| Revision as of 09:53, 11 November 2016 editA Train (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users9,385 edits →Use the box without the succession of his positions: oppose the new infobox← Previous edit | Revision as of 05:01, 4 December 2016 edit undoLegobot (talk | contribs)Bots1,669,437 edits Removing expired RFC template.Next edit → | ||
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| ==Infobox== | ==Infobox== | ||
| {{RFC|bio|rfcid=12850B1}} | |||
| Should the infobox have the succession of his positions or not? --] (]) 04:21, 4 November 2016 (UTC) | Should the infobox have the succession of his positions or not? --] (]) 04:21, 4 November 2016 (UTC) | ||
| ===Use the box with succession of his positions so there is continuity in the series=== | ===Use the box with succession of his positions so there is continuity in the series=== | ||
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 faq page Frequently asked questions
Controversies, praise, and criticism
Q1: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section?
A1: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praises and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per WP:CRIT.
Q2: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article?
A2: Misplaced Pages's Neutral Point of View policy says that "All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles and all editors." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about MacArthur in a single article would exceed Misplaced Pages's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles.
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A3: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Misplaced Pages, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored.
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Q4: This article is over 100kb long, WP:SIZE says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened?
A4: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 100kB of readable prose (which corresponds to about 10,000 words), not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of December 2023, this article had about 19,300 words of readable prose (114 kB according to prosesize tool), which is over the limit. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit.
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Photo
There has been much discussion in this talk page but none about the photo. https://en.wikipedia.org/File:MacArthur_Manila.jpg Maybe it is genuine but to me it looks like some bizarre photoshopping. Is there any way to 'citation needed' or suchlike for a photo?
I take that back. It seems that he really was known for using a eccentric pipe. Probably worth mentioning this in the article.
Article size
I've had this on my watchlist for some years having participated in its Featured Article Candidature and I notice it's increased markedly in size this year, from 78kb readable prose in January to 99kb now, with no sign it's going to slow down. I don't claim to be an expert on Mac and I don't want to stifle content creation but I am interesting in discussing whether the additions are all vital and whether in fact some should be dropped or broken out into sub-articles so the main article doesn't get bigger than the subject's ego. What's everyone think? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:39, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
- When the article went to FAC, it was trimmed to reduce it in size, as it was felt that the article was too large. But it has steadily grown larger since. I think some of the new material on the occupation of Japan should be in that article instead. Hawkeye7 (talk) 06:41, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
- Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the article trimmed back to where it was in January or earlier. It's just so easy to divide up the information into dozens of sub-articles about each phase in his life/historical period. This is an overview article and there's no need for excess detail.StoryKai (talk) 22:14, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Style is not Encyclopedic
Style is artificially colloquial and overly affectionate, as if to be entertaining, like a eulogy,. It greatly interferes with gleaning information from this article. An overall rewrite for style would make it a far better fit for Misplaced Pages. Why is it locked?--75.164.155.194 (talk) 22:09, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Infobox
Should the infobox have the succession of his positions or not? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 04:21, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Use the box with succession of his positions so there is continuity in the series
| General of the ArmyDouglas MacArthur | |
|---|---|
 MacArthur in Manila, Philippines c. 1945, smoking a corncob pipe | |
| 1st Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers | |
| In office 1945–1951 | |
| Succeeded by | Matthew Ridgway |
| 13th United States Army Chief of Staff | |
| In office 1930–1935 | |
| President | Franklin D. Roosevelt |
| Preceded by | Charles P. Summerall |
| Succeeded by | Malin Craig |
| 31st Superintendent of the United States Military Academy | |
| In office 1919–1922 | |
| Preceded by | Samuel Escue Tillman |
| Succeeded by | Fred Winchester Sladen |
| Personal details | |
| Born | (1880-01-26)26 January 1880 Little Rock, Arkansas |
| Died | 5 April 1964(1964-04-05) (aged 84) Washington, D.C. |
| Nickname(s) | Gaijin Shogun (English: The Foreign Generalissimo) Dugout Doug Big Chief |
| Military career | |
| Allegiance |  United States Philippines |
| Service |  United States Army Philippine Army |
| Years of service | 1903–64 |
| Rank |  General of the Army (U.S. Army)Field Marshal (Philippine Army) |
| Service number | O-57 |
| Commands | United Nations Command Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers Southwest Pacific Area See other commands US Army Forces Far East |
| Battles / wars | See battles
Mexican Revolution |
| Awards | Medal of Honor Distinguished Service Cross (3) Army Distinguished Service Medal (5) Navy Distinguished Service Medal Silver Star (7) Distinguished Flying Cross Bronze Star Air Medal Purple Heart (2) Complete list |
| Spouse(s) |
Louise Cromwell Brooks (m. 1922; div. 1929) Jean Marie Faircloth (m. 1937; "his death" is deprecated; use "died" instead. 1964) |
| Relations | See MacArthur family |
| Other work | Chairman of the Board of Remington Rand |
| Signature |  |
Y The "officeholder infobox" provides continuity with other people in the series, it displays the positions he held, none of the military information is left out. The old box "buries the lede" that he was Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 00:34, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- Y It is important to list the offices held by the person. It is listed all the time on politician's userboxes, as well as others. Since Douglas MacArthur was a brigadier general in WWI, Supreme Allied Commander in the Pacific during WWII, and Commander of the UNC during The Korean War, he should have the boxes for the reason that he held high positions, both in military and in politics. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 11:49, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- Y Include offices - I think the template suitable for Chesty Puller, but not for him any more than it is for Dwight D. Eisenhower. It's partly the rank General of the Army (United States) seems above the scope of the template, partly that his additional positions between the wars or in Phillipines and Japan post-war or presidential candidacy and corporate career. But mostly I think template is intended as a convenience and help, but should never be a mandatory or limiting thing; and he, if anyone, is an example if one is able to vary when wanted or needed. Markbassett (talk) 02:31, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
| General of the Army Douglas MacArthur | |
|---|---|
| MacArthur in Manila, Philippines c. 1945, smoking a corncob pipe | |
| Nickname(s) | Gaijin Shogun (English: The Foreign Generalissimo) Dugout Doug Big Chief |
| Born | (1880-01-26)26 January 1880 Little Rock, Arkansas |
| Died | 5 April 1964(1964-04-05) (aged 84) Washington, D.C. |
| Buried | Norfolk, Virginia |
| Allegiance | United States Philippines |
| Service | United States Army Philippine Army |
| Years of service | 1903–64 |
| Rank | General of the Army (U.S. Army) Field Marshal (Philippine Army) |
| Service number | O-57 |
| Commands | United Nations Command Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers Southwest Pacific Area See other commands US Army Forces Far East |
| Battles / wars | See battles
Mexican Revolution |
| Awards | Medal of Honor Distinguished Service Cross (3) Army Distinguished Service Medal (5) Navy Distinguished Service Medal Silver Star (7) Distinguished Flying Cross Bronze Star Air Medal Purple Heart (2) Complete list |
| Spouse(s) |
Louise Cromwell Brooks
(m. 1922; div. 1929) Jean Marie Faircloth (m. 1937; "his death" is deprecated; use "died" instead. 1964) |
| Relations | See MacArthur family |
| Other work | Chairman of the Board of Remington Rand |
| Signature | |
Use the box without the succession of his positions
- This article is a featured article which has been subjected to rigorous review. Now there is an attempt to substitute a new infobox for the template:infobox military person. This infobox has been developed for military biographies. It is consistently used for military biographies. Douglas MacArthur is a military person. The use of a different infobox for a chief of staff makes the article inconsistent with other military biographies. The argument that it makes him inconsistent with of chiefs of staff is spurious; the same editor just added it to the other articles; it should be removed from them as well.
- The change allows the chief of staff navigation into the infobox; but this loses some of our purely military fields, such as the service number (used for looking up personnel records in the archives), thus diminishing the value of the infobox. Loss of our infobox loses us control over the information in military articles.
- Moreover, the added information is redundant, because it is already provided in the navigation boxes at the bottom. These have always been preferred for military subjects as they usually hold a variety of military posts over the course of their career. This is the case with Douglas MacArthur. Duplicating the navigation information in the infobox adds no value to the article.
- Note that the ArbCom infoboxes case gives the content creators priority over people wishing to add infoboxes. "The use of an infobox in an article is a content decision, not a maintenance decision. They should be added as part of content creation; they should not be added systematically to articles." Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:46, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
I can try to get the service number to display, but it is also stored in Wikidata. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 00:55, 4 November 2016 (UTC)- One of five fields lost. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- All the fields are there, I performed the embed function on your template instead of mine, now it is fixed. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 01:29, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- One of five fields lost. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- Ditto Hawkeye7 re redundancy and superior in other info. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:33, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- What other info are you talking about, please elaborate. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 01:47, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- I was referring to at least some of the five fields re Hawkeye but these appear to have been addressed as I was considering my response. My point re redundancy stands. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:54, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- Two left. Why can we see the error messages and not him? Is there an option that needs to be switched on? Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:40, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- I was referring to at least some of the five fields re Hawkeye but these appear to have been addressed as I was considering my response. My point re redundancy stands. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:54, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- Why don't you tell me the name of the two fields that you cannot see, so I do not have to guess. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 04:19, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- What other info are you talking about, please elaborate. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 01:47, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- This is re-inventing the wheel. Leave it with {{infobox military person}}. I fail to see how the alternative is superior. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- From an outside point of view, by placing the positions that he held at the top of the infobox, you make them more important than the details about the man himself. For an article about Douglas MacArthur, that sounds counter-intuitive. For example I know that Matthew Ridgway succeeded MacArthur as Supreme Commander before I even know if MacArthur is still alive. In my opinion it should be left as is. Llammakey (talk) 11:05, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- He was a soldier first and foremost, so the infobox should be the military person style. From a practical point of view, Llammakey makes the case against the office holder infobox very well. The succession boxes at the end of the article provide the necessary info on his important positions. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:11, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- I Guess his nicknames are the most important thing about him. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 12:55, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- Your POV or are you just being facetious? Cinderella157 (talk) 13:49, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
- {{infobox military person}} works fine for me and there doesn't seem to be a compelling argument to change, indeed there are a number of drawbacks for the proposed alternative (as indicated above). At any rate surely we all have more constructive things we could be working on rather than fixing something that is not broken? Anotherclown (talk) 01:01, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
- I don't see the value of the new, more cluttered infobox. There's probably an infinite amount of data points that you could add to an infobox like that: Umpteenth Valedictorian of West Texas Military Academy... Umptyfrats Adjutant of 3rd Engineer BN... etc. Including his position as the Superintendent of West Point so high up in the infobox probably gives undue weight to a role that (for MacArthur, anyway) was a relatively minor aspect of his career. A Train 09:53, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
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