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Revision as of 04:47, 25 December 2016 editEdJohnston (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Checkusers, Administrators71,225 edits →Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Mooretwin: The appeal is successful← Previous edit Revision as of 18:16, 26 December 2016 edit undoVolunteer Marek (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers94,120 editsNo edit summaryNext edit →
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:*Closing. ], ] and myself are OK with lifting the ban, and ] does not object. The ban is lifted. ] (]) 04:36, 25 December 2016 (UTC) :*Closing. ], ] and myself are OK with lifting the ban, and ] does not object. The ban is lifted. ] (]) 04:36, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
{{hab}} {{hab}}

==INeverCry==
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br>Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small>

===Request concerning INeverCry===
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Volunteer Marek}} 18:16, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|INeverCry}}<p>{{ds/log|INeverCry}}
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->

;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ]:
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced --->

; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it :
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. -->
# Personal attack and insult
# Personal attack and insult
# Personal attack and insult
# Marking non-minor edits as minor, obviously on purpose
# Personal attack and insult

;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]):
*

; Additional comments by editor filing complaint :
<!-- Add any further comment here -->

; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested :
This is one of those things that needs to be nipped in the bud before it gets worse, since INeverCry basically just opened up a discussion with personal attacks and insults. You start off by insulting people, chances are the discussion won't get better.

I do want to note that I find being called "anti-Russian" very insulting. It's basically like calling somebody racist. And it's total nonsense. So yeah, it's an egregious personal attack.

<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->
===Discussion concerning INeverCry===
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. <br>Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small>
====Statement by INeverCry====

====Statement by (username)====
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. -->

===Result concerning INeverCry===
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.''
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. -->
*

Revision as of 18:16, 26 December 2016

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    SaintAviator

    Closed with no action, SaintAviator is reminded to be more careful with their comments referring to other editors, and particularly that they think twice about making inappropriate comments about living persons. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:35, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning SaintAviator

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:49, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    SaintAviator (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American_politics_2#Discretionary_sanctions_.281932_cutoff.29 and WP:ARBEE
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 12/21/16 WP:BLP violation, WP:BATTLEGROUND, references to "loser Hillary"
    2. 12/21/16 WP:BLP (down at the bottom), WP:BATTLEGROUND and casting WP:ASPERSIONS, discussing editors rather than content
    3. 12/21/16 personal attacks. Yes, I know it's on his talk page which usually gets more leeway, but I still don't appreciate him lying about me ( also this)
    4. 12/21/16 personal attacks, aspersions, battleground, the whole enchilada in one comment. Probably some BLP violation in there too.
    5. 11/14/16 non-constructive comments, battleground
    6. 11/14/16 battleground, gratuitous insults, non-constructive comments, pretty clear case of WP:NOTHERE
    7. 11/14/16 "Man up generation snowflake" - more insults and battleground, WP:NOTHERE
    8. 11/13/16 posting links to far-right websites "for discussion" (the linked website is ran by a guy who also runs https://openrevolt.info/newresistance/ this crap.
    9. 11/13/16 taunting, non-constructive, battleground (I hadn't edited that page for weeks so the only reason to bring my name up is to act like a jerk)
    10. 11/13/16 - not a violation but shows the user's mindset - that what we consider reliable sources "lie" and that we should use "alt" sources. Not a violation but it does raise the question of why is this user here?
    11. 11/13/16 personal attacks
    12. basically more of the same

    ... and so on. I could keep going further back but it's pretty much the same thing. Note that the above diffs are like 95% of the users contributions since 11/13/16. Insulting others, taunting, making BLP violating remarks is pretty much all they do. You go back to earlier edits it's the same thing as noted by numerous warnings on their talk page.

    again, I could go back further in time and find several more warnings from a wide variety of users. SaintAviator has been given plenty of leeway in the past and plenty of rope already.

    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • For US politicis
    • For EE
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Another clear indication of WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:NOTHERE is this section on their talk page they created

    "Loser Hillary" comment was clearly a BLP violation. "Loser Hillary" /= "Hillary, who lost the election". Also obvious in context of all the other comments made by the users. He's jeering.

    @User:Lipsquid - 1) diff 150 is clearly labeled as warning from Timothyjosephwood. He just commented in a section you happened to start. I did not say you warned Saint Aviator. 2) don't take things SaintAviator says at face value, much less put your trust in it. 3) these are far from minor infractions as has been noted by several users. And they also establish a long running pattern. Pretty much all that SaintAviator does on Misplaced Pages is make taunting comments on talk or personal attacks.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:00, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

    @User:Peacemaker67, he's talking about the WP:EEML arb com case from... seven years ago. And no I didn't start it nor was I on it for most of its existence. The fact that he's bringing up something from seven years ago possibly suggests this isn't a new user, but who knows.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:52, 22 December 2016 (UTC) Add: Not interested in relitigating a 7 year old case. ArbCom made its decisions that case is over. I do wish to note however that Etienne Dolet's description is full of bull. The fact that he's even trying to bring it up (what's he doing here anyway?) just shows his own battleground attitude. Oh, and might note that as early as Dec 2009, shortly after case closed, AE administrator User:Tznkai basically said that he was going to start banning people who tried to invoked "EEML!" as an excuse for their own disruptive behavior . Like ED and SaintAviator are doing here.

    User:Peacemaker67, can you also look at the diffs from 11/14? I know they're older but they show that these aren't isolated incidents (and also that when he said "loser Hillary" it was most likely meant as an insult not just a statement of fact as is being pretended right).

    (2)

    Can someone explain to me what the hell a "pro-Western slant" is suppose to be? And can someone explain to me why all of sudden we've got two or three editors using the exact same strange phrasing? Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:34, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

    Previous warnings


    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    Discussion concerning SaintAviator

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by SaintAviator

    VM sees me as someone who sees his real agenda in his edits on a few pages like Putin. He thus feels threatened. He will deny this. IMHO for personal or other reasons his agenda is to make some pages anti, like Putins article, making it anti Putin. His drive is to make Putin look bad / guilty / suspect. He and his fellows do not ever deviate from this. Once on an Arb board under WP:EEML VM's (formerly Radeksz) past came out regarding a back channel email group who colluded to influence wikipedia. He was outed. Is he still doing it? Does the same crowd follow him round? Complaints, like this one, are a tactic to attempt to limit people like myself who see whats going on. Whats his motive in making a certain sway of articles anti? I dont know, it could be anything. Most articles that get the anti treatment are Russian. Its quite a disease these days being anti Russian. Its not good editing. Im Australian BTW, not Russian. I like knowledge. I like encyclopedias. I dislike the biased POV editing full of insinuations VM does on certain sites. So I call it like I see it. And a lot of editors over the past few years who have come and gone disagreed with his edits too. They come and go but VM and a core group dont change. Why is this? This is the kind of situation where non anonymous editing would be beneficial. SaintAviator lets talk 04:42, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

    BTW Of course Im here to build an encyclopedia. Anyone going far enough back will see I have edited articles at a higher level in the past than recent times. Ive been busy with other things lately. Its the holidays down under. Short of time, positive editing also involves talk pages where surveys are and discussion casts light on particular biases which are non encyclopedic and long standing. I remember the day I ran into the VM MVBW duo. I knew then that WP had problems. Some people have the wrong end of the stick here. Its people like me and Étienne Dolet and many many others who make WP good by resisting the NPOV pro western (correction, pro Neo Con) agenda of people like VM and MVBWs. SaintAviator lets talk 06:05, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

    Example of VM MVBWs obfuscation. SOHR, VM then MVBW delete criticism section. Long running delay tactics by them blocking return. Like its a joke. No one hardly agrees with them . Today after months of wasted time, its back up. SOHR is a one man bedsit anti Syrian Govt pro Western (correction, pro Neo Con ) spin blogger. VM liked to quote him. SaintAviator lets talk 09:12, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

    PS Re Loser McCain comment. Clarification of my comment required. Like H Clinton McCain also lost presidential bid

    Re MVBWs comments below. You're cherry picking my quotes. Heres my full quote. 'Its people like me and Étienne Dolet and many many others who make WP good by resisting the NPOV pro western (correction, pro Neo Con) agenda of people like VM and MVBWs'. BTW how did you know about this board when I didnt live link your name? Its uncanny how you always turn up when VM complains or edits Eastern European articles. SaintAviator lets talk 22:54, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

    Statement by EtienneDolet

    Firstly, I don't see how these concerns raised by the OP are confined to WP:ARBAP2, bearing in mind that all these diffs (and I mean it when I say all) are found on talk page discussions, and that there are no diffs that present a disruptive editing patterns when it comes to main space editing in the topic area. If anything, these concerns should be brought up at WP:ANI. And in regards to the concerns themselves, some of them are half-truths in the way the OP has chosen to describe them. For example, the reference to "loser Hillary" was merely signifying that she lost the election. This was reaffirmed by SaintAviator when I myself was concerned over that language and requested a clarification from him. Some of the other comments by SaintAviator appear to be harmless (i.e. the non-constructive ones). Since this user rarely edits main space, I suggest that at most he receive a formal warning and be reminded to keep discussions less personal and more content driven. Étienne Dolet (talk) 00:17, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

    @Volunteer Marek: by the way, I suggest adding diffs to prove as to whether SaintAviator is aware of these sanctions (both AP2 and EE). Admins may ask for that. Étienne Dolet (talk) 00:51, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
    @Lipsquid: and @Peacemaker67: SaintAviator is most likely referring to WP:EEML, an infamous off-wiki e-mailing list that has placed a permanent stain on Misplaced Pages's history (surprised y'all haven't heard about it). When one thinks of ArbCom, they think of WP:EEML, and Volunteer Marek (formerly Radeksz) was not only a member (members didn't get sanctioned), but an active participant in the manipulation of Misplaced Pages procedures which included canvassing, tag-team edit-warring, gaming, and vote-stacking in the EE topic area in order to further their (pro-western) POV and oppose and block anyone in their way. Since this has become a Misplaced Pages case (under WP:EEML), I don't think SaintAviator, or any other user for that matter, should be restricted from speaking about it. It should be treated as any other ArbCom case. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:36, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
    To answer VM's question: I'm here because I've known SaintAviator for quite some time and have been involved in many discussions with him over the past year. Also, I wanted to provide more information regarding the "loser Hillary" incident since I told him to clarify those remarks as to whether he meant "loser" as in someone who lost an election or something else. Étienne Dolet (talk) 05:29, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
    I've stricken my comment regarding the seven year old Arb case, which was apparently a thing back in the day. I am ignoring the Hillary "loser" edit, as it is a blunt statement of fact, nothing more. It is the McCain BLP comment I am focusing on. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:43, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

    Statement by Lipsquid

    First, edit 150 above is mine and I do not consider it a warning and I never said SaintAviator is WP:NOTHERE. Second, the notification on SaintAviator's page is improper Third, these infractions over the last few days are very minor and not worthy of any enforcement action, except this edit: . It really troubles me. It is either true, not true or somewhere in the middle. Someone has to own it... Lipsquid (talk) 01:54, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

    Regardless of SaintAviator's behavior, which I tried to calm down on his talk page and obviously do not feel is entirely constructive, the whole WP:EEML thing disgusts me. Why is VM getting a pass to continue editing Eastern European political articles with a pro-West slant? In fact why is he allowed to edit Eastern European political articles at all? He obviously has extreme biases that go beyond what a normal person would hold and he aggressively pushes his POV on these articles. To top it off, he mentioned regarding SaintAviator and EEML "I still don't appreciate him lying about me" when he is in fact not being truthful. I find VM's involvement with a dispute about John McCain on Putin's page hugely troubling. Much more troubling than any of SaintAviator's comments. I can let bygones be bygones and I said things about my positive experiences working with VM on other articles, and I meant it. But a topic about McCain and Putin should be off limits, if I was involved in a mess like that and I truly cared about Misplaced Pages and not my own agenda, I would steer completely clear of those topics for the good of WP, VM has not done that. This is a giant mess especially since the discussion was leaning toward excluding McCain's comments and then this is filed over minor issues on a talk page. Lipsquid (talk) 17:32, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

    References

    1. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:SaintAviator&oldid=756076525

    Statement by Sagecandor

    The evidence presented by Volunteer Marek shows violations of site policies by SaintAviator (talk · contribs). These include: WP:BLP, WP:NPA, and demonstrate WP:NOTHERE. Example problems . The account in question appears to only exist for WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior, and not to improve content on the encyclopedia. Sagecandor (talk) 04:11, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

    Statement by DHeyward

    These seem rather tedentious complaints given the election is over and they are comments in talk space. The very first complaint is about a reference to Hillary Clinton. Clinton was the loser in the 2016 U.S. Presidential election. If such a characterization is disturbing to editors, they should probably not be editing political articles as there seems to be a rather high emotional attachment if they view being characterized as "losing" as a BLP violation. I realize the next argument is that the term "loser" was used to invoke a response but I submit it is exposing the raw emotion of the complainant rather than any actionable BLP violation. Clinton being the loser in the election is in no way a BLP violation as she conceded the race on election night. Close this with trouts all around and let the election and its emotions fade away. --DHeyward (talk) 08:15, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

    Just for clarification, I'm ignoring the Clinton diff as a potential BLP violation, it appears to be a blunt statement of fact. It is the McCain BLP violation I am referring to. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:25, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

    Statement by My very best wishes

    As someone who interacted with SA in the project, I must tell that he is not helping. First of all, he intentionally uses broken English and creates unbearable atmosphere on article talk pages with comments like that ,,,,. Secondly, he edit war on the same pages ,, ,,. I think his response on AE was also clearly a WP:Battle. This is "us against them". For example, he tells: "its people like me and Étienne Dolet" are "resisting" "agenda" of .

    @SA. I commented here only because you already mentioned me in your response, even though I am a 3-rd party in this request. My very best wishes (talk) 15:24, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

    Statement by Timothyjosephwood

    Close with a clear warning that off-topic comments are not welcome, and BLP violations will not be tolerated, since warnings from lesser mortals like myself have had apparently little impact. TimothyJosephWood 15:30, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning SaintAviator

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • Having had a look at the diffs, and SaintAviator's recent editing history, it is apparent that nearly all of SaintAviator's recent editing has been in talkspace, and although there hasn't been a hell of lot of edits, I'm not sure if they are actually interested in building an encyclopaedia, or just trolling talkpages, like diffs #6 & 7. There is a BLP violation against McCain here. There certainly appears to be a tendency towards battleground language, including taunting/baiting, being displayed, which is behaviour that falls under AP2 and EE, IMO. SaintAviator has received a AP2 warning and commented on an EE Arb case, so the warnings are good as far as I am concerned. There are also the diff #3 claims about VM forming a cabal off-wiki, which is a rather serious accusation of meatpuppetry, even if made on SaintAviator's own talk page. I haven't seen anywhere that evidence of this has been brought to ANI, so SaintAviator needs to either point to the place where that was found to have occurred, submit a detailed report citing evidence so the claim can be tested, or withdraw those allegations and not repeat them. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:43, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
    • Some of User:SaintAviator's talk page comments put him in a bad light. Our task here is to say whether it constitutes talk page disruption. He does not edit the related articles very much, so it's only a talk page problem. I predict that if he keeps on trying to shoot himself in the foot, he will eventually succeed. For now I would say that he hasn't reached the point of needing a sanction, so I would close this with no action. The comments in this request about the seven year old WP:EEML case have little relevance, since sanctions under that case have expired long ago. EdJohnston (talk) 03:48, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
    • Agree. Not enough here. I suggest SaintAviator be more careful with their comments referring to other editors, and particularly that they think twice about making off-the-cuff inappropriate comments about living persons, such as the one they made about McCain at diff #2. I'll close this with no action if no-one else chimes in with a dissenting view. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:07, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

    Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Mooretwin

    User:Mooretwin's topic ban from the Troubles is lifted on appeal. EdJohnston (talk) 04:46, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
    Appealing user
    Mooretwin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Mooretwin (talk) 14:54, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
    Sanction being appealed
    Indefinite topic ban on articles, discussions, and other content related to The Troubles, the Ulster banner and British baronets, imposed here on 10 February 2012. The decision allowed for an appeal after six months and every six months thereafter.
    Administrator imposing the sanction
    T. Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
    Notification of that administrator
    notified here.

    Statement by Mooretwin

    I have abided by this topic ban for four years and ten months. I believe I have appealed it on three previous occasions (though unfortunately I am unable to find the logs). The last appeal I would estimate was over a year ago. I come again humbly to appeal for a fourth time, as I believe that I have more than served my time (almost five years now). In this near-five-year period I have not engaged in edit wars, I have not been sanctioned, I have 'behaved'. I found myself involved in one dispute, which I sought to resolve through dispute resolution. I have done a lot of work in improving rugby league articles, which earned me a nice compliment on my Talk Page. I undertake to continue to edit constructively and to avoid edit-warring.

    Statement by T. Canens

    I'm not opposed to a trial lifting. T. Canens (talk) 08:58, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

    Statement by (involved editor 1)

    Statement by (involved editor 2)

    Statement by uninvolved GoodDay

    Mooretwin has shown outstanding behavior, concerning the topic-in-question. IMHO, After (nearly) 5 years, this topic-ban has morphed from a preventative measure to a punitive one. It's time to lift the topic ban. GoodDay (talk) 15:21, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

    Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Mooretwin

    Result of the appeal by Mooretwin

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • In your December 2014 appeal, you were advised to demonstrate that you can contribute on other (non-Troubles) controversial articles and negotiate with others on difficult subjects before applying again to have the ban lifted. You were also directed to the result section of your 2013 AE appeal and to try to follow the advice there. Can you point to your work on controversial articles or how you have followed the road map outlined in the result of your 2013 appeal? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:45, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
    • I've looked back as far as August and can't see anything to be concerned about, although he rarely is involved in talk space. He did behave pretty well in the RfC discussion, and T. Canens appears to be ok with a lift of the TBAN. I expect we'll see him back here if he can't play well on the Troubles articles, but for now I think we can play out some more rope. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:13, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

    INeverCry

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning INeverCry

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:16, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    INeverCry (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBEE:
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 12/26 Personal attack and insult
    2. 12/26 Personal attack and insult
    3. 12/26 Personal attack and insult
    4. 12/26 Marking non-minor edits as minor, obviously on purpose
    5. Personal attack and insult
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    This is one of those things that needs to be nipped in the bud before it gets worse, since INeverCry basically just opened up a discussion with personal attacks and insults. You start off by insulting people, chances are the discussion won't get better.

    I do want to note that I find being called "anti-Russian" very insulting. It's basically like calling somebody racist. And it's total nonsense. So yeah, it's an egregious personal attack.

    Discussion concerning INeverCry

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by INeverCry

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning INeverCry

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.