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Blacklist entry for "Category:User:" pages

Every so often, some user creates a personal category called "Category:User:Foo" (replace foo with the user's username). I propose blacklisting this patern, with a message along the lines of User:Od Mishehu/cat-user-prefix. Any issues? עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 11:45, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

• @Od Mishehu This is a good idea, as such categories are inappropriate. VegaDark (talk) 06:14, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

username

Namaste.... Sir I want change my username

I want my new username> Dinkar Singh Badal

So please help me Thank you. Dinkar70 (talk) 19:12, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Changing username. Given that you only have one edit I'd suggest just registering another account under the name you want to use. Someone else has already registered an account under the name of Dinkar Singh Badal though so you may need to choose something else. Hut 8.5 21:42, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Request for comment on our proposed policy for users remaining in redlinked categories

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following list: Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

There are currently several discussions (1, 2, 3, 4) ongoing as to whether Wikipedians should be allowed to keep redlinked user categories on their user (and user talk) pages. This was prompted by User:Rathfelder creating numerous categories that were previously redlinked, and placing them in Category:Idiosyncratic Wikipedians. All of the categories created in this manner that have been brought to CfD thus far have been deleted (for violating this guideline) since the vast majority of them are some form of joke category. Rathfelder's rationale behind this action was that he is working on redlink cleanup, and that these categories remaining as redlinks are impeding that process: see reports such as Special:WantedCategories, with a large number of previously deleted user categories. It has been suggested in a series of early IAR CfD closures that this issue needs a centralized RfC to determine what our course of action should be on this issue.

Currently, the status quo is that anything violating WP:USERCAT will be deleted at CfD, and sometimes the categories are emptied when such a CfD closes. In my experience administrators closing such discussions are not always familiar with user categories and often follow the process as they would any other CfD and empty them. Other times, the category is deleted and all users remain. There has never been an official policy ruling on this - the idea, I suppose, is that the categories being deleted alone is sufficiently within policy, while users are not required to remove themselves from the category per our much more lax guidelines in the userspace. This has mostly worked out up until now - Rathfelder was recently blocked for removing a redlinked category from a user page, while in the past users have been threatened with a block (and ultimately their page protected from editing) for re-adding themselves to user categories (a bit different from the issue at hand as that was a container category, but I would submit is still similar).

I should note that, as with any category, it being red-linked alone is not really the concern here. For instance, if there were a redlink on a user's page titled Category:Wikipedians interested in collaborating on topics related to Oregon State University (Something I've been thinking about creating and placing myself in recently), that category would not violate this guideline as it would be likely to help foster collaboration - the best way to deal with this would be to actually create the category. The main concern here is a user placing one's self in a category that's already been determined by consensus at CfD that the category is not helpful to the project - For instance, all the users in Category:Wikipedians who oppose censorship remaining in the category after a CfD resulting in delete.

It appears that we have come to the point where we need some guidance as to the community's thoughts on this issue. In my view, there are four schools of thought on this:

1. "Redlinks on userspace pages for categories that have previously been deleted are disruptive to encyclopedia building because they hinder those working on redlink cleanup, and we should empty these categories at the conclusion of CfDs and continue to remove userspace pages from them if they are added. Any user violating consensus by re-adding such categories should be warned, and, if necessary, have their userpage protected from editing."
2. "Redlinks on userspace pages for categories that have previously been deleted are disruptive to encyclopedia building because they hinder those working on redlink cleanup, but punishing users for re-adding these categories is going too far. It should be standard practice to remove users from these categories at the conclusion of a CfD, and perhaps periodically purge such categories, but there should be no repercussions for users who want to re-add the category to their page."
3. "We should more or less maintain the status quo - Anytime a CfD for a user category is closed, it will not be emptied. Redlinks at the bottom of their userspace pages are not disruptive to the project."
4. "I disagree with the central reasoning that these types of categories should not exist in the first place. We should get rid of the redlinks by making them blue and modify WP:USERCAT to allow for as much leeway as userspace content traditionally has. User categories should not need to directly benefit the encyclopedia as a precondition for existing."

Thanks, VegaDark (talk) 22:03, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

• 2, 1, NOT 4 - Personally I sympathize with Rathfelder, in that I too have done redlink cleanup and been very annoyed by the large number of user categories that show up. I don't agree with his solution - turning them blue and throwing WP:USERCAT into the wind, but having been part of the process of making user categories more encyclopedic for over a decade now, I know how much drama this issue has the possibility of creating. I believe 2 is a compromise position - the users who specifically re-add themselves to previously deleted user categories after an initial emptying will likely be few and far between, and should have a minimal impact on redlink cleanup reports. Furthermore, I would recommend a bot go through and clear out userpages in redlinked categories that have a history of deletion citing anything other than C1 as their deletion reasoning, ideally every 3-4 months to help out those doing redlink cleanup. This solution seems to result in the most number of people happy - redlink impact would be minimal while those who add such links to their userpage will be able to continue to do so (and can mark their page for bots to ignore it if they don't want them removed). Furthermore, I will say that leaving users in redlinked categories has, in my experience, made it far more likely that a category will be re-created against consensus. One only need look through my deletion log and search for "G4" to find numerous re-creations of previously deleted content. In my view maintaining the status quo creates more administrative work in this regard. VegaDark (talk) 22:03, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

• I am quite happy with a compromise solution. But I would like the policy made clearer. I was blocked for doing what I thought I was supposed to do. There are clearly a small number of editors who get very excited about this issue. But a much larger number who don't. I think my Idiosyncratic category has actually helped, rather to my surprise. I don't object to people who want to make jokes. And as far as interfering with the redlink cleanup - categories that start "Wikipedians ..." are not really a problem, because it's easy to see what is going on. It's the others - like {{:Category:Valyarin Wicipedyanar]], for example. Most of those, as best I can judge, are created by accident. So some sort of automated trawl would probably work quite well with them.Rathfelder (talk) 22:20, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

• I've discovered that this debate is very long running. See comments from 2006 at Misplaced Pages talk:Special:WantedCategories.Rathfelder (talk) 22:31, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

• 3, and relax WP:USERCAT. The category system is pretty poor, from the design. Few Wikipedians understand them, few poeple use them . Allowing Wikipedians to play with categorisation in userspace has educational benefits. A major, long unfillied request is Misplaced Pages:Category intersection. In the mean time, what is the point of tight control? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:49, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Sure, the categorization system that exists right now has design flaws — and yes, there are ways in which it could be made better. But until those alternatives are actually implemented, we're stuck working within the system we've got right now. Category intersection was first proposed a full decade ago — if there's a reason it still hasn't been implemented as of today, that reason is very likely to be that it was found to be not feasible for technical reasons, such as excessively long search times and/or excessive server load to actually generate the intersections, and not that people are just dawdling on a thing that could actually be quick-fixed in three seconds flat. But within the system we've got right now, redlinked user categories are actively kludging a necessary maintenance project in an undesirable and unproductive way. If and when category intersection is actually implemented and the categorization system is radically overhauled as a result, then we can revisit whether that changes the case for option #3 or not — but under the system we have today, option #3 is disrupting the proper functioning and maintenance of the system we have today. Bearcat (talk) 17:48, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Massive design flaws, and massive technical neglect. But that aside, it sounds more like it is the maintenance that is a kludge. If maintenance assist tools can't work around userspace categories beginning with "Wikipedias who", then it is the incompetence in maintenance that needs attention. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:20, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Firstly, not all "userspace" categories have the words "Wikipedians" in them at all — for just a few examples, look at Category:Laptop and Category:Vanity and Category:Templatonian footballers. And for another, there is no technical way to prevent somebody from erroneously adding a userspace category to one or more articlespace pages — and so simply adding a filter to the tool to prevent detection of any category that has the word "Wikipedians" in it would make it virtually impossible to find or correct that error. The only way the interference can be avoided entirely is for redlinked user categories to be depopulated, period. Bearcat (talk) 14:25, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps, all userspace categories should begin with "Wikipedians who", or should contain the word ""Wikipedians". I've seen a number of userrcategories renamed this way, and haven't seen a problem with it. Category:Wikipedian Hyphen Luddites for example. Some userspace categories that have been deleted were defensible, but were deleted due to unrepresentative CfD regulars' biases. Most were just stupid. Not distinguishing between the stupid and the defensible has led to this trouble. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:04, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

This is something we can agree on, including the babel categories. We should have every user category have "Wikipedian" in it. VegaDark (talk) 08:25, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

VegaDark, this seems too easy. Has it ever been proposed or attempted before. My experience with too-easy proposals is that they turn out to be overly simplistic. Let me know if you want to take this further. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:53, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm in to assist. I assume it would be as simple as getting consensus on this talk page and then changing the user policy for non-babel categories. Since babel categories are so widely used, including those in the policy (which I think it should) would probably generate a lot of discussion. That might deserve its own RfC (also on this page?). I'd also like to go through the entire user category system to see if there are any outliers that this wouldn't work with to make sure the proposed wording wouldn't have any issues. VegaDark (talk) 07:29, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

"and so simply adding a filter to the tool to prevent detection of any category that has the word "Wikipedians" in it would make it virtually impossible to find or correct that error" Sorry, I don't understand this. Is it important? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:04, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

"The only way the interference can be avoided entirely is for redlinked user categories to be depopulated, period"? Such bald faced absolutism? Acceptable usercategories can be bluelinked. With a relaxation of USERCAT restrictions, there is no need to protest with user-redlinked categories, and then we can be rid of redlinked categories.

• On reflection, definitely 4. While 3 should be an option, and technical problems solved technically, 4 is a better solution immediately implementable. I note that the whole problem, especially protest categories, are a direct consequence of an overly titght set of restrictions on usercategories. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:04, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• NOT 1 or 4, prefer 3, could live with 2. For things that don't really matter all that much, the status quo is often best. Option 2 wouldn't bother me, but it would bother people who don't know about NOBOTS, and likely lead to pointless arguments every few months if you're really going to periodically clear them out by bot. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:10, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

  Arguably the bot's edit summary could include something like "Don't want me bothering your page again? Add {{NOBOTS}}" to address that. VegaDark (talk) 02:04, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

• I think your options, unfortunately, don't provide enough nuance to account for the different varieties of potentially-deletable usercats. A red-linked joke category is relatively harmless, and can remain without hurting much. A deleted usercat that was disruptive, on the other hand, should be emptied as soon as the discussion is closed. - Eureka Lott 01:02, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

  @Eureka Lott Feel free to add your own. I think it adds a level of subjectiveness to force a closing admin to determine what is disruptive or not, however. That could pose more problems than it solves. Perhaps "Users should only be removed from redlinked categories if the redlinked category would meet speedy deletion criteria G1, G3, G5, G6, G9, G10, or G11"? I think that would be equivalent to a "2.5" and would be an improvement from the status quo, IMO. VegaDark (talk) 01:56, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

  The deleted disruptive usercat recreation should be treated as WP:Disruption, remedied with caution, warning and blocking, not treated as a CfD maintenance issue. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:15, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

  The speedy deletion criteria would help in some instances, but don't always apply to disruptive user categories. WP:USERCAT#DIVISIVE has a couple of good examples. If similar categories were created today, they'd have to go through CFD, not speedy deletion. - Eureka Lott 21:41, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

• For now I sympathize the most with option 3 or else option 2 as it causes the least annoyance among editors about interference in their own user space. However before making a final call it is important to know how much hindrance these categories really cause for maintenance. Is it perhaps too naïeve of me to think that while cleaning up redlinked categories you can just skip and ignore user categories? @VegaDark and Rathfelder: Are you willing to clarify this further? Marcocapelle (talk) 08:07, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

• There are many thousands of red categories. I don't want to spend a long term trying to work out what the score is with something which is actually a joke, which is why I think its better for the categories to be created rather than to be left as red links. It's much less of a problem if it is clear from the red link that it relates to a user page, because all that appears in the category list is the redlink. I can happily ignore everything which starts "Wikipedians who ...", but it is not so obvious what Category:Fictional editors is. I favour a periodical purge, because quite apart from the jokes there are many hundreds more red links on user pages which, as far as I can tell, are mistakes made by new editors on user pages which have been abandoned. But I am not in favour of sanctions against editors who are very attached to their red links Rathfelder (talk) 20:31, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

• I'm suddenly realizing now that I misread option 3. Maintaining the status quo would mean something different for me. Let's call this option 5 then. It means we don't actively turn redlinked user categories to bluelinked user categories for maintenance purposes, in order to avoid flooding CfD with them. It should only be CfD'd when a user who has the category tag on the user page decides to make it a bluelinked category. If someone else than a user him/herself did this, the category should be reverted to a redlinked category without further discussion. This is most in line with the recent speedy closures of User:BrownHairedGirl. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:32, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
• Propose new Option 0: similar to 1 or 2, but with modification. I speedy-closed the CFDs because CFD was becoming flooded with multiple debates which were all essentially about the same question of principle. Per WP:MULTI, that's a bad way to resolve any issue. Centralised discussion is preferable, so many thanks to VegaDark for starting this RFC.
  I should also note that I have a stake in this issue: I have had two red-linked categories on my userpage for about ten years, created as sarcastic responses to the then proliferation of the sort of user categories which were subsequently purged.
  However, that joke is now really old. It's tired and irrelevant. It's time I removed those red-linked categories, which I will do after this edit. (done)
  I had previously defended these red-linked categories on the grounds that a) humour is good for us all, b) they do no harm, and c) we give editors a fair bit of leeway in constructing their userpages. But I have changed my mind because I now think point B is wrong: these categories do cause harm, by impeding the work of editors such as Rathfelder who are trying eliminate the backlog of redlinked categories.
  That work is crucially important to maintaining the integrity of the category system, and placing obstacles in its way disrupts the maintenance of categories. That harms editors whose time is wasted, and above all it disrupts readers who are deprived of the navigational benefits of working categories. If editors want to create jokes on their userpages, then feel free to write text, add an image, or create/add a userbox -- but sorry, mucking with the category system causes harm which makes your joke unfunny.
  For me, that's the crucial point here. A joke ceases to be a joke when it disproportionately amplified or disrupts things which actually matter. The witticism which may be appropriate as an aside to a co-worker or family member becomes disruptive when shouted out at a team meeting or a family gathering. This is a sort of WP:JERK issue, and those editors (like me) who created these red-linked categories have been unaware that they have been a bit of a jerk.
  I don't think that Rathfelder's creation of all these pointless categories was a good idea, but I do want to congratulate Rathfelder for identifying a real problem and bringing it to a head. I'd prefer that they had chosen another method of doing so, such an opening an RFC, but the intention was good. So let's take the opportunity to actually resolve the underlying problem -- which is that redlinked user categories are disruptive
  So I propose Option 0: Red-linked categories on userpages should be removed, because they disrupt the category system by impeding the work of editors who maintain categories by eliminating redlinks. Editors who want to signal their views, interests or jokes in ways which do not comply with WP:USERCAT should use userboxes, text or images on their userapage, but not red-linked categories. Any editor may remove a red-linked category from a userpage, just as they can do when userpages are categorised in mainspace categories. Editors who repeatedly add red-linked categories to their userpages may be subject to escalating warnings in the usual way. As with any other form of disruptive editing, editors who persist in this disruptive conduct despite warnings may face sanctions.
  Obviously, that leaves open the possibility that a redlinked category may be restored and turned blue (either by the owner of the userpage or by another editor), in which case the merits of the category can be considered in the usual ways: CFD, or speedy deletion in some cases. (The speedy criteria which might apply include WP:G1 for patent nonsense such as this one of mine, WP:G2 for tests (e.g. "zxcvbnmmasdfghjkli"), WP:G3 for vandalism or hoaxes, WP;G4 for re-creations after CFD, WP:G10 for attack categories (e.g. "Wikipedians who think X is a scumbag") etc. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:46, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
  • If the category system has such integrity, why is it so much effort to maintain it? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:07, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
    • @SmokeyJoe: Because Misplaced Pages is a work-in-progress, and the huge volume of constant changes needs to be monitored to ensure that they work. Like eveything else on en.wp, categories are far from perfect ... but ongoing maintenance ensures that they don't degrade as changes are made. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:28, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
    • For the same reasons as everything else in Misplaced Pages, including actual articles, require effort to maintain them. Because Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia that anybody can edit, lots of things get created on here that genuinely should not be kept — which means that maintaining Misplaced Pages's integrity does depend on cleaning that stuff up when it happens. Bearcat (talk) 17:34, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
      • No BHG, Bearcat, it is because the category system doesn't work as required. You are supporting a sandcastle in the rain. Articles require nowhere near this amount of effort to maintain, every Wikipedian understands article maintenance. MOS issues are not maintenance. The category system needs attention, and many of the red linked categories are repopulated in protest. A draconian authoritarian response to the protest against overenthusiastic usercat deletionism is not a healthy response. Category:Neutral good Wikipedians, for example, was a quiet network of similarly thinking people, until it was deleted by arrogant ignorance. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:48, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
        • Articles require far more effort to maintain than you seem to think they do; MOS is not the only kind of maintenance that articles actually have to undergo: content disputes, NPOV issues, the creation of outright hoaxes, the perennial problem of people confusing Misplaced Pages with a free PR database where they're entitled to post their own résumés, are just some examples of the many other problems that result in article maintenance taking up a lot more editor time and energy, on the whole, than category maintenance actually does. Just as an example, AFD is having a good day if the number of articles listed for deletion is below 100; CFD is having a bad day if the number of categories for deletion exceeds 10. And even the tag-based category intersection system you favour would still require maintenance — there would still be the issue of people adding articlespace category tags to userspace pages, there would still be the issue of the creation of unwanted category tags such as for hair colour or eye colour, there would still be spelling errors to fix (e.g. somebody tagging 24 Sussex Drive as "Ottowa" instead of "Ottawa"), there would still be the disruptive application of category tags to articles that don't belong in those categories (e.g. Justin Bieber getting the "LGBT" tag), and on and so forth. The system would not be maintenance-free; it would just change how the maintenance processes are structured. Bearcat (talk) 14:45, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Just for clarification, Option 0 differs from option 1 solely in the fact that it gives editors permission to remove redlinked categories from a userspace page, even if the category has never gone through the CfD process? (whereas option 1 would only allow removal of categories that have been discussed), correct? VegaDark (talk) 20:37, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
    • • • • Bearcat, I did think I needed to clarify that when writing it, I must have been rushed. Existing articles are fairly self-maintaining. I watchlist a great many articles, and problem edits are very infrequent. I meant to exclude new articles, which you mention. My solution to that would be to prevent new article creation until the user is autoconfirmed (Misplaced Pages:ACTRIAL). Most of the remaining challenges are due to NPOV disputes. As previously posted, I am warming to the idea of removing all redlinks, on condition of more tolerance of bluelinked usercategories. Only a small proportion of userspace redlinked categories would be suitable for bluelinking, but some definitely. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:51, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
• Support removing userpages from redlinked user categories as things currently stand; qualified support for option #3 if there can be a programming change to reduce their disruptiveness. Leaving users in redlinked user categories actively interferes with an important ongoing maintenance project, namely by cluttering up Special:WantedCategories with kludge that can never be cleaned up or created. And it's not helpful to just say "the people working on that project should just ignore the user categories and concentrate on the article cats", either: the wanted-categories report only picks up 5,000 redlinked categories, while anything from 5,001 on remains hidden until such time as it's dropped below #5,000 — and the backlog is packed right up to and past the 5,000 cutoff, which means the user-category kludge is actually causing mainspace categories to not get detected, and so "just work around them" is not the answer.
  So if, and only if, the redlinked-category tools are reprogrammed to exclude userspace categories from appearing as "wanted categories" at all and their existence is no longer disrupting an important maintenance task, then I'd be willing to support option #3. But if that isn't and/or can't be done (e.g. it may very well be functionally impossible to program the server to distinguish a redlinked category that's intended for userspace from one that's intended for mainspace — frex, redlinked user categories don't always actually contain the word "Wikipedians"), then the policy has to be some form of removal, because the people working on that project should not be forced to put up with unresolvable kludge in their project queue. Bearcat (talk) 17:34, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
• This discussion basically involves a trade-off between different stakeholders and interests:

A) editors who want to keep their relative freedom in their own user space;

B) editors working in maintenance like User:Rathfelder;

C) the integrity of the (visible) category tree;

D) avoiding that CfD gets flooded by user categories.

Initially I was hoping that the maintenance aspect (#B) would be less of a problem, I wasn't sure however, and with the recent comments it seems like that this should on the contrary have a high weight. That reduces the solution space to only the two most extreme solutions, #1 (or #0) and #4, despite the fact many of us don't want to make a choice for an extreme solution (see many votes for #2 and #3 in the early phase of the discussion). If we have to choose this way, I would actually want to reconsider #4 as opted by Rathfelder. Option 4 is obviously better than option 1 with respect to interests A and D, it is neutral with respect to interest B, and if maintenance people keep the nonsense categories separate in the tree (as Rathfelder did), then it is not a problem to interest C either. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:12, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

• Option 4 would be a slap in the face for stakeholder E) People who are here to build an improve an encyclopedia, want to reinforce that Misplaced Pages is not a social network, and want to maintain a semblance of value towards that end for the user category system. VegaDark (talk) 20:33, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

• Category:Idiosyncratic_Wikipedians currently contains subcats with only one or two users (with one exception containing 3 users). That doesn't sound like social networking. We can also add a rule if the number of users in such a category becomes 5 or more (i.e. if there is a real suspicion of social networking) that the categories may be nominated for deletion after all (we might expand speedy deletion criteria for this purpose). Marcocapelle (talk) 10:25, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

• Editor networking via categories is long since hampered by the intolerance of the CfD clique. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:39, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

• So? Do you agree or disagree with the view that this is not a case of social networking? Marcocapelle (talk) 10:48, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

• • • • • I'm not really sure, but I don't think there is much project-unrelated networking. There looks to be a lot of random stuff, always has been, and genuine good-faith, even if I'll-considered, attempts at project-related networking gets caught up with it. Think the solution is to be more tolerant of user categories and leave them bluelinked, unless and until it is agreed that they are actually divisive, or for some external non-project purpose. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:55, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks I like your description of this being "random stuff", implying it's neither project related nor social network related, it's just without purpose. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:54, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Option 1. If we delete a category, then it should remain empty. Creating it as a redlinked category may be as bad as creating it as a blue-linked category, withtthe additional disadvantage that it hinders dealing with other red-linked categories. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:29, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

• • I don't think we are hearing the voice of those who might defend the current policy like User:John Carter, Anthony Bradbury, Sitush, Bbb23, LadyofShalott, Drmies, pablo, Roxy the dog™. Ottawahitech, Jeh and Good Ol’factory may also have something to say Rathfelder 12:42, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
    • Whoever did this, I understand that pinging doesn't work if you don't sign the post with four tildas. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:39, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
      • It was User:Rathfelder. While normally this would probably be disapproved as canvassing, in this case I also have the feeling that participation in the discussion so far is a bit skewed and needs more balance. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:43, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
        • sorry. And I am actually canvassing people who I suspect don't agree with me. Rathfelder 12:42, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
          • As documented at Misplaced Pages:Notifications#Triggering_events, the post containing the userpage links itself must be signed. I.e. User:John Carter, Anthony Bradbury, Sitush, Bbb23, LadyofShalott, Drmies, pablo, Roxy the dog™. Ottawahitech, Jeh and Good Ol’factory. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:59, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
    • So if we are pinging specific users, is there any objection to me pinging some who I think would be interested in this RfC? Normally I'd be against this, but the damage is already done, and I feel it's a bit one sided to be pinging users who you believe "will balance out the debate" from the direction it was heading without canvassing. Users I would be interested in pinging are (I won't link them for now): User:Black Falcon (one of the most prolific users dealing with user categories in Misplaced Pages history), User:Mike Selinker, User:^demon, User:After Midnight, User:MZMcBride, User:Horologium, Kbdank71, User:MER-C, User:CBM (all substantial past UCFD participation), User:K.e.coffman, User:The Rambling Man, User:Peterkingiron, User:Carlossuarez46 (all 4 with recent user category discussion participation). And no, I don't know how any of them feel on this specific issue - as far as I know this has barely been discussed before. VegaDark (talk) 07:57, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
      • No objection. All of those editors are logical contributors. Ping them all. Except maybe Kdbank71 Kbdank71, I don't believe he likes notifications. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:37, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
        • Ok, I'll link them, except Kdbank71. VegaDark (talk) 07:29, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
          • But if you did, it would be User:Kbdank71. I suspect Kris is on an extended skiing holiday anyway. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:01, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
      • Nope, not even remotely interested 😂 ^demon 18:25, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
• 3. It seems to to be the solution which creates problems for the fewest people. I'd happily support a tech change to make things easier on those who have problems at Special:WantedCategories. I think we should seriously consider relaxing WP:USERCAT somewhat. A wiki is supposed to be free form, after all. We should probably encourage people to include "Wikipedians" in any user category, but I'd also support a software change to mark user categories somehow. I wouldn't be opposed to some version of 2, provided there was an opt-out (i.e. bot exclusion, marked in edit summary and preferably talk page message). 1 seems to desert everything we stand for as an open community. Tamwin (talk) 16:33, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
• Option 2 or 0. As someone who has had an on-and-off relationship with Special:WantedCategories, I often feel unmotivated, if not right-out discouraged to bother with the red-linked categories backlog when I know I'll be needing to delve into a sea of nonsense that I feel I can do nothing about. I can't empty the deleted user categories because someone will have a fit; I can't (and won't) create them because they don't facilitate the collaboration on or to the benefit of the project. All that does is encourage me to walk away and leave the backlog to continue to rot, instead of cutting it down. It's time to give this silliness a rest and not impede on the work of other Wikipedians who actually want to put the effort in. — ξ 04:31, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

• Vote #3 or #2 and NOT 1 or 4 – because they are too strong restricting light jokes. While I can undertstand that it is annoying for Cat-cleanups, I suggest this can somehow be made technically easier, because non-existent "red" cats are only allowed on user/talk pages (see also 2 sections below). Also "Redlinks on userspace pages for categories" is a bit of an unlucky wording, because it addresses red links, not the categorization in the first place, so it would even forbid to put Category:Wikipedians with red-linked categories on their user talk page as a link on your userpage. --.js 17:21, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

• FWIW, I had already seen this discussion before the ping. I try to stay away from cat discussions because the entire system is flawed and it is an area that is generally controlled by obsessive types whom I simply can't understand and who seem to enjoy fiddling back and forth with specious wording day in, day out. If I had my way, I'd try to find a replacement for the entire system. That said, I don't see what harm comes from redlinked usercats. If people find them irritating then go do something else, just as I generally do when it comes to cat discussions. - Sitush (talk) 13:09, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

The harm that comes from redlinked user categories is that they actively interfere with the proper functioning of the project to clean up the backlog of redlinked article categories; as I noted above, Special:WantedCategories only has the ability to detect 5,000 redlinked categories and then just stops — which means that if the 5,000 limit is getting cluttered up by redlinked user categories, then article categories that do need to get detected and dealt with aren't, because the large number of user categories in the list is crowding them out. Bearcat (talk) 14:15, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Is it not possible for Special:WantedCategories to search specific namespaces?  pablo 15:45, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

User categories aren't a different namespace from article categories — they're all in the Category: namespace. I suppose, in theory, the creation of a new "user category" namespace, and the migration to it of all user categories whether bluelinked or redlinked, would be another potential solution to this issue — and then user category rules could be revisited since they'd be playing in their own separate sandbox and wouldn't be getting muddled with mainspace categories or interfering with mainspace maintenance anymore — but I'm not familiar enough with the programming side to know if that could be done easily or not. I am sure that it's possible, as we have seen the creation and introduction of new namespaces that didn't previously exist, though I know nothing of how much work it takes — but I've posted to Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical) to ask if anybody could clarify how easy or complicated it might be to move forward with that. Bearcat (talk) 17:29, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

• Comment. I was notified of this discussion from the outset. Sitush makes points in a way designed to be civil and non pointy. I just want the outcome here to really really annoy Rathfelder. Roxy the dog. bark 13:40, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

I would like to find a solution that does not annoy Roxy the dog.. Rathfelder 16:02, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Touche. Roxy the dog. bark 18:16, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

• • Just to add to the comment by User:Sitush: I try to avoid participating in anything category-related. I feel it is a waste of time:
    • The same discussions go on and on, no true consensus is reached, and little gets documented for the next generation of participants
    • The above is viewed as a a good thing by the small clique who basically wp:owns the category space, who then make decisions with no one opposing
    • Some members of the clique are proud to tell others that they do not notify editors of discussions
    • editors who are not part of the clique are sometimes ganged up on and banned, supposedly by consensus Ottawahitech (talk)please ping me
• I suppose I'm with Ottawahitech in that I think these are a waste of time. I'm a proud member of four redlinked categories, none of which are really a joke--even "Wikipedian sex workers" isn't really funny, or not really intended to be funny, and I'm sad to see that these days Jaguar and I are the only ones listed. Have the Wikipedian sex workers gone underground? Is it more an unpaid volunteering effort these days, like so much of our work? Anyway, I don't see the big deal, I don't understand what there is to clean up, I don't understand why we're tinkering with categories (an imperfect system if only because reality isn't categorized so easily). We're a collaborative project where we should find ways to get along. This technocratic thinking does not do that. Drmies (talk) 19:14, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

"What there is to clean up" is the hundreds upon hundreds of redlinked user categories that are permanently cluttering up Special:WantedCategories, in turn preventing the proper detection and resolution of articlespace categories because that queue has a size limit on it. Whatever solution is implemented here, it has to get user categories off Special:WantedCategories from now on, so "just do nothing" is not an option. Bearcat (talk) 20:12, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Sorry Bearcat, but "doing nothing" is a perfectly fine option with me. I envision a society where all people get along and have affordable health care, and where not everything has to be centralized--a world in which Misplaced Pages editors have Misplaced Pages editor friends with slightly different skill sets who help each other out. For instance, my good friend LadyofShalott frequently makes categories for me, or categorizes things for me, in articles I write. But my Misplaced Pages is partly a pipe dream. And "Wikipedians who are not a Wikipedian" carries much meaning, for instance--meaning which you or others may not be aware of, and that's fine. We're a big tent. Drmies (talk) 15:21, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

You're entirely missing the point of what I said. The problem here was, is and continues to be that redlinked user categories are cluttering up and interfering with the proper functioning of the tools that exist to deal with the important maintenance issue of redlinked article categories. If there were a way to segregate user categories into a separate namespace, so that the "redlinked category" tools could be reprogrammed to simply ignore them, then "do nothing" would be a perfectly acceptable option — but until that actually happens, "do nothing" just means "tough titties, the people who work with that maintenance queue just have to live with having it cluttered up by uncreatable and unremovable categories". But that's not acceptable: something has to be done which enables redlinked user categories to be cleared from the redlinked article categories queue. Bearcat (talk) 23:20, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• Probably option 3, except for disruptive categories. (Category:Nazi Wikipedians, which I certainly hope is red and empty.) For one thing, I don't see why a red category Template:Fooian Wikipedians is better or worse than one containing the text "Fooian Wikipedians" with no links. (If you check, you'll see I recently nominated a real category for deletion for being non-defining, but also having no description.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:43, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Again, redlinked user categories get detected by the redlinked category tools — which means that they are disruptive to the project, because they're actively interfering with a necessary maintenance tool. Any solution that gets userpage categories entirely and permanently off of Special:WantedCategories would be fine — but no solution that fails to do that is acceptable at all. Bearcat (talk) 20:10, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Just to prove a point to myself, I have just visited Special:WantedCategories and sorted out perhaps 50-60 of the redlinks. While there are user cats in there, the number of redlinked sock cats looks just as high, and despite both of them there are plenty of other cats visible and fixable. I'm sure at some point in the distant future there might be 5000 user cats at the head of the list but it is nothing like that at the moment. Presumably I am missing something here? - Sitush (talk) 22:09, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

You clearly scanned only a portion of the list, not the whole thing, because there are far more of them than you seem to think — especially later in the list when the number of entries per category is actually down to two or one rather than the beginning where it's in the 20s and 30s — and as I've already noted more than once above, not all user categories even necessarily have the word "Wikipedians" in them at all, so even for the portion that you did look at you almost certainly saw more than you think you did. And the correct number of user categories on that list is and remains zero, and there can be no solution to this problem which amounts to "tough beans, just work around them and live with it" — the solution has to find a way to get the number down to zero. Bearcat (talk) 22:16, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

It seems to me the problem here is with the 'Tool'. Fix the tool and stop bothering wikipedians. Roxy the dog. bark 22:29, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

No, I didn't. I went through to 4500-5000 and started there, randomly working backwards. Nor did I base it on having "Wikipedians" at the start - indeed, I clicked on some that were user cats and did not. Give me some credit for not being totally stupid. I don't disagree that some solution may be necessary at some point - I even intimated that above - but this issue does seem like an obsessive's paradise. And I count myself as a mild obsessive, eg: I quite often search and replace instances of "passed away" (WP:EUPHEMISM) but I don't make a song and dance out of it. - Sitush (talk) 00:26, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

The tool is not "fixable" in any way that would prevent user categories from still cluttering it up, because it's not possible make the system able to distinguish a redlinked user category from a redlinked content category. And just for the record, the people who work with the tool are also Wikipedians whose right not to be "bothered" is not one fraction of one iota less than your right not to be "bothered" — so if you think "don't bother wikipedians" was some kind of trump card that ends the need for something to be done about this, then I'm sorry to tell you that it's not. Bearcat (talk) 22:38, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

The problem is not just the tool. I don't use the tool. I work from the alphabetical list of categories which gives me a different view, particularly of spelling and punctuation mistakes in applying categories. Rathfelder 23:47, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

• I am getting the feeling that the problem here is driven by deletion (converting from blue to red) of categories wanted for some reason, but where the some reason is not valued by the CfD regulars. The fix to this could be:

• Modify Misplaced Pages:User_categories#Inappropriate_types_of_user_categories so as to:

Replace throughout "Categories" with "User-Categories", to emphasise that rules from usercategories are different to rules for mainspace categories.

• Remove "Categories that are too broadly or vaguely defined",

on the basis that this is subjective, and CfD-ers are not representative enough to judge, and because these categories are completely harmless if bluelinked. Instead, advise their creators on the benefit of more specific, less vaguely, defined categories.

• Remove "Categories that are overly narrow in scope",

as again this is subjective, and CfD regulars are non-representative. And, as usercategories, they are harmless. There probably is benefit, either in educating Wikipedians of the drawbacks of narrowc categories, or in helping provide impetus in demanding tehnical support for dynamic categorisation.

• Change "Categories which group users by advocacy of a position"

to refer only to positions "unrelated to Misplaced Pages"

• Change "Categories that are divisive, provocative, or otherwise disruptive"

by deleting "provocative". BRD is provocation. Provocation is a valid technique for engaging apathetic stonewallers.

• Remove "Categories that are jokes/nonsense",

again, subjective. If project related, there is a lot to be learned via jokes, and nonsense, if not WP:CSD#G1, is probably not nonsense.

The result will be a lot more bluelinked usercategories replacing redlinked user categories, solving the problem. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:19, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• I'd strongly oppose all those changes, and in fact make the criteria be "User categories must directly benefit the encyclopedia with an obvious usefulness toward grouping such users for collaborative purposes. If a category can be collaborative, it should have the most directly applicable name to accomplish the collaboration. For instance, Category:Wikipedians who like Star Wars or Category:Wikipedians interested in Star Wars should be merged to Category:Wikipedians interested in collaborating on topics related to Star Wars to make it clear and unambiguous the intent of the category is to find users specifically for improving the encyclopedia." VegaDark (talk) 01:43, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• So, you think categories have no role for editors, and you squeeze only harder, damn the consequences? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:14, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• I think that if our goal is to build an encyclopedia, we should act like it. People donate their hard earned money for Misplaced Pages to keep growing and improving. I genuinely think that if the general public saw the state of user categories before the current iteration of WP:USERCAT, or what would become of it after your proposed revisions, it would be very off-putting. It would be like donating to an organization you care about and finding out that some of the money went towards an office party where all they did was get drunk and make an ass out of themselves instead of the donation directly contributing to the organization's mission. I don't think we have to always be 100% improving the encyclopedia at every turn, but the thing is we already allow tremendous leeway in userspace. There's no user category namespace so these categories intermingle with mainspace categories, which to me is unacceptable unless they directly improve the encyclopedia. Even if we had a user category namespace, I would wish it to be centered around improving the encyclopedia, although I would grant it far more leeway than my current position. VegaDark (talk) 08:15, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• Comment. As it is extremely rare that a category should include user (or user talk) pages and article pages, what is needed is a separate type of category which is intended to include user and user talk pages; if a user or user talk page is in a category not in this group, it needs cleanup; if anything other than a user or user talk page is in a category in this group, it needs cleanup. That's a separate issue from red-linked category cleanup, but it's probably more important. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:42, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Agree, but I don't think that has ever been in doubt. A reader clicking on a visible mainspace category at the bottom of an article should be led to nothing other than other articles or further mainspace categories leading only to other articles. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:51, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
• I think I had a reasonable solution way above in the discussion, let me recap this more formally:

I. If editors consistently working to clean up Special:WantedCategories create user category pages based on redlinks at user pages (thus turning these redlinks blue), they should parent the created user category only to Category:Idiosyncratic Wikipedians.

II. User categories only in Category:Idiosyncratic Wikipedians are not eligible for deletion via CfD (except see IV).

III. If any editor desires to add another parent or remove Category:Idiosyncratic Wikipedians, they must do so via CfD.

IV. If the number of users in this kind of category is 5 or higher (suggesting the start of social networking), it is eligible for speedy deletion, which includes removing the links from the user pages.

III and IV are additional security measures, they aren't applicable in the current situation but they may become applicable in the future. By and large this addresses all issues mentioned in this discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:44, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• • I think there are many reasonable solutions. Let's look at yours...
    • I. Surely, if I am in the redlinked category Category:Wikipedians interested in collaborating on topics related to Oregon State University, and I intend to collaborate the topics, I may turn it blue? I'm not sure what (I) attempts to address, is it to stop pointy reactions to pointy self-referential redlinks? I am not sure, but I think we need a consideration of what existing category redlinks are OK to remain populated, but not OK to bluelink. I just reviewed some CfDs that turned populated usercategories red, 2007 to 2011. A lot were strongly disputed, and many !votes gave no rationale beyond pointing t this guideline, a guideline that I thing desperately needs a {{disputed}} tag.
    • II Why that category? A lot of actually good faith positively intentioned usercategories are not well characterised by "Idiosyncratic", meaning all about an individual, the opposite of networking. Single-member redlink categories I think have the least credibility. A different category name perhaps?
    • III Add another parent? You mean anyone who wants to categorise Category:Idiosyncratic Wikipedians? I'm not sure I understand.
    • IV Have you already differentiated "social networking" from "networking for project related purposes"? As above, usercategories are for networking, whether networking members together, or providing a network of editors avail to help in specific tasks?

I suspect I am nearly entirely confused. What problems are you seeking to solve? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:15, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• It may be helpful to read my contribution of 18:12, 8 January 2017 (UTC) and the follow-up discussion with User:VegaDark to see what problems it solves. Then your questions:

Question re I. It only applies when you are consistently working on cleaning up Special:WantedCategories, that is an important restriction.

Question re II. Fair enough to rename Category:Idiosyncratic Wikipedians. It should be clear that it's a maintenance category anyway.

Question re III. Not Category:Idiosyncratic Wikipedians but a created category (in step I) that is a child category of Category:Idiosyncratic Wikipedians. If that's not clear, the sentence should be rephrased.

Question re IV. If users find it useful to be taken out of maintenance space (in step III) its merits can be evaluated in CfD, nothing different from how it went previously. (Except, for the type of categories we are discussing right now, this would be an extremely unlikely scenario.) Also I don't mind if anyone knows a proper definition for "social networking" from "networking for project related purposes".

Hope this answers your questions more or less. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:27, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• There is an awful lot of weird stuff in Special:WantedCategories.

Q1. Why does anyone care? Why is it useful to peruse this list, and then to do anything about anything in there.

Assume a reasonable answer to Q1, some ideas, some old:

(#1) Restrict category creation to qualified editors. (will greatly assist mainspace category maintenance). Requested categories by non-qualified editors may be requested at CfD. NB. This in now way resticts editors from adding articles to categories, or removing them, those are article edits.

(#2) Relax USERCAT to allow anything that is claimed to assist the project in any way, including user collabroation, networking, support, even if hard to understand.

(#3) Have a bot remove all redlinked categories from all pages. The ability to be a member of an non-existent category is a technical bug of the category system. New categories have to be created before filling.

--SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:31, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• With your first line, "weird stuff" you're exactly on target. This is stuff that should not be cared about except that it seriously pollutes Special:WantedCategories. It's primarily a maintenance problem. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:27, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• What makes it "useful" to peruse that list, and then to do anything about anything in there, is that redlinked mainspace categories have to be either (a) created if they're genuinely useful and warranted, (b) corrected to point to the real category if they're misspelled or misnamed versions of other categories that already exist (people do not always categorize things correctly), or (c) get stripped from the article if they're neither of those things (such as somebody deliberately adding a nonsense category as a form of vandalism.) It's not useful to just ignore redlinked categories in mainspace. That you don't personally care about the task doesn't make it an unimportant task that Misplaced Pages need not concern itself with at all — relinked article categories are an issue to which attention does have to be paid whether you care about it or not. Bearcat (talk) 23:07, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• Bearcat, so what you are saying is that Special:WantedCategories is the only (or only reasonable) way to discover new mainspace category redlinks? I agree that reviewing new mainspace category redlinks is important. So it is required to either: (1) improved the tool, or make a new tool; or (2) remove the userspace category redlinks as they pollute the tool's results? I can't see how I can help with (1), but on (2) I will agree if it is agreed to allow potentially indirectly useful user-categories to be bluelinked. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:41, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

If user categories could be separated from article categories I wouldn't mind what sort of weirdness went on there. I'm not against a bit of social networking. I think it helps people to work together. Rathfelder 20:15, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• Option 3 is the way to go, just eave users to clean up redlinks on their own userpages. It causes less drama and upset than the other options. Option 4 is against the CFD and will upset those that wanted to eliminate the category. Option 1 will certainly upset the individuals, and is kind of a tyranny of democracy. Option 2 is not so disruptive, but is more busy work than option 3. Many of these CFDs for usercats will be Wikipolitics, and then have people opposing to each other. We should not create drama when we don't need to, as it is a distraction from building an encyclopedia. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:02, 10 January 2017 (UTC) (who has one redlinked category on user page as a protest against its deletion)

Option #3 is acceptable only if a way can be found to segregate user categories from article categories, so that redlinked user categories are no longer interfering with the maintenance tools that exist to deal with the critically important issue of cleaning up redlinked mainspace categories. Bearcat (talk) 23:07, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• My guess is that more than 99% of redlink categories on user pages are accidents and mistakes, mostly on user pages which are no longer used. If we could remove them the problem would be fixed. But there is no obvious way of distinguishing them for the small minority who care about their red links and object to them being interfered with. Rathfelder 22:15, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• I entirely agree with every word Sitush and Drmies say above. I suggest as gently as possible that the people who suggest mowing down the flowers to keep the lawn tidy may not realize what a chilling effect — or, as Graeme Bartlett puts it, drama and upset — that would have on the users who like having them, if only as a form of self-expression and added liveliness. I agree with Roxy that the problem is with the tool, not the users. I don't know how to make or improve tools, but surely it can be done. In other words, it's option 3 for me, and please fix the problem in another way. Bishonen | talk 18:16, 11 January 2017 (UTC).
• #3 People need to learn to WP:DGAF about things that really, really don't matter. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:28, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
• Option 3; plus tool improvement per Roxy the dog and Bishonen The Lizard Queen. pablo 13:01, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Is the problem with the tool or with the CfDers?

@Bishonen: I have been carrying on a Don Quixote mission against the wp:CfDers/Category establishment for years. It is only now that I realize I am not alone in my frustration. I am also pinging these regulars that I have seen participating in wp:CfD discussions: user:Carlossuarez46 user:Marcocapelle User:Johnpacklambert User:RevelationDirect user:Peterkingiron user:Oculi User:Shawn in Montreal user:Od Mishehu User:Fayenatic london User:BU Rob13 user:Hugo999 user:Jc37 user:PanchoS user:DexDor User:Obionekenobi There are also others who (I think) frequent the even more secretive wp:C2C. Can someone invite them please? Ottawahitech (talk) 15:03, 12 January 2017 (UTC)please ping me

Pinging user:Obiwankenobi, user:Timrollpickering, user:The Bushranger, user:Armbrust, user:Hmains.

@Ottawahitech: As for your Don Quixote mission, is Category talk:Residential condominiums in Miami an example? I replied at 22:07, 14 September 2016 suggesting what could and should be done if there was anything wrong in the category change there; but you only seemed to be carrying out an investigation/complaint about CFD process, not identifying or fixing anything wrong with the content of the encyclopedia (e.g. mis-categorised articles). – Fayenatic London 22:45, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

What exactly am I being pinged to? What is the perceived problem here? ~ Rob₁₃ 15:09, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

@Ottawahitech: Ditto. Do we have to read all the above? I haven't participated because I'm indifferent on the question at the top. Also, once you have clarified the question, I think you meant Obiwankenobi; and I'd add Timrollpickering). – Fayenatic London 15:15, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Ottawahitech, whatever you need, you can't take me for a regular, as you have been active on en:wp for three times longer than me. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:14, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

@Marcoappelle: How does your amount of experience on Misplaced Pages relate to the question: Is the problem with the tool or with the CfDers? Ottawahitech (talk) 16:50, 14 January 2017 (UTC)please ping me

• @Ottawahitech: You said you were pinging regulars, I'm assuming that is related to experience level, but you're much more regular in that sense than I am. What question can I answer that you can't answer yourself? I don't understand the question to begin with. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:10, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Hi @Fayenatic london:, I sympathize, I also hate spending time in endless discussions. But I would rather not rephrase comments made by others.Will it help if I say that the comments made by User:Sitush, User:Drmies, User:Roxy the dogg and user:Bishonen in the thread above are the ones that will bring you up to snufff in the shortest time? Ottawahitech (talk) 16:50, 14 January 2017 (UTC)please ping me

OK, after a quick scan of parts of the above I'm in sympathy with option 3, but I hesitate to express a firm opinion without properly reading the debate and supporting/precedent pages. It seems to me that Special:WantedCategories is useful, as I have just dived into a page around #500 and resolved about 10 of them; but there are multiple ways in which the tool could be improved. E.g. editors could manually create an "opt-out" list A, of redlinked categories that do not need to be created; and a bot could produce another list B, based on the special page but excluding those on page A. Page B would then be a page where category creators could look for work. – Fayenatic London 22:31, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

@BU Rob13: When you became an admin on 9 July 2016 your nominator introduced you with these words: I believe that he would be a fantastic addition to our presently small corp of admins who can help manage CfD and, He has demonstrated a natural ability to discern consensus (or lack thereof) in discussions which are often complex and far from clear-cut. I therefore thought you may be i interested in this discussion? Ottawahitech (talk) 16:50, 14 January 2017 (UTC)please ping me

All I have to note is that @VegaDark:'s comment above, I genuinely think that if the general public saw the state of user categories before the current iteration of WP:USERCAT, or what would become of it after your proposed revisions, it would be very off-putting, is somewhat...contrasted by the arguments I've seen regularly used at CFD that, by viewcount, virtually nobody looks at categories (and, therefore, the logical following that all but literally nobody would look at/looks at userspace categories). That bit of snark aside, I have no opinion on this discussion, other than to note that there seems to be a unendingly-rising tide of people going "Misplaced Pages Needs Fixing", a following tide of "fixes", and the first never seeming to be affected (at least "positively") by the second, at which point the question should be asked if we want an actual encyclopedia, or The Book Of Da Rules? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:24, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

The "If" I put in that statement was a pertinent qualifier. I don't think the general public will see much of it. However, I certainly discovered user categories when I first joined and it was very off-putting to see the type of things that existed at the time, and it made me question how serious Misplaced Pages really was in building an encyclopedia. That's why I've worked endlessly on making them more encyclopedic since then. VegaDark (talk) 03:48, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

• I lean toward option 3 (let users do what they want) but with an option 1/2-style caveat for categories that are clearly disruptive. If I want to put a redlink on my userpage to Category:Wikipedians who fondle chipmunks, what's the harm to the project? Maybe I click through the redlink and find other chipmunk fondlers interested in collaborating on our chipmunk articles, which are a bit of a mess. Bluelinking the category is a different kettle of fish, of course. On the other hand we shouldn't permit users to put just anything on their userpages. Categories clearly against the aims of the project (e.g. Category:Wikipedians who vandalize biographies of living persons) or obviously disruptive (e.g. Category:Wikipedians who are glad (name of living person) is dead) should be removed and the users warned. I don't there's much utility in policing userpages beyond that, and I fear a slippery slope to policing userboxen that don't meet with some set of editors' opinions on what constitutes a benefit to the project, and I happen to like userboxen. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 13:46, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

• I think you miss the point that categories are not only visible in the userbox. I don't care what people put on their user page. I object when their jokes impinge on the work of keeping the category system working properly.Rathfelder (talk) 23:03, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Historical overzealous deletion of usercategories

Reviewing Special:WantedCategories, looking through red categories containing "Wikipedians" and with multiple members, and reviewing the associated CfDs, I see groupthink and false consensus effect, and it is almost always led by User:VegaDark

An example is Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/User/Archive/April_2008#Category:Wikipedians_by_operating_system. Well obviously, Windows and OS users don't care for being able to network, they are the dominant majority, and they are dominated by people who don't care about operating systems. But Category:Wikipedians who use Linux?!, these people do care, and networking could be valuable to the project. Linux is so much more powerful, versatile, but unintuitive, when you are really trying to do something new, some discussion with someone who might understand can really help.

I also note the redlinks are repopulated by more editors than participated in the deletion discussion. And that the culture of CfD is that none needed notifying. "If they cared they'd have watchlisted the category" - such an absurdity. These points justify overturning the CfD decision.

VegaDark, the current mess is a direct result of your history narrow vision, authoritarianism, and groupthinking colleagues. Will you help fix this by now agreeing to bluelink categories that enable mutual support among editors? Support for editors directly benefits the editors, and editors matter. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:34, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

• The example you cite was brought to deletion review and endorsed already. I still stand by the reasoning behind that 100%. And, I might add, I've always abided by consensus and done things by the book. To try and claim there's any authoritarianism going on here is ridiculous. You can try to claim "false consensus" if you would like, but it stands to reason that a lot of people who care about user categories have added their views and many of them have come to the same conclusion. I'm curious what you would have had the closing admins do other than make the decisions they made when closing discussions based on those who participated. I'm just persuasive with my rationale to to the point of getting results - lots of positive results, in my view. On the contrary, If I had conclusive proof (unsure how we would get peer reviewed scientific research on this issue, however) that Misplaced Pages was genuinely improved from a wild west user category atmosphere, I'd be all for it - the bottom line should be improvement of the encyclopedia. And frankly I strongly disagree that allowing so many unencyclopedic user categories fosters the sort of atmosphere that tells me we are here to build an encyclopedia instead of proclaiming ourselves to be members of various joke categories. As to your example, I wholeheartedly support creation of Category:Wikipedians interested in collaborating on topics related to Linux for those users to collaborate together. Why must we categorize those who use Linux? These types of categories are generally linked to userboxes, which some users place on their userpage like it was their job. I'd argue the vast majority of users who were in that category prior to deletion probably would have no interest in actually collaborating on improving content - this is based off of years of dealing with user categories. If the ultimate goal for users is to collaborate, why do we have to create "who use", "who like", "who watch", etc. categories instead of just cutting to the chase and creating a category named as collaboration-oriented as possible? Here's some food for thought - if we brought back the Linux category, and I created the redlinked category I proposed, what do you think consensus would be on a merge nomination from the "who use" category to the "collaborate on topics" category? At this point we would be throwing out any sort of idea that the first was meant for collaboration from those arguing to keep it around, no? VegaDark (talk) 09:14, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
  • I think you are wrong. But if I am not convincing anyone, then I might have to support BHG's position. Give up on user category freedom, have all redlinks removed. Perhaps try templated userbox "What links here" to network for project related purposes. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:48, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
  • I miss User:Ned Scott. His approach appeals to me. Working "willing to help" into these categories still might be a good idea. I do admit that most of the categories were frivolous and the of the few with potential, most members were probably not in them to be offering to provide help. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:54, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
    • The problem is that many users take user categories far too literal. "Oh, I'm interested in that topic, personally. But actually help edit articles related to that? No thanks." I would suggest that it actually impedes collaboration when some users are collaboration-oriented while others simply saw the category, said, "That applies to me!" and added it to their page (usually by way of a userbox, with a category attached to it), without any thoughts towards actually improving content related to that category. Making category names as collaboration oriented as possible eliminates, or at least significantly reduces this issue and, in my view, makes it far more inviting to actually seek out someone in the category with the reasonable expectation that they would be amenable to working with you on something. VegaDark (talk) 03:29, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
      • I would oppose a merge from people who like/use something to the more specific "interest in collaborating". The latter may well be a subset of the former but, for most people, having the time and interest to edit articles on a topic will come and go, while liking/using will be a longer-term attribute. – Fayenatic London 22:51, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
        • And you've proven my point perfectly. If said users are not interested in actually improving the encyclopedia by being in an "interested in" or "who like" category, then why, when categories are supposed to be for the improvement of the encyclopedia, are we keeping them around? VegaDark (talk) 23:19, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
          • I'm buying it. Category:Wikipedian photographers may include Category:Wikipedians who take photographs for article on request, but will include too many just saying, but not willing to help. Category:Wikipedians willing to help would have to be opt in only. This categories could be helpful if finely divided, eg Category:Wikipedians willing to take photos in Rome. For broad offers, a notice board might be much better. Should this sort of sentiment be added to the guideline? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:12, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
            • I'm open to deleting the categories for using/liking. What I opposed was merging their members into a category with more limited scope. – Fayenatic London 09:18, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
              • Fair enough, I can see many merged wouldn't remove themselves even if it no longer applied to them under the new name. VegaDark (talk) 09:31, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

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