Wiki-time that is best spent on other articles for topics that are far removed from the last election.

As for Marek, looking away at his ridiculous edit history on these topics isn't going to make the situation any better but, given the way the election win, chances are he might just be less active in those spaces in general. Either way, this whole thing is moot and seems to only be serving to indulge revenge fantasies at this point (i.e. like Drmies's "Look, I've been trying to get Bloodofox blocked for yeeeears now, haha"). :bloodofox: (talk) 17:14, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@EdJohnston (talk · contribs), yeah, there's "support" for a ban for topics I've already stated I'm not interested in editing. There's "support" from you, an admin who has openly stated that he's been looking to get me banned for years ("Look, I've been trying to get Bloodofox blocked for yeeeears now, haha"—whose comments should be struck), and another admin. Meanwhile, there's plenty of opposition above, largely associated with Marek's extremely non-neutral edit warring above, and my comments about how pointless and vexatious the whole thing is. All you're doing at this point is further enabling Marek. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:40, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by MrX

I almost warned bloodofox this morning when I saw his harsh personal attack at talk:Hillary Clinton. I had no idea that there was such an ongoing pattern of disruption as evidenced in the diffs provided above. The Arbcom case findings of fact were clear that such behavior is prohibited.- Mr X 16:40, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

@SashiRolls: What the actual heck are you talking about? This page is for requesting enforcement of Arbcom remedies, not for stream of consciousness story telling.- Mr X 17:22, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by SashiRolls

In the Good Soldier Švejk, there is a character by the name of Marek, Volunteer Marek. According to Misplaced Pages, "The character of one-year volunteer Marek is to some degree a self-portrait by the author, who was himself a one-year volunteer in the 91st. For example, Marek — like Hašek — was fired from the editorship of a natural history magazine after writing articles about imaginary animals. Is appointed the battalion historian by Ságner and occupies himself with devising memorable and heroic deaths in advance for his colleagues." I can't believe Volunteer Marek is back here on AE clamoring for more heads. smh. will add more if absolutely necessary. SashiRolls (talk) 17:03, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

sorry, forgot this is a diff culture:, here are some more diffs of 1RR violations from trusty Volunteer Marek: 18:12 24 Oct 16:18 24 Oct (Though I stayed away from Clinton most of the silly season (as you know @MrX:), I was very surprised to read the Foundation page when I got to it, which I never would have, except that well, y'all didn't like what I was working on earlier...) I'm sorry I am not a diff culture native, in my world the names you chose are important, as is how you talk about including or excluding things from a page. This is poorly reflected in diff culture. :) SashiRolls (talk) 17:43, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

also, would like to add that words like "(cyber) shilling", "hack", "whitewash", "pinkwash", etc. have not yet been deleted from the language. In fact, shilling, in particular seems to be fighting nobly for its existence despite no longer being a legal tender coin. ^^ (ngrams: shilling, hack) SashiRolls (talk) 14:56, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Wow. I'm amazed that Drmies can say, "Look, I've been trying to get Bloodofox blocked for yeeeears now" and then neglect to recuse himself. Misplaced Pages seems to have some serious concerns: people are banned indefinitely and for long periods for daring to use the word "shill" when dealing with disruptive behavior, but another user gets away with a 48-hour block after having called me a "sociopath", for protecting BLP pages from copyright infringement and the modification of the meaning of wiki-text summaries of dead links to blog posts they admit they've never read (relevant here since Volunteer Marek's participated -- tag-team style -- in trying to maintain this attack on Tulsi Gabbard, before I explained *all* of my reasons for reverting the edit). (Cf. ]). This selective enforcement should be very troubling, especially from an ArbCom member and from an admin who calls herself "Cardinal Mazarin" and says her "secret goal is to collect the entire little Arbcom in Bishzilla's pocket!" . Troubling. SashiRolls (talk) 10:12, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for adding that (partial) table, James. (I'll add more data in March.) ~~Strangely since cpo13 collapsed your table, I don't see any way of uncollapsing it.~~ edit: works now, must have been a glitch There's also an interesting interpretation brought below by neutrality that simply revising the words "point out" can get you into trouble as concerns certain Wikipedian truths. You might have seen it. (cf. "to write that a person clarified, explained, exposed, found, pointed out, or revealed something can imply that it is true, where a neutral account might preclude such an endorsement." -- from the MOS).

Statement by clpo13

Calling anyone a shill, under any circumstances, should be met with sanctions. American politics is a bitter enough topic without unfounded accusations of paid or otherwise influenced editing. Claims of biased editing can be made without such a loaded word. clpo13_(talk) 18:07, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

@Bloodofox: Oh well, that changes everything. So long as you don't label someone, you can safely accuse them of all sorts of things. "I didn't call them a vandal. I just said they were vandalizing articles.", etc. No matter how you word it, it's a unnecessary comment that only inflames the situation. Throwing accusations around doesn't help anything. clpo13_(talk) 18:31, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by MyMoloboaccount

Plenty of the alleged proofs of bloodfox offensive remarkes actually lead to innocent statements like Hopefully you'll meet the next Wiki-gang on the block sometime soon and neutrality rather than political preference will win out. I remember VM making far more offensive comments without getting sanctions. Seems this is a case of a political spat resulting from HC's failure to win the election and VM being upset about this. Anyway can we finally drop the charade and call Volunteer Marek an American without him getting into a fit about supposed outing? The comments and edits in past couple of months make it clear that he is one. Thats all from me, I guess, people should cheer up, make Misplaced Pages great again and PRAISE KEK!.

Volunteer_Marek-there is nothing insulting in being American or editing from USA. Many editors in the past have been confused by your nickname and thought you are from Poland, that is is all. As to supposed, I think your edits and comments about voting in recent US elections make it clear anyway(and since we are friends of Facebook I know that indeed it is true :P). It's no big deal but clears up confusion, and for some reason in the past you treated it as very big outing.

--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:30, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Athenean

Anyone familiar with this topic area knows full well that VM comes here with unclean hands. Volunteer Marek complaining about another user being incivil is quite the irony. VM has been pushing a strong POV in this area from day 1, with typical incivility. Just one of many examples . It's not hard to find such examples. Many of his talkpage contribs are laced with accusations of bad faith and condescension, designed to get under his opponents' skin as much as possible without quite crossing the line into outright name calling. In addition to incivility, he edit-wars frequently, afterwards claiming to "forget" that an article is under 1RR . And just recently he agreed to a voluntary 1RR restriction to narrowly avert a topic ban . Given Marek's unclean hands, the request has no merit and should be struck. Athenean (talk) 18:54, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Tiptoethrutheminefield

Regarding the "shilling" accusation, there is no question that Volunteer Marek has been a shill in the past. His activities in the past have at certain times fitted the definition of shill - appearing to act independently but in fact acting as part of an organized group and behaving according to a predetermined plan so as to realize a particular goal. That was proven in a previous notable case. This does not make bloodofox's accusation / implication of shilling justified, but it questions the real level of offense felt by VM. I don't find VM's assertion that he felt it "obnoxious and insulting" to be particularly credible. The insults and personal attacks seem mild stuff when taken one at a time and this case looks a lot like Volunteer Marek allowing another editor to produce enough rope to hang themselves. Taken as a whole there probably is enough rope here - and little in the cited posts of bloodofox cogently address content issues. But I suspect only one side is being shown and I wonder about what content issues and disagreements produced these exchanges. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 04:18, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

And regarding Drmies "complete lack of good faith" comment. I gave no such "you were asking for it" justification - I actually said the opposite, that bloodofox's accusation of shilling was NOT justified. What I was questioning was the level of offense caused by that accusation. It is not "bad faith" to refer to a notable case that found VM had been editing on behalf of a secret off-wiki mailing list group in order to advance a particular pov. That pov is still at the heart of every VM edit - and if it is supported by sources is all fair and good. But the often extreme fringeness and obsessiveness of EEML beliefs is revealed in this recent post by another former member of the same mailing list group - the idea that Hitler was a result of a Russian conspiracy, and Trump too is also a result of a Russian conspiracy - and both conspiracies have the same aims: Russian domination of the world. I think that in the EEML world view there are Russians lying waiting under every bed and in every closet, attic, cellar or dark corridor, ready to spring out and drag the unprepared to hell or worse. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:15, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

I also agree with DoubleCross and SashiRolls regarding Drmies here . Administrator on a mission or what? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:25, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by James J. Lambden

I thought a catalog of recent election-related requests might be helpful/illuminating from a data analytics standpoint. Table includes: filer, accused, whether the edits were (reasonably) pro-Clinton/anti-Trump or anti-Clinton/pro-Trump, and the result.

Filer	Accused	ProClinton/ AntiTrump	AntiClinton/ ProTrump	Sanctioned	Comment
Volunteer Marek	Doc9871		✓	●	Doc9871 (talk · contribs) topic banned 1 month from all pages related to Donald Trump by Bishonen (talk · contribs), and is further warned that any disruption in the topic areas covered under Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 will lead to an extension and/or broadening of the ban. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:07, 2 August 2016 (UTC) Link
EtienneDolet	Volunteer Marek and My very best wishes	✓			No action taken, see admin discussion below. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 01:09, 15 August 2016 (UTC) Link
Geogene	JGabbard		✓	●	JGabbard (talk · contribs) is topic-banned from the topic of post-1932 politics of the United States, and closely related people, broadly construed, for six months. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 23:42, 27 August 2016 (UTC) Link
The Four Deuces	Volunteer Marek	✓			No action taken. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 19:07, 10 September 2016 (UTC) Link
CFredkin	Volunteer Marek	✓		○	CFredkin is banned from the topic of post-1932 politics of the United States, and closely related people, broadly construed, for three months. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 21:00, 24 September 2016 (UTC) Link
Volunteer Marek	Marteau		✓		Not closed Link
Anythingyouwant	Volunteer Marek	✓			Request withdrawn--Ymblanter (talk) 18:50, 18 October 2016 (UTC) Link
BU Rob13	Anythingyouwant		✓		The originally reported edits were good faith reverts as potential BLP problems and so were exempt from revert restrictions. Therefore, no violation of 1RR occurred from these edits. Any other issues should be brought up as separate issues rather than being rolled into this one. All editors are reminded that a clear consensus is required to revert an edit which notes it corrects a BLP problem. Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:42, 20 October 2016 (UTC) Link
The Wordsmith	EEng	✓			There's no consensus that any sanctions should apply against EEng. While there is also not a consensus on whether the initial deletion was appropriate, the matter was later resolved through discussion, so it's rather moot at this point. No further action has been suggested or seems to be needed. There may be an indication that a wider community discussion is needed on what's acceptable in terms of "joke" and satire pages, but that's well beyond the scope of AE. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:22, 18 November 2016 (UTC) Link
Volunteer Marek	Anythingyouwant		✓	●	Anythingyouwant (talk · contribs) is banned from the topic of post-1932 politics of the United States, and closely related people, broadly construed, until the 2016 US presidential election is complete and the losing candidate has conceded, or until December 1, whichever is earlier. Vanamonde (talk) 10:46, 27 October 2016 (UTC) Link
EvergreenFir	Wecarlisle		✓	○	Premature for AE. Handled as a conventional administrative issue, short block issued by Bishonen. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:01, 28 October 2016 (UTC) Link
MrX	Ihardlythinkso		✓	●	Ihardlythinkso (talk · contribs) is banned from the topic of post-1932 politics of the United States, and closely related people, broadly construed, until the 2016 US presidential election is complete and the losing candidate has conceded, or until December 1, whichever is earlier. (Unsigned, Lankiveil) Link
DrFleischman	My very best wishes	✓			Not closed Link

Note: I couldn't figure out how to collapse the table – if anyone knows how I'd appreciate it. James J. Lambden (talk) 21:03, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by DoubleCross

I agree with bloodofox and SashiRolls regarding this statement by Drmies - he has absolutely no business being involved in this request. DoubleCross (talk) 04:36, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Result concerning bloodofox

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I have blocked Tiptoe for the "shill" comment, for 72 hours. It exhibits a complete lack of good faith, and suggests a kind of "you were asking for it" justification. Drmies (talk) 19:22, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
About the case: yeah, "shilling" is a blockable insult (as a complete violation of AGF), but I was all ready to say something like "Bloodofox is a bit heavy-handed, heat of the moment, etc" until I ran into this one (I went from the bottom up), which tells me that the editor is way too not neutral to be editing in this area. I support a topic ban from this election and all articles directly associated with it. I don't propose a more broad topic ban, of all politics since 1932 or whatever. Note: I've had some dealings with the editor, some better than others, and I've criticized them for edit warring and problems with sourcing reliably. I do not consider myself involved in respect to bloodofox, and all our dealings have been in articles that were many miles and many years removed from this area. Drmies (talk) 02:16, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- Bloodofox, if you claim that CNN is an "extension of the Clinton campaign" then you have already disqualified yourself from objective editing in this topic area. Drmies (talk) 03:45, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- That you wish to argue this moot point here speaks volumes: your claims are about one individual, who was in fact fired by CNN for her behavior. Extending that into a blanket statement means you lack the judgment to be neutral and separate fact from internet story. Drmies (talk) 03:59, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- You can accuse me of aggression (or ignorance) all you will; it makes no difference to me. I think the diffs speak for themselves here. Drmies (talk) 04:10, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- Bloodofox, I'm entering this in the record late, since I was only just alerted to your response. It should be obvious to anyone that the comment I made about having tried to block you was an obvious joke; note the "haha". Note also that I made this comment jokingly in a thread in which I seriously defended your edits which I thought were unfairly criticized. Let's have further discussion, if need be, elsewhere please. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 17:32, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
- EdJohnston, if you look at their edit history you see they're focused on the "Clinton side", so to speak--esp. Clinton herself, the Clinton Foundation, the Podesta emails, and Huma Abedin. One might expect them to move into the Trump area now that the election is over, perhaps, but if they become disruptive there we can, I suppose, always expand the scope; with many of these recent cases I prefer conservative topic bans. So for now I think I'm satisfied with my rough formulation of a topic ban but I am perfectly happy to have you or others tweak it or propose something broader; I am sure that a few more admins will weigh in. But we do need to have a topic ban of sorts, and a year is plenty long. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 05:53, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
  - DoubleCross, I don't know who you are, but I do know this: I have no current conflicts with Bloodofox and am not INVOLVED with them. Drmies (talk) 23:15, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
I agree with a topic ban of User:Bloodofox under WP:ARBAP2 as proposed by User:Drmies but the scope of the ban would need to be well-defined. Do you think 'this election and all articles directly associated with it' is specific enough? What about the Trump transition – is that included? How about Trump cabinet members? If the scope can't be nailed down, what about a time-limited ban (such as one year) from all of WP:ARBAP2? EdJohnston (talk) 05:08, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm not even going to consider anything from before November; if it wasn't worth reporting then it's not worth reporting now. I could potentially AGF this as a botched attempt to revert a perceived problematic edit. This still leaves a bunch of problematic battleground stuff, exactly the sort of thing that we don't want. The discussion over the precise meaning of "shilling" is a red herring; regardless of the intent it's still a personal attack. I'm seeing someone who is too dedicated to pushing a particular POV to be a useful editor in this topic area, and I don't see that anything short of removing User:Bloodofox from the topic area is going to stop the problem, although I'd welcome suggestions for solutions less drastic than that. Finally, with regards to Marek's alleged sins; I invite anyone to raise a request here if they feel they've gone further than Bloodofox. We can't action concerns that aren't raised. Lankiveil 10:49, 17 November 2016 (UTC).

@Bloodofox: I appreciate that you've managed to stay off the topic area in the past week or so, my main problem is that from your responses here you don't seem to understand why the battleground mentality you've exhibited is a bad thing, retreating into semantic arguments that completely miss the point. Help me out here; how do we stop this from happening again? Lankiveil 10:10, 19 November 2016 (UTC).

There is support for a ban but the wording of the ban is not settled. How about "Bloodofox is banned for one year from the topic of the Clintons, and from people and organizations related to the Clintons on all pages of Misplaced Pages" That would be broad enough to include the Clinton Foundation and Huma Abedin. EdJohnston (talk) 16:31, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
- I support a ban with that phrasing, EdJohnston. Bishonen | talk 19:59, 18 November 2016 (UTC).
  - It seems to me that this request is ready to close, with "Bloodofox is banned for one year from the topic if the Clintons, and from people and organizations related to the Clintons on all pages of Misplaced Pages". I will do this soon if no other admin beats me to it. EdJohnston (talk) 23:32, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
    - Now closing with a topic ban for User:Bloodofox as described. EdJohnston (talk) 04:46, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Towns Hill

Blocked one week for topic ban violation. EdJohnston (talk) 16:44, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Request concerning Towns Hill User who is submitting this request for enforcement EvergreenFir (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:36, 13 November 2016 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Towns Hill (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced WP:ARBIPA Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 07:03, 18 October 2016 Edit on Kashmir related to Dogra dynasty, which would fall under Pakistani-Indian conflict. 09:40, 10 November 2016 Edit on Pakistan saying "Since 1989, thousands of Kashmiri Muslim refugees have sought refuge in Pakistan, complaining that many of the refugee women had been raped by Indian soldiers and that they were forced out of their homes by the soldiers." Unambiguously related to conflict between India and Pakistan. 22:11, 12 November 2016 Edit on Pakistan about the First Kashmir War, the partition of India, the rape of Kashmiri women by Indian soldiers, and genocide. Unambiguously related to conflict between India and Pakistan. 21:56, 12 November 2016 Edit on Pakistan which copied material from Partition of India. Similar to 22:11, 12 November 2016 edit. Unambiguously related to conflict between India and Pakistan. 02:35, 14 November 2016 edit made after user replied to this AE. Edit falls under tban. 02:38, 14 November 2016 Same as above Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any 02:49, 24 March 2016 Discretionary sanctions (1RR) placed on user by Slakr for 1 month 00:20, 1 April 2016 Blocked by Drmies for 60 hours for edit warring on Bangladesh Liberation War. 15:12, 15 May 2016 Topic banned from "Banned from the topic of conflicts between India and Pakistan and from anything to do with Bangladesh." by EdJohnston. Can be appealed after 6 months. 01:02, 1 October 2016 Blocked by Lankiveil for 72 hours for topic ban violation as a result of previous AE filing If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts) Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above. Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 15:12, 15 May 2016 by EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). Additional comments by editor filing complaint Other edits "toe the line" but these were the most egregious. In the previous AE filing, the validity of the Bangladesh topic ban was questioned as it's not explicitly mentioned in WP:ARBIPA so I have excluded diffs related to violation of that aspect of the topic ban. @Mar4d: you'll have to ask EdJohnston why he did the topic ban. It appears to be because the user was disruptive. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:51, 16 November 2016 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 19:37, 13 November 2016 Discussion concerning Towns Hill Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by Towns Hill The original ban was imposed invalidly to begin with. It was hastily issued and based upon one editor's incendiary comment to an admin's talk page. I was never reported at AE and was not even given a chance to defend myself. I was banned on a comment of an editor who went on admin shopping and knew which admin would be more than willing to entertain his request because that specific admin has been mentioning distributing topic-bans on forums in the past. Towns_Hill 21:59, 13 November 2016 (UTC) Towns Hill Statement by Mar4d No comment on the ruling, but as far as this whole sanction on Towns Hill is concerned, it really appears counterproductive and pointless to me, in my opinion. I think the purpose of sanctions is not punitive, but preventative. This filing appears to give an impression of the former. Some of the diffs cited above for example appear to be actually productive edits, and appear to improve article content (particularly those on the ethnic Kashmiris page). This doesn't harm Misplaced Pages so long as Towns Hill makes sure his additions are reliably sourced and verifiable. Towns Hill has kept to his restriction for a few months, and I think he has the potential to be a productive editor. Instead of wasting time on these nitty-gritty enforcements, I for one think we should re-visit the sanctions in the first place, and try to re-integrate TH into editing. Why were they enforced, and what can/should be improved? I would be happy to guide TH or provide assistance if necessary. Mar4d (talk) 15:31, 15 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by Kautilya3 First of all, to clarify my position on EdJohnston's topic ban. I had misread the topic ban wording in the first instance and thought that it was a ban on all India and Pakistan pages. So I thought it was too severe. When I did finally notice that it was limited to India-Pakistan conflicts, I thought the ban was appropriate. When Towns Hill came on the scene, pretty much all the India-Pakistan conflict pages went up in flames. If the ban is lifted, I am afraid we might go back to the same situation. I did try to engage with Towns Hill quite seriously prior to the ban, e.g., here, but I am afraid it fell on deaf ears. Has his behaviour improved since the ban? I think not. Here, for instance, is an edit where Towns Hill got into a dispute (on Kashmiri diaspora). Whereas I tried to open a talk page discussion to try and find a resolution, Towns Hill put his foot down and reinstated his edit. In this instance, I agree with Towns Hill on the merits of the issue, but not with his way of dealing with it. Kashmiri diaspora is a little corner, where this behaviour didn't give rise to any great problems. If he does this kind of thing again at Bangladesh liberation war, we will again have flame wars. So my recommendation is to cut him some slack in dealing with Kashmir, which is his special interest, but continue the wider topic ban until he learns to finds his way around WP:NPOV and resolving disputes amicably. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:15, 16 November 2016 (UTC) The edits 1, 5, and 6 mentioned above are not covered by the topic ban in my opinion. The Dogra dynasty is neither India nor Pakistan. And, what happened in the 19th century is unrelated to India-Pakistan conflict as well. Conflicts between Kashmiris and India, or those between Kashmiris and Pakistan are also not covered by the ban. I would like to recommend that these areas be left open for Towns Hill to edit so that he can demonstrate his good will in due course. All matters regarding Partition of India are of course part of India-Pakistan conflict. - Kautilya3 (talk) 16:35, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by (username) Result concerning Towns Hill This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. Noticing that User:Mar4d and User:Kautilya3 see value in User:Towns Hill's edits, I asked User:EvergreenFir on their talk page about the idea of lifting the ban. It is disappointing that Towns Hill seems unable to follow the terms of the existing ban, but if the ban is lifted this problem will no longer occur. Any comments? If anyone wants to review their edits, notice that all their warnings and blocks (since account creation in January) are still visible at User talk:Towns Hill. Towns Hill does not seem to have much insight into which of their edits might be controversial, and they have gotten into edit wars, but they sometimes do good work. They seem not to understand either 3RR or 1RR, so if these problems recur, they will probably get blocked again. To get a quick overview of the problems with Towns Hill you might look at User talk:Towns Hill#Notice that you are now subject to an arbitration enforcement sanction 2 and the discussion that follows it. Towns Hill does have academic knowledge, but switches into battleground mode easily when they feel people are opposing them unfairly. EdJohnston (talk) 18:40, 16 November 2016 (UTC) I am not a fan of lifting restrictions because people refuse to abide by them, however productive some of their edits may be judged by others. The correct route to appeal a sanction is not an enforcement request by someone concerned about violation of the sanction. Guy (Help!) 23:53, 16 November 2016 (UTC) Well, on the theory that we shouldn't reward people for ignoring their bans, this case ought to close with a regular block for some period, and if Towns Hill wants the ban lifted or modified he should file an Arbitration Enforcement Appeal. Which we would not address in the current thread. EdJohnston (talk) 05:12, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Closing. Per User:Kautilya3's observations, only diffs 2, 3 and 4 are definitely covered by the current wording of Towns Hill's topic ban, 'Banned from the topic of conflicts between India and Pakistan and from anything to do with Bangladesh.' The Kashmiri troubles in the 19th century that predated the creation of Pakistan can be assumed not to be included, but alleged rapes by Indian soldiers on the contested territory of Kashmir are definitely included, and anything related to the Partition of India is included. So I'm closing with a one-week block for ban violation. The block might be lifted if we become confident that Towns Hill understands and will follow his topic ban in the future. EdJohnston (talk) 16:42, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Blocked one week for topic ban violation. EdJohnston (talk) 16:44, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Towns Hill

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: EvergreenFir (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:36, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Towns Hill (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBIPA

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

07:03, 18 October 2016 Edit on Kashmir related to Dogra dynasty, which would fall under Pakistani-Indian conflict.
09:40, 10 November 2016 Edit on Pakistan saying "Since 1989, thousands of Kashmiri Muslim refugees have sought refuge in Pakistan, complaining that many of the refugee women had been raped by Indian soldiers and that they were forced out of their homes by the soldiers." Unambiguously related to conflict between India and Pakistan.
22:11, 12 November 2016 Edit on Pakistan about the First Kashmir War, the partition of India, the rape of Kashmiri women by Indian soldiers, and genocide. Unambiguously related to conflict between India and Pakistan.
21:56, 12 November 2016 Edit on Pakistan which copied material from Partition of India. Similar to 22:11, 12 November 2016 edit. Unambiguously related to conflict between India and Pakistan.
02:35, 14 November 2016 edit made after user replied to this AE. Edit falls under tban.
02:38, 14 November 2016 Same as above

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

02:49, 24 March 2016 Discretionary sanctions (1RR) placed on user by Slakr for 1 month
00:20, 1 April 2016 Blocked by Drmies for 60 hours for edit warring on Bangladesh Liberation War.
15:12, 15 May 2016 Topic banned from "Banned from the topic of conflicts between India and Pakistan and from anything to do with Bangladesh." by EdJohnston. Can be appealed after 6 months.
01:02, 1 October 2016 Blocked by Lankiveil for 72 hours for topic ban violation as a result of previous AE filing

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 15:12, 15 May 2016 by EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Other edits "toe the line" but these were the most egregious. In the previous AE filing, the validity of the Bangladesh topic ban was questioned as it's not explicitly mentioned in WP:ARBIPA so I have excluded diffs related to violation of that aspect of the topic ban.

@Mar4d: you'll have to ask EdJohnston why he did the topic ban. It appears to be because the user was disruptive. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:51, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

19:37, 13 November 2016

Discussion concerning Towns Hill

Statement by Towns Hill

The original ban was imposed invalidly to begin with. It was hastily issued and based upon one editor's incendiary comment to an admin's talk page. I was never reported at AE and was not even given a chance to defend myself. I was banned on a comment of an editor who went on admin shopping and knew which admin would be more than willing to entertain his request because that specific admin has been mentioning distributing topic-bans on forums in the past. Towns_Hill 21:59, 13 November 2016 (UTC) Towns Hill

Statement by Mar4d

No comment on the ruling, but as far as this whole sanction on Towns Hill is concerned, it really appears counterproductive and pointless to me, in my opinion. I think the purpose of sanctions is not punitive, but preventative. This filing appears to give an impression of the former. Some of the diffs cited above for example appear to be actually productive edits, and appear to improve article content (particularly those on the ethnic Kashmiris page). This doesn't harm Misplaced Pages so long as Towns Hill makes sure his additions are reliably sourced and verifiable. Towns Hill has kept to his restriction for a few months, and I think he has the potential to be a productive editor. Instead of wasting time on these nitty-gritty enforcements, I for one think we should re-visit the sanctions in the first place, and try to re-integrate TH into editing. Why were they enforced, and what can/should be improved? I would be happy to guide TH or provide assistance if necessary. Mar4d (talk) 15:31, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Kautilya3

First of all, to clarify my position on EdJohnston's topic ban. I had misread the topic ban wording in the first instance and thought that it was a ban on all India and Pakistan pages. So I thought it was too severe. When I did finally notice that it was limited to India-Pakistan conflicts, I thought the ban was appropriate.

When Towns Hill came on the scene, pretty much all the India-Pakistan conflict pages went up in flames. If the ban is lifted, I am afraid we might go back to the same situation. I did try to engage with Towns Hill quite seriously prior to the ban, e.g., here, but I am afraid it fell on deaf ears. Has his behaviour improved since the ban? I think not.

Here, for instance, is an edit where Towns Hill got into a dispute (on Kashmiri diaspora). Whereas I tried to open a talk page discussion to try and find a resolution, Towns Hill put his foot down and reinstated his edit. In this instance, I agree with Towns Hill on the merits of the issue, but not with his way of dealing with it. Kashmiri diaspora is a little corner, where this behaviour didn't give rise to any great problems. If he does this kind of thing again at Bangladesh liberation war, we will again have flame wars.

So my recommendation is to cut him some slack in dealing with Kashmir, which is his special interest, but continue the wider topic ban until he learns to finds his way around WP:NPOV and resolving disputes amicably. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:15, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

The edits 1, 5, and 6 mentioned above are not covered by the topic ban in my opinion. The Dogra dynasty is neither India nor Pakistan. And, what happened in the 19th century is unrelated to India-Pakistan conflict as well. Conflicts between Kashmiris and India, or those between Kashmiris and Pakistan are also not covered by the ban. I would like to recommend that these areas be left open for Towns Hill to edit so that he can demonstrate his good will in due course. All matters regarding Partition of India are of course part of India-Pakistan conflict. - Kautilya3 (talk) 16:35, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Towns Hill

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Noticing that User:Mar4d and User:Kautilya3 see value in User:Towns Hill's edits, I asked User:EvergreenFir on their talk page about the idea of lifting the ban. It is disappointing that Towns Hill seems unable to follow the terms of the existing ban, but if the ban is lifted this problem will no longer occur. Any comments? If anyone wants to review their edits, notice that all their warnings and blocks (since account creation in January) are still visible at User talk:Towns Hill. Towns Hill does not seem to have much insight into which of their edits might be controversial, and they have gotten into edit wars, but they sometimes do good work. They seem not to understand either 3RR or 1RR, so if these problems recur, they will probably get blocked again.
To get a quick overview of the problems with Towns Hill you might look at User talk:Towns Hill#Notice that you are now subject to an arbitration enforcement sanction 2 and the discussion that follows it. Towns Hill does have academic knowledge, but switches into battleground mode easily when they feel people are opposing them unfairly. EdJohnston (talk) 18:40, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
I am not a fan of lifting restrictions because people refuse to abide by them, however productive some of their edits may be judged by others. The correct route to appeal a sanction is not an enforcement request by someone concerned about violation of the sanction. Guy (Help!) 23:53, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Well, on the theory that we shouldn't reward people for ignoring their bans, this case ought to close with a regular block for some period, and if Towns Hill wants the ban lifted or modified he should file an Arbitration Enforcement Appeal. Which we would not address in the current thread. EdJohnston (talk) 05:12, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Closing. Per User:Kautilya3's observations, only diffs 2, 3 and 4 are definitely covered by the current wording of Towns Hill's topic ban, 'Banned from the topic of conflicts between India and Pakistan and from anything to do with Bangladesh.' The Kashmiri troubles in the 19th century that predated the creation of Pakistan can be assumed not to be included, but alleged rapes by Indian soldiers on the contested territory of Kashmir are definitely included, and anything related to the Partition of India is included. So I'm closing with a one-week block for ban violation. The block might be lifted if we become confident that Towns Hill understands and will follow his topic ban in the future. EdJohnston (talk) 16:42, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

EEng

There's no consensus that any sanctions should apply against EEng. While there is also not a consensus on whether the initial deletion was appropriate, the matter was later resolved through discussion, so it's rather moot at this point. No further action has been suggested or seems to be needed. There may be an indication that a wider community discussion is needed on what's acceptable in terms of "joke" and satire pages, but that's well beyond the scope of AE. Seraphimblade 06:22, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning EEng User who is submitting this request for enforcement The Wordsmith (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:15, 16 November 2016 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested EEng (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 : Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it User:EEng contained massive BLP violations (see below). Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts) Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months . Additional comments by editor filing complaint Userpage contained massive, massive BLP violations, including calling public figures "pussies", extensive allegations of Donald Trump being a Nazi, snippets of speeches with things Trump rails against wikilinked to Jews, accusations of racism, antisemitism, and a whole lot that I could devote many paragraphs to. Frankly, it is the worst BLP violation in userspace I've seen in a long time. I'm baffled that it was allowed to stand for this long, with a number of veteran editors even applauding the effort on his talkpage and contributing to it. Aside from the obvious BLP, we also have WP:NOTWEBHOST and WP:UP#POLEMIC that this crosses the line on. I've summarily deleted the page as per policy and in keeping with Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff#Summary deletion of BLPs, but as I'm recused from AP2 enforcement I'm not going to take further unilateral action, and instead will bring it here for uninvolved admin input. The Wordsmith 22:15, 16 November 2016 (UTC) @Iridescent: That "one section" spans roughly half of a very, very large page. It also goes back quite far into the history. The libel was bad enough, in my estimation, that a simple section blanking or RevDel was not sufficient to excise it. The Wordsmith 22:54, 16 November 2016 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested Discussion concerning EEng Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by EEng To show that Wordsmith has misinterpreted this material is impossible at the moment, since he's jumped the gun and deleted the page. But in brief (as explained on the page itself) my user page is meant to be a source of amusement for editors taking a break from the humdrum workaday cares of editing, and many comments on my talk page attest to its success along those lines. Obviously I would never seriously compare anyone to Hitler (except maybe Hitler, I guess) because that would be a BLP violation. That the situation isn't nearly as clearcut at Wordsmith seem to think is well-illustrated by the fact that at least one editor was able to characterize me as "a Donald Trump supporter" . Wordsmith's unilateral deletion of the page in advance of discussion is obviously inappropriate, give that (a) as he explicitly points out, a large number of admins are aware of its content and do not share his concerns, and (b) most of the material on the page has nothing to do with his complaint anyway, yet has been thrown out with the bathwater. Those three points aside, since the election's now over and the amusement potential has drained from the situation, I'm happy to let the chips fall where they may, according to the community's judgment. E Eng 22:56, 16 November 2016 (UTC) @Softlavender:: Thanks for the careful analysis. As mentioned before, I'll be happy to conform the page to the community's wishes. Unfortunately Iridescent's kind gesture in restoring a/o June 14 doesn't quite work, since other material was added/changed in the interim unrelated to the discussion here. For example (no kidding) because of a renaming of files over at Commons, the June 14 version's reference to File:Hooker, which used to invoke the moving devotional image File:Hooker's_Company_reach_the_Connecticut.jpg (and actually did so, on June 14), now points to the image seen at File:Hooker.jpg, causing the latter to be the one now displayed by the June 14 version, and thereby lending unintentional if not entirely unwelcome amusement. E Eng 23:43, 16 November 2016 (UTC) Breaching AE protocol by commenting outside my section, but for ease of reading... Unfortunately, if one accepts that the Trump section is libelous, than the intervening revisions can't be restored because they'll include the offending content. Provided you're happy to have me post it even though it breaks attribution, I can just manually paste the content of the page as of this morning, minus that section, over the existing page. ‑ Iridescent 23:47, 16 November 2016 (UTC) Just to nudge in here on a hop and a dash, and excuse my throwing-in of the towel, but the image of the young lady with the title "Hooker" may, in retrospect, be as much of a BLP violation as anything dreamed up in heaven or earth or on EEng's page, and probably should be renamed, like, right now, before she's solicited on the street by well meaning Wikipedians. Randy Kryn 00:52, 17 November 2016 (UTC) That's a strange concern coming from someone named Randy. E Eng 01:15, 17 November 2016 (UTC) @Newyorkbrad:, One comment re your sensible criterion, but when an attempt at humor causes widespread dissension and unhappiness among one's colleagues and becomes a distraction...: I completely agree, but in this case, of the literally thousands of editors who have apparently visited my user page in the last six months there has been, to my recollection, exactly one objection registered -- which I resolved by making a change addressing the concern expressed. (Can't diff that edit since it's in the deleted part of the history.) Had there been more than that, I would certainly have rethought my approach. I too am pleased this is being discussed so constructively (by most, at any rate). E Eng 01:00, 17 November 2016 (UTC) @Krakatoakatie: That you you are able interpret a certain photo + caption (or anything else, for that matter) as an actual "suggestion that Hillary Clinton was a dancer at Jack Ruby's burlesque club" (in 1963, when she was 15 years old) – much less that such a photo can possibly make "political statements about post-1932 American politics" – is emblematic of the serious clue-lack being displayed by a very (thankfully) few here. And there's no disputing that Trump really does look like Mussolini, and quotes him too. E Eng 04:27, 17 November 2016 (UTC) @BU Rob13: Re perhaps, we aren't just spouting off about nothing, given that you haven't seen the page in its entirety... well, perhaps, but then there's no way to know for those not members of the Sacred Congregation of the Index, is there? E Eng 11:45 pm, Yesterday (UTC−5) And, sorry I upset you by unknowingly breaking protocol – I'm new to AE. And I realize it must be frustrating that you're reduced to procedural quibbles rather than substantive responses. @BU Rob13: Re your request , here are the three sources you asked for: Trump's wife vs. sex doll; Eric Trump vs. "pussy"; Trump's fat fetish (For the record I did not, as you claim, imply that Christie has a fetish for "overweight" women, rather that those attracted to heavy persons might have ample reason to find him alluring, which seems beyond cavil.) What you refuse to acknowledge is that this material qualifies under Newyorkbrad's very sensible test i.e. (1) statements are made about a prominent living person that would be defamatory if taken literally, but (2) the intent is satirical and no reasonable reader would take them literally (and that goes for the sources I just linked too). As for your assertion that I "was spoken to and refused to remove the content", that's untrue. Some weeks ago concern was raised about one particular section and (~~though this isn't apparent in the discussion you link, and~~ as noted in the very discussion you link , though for obvious reasons I can't now supply a diff) I made an edit addressing that concern, which the OP apparently found satisfactory. Face it: thousands saw the page and found no problem, and even if, on consideration, it's best that the material be banished the idea that fanciful material only in userspace could lead to a topic ban is absurd. E Eng 09:20, 17 November 2016 (UTC) @BU Rob13: Re , as already explained (above) the sources I linked underscore the satirical nature of the content, in keeping with Newyorkbrad's criterion. Now at this point I'll allow you to vent away without feeling the need to respond, since the outcome of this misbegotten thread seems clear enough, despite your hopes and dreams. E Eng 09:53, 17 November 2016 (UTC) @Ryk72: Re , you don't seem to have read very carefully the discussion you linked. Contrary to what you imply, what that discussion shows is that the one and only time someone raised an objection, after a brief discussion I made a change addressing that objection, and that was the end of it. So your reference to "the sisyphean effort of raising objection would be a futile waste of time" is nonsense. The question here is less whether the material should stand -- perhaps it shouldn't, given that a significant minority find it problematic -- but the heavyhanded and time-wasting way this matter was handled. E Eng 11:27, 17 November 2016 (UTC) @Tide rolls: Re (I doubt frustrations could be avoided no matter the path), I don't know what makes you think that. Had someone merely asked, I probably would have deleted most or all of the section. I was planning to anyway – just hadn't got around to it. This has been an enormous waste of time and drama because some nervous nellie thinks the sky is falling. E Eng 23:31, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by Floquenbeam Meh. Won't argue with the deletion, but no sanction needed, I don't imagine EEng is going to reinstate it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:47, 16 November 2016 (UTC) Clarify: Per Iri below, I won't argue with deletion of the portion that Wordsmith finds objectionable, and I don't imagine EEng is going to reinstate the portion that Wordsmith finds objectionable. The rest of it can surely be left alone. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:52, 16 November 2016 (UTC) Comment by Iridescent Looking at the page, you only appear to have a problem with one section, since everything from "Some Entertaining Diversions" onwards is just the straightforward stuff one finds on many userpages—not my cup of tea (IMO the principle of "the more images a user has on their userpage, the less likely their opinions will be worth reading" is generally a fairly firm rule), but entirely non-controversial. Why the need for a scorched-earth deletion rather than just removing the section you found objectionable? ‑ Iridescent 22:46, 16 November 2016 (UTC) I've restored the history up to 14 June, which took all of three mouse clicks, and doesn't appear to include anything contentious. While I appreciate WP:ARBAPDS technically covers "all pages relating to American politics", in practice we've always allowed very broad leeway for people to make political comments pro-or-anti current politicians on their user and talk pages provided they're not grossly offensive to the extent they have a chilling effect on other editors; while I agree this crossed the WP:POLEMIC line I'd certainly not want to see any sanction here. ‑ Iridescent 23:05, 16 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by User:Martinevans123 I've also frequently compared Trump to Hitler. I've even called him "Orange Hitler" a few times. It's a common problem. But you're saying that entire page was devoted to a BLP violation of that one individual? Does policy demand that the entire page is disappeared, without any request at all being made to the owner to delete the offending parts? A lot of time and effort went into constructing the jokes on that page and some of them were even clever and funny. It brought amusement to many people. I think you're risking a lot of editors seeing your enforcement as taking "a sledgehammer to crack a nut". Folks may even think you're a Trump sympathiser. I guess that's a risk you think is worth taking. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:56, 16 November 2016 (UTC) Can the word "plethora" include Democrat politicians? Or is such a suggestion "breaching AE protocol"? Yes, you are right, User:BU Rob13, Trump is no pussy. Martinevans123 (talk) 00:08, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by Davey2010 IMHO the page hadn't contained any BLP violations and being totally honest this whole enforcement thing didn't need to happen either ... TW could've simply left a message and saved all our times being wasted, Userpage should be reinstated and TW should move on. –Davey2010 23:09, 16 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by HBH Comparing anyone or anything to Hitler is beyond the pale. Good work, Herr Wordsmith --Hillbillyholiday 23:13, 16 November 2016 (UTC) Did you know that poor Donald couldn't serve his country in the armed forces because of heel spurs? ... but, you know, something just doesn't seem to quite click with that story. Allegedly. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:22, 16 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by BU Rob13 I'd like to see any editor assert, in good faith, that calling one of Trump's sons "a chip off the old pussy" is not a BLP violation. I also eagerly await any good-faith attempts to justify comparing Trump's wife to a sex doll. Or perhaps the assertion that Chris Christie has a fetish for overweight women. Gamaliel resigned as an arbitrator and administrator in no small part because of referring to Trump's hands as being small. This goes so far beyond that. This is the worst BLP violation I have ever seen, by far, and it targets many of individuals. It is nothing short of an attack page. As for those saying this should have been resolved through discussion, I would agree with you, if not for the extremely long and detailed discussion on EEng's talk page, which he summarily ignored, deleting no content whatsoever. At the very least, a topic ban from modern American politics is necessary. I would restrict it to the Trump family if not for the plethora of other politicians targeted on this user page. ~ Rob₁₃ 23:23, 16 November 2016 (UTC) @JzG: If you truly believe this is an instance of WP:CRYBLP, would you please affirmatively state that you see no BLP issues with comparing Trump's wife to a sex doll, calling Trump's son a "chip off the old pussy", and stating that Chris Christie has a fetish for overweight women? ~ Rob₁₃ 23:53, 16 November 2016 (UTC) @K.e.coffman: Please cite the reliable sources that reported the three things I listed above or explain how they do not fall afoul of BLP despite being obviously inflammatory statements about living people. ~ Rob₁₃ 00:20, 17 November 2016 (UTC) @K.e.coffman: These were not, in any way, the only statements. There were headings upon headings dedicated to this stuff, and I haven't even picked out the worst ones, as the worst ones should be left buried. This made up well over half of the page. EEng was spoken to and refused to remove the content, as I linked above. I have to wonder why you're leaping to the defense of alleged serious BLP violations that you haven't actually seen. Isn't that a recipe for disaster? I can tell you that about half a dozen experienced administrators looked this over in IRC before this was deleted, and there was universal horror at just how bad the content was. This was described by administrators who have worked in this topic area for over half a decade as the worst BLP violation they've seen, bar none, in years. Does that not give you some pause to think that, perhaps, we aren't just spouting off about nothing, given that you haven't seen the page in its entirety? ~ Rob₁₃ 00:36, 17 November 2016 (UTC) @EEng: It's a bit silly to advance a second substantive argument when the first remains unanswered. When someone can tell me seriously that they see no BLP violations in the three examples I highlighted, I'll consider advancing other substantive arguments, which probably will consist of the even worse examples that I'm making an effort not to repeat anywhere. (Or perhaps I'll advance something new when someone can explain to me why non-admins, who have never seen the content in question and are unable to now, feel qualified to confidently exclaim that no violation exists). And as a procedural matter, you're always welcome to leave good jokes in my section. ~ Rob₁₃ 08:14, 17 November 2016 (UTC) You've presented three opinion pieces written in the first person as evidence that this isn't a BLP violation? Stunning. I would be fine with a topic ban from modern American politics in the userspace, if you prefer that narrower scope. ~ Rob₁₃ 09:28, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by Softlavender I don't see any talk-page discussion with EEng about any concerns regarding his userpage: . As of this writing, I do not see any WP:CONSENSUS here that the userpage should have been deleted. I do not see any WP:MFD filed on the page. The Wordsmith deleted it as WP:G10, G10. Pages that disparage, threaten, intimidate, or harass their subject or some other entity, and serve no other purpose (underscoring mine), which it clearly wasn't. Above he states "I've summarily deleted the page as per policy and in keeping with Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff#Summary deletion of BLPs", but it is a userpage, not a BLP, not an article, which the Arb ruling specifically refers to. Nor was there any discussion whatsoever on the matter before this summary deletion of this 113,000-byte humor page, which was mostly gentle humor about Misplaced Pages. EEng's userpage has been a source of blessed humor and relief from the frequent problems of Misplaced Pages for many many years. His page has 164 watchers , among them numerous admins. I agree with EEng above that: Wordsmith's unilateral deletion of the page in advance of discussion is obviously inappropriate, give that (a) as he explicitly points out, a large number of admins are aware of its content and do not share his concerns, and (b) most of the material on the page has nothing to do with his complaint anyway, yet has been thrown out with the bathwater. This entire deletion action was out-of-process, and the rationales applied for summarily deleting without any discussion whatsoever did not even apply. Moreover, there is no way for the community at large to adequately discuss the matter since the material in question has vanished. Consequently, I request a restoration of the entire page. If it then needs to be collapsed or blanked while discussion proceeds, fair enough, but we can't let this unauthorized deletion stand since it was clearly not done properly at all. Softlavender (talk) 23:32, 16 November 2016 (UTC) NOTE: I'd like to also point out that this does not belong at AE, because the deletion was not an Arbitration Enforcement, and the Arb ruling cited after the fact does not apply, as it refers only to articles. There is no ArbCom ruling that would justify this unilateral, undiscussed, un-tagged, un-notified deletion of a longterm 113,000-byte humorous userpage, mostly about Misplaced Pages, that happened to also contain some perceived problematic material. Softlavender (talk) 01:16, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by K.e.coffman Not sure if non-admins are supposed to comment, but the deletion seems silly. It's a humor page & most of these things have been reported in the press anyway. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:43, 16 November 2016 (UTC) Re: "a chip off the old pussy" -- hasn't Trump himself caused such terminology to be ever present during the election season? Can't see the context for other statements as the page has been deleted. If the OP's concern was these three statements this could have been discussed with the page creator, vs unilaterally blanking the page or starting an AE case? K.e.coffman (talk) 00:23, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by Iazyges Frankly I don't know EEng very well, but his userpage sort of falls into the "All kinds of humor", his userpage is possibly unique in that it pisses you off, makes you laugh, and shocked, sometimes all at once. No crimes I can see here, but perhaps a bit of a recommendation on his terminology for the Trump family. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:17, 17 November 2016 (UTC) You've perfectly summarized the vibe I'm going for. E Eng 00:25, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by KrakatoaKatie I'm stunned to see the level of willful blindness displayed here by some people I respect. I am no fan of Donald Trump. I detest everything he stands for. But this is no 'gentle humor about Misplaced Pages'. This is pure attack, nothing less. We have, for example: The 'Museum of Donald Trump's Pussies', in which his wife, son, running mate, staff, and political rivals are included along with a photo of a cat as 'pussy he's actually getting' The 'Museum of Separated at Birth', in which we see photos of Trump with Mussolini, Hitler, and two different species of primates The 'Museum of In Case You Don't Believe In Reincarnation', in which we have more photos of HItler and Trump And there's more. The farther down the page you go, the more terrible it becomes. There's even a suggestion that Hillary Clinton was a dancer at Jack Ruby's burlesque club thrown in for good measure. That photo, to me, brings this squarely under ARBAP2 because EEng is using this page to make political statements about post-1932 American politics. I fail to see how this is humor about Misplaced Pages, or gentle, or anything less than egregious and willful attacks on living persons. You can say whatever you want about anyone in the privacy of your own home and among your friends. Misplaced Pages is not private and WP:BLPTALK applies here. Like Trump or don't like him, I don't care. But we cannot allow this kind of thing to stand. If we do, we're no better than we were before Badlydrawnjeff was decided in 2007. In case you weren't around then, we were really bad. Katie 01:37, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Comment by Mitch Ames The User:EEng page (eg at this version) violated WP:SMI in that some of the images appear over the top of the tools (navigation, search, interaction, tools) on the left side of the page, making those tools hard to use from that page. This is the case for both: Logged-in user, MonoBook skin, Pale Moon (web browser) Not logged in, so with the default skin, Firefox browser This is probably less important the other content issues mentioned above (eg BLP), but it is annoying, and contrary to the guidelines. Even if all the rest of the material was restored, I suggest that the `<div style="position: fixed; ... >` elements be removed. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:43, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Thought by Shock Brigade Harvester Boris It was fun, but you knew it couldn't last. In light of the global rise of authoritarianism it would be nice if there could be a safe space for freedom of expression. That's not the mission of en:wp but maybe it could be a WMF spinoff project. Just a thought. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:17, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Nothing new from Gerda It was fun, and not a Misplaced Pages article. If parts seemed offending they should have been commented out and discussed. Softlavender and Newyorkbrad explained well, I won't repeat. - When will my user page be deleted without discussion? It proclaims that I am a member of project Freedom of speech, and of the cabal of the outcasts. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:29, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by Ryk72 While I am not an Administrator, I did view the material in question prior to its deletion, and am satisfied that that deletion was the correct course of action. The page clearly met WP:CSD#G10, and the suggestion that the content was a "humourous" or "satirical" diversion, invoking the and meets no other purpose clause is a nonsense which should satisfy no reasonable person. As with the "Signpost" material which formed the basis of the Arbitration case earlier this year, Misplaced Pages is simply not in the business of hosting polemical political satire. If editors wish to produce and have published such material, they should make use of one of the multitude of webhosting sites available. To the suggestion that the material was acceptable because only one complaint was registered, this is also nonsense; it does not account for the editors who, like myself, viewed the material, considered it inappropriate, but also viewed the Talk page discussion, and correctly concluded that the sisyphean effort of raising objection would be a futile waste of time. The Wikilawyering justifications produced in this discussion further reinforce this. Delete, trout, move on. - Ryk72 10:18, 17 November 2016 (UTC) @JzG: It may well be a reasonable expression of opinion, it is not even close to being within the realms of what Misplaced Pages should publish. - Ryk72 11:02, 17 November 2016 (UTC) @Ritchie333: Respectfully, to draw comparison to Charlie Hebdo is disgraceful. - Ryk72 11:02, 17 November 2016 (UTC) @Ritchie333: It's clearly not a "freedom of speech" issue - no-one, to my knowledge, objects to the existence of the material, or wishes to constrain EEng from producing it - they object strongly to the use of Misplaced Pages to publish it. As for censorship, we explicitly censor ourselves to exclude multiple types of information, including, again explicitly, this type of information. Misplaced Pages is neither Private Eye nor Viz (not as funny as it used to be); neither are we publishers (other than for the purpose of documenting these topics) of erotica, pornography, propaganda or polemic, or anything else that might be found published in multiple places elsewhere. John Brown might be happy to publish cartoons of unfeasibly large testicles; Larry Flynt might publish many a satirical comic along with his more satyrical matter - we do not. If editors want to publish political polemic, they should do so elsewhere. - Ryk72 13:32, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by MRD2014 All those revisions got deleted, but have not been restored. I think the deletion was enough. The revisions of the page that were deleted were definitely violations of WP:NOTWEBHOST and WP:BLP, but the revisions that contained them have been removed, and I think we can just move on. —MRD2014 (talk • contribs) 13:36, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by Patient Zero KrakatoaKatie's analysis is spot on. I don't find the page particularly funny, and yes, it was a blatant BLP violation. Quite frankly I'm disturbed by the fact that administrators were praising the page. Patient Zero 13:52, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by Sir Joseph I agree with the deletion and most of KrakatoaKatie's assessment. The user page and talk page are also violations of policy and should be looked into. 🔯 Sir Joseph 14:41, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Result concerning EEng This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. I'm having a really, really hard time seeing BLP violations here. It's userspace, not the encyclopedia, and anyone reading that page and not understanding that its content is not meant seriously...well, I wouldn't know what to do for them anyway. Yes, BLP applies to userspace, but just like libel, BLP violations are only dangerous if presented in a way that someone might actually believe them to be true. I think deletion of the entire page was excessive, and if there was some part that was particularly concerning, that could've been better addressed by talking it over with EEng and, if necessary, asking the community for input. I don't much go for farting around in userspace myself, but if others want to, it's generally harmless. Indeed, things like that might help editor retention; everyone's got to blow off a bit of steam every so often. Seraphimblade 23:21, 16 November 2016 (UTC) @EEng: You may not be on this page too often (and if so, good on you), but please keep in mind it doesn't allow for threaded discussion in other editors' sections, because that just caused way too many problems before that was put into place. Please make any replies in your own section, and move any made elsewhere there as well. Seraphimblade 05:28, 17 November 2016 (UTC) This looks like WP:CRYBLP to me. Trump is a divisive figure and nothing in the deleted revisions shows anything beyond reasonable expression of opinion. If Wordsmith thinks it violates WP:NOTFORUM (a not indefensibel view) then WP:MFD is second door on the left. This is not, I think, an AE matter in respect of American Politics or anything else. Guy (Help!) 23:46, 16 November 2016 (UTC) One of the questions prominently raised by the Gamaliel arbitration case earlier this year, but not resolved by that case (perhaps because it is a policy matter), is whether a BLP violation exists where, outside mainspace, (1) statements are made about a prominent living person that would be defamatory if taken literally, but (2) the intent is satirical and no reasonable reader would take them literally. Perhaps a further consideration might be if (3) the statements are unusually graphic, or indelicate, or some would say crass. There are good-faith arguments on both sides of this question, and perhaps the (über-serious) discussion of April Fools jokes that took place earlier this year could have discussed the broader question. (My own passing comment at the time was, "non-mainspace humor has its place in Misplaced Pages, as part of the friendly comeraderie and shared experience of editing that sustains the community—but when an attempt at humor causes widespread dissension and unhappiness among one's colleagues and becomes a distraction, the humorist should reconsider whether it is serving its purpose, whether it is or recently was April 1 or any other day. This is not a call for self-censorship per se, but for common sense.") Regarding today's developments, I am actually pleased to see a situation in which administrators and editors are acting out of principle and with good faith on all sides. A compromise seems to be working out, under which the userpage is being restored without the most disputatious of the material, and I'd be happy to see this matter resolved, without further action against anyone, on that basis. (Cross-posting this to AN also.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:39, 17 November 2016 (UTC) @EEng: You are right that my quotation of my comment from six months ago is from a different context and was not meant to describe today's. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:04, 17 November 2016 (UTC) I can't see how simply deleting this entire massive user page without discussion could possibly have been the right move or could possibly have just ended without all this drama. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:54, 17 November 2016 (UTC) I try to stay away, as a rule, from EEng's talk and user page--they are too big for my caches to handle. Yes, BLP violation; sure, massive; yes, in pretty good spirits; OK, violation of NOTWEBHOST, all that. I absolutely agree with the deletion, and wish EEng the best. Drmies (talk) 02:47, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Je suis EEng. I like EEng's user page as it appeals to my sense of humour and contains nothing you wouldn't see in Private Eye or Viz which you can buy from most newsagents round here. If you are really concerned about harm to living persons, go and file a formal complaint to Twitter about some of the stuff Trump writes on his feed. I'll expand on this later after breakfast, but I see no breaches of the spirit of BLP whatsoever. Grow up. Ritchie333 04:12, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Okay, I'll expand a bit on what I'm talking about. One of the key discussions that led to the increase in importance in BLP around ten years ago was this, and a principal problem is that by 2006, people were creating articles about people who really weren't all that famous. The reason BLP is important is because Misplaced Pages is likely to be the most viewed website and source of information about not-particularly-famous people, so it's important to get things right. However, like all things, it is possible to over-apply BLP in the wrong direction; if you go too far you end up with the cult of Kim Il Sung who can never do anything wrong, period. I'm prepared to believe that Donald Trump is the most famous person on this entire planet right now, so of everyone in the world that the intent that led to BLP could apply, he's the least affected. People have been out rioting and demonstrating against him and calling him names all over the internet. Misplaced Pages puts reliably sourced criticism of Trump in his article, and doesn't violate BLP in doing so. Given that content, a user page that mocks facts that we already have on Misplaced Pages, not least in the standalone articles Legal affairs of Donald Trump, Donald Trump and Billy Bush recording and Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations and puts them in a humorous light cannot be a realistic violation of BLP. If you really are concerned about what EEng said, you should be more concerned about the three articles I just linked to and checking those for BLP. There's a further aspect to consider. We understand BLP and the CSD criteria, being the seasoned wiki-veterans that we are, but the outside world does not, and it only takes one person to put two and two together and get five, misinterpret a political motive to The Wordsmith deleting the content. After all, Trump is no stranger to wanting to sue and censor people that rub him up the wrong way. I can picture the Daily Mail running a headline of "Misplaced Pages cyber-bullies censor Trump opponent" (why let facts get in the way of a good story), maybe under the misguided assumption that Misplaced Pages and Wikileaks are somehow related, if it would be a good story that sells lots of papers. Or perhaps OurMine, who don't seem to be fans of Trump (and who can blame them) will decide that The Wordsmith is the next admin account that's worth having a crack at, being an obvious Trump loyalist. Is this really a risk we want Misplaced Pages to take? Ritchie333 11:14, 17 November 2016 (UTC) @Ryk72: I didn't make a comparison to Charlie Hebdo, I made a comparison to freedom of speech and lack of censorship. I also made a comparison to Private Eye and Viz, and if you read any issue of those two journals, you will discover that what occurs on Misplaced Pages is mild in comparison. Or, indeed, watch any old episode of Spitting Image - most reasonable people would not seriously believe Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother was a gin-drinking gambling alcoholic with a Brummie accent. Ritchie333 11:18, 17 November 2016 (UTC) @Tide rolls: "Grow up" was not directed at you (I don't think I've seen any comment from you that is a problem whatsoever) and I apologise if you thought it was. Rather, it was exasperation that we had to come here and to WP:AN instead of just having a quiet word on EEng's talk or email, which could have resolved the whole situation more amicably. That's all. Incidentally, the problem reported here has been (at least partially) resolved at Commons. Ritchie333 17:05, 17 November 2016 (UTC) I concur with the deletion, as at the very least the page was a massive violation of NOTWEBHOST. I found it slightly amusing in the way fart and dick jokes are slightly amusing, but ultimately I think what we put on our user pages ought to be of the same caliber as what you'd expect to find pinned to a colleague's office wall. I'm having trouble imagining a case for sanctions, though, so I'd rather close this and move on as long as EEng doesn't announce intentions to restore the page. --Laser brain (talk) 12:24, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Some elements of the deleted page were clear BLP violations; deletion was valid. If only as a courtesy blanking pending an MfD. Simply ascribing "humorous treatment" to what may be an actual occurrence is irrelevant. Anyone remember the Plaxico situation? That the BLPs were in user space does not mitigate the problem either. Grow up, Ritchie? Taking swipes at one's colleagues' maturity for their good faith efforts at maintaining Misplaced Pages policy does your position a disservice. My opinion may not hold up to the test of consensus, but I'm damned if it's immature. Tiderolls 14:01, 17 November 2016 (UTC) @Ritchie333:Thanks for that consideration. I agree that other options might have served the situation better but I doubt frustrations could be avoided no matter the path. Tiderolls 18:19, 17 November 2016 (UTC) I don't think the page was an appropriate G10 candidate and nominating it for MfD would have been a better course of action. However having this on a userpage was not a good idea and I think it would have been deleted if sent to MfD. I don't see any need for sanctions at this time and I suggest that the current situation is a satisfactory resolution. Hut 8.5 15:26, 17 November 2016 (UTC) I think we're all done here, aren't we? There's clearly no consensus to sanction EEng, which I quite agree with, and he's already agreed not to restore the contentious sections. I think everyone's got better things to do. Black Kite (talk) 23:47, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

There's no consensus that any sanctions should apply against EEng. While there is also not a consensus on whether the initial deletion was appropriate, the matter was later resolved through discussion, so it's rather moot at this point. No further action has been suggested or seems to be needed. There may be an indication that a wider community discussion is needed on what's acceptable in terms of "joke" and satire pages, but that's well beyond the scope of AE. Seraphimblade 06:22, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning EEng

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: The Wordsmith (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:15, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: EEng (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

User:EEng contained massive BLP violations (see below).

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months .

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Userpage contained massive, massive BLP violations, including calling public figures "pussies", extensive allegations of Donald Trump being a Nazi, snippets of speeches with things Trump rails against wikilinked to Jews, accusations of racism, antisemitism, and a whole lot that I could devote many paragraphs to. Frankly, it is the worst BLP violation in userspace I've seen in a long time. I'm baffled that it was allowed to stand for this long, with a number of veteran editors even applauding the effort on his talkpage and contributing to it. Aside from the obvious BLP, we also have WP:NOTWEBHOST and WP:UP#POLEMIC that this crosses the line on. I've summarily deleted the page as per policy and in keeping with Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff#Summary deletion of BLPs, but as I'm recused from AP2 enforcement I'm not going to take further unilateral action, and instead will bring it here for uninvolved admin input. The Wordsmith 22:15, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

@Iridescent: That "one section" spans roughly half of a very, very large page. It also goes back quite far into the history. The libel was bad enough, in my estimation, that a simple section blanking or RevDel was not sufficient to excise it. The Wordsmith 22:54, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning EEng

Statement by EEng

To show that Wordsmith has misinterpreted this material is impossible at the moment, since he's jumped the gun and deleted the page. But in brief (as explained on the page itself) my user page is meant to be a source of amusement for editors taking a break from the humdrum workaday cares of editing, and many comments on my talk page attest to its success along those lines. Obviously I would never seriously compare anyone to Hitler (except maybe Hitler, I guess) because that would be a BLP violation.
That the situation isn't nearly as clearcut at Wordsmith seem to think is well-illustrated by the fact that at least one editor was able to characterize me as "a Donald Trump supporter" .
Wordsmith's unilateral deletion of the page in advance of discussion is obviously inappropriate, give that (a) as he explicitly points out, a large number of admins are aware of its content and do not share his concerns, and (b) most of the material on the page has nothing to do with his complaint anyway, yet has been thrown out with the bathwater.

Those three points aside, since the election's now over and the amusement potential has drained from the situation, I'm happy to let the chips fall where they may, according to the community's judgment. E Eng 22:56, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

@Softlavender:: Thanks for the careful analysis. As mentioned before, I'll be happy to conform the page to the community's wishes. Unfortunately Iridescent's kind gesture in restoring a/o June 14 doesn't quite work, since other material was added/changed in the interim unrelated to the discussion here. For example (no kidding) because of a renaming of files over at Commons, the June 14 version's reference to File:Hooker, which used to invoke the moving devotional image File:Hooker's_Company_reach_the_Connecticut.jpg (and actually did so, on June 14), now points to the image seen at File:Hooker.jpg, causing the latter to be the one now displayed by the June 14 version, and thereby lending unintentional if not entirely unwelcome amusement. E Eng 23:43, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Breaching AE protocol by commenting outside my section, but for ease of reading... Unfortunately, if one accepts that the Trump section is libelous, than the intervening revisions can't be restored because they'll include the offending content. Provided you're happy to have me post it even though it breaks attribution, I can just manually paste the content of the page as of this morning, minus that section, over the existing page. ‑ Iridescent 23:47, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Just to nudge in here on a hop and a dash, and excuse my throwing-in of the towel, but the image of the young lady with the title "Hooker" may, in retrospect, be as much of a BLP violation as anything dreamed up in heaven or earth or on EEng's page, and probably should be renamed, like, right now, before she's solicited on the street by well meaning Wikipedians. Randy Kryn 00:52, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

That's a strange concern coming from someone named Randy. E Eng 01:15, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@Newyorkbrad:, One comment re your sensible criterion, but when an attempt at humor causes widespread dissension and unhappiness among one's colleagues and becomes a distraction...: I completely agree, but in this case, of the literally thousands of editors who have apparently visited my user page in the last six months there has been, to my recollection, exactly one objection registered -- which I resolved by making a change addressing the concern expressed. (Can't diff that edit since it's in the deleted part of the history.) Had there been more than that, I would certainly have rethought my approach.

I too am pleased this is being discussed so constructively (by most, at any rate). E Eng 01:00, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@Krakatoakatie: That you you are able interpret a certain photo + caption (or anything else, for that matter) as an actual "suggestion that Hillary Clinton was a dancer at Jack Ruby's burlesque club" (in 1963, when she was 15 years old) – much less that such a photo can possibly make "political statements about post-1932 American politics" – is emblematic of the serious clue-lack being displayed by a very (thankfully) few here. And there's no disputing that Trump really does look like Mussolini, and quotes him too. E Eng 04:27, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@BU Rob13: Re perhaps, we aren't just spouting off about nothing, given that you haven't seen the page in its entirety... well, perhaps, but then there's no way to know for those not members of the Sacred Congregation of the Index, is there? E Eng 11:45 pm, Yesterday (UTC−5) And, sorry I upset you by unknowingly breaking protocol – I'm new to AE. And I realize it must be frustrating that you're reduced to procedural quibbles rather than substantive responses.

@BU Rob13: Re your request , here are the three sources you asked for: Trump's wife vs. sex doll; Eric Trump vs. "pussy"; Trump's fat fetish (For the record I did not, as you claim, imply that Christie has a fetish for "overweight" women, rather that those attracted to heavy persons might have ample reason to find him alluring, which seems beyond cavil.) What you refuse to acknowledge is that this material qualifies under Newyorkbrad's very sensible test i.e. (1) statements are made about a prominent living person that would be defamatory if taken literally, but (2) the intent is satirical and no reasonable reader would take them literally (and that goes for the sources I just linked too).

As for your assertion that I "was spoken to and refused to remove the content", that's untrue. Some weeks ago concern was raised about one particular section and (~~though this isn't apparent in the discussion you link, and~~ as noted in the very discussion you link , though for obvious reasons I can't now supply a diff) I made an edit addressing that concern, which the OP apparently found satisfactory. Face it: thousands saw the page and found no problem, and even if, on consideration, it's best that the material be banished the idea that fanciful material only in userspace could lead to a topic ban is absurd.

E Eng 09:20, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@BU Rob13: Re , as already explained (above) the sources I linked underscore the satirical nature of the content, in keeping with Newyorkbrad's criterion. Now at this point I'll allow you to vent away without feeling the need to respond, since the outcome of this misbegotten thread seems clear enough, despite your hopes and dreams. E Eng 09:53, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@Ryk72: Re , you don't seem to have read very carefully the discussion you linked. Contrary to what you imply, what that discussion shows is that the one and only time someone raised an objection, after a brief discussion I made a change addressing that objection, and that was the end of it. So your reference to "the sisyphean effort of raising objection would be a futile waste of time" is nonsense.

The question here is less whether the material should stand -- perhaps it shouldn't, given that a significant minority find it problematic -- but the heavyhanded and time-wasting way this matter was handled. E Eng 11:27, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@Tide rolls: Re (I doubt frustrations could be avoided no matter the path), I don't know what makes you think that. Had someone merely asked, I probably would have deleted most or all of the section. I was planning to anyway – just hadn't got around to it. This has been an enormous waste of time and drama because some nervous nellie thinks the sky is falling. E Eng 23:31, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Floquenbeam

Meh. Won't argue with the deletion, but no sanction needed, I don't imagine EEng is going to reinstate it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:47, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Clarify: Per Iri below, I won't argue with deletion of the portion that Wordsmith finds objectionable, and I don't imagine EEng is going to reinstate the portion that Wordsmith finds objectionable. The rest of it can surely be left alone. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:52, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Comment by Iridescent

Looking at the page, you only appear to have a problem with one section, since everything from "Some Entertaining Diversions" onwards is just the straightforward stuff one finds on many userpages—not my cup of tea (IMO the principle of "the more images a user has on their userpage, the less likely their opinions will be worth reading" is generally a fairly firm rule), but entirely non-controversial. Why the need for a scorched-earth deletion rather than just removing the section you found objectionable? ‑ Iridescent 22:46, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

I've restored the history up to 14 June, which took all of three mouse clicks, and doesn't appear to include anything contentious. While I appreciate WP:ARBAPDS technically covers "all pages relating to American politics", in practice we've always allowed very broad leeway for people to make political comments pro-or-anti current politicians on their user and talk pages provided they're not grossly offensive to the extent they have a chilling effect on other editors; while I agree this crossed the WP:POLEMIC line I'd certainly not want to see any sanction here. ‑ Iridescent 23:05, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by User:Martinevans123

I've also frequently compared Trump to Hitler. I've even called him "Orange Hitler" a few times. It's a common problem. But you're saying that entire page was devoted to a BLP violation of that one individual? Does policy demand that the entire page is disappeared, without any request at all being made to the owner to delete the offending parts? A lot of time and effort went into constructing the jokes on that page and some of them were even clever and funny. It brought amusement to many people. I think you're risking a lot of editors seeing your enforcement as taking "a sledgehammer to crack a nut". Folks may even think you're a Trump sympathiser. I guess that's a risk you think is worth taking. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:56, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Can the word "plethora" include Democrat politicians? Or is such a suggestion "breaching AE protocol"? Yes, you are right, User:BU Rob13, Trump is no pussy. Martinevans123 (talk) 00:08, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Davey2010

IMHO the page hadn't contained any BLP violations and being totally honest this whole enforcement thing didn't need to happen either ... TW could've simply left a message and saved all our times being wasted, Userpage should be reinstated and TW should move on. –Davey2010 23:09, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by HBH

Comparing anyone or anything to Hitler is beyond the pale. Good work, Herr Wordsmith --Hillbillyholiday 23:13, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Did you know that poor Donald couldn't serve his country in the armed forces because of heel spurs? ... but, you know, something just doesn't seem to quite click with that story. Allegedly. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:22, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by BU Rob13

I'd like to see any editor assert, in good faith, that calling one of Trump's sons "a chip off the old pussy" is not a BLP violation. I also eagerly await any good-faith attempts to justify comparing Trump's wife to a sex doll. Or perhaps the assertion that Chris Christie has a fetish for overweight women. Gamaliel resigned as an arbitrator and administrator in no small part because of referring to Trump's hands as being small. This goes so far beyond that. This is the worst BLP violation I have ever seen, by far, and it targets many of individuals. It is nothing short of an attack page. As for those saying this should have been resolved through discussion, I would agree with you, if not for the extremely long and detailed discussion on EEng's talk page, which he summarily ignored, deleting no content whatsoever. At the very least, a topic ban from modern American politics is necessary. I would restrict it to the Trump family if not for the plethora of other politicians targeted on this user page. ~ Rob₁₃ 23:23, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

@JzG: If you truly believe this is an instance of WP:CRYBLP, would you please affirmatively state that you see no BLP issues with comparing Trump's wife to a sex doll, calling Trump's son a "chip off the old pussy", and stating that Chris Christie has a fetish for overweight women? ~ Rob₁₃ 23:53, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman: Please cite the reliable sources that reported the three things I listed above or explain how they do not fall afoul of BLP despite being obviously inflammatory statements about living people. ~ Rob₁₃ 00:20, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman: These were not, in any way, the only statements. There were headings upon headings dedicated to this stuff, and I haven't even picked out the worst ones, as the worst ones should be left buried. This made up well over half of the page. EEng was spoken to and refused to remove the content, as I linked above. I have to wonder why you're leaping to the defense of alleged serious BLP violations that you haven't actually seen. Isn't that a recipe for disaster? I can tell you that about half a dozen experienced administrators looked this over in IRC before this was deleted, and there was universal horror at just how bad the content was. This was described by administrators who have worked in this topic area for over half a decade as the worst BLP violation they've seen, bar none, in years. Does that not give you some pause to think that, perhaps, we aren't just spouting off about nothing, given that you haven't seen the page in its entirety? ~ Rob₁₃ 00:36, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@EEng: It's a bit silly to advance a second substantive argument when the first remains unanswered. When someone can tell me seriously that they see no BLP violations in the three examples I highlighted, I'll consider advancing other substantive arguments, which probably will consist of the even worse examples that I'm making an effort not to repeat anywhere. (Or perhaps I'll advance something new when someone can explain to me why non-admins, who have never seen the content in question and are unable to now, feel qualified to confidently exclaim that no violation exists). And as a procedural matter, you're always welcome to leave good jokes in my section. ~ Rob₁₃ 08:14, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

You've presented three opinion pieces written in the first person as evidence that this isn't a BLP violation? Stunning. I would be fine with a topic ban from modern American politics in the userspace, if you prefer that narrower scope. ~ Rob₁₃ 09:28, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Softlavender

I don't see any talk-page discussion with EEng about any concerns regarding his userpage: . As of this writing, I do not see any WP:CONSENSUS here that the userpage should have been deleted. I do not see any WP:MFD filed on the page. The Wordsmith deleted it as WP:G10, G10. Pages that disparage, threaten, intimidate, or harass their subject or some other entity, and serve no other purpose (underscoring mine), which it clearly wasn't. Above he states "I've summarily deleted the page as per policy and in keeping with Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff#Summary deletion of BLPs", but it is a userpage, not a BLP, not an article, which the Arb ruling specifically refers to. Nor was there any discussion whatsoever on the matter before this summary deletion of this 113,000-byte humor page, which was mostly gentle humor about Misplaced Pages. EEng's userpage has been a source of blessed humor and relief from the frequent problems of Misplaced Pages for many many years. His page has 164 watchers , among them numerous admins. I agree with EEng above that:

Wordsmith's unilateral deletion of the page in advance of discussion is obviously inappropriate, give that (a) as he explicitly points out, a large number of admins are aware of its content and do not share his concerns, and (b) most of the material on the page has nothing to do with his complaint anyway, yet has been thrown out with the bathwater.

This entire deletion action was out-of-process, and the rationales applied for summarily deleting without any discussion whatsoever did not even apply. Moreover, there is no way for the community at large to adequately discuss the matter since the material in question has vanished. Consequently, I request a restoration of the entire page. If it then needs to be collapsed or blanked while discussion proceeds, fair enough, but we can't let this unauthorized deletion stand since it was clearly not done properly at all. Softlavender (talk) 23:32, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

NOTE: I'd like to also point out that this does not belong at AE, because the deletion was not an Arbitration Enforcement, and the Arb ruling cited after the fact does not apply, as it refers only to articles. There is no ArbCom ruling that would justify this unilateral, undiscussed, un-tagged, un-notified deletion of a longterm 113,000-byte humorous userpage, mostly about Misplaced Pages, that happened to also contain some perceived problematic material. Softlavender (talk) 01:16, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by K.e.coffman

Not sure if non-admins are supposed to comment, but the deletion seems silly. It's a humor page & most of these things have been reported in the press anyway. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:43, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Re: "a chip off the old pussy" -- hasn't Trump himself caused such terminology to be ever present during the election season? Can't see the context for other statements as the page has been deleted. If the OP's concern was these three statements this could have been discussed with the page creator, vs unilaterally blanking the page or starting an AE case? K.e.coffman (talk) 00:23, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Iazyges

Frankly I don't know EEng very well, but his userpage sort of falls into the "All kinds of humor", his userpage is possibly unique in that it pisses you off, makes you laugh, and shocked, sometimes all at once. No crimes I can see here, but perhaps a bit of a recommendation on his terminology for the Trump family. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:17, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

You've perfectly summarized the vibe I'm going for. E Eng 00:25, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by KrakatoaKatie

I'm stunned to see the level of willful blindness displayed here by some people I respect. I am no fan of Donald Trump. I detest everything he stands for. But this is no 'gentle humor about Misplaced Pages'. This is pure attack, nothing less. We have, for example:

The 'Museum of Donald Trump's Pussies', in which his wife, son, running mate, staff, and political rivals are included along with a photo of a cat as 'pussy he's actually getting'
The 'Museum of Separated at Birth', in which we see photos of Trump with Mussolini, Hitler, and two different species of primates
The 'Museum of In Case You Don't Believe In Reincarnation', in which we have more photos of HItler and Trump

And there's more. The farther down the page you go, the more terrible it becomes. There's even a suggestion that Hillary Clinton was a dancer at Jack Ruby's burlesque club thrown in for good measure. That photo, to me, brings this squarely under ARBAP2 because EEng is using this page to make political statements about post-1932 American politics.

I fail to see how this is humor about Misplaced Pages, or gentle, or anything less than egregious and willful attacks on living persons. You can say whatever you want about anyone in the privacy of your own home and among your friends. Misplaced Pages is not private and WP:BLPTALK applies here.

Like Trump or don't like him, I don't care. But we cannot allow this kind of thing to stand. If we do, we're no better than we were before Badlydrawnjeff was decided in 2007. In case you weren't around then, we were really bad. Katie 01:37, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Comment by Mitch Ames

The User:EEng page (eg at this version) violated WP:SMI in that some of the images appear over the top of the tools (navigation, search, interaction, tools) on the left side of the page, making those tools hard to use from that page. This is the case for both:

Logged-in user, MonoBook skin, Pale Moon (web browser)
Not logged in, so with the default skin, Firefox browser

This is probably less important the other content issues mentioned above (eg BLP), but it is annoying, and contrary to the guidelines. Even if all the rest of the material was restored, I suggest that the <div style="position: fixed; ... > elements be removed. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:43, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Thought by Shock Brigade Harvester Boris

It was fun, but you knew it couldn't last.

In light of the global rise of authoritarianism it would be nice if there could be a safe space for freedom of expression. That's not the mission of en:wp but maybe it could be a WMF spinoff project. Just a thought. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:17, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Nothing new from Gerda

It was fun, and not a Misplaced Pages article. If parts seemed offending they should have been commented out and discussed. Softlavender and Newyorkbrad explained well, I won't repeat. - When will my user page be deleted without discussion? It proclaims that I am a member of project Freedom of speech, and of the cabal of the outcasts. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:29, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Ryk72

While I am not an Administrator, I did view the material in question prior to its deletion, and am satisfied that that deletion was the correct course of action. The page clearly met WP:CSD#G10, and the suggestion that the content was a "humourous" or "satirical" diversion, invoking the and meets no other purpose clause is a nonsense which should satisfy no reasonable person.
As with the "Signpost" material which formed the basis of the Arbitration case earlier this year, Misplaced Pages is simply not in the business of hosting polemical political satire. If editors wish to produce and have published such material, they should make use of one of the multitude of webhosting sites available.
To the suggestion that the material was acceptable because only one complaint was registered, this is also nonsense; it does not account for the editors who, like myself, viewed the material, considered it inappropriate, but also viewed the Talk page discussion, and correctly concluded that the sisyphean effort of raising objection would be a futile waste of time. The Wikilawyering justifications produced in this discussion further reinforce this.
Delete, trout, move on. - Ryk72 10:18, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@JzG: It may well be a reasonable expression of opinion, it is not even close to being within the realms of what Misplaced Pages should publish. - Ryk72 11:02, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@Ritchie333: Respectfully, to draw comparison to Charlie Hebdo is disgraceful. - Ryk72 11:02, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@Ritchie333: It's clearly not a "freedom of speech" issue - no-one, to my knowledge, objects to the existence of the material, or wishes to constrain EEng from producing it - they object strongly to the use of Misplaced Pages to publish it. As for censorship, we explicitly censor ourselves to exclude multiple types of information, including, again explicitly, this type of information. Misplaced Pages is neither Private Eye nor Viz (not as funny as it used to be); neither are we publishers (other than for the purpose of documenting these topics) of erotica, pornography, propaganda or polemic, or anything else that might be found published in multiple places elsewhere. John Brown might be happy to publish cartoons of unfeasibly large testicles; Larry Flynt might publish many a satirical comic along with his more satyrical matter - we do not. If editors want to publish political polemic, they should do so elsewhere. - Ryk72 13:32, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by MRD2014

All those revisions got deleted, but have not been restored. I think the deletion was enough. The revisions of the page that were deleted were definitely violations of WP:NOTWEBHOST and WP:BLP, but the revisions that contained them have been removed, and I think we can just move on. —MRD2014 (talk • contribs) 13:36, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Patient Zero

KrakatoaKatie's analysis is spot on. I don't find the page particularly funny, and yes, it was a blatant BLP violation. Quite frankly I'm disturbed by the fact that administrators were praising the page. Patient Zero 13:52, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Sir Joseph

I agree with the deletion and most of KrakatoaKatie's assessment. The user page and talk page are also violations of policy and should be looked into. 🔯 Sir Joseph 14:41, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Result concerning EEng

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I'm having a really, really hard time seeing BLP violations here. It's userspace, not the encyclopedia, and anyone reading that page and not understanding that its content is not meant seriously...well, I wouldn't know what to do for them anyway. Yes, BLP applies to userspace, but just like libel, BLP violations are only dangerous if presented in a way that someone might actually believe them to be true. I think deletion of the entire page was excessive, and if there was some part that was particularly concerning, that could've been better addressed by talking it over with EEng and, if necessary, asking the community for input. I don't much go for farting around in userspace myself, but if others want to, it's generally harmless. Indeed, things like that might help editor retention; everyone's got to blow off a bit of steam every so often. Seraphimblade 23:21, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

@EEng: You may not be on this page too often (and if so, good on you), but please keep in mind it doesn't allow for threaded discussion in other editors' sections, because that just caused way too many problems before that was put into place. Please make any replies in your own section, and move any made elsewhere there as well. Seraphimblade 05:28, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

This looks like WP:CRYBLP to me. Trump is a divisive figure and nothing in the deleted revisions shows anything beyond reasonable expression of opinion. If Wordsmith thinks it violates WP:NOTFORUM (a not indefensibel view) then WP:MFD is second door on the left. This is not, I think, an AE matter in respect of American Politics or anything else. Guy (Help!) 23:46, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
One of the questions prominently raised by the Gamaliel arbitration case earlier this year, but not resolved by that case (perhaps because it is a policy matter), is whether a BLP violation exists where, outside mainspace, (1) statements are made about a prominent living person that would be defamatory if taken literally, but (2) the intent is satirical and no reasonable reader would take them literally. Perhaps a further consideration might be if (3) the statements are unusually graphic, or indelicate, or some would say crass. There are good-faith arguments on both sides of this question, and perhaps the (über-serious) discussion of April Fools jokes that took place earlier this year could have discussed the broader question. (My own passing comment at the time was, "non-mainspace humor has its place in Misplaced Pages, as part of the friendly comeraderie and shared experience of editing that sustains the community—but when an attempt at humor causes widespread dissension and unhappiness among one's colleagues and becomes a distraction, the humorist should reconsider whether it is serving its purpose, whether it is or recently was April 1 or any other day. This is not a call for self-censorship per se, but for common sense.") Regarding today's developments, I am actually pleased to see a situation in which administrators and editors are acting out of principle and with good faith on all sides. A compromise seems to be working out, under which the userpage is being restored without the most disputatious of the material, and I'd be happy to see this matter resolved, without further action against anyone, on that basis. (Cross-posting this to AN also.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:39, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@EEng: You are right that my quotation of my comment from six months ago is from a different context and was not meant to describe today's. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:04, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

I can't see how simply deleting this entire massive user page without discussion could possibly have been the right move or could possibly have just ended without all this drama. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:54, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
I try to stay away, as a rule, from EEng's talk and user page--they are too big for my caches to handle. Yes, BLP violation; sure, massive; yes, in pretty good spirits; OK, violation of NOTWEBHOST, all that. I absolutely agree with the deletion, and wish EEng the best. Drmies (talk) 02:47, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Je suis EEng. I like EEng's user page as it appeals to my sense of humour and contains nothing you wouldn't see in Private Eye or Viz which you can buy from most newsagents round here. If you are really concerned about harm to living persons, go and file a formal complaint to Twitter about some of the stuff Trump writes on his feed. I'll expand on this later after breakfast, but I see no breaches of the spirit of BLP whatsoever. Grow up. Ritchie333 04:12, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Okay, I'll expand a bit on what I'm talking about. One of the key discussions that led to the increase in importance in BLP around ten years ago was this, and a principal problem is that by 2006, people were creating articles about people who really weren't all that famous. The reason BLP is important is because Misplaced Pages is likely to be the most viewed website and source of information about not-particularly-famous people, so it's important to get things right.

However, like all things, it is possible to over-apply BLP in the wrong direction; if you go too far you end up with the cult of Kim Il Sung who can never do anything wrong, period. I'm prepared to believe that Donald Trump is the most famous person on this entire planet right now, so of everyone in the world that the intent that led to BLP could apply, he's the least affected. People have been out rioting and demonstrating against him and calling him names all over the internet. Misplaced Pages puts reliably sourced criticism of Trump in his article, and doesn't violate BLP in doing so.

Given that content, a user page that mocks facts that we already have on Misplaced Pages, not least in the standalone articles Legal affairs of Donald Trump, Donald Trump and Billy Bush recording and Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations and puts them in a humorous light cannot be a realistic violation of BLP. If you really are concerned about what EEng said, you should be more concerned about the three articles I just linked to and checking those for BLP.

There's a further aspect to consider. We understand BLP and the CSD criteria, being the seasoned wiki-veterans that we are, but the outside world does not, and it only takes one person to put two and two together and get five, misinterpret a political motive to The Wordsmith deleting the content. After all, Trump is no stranger to wanting to sue and censor people that rub him up the wrong way. I can picture the Daily Mail running a headline of "Misplaced Pages cyber-bullies censor Trump opponent" (why let facts get in the way of a good story), maybe under the misguided assumption that Misplaced Pages and Wikileaks are somehow related, if it would be a good story that sells lots of papers. Or perhaps OurMine, who don't seem to be fans of Trump (and who can blame them) will decide that The Wordsmith is the next admin account that's worth having a crack at, being an obvious Trump loyalist. Is this really a risk we want Misplaced Pages to take? Ritchie333 11:14, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@Ryk72: I didn't make a comparison to Charlie Hebdo, I made a comparison to freedom of speech and lack of censorship. I also made a comparison to Private Eye and Viz, and if you read any issue of those two journals, you will discover that what occurs on Misplaced Pages is mild in comparison. Or, indeed, watch any old episode of Spitting Image - most reasonable people would not seriously believe Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother was a gin-drinking gambling alcoholic with a Brummie accent. Ritchie333 11:18, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@Tide rolls: "Grow up" was not directed at you (I don't think I've seen any comment from you that is a problem whatsoever) and I apologise if you thought it was. Rather, it was exasperation that we had to come here and to WP:AN instead of just having a quiet word on EEng's talk or email, which could have resolved the whole situation more amicably. That's all. Incidentally, the problem reported here has been (at least partially) resolved at Commons. Ritchie333 17:05, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

I concur with the deletion, as at the very least the page was a massive violation of NOTWEBHOST. I found it slightly amusing in the way fart and dick jokes are slightly amusing, but ultimately I think what we put on our user pages ought to be of the same caliber as what you'd expect to find pinned to a colleague's office wall. I'm having trouble imagining a case for sanctions, though, so I'd rather close this and move on as long as EEng doesn't announce intentions to restore the page. --Laser brain (talk) 12:24, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
Some elements of the deleted page were clear BLP violations; deletion was valid. If only as a courtesy blanking pending an MfD. Simply ascribing "humorous treatment" to what may be an actual occurrence is irrelevant. Anyone remember the Plaxico situation? That the BLPs were in user space does not mitigate the problem either. Grow up, Ritchie? Taking swipes at one's colleagues' maturity for their good faith efforts at maintaining Misplaced Pages policy does your position a disservice. My opinion may not hold up to the test of consensus, but I'm damned if it's immature. Tiderolls 14:01, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@Ritchie333:Thanks for that consideration. I agree that other options might have served the situation better but I doubt frustrations could be avoided no matter the path. Tiderolls 18:19, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't think the page was an appropriate G10 candidate and nominating it for MfD would have been a better course of action. However having this on a userpage was not a good idea and I think it would have been deleted if sent to MfD. I don't see any need for sanctions at this time and I suggest that the current situation is a satisfactory resolution. Hut 8.5 15:26, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
I think we're all done here, aren't we? There's clearly no consensus to sanction EEng, which I quite agree with, and he's already agreed not to restore the contentious sections. I think everyone's got better things to do. Black Kite (talk) 23:47, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Anonywiki

Request concerning Anonywiki

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Neutrality (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 02:01, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Anonywiki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBGMO and WP:ARBAP2

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

13:29, September 24, 2016: Anonywiki removes with the edit summary: "Rubbish. There is no 'scientific consensus' that GMOs are 'safe' period and neither could there be, the only consensus is that they are not inherently, necessarily harmful.)"
10:56, November 13, 2016: Anonywiki removes statement about scientific consensus on GMOs with the following edit summary: "RUBBISH"
11:47, November 13, 2016 less than one hour after being reverted by Snooganssnoogans, Anonywiki reverts with the edit summary: "I assure you that GMOs are not 'regarded as safe by scientific consensus"
13:02, November 13, 2016: after being reverted, Anonywiki changes "pointed out that they contradict the scientific consensus" to "alleging they contradict the scientific consensus...," despite the fact that several of the cited sources—including this article written by an academic who studies the rise of conspiracy theorizing—notes that the article subject "engendered GMO conspiracy theories...despite the overwhelming scientific consensus..."
20:11, November 16, 2016 after being reverted, Anonywiki again reverts with the edit summary: "Please check your reading comprehension. There is no 'unwarranted doubt' to alleging, 'pointing out' is false"
20:37, November 16, 2016: removes entire section, including 10 cited references, with the edit summary: "I'm sorry to say this, but these links are really all nonsense. They are all opinion pieces, they aren't proper news citations for the claim at all.)"

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

(Two blocks and multiple warnings from before 2010 are not mentioned, for brevity's sake and because they are too distant in time to be relevant)
September 27, 2010: Anonywiki blocked for personal attacks or harassment by Seraphimblade (72 hours)
October 1, 2010: Anonywiki blocked for disruptive editing and WP:POINT by John & Chaser (1 week, lifted one day later)
17:20, December 12, 2011: Anonywiki is warned by McDoobAU93 for making personal attack
16:31, 13 December 2011: Anonywiki is warned by Sergecross73 for making personal attacks
22:43, May 24, 2014: Anonywiki is warned by Daffydavid for 3RR violations & disruptive editing.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

11:04, November 13, 2016: warned via edit summary by Snooganssnoogans to "see talk page. this is under discretionary sanctions, do not revert."
12:44, November 13, 2016: given alert on user talk page about discretionary sanctions for both post-1932 American politics and GMOs
18:49, November 16, 2016: warned via edit summary by me of intent to pursue Arbitration Enforcement would be next stop if disruptive editing continued

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Anonywiki makes large-scale or controversial edits that change stable article content without meaningfully engaging on the talk page, even after his edits are reverted by multiple other editors.
Anonywiki routinely disparages other editors and their work in edit summaries (e.g., "check your reading comprehension"; "Rubbish"; "RUBBISH"; "all nonsense").
Anonywiki leans on his or her own authority, rather than on citations to experts/scholars/scientists, journalists, etc. ("I assure you that GMOs are not 'regarded as safe by scientific consensus'")
Anonywiki fails to cite to policies or guidelines in making wholesale removals of material, nor in adding/changing contentious material.
Anonywiki makes incorrect or misleading statements of fact — such as saying that references cited are "all opinion pieces" when in fact the sources cited include a detailed Washington Post news piece from a policy reporter and an analysis from a political science professor at the University of Miami who is the co-author of American Conspiracy Theories (Oxford University Press, 2014) — both of which directly and clearly support the proposition in the article.
Anonywiki's statement below that "there is NO SOURCE that states commentators 'pointed out she went against the scientific consensus'" is simply wrong (and typical of the tendentious editing and "I can't hear you" behavior of this user). See the following refs (all cited in the article, and removed by Anonywiki):
- Max Ehrenfreund, What Jill Stein, the Green presidential candidate, wants to do to America, Washington Post (August 2, 2016): "Her platform calls for a moratorium on GMOs in foods 'until they are proven safe.' A recent report published by the European Union reviewed dozens of studies of genetically modified organisms and concluded they were no more dangerous than conventionally bred strains. The American Association for the Advancement of Science agrees...")
- Joseph Uscinski, The 5 Most Dangerous Conspiracy Theories of 2016, Politico Magazine (August 22, 2016) ("Stein ... engendered GMO conspiracy theories, which claim that big agriculture and biotech companies are hiding the negative environmental and health consequences of farming and consuming genetically modified foods. This is despite the overwhelming scientific consensus that genetically modified food is safe to eat").

--Neutrality 02:01, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

21:02, November 16, 2016

Discussion concerning Anonywiki

Statement by Anonywiki

The claim is that commentators "pointed out she went against the scientific consensus". There is NO SOURCE that states commentators "pointed out she went against the scientific consensus".

It's just reading comprehension. Instead of coming up with a bunch of cliched "arguments" I suggest that's what the user should be more concerned about.

The "scientific consensus" claim is on very shaky ground, there are tons of scientists that state there is no scientific consensus. This was a compromise statement. User has no understanding of the issue. Hobbyists and dilettantes should refrain from making edits on such points that have specific scientific meanings and contexts that are clearly lost on them. Anonywiki (talk)

I am fine with the new wording. I didn't argue that currently used GMOs are unsafe and I don't see evidence that Jill Stein did either. If someone in the New York Times writes Putin is trying to rebuild the Soviet Union do we say "commentators have pointed out Putin is trying to rebuild the Soviet Union"? It's a distinct claim. It also depends on the context you are using "safe", coca cola and fries are "safe" but they aren't very good for you. I apologize if I was a bit hostile, which on re-reading I have to admit I might have sounded and in part may have been not assuming good faith. Anonywiki (talk) 00:34, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Tryptofish

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Genetically modified organisms. Sigh. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:14, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Anonywiki

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

The subject of GMO foods has caused trouble in the past, and making GMO-related reverts of articles of presidential candidates such as Jill Stein can cause a lot of uproar. Anonywiki seems very attached to their position. He has reverted an edit that put the following in Jill Stein's article: "Commentators have criticized Stein's statements about GMOs as contradicting the scientific consensus that existing GM foods are no less safe than foods made from conventional crops". The text that he thereby removed as incorrect seems consistent with Proposal 1 of the GMO RFC: "There is a scientific consensus that currently available food derived from GM crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food, but that each GM food needs to be tested on a case-by-case basis before introduction." This Proposal 1 represents the Misplaced Pages consensus view according the closers of the RfC. So it appears that Anonywiki's change went against the Misplaced Pages consensus on the safety of GMOS. In his above answer to this AE complaint Anonywiki says "Hobbyists and dilettantes should refrain from making edits on such articles that have specific meanings and contexts that are clearly lost on them." It looks to me that Anonywiki's crusade is running up against the conventional Misplaced Pages position as established by consensus in the RfC. If I thought there was much likelihood that Anonywiki would reconsider, I'd suggest waiting to see if he will promise to accept the results of the RfC in his future edits. Otherwise, a one-year ban from the topic of GMOs on all pages of Misplaced Pages seems justified. EdJohnston (talk) 21:22, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
I agree with EdJohnston. Aside from the RfC, references have been presented above which clearly do state that Stein's position is counter to the prevailing scientific consensus, so to claim that no such sources exist is a form of I didn't hear that. Anonywiki needs to understand that a widely publicized community RfC carries a great deal of weight, and that it will not be acceptable to just unilaterally go against it. That doesn't mean you can't argue that something different applies in a given case, but you'd need to establish clear consensus behind that before carrying forward. Seraphimblade 02:15, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
I agree with EdJohnston --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 05:11, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

AE appeal by User:Towns Hill

Declined. NW (Talk) 17:02, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED). Appealing user Towns Hill (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Towns_Hill 23:05, 18 November 2016 (UTC) Sanction being appealed Arbitration enforcement sanction 2 Administrator imposing the sanction EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) Notification of that administrator As the banning administrator, I am aware of this appeal. EdJohnston (talk) 06:14, 19 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by Towns Hill The original ban was imposed invalidly to begin with. It was hastily issued and based upon one editor's incendiary comment to an admin's talk page. I was never reported at AE and was not even given a chance to defend myself. I was banned on a comment of an editor who went on admin shopping and knew which admin would be more than willing to entertain his request because that specific admin has been mentioning distributing topic-bans on forums in the past. Towns_Hill 23:05, 18 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by EdJohnston I won't write up a new statement here, but I refer you to my comments in an AE just above, where the AE requester was asking for a block of Towns Hill due to a ban violation. EdJohnston (talk) 22:45, 20 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by slakr While I don't, specifically, remember the 1-month 1RR restriction I added a while back (as alluded to by Black Kite, below), nor the editor specifically—in my defence, it's been a busy year—I can tell just by what's happened since then that stronger sanctions would have been required. A topic ban due to repeated, continued disruption in the area would be justified. Furthermore, while it's encouraged that admins open a thread here on AE before taking controversial actions, uncontroversial actions, on the other hand, can forgo the WP:BURO of doing so. This, in particular, allows for swift action to be taken against single-minded editors that throw caution (and policy) to the wind. I feel that things like topic bans and 1RR restrictions are fairly toothless without continued action on the part of the editor and are therefore frequently within the realm of "uncontroversial" by-default when prior disruption has occurred or prior warnings have been issued. Worst case, they're easily overturned without any real sort of "black mark" on a person's "record" should they be appealed. If Towns Hill felt the topic ban was controversial or outright invalid, the correct approach would have been to file the appeal here before continuing to edit within (or anywhere remotely close to) the topic area. --slakr 23:34, 20 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by Mar4d As per my comment on the previous thread concerning TH, there were some reservations I had concerning the sanction. I do see that Towns Hill needs to improve as an editor. In particular, the talk page interactions and communication areas could do with improvement. Per my previous statement, I said I was willing to assist TH where possible because he was new. I do think TH has potential as a productive editor in his topic areas; the Kashmir topic was one area, as Kautilya3 agreed. In the short term, some roadmap could be helpful identifying how TH could return and edit in other contentious areas. It's not difficult if he adjusts to WP:BRD and other mechanisms. In the end, a sanction is not supposed to be punitive but preventive. I believe spending too much time over noticeboards sometimes has the opposite effect, and lessens productivity. Mar4d (talk) 09:11, 22 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 1) Statement by (involved editor 2) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Towns Hill Result of the appeal by Towns Hill This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. Towns Hill, any uninvolved admin can issue topic bans, blocks, or other sanctions per the Arb com ruling on India and Pakistan. There is no 'take it to AE' requirement. Unless you can show that the admin is an involved one, your appeal doesn't really have standing. --regentspark (comment) 13:35, 19 November 2016 (UTC) RegentsPark is absolutely right. AE is an area where potentially sanctionable behavior can be reported by non-admins, admins who are involved and so can't take action on their own, or uninvolved admins who want more opinions before taking any action. There is no requirement that an AE report be filed prior to sanctions being imposed; any uninvolved admin who sees a violation can impose a sanction for it right then and there. It also does not matter how they came to learn of that violation or if the admin previously issued warnings that sanctions might result. The only potentially valid appeals are that the sanction was invalid to start with, such as that there was no actual violation it was based on or the admin who imposed it was inappropriately involved, or that it is no longer needed to prevent damage and disruption. Since you've recently violated the sanction, I sure wouldn't be quick to believe it's no longer necessary. Do you have any evidence of the first scenario, that it was never valid to begin with? Seraphimblade 14:06, 19 November 2016 (UTC) Towns Hill was issued an ARBIPA warning in January after edit warring, then again edit warred on the same subject and was issued a final warning in March, yet continued to do so and received a block (from User:Drmies) and a 1RR restriction (from User:slakr) in April. Their talkpage is then a litany of 1RR and EW warnings until EdJohnston applied the topic ban in May, which frankly looked well overdue. Since then, Towns Hill has been again blocked twice for violating the topic ban, so complaining about the original imposition of it - which was perfectly within policy, the link they provide is routine discussion between admins - is ridiculous. This request has no merit. Black Kite (talk) 21:08, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Declined. NW (Talk) 17:02, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Towns Hill (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Towns_Hill 23:05, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed: Arbitration enforcement sanction 2

Administrator imposing the sanction: EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: As the banning administrator, I am aware of this appeal. EdJohnston (talk) 06:14, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Towns Hill

Towns_Hill 23:05, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

I won't write up a new statement here, but I refer you to my comments in an AE just above, where the AE requester was asking for a block of Towns Hill due to a ban violation. EdJohnston (talk) 22:45, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by slakr

While I don't, specifically, remember the 1-month 1RR restriction I added a while back (as alluded to by Black Kite, below), nor the editor specifically—in my defence, it's been a busy year—I can tell just by what's happened since then that stronger sanctions would have been required. A topic ban due to repeated, continued disruption in the area would be justified. Furthermore, while it's encouraged that admins open a thread here on AE before taking controversial actions, uncontroversial actions, on the other hand, can forgo the WP:BURO of doing so. This, in particular, allows for swift action to be taken against single-minded editors that throw caution (and policy) to the wind. I feel that things like topic bans and 1RR restrictions are fairly toothless without continued action on the part of the editor and are therefore frequently within the realm of "uncontroversial" by-default when prior disruption has occurred or prior warnings have been issued. Worst case, they're easily overturned without any real sort of "black mark" on a person's "record" should they be appealed. If Towns Hill felt the topic ban was controversial or outright invalid, the correct approach would have been to file the appeal here before continuing to edit within (or anywhere remotely close to) the topic area. --slakr 23:34, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Mar4d

As per my comment on the previous thread concerning TH, there were some reservations I had concerning the sanction. I do see that Towns Hill needs to improve as an editor. In particular, the talk page interactions and communication areas could do with improvement. Per my previous statement, I said I was willing to assist TH where possible because he was new. I do think TH has potential as a productive editor in his topic areas; the Kashmir topic was one area, as Kautilya3 agreed. In the short term, some roadmap could be helpful identifying how TH could return and edit in other contentious areas. It's not difficult if he adjusts to WP:BRD and other mechanisms. In the end, a sanction is not supposed to be punitive but preventive. I believe spending too much time over noticeboards sometimes has the opposite effect, and lessens productivity. Mar4d (talk) 09:11, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Towns Hill

Result of the appeal by Towns Hill

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Towns Hill, any uninvolved admin can issue topic bans, blocks, or other sanctions per the Arb com ruling on India and Pakistan. There is no 'take it to AE' requirement. Unless you can show that the admin is an involved one, your appeal doesn't really have standing. --regentspark (comment) 13:35, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
RegentsPark is absolutely right. AE is an area where potentially sanctionable behavior can be reported by non-admins, admins who are involved and so can't take action on their own, or uninvolved admins who want more opinions before taking any action. There is no requirement that an AE report be filed prior to sanctions being imposed; any uninvolved admin who sees a violation can impose a sanction for it right then and there. It also does not matter how they came to learn of that violation or if the admin previously issued warnings that sanctions might result. The only potentially valid appeals are that the sanction was invalid to start with, such as that there was no actual violation it was based on or the admin who imposed it was inappropriately involved, or that it is no longer needed to prevent damage and disruption. Since you've recently violated the sanction, I sure wouldn't be quick to believe it's no longer necessary. Do you have any evidence of the first scenario, that it was never valid to begin with? Seraphimblade 14:06, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
Towns Hill was issued an ARBIPA warning in January after edit warring, then again edit warred on the same subject and was issued a final warning in March, yet continued to do so and received a block (from User:Drmies) and a 1RR restriction (from User:slakr) in April. Their talkpage is then a litany of 1RR and EW warnings until EdJohnston applied the topic ban in May, which frankly looked well overdue. Since then, Towns Hill has been again blocked twice for violating the topic ban, so complaining about the original imposition of it - which was perfectly within policy, the link they provide is routine discussion between admins - is ridiculous. This request has no merit. Black Kite (talk) 21:08, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

SilentResident

Request concerning SilentResident

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: DevilWearsBrioni (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:19, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: SilentResident (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBMAC

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

SilentResident has for the past few months fought tooth and nail to get me banned by casting aspersions. Her rants, mainly against the undersigned, include condescending lectures, self-victimisation, wikilawyering, temper tantrums, and personal attacks ("I recommend you come back to your senses", "you need to come back to your senses", "Being stubborn is not a positive trait", "you're not an honest person" <- later removed). She has successfully conned editors into believing her lies and half truths by pestering various talk pages with lengthy posts about my character and supposed motives. For example, SilentResident recently explained to Anthony_Appleyard following her tirades at Formal Mediation that "resorting to a mere third ARBMAC warning against the editor DevilWearsBrioni will do nothing, because he has already ignored any of the previous ARBMAC warnings". When Anthony_Appleyard subsequently filed a vexatious report against me at AN/I, he repeated SilentResident's falsehoods almost verbatim.

SilentResident had previously filed a report against me at AN/I, notifying two editors she knew were on "her side" in one of her pile on attempts. SilentResident's mudslingings also include blatant distortions, e.g. "acting against established consensus" and the allegation that I have on multiple occasions broken the 3RR, a fabrication she just recently repeated when she told Anthony_Appleyard that I have resumed "with new 3RR breaches".

She has made questionable insinuations about me, which in light of her own statements are quite ironic. She vehemently opposes the inclusion of "ethnic cleansing" anywhere in the Expulsion of Cham Albanians unless it's followed/preceded by "according to some scholars", even though it's been classified as "ethnic cleansing" by several experts, including Mark Mazower. SilentResident discredits their expertise as "more their opinion than something proven" and "that is the opinion of the scholars, not a fact". She resorts to distortions (she implies it's the opinion of "2-3 scholars" when I in fact had presented her with 7) and Wikilawyering. SilentResident quotes material from a Greek propaganda book to demonstrate that there are opposing views. She shamelessly adopts a reductionist rhetoric similar to that of Greek nationalists:

"The Expulsion of Cham Albanians is about a minority that betrayed, fought and occupied its own country for 3 years"
"Since the Cham Albanians weren't expelled on fly, but as result of their traitorous actions, there is no solid consensus among scholars".

She recently made a outburst about me in a passive-aggressive manner, telling an editor: "please, being a little bit more careful in front of him, without underestimating his stubbornness, couldn't hurt." . She is still actively trying to influence Anthony_Appleyard and she has recently begun to refer to me as "the filibuster" in her interactions with other editors. When SilentResident, in a discussion with another editor, is on the receiving end of almost every allegation that she herself has accused me of, she responds aggressively and requests an apology: The flagrant hypocrisy is astonishing. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 22:19, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: Whereas SilentResident continues to cast aspersions on various talk pages, God forbid I actually defend myself on the appropriate page!

@Robert McClenon: Are you saying that this is a retaliatory filing against SilentResident because Athenean filed a report against me? Moreover it's good to know that if someone were to tell you to "come back to your senses" you wouldn't think of it as a personal attack. Neither would you care if someone told you that you're "not an honest person" or that "being stubborn is not a positive trait". If an editor pestered various talk pages with lies about you I presume you would be fine with that too. Reporting that user would clearly be a case of harassment.

That is a very strong warning from an administrator. You mean the same administrator who filed a vexatious report against me at AN/I, reiterating some of the falsehoods SilentResident had told him? The same administrator that's also an emeritus member of the Mediation Committee but wasn't until very recently aware of the fact that mediation is privileged? The same administrator that's acting as an uninvolved administrator in this case and the previous one against me, even re-filing an erroneous report after the original by Athenean had been ignored and archived? Please excuse me if I don't rely on his judgement concerning my conduct. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 16:25, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

@Iazyges: Still waiting for an answer or are you still going to avoid answering any questions? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 09:29, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@Iazyges: You never answered any questions, you've just made evasive statements. Also, you can partake in the consensus process, but you don't "pick winners". DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 14:50, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@Iazyges: Great detective work there! How did you figure it out? Was it maybe the obvious clue I left behind? With regards to "It shouldn't have been filed at the DRN", that is not true. It would likely not have been opened to begin with if it was misfiled. You are seemingly incapable of admitting that you were wrong. Here's what you wrote at AN/I: "He appears entirely unable to accept the decision I ruled, I removed his OR tag after it had been made abundantly clear to him it was not OR". By the way, thank you for brining light to some of my older contributions, which I'm quite proud of. This is how the articled looked like before my involvement, compared to after. Keep digging though, maybe you'll find something.

@Iazyges: You're a) not uninvolved and b) not an admin. Please keep your statements to your own section.

@Iazyges: I recently explained to you that you should keep your statements to your own section because you had made a statement under "Result concerning SilentResident" even though it clearly says below: "This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above." Does that make sense? It's understandable that you don't like me, after all, I've questioned your competence. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 17:04, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

@SilentResident: Wouldn't it be easier to substantiate allegations such as 3RR breaches and NPOV violations instead of bringing up stuff from almost a year ago? I was indeed blocked, but my block was subsequently lifted which you conveniently fail to mention. What's worth noting is that I started editing on Misplaced Pages on 17 December and was warned by an editor on 18 December, contrary to Please don't bite the newcomers guideline. I mistook the warning editor for a mod/admin, hence my (over)reaction which I now regret: I referred him to "Alexikoua's mod friend" and accused him of "taking sides". Curiously though, the warning editor later conceded, in light of the evidence I presented, that I may have been right regarding some of the concerns I raised. Now that we've discussed my "troubled history", let's discuss yours! Last year an admin left a message on your talk page, telling you: "Fuck it, I'm sick and tired of you. When will you finally learn to bloody fucking first go to a talkpage and make an effort to understand people's objections before you start revert-warring?" (ouch!). You were also warned for edit warring by another admin, who also filed a report against you at AN/I. Both cases in relation to edits you had made on ARBMAC-protected articles. What does this say about you?

@SilentResident: First of all, it doesn't matter whether you think you were right. You could in fact be right and there could still be a consensus against your edits. Second, you've claimed that I've broken the 3RR, but the only evidence you've provided are the warnings by Alexikoua and yourself on my talk page. Don't you find it hypocritical to accuse me of "3RR breaches" by pointing to the warnings on my talk page while you're brushing off the warnings on your talk page as "mistakes"? How come, when given the opportunity, you don't provide the necessary diffs to prove that I've actually broken the 3RR?

@Athenean: I see that you've recycled some of the stuff from your frivolous AE report which was a huge waste of the community's time and summarily dismissed. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 18:19, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

@Athenean: Strong warnings by whom? By the way, how many drama cases have you been involved in? What did your attacks against VM and MVBW result in? If one were to look through your history, what would one find? Continuous drama with Albanian editors perhaps? An AE report where you and Alexikoua were referred to as a "travelling circus" by an admin? Wait, so it's no coincidence that you came to Alexikoua's rescue after he had reverted me on the false pretense of a supposed consensus? Would you mind clarifying about this supposed consensus that caused you to revert me?

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 28 September, 2015, 15 August, 2016, 25 October, 2016.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning SilentResident

Statement by SilentResident

Like with many other editors, admins and mediators out there, I already tried very hard and very patiently for many months to reason with the editor DevilWearsBrioni, who has caused a 10 month-long disruption in ARBMAC-protected articles in Misplaced Pages; even getting myself to the point of repeatedly reminding him about Misplaced Pages's rules and principles, even when the rules suggest that sanctions to be applied to them instead of spending more time cleaning up their mistakes and educating them about policies and guidelines. I hoped he could listen to the people and give up on his stubbornness and finally contribute positively to the Misplaced Pages project without stirring more debates, grievance and disruption, but, I am very saddened now, because his AE report against me has once more proved my worst fears about him: that he could not. No matter what, talks after talks, warnings after warnings, mediations after mediations, he is not willing to be reasoned with, nor drop the stick, and insist with his personal perception of Misplaced Pages's rules. This is unfortunate, as the admins have already sent him a warning and blocked him in the past for his disruptions: .

Unfortunately, such a move against me proves once again what happens when persistent disruption is ignored and not tackled; and instead, is tolerated. Given his stubbornness, this AE report was expected and, frankly, I couldn't be surprised if he makes similar moves against the other editors too once he is done with me. I am sorry to say this, but it appears that he has taken his defeat in the OR/SYNTH case very personally, which is no good. -- SILENTRESIDENT 23:33, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

@Resnjari: Really could you go as far as to equate an editor who was a long-time member of the Wikicommunity, who contributed to the project, has never been sanctioned previously, is trying to do the right thing, didn't hesitate to communicate with every goodwill editors around and ask for their advises on resolving the difficult dispute, with an editor who has caused disruption on ARBMAC-protected articles, turned deaf ears to everyone's advises, filibustered, violated constantly the rules and even got himself sanctioned & into troubles already from the very first days of his young editorial life? And this equation because you want to defend the filler with whom you share certain POVs? Even when he could go to great extends to force his opinion on others at the expense of Misplaced Pages's rules, norms and principles, and where he does not succeed, to take revenge on others, such as me, through this ill-intended AE report? That's unreasonable. -- SILENTRESIDENT 17:58, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@Resnjari: You are arguing that "DevilWearsBrioni has not been sanctioned", but, in fact, he has, in 2015, as an anonymous user with IP:37.46.188.80. Diff provided: . Perhaps you would argue now that the user:DevilWearsBrioni and user:37.46.188.80 are not the same person, but I am afraid they are. If you look more carefully here: where DWB, by himself, added a direct link taking you from his old user page to his new user page. As you see, the user:DevilWearsBrioni and user:37.46.188.80 are one and the same person and he has already been sanctioned for disruption on ARBMAC-protected Albanian-topic articles. -- SILENTRESIDENT 10:46, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@DevilWearsBrioni:, your accusations against me once again lack credibility. Let me highlight the facts to you:

Answer 1: The Admin who said "Fuck it, I'm sick and tired of you." to me, unfortunately, was wrong here, as he has tried to remove the name "Eastern Roman Empire" from the article Byzantine Empire's lead, in violation of the Misplaced Pages's naming rules about commonly-referred names. As you can see on the lead, here (click), the name "Eastern Roman Empire" has been permanently restored back on the lead, because the Wiki community shared my position that the commonly-referred names about that political entity should not be opted out. Like it or not, all the editors, including those with the admin rank, have to respect and follow Misplaced Pages's rules [both when it comes naming rules (i.e. East Roman Empire) and polity rules (i.e. use of offensive words such as Fuck it)).
Answer 2: You mention of an ANI report against me, but you do not mention that it has failed completely because the filler has counted my 2RR + self-revert falsely as a violation of the 3RR rule (self-reverts do not count towards 3RR). Thankfully, the uninvolved editors recognized the filler's mistake and backed me, which resulted to the failure of the ANI report against me and to the article's protection level being raised against anonymous IPs (it was an anonymous IP who edit warred here, not me), and no decisions for sanctions for disruption on ARBMAC articles were taken against me. Unlike you, dear DWB... -- SILENTRESIDENT 08:19, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

@Resnjari: Your statement that "user:DevilWearsBrioni is not your client and you are not his advocate", is not convincing. Your actions contradict your claims. You know, it is not only Robert who has this impression about you. It is me too and everyone else here, I am afraid. -- SILENTRESIDENT 11:12, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Iazyges

I must agree with silent resident, I am honestly beginning to wonder whether DWB is delusional, and no this is not an insult. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 23:51, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

@DevilWearsBrioni: I haven't answered because I've said it enough I sound like a broken record, but the reason I removed the OR tag is that it was clear it wasn't OR, you are right that a moderator doesn't "pick a winner", however I was brought a pick a winner case and fulfilled it to the best of my abilities. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 12:58, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@DevilWearsBrioni:, your right, I've never said that before:,. And I believe I have addressed the don't pick a winner things many times, It shouldn't have been filed at the DRN, the DRN is for bringing together editors to establish consensus, not deciding on OR, which incidentally has its own noticeboard. I at the end suggested Mediation, arbitration or appeal the OR, and Robert suggested a RFC. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:27, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@Athenean: You got me interested so I had a little looksie: He as of posting, has 792 live edits, 315 are article, and 239 are talk, of these:

Talk Pages:
- Expulsion of Cham Albanians — 105
User Talk:
- SilentResident — 18
- Alexikoua — 13
- Resnjari — 10
- Robert McClenon — 4
Misplaced Pages
- Dispute resolution noticeboard — 25
- Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement — 15
- Reliable sources/Noticeboard — 15
- Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents — 12
- No original research/Noticeboard — 10
- Neutral point of view/Noticeboard — 6
Misplaced Pages Talk
- Dispute resolution noticeboard — 16
- Requests for mediation/Expulsion of Cham Albanians — 40 (I don't believe the number of edits to it is covered by privilege of mediation but <s> it if it is.

Oh and an Interesting history of interest in Albanians always being the good guys. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 06:01, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@DevilWearsBrioni: can you confirm or deny if you are one in the same as User:37.46.188.80? Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 06:23, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@Resnjari: Nationalist isn't the right word, but he does seem to have an interest in Albanians being seen the good guys/ victims, that is undeniable. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 06:41, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@DevilWearsBrioni: Your desperate attempts to be the good guy, to be a poor, victim, is exactly why most everyone you have come in contact with don't like you, not because SilentResident is somehow manipulating us all, which I find very insulting, you seem to not believe that people could dislike you de tua virtute. I will request you withdraw your A/E case, as a show of willingness to follow consensus, as all, even Resnajri, are for the case being closed, and you being warned (or blocked), showing that you are willing to follow consensus may be good for you. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 16:37, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

@DevilWearsBrioni: Respectfully, what are you talking about? 1. I never claimed to be by speech or did anything that might impersonate one, and 2. I am in my own section, what are you on about? Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 16:44, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

References

Statement by Robert McClenon

This is clearly a retaliatory filing only. The only real question to be addressed is whether this filing should be dismissed with a very strong warning to the filing party or whether some sort of sanction is necessary against the filing party. A sanction against the filing party could be anything from a topic-ban on filings at AE and ANI having to do with the Balkans, to a topic-ban on the Balkans, to an extended block (but blocks are not punitive), to a site ban. At this time I would suggest that action is necessary, but that the least burdensome sanction would be a ban on User:DevilWearsBrioni from AE and ANI filings, to prevent further harassment. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:57, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

User:Resnjari writes: "The issues brought here regarding Silent are to be dismissed? If so then a dismissal regarding Brioni should also occur on his case." I don't see a case against Brioni pending. It is true that a case was filed against Brioni, but it was badly formatted and may have been removed. In any case, there isn't a case against Brioni. Whether this case should be dismissed should be judged on its own merits. I don't see any merits. I see an attempt by User:DevilWearsBrioni to send a message that editors who challenge them will be dealt with punitively; however, I don't see a substantive case against User:SilentResident. I will restate my original statement that one of the following is in order (1) dismissal of the filing with a strong warning (the case by SilentResident against Brioni having already been dismissed); (2) a ban against AE and ANI filings by Brioni; (3) a topic-ban on the Balkans by Brioni; (4) a site-ban of Brioni. I ask the admins here to propose some action. I suggest that (3) and (4) are too strong, but that (1) is too weak, and recommend (2). Robert McClenon (talk) 20:00, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive202#DevilWearsBrioni. The case against User:DevilWearsBrioni was archived. The list of archives only displays through 200, and the case is archived in 202; the problem is that the box showing the archives is too small. Can a clerk please expand that? In any case, this was clearly a retaliatory filing. If it wasn't meant to harass, it looks as if it was meant to harass. I suggest closure with a ban on the filing party against further filings. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:15, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

User:Resnjari - I agree that too much time is being wasted. However, at this point, since you appear to be DWB's advocate, it is your client who is wasting the time. Can you tell your client that vexatious litigation is an offense? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:46, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

I expanded the archive box so you can now see Archive202. EdJohnston (talk) 22:34, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

I certainly wasn't implying that User:Resnjari was being paid by User:DevilWearsBrioni. I said that Resnjari was acting as Brioni's advocate. As the dictionary shows, that is someone who is arguing the case for someone else. Any case against Brioni has already been dropped by being archived. This case is unwarranted and retaliatory. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:22, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

User:Resnjari, User:Anthony Appleyard - It appears that cases here, like cases at WP:ANI, are not always formally closed, but that if they are robotically archived without action, that is the end of them. If I am mistaken, someone will correct me. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:38, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

User:DevilWearsBrioni - Anthony Appleyard wrote: "Make an end of the business, and the sooner that DWB is blocked, the better." That is a very strong warning from an administrator. I suggest voluntarily withdrawing this case as a way of acknowledging the warning. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:56, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Resnjari

The issues brought here regarding Silent are to be dismissed? If so then a dismissal regarding Brioni should also occur on his case. The report filed here shows that Silent has engaged in certain behavior too of which Brioni is alleged to have done. All Brioni has done is place a focus on the other side too. Dismissing one while focusing on the other is problematic when the coin is the same on both sides.Resnjari (talk) 07:20, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@SilentResident:, Brioni has also not been sanctioned and has made contribution to very difficult articles in pointing out their deficiencies. I noted a example of this in the Fustanella page which was very POV before Brioni took time and effort to make it better. Your interactions with Brioni and his with you have not been dignified in any measure. In both your exchanges things have escalated in a tennis match of absurdities in the Chams article. Its why i said in the previous arbitration case that no one would come out of this clean and i stand by it. Either both of you get a warning or this gets dismissed for both. More time has been wasted on this than making attempts to resolve issues with the article itself.Resnjari (talk) 06:32, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Nonetheless of concern here is the pronouncement made by @Athenean, an editor who brought forth the case against Brioni. In a comment here he makes a very serious allegation that Brioni is an "aggressive Albanian nationalist". This is a very serious charge to make and has brought nothing to back up this claim (which resembles as an attempt at smear). This is a breach of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. The motives for going after Brioni at this point are questionable and veer more toward the area of settling scores. I cite this as a concern because of my interactions , with Athenean in the past who has used such language and has a problematic track record when interacting with other Albanian editors , which has earned him bans . I hope that this is not a repetition of that behavior. I also hope that his claim of "aggressive Albanian nationalist" regarding Brioni was not what he really intended and done instead in haste and urge him to withdraw that remark in the spirit of good faith.Resnjari (talk) 06:32, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@Iazyges:, one could make the same claim for Silent who used the words "traitorous actions" when there was attempt to remove peer received content regarding seeing the Greeks as good guys/victims and the Albanians as being at fault. Either both get sanctioned or none do and a strong warning for both (my preference for the latter). Regarding the Chams article its why i have called for mediation. This article whether its Brioni or other editors in future will cause this type of never ending time wasting because there aren't other to oversight the discussion which eventually would lead to a resolution.Resnjari (talk) 06:49, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@Iazyges:, You say again that Brioni interprets Albanians as the good guys and cite an example of this at the Individuals and groups assisting Jews during the Holocaust article. Apart from no other editor contesting Brioni's edits there in the article talkpage (or his talkpage), the additions he made to the article were based on peer reviewed material. He clarified the sentence that parts of Kosovo and Western Macedonia were annexed to Albania by the Avis powers (and not by Albania itself), then under firm Italian rule being annexed itself in 1939 . If that is somehow an issue, my goodness. Then the other edits he made on that page clarified things further. Within this enlarged Albania, the bit that still known today as Albania, Jews were spared and he cited that part accordingly using among other things peer revived material that meets wp:reliable and wp:secondary and other strong sources (for more see all edits: , , , . In Kosovo events went differently and that is not contested. As Albania and Kosovo are not one country today the scholarship on this matter treats the issues of Jews surviving or not surviving the war differently and literally their experiences were different in Albania and Kosovo. As such that is how the article is structured on the matter. Citing those edits as being in some kind of breach or of having an agenda about being "good guys" does not suffice otherwise the same charge can be made at many other editors, some who are participating in this discussion. I am becoming concerned as to where the discussion on Brioni is going where mundane edits are now being cited as evidence of supposedly something.Resnjari (talk) 06:05, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

@SilentResident:, on that matter about the IP and Brioni being connected, its the admin's call on how to go about this as i am not familiar with things on that part. I usually don't partake is this arbitration hearings, not my thing. Whether its pinned to an editor or considered separate when a person creates a account, not sure. Anyway this is a time wasting excersize. The energies of editors editing and discussing with admins acting as a conciliators for the Chams page would have been better placed there than in here. Many words, blame this or that, more undignified commentary which i am not comfortable with even on my part. This is very disappointing and the article still remains unresolved and will become one that is a blackhole (like for instance the Souliotes page used to be) and will cause more disruptions and this kind of rapport between editors.Resnjari (talk) 06:18, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon:, this is turning into farce or some soap opera resembling the US elections of recent times. If some of the editors here had spent their energies on making the article better with just a admin or two to act as mediator or a kind of referee the article might have been solved now. My preference is a strong warning (it being a final warning made very clear). With option two though not sure how long a ban would go in this instance. Brioni has edited ok in most other articles (and his editing got better over time) and made them good, difficult ones too. Not sure how to go about it. Something though needs to done about this. Taking too long and wasting to much time that can be put to use elsewhere. Best.Resnjari (talk) 20:15, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon:, i work alone and no one is my "client" or am i an "advocate". Any insinuation of the kind is uncalled for and does not build good faith. That i have crossed paths on a few articles where Brioni edits is due to his and my topical interests coinciding. I am participating in this discussion as editors have done and will continue to do. It is in the end a admin's call as to what happens. Best.Resnjari (talk) 10:05, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

@SilentResident:, my account on Misplaced Pages dates back to 2008, older than most of the editors active here in this discussion. I work alone and its why i am still here while many others are long gone. One should have in mind that personal impressions can also be interpreted as smear. As you have the right to participate in this discussion, i do too unless advised otherwise by an admin.Resnjari (talk) 08:27, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon:, its what vibe i got for your comment. I am not advocating for someone. Otherwise other editors involved here in the discussion could also be interpreted as being advocates too for a certain view. If Brioni's case has been officially dropped (an admin needs to close that) then should this one. On both i see no issue continuing because as i have consistency neither of the editors comes out clean. Too much time has been wasted while the Chams article still remains problematic and unresolved, time and energies that should have been devoted to that endeavour.Resnjari (talk)

@Anthony Appleyard:@Robert McClenon wrote that "Any case against Brioni has already been dropped by being archived". If its archived then there is no case for Brioni or is that still ongoing ? Some clarification on the matter. Best.Resnjari (talk) 08:43, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Mediation Committee

This is just a reminder to everyone that everything said or done on the mediation case page and talkpage related to this matter is privileged and cannot be used or considered as evidence in this application. For the Mediation Committee, TransporterMan (TALK) 02:38, 21 November 2016 (UTC) (Chairperson)

Statement by Athenean

I'm going to cut straight to the chase: DWB is an aggressive Albanian nationalist SPA whose main contribution to wikipedia is drama, lots of drama, and little else. Just a brief look through his recent contribs shows only two things: Endless filibuster at Talk:Expulsion of Cham Albanians and endless filibuster of every dispute resolution attempt of said article. And now this latest frivolous report. He has a history of filing frivolous requests against his enemies (both reports dismissed by the community), using colorful language and misleading diffs. His report here is in the same vein. Lots of colorful language, gross hyperbole ("temper tantrums"), aspersions, and lots of diffs that do not stand up to scrutiny (the old "diff-padding" trick - load the report with diffs, even if they do not stand up to scrutiny, in the hope of making it look hefty). Even more ludicrous are his conspiratorial assertions that SilentResident somehow "conned" Anthony Appleyard and turned him against DWB. Not only is this grossly insulting to Anthony Appleyard, it also shows an individual with a striking inability to acknowledge or even willing to consider his own faults. It is no coincidence that every user from outside the topic area that has interacted extensively with DWB (Iazyges, Robert McClenon, Anthony Appleyard) has found his behavior disruptive and asked for sanctions. And yet we are to believe that this is all a conspiracy orchestrated by Silent Resident? Alas, this is exactly the conspiratorial mindset typical of Balkan WP:POVWARRIORs that plague this area. Content building contribs by DWB are minimal to zero. It's all drama, all the time. This is in contrast to Silent Resident, who is a valuable contributor with many content building contribs . Any discussion in which DWB gets involved invariably ends up getting bogged down in endless wiklawyering, quibbling, hair splitting, and eventually a drama board. Seeing how this user contributes next to nothing but drama, I think it's high time for a ban from Balkan topics, or at a very minimum a ban from iniating (invariably frivolous) reports at AE and ANI. Athenean (talk) 05:42, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@DWB: I can imagine why you would be annoyed at me bringing up your history of filing frivolous reports, but bringing attention to it may not be the best move on your part.

@Resnjari: You keep repeating yourself, but DWB has already been strongly warned, many times, and any attempt to "better the article" at any article he is involved turns into an interminable flame war. We're already long past that point. Athenean (talk) 05:34, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by User:Alexikoua

It appears that all uninvolved editors confirm DevilWB's aggresive pattern: Frivolous reports both here and at ANI ] ], combined with forumshopping, reddit & off wiki activity (as he previously admitted) leave no doubt that this editor is not here to build an encyclopedia. It's also really sad when editors do not hesitate to launch edit-wars even against volunteers, as DWB did against Iazyges ]], ], ], ]. I'm fully convinced that this kind of large-scale disruption warrants a topic ban.Alexikoua (talk) 14:23, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

It might be reasonable to wonder if user:Resnjari has some kind of permission to post 6.000+ words here: x12 times the amount of text permitted.Alexikoua (talk) 21:12, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Result concerning SilentResident

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

@SilentResident, TransporterMan, Robert McClenon, Athenean, Resnjari, Alexikoua, and Iazyges: For your attention. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:34, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
@Anthony Appleyard: May I request a closing of the case, as it appears all active members (correct me if I'm wrong Resnjari) are for a close, except for DWB. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 02:12, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
@SilentResident, TransporterMan, Robert McClenon, Athenean, Resnjari, Alexikoua, and Iazyges: Make an end of the business, and the sooner that DWB is blocked, the better. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:19, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Doc9871

Request concerning Doc9871

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:59, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Doc9871 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

11/22 Telling other editors (in particular me) to "shut up" (misspelling it doesn't make it better). Compare it to this diff which is what led to Doc's original topic ban, and this statement by Bishonen (talk · contribs)
11/22 Discussing other editors instead of content, speculating about other editors motives and making groundless accusations. Making some kind of threat. Note that this is *exactly* the kind of comment that led to Doc9871's initial topic ban. He is just repeating it.
11/22 Discussing other editors instead of content. Doc seems to be more interested in insulting other editors than actually discussing article improvements. Note the edit summary.
11/22 More insults and incivility. Completely pointless and gratuitous too. Like, what's the point of this?

More minor, but indicative of the fact that the editor is WP:NOTHERE

11/22 Taunting other editors in edit summary
11/22 Taunting other editors (wasn't aware I lost any elections)

And for good measure

"Fuck off now". It's on his talk page, so by itself wouldn't be a big deal. But part of a pattern.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

8/1 Doc9871 was topic banned for 1 month from all pages related to Donald Trump. Furthermore, the closing admin, User:The Blade of the Northern Lights stated, reflecting admin consensus on that report, "(Doc9871) is further warned that any disruption in the topic areas covered under Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 will lead to an extension and/or broadening of the ban". The diffs above show that such an extension and broadening are needed.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 8/1 by The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) which was originally imposed by Bishonen (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) .

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Exactly the same problem as the one which led to his original topic ban. Almost like reading from a script. Doc9871 is incapable of discussing this topic without immediately resorting to insults and abusive language. This behavior derails productive discussion. It's also completely pointless as it offers no suggestions for article improvements. It's just gratuitous insults made for their own sake.

@Lankiveil - what "plea bargain" are you talking about? I just left a message on his talk page asking him to remove the personal attacks (like telling me to "shut up"). I actually dislike having to report people to WP:AE and try to give them plenty of opportunity to correct/revise/strike/undo. Is there something wrong with that? Hell, I get messages like that on my talk from admins once in awhile too ("you might want to reword that") Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:29, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Doc9871

Statement by Doc9871

It's not a "personal attack" to say that Volunteer Marek (VM) is heavily biased against the subject. There is absolutely no question about his anti-Trump bias. So how is it a personal attack to point this out? It's just a simple fact.
Statements like this show how VM, a very ardent anti-Trump editor, has been holding the article hostage for months, and abusing the process quite severely. It's not a "personal attack" to point this out. He claims that only things "central to the life of Donald Trump" can be included, yet when challenged on what is "central" he not only can't explain what that means, but instead suggests more, only negative, info that should be included. Please read VM's very pointed response more than once for traces of "incivility".
His assertion in the diff above that adding very reliably sourced material in the bios of the "goofy" celebrities who took to the media to announce they were leaving the U.S. would somehow automatically violate BLP should be of grave concern to every responsible editor here.
VM offered to let certain "personal attacks"... "slide" if I removed some statements (that were not personal attacks) to his satisfaction. Specifically: "All the insults and personal attacks". Nothing specific was mentioned that could have been reasonably stricken were there a concrete issue. As a reward, I would not be reported here. I don't do "plea bargains" when they are not warranted.
There's been absolutely no "disruption"; rather just a bruised ego. I've done some good work on the article recently; decent enough that I have been thanked for those edits by multiple editors, including admins. It's all there in the article history. This is a meritless, spiteful report. VM's claim that I am NOTHERE after nearly 9 years and 23,000 edits is similarly meritless.
Future Perfect at Sunrise: I did not come up with the "goofy" thing. That's why I keep putting it in "scare quotes". "The answer is that this is an article about Donald Trump. Not about some goofy celebrities." Those were his words, not mine. First he tried to dismiss it all as "textbook trivia", then we discredit the sources, then the celebrities themselves.
An indefinite ban as recommended by EdJohnston seems heavy-handed, as bans are to prevent disruption and not meant to be punitive. The last ban was for a month, and there's been no "disruption" until I dared to question VM's iron-clad notion of exactly what is UNDUE and "allowed" at the article. This has morphed from allegations of personal attacks into something else. I haven't done anything to any of the "goofy" celebrities' articles, gleefully or otherwise. The true disruption is that I'm a little too sarcastic for some at times, and I am supporting an unpopular subject. I admit I am biased for Trump, as that's obvious. I've not broken the rules here, but I expect to be punished for it anyway.

Statement by User:EEng

(Just happened to stumble on this thread since, ahem, this page recently came onto my watchlist...) I think it's important to bear in mind that editors need not be neutral, and it's OK -- even desirable, when you think about it -- that they reveal any biases in discussions. It's only their edits that need to be neutral.

If we only allowed editors free of bias, we'd have no editors at all, literally. E Eng 08:24, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by (uninvolved) Calton

Doc needs to read WP:NOTTHEM at some point. --Calton | Talk 10:57, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Doc9871

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

If it doesn't sound too pretentious, I'll "recuse" from this complaint, since I was deeply involved in the previous complaint against and sanction of Doc in August. Bishonen | talk 16:46, 24 November 2016 (UTC).
I'm looking less at the diffs about Doc's talk interactions with VM, but more at Doc's initial posting on the talkpage that sparked this latest altercation. His tone in gleefully proposing to stamp several BLP subjects ("bigtime celebrities") as "liars" (for not immediately following through with their declared intention of leaving the US if Trump won), combined with the way he's been speaking about them here ("goofy celebrities"), shows that his interest is not in creating fair coverage of the Trump campaign but in systematically discrediting his opponents. I'm not particularly impressed with VM's tit-for-tat counter-proposal of adding more coverage of Trump's misuse of Twitter either, but maybe that's another issue. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:33, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
After reviewing the last AE as linked by Bishonen, seeing the new complaint and noting the warnings issued by the other admins last time (User:Laser brain, User:Seraphimblade, User:The Blade of the Northern Lights and User:Lord Roem), I propose an indef ban of User:Doc9871 from the domain of WP:ARBAP2. It seems that Doc9871 behaves quite badly on talk pages and that behavior hasn't changed since the last time around. EdJohnston (talk) 17:54, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
User:Doc9871, do you have any diffs or other evidence that VM tried to make a "plea bargain" with you? If these events took place as you described them, I'd consider that a very serious matter indeed. Lankiveil 12:46, 25 November 2016 (UTC).

If I'm reading the diffs right, this is supposed to be the evidence for the "plea bargain" claim. I don't remotely read that as an attempted plea bargain, nor do I see how any reasonable observer could do so; it's clearly a notification by VM that if matters aren't resolved he's going to consider requesting formal action, not an attempt at a bargain. ‑ Iridescent 18:59, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

TheTimesAreAChanging

Request concerning TheTimesAreAChanging

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: MelanieN (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 02:44, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: TheTimesAreAChanging (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Nov. 21 Added a sentence to the article Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations.
Nov. 23, 00:14 Re-added the sentence after it was deleted as controversial. They quickly reverted themselves, but then
Nov. 23 00:16 added it back, describing the removal as "vandalism". This violated the prohibition against restoring controversial material.
Nov 21 removed longstanding material from Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016 as a "hoax"; not supposed to remove longstanding material without consensus.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Oct. 17

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

See their talk page for recent previous incidents/warnings:

User talk:TheTimesAreAChanging#Be careful about your editing at articles under Discretionary Sanctions from Nov. 5-7
User talk:TheTimesAreAChanging#Friendly Reminder (which refers to this edit of Nov. 22)

Reply to User:Soham321: You argue that it is better to warn a person than to threaten sanctions, and that a warning can allow the situation to be "easily resolved". I agree, and that is what I do, for a first offense. See the link just above in this section, where I did just that. The reason for this report is that the problematic behavior recurred after that warning. --MelanieN (talk) 16:59, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

User:Soham321, I hadn't noticed previously your "clarification" of items #1-3, which you seem to feel exonerates TheTimes. It was not necessary to cite here, although it may have been necessary at the time to clear things up for BullRangifer. Your explanation of what happened tallies exactly with mine. #1, he added something to the article: good faith, no violation. #2, he re-added it but immediately self-reverted, so again, no violation. #3, he then re-added it knowing it was controversial, and for good measure he described the previous removal of it as "vandalism", even though there had been a content-based edit summary with the deletion. Restoring content which had been challenged was a violation; arguably so was calling the removal "vandalism". Only after restoring the material (Nov 23, 00:16) did he start a talk-page discussion (Nov. 23, 00:55). (That discussion in itself is a piece of work, misquoting/distorting the edit summary that had been given for the deletion, and adding that the whole article would not exist "If it were not for the fact that women are extraordinarily privileged in modern American society." ) --MelanieN (talk) 23:11, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning TheTimesAreAChanging

Statement by TheTimesAreAChanging

I will respond to Melanie's statements in reverse. The child rape lawsuit against a living person was indeed a hoax and dropped prior to the election, hence why it was largely ignored by the media and not currently included (for lack of consensus) in the main Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations article. Clearly, the mention of that lawsuit in Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016 (which is already far too long and COATRACKY) reflected no "longstanding" consensus, but was merely an oversight. With regard to the "contentious" material I twice added to Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations: If it had lasted longer than one day before being removed, would it then have gained the presumption of "consensus"? At least with regard to the "Miss Teen USA" content, it is quite clear that SPECIFICO and BullRangifer are gaming the system: Every single source on the topic notes that of the fifteen girls to comment on the matter, eleven—the clear majority—"were doubtful or dismissed the possibility that Trump violated their changing room privacy" because, e.g., they were surrounded by chaperones at all times. By declaring it uncontroversial to quote the four girls that accused Trump, but "contentious" to mention the other eleven from the same source, SPECIFICO, BullRangifer, and now Melanie are in effect arguing that Misplaced Pages policy actually requires us to intentionally misrepresent our own sources and mislead readers. That is an absurd and untenable position: If "consensus" dictates that the former recollections are within the scope of the article, by definition the same must be true of the latter. Moreover, if that is not the case—if there is no reasonable limit to obstructionism—then why can't I simply refuse to assent to the very existence of an article on Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations, per WP:RECENTISM/WP:NOTNEWS/ect.—or blanket delete the "Miss Teen USA" subsection, given that no sources describe Trump's alleged actions as "sexual misconduct" and the whole paragraph thus contravenes WP:SYNTH and WP:COATRACK? (If I were to do so, would the WP:ONUS then switch to my opponents, or would I be immediately reverted?) In sum, if a source or claim is included in an article, then I don't see how it could possibly violate the spirit of any Misplaced Pages policy to accurately quote the source and disclose all of the viewpoints it deems credible; in fact, that is exactly what WP:NPOV demands.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:41, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Prior to her latest collection of accusations, SPECIFICO reported me directly to two admins and filed this ANI report urging that I be topic banned (which failed to gain any traction with the community because it was obviously retaliation for an ANI report I filed against one of her comrades, since indeffed): She should really stop forum shopping. SPECIFICO purports to monitor and police every aspect of my behavior, including the ideas I express on my userpage, but she still tends to leap to conclusions unsupported by the diffs in question. For example, the "battle cry" in which I supposedly "boasted" about "besting" my "opponents" actually read: "I take my responsibility to edit in a neutral manner seriously, and believe I do a better job of it than many of my opponents." In the same way, Doug Weller warned me not to refer to another editor as a "Nazi," but when I pointed out that the editor in question was an actual unironic Nazi with a userpage devoted to Holocaust denial, he conceded: "Ok, I see why but there were better options that would have led to attention paid to that editor's userpage." Ect. Ect. Ect. Of special interest is SPECIFICO's version of the Dinesh D'Souza conflict documented in the ANI report: "He tries to enlist @Oshwah to assist him in continuing his edit war ... supposedly because 'his' version was 'stable'." (Why is "his" in quotes?) The notion that I advocated restoration to "my" version is simply an absurd caricature of my request; in fact, I urged Oshwah to consider reverting back to a version predating any edits by yours truly! SPECIFICO should be very careful before she accuses anyone of "straw man arguments" or "misrepresentation of other editors."TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:53, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

@Soham321: Yes, I am aware that my penchant for colorful, even vituperative language has gone too far and gotten me into trouble on occasion. Sometimes I have treated Misplaced Pages talk pages more like an online forum; now and then, I have even apologized. I have always tried to draw a sharp distinction between talk page rhetoric (or edit summaries, or my userpage—which SPECIFICO has mined for oppo-research) and edits to actual articles—hence the "I take my responsibility to edit in a neutral manner seriously" message SPECIFICO cites as evidence of the opposite—but I can see how my combative persona can be more of a liability than an asset, particularly when editing articles related to American Politics (where, I have now learned, content disputes are usually resolved by gaming and drama boards rather than substantive discussion). As a character witness, I point to the following comment by Guccisamsclub—an editor with politics well to the Left of my own, and whose opinion of me has fluctuated over time and may well continue to fluctuate, but with whom I have been able to collaborate constructively despite our disagreements: "You might want to stop throwing around terms like 'far-left', 'activist' and 'communist' ... it makes you sound like a shrill regular from Free Republic, Little Green Footballs or worse. Now I've had enough contact with you to know that's not true, but you could easily give the wrong impression to someone else and thus derail the conversation. You had me fooled for some time." (In my defense, Pol Pot considered Elizabeth Becker sufficiently Left-wing to invite her on a guided tour of Democratic Kampuchea, so referring to her as a "far-Left author" on my talk page—while poor form—is not much worse than SPECIFICO's recent attempts to smear Stefan Molyneux as a Nazi, possibly in violation of her Mises Institute topic ban.) @Bishonen: Edit summaries are necessarily snappy and may not include room for nuanced discussion. See here for my detailed thoughts on the "Founder of ISIS" soundbite:

"To be fair to the peoples of the Middle East, there have been many real conspiracies by Western powers in that part of the world (see, e.g., 1953 Iranian coup d'état), and there is obviously some element of truth underlying even the more outlandish allegations (such as the claim that Baghdadi is secretly an Israeli actor named Simon Elliot). Israel, after all, has a well-known policy of providing medical aid to any Syrian rebels that request it, in return for quiet along the Syria-Israel border; there may also be some military assistance and intelligence-sharing—and there is no doubt jihadists have benefited from Israeli largess. Meanwhile, there is far more evidence that "moderate" rebels backed by the United States and its partners tolerated the rise of Islamic State than there is to support the theory that Assad is somehow to blame for the Syrian uprising turning Islamist. When we include ridiculous claims such as John Kerry's assertion that Assad "purposely ced some territory to them in order to make them more of a problem so he can make the argument that he is somehow the protector against them," it's worth considering that the Western press may be more sophisticated than the Arab press but both can be guilty of propaganda."

Why did I allude to Trump's inflammatory quote? Because, despite all of the "fact checkers" that tow the government line with one voice, nothing I wrote above is controversial to experts on Syria: I urge those laughing at Trump's crude rhetoric (or all the "backward Arabs" that think ISIS is a CIA-Mossad conspiracy) to consider first whether the official U.S. government position they are defending has any more factual merit.

I never suggested SPECIFICO is "a paid Democratic party shill"—don't put words in my mouth. I have profound problems with the way SPECIFICO conducted herself during a recent edit war at Dinesh D'Souza, and my description of her as a "hack" cannot be divorced from conduct such as the following:

Case in point: SPECIFICO's "good faith" ally User:Oneshotofwhiskey leaves comments such as "Your excuses and spins about D'Souza's scam-artisty, journalistic fraud, and unfounded conspiracy theories betray your political agenda. It has no place here. Nor did your failed attempt at a SPI witch hunt that went no where, and was clearly in service of your agenda" and "You claimed oh so arrogantly that you 'know a sock when you see it' and then tried to use that in service of an agenda to silence another editor. Apparently you/ew shouldn't trust your eyes and your credibility has suffered as a result of your penchance for false accusations"; SPECIFICO does nothing. I write "Oneshotofwhiskey's blatant vandalism continues. Compare the old, accepted "Personal life" section with the Oneshotofwhiskey version, complete with a brand-new "Marriage scandal" subsection. Is there any other BLP written in this manner? Of course not; Oneshotofwhiskey is simply making a mockery of Misplaced Pages policy. Arbitration is now necessary, and probably a topic ban to end the disruption"—and SPECIFICO partially redacts it as a "personal attack." Can you say double standard?

This should tell you two things: 1. I don't attack editors because I am "angry," but because when I am attacked I have found it expedient to hit back twice as hard. (Given that that's no longer true with SPECIFICO stalking my contributions, I promise to cut it out.) 2. SPECIFICO is not a neutral arbiter. More importantly, SPECIFICO already brought these same diffs to another forum in a failed effort to topic ban me from Dinesh D'Souza; this thread has devolved from analyzing a specific DS violation that caused minor disruption into a witchhunt and personal attack on me, based on every unpopular idea I so much as expressed on my userpage. (Of course, my userpage also makes clear that I would be considered Left-of-center on issues like gay marriage, abortion, ect., but that's neither here nor there.) No editor would hold up perfectly under such scrutiny by a dedicated stalker and forum shopper.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:11, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by AlexEng

I am entirely uninvolved in this matter, but I am the author of the Friendly Reminder banner on TheTimesAreAChanging's talk page. I just want to be clear that this was in fact a friendly reminder and not an indictment of the user's behavior. AlexEng 03:59, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Kingsindian

I don't see why this is at AE. There's little or no disruption and plainly looks like a content dispute.

FWIW, I think TTAAC is making a good case here and on the talkpage for their edits. However, "vandalism" has a specific meaning on Misplaced Pages: good-faith but wrong-headed edits aren't vandalism - so the term should be avoided. "Hoax" is also imprecisely used; there are questions about the case, but it has not been definitely ruled a hoax AFAIK. We all have opinions about political matters, but it's usually best to make arguments and keep the normative opinions out of discussions. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 10:29, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

I am rather surprised by the reaction in the admin section. The focus should be on disruption; apparently, one revert is now considered sufficiently disruptive to take action now? If such standards were applied uniformly, I wonder how many of the people working in politics areas will remain? I only give the example of another case on this very page, concerning My very best wishes (here). Please tell me what would have been the result if one re-insertion before clear consensus means that admins should take action.

I know this: I certainly won't be able to work in the I/P area using these standards. There has been no refusal to discuss the matter on the talkpage by the parties, so why are the admins getting involved? Are we now children that we can't work out such minor things among ourselves and need to go running to mommy?

For the record, I have yet to find a single edit which I have agreed on with TTAAC in my time here, or with MvBW. So this is not about content; it is about using common sense and fair standards. A tight leash is sometimes appropriate, but Misplaced Pages has a thousand policies and a million ways of running afoul of them. The election is over; most of the disputes have already, or will cool down significantly.

I reiterate my solution above. TTAAC should tone down their language, avoid commenting on editors and avoid using imprecise terms. No other action should be taken. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 08:01, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Suggestions by My very best wishes

This subject area is going to be very difficult, and for a good reason. I have two practical suggestions.

Please cancel editing restriction about "reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)". That restriction has been heavily misused by some contributors to unilaterally remove well-sourced materials they do not like, which goes against consensus. If someone edit war against consensus or without talking, this is sanctionable per se. One does not need additional editing restrictions. The behavior of TTAAC is precisely an example of gaming these discretionary sanctions. He removes a well sourced text he does not like (diff #4; this is actually something widely published and sourced to multiple RS), but unilaterally inserts texts he wants to be included, even though they were vigorously opposed by other contributors on article talk page (diffs #1 to #3).
Please enforce guidelines on article talk pages. If anyone is talking not about improvement of the corresponding article on these pages, this is already a violation, and especially if one is talking about another contributor (request just above). My very best wishes (talk) 15:36, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Soham321

Agree completely with Kingsindian. This is a content dispute, nothing more. Specifically, with respect to Melanie's four points, i see nothing wrong in the first edit of TheTimesAreAChanging. With respect to the second and third points of Melanie, i have offered a clarification here: diff. TheTimesAreAChanging has agreed that my assessment about his edits was correct. With respect to the fourth point of Melanie, note that there is an ongoing RfC about the Jane Doe allegations taking place at this talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Donald_Trump_sexual_misconduct_allegations and any material pertaining to the Jane Doe allegations is not being permitted to be inserted into the main article. I see nothing wrong in removing material pertaining to the Jane Doe allegations from a different WP page pertaining to Trump until this RfC has been resolved. Soham321 (talk) 20:21, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

it is inevitable that some 'heat' will be generated when editing contentious WP pages. The way to deal with this, almost always, is to tolerate it rather than to seek sanctions on editors one has content disputes with. At the top of the page it says that if you post a comment here then your own behavior can also be scrutinized. So let me scrutinize SPECIFICO's behavior for edits pertaining to the same Trump page from which Melanie has given three out of her four diffs. SPECIFICO warns me on my talk page (TP) and again on the TP of the main article that i am liable to face Arbcom Discretionary Sanctions (DS). What had i done? I had only added a sentence to the butler's testimony from a reference already present in the main article, and given another reference which was corroborating what the reference already present said. Diffs of her 'threats': diff1 and diff2. When i tell her on the TP that i do not believe i am in violation of Arbcom sanctions she responds by claiming the butler is 'biased' and liable to be senile: diff3. Since the butler is still alive i believe this is a violation of WP:BLP and i point it out to her. And giving frivolous threats to another editor about facing Arbcom sanctions is disruptive behavior, plain and simple. I am mentioning all this not because i seek sanctions against SPECIFICO but because i believe the threshold for giving sanctions has to be considerably higher than some of us seem to imagine. Soham321 (talk) 01:59, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

There is an interesting discussion taking place here: https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Hidden_Tempo (be sure to check the edit history of the page to see a recent edit of Melanie that has been reverted by Hidden Tempo). The relevance of this discussion is that this is again stemming from a content dispute related to the 2016 US Elections which can easily be resolved by giving a warning to the editor to tone down their language; instead we are seeing the editor being threatened with sanctions. Soham321 (talk) 15:24, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

MelanieN I have seen the two links you gave to the previous warnings. The one where he called the editor who had introduced an edit in the lead of the Ronald Reagan page, from a self-published blog, an 'idiot' is mitigated by two things. First, removing that edit from the lead of the Reagan page contributed to improving the quality of the article. Second, when he called the person 'idiot' he did not name anyone and it seemed he did not even know who the person who introduced this edit was (probably the edit had not been introduced recently) and this makes his comment less inflammatory than it would otherwise have been. Still he appropriately received a warning about using the word 'idiot'. The person who gave this warning has clarified in this discussion that this was only a friendly warning, not an indictment of the user's behavior. He did not protest against being given the warning, and we have to give him the benefit of doubt and accept that he agreed he had made a mistake by using the word 'idiot'.

With respect to the first link you gave, he explained he introduced the disputed edit back into the main article on the basis of a 4-2 consensus, since he had seen disputed edits placed back in main articles on even weaker consensus. Of course, he is wrong and Bull rightly pointed out to him on his talk page why he is wrong. But i don't see him protesting when Bull tells him he is wrong meaning, again giving him the benefit of doubt, that he agrees with Bull.

Nothing here deserves sanctions. Not his previous edits, because of which he was warned, and not his more recent edits because of which sanctions have been sought against him. This much said, i think we can ask him to tone down his language, specifically in edit summaries. I agree with Kingsindian's suggestion: "TTAAC should tone down their language, avoid commenting on editors and avoid using imprecise terms." The problematic words used by TheTimesAreAChanging, in my opinion, were 'idiot', 'hoax', and 'vandalism'. TTAAC, do you agree with the assessment of Kingsindian and myself? Do you agree to do what we are suggesting? Soham321 (talk) 21:03, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by (SPECIFICO)

@Soham321: @Kingsindian: -- Most Arbcom violations arise from "content disputes". The issue here is whether this user violated ARBAP2 Sanctions that have been put in place to ensure orderly and respectful discussions and resolutions of those content disputes. TheTimesTheyAreAChanging had been editing disruptively on politics-related articles for some time now. He narrowly avoided a block at a recent AN3. Instead of discussion, he launches into straw man arguments, equivocation, misrepresentation of other editors, and personal attacks. Until recently, His user page read like a battle cry, starting with boast that he bests his "opponents" which he removed after I referred to it at his AN3 thread. His entire user page is a bizarre political rant of the sort I've not seen on any other user's page. This user seems to work constructively on articles relating to video games and other innocuous topics, but he lacks the emotional maturity to work on these difficult politics-related articles. I recommend a topic ban from American Politics. Let's see whether this user can refrain from yet another round of personal attacks on me here. SPECIFICO talk 20:40, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Starting to collect some diffs on this editor: Here is a long talk page thread in which he launches into repeated personal attacks on editor @NYCJosh: ' Some of the many battleground edit comments -- and these are just from the past few weeks! etc. etc. SPECIFICO talk 21:51, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Here he removed a DS notice from his talk page with the edit comment "not interested, pal" He subsequently denied that he edits articles related to American Politics! He's been warned repeatedly by various users,and recently by Admins: @DoRD: here. Then, here, he tries to enlist @Oshwah: to assist him in continuing his edit war after Oshwah protected a page on which TheTimesAreAChanging was edit warring, supposedly because "his" version was "stable." @Doug Weller: warned him here and the attacks and disruption have only gotten worse. SPECIFICO talk 22:18, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi @Bishonen: Sorry, I forgot the link. It's here and @Oshwah: observes that TheTimesAreAChanging has violated 3RR here that he's received the DS notice, and that he will be blocked for further edit-warring. SPECIFICO talk 00:43, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

I sure hope that y'all are reading all the comments and links before commenting. 4 Admins warned this user. Other editors politely asked him to stop edit warring on numerous American Politics articles (the ones he claims, in one of the links that he does not edit). Ad hominems, mansplaining, personal attacks and disparagement should not be OK in any article. Under DS users should know that such behavior will surely lead to a block. Actions have consequences. SPECIFICO talk 17:07, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning TheTimesAreAChanging

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

This does look like inappropriate behaviour to me. TheTimesAreAChanging added some content which was removed by another editor who didn't think it was appropriate. At that point the issue should have been taken to the talk page, both per usual practice and more importantly the active sanction requiring that "All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)". Instead TheTimesAreAChanging chose to put it back calling the removal "vandalism" (which it clearly isn't). This is a pretty clear breach of the active sanction. Hut 8.5 12:21, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
This looks like a straightforward violation of the discretionary page restrictions on Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations. A few weeks ago, Melanie specifically pointed out on the user's page that they needed to be careful about editing U.S. politics articles under page restrictions. This was in regard to TheTimes' reinstating challenged edits on another article (Political positions of Donald Trump), but you'd think they'd be able to keep the general, and specifically Trump-related, warning in mind. Also I think it's pretty egregious for an experienced editor to play the tired "vandalism" card here in order to justify their revert. New users can be excused for claiming anything they disagree with is vandalism, as they often do, but it won't fly in this case. Bishonen | talk 17:16, 24 November 2016 (UTC).

Adding note: SPECIFICO, do you have a link to the ANI discussion you mention, where you say TheTimesAreAChanging narrowly avoided a block? (Minor point: you refer to him as "TheTimesTheyAreAChanging", but that isn't his name. It could be argued that it ought to be — that your version does more justice to Bob Dylan, and to rhythm — but that's the user's business.) Bishonen | talk 00:17, 25 November 2016 (UTC).
More: Thank you, SPECIFICO. (That's an AN3 thread, not ANI; you may want to change that in your post). I was aware before in a general way of TheTimesAreAChanging being embattled on Am Pol pages, and I had even looked at his userpage — it reminded me of User:EEng's, mutatis mutandis and without the wit. But I hesitated to act, even to warn, simply because there's so much unpleasantness on those article talkpages overall that it takes much study to be sure one person sinks below the general level. Anyway, I'm interested in your diffs, and note from them especially TheTimesAreAChanging's tendency to put personal attacks and BLP violations in edit summaries. Examples:

13 Oct 2016: "RV patronizing warning from hack editor. I have every right--indeed, obligation--to rollback a sockpuppet attack on a BLP; SPECIFICO has yet to engage the issues on talk, instead lecturing me about "edit wars." Come off it!" Not sure what a "hack editor" is. In the context, perhaps a paid Democratic party shill?

27 Oct 2016: "Under no obligation to make these archives easily accessible for oppo-research by SPECIFICO or others." That's like taking every opportunity for a battleground stance, even for something as anodyne as removing his own archive links from his own page.

19 Nov 2016: "Classic NYT propaganda. Flynn was forced out for warning Obama—the "Founder of ISIS"—to stop!)" Calling Obama the "Founder of ISIS". It has quotes round it, and yes, we all know it's a quote and from where, but why is it there at all?

If TheTimesAreAChanging has some explanation of these edit summaries that will make them sound remotely decent, collaborative, etc, I'll be interested to hear it. If he doesn't, I'm not sure he should be editing American politics at all, when it makes him so angry. I see him editing computer games and related pages in a pleasant and constructive manner (AFAICS); stick to that, perhaps? Bishonen | talk 22:31, 25 November 2016 (UTC).