Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license.
Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat.
We can research this topic together.
::::''"So your problem with the Intercept is too much editorial independence and lack of market pressure"'' - Nope, that's not it at all. My problem with the Intercept is that it pretty much is a glorified blog for Greenwald, his own personal soapbox (though I guess they hired a few more people to make it less obvious). Will you quit putting words in my mouth and making up silly little strawmen and pretending I'm saying something I'm not? This is like the third or fourth comment from you where you write "So you're saying that {something ridiculous that I'm not saying at all}". It's sort of obnoxious and tiresome.] (]) 13:49, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
::::''"So your problem with the Intercept is too much editorial independence and lack of market pressure"'' - Nope, that's not it at all. My problem with the Intercept is that it pretty much is a glorified blog for Greenwald, his own personal soapbox (though I guess they hired a few more people to make it less obvious). Will you quit putting words in my mouth and making up silly little strawmen and pretending I'm saying something I'm not? This is like the third or fourth comment from you where you write "So you're saying that {something ridiculous that I'm not saying at all}". It's sort of obnoxious and tiresome.] (]) 13:49, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
:::::"glorified blog for Greenwald". I really don't see that. Greenwald writes one out of 20+ articles (many are not even opinion pieces). Anyway that's your personal opinion, and opinions are like assholes. I think MSNBC is a unglorified soap-box for the DNC, and the Wash Po is a glorified soapbox for the moneyed elite. ] (]) 16:20, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
:::::"glorified blog for Greenwald". I really don't see that. Greenwald writes one out of 20+ articles (many are not even opinion pieces). Anyway that's your personal opinion, and opinions are like assholes. I think MSNBC is a unglorified soap-box for the DNC, and the Wash Po is a glorified soapbox for the moneyed elite. ] (]) 16:20, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
::::::Gucci, if those words really represent your approach to editing Misplaced Pages, they disqualify you from editing here. WP is not the place to "right great wrongs". If for whatever reason you cannot devote your efforts here to representing what is said in mainstream Reliable Sources '''such as Washington Post''', you will end up like the many other POV American Politcs editors who are no longer permitted to disrupt these articles. The rest of us are volunteering our time and attention to follow WP site policy and guidelines. ]] 16:32, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances)
Changes challenged by reversion may not be reinstated without affirmative consensus on the talk page
Violations of any of these restrictions should be reported immediately to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard.
Editors who are aware of this topic being designated a contentious topic and who violate these restrictions may be sanctioned by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense.
With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:
Edits made solely to enforce any clearly established consensus are exempt from all edit-warring restrictions.
Edits made which remove or otherwise change any material placed by clearly established consensus, without first obtaining consensus to do so, may be treated in the same manner as obvious vandalism.
In order to be considered "clearly established" the consensus must be proven by prior talk-page discussion.
Reverts of edits made by anonymous (IP) editors are exempt from the 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring. If you are in doubt, contact an administrator for assistance.
Whenever you are relying on one of these exemptions, you should refer to it in your edit summary and, if applicable, link to the discussion where consensus was clearly established.
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
RM, 2016 United States election interference by Russia → Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections, not moved, 21 December 2016, /Archive 2#Requested move 21 December 2016
MRV, 2016 United States election interference by Russia → Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections, Endorsed, 7 January 2017, Misplaced Pages:Move review/Log/2017 January
RM, 2016 United States election interference by Russia → Intelligence reports of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections, Not moved, /Archive 3#Requested move 29 December 2016
RM, 2016 United States election interference by Russia → Allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections, No consensus, 7 January 2017, /Archive 3#Requested move 7 January 2017
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Computer Security, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of computer security on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Computer SecurityWikipedia:WikiProject Computer SecurityTemplate:WikiProject Computer SecurityComputer Security
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related
Template:WikiProject Donald TrumpPlease add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Elections and Referendums, an ongoing effort to improve the quality of, expand upon and create new articles relating to elections, electoral reform and other aspects of democratic decision-making. For more information, visit our project page.Elections and ReferendumsWikipedia:WikiProject Elections and ReferendumsTemplate:WikiProject Elections and ReferendumsElections and Referendums
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections is within the scope of WikiProject Espionage, which aims to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of espionage, intelligence, and related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page, or contribute to the discussion.EspionageWikipedia:WikiProject EspionageTemplate:WikiProject EspionageEspionage
This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Internet, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Internet on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.InternetWikipedia:WikiProject InternetTemplate:WikiProject InternetInternet
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Journalism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of journalism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JournalismWikipedia:WikiProject JournalismTemplate:WikiProject JournalismJournalism
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history
This article has not yet been checked against the criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: not checked
Coverage and accuracy: not checked
Structure: not checked
Grammar and style: not checked
Supporting materials: not checked
To fill out this checklist, please add the following code to the template call:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Misplaced Pages. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia
This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
RfC: Should Putin's December 23 press conference statement be included or excluded?
At a December 23 press conference, Vladimir Putin responded to claims of Russian involvement in the 2016 U.S. election: " are losing on all fronts and looking elsewhere for things to blame. In my view this, how shall I say it, degrades their own dignity. You have to know how to lose with dignity." Does Putin's response belong in the article? (I am doing this as an RfC because the existing discretionary sanctions on American Politics effectively give anyone veto power over any material merely by deleting it, regardless of how flimsy the rationale for deletion may be—although in practice this is constantly abused and inconsistently enforced.)TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:33, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
Support This direct quote by Putin directly pertaining to the issue (in an article devoid of quotes by Putin) certainly is appropriate under the "Commentary and Reaction" section, the "Russian Government" sub-section, as originally entered by TheTimesAreAChanging. There currently is no direct quote by the man directly implicated in these actions and this one is notable, well-sourced, and encyclopedic. Marteau (talk) 04:25, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
Oppose this is a distraction. Obviously, Russia denies this and is trying to make this about the election and not about the violations committed by their intelligence and disinformation agencies. - Scarpy (talk) 05:57, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
You have cited a political, but not an encyclopedic, reason for excluding the statement of an alleged perpetrator of the action the article is devoted to. Your guess as to what Putin's motives are is irrelevant. The direct statement of the alleged perpetrator of the activity the article is devoted to is 100% completely relevant and 100% deserving of inclusion in the "Reaction and Commentary" sub-section. Marteau (talk) 06:31, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
I'm hesitant to respond here. I will remind you to assume good faith, and to pay close attention to comments before responding. If you'd like to have a two-sided conversation, I'm all for it. If you want to go off on tangents, there are other contributors to this article what will likely indulge you. - Scarpy (talk) 06:44, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
Support. It is clearly one of the more notable statements in the "Commentary and Reaction" section. It has received more than enough enough coverage in the non-Russian press. This despite the fact that (a) it's very recent (b) national media coverage is necessarily skewed toward reporting on statements made by domestic politicians (i.e. not Putin), something which has to be taken into account per wp:systemicbias. If it were up to me, the "reaction" section would be down to a paragraph, and a lot of the less-than-informative commentary (including this taunting by Putin) would go. since that does not appear to be in the cards, Putin's statement from his major annual press conference must be kept per WP:DUE. Guccisamsclub (talk) 11:52, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
Support - I think we have to include a brief mention of this based on the widespread coverage in reliable sources, even though it's empty posturing and diversionary.- MrX18:29, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
Yes. We can simply summarize what he said. For example, "Putin accused Democrats of seeking someone to blame for their defeat". Quoting him directly is just lazy writing.- MrX15:02, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
That seems like a good idea, especially since we weren't quoting him directly but rather giving a translation of what he said in Russian. (There's a different translation with essentially the same or similar meaning on the President of Russia webcite.) --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:08, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Oppose – It wasn't specified what "all fronts" meant. For example, one of those fronts could be the war in Syria. Putin's comments about the elections accusations came a little later in the reliable source.
" Putin dismissed suggestions Moscow had helped Trump to victory in any way however.
'It's not like that,' he said. 'All of this (the accusations) speaks of the current administration's systemic problems.' "
The quote you just gave, together with his point elsewhere about the the substance of the leaks being more important than the identity of the leakers, is IMO more substantive and measured than the stuff about politicians not being "graceful." The latter is too close to the shrill rants from ex-spies about the "hideousness" of Trump's treatment of their courageous colleagues. Guccisamsclub (talk) 10:18, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
I think there's a problem with your RfC proposal because the given source doesn't clearly indicate that the quote is about the elections. The fact that you had to go to other sources, seems to admit that your given source is inadequate. You might try making a proposal that is correctly sourced by using material from the sources in your recent message above and we'll see if it works. --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:20, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
I had no idea that the one source I gave could be so misconstrued, or that we were going to be this pedantic. I have replaced Reuters with the Washington Post of the same day, which uses the same Putin quote but is even more unequivocal regarding its meaning.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 05:48, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Oppose While it would be appropriate to include a well-sourced statement that Putin denies Russian involvement in the hacking, that is not what this RfC would provide. This RfC promotes the clearly UNDUE and irrelevant fact that Putin denigrates the Democrats. Per my statement and others in the discussion section below, editors should oppose this WP:POINTy RfC and we should instead follow policy to include appropriate accounts of Putin's denial. SPECIFICOtalk19:12, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
Oppose to including as direct quotation. This should be mentioned, but only briefly summarized as the fact that Putin denied the claim. I do not see any reason for including direct quotation here. He is not a Cicero, and the statements adds nothing to the simple fact of denial beyond disparaging other people. The only reason to include quotation is to disparage democrats, which is not the purpose of WP.My very best wishes (talk) 21:03, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
It's also not the purpose of Misplaced Pages to exclude quotes just because they disparage Democrats. If the quote is notable enough, it should be included, either in direct or paraphrased form. -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:17, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
So, why exactly anyone would consider this quotation notable? This is just a slander that provides zero information. Saying that, I realize that certain slander can be notable (e.g. "shoot the rabid dogs!" by Andrey Vyshinsky or "kill them in an toilet" by Putin) as described in numerous books. However, I do not see why that particular slander would be notable. My very best wishes (talk) 05:48, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
If the Russian President makes a public statement on alleged Russian hacking, then it's inherently notable. The evidence for that notability is the wide press coverage Putin's remarks have received. It doesn't matter if you consider the content of those remarks to be "slander that provides zero information." A lot of people think President Obama's statements on the issue, and the statements of his intelligence agencies, are also slander that provide zero information. But they're notable, as evidenced by the press coverage they've received. The only possible reason to exclude this information, that I can see, is political. -Thucydides411 (talk) 17:54, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Yes, the claim (the denial) is notable or at least deserve to be noted on the page. However, the quotation is not notable. It might became notable in a year from now (just as in two my examples above) if it will be mentioned in books on the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 16:05, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
Support: These statements have been widely reported, and they deal directly with the content of this article. I think it's obvious they belong in the article. -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:24, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
@Volunteer Marek: Could you please help me understand your reasoning behind invoking WP:UNDUE on this? "UNDUE" is of course very broadly writter, and it is not clear to me what aspect of the "undue" policy you think including this quote violates. Marteau (talk) 22:55, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
Sure. This isn't an article about "Putin's opinions about the Democratic Party of the United States". Which makes inclusion of this quote POVFORKish. Like I said, his denial of Russian involvement is of course DUE, but his opinions about the Dems, is not.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:58, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
Comment: If this is "undue" for the reasons given by Volunteer Marek et al., so is roughly 90% of the "Reactions" section, which has little to do with the narrow question of whether or not the hackers were employed by the Russian state. Editors are being highly selective--per wp:systemicbias--in what they consider "undue." Putin's other point was that it's not who stole the emails, but what's in them. Remember that Putin himself tried push the same "our enemies did it" line as the Democrats when the Panama papers came out, to distract from the contents of the docs. Would pointing that out also be "undue"? Remember that this article is about Russian "interference in the election", not Russia's "interference in the DNC's IT infrastructure." Therefore the broader political issues can't be dismissed, and in fact are not dismissed by RS. Guccisamsclub (talk) 01:15, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Ummmmmm.... that's actually not true at all. Blatantly not true. Can you *specifically* which parts of the "Reactions" section have "little to do" with the Russian interference in the US election? Because when I read it, it looks like all of is precisely about that. (And seriously, trying to distinguish between "Russian interference in US election" and "Russian interference in DNC structure" is just silly) Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:29, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
"Former CIA directorMichael Morell said foreign interference in U.S. elections was an existential threat and called it the "political equivalent" of the September 11 attacks". Let's see: an ex-spy saying "its 911!" is wp:due and relevant; a sitting president saying that the Democrats have used the "Russian interference" angle as a distraction from their political mistakes and from the content of the emails is off-topic. Did I get that about right? Finally there is nothing silly about the distinction: Russian "interference in the election" encompasses everything from hacking to fundamentally compromising the electoral process. Some others (rough irrelevance score, with Putin's remarks as the 60% baseline): Trump on WMD (60%); Trump on China (100%); ex-CIA Little on Trump disrespecting CIA heroes (100%); ex-CIA Harlow on Trump's "hideousness" (100%); Clinton on Putin's personal vendetta (50%); McElvaine calling for intervention by the electoral college (50%) because it's the worst scandal ever (a year ago, the worst was "Benghazi-gate", if memory serves); probably a few others I was too lazy to cite. Guccisamsclub (talk) 10:05, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
You said, quote, "90% of the "Reactions" section, which has little to do with the narrow question of whether or not the hackers were employed by the Russian state". You haven't actually managed to substantiate that at all, just made up some numbers. Here, let me respond (irrelevance score, with Putin's remarks as the 87.456% baseline):
Ex-CIA director (3.455%), Trump on WMD (8.334%), Trump on China (actually barely mentioned) (100*(sqr(2)/5.7)%), ex-CIA Little on Trump disrespecting CIA heroes (actually disrespecting CIA assessment of the hack) (2x+y=2.8, x=y, .01*x%), ex-CIA Harlow (actually not Trump's hideousness, but that the dispute is hideousness, please read that correctly) (.01*(e^2)/2*e^1.1%), Clinton on Putin's vendetta (.01*lim (x--> inf) (5*(x^4)+6)/(6*(x^4)+3*(x^3)+2x)... %), McElvaine calling for intervention (4.9494949494949494949494949494949494949494949494949494949439494949494%).
FWIW, it doesn't look like the two of you are discussing your issue in terms of the policy WP:UNDUE, which begins with,
"Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources."
Support including mention of this. However the 'quote' is not a quote, but a translation, so it doesn't really seem to belong. I think we can describe his statements as blaming and criticizing the Democrats and denying the Russia's involvement (as opposed to simply saying that he denied Russian involvement), but any English version of what he said cannot, by definition be a quote. We shouldn't try to present it as such. MjolnirPantsTell me all about it.16:15, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
* Support including the citation as proposed by TheTimesAreAChanging. There is a whole section of the article dedicated to whether Putin personally or not directed the hacks. He has responded to these accusations, which makes it relevant, and he has been quoted by a number of WP:RS. It's a no-brainer.XavierItzm (talk) 10:33, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
Support but shorten. I agree with Volunteer Marek about WP:UNDUE. Half of this quote isn't really about Russia's involvement in the U.S. election but a snarky comment about Democrats' dignity. And the remaining part can probably be adequately summarized without quotation. Putin denied Russia's involvement and criticized the Democrats for casting blame. That should do it. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:27, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
Support Since we have an entire article devoted to an unproven allegation against Putin, it is due weight to include the few sentences where he responds. TFD (talk) 04:18, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
Support but paraphrase per MrX suggestion above (Putin accused Democrats of seeking someone to blame for their defeat). Pincrete (talk) 01:05, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
Support (summoned by bot) as an aspect of the incident that has been widely reported, but ideally with the quote shortened or paraphrased. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:39, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
Threaded discussion
References
WP:DUEWEIGHT has nothing to do with who made the response, and everything to do with the extent of coverage in reliable sources. If you would like to convince other editor that this material should be added to the article, you might start by showing that other reliable sources are treating it as important and that it helps readers understand the subject.- MrX03:44, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
I'm changing the RfC title from the highly argumentative "Is Putin's own response UNDUE?" to "Should Putin's December 23 press conference statement be included or excluded?" PEr Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment, the question presented in an RfC should be brief, neutral, and specific. The original title was none of these. And TheTimesAreAChanging, you should put your argument/perspective under "survey" or "threaded discussion" — not under the question presented. These are pretty simple and important rules for RfCs.
Separately but relatedly, it's also incorrect to frame the issue of whether "Putin's own response should be included" — his response already is included, under "Reactions: Russian government," we clearly and specifically note what Putin's representatives have said (denied that Russia participated, termed accusation "nonsense") and additional quote Russian foreign minister Lavrov as well. Neutrality03:52, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
In light of the malformed presentation, I suggest somebody archive this and that if OP wishes to pursue the RfC a properly stated and formatted version be presented. SPECIFICOtalk03:58, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
If you move your argumentation out of the question section (to the comments or threaded discussion section), that would in my view fix the problem. This is a pretty simple thing to do to follow pretty simple RfC rules. Neutrality04:12, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
We're only going to have a problem a month from now if this RfC is not properly set forth. I am going to post on AN asking for assistance. The cherrypicked statement by Putin on the 23rd is not about the hacking, it's another in his denigrations of the Democrats and by implication Sec'y Clinton, for whom he has longstanding animosity. There are RS accounts of Putin denying Russian involvement in the hacking and it's appropriate to say Russia denied the conclusions of the US Gov't, but this RfC is misstated and cites Putin's off-topic dissembling on a different subject. This needs to be closed and a proper RfC or edit -- on the topic of this article -- added to the talk page or article. SPECIFICOtalk16:27, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
The premise of the RfC that "Vladimir Putin responded to claims of Russian involvement in the 2016 U.S. election" with the given quote, is not supported by the reliable source. Presentation of Putin's response to accusations came a little later in the reliable source, as indicated in my comment in the survey section. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:14, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
That's why this RfC is a hot mess. Even if the putative outcome were "support" it would not relate to the relevant matter, namely that Putin has denied involvement. So any supporting !votes here are supporting an undue off-topic and irrelevant statement. That's why we need to shut this down and mount a properly stated RfC, although frankly, as others have stated, the posting of this RfC seems like an argumentative and WP:POINTy reaction to @Volunteer Marek:'s appropriate reversion of the off-topic content. Is there an Admin in the house? Please can't we get this straight? OP has been asked to edit, but at this point we have responses and it is too late for OP to correct this. SPECIFICOtalk17:41, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
Not sure if admins intervene in this type of situation. In the meantime, you might consider adding your opinion to the survey section and hope that more will see the problem with this RfC and oppose it --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:01, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
I will do that, thank you, but I will also challenge any close that purports to endorse off-topic article content due to the disruptive malformed statement of the RfC. SPECIFICOtalk19:08, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
As documented below, Bob K31416 and SPECIFICO are playing with fantasies rather than facts, and SPECIFICO is the only one being disruptive (while threatening further disruption). Putin's remarks are apparently so damaging to the narrative these editors seek to promote that they find it easier to assimilate them into their worldview by assiduously denying that Putin said what everyone else heard him say (Russia's official transcript be damned!).TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:55, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure what kind of alternate universe Bob K31416 and SPECIFICO are living in when they claim "The premise of the RfC that 'Vladimir Putin responded to claims of Russian involvement in the 2016 U.S. election' with the given quote, is not supported by the reliable source." Here is Russia's official transcript of the press conference:
Yevgeny Primakov: Our western colleagues often tell us that you have the power to manipulate the world, designate presidents, and interfere in elections here and there. How does it feel to be the most powerful person on Earth? Thank you.
Vladimir Putin: I have commented on this issue on a number of occasions. If you want to hear it one more time, I can say it again. The current US Administration and leaders of the Democratic Party are trying to blame all their failures on outside factors. I have questions and some thoughts in this regard. We know that not only did the Democratic Party lose the presidential election, but also the Senate, where the Republicans have the majority, and Congress, where the Republicans are also in control. Did we, or I also do that? We may have celebrated this on the "vestiges of a 17th century chapel," but were we the ones who destroyed the chapel, as the saying goes? This is not the way things really are. All this goes to show that the current administration faces system-wide issues, as I have said at a Valdai Club meeting. ... The outstanding Democrats in American history would probably be turning in their graves though. Roosevelt certainly would be because he was an exceptional statesman in American and world history, who knew how to unite the nation even during the Great Depression’s bleakest years, in the late 1930s, and during World War II. Today’s administration, however, is very clearly dividing the nation. The call for the electors not to vote for either candidate, in this case, not to vote for the President-elect, was quite simply a step towards dividing the nation. Two electors did decide not to vote for Trump, and four for Clinton, and here too they lost. They are losing on all fronts and looking for scapegoats on whom to lay the blame. I think that this is an affront to their own dignity. It is important to know how to lose gracefully.
And here is how this was reported in reliable sources:
"Putin to Democratic Party: You lost, get over it,"The Washington Post, December 23, 2016: "Russian President Vladimir Putin has a message for the White House and Democratic leaders who accuse him of stealing their candidate’s victory: Don't be sore losers. That was how Putin answered a question Friday at his nationally televised annual news conference about whether Russia interfered in the U.S. presidential election in favor of Donald Trump. The Democrats 'are losing on all fronts and looking elsewhere for things to blame,' he told the nearly 1,400 journalists packed into a Moscow convention hall for the nearly four-hour event. 'In my view, this, how shall I say it, degrades their own dignity. You have to know how to lose with dignity.'"
"Putin says Democrats are being sore losers: 'It is important to know how to lose gracefully',"Business Insider, December 23, 2016: "Russian President Vladimir Putin said Friday that top Democrats are being sore losers by, in part, looking to blame Hillary Clinton's stunning election loss on hacks said to have been orchestrated by the Kremlin. 'They are losing on all fronts and looking for scapegoats on whom to lay the blame,' Putin said. 'I think that this is an affront to their own dignity.' 'It is important to know how to lose gracefully,' he added, suggesting Clinton's loss was a result of a 'gap between the elite's vision of what is good and bad' and the 'broad popular masses.'"
"Putin reaches out to Trump, while thumping Dems,"Fox News, December 23, 2016: "Russian President Vladimir Putin followed up a warm letter to Donald Trump with a more terse message for U.S. Democrats Friday: Don't blame me for your November drubbing. ... 'Democrats are losing on every front and looking for people to blame everywhere,' he said. 'They need to learn to lose with dignity.' 'The Democratic Party lost not only the presidential elections, but elections in the Senate and Congress. ... Is that also my work?' he said. He went on to ridicule Democrats for never-say-die efforts to overturn the Nov. 8 presidential election, first by calling for recounts, then trying to get electors to flip. 'The fact that the current ruling party called Democratic has blatantly forgotten the original definition of its name is evident if one takes into consideration unscrupulous use of administrative resource and appeals to electors not to concede to voters' choice,' Putin said, according to the Russian news agency Tass."
Do I really need to go on? There is no serious argument that this material has nothing to do with "claims of Russian involvement in the 2016 U.S. election"; as both the official transcript and the cited RS make clear, Putin chose to respond to the question about interfering in the election by emphasizing the Democrats's need for an external scapegoat. The real argument is simply that some editors don't likehow Putin chose to respond, citing WP:NOCRITICISMOFTHEDEMOCRATICPARTYCANEVER,EVER,EVERBEALLOWED—red link very much intended.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:38, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
I don't understand. How is this content off-topic? Putin discussed the hacking scandal - isn't that directly relevant to this article? -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:22, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
@Marteau:It was not the Democrats accusing the Russians of this or that. It was the official intelligence assessment of the US Government, accepted by both parties in Congress and just about everywhere else except the Trump team, who endorsed and requested Russian interference. SPECIFICOtalk00:37, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO: It is not our task to judge the correctness, or incorrectness, of Putin's statement. It is his opinion and his reply to the accusations he has faced, and it belongs in the "Reaction and Commentary" section. But besides that, the Democrats certainly DID accuse the Russians "of this or that". They actually made quite a big to-do about it, as I recall. Marteau (talk) 01:04, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
But my point is that his "accusers" are not the Democrats, it is the US Government. Only the Trump campaign and associates deny this. SPECIFICOtalk 01:22, 26 December 2016 (UTC) SPECIFICOtalk01:21, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
I was attempting to respond to your statement above that Putin's derogation of the Democrats is on topic for this article because it was the Democratic Party that accused/determined that the Russians hacked. But it was not the Democratic Party, it was the US Government -- the Obama Administration for the executive branch based on the National Intelligence Assessment, and a broad bi-partisan array of US members of Congress. So Putin's snarky put-down presumably of the campaign of Sec'y Clinton, whom he despises, is not relevant to this article. It might be relevant to an article about Secretary Clinton's campaign, since it is a meme that various talking heads on the cable networks have also presented. SPECIFICOtalk02:06, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Please specify the disagreement. Do you doubt that mainstream RS all report that it was the US Gov't intelligence assessment that Russia hacked? SPECIFICOtalk02:14, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
This article is about Russian interference in the election. Democrats, using US intelligence as a basis, have in fact accused Russia of interference. Putin has addressed Democratic criticism. I feel that these issues are worthy of inclusion in an article about Russian interference in the election. I think it has foundation and rationale for inclusion based on policy and guidelines. Thats my stance, you disagree. Now, I'll resume agreeing to disagree if you don't mind :) Marteau (talk) 02:35, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
As of October 31, 2016—just days before the election (and at a time when pundits were still postulating a 90-98% chance that Clinton would win)—the consensus of the U.S. intelligence community was that "even the hacking into Democratic emails ... was aimed at disrupting the presidential election rather than electing Donald Trump." This assessment was radically altered following Trump's surprise victory (and shortly before the Electoral College voted), but—so far as is known—the intelligence community has not acquired any new information on Russia's actions or intentions since October 31.
Because Putin's remarks are so profoundly damaging to the current official U.S. government position (itself likely to suddenly, inexplicably change yet again after January 20, 2017), editors are pretending that Putin didn't really say what the official transcript says he said, or couldn't possibly have meant it—and, in any case, doubting the accuracy and integrity of the CIA is inherently WP:UNDUE, or something.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:06, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
The last point too accurate to be said out loud. I can't wait to see what will be considered "due" and "reliable" for this article after January 20th, 2017. US officials say... Guccisamsclub (talk) 10:33, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
I frankly can't believe that we're arguing over whether a widely covered statement by the Russian President on the hacking scandal and election is relevant to this article. Even more than that, I can't believe that there are people who are arguing that it isn't related to "2016 United States election interference by Russia." I feel like I've stepped into an alternate reality. Really, can we just step back and try to approach this article with less blatant POV battling? -Thucydides411 (talk) 04:35, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Indeed. The thrashing and wailing accompanying the proposed inclusion of a quote by the man directly accused of involvement in this issue, in the "Commentary and Reactions - Russian Government" subsection is becoming ludicrous and at this point I have to believe POV pushing is involved. The proposed quote does more than simply deny Russian involvement; it ascribes a purported motive and is something anyone who hopes to fully understand the dynamics of this issue should be exposed to. His words also capture the tenor of the issue and the animosity present beyond which what a sterile paraphrase can capture. That this statement is Putin's POV is clear, and any bemoaning about how it casts Democrats in a bad light insults the intelligence of the reader... the source and his bias is obvious and the reader needs no protection from such a quote in a "Commentary" subsection. Marteau (talk) 13:11, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Re "The proposed quote does more than simply deny Russian involvement" – If you read it carefully, it does not deny Russian involvement. Here it is for reference, " are losing on all fronts and looking elsewhere for things to blame. In my view this, how shall I say it, degrades their own dignity. You have to know how to lose with dignity."
Also note that it is not a quote of what he said, which was in Russian, but rather a translation. It differs from the translation given on the President of Russia webcite, although it essentially has the same or similar meaning. Here it is for reference, "They are losing on all fronts and looking for scapegoats on whom to lay the blame. I think that this is an affront to their own dignity. It is important to know how to lose gracefully."
Fair enough. Putin's comment could be more properly considered a comment, or reaction. Which actually makes it perfectly appropriate material for the "Commentary and Reaction" section, which is of course what this RfC is about. Marteau (talk) 21:08, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
"Russian trolls' support for Trump" Section Biased
In this section, articles only from the Guardian and Daily Beast are cited. Both are well-known to be "progressive, liberal" sources of news, and to make things worse, the sources are unreliable. For example, source 44. Go there and read its claims that "RT" and "Sputnik" promoted "fake news" about an incident in Turkey. Now ACTUALLY GO READ THOSE ARTICLES ON RT AND SPUTNIK (they are still there), and the articles DO NOT claim that there was a 2nd coup attempt, but only say that there is speculation that a 2nd coup attempt may have occurred, and they specifically report that they asked a Turkish official what happened and that he denied a 2nd coup, and said it was just a security check. The article on RT DOES mention the protest, as well, in conjunction with what U.S. Government sources claim occurred, no one claims another coup occurred, only that there was speculation about it because of the 7,000 police forces that surrounded the base, and there is an open and on-going dispute about whether those police forces were there or not. The U.S. says "no", RT says "Yes", and the Turkish official appears to side with RT, claiming they were there but only doing a "security check". The numbers are also in dispute, whether it was 7,000 or fewer, but the problem here is that The Guardian and Daily Beast stories, used as "credible references" in this Wiki, are not credible because those particular stories claim that the RT article is one-sided and claims there was another coup atttempt, when it does not. It merely speculates that might have happened, but reports that Turkish officials deny it. The Guardian and Daily Beast also claim that, because the Pentagon said it didn't happen, then it factually did not happen. There are a number of high-profile cases of the Pentagon claiming something did not happen, or making statements that allude to something not having happened, when in fact it did happen. The Guardian and Daily Beast should be reporting that the Pentagon claims it was just a protest and did not happen, while Turkey and RT both are reporting the police did show up, and the facts are disputed. Just because you are a U.S. newspaper doesn't mean the U.S. Government always tells the truth (Iraq WMDs, claims that Iran and not Iraq gassed the Kurds in northern Iraq w/100% certaintly during Reagan's tenure, then flip-flopping and claiming it was Saddam w/100% certainty during W.'s tenure, etc., etc.).
Bizarre title
The article title implies the facts are established even though the allegations are presented without any evidence! Only on Wiki.....Sarah777
Trump dossier - BLP
I blanked the entire section on the Trump-Russia dossier because I don't think there's any way to present content about the dossier in this article in a BLP-compatible way. It seems impossible to connect the dossier to Russian interference without conveying at least some of its contents, which amount to unsubstantiated allegations of treason by Trump and his staffers. Sorry if this starts a flame war, I'm only trying to follow BLP. In fact I have little interest in this article and I'm not even watching it. Please ping me if you want my attention here. And now I will duck and cover. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:20, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Actually, I think this is one of cases when someone removes any content he does not like (no matter how important and well sourced) and then requires consensus to restore. Doing so I think is actually against WP:Consensus, WP:NPOVandWP:BLP, and it is misuse of sanctions. However, if admins think this is all right, then who cares? My very best wishes (talk) 21:51, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Yes this is exactly what is happenning. I do not support its removal of the basis of BLP. We certainly should not remove content because "it amounts to unsubstantiated allegations of treason". - Shiftchange (talk) 22:17, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
As long as the article makes it clear that these allegations have never been substantiated, I don't see how it's a BLP violation. See Pizzagate conspiracy theory for an example of unproven (in that case, obviously untrue, but still) allegations about a living person that no-one is suggesting violates BLP. MjolnirPantsTell me all about it.22:38, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
I've restored the text. A wholesale deletion of that section is clearly against consensus. Feel free to discuss any particular changes you want to make, but in its current form the whole section looks well-sourced to me. Bradv22:45, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Thank you, Brad. I was just in the process of composing an argument to say that restoring it would be OK under the DS, since half a dozen people on this page have already discussed the section - and there seemed to be general agreement to cover the existence or alleged existence of the dossier, but not to divulge any of its contents. In fact when someone posted some of the salacious stuff from Buzzfeed it was deleted and revdel'ed, and that should continue to be our approach. That will keep us clear of any BLP problems. --MelanieN (talk) 22:54, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
P.S. Although I am an admin, I participate here as a regular editor, and so my "argument" that restoring this would pass DS was just an editor's opinion, not any kind of official ruling. I will say, though, that if anyone sees any attempt to add BLP violations to this article or this talk page, holler for me or any other admin who happens to be online, and let's get rid of it as quickly as possible. --MelanieN (talk) 23:01, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm back for a moment in response to a good-humored comment on my user talk from MjolnirPants. After re-reading WP:PUBLICFIGURE I'm changing my tune--this does not appear to be a BLP vio, my mistake. That said, I think we should use caution in how we approach this subject and, as PUBLICFIGURE suggests, avoid the more inflammatory / less necessary allegations. Also, folks, please try to assume good faith and play nice. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:52, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
These salacious materials have not been verified to be accurate, and BLP would seem to indicate it should be excluded until the sources of the materials can be verified. Right now, these materials are unsubstantiated gossip. Octoberwoodland (talk) 17:22, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
The section already has 28 references. There is already a citation to a Reliable Source on virtually every sentence. Please specify what material you think needs "more thorough sourcing". If you cannot point to the statements in the section that you believe are inadequately sourced, I am going to remove the tag. --MelanieN (talk) 18:01, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
So are we also going to remove the Pizzagate scandal from pages it is on ? after all it is just all salacious unsubstantiated rumor. Sorry, but this is highly notable (I.E. multiple RS have noticed it). It does not fail LP, as long as we make it clear this is an allegation.Slatersteven (talk) 17:28, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
It is a dubious document which is being attributed to a former intelligence spy, but there is no concrete evidence the document is even genuine. It's purported author has not come forward to verify he wrote it -- its just gossip in the press. BLP would direct that this garbage, fake news story be removed from this article until it can be verified as accurate. Octoberwoodland (talk) 17:32, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Well, like I previously stated, there is no concrete evidence that this document is genuine. It's attributed to anonymous sources, whether covered by the press or not, so since when do we allow anonymous sources of materials to pass BLP muster? Trump has stated its fake news -- I would think he would know since he is the subject of the document. Octoberwoodland (talk) 17:46, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
No, it's attributed to Christopher Steele, which multiple RS have conformed. And as to what Donny says, he has never told a fib?Slatersteven (talk) 17:54, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
I am having trouble finding a press quote from Christopher Steele taking credit for this document. Do you have a reference with an interview by the press where Steele assumes responsibility for writing this document? I have read this document cover to cover and it reads like it was written by a high school teenager, not an intelligence operative. Octoberwoodland (talk) 17:57, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
The tag does not serve any useful purpose. It might be needed to bring attention to the section, but it already got a lot of attention. In addition, contrary to the tag, the section is well sourced. My very best wishes (talk) 17:59, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Our approach here has been that we do not report anything about the alleged contents of the report - since it is unverified and a good deal of it would probably constitute a BLP violation. What we ARE reporting is the existence of a report saying that the Russians have information about Trump, and the various public reactions to this report. The fact that such a report exists is not gossip - it was reported by U.S. intelligence agencies. It has been front page news for days and there is no way to suppress its very existence at Misplaced Pages. --MelanieN (talk) 17:53, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
This is very reasonable approach. I concur with your assessment. I have read through these sources and I am having a hard time accepting this document is a formal report from MI16 -- it may be a fake or it may be genuine, time will tell. Octoberwoodland (talk) 18:00, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
It is NOT a formal report from MI16. It is a report from a private investigative firm, headed by a former MI16 operative. --MelanieN (talk) 18:02, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Yes, certainly. BTW, when exactly this report was headed to the FBI? I thought it was earlier than on October 31, 2016. Was the date of the initial distribution published somewhere? This date is probably important to note. My very best wishes (talk) 18:09, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
I was wondering about this too: "when exactly this report was headed to the FBI?" David Corn wrote about the report ("dossier") in an article published on 31 October 2016 (A Veteran Spy Has Given the FBI Information Alleging a Russian Operation to Cultivate Donald Trump) but did not publish its contents. In that article, someone whom Corn later identified as Steele said that he gave the report to a contact of his at the FBI in early July 2016. Steele was first retained by the political consultants in Washington D.C. to write the report in early June 2016. All we know with certainty is that Senator John McCain gave the report directly to James Comey, the FBI director, in "late 2016" according to McCain's official statement on 11 January 2017. I am not sure when the FBI first received the report. It could have been in July 2016 (from Steele), or in September 2016 as that is when Corn said that Democrat Harry Reid was complaining that the FBI was investigating Hillary Clinton but not Donald Trump.--FeralOink (talk) 05:49, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
At this point, this story is big enough (and it's still growing) so that
We probably do need a separate article on it.
In one way or another we do have to discuss in the article what's actually in the dossier. Of course we shouldn't rely on the dossier directly but should use secondary reliable sources (not BuzzFeed) which discuss the contents.
More relevant and notable info missing from the article: "active duty CIA officers dealing with the case file (said) that there was "more than one tape", "audio and video", on "more than one date", in "more than one place" - in the Ritz-Carlton in Moscow and also in St Petersburg - and that the material was "of a sexual nature"..
Or "Last April, the CIA director was shown intelligence that worried him. It was - allegedly - a tape recording of a conversation about money from the Kremlin going into the US presidential campaign."
Then there's the whole thing about the rejected FISA application. ("three of Mr Trump's associates were the subject of the inquiry. "But it's clear this is about Trump," he said.")
Likewise, strangely, the fact that the source has been deemed "credible", which was emphasized by most sources reporting on the dossier (for example, BBC) is absent from the article.
Basically, every reliable newspaper out there is reporting this up, down, sideways and diagonally, but we're still talking about whether to mention it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:10, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
From what I understand from the other editors the existence of this document can be verified but the actual content of this document and its salacious content cannot with certainty be verified as factual and would probably violate BLP. Octoberwoodland (talk) 19:50, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
The source, Steele, may be credible, but there are at least two problems with his report/dossier. First, it contains errors, although the significance of those errors is unclear. More importantly, the salacious content is not verified, nor verifiable (according to most news media, including BuzzFeed). So, the document exists, but we don't know if its contents constitute factual evidence of Russian influence on Trump and the 2016 election. I suppose we need to wait until the FBI or the Senate's investigation releases a statement about the veracity...?--FeralOink (talk) 05:49, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
I know! Let's do what CNN was planning! First we will report the true statement that "US intelligence agencies presented evidence Trump has been compromised". This is true of course but the key is this: Second we will hide behind BLP to prevent releasing the contents of the "compromising information" that any rationale person would consider ridiculous and implausable. That way we can slander Trump by saying " Trump has been compromised" without allowing anyone to challenge or refute the validity of the evidence (because that would be a BLP violation). LOL. 73.10.160.126 (talk) 16:50, 17 January 2017 (UTC) This template must be substituted.
I don't think sarcasm is the best way to make your point here. It seems you might have a valid concern about this article, or a helpful proposal on what to change, but it's hard to determine what that is because of your conversational style. If you have something to contribute, please do that in a straightforward manner. Bradv17:02, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
My point is simple. You can't say "documents indicate Trump was compromised by Russia" unless you're also going to say "the documents are implausible and ridiculous". A rationale human being may believe that Russia has compromising information on Trump... but no rationale human being believes Trump rented a hotel room and hired hookers to urinate on the bed specifically because Barack Obama had stayed there. If you're going to include the dossier it should be explicitly called out as ridiculous. There are plenty of credible sources who have called it exactly that. It's amazing to me that some guys from 4chan make up the most egregious fake news they can, pass it off to the media and opposition research groups, and just because CNN puts it in print the people on wikipedia are claiming it is from "a reliable source." What is reliable about printing unvetted allegations from opposition research groups?
Let's be real: There is no reliable source for this information. Just because CNN is a "reliable source" generally does not mean it is a reliable source in this case. 107.0.155.16 (talk) 22:08, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
IP, I agree with your overall point, but the stuff you're saying about CNN is both ridiculous and demonstrably wrong. They never credulously reported on the contents as if they were verified truth. No-one has, outside of a few far-left-wing sources that we wouldn't trust, anyways. Also, the dossier was produced by Christopher Steele, not "some guys from 4chan." 4chan is pretty much entirely pro-Trump, anyways. MjolnirPantsTell me all about it.22:45, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
The problem is that CNN did not report the contents even though they had them. CNN knew that the contents were not credible yet decided to report half the story anyway: They reported that there was evidence Russia had compromising information on Trump and then they withheld the details. That's skeezy. At least when Buzzfeed reported it they provided the actual dossier so a critical reader could determine for themselves that the claims were incredible. If not for Buzzfeed having released the entire dossier, CNN would still be reporting as fact that "17 intelligence agencies" had presented evidence that "Russia has compromising information on Trump". That's real skeezy. 2601:47:4180:7953:F534:3FA2:3FE7:4DC6 (talk) 16:19, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Technically what they were reporting was true: There was evidence that Russian had compromising information on Trump. But CNN choose to withhold additional information from their readers: That the contents of the report were not only not credible... but they were ridiculous.
At least when Buzzfeed reported the story they provided the actual dossier. This allowed a critical reader to come to their own conclusion. And I think most reasonable people would conclude that the "evidence" is ridiculous. If not for Buzzfeed having released the dossier, CNN would still be reporting, as fact, that "17 intelligence agencies" had presented evidence that "Russia has compromising information on Trump".
How can CNN be a credible source when they intentionally withheld information? Whether intentional or not, their reporting had (or would have had) the effect of creating a false impression among their consumers that there was credible evidence that Russian had compromising information on Trump. There is no such credible evidence. The dossier is incredible.
As to 4chan, they were the ones who leaked that story to Ricky Williams which is how Christopher Steele got it. From him it went to McCain and then to FBI Director Comey and beyond. It's actually very disturbing. 2601:47:4180:7953:F534:3FA2:3FE7:4DC6 (talk) 16:32, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
New McClatchy report confirms some key details.. need integration in article.
Steele is in hiding from the press and refusing to answer any questions or report on his sources, his dossier is worthless unless he reveals his sources and provide some actual evidence. The fact that he met some unnamed CIA person in Italy and gave him unverified details of what he was selling is laughable and unworthy of any report anywhere. All of the stuff you want to add is trash, laughable. Govindaharihari (talk) 20:37, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Regarding the commentary by Jeffrey Carr and Scott Ritter, which were recently removed, I'd like to ask, "what constitutes 'marginal commentary'?" Is it commentary an editor dislikes? Is it commentary that was made in the margins of a page? I'm just curious, because looking through the history of this page, the only pattern I can see is that "marginal" views seems to always coincide with views editors applying the label personally disagree with. I'm wondering, for example, why a HuffPost piece written by Robert McElvaine is not "marginal," while the views Jeffrey Carr, cited in Harper's Magazine, are "marginal." If someone has a better explanation than the one I've proposed, please enlighten me. -Thucydides411 (talk) 05:37, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Right. By the same token, comments by Glenn Greenwald have been refuted, claiming he was "not an expert". Well, if Greenwald is not qualified commenting on US intelligence, then neither are 80% of cited commenters. I shall now restore this material. — JFG09:02, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
There seems to be a concerted effort on this page to remove criticism of the US government or intelligence agencies under the guise of "UNDUE". However, UNDUE is part of NPOV, which tries to represent all major viewpoints of a topic published by reliable sources. Thus, if a reliable source publishes an opposing view, then it's our job to report it with proper attribution. That said, I've removed nonspecific criticism like "cybersecurity services may overstate their conclusions," though more specific accusations can be included. Gravity09:18, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
I agree about the misuse of WP:UNDUE. I don't think, however, that the "overstate" claim was non-specific - it was made directly in the context of the Russian hacking allegations. -Thucydides411 (talk) 17:06, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
As far as Greenwald goes, "widely known" is not the same thing as "qualified". He's not. Not an "expert". Seriously, it's like everytime Greenwald sneezes some starry eyed fan of his has to run over here to Misplaced Pages and try to cram it into some article somewhere. I'd say Carr and Steinberg are borderline. Ritter also not credible.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:27, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Your personal opinion about Greenwald doesn't change the fact that he is one of the major global media voices at present. This looks a lot like WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. Do you have any evidence based arguments to remove Greenwald's commentary? -Darouet (talk) 19:27, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
What the hell is a "major global media voice at present"? He got some money. He started a newspaper. He uses the newspaper to pontificate and print his own opinions. It's basically a WP:SPS. And burden is on you to show Greenwald's commentary is somehow notable.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:18, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
I think that breaking the Snowden case speaks for itself, as does being the flagship writer for The Intercept. But if you look at wikipedia page hits over the last two months you'll see that compared to other figures mentioned in this article, Greenwald does pretty well:
It's almost comical to look at. He is significantly more read about on Misplaced Pages than CNN anchors Jim Acosta, Christiane Amanpour, Wolf Blitzer, Fareed Zakaria... -Darouet (talk) 21:04, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
Not clear why this should be some kind of criteria. I can find all sorts of articles about all sorts of ridiculous people who get viewed more than these - doesn't mean we'd include them.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:34, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
Apparently nothing will ever convince you. What if I start attacking the credibility of this Adrian Chen character whose biggest claims to fame is seeing patterns of online trolls and making inferences about how all of this was organized directly by Mr. Putin because he happens to hold a grudge against Mrs. Clinton? How childish is that? Oh sure, he's an "expert" because he once outed a troll for clicks and profit. Lack of ethics much? — JFG23:44, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
Mr. Chen is cited in this article as a journalist, not a cybersecurity start-up consultant graduate student exchanging a free website mention for some facile and ultimately irrelevant comment about a redacted and unclassified report that's culled from the vastly more penetrating and undisputed official classified assessment. Anywaze, Mr. Chen is cited as giving a rather balanced report -- as befits a fine journalist. So, what is your concern about Mr. Chen? We're all ears. SPECIFICOtalk00:17, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
No, it's more like every time anyone cites the Intercept for anything, someone throws a tantrum. The only argument is that the Intercept sometimes reaches different conclusions from the Daily Beast or the Wash Po. Therefore it's "undue". How on earth is this an argument? As for Ritter, he's obviously fringe. Remember the time he spread the conspiracy theory that Bush was overstating his WMD allegations? Thank God, RS like Judith Miller told us the "mainstream" view (mainstream for about 5% of the world's population). Guccisamsclub (talk) 22:15, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO: VM's reinstatement of your edit, after it was challenged by reversion, is a clear violation of WP:ARBAPDS. You are also running dangerously close to breaching these sanctions by edit warring to keep your edit - despite the fact that it was challenged by reversion - by repeatedly threatening all who disagree with you. Stop threatening other editors, stop edit warring, and use the talk page. -Darouet (talk) 19:27, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Bass Ackwards, m'lady. Please review the policies and Arbcom decision and sanctions. That will save the talk page from a lot of clutter. SPECIFICOtalk19:36, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Reading through that case, I have no sense whatsoever that you are right to reinstate your preferred version, while others are prohibited from doing so. On the other hand, the very bad editing environment that the case describes applies, perfectly, to this situation. The issue of consensus and good faithed editing behavior will be especially difficult for all of us to resolve on our own, given the acrimony that has been seen on this page. SPECIFICO there is plenty of blame to go around for that, but your constant accusations and threats go a long way to creating a battleground atmosphere here.
I think maintaining mainstream voices who are skeptical of definite Russian involvement is very important to this article. The recent RfC, in which a majority of editors preferred to not include the word "allegations" in the title, nevertheless showed that many editors thought it should be present (the official RfC result was "no consensus"). Given the editing history here, I'd proposal mediation to resolve the question of whether Ritter or Greenwald can be removed from the article. -Darouet (talk) 20:00, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I left a note on your talk page asking you to back up your disparagement with some diffs so I can understand. I think you must have me confused with somebody else. somebody else -- I don't edit the article much here and I don't see any time I reinserted the same text twice. Anyway, the article talk page is not the place for personal attacks. SPECIFICOtalk20:04, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
SPECIFICO, in this particular instance you removed article commentary by Carr and Ritter (on the 23rd), and your edit was reverted by Thucydides (same day). Casprings reinstated your edit (same day), and was this time reverted by FallingGravity (same day). A day later, VM again attempted to reinstate your edit, and I reverted him (24th).
I see that MrX had originally tried removing Ritter's view on the 18th, and was reverted by Guccisamsclub (same day).
On the other hand, I see that Carr's view was added on the 14th by Tobby72, and reverted on the same day by you. Carr was quoted by Andrew Cockburn in Harper's Magazine: a major political commentator in a major magazine. For that reason your one-word edit summary, "undue," is aggravating to other editors because it's clearly non-obvious, and therefore comes across as partisan. SPECIFICO, do you understand why editors would respond poorly to one-word removal of carefully sourced statements to major magazines/contributors? Nevertheless you were removing Tobby's added material (I haven't seen that it had been there earlier), and so you're technically correct that this material may be removed according to the general sanctions. I'll self revert on that point.
You're correct that you haven't edited again (in recent history) on this particular content - though I wrote "repeatedly edit warred" because the last time you threatened me with DS, I saw that I was in fact reinstating content you yourself had added. -Darouet (talk) 23:25, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, so why are you reinstating content which was clearly challenged. I mean hell, you provide the diff where Specifco (or Mr. X) challenges the material yourself, then proceed to violate discretionary sanctions anyway.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:20, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
The arbitration remedy states, "All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)." MrX had attempted to remove material present for some time in the article, and their edit was "challenged (via reversion)." I self-reverted in an instance where content was added, and then quickly reverted, i.e. "challenged (via reversion)." If you read through the whole case, it becomes clear that the major issue is using the talk page or other normal, collegial means to resolve content disputes. There is no wikilawyering that allows one side to use DS to keep their "preferred version," but not another. Again, I'm suggesting that we go through mediation. You and I actually did that once and I think it was pretty productive. -Darouet (talk) 20:56, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) No, let's keep calm and find a dignified way: I would approve mediation or WP:DRN about the credibility, balance and weight of various sources used in this article. — JFG22:53, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
@Guccisamsclub: what do you mean by "other editors" and "have at it?" I'd like to avoid POV-driven removal of mainstream criticism of this whole story. I also think it'd be helpful to find some context in which a productive conversation can be had about content, sources, where editors trust one another to edit constructively. I think that's possible and should be a goal. -Darouet (talk) 22:49, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I don't know every one of Misplaced Pages's policies, but I know enough about the five pillars to know that good editing practices, rigorous scholarship, and civility don't violate, but are rather the backbone of Misplaced Pages policies. -Darouet (talk) 02:02, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
Don't want to look like I am ignoring this, since the title heading seems to come from my edit. That said, just have been busy.Casprings (talk) 23:34, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
It's disruptive to put these personal attacks on an article talk page. And it's tendentious to repeat the same mistaken accusations without reading the policies, guidelines and Sanctions you keep misinterpreting. No more of this on the article talk page, please. SPECIFICOtalk00:04, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
SPECIFICO: in response to your accusations, I provided diffs showing that VM violated the sanctions you've invoked. You have provided no evidence. What is your response to the diffs I provided? If you are seriously interested in going to AE, either take me or VM there, or stop making empty and inflammatory threats. If you have any commentary on content whatsoever, please provide that. I am tired of threatening remarks. They begin to look like a pattern of personal intimidation: that would not be tolerated in a professional environment and I would be amazed if we had to put up with it here. -Darouet (talk) 02:02, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
No, what you inadvertently showed is that you (or Gucci) actually violated the sanction. Like I said, you linked to the edit where the content was challenged yourself.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:23, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
Policy does not say we should take the view we prefer, treat it as fact and ignore opposing views. Mainstream media are still treating the "interference" as allegations, unlike the title of this article. So it is correct to mention opposing views. TFD (talk) 03:06, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
How did that reasonable comment land in this unrelated location? This thread is about citing the opinions of non-recognized individuals including the self-published journalist Greenwald as significant experts whose opinions need to be in the article. SPECIFICOtalk03:32, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
I can't take your concern about Greenward seriously at all, because that concern does not extend to other non-cyber-sec-experts in the "Experts" section, when those people make claims you WP:LIKE. And the fact that you are at pains to delete Carr as cited in Harpers, shows that you have no concern for "expertise" whatsoever. Calling GG "self-published" is tendentious and—strictly speaking—not true. You and VM not using RS, "recognized", "self-published", "marginal" etc in a neutral way, nor are you backing them up with sourced arguments (or any arguments). Remember the onus is on you to prove how exactly the Intercept is "unreliable". "Undue" is proof of nothing, nor is it a magic word to make stuff you don't like go away. These are just slogans/slurs that reflect your personal feelings and opinions. And they deserve exactly the same amount of consideration as fact-free invectives like "lamestream media" or "Russophobic Western press": none. Volunteer Marek seems to have a visceral hatred for GG and, as he puts it, "his rag" (the Intercept), which he frequently substitutes for argument (I can find the diffs if anyone seriously doubts this). Guccisamsclub (talk) 12:29, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
1. Please review the meaning of "tendentious". 2. I have not edited this article much at all, but I have argued against many non-expert "experts" who, in addition to the self-published non-expert journalist, include largely consultants who were available on short notice to provide snippets to bloggers and journalists rather than true accredited technical and national security experts. I've also raised the issue that RS state that the JAR for example does not claim to present the entire file, including conclusive classified evidence, upon which the fact of Russian intervention was verified by all experts who in fact were privy to the full file. 3. Please review WP:BURDEN which explains that the onus is on the editor who wishes to include, not to exclude, bad sources. You have that one backwards. Finally, it's not constructive for editors to speculate about what other editors might "like." If that's a subject that interests you, please don't share it here. SPECIFICOtalk14:35, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
Please review WP:BURDEN which explains that the onus is on the editor who wishes to include, not to exclude, bad sources. For the thousandth time: why are they bad? Have they been clearly debunked? Great, tell us how, and we can delete them. Has someone challenged their conclusions? Great, cite these people. You just think the Intercept is "bad", unlike the "good" American outlets who happen to be less critical of the US govt? Ok, whatever. I think those outlets are "bad" and the Intercept is "good", so what? I don't edit articles or talk pages on that premise, while, as Derouet has shown, you do. "including conclusive classified evidence, upon which the fact of Russian intervention was verified by all experts who in fact were privy to the full file". So you're going to base the article on a hypothetical body of evidence that's not in the public domain? How do you even cite that, technically speaking? But it's a highly original idea: before, governments had to at least concoct evidence, now they can just say they "have it" (Trump has "the best evidence"). Post-truth and all that... If you have special clearance, by all means leak this wonderful evidence to the press—THEN we can discuss it. Guccisamsclub (talk) 16:59, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
This back-and-forth about one particular source is getting really tedious. Just let it go, it's attributed, each reader can make up their own mind by reading the sources, pro and contra. That's what Misplaced Pages is all about, educating readers through the voices of reliable sources. If some editors are ready to fight to death against Mr. Greenwald's credibility, the correct forum for this is WP:RSN. If they prefer to continue this battleground behaviour on the talk page, the correct forum is WP:DRN. — JFG18:52, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
There's no consensus to include these pundits. Rather than vent your frustration, you can post an RfC if you disagree. Please be sure to formulate a simple neutral statement. You might wish to run it up the flagpole here before posting. Ill-formed RfC's usually fail. SPECIFICOtalk19:42, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
I agree with JFG, but I am also unhappy with the edit warring and acrimony, and think we would reach a consensus with the help of a neutral, third party. @Casprings and Guccisamsclub:, @Thucydides411, JFG, FallingGravity, Volunteer Marek, SPECIFICO, and The Four Deuces: I'd like to emphasize I'm happy to go to mediation if people feel strongly enough about this, are convinced their arguments really are in line with policy, and that a mediator would support their stance and/or help arrive at a solution. -Darouet (talk) 19:47, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO:, you write: There's no consensus to include these pundits. Sure, we understand you don't think Greenwald is credible. Now, by the same token, I could say there is no consensus to include Robert S. McElvaine, because I don't consider him credible. This kind of argument does nothing to improve the article. You've been here long enough to know that part of being a Wikipedian is accepting that you don't always get things your way, and you must accept the reasonable opinions of other contributors instead of lynching those who happen to disagree with you on the credibility of this or that source. — JFG20:22, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO:: "There's no consensus to include these pundits." There's also no argument for excluding them. You and Volunteer Marek have simply asserted that a whole host of people are "marginal," "undue" or "not credible." You use these labels completely subjectively to remove any opinions you politically disagree with. This politically motivated editing has become obvious across a whole number of pages. Again, what makes Ritter (former chief weapons inspector in Iraq and intelligence expert) "not credible," or Pierre Sprey (legendary intelligence analyst, cited in a prestigious American political magazine, Harper's) "not credible," but Robert McElvaine (a relatively unknown commentator, published in HuffPost, a news aggregator of middling quality) credible? The only logic I see here is that the users labeling these views "not credible," "marginal," etc. don't politically like these views. I don't see any consistent stance of journalistic quality of the publication, or expertise and notability of the commentators. -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:33, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
The section is about "experts". Greenwald is not an expert. More, since he's publishing himself in his own newspaper, that's a WP:SPS and a non-notable opinion until other reliable sources comment on it. There. That's the argument, not a "simple assertion" as you falsely ... asserted. (and "legendary"? "prestigious"? Usually when people start in with the oleaginous, unctuous, and obsequious adjectives it's to divert attention away from the fact that there's not much there there).Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:48, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
He's not the only editor and he must maintain certain standards, unless he wants to run the paper into the ground and alienate numerous contributors (none of which is happening). Does he have a "platform" at the Intercept? Sure, like any regular columnist. But it's not like you'd allow any non-GG commentary from the Intercept either, because you self-admittedly hate not only GG, but his whole "rag". BTW, Glenn Greenwald is a journalist. Guccisamsclub (talk) 21:02, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
As Guccisamsclub says, Glenn Greenwald is not self-published at The Intercept. He's an established journalist, who previously wrote for Salon.com and The Guardian, and now is one of the main contributors to The Intercept. He also happened to break one of the most significant cybersecurity-related stories in history. But Volunteer Marek, let's look past your political dislike of Greenwald. How do you explain the deletion of Scott Ritter's and Pierre Sprey's comments? Pierre Sprey is a very well known former intelligence analyst, and is quoted in Harper's, a very old and prestigious American political and cultural magazine (to be exact, Harper's is the 2nd oldest magazine still published in the US). Is your judgment of what is "not credible" better than that of the Harper's editors? -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:13, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
"until other sources comment on it" Tons of sources have reported and commented on Glenn Greenwald's opinions.
"He's not the only editor" - no, but he's the one who started it (though he doesn't fund it).
"he must maintain certain standards, unless he wants to run the paper into the ground and alienate numerous contributors" - true for any self published source that has a staff.
"you self-admittedly hate not only GG, but his whole "rag"" - you're making shit up.
"Glenn Greenwald is not self-published at The Intercept" - for all practical purposes, he is. He was approached with funding to set it up and run it. So yeah.
"He also happened to break one of the most significant cybersecurity-related stories in history" - while he was at the Guardian, not at the Intercept.
"let's look past your political dislike of Greenwald" - you're making stuff up.
"How do you explain the deletion of Scott Ritter's and Pierre Sprey's comments" - I'm more ambiguous about these, although I don't see much reason to include Ritter. Again, this is the "he was once good at baseball so we should take his advice about golf" kind of stuff. Don't see reason to include it. Lemme look at Sprey again.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:33, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
@Volunteer Marek: "until other reliable sources comment on it." Tons and tons of reliable sources have covered Glenn Greenwald's opinions. See: . If you don't accept these sources then I don't know what to tell you. Gravity05:56, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Actually, that'll work for me. I'm fine with Greenwald then though I would prefer we used one of these secondary sources rather than the Intercept.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:06, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Why not accept you hate GG and move on? But since you asked: here's VM saying he "can't stand reading GG", after GG's criticism of a defamatory Guardian piece made The Guadian issue a retraction. I know, insufferable, and completely unreliable, unlike the Guardian. Here's VM saying "GG's rag" is unreliable (exactly like Fox News and a blog post by John Pilger, I kid you not) for reporting on a simple fact about the contents of the Podesta emails. There is a bunch of other commentary and edits from VM, where he insists that the Intercept is not-RS, wp:SPS, undue, ad nauseam, but without giving any contradicting sources to show that Greenwald is full of shit (cause they don't exist). We're all familiar with that, so I trust there's no need to demonstrate. His attitude toward people tangentially associated with GG, like Assange follows the same general pattern of partisan hostility. To be fair, hatred for GG and whistleblowers has become pretty endemic lately in the mainstream American press, and among wikipedia editors, so it's not just VM. Guccisamsclub (talk) 00:23, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, assessing the magazine critically is not "hating it". You're ascribing opinions and feelings to me in order to try and devalue my argument. Because you don't really have one yourself. Why do you hate America? Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:22, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
p.s., I hadn't noticed it before but come to think of it, the McElvaine bit is UNDUE in my opinion. So nstead of coming here AH-HA and all, why didn't you just delete it and see whether anyone cares??? SPECIFICOtalk21:20, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
Darouet, mediation has its limits and would not be helpful here where a group of editors is determined to present a narrative regardless of evidence or policy. One of them is now arguing that if someone's article is published by a company that publishes their articles they are by definition self-published. Mediation only works if we all accept the same policies and guidelines and generally accepted definitions and rules of logic. TFD (talk) 21:46, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
To be fair, he was saying that a column is "self-published" if its author happens to be on the editorial board of the paper that publishes said column. It's not really true, but it's something to cling to. Guccisamsclub (talk) 21:59, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
Actually not even that. What I'm saying is that if someone is approach by an investor with funding to start a media outlet, then that someone starts a media outlet with that funding and becomes its editor, and then uses that media outlet to publish their own pieces, it's pretty much self published. If someone came to me and said "here's 500 million bucks go start a newspaper" and then I used that to publish my opinions of the world in it, that would be self-published regardless of what title I effectively gave myself.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:29, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
So your problem with the Intercept is too much editorial independence and lack of market pressure? Or that its editors (not only GG) contribute content? Some combination of the two? Anyway, you may continue to call it "self-published" according to your own definition, but it's not WP:SPS. It's also not as if GG treats this "rag" as some kind of personal blog, which is something you are implying. If you go to theintercept.com (consult with your doctor first, in case of emergency, go to the Daily Beast and read an article on Russian propaganda immediately), you'll have to scroll quite a bit before you find the first GG article, and the article reports on the death of a Brazilian anti-corruption judge in a plane crash (I know, just more pontification from the insufferable GG). If someone came to me and said "here's 500 million bucks go start a newspaper" and then I used that to publish my opinions of the world in it, that would be self-published regardless of what title I effectively gave myself. Greenwald is not the only editor, the paper is not his private property, and the operative word here is if... Guccisamsclub (talk) 11:21, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
"So your problem with the Intercept is too much editorial independence and lack of market pressure" - Nope, that's not it at all. My problem with the Intercept is that it pretty much is a glorified blog for Greenwald, his own personal soapbox (though I guess they hired a few more people to make it less obvious). Will you quit putting words in my mouth and making up silly little strawmen and pretending I'm saying something I'm not? This is like the third or fourth comment from you where you write "So you're saying that {something ridiculous that I'm not saying at all}". It's sort of obnoxious and tiresome.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:49, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
"glorified blog for Greenwald". I really don't see that. Greenwald writes one out of 20+ articles (many are not even opinion pieces). Anyway that's your personal opinion, and opinions are like assholes. I think MSNBC is a unglorified soap-box for the DNC, and the Wash Po is a glorified soapbox for the moneyed elite. Guccisamsclub (talk) 16:20, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Gucci, if those words really represent your approach to editing Misplaced Pages, they disqualify you from editing here. WP is not the place to "right great wrongs". If for whatever reason you cannot devote your efforts here to representing what is said in mainstream Reliable Sources such as Washington Post, you will end up like the many other POV American Politcs editors who are no longer permitted to disrupt these articles. The rest of us are volunteering our time and attention to follow WP site policy and guidelines. SPECIFICOtalk16:32, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
US Gov't Conclusion Russia Intervened
My recent edit to conform the article text to the statements in the cited Washington Post article has been reverted. This is a DS violation, since it restored the defective wording that I challenged by reversion. Here is the WaPo statement that verifies the text that has been expunged:
The response, unveiled just weeks before President Obama leaves office, culminates months of internal debate over how to react to Russia’s election-year provocations. In recent months, the FBI and CIA have concluded that Russia intervened repeatedly in the 2016 election, leaking damaging information in an attempt to undermine the electoral process and help Donald Trump take the White House.
There's no DS violation there. You made a change, and I reverted it. It would, however, be a DS violation for you to restore your contested wording. If you look the additional sourcing I included, you'll see that the word "accused" is appropriate. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:49, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
This gambit to dilute and deny the verified statements in the cited recent sources by -->>adding a third source from two months prior, when the full story and full conclusion were not yet published -- is wan and risible. Kindly reinstate the verified text that cites the most recent sources - December 29 I believe, and as always, if future events require changes in the article to conform to the mainstream narrative of events, I expect those also to be conformed to future article text. SPECIFICOtalk22:56, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
"Accuse" is better than concluded in terms of language usage. The U.S. government makes accusations but it is actually individuals within them who draw conclusions. In this case conclusions were drawn by intelligence teams. BTW now that Trump is president, do you plan on treating his administration's pronouncements with the same degree of reliability as Obama's? TFD (talk) 23:15, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
It's the published source, not the speakers we must parrot. If in the future the intelligence assessment is RS reported to have changed, then the article must be adjusted to reflect that. In the future. But there can be no doubt that the transparent ploy of adjusting it to the past is a bizarre bit of nonsense. I'm sure most editors agree that this feeble gambit of using a deprecated press account several months past its sell-by date is unworthy of this community. SPECIFICOtalk23:31, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
The current article overwhelmingly conforms to the official US-govt narrative, with some commentary saying that the publicly-available evidence may be a rough around the edges (and plenty of others saying the case is ROCKSOLID). Unlike several established media outlets, the article does not call the Russian angle "alleged," and treats it as proven fact. If you delete the the few critical bits, you will simply turn the article into an a blatant propaganda piece, thereby discrediting it (at least until the US govt declassifies it's "best evidence", if it has any). If you want to go down that route, it's fine by me (though others disagree). Guccisamsclub (talk) 23:24, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
No, your assessment is incorrect. The article overwhelmingly conforms to sources. The word "rocksolid" does not appear anywhere in the article - which means you're basically attacking strawmen. The article does not "conform with the official US-govt narrative". Really, have you checked in on the "official US govt" lately? All it does is report the assessments of the US intelligence community as it is reported in reliable sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:37, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO: Both of the sources I added use the word "accuse," so no, I'm not going to reinstate your change to the lede. I trust that you won't add it back in without consensus. -Thucydides411 (talk) 01:35, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Please respond to my point. This is an article about contemporary events. Therefore we use the most recent Reliable Sources. A deprecated source from two months prior to the stable consensus version is defective on its face. Perhaps you can explain to the community why my edit solely for the purpose of conforming the article text to the stable consensus sources would prompt you to introduce an out-of-date deprecated source that describes a previous date, no longer current and how that could possibly improve the article's lede. The lede is written in the present tense. SPECIFICOtalk02:08, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Just read the sources. The USA Today source, from 29 December, should lay your concern about using recent sources to rest. In any case, the fact that the US government has made accusations against Russia hasn't changed. Although more details have come out since October, the fact that the US government has "accused" Russia of hacking to interfere with the elections is still an accurate summary. There's really nothing more to add. -Thucydides411 (talk) 03:15, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
You haven't responded to the central point, which is that you substituted weaker sources and then violated DS by inserting them prior to talk page consensus. That means that at some point your edit will disappear. SPECIFICOtalk03:29, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
What do you mean by "weaker sources"? You keep claiming anything you don't like is weakly sourced, no matter whether it's sourced with reputable newspapers or not. And you keep throwing around accusations of DS violations, your theory seeming to be that all your edits are protected from reversion by the sanctions. When you change the article (as you did in the lede) and it is challenged, that is not, in itself, a DS violation, so stop constantly threatening us all. -Thucydides411 (talk) 05:51, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Kovalev
Alright, I'm fine with Greenwald being in there given the sources provided by FallingGravity above. But can someone explain why this sentence is in the article:
"Russian journalist Alexey Kovalev, who runs a website debunking Russian propaganda, said: "There are many legitimate reasons to criticise RT, but the report singles out the channel for all the wrong reasons. Covering protests and other social and political fissures is a perfectly legitimate media activity."
It appears to be completely off topic. It's plopped right smack in the middle of text about other stuff and just looks like someone accidentally copy pasted it in there.
But the problem with all the quotes and snippets culled from obscure websites and the press of foreign lands is that they are being used for a SYNTH message. The various unclassified public statements are not the basis for the US Gov't conclusion that the Russians interfered. The pundits cited here are for the most part not the top civilian experts but rather a collation of individuals who were willing to shoot from the hip for a little free press time and -- as SZ states -- possibly to get some consulting and corporate I.T. business for themselves. Their comments for the most part relate to the unclassified statements as if the US Gov't conclusion was based solely on the evidence revealed therein. This leads to the SYNTH conclusion that the US Gov't conclusion was based on insufficient data and analysis. So in a nutshell, we have comments about the published reports being used to insinuate that the US Governement had no sufficient evidence for its conclusion. More experienced, accredited and recognized technical experts in counterespionage, cybersecurity, and software have not been cited. One or two of the commentators cited in this article are notable experts whose opinion is worth mention in an encyclopedia. The rest is a fruit soup of irrelevant internet babble that should be scraped from the article. The current Greenwald bit, which treats him as a journalist is innocuous. SPECIFICOtalk14:44, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Referencing and citation: not checked
.svg)
Agree Adotchar| reply here 10:36, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
