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DYK queue status There are currently 4 filled queues. Humans, please consider promoting a prep to queue if you have the time! v t e Earliest time for next DYK update: 00:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC) Current time: 13:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Update frequency: once every 12 hours Last updated: 91 minutes ago( verify reset purge )

This is where the Did you know section on the main page, its policies and the featured items can be discussed.

Transclusions on nomination page, suggested solution

We have to do something soon. The nominations page is quickly dissolving into nothing but wikilinks with no transclusions. Yes, I know the Prep/Queue page has always been used as the holding area. We cannot control how other people edit nomination templates - i.e. large amounts of text, template comments, additional image suggestions. The way it has always been is not the way that will work for the future.

Below is my suggestion. — Maile (talk) 16:59, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Suggested solution

• The nomination page stays but only includes those which have received no approval whatsoever.
  • Reviewers who only are only interested in non-problem hooks have less to scroll through to find something of interest.
  • This would make a cleaner page for first-time reviewers who get confused by the glut we now have.
• The Prep/Queue page stays exactly like it is, nothing changes about how it works.
• A new subpage is created where any nomination that receives an approval is moved there by a bot (or human).
  • Special occasion holding areas, including April Fools' Day, appears at the bottom of this page. It stays consistently as is, in the fact that hooks are only moved here after approved on the main nominations page.
  • Prep promoters draw from this page.
  • Reviewers who like to check for problem areas on approved nominations look here.
  • Any disputed approval and any post-approval ALT hooks added are worked out on this subpage
  • Any hooks pulled from Prep, Queue, or the main page are put back here.

Please add comments below

Comments

• Yep, sounds like an excellent idea to me too. Opabinia regalis (talk) 21:44, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

  The bot will now used the substed the template {{*}} - it's weird that the page exceeds the transclusion limit so easily though. The previous time involved {{hat}}, {{hab}} which were being used more than once per nomination, and had several transclusions underneath as well, whereas {{*}} seems to be just a Unicode character. However I think it may be a bit of a hassle to move hooks between two pages - if you move them the moment they are seen by a human, you would probably quickly get the same problem on the second page, but moving them back and forth would be a huge hassle. Intelligentsium 00:59, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

  I know you have worked hard on the bot, but we didn't have this problem before it was activated. If the problems with it can't be ironed out soon, I think we are just going to have to retire it. That would surely be a better solution than having two separate nomination pages. Gatoclass (talk) 17:30, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

  I agree it's more trouble, but I think having a place where approved noms are gathered, for further intense scrutiny by the "eagle eyes", will extremely helpful, as well as solving the overflow problem. EEng 18:58, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

  The bot had been down for a few weeks, and this problem continued even in its absence. — Maile (talk) 19:07, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

• Support, and... can we add the provision that nom page stays open until the bot closes it (maybe at the moment the hook moves to the main page, or -- better -- at the moment the hook comes off the main page)? EEng 18:58, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

  And have any dialogue on pulled hooks happen there, so that any nominator, reviewer, or other participant on that nomination would be aware of it as long as they watch-listed the open template. I don't know the mechanics of having a bot close the nomination, but it's worth asking Shubinator if that's possible to do in conjunction with whatever else DYKupdatebot does. — Maile (talk) 21:43, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

  Exactly. I'd also like to add a further suggestion that adding the green tick (which is presumably what will trigger the bot moving the nom page to this new "approved area") should always be accompanied by a tentative designation of exactly one of the (possibly several) ALTs as the one to used. Further discussion in the "approved area" might change that, but this way once the nom moves to the "approved area" there's just a single ALT that the "eagle eyes" (our precious editors who focus on quality control) will have to focus on checking. EEng 01:01, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

  If closing a nomination just involves subst'ing the DYKsubpage template and marking it as passed (with humans responsible for moving the noms between the various pages, except for queue -> main page), DYKUpdateBot can do this while promoting the set (not while taking it down). As BlueMoonset noted, the bot will not know about comments that should go into the "2" field. With this model, how will folks know which admin promoted the nomination into the queue? Shubinator (talk) 01:16, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

  The promoter simply posts on the bottom of the nom page e.g. ALT1 to Prep4 (without image). ~~~~. The bot closes the nom as it swaps the hook set onto Main Page (i.e. at the same time the credit boxes are posted to creator/nominator talk pages) and the 2= could be Swapped onto Main Page 0800 22 Jan 2017 UTC. This way, all concerns prior to the actual main-page appearance can be discussed on the still-open nom page, where it belongs; concerns arising after that time have to go through ERRORS as now.

  I think it would be ideal if, while we're at it, we changed the bot actions of posting credits to editor Talk, and closing the nom pages, to the moment the hook set is swapped off of the main page. Then the nom page really stays open for the entire life of the hook, "cradle to grave". But I recognize this might be more complex to do. EEng 02:14, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

  Mark me as opposing the further suggestion: the reviewer should feel free to check and approve as many interesting hooks as seem appropriate and are properly support in both article and sources, but not all reviewers are the best judges of which is the best, and sometimes the person assembling a prep set will pick one good hook over another good hook because it better balances the prep set. To limit it to exactly one hook of the reviewer's choice also reverses the deference we've given to the nominator regarding proposed hooks.

  As for the promoter, may I suggest that the promoter be required to fill in the 2 field with their promotion message? The bot's closing of the page will cause the time of closure to be added to the page. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:46, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

  The reviewer can approve as many ALTs as he or she wants, but (my suggestion is) that just one of them will be designated, tentatively, as the one that will appear. Further discussion might change that, selecting a different ALT, but starting at this point there would be only one ALT on the table at a given time for a given nom, so that attention can focus on it for error-checking and so on. To increase quality and reduce errors appearing on Main Page, it's essential that the checking process begin further upstream than it does currently i.e. currently this doesn't start until Prep, and now it can start when the nom is moved to this new "approved area". But it needs to focus on one potential hook at a time; if multiple hooks are in play, the checking just can't be thorough. I don't buy that this constrains prep set assembly enough to outweigh the advantages, and again I say that the designation of a single hook is only tentative, subject to change. EEng 05:40, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

• Support. It will make it so much easier to scroll through the set of approved hooks when building prep sets. Yoninah (talk) 19:01, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support. This is an excellent suggestion. -- Notecardforfree (talk) 19:10, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support sounds fine LavaBaron (talk) 01:55, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support, since I have no major objections. I do have a couple of doubts though. First, my understanding of the technicalities is not great, but if this problem is arising from people using too many templates without substituting them, it would seem that this is relatively a small fix: and that unregulated use of templates in the review process is going to create a problem again sooner or later. So, wouldn't it make sense to create some guidelines for folks editing the nomination pages, to help with this? Second, I find that very many of the hooks that need reviewing at any given time, and indeed the ones requiring the most attention, are not "fresh" nominations, but those that have been reviewed already, but require a new reviewer for whatever reason. @Maile66: where would these fit in your scheme? Vanamonde (talk) 04:20, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

  Vanamonde93 Regarding the guidelines, it does begin to be instruction creep. We cannot control what editors really do, no matter how many guidelines we write. As we experience on this talk page, a lot of editors aren't reading the guidelines anyway. So, we can spend a lot of time spinning our wheels and complaining on the talk page about those who do what they want, but we cannot control others. As to your second question, perhaps I wasn't clear. The minute a nomination receives a passing tic, it gets moved to the new page. There it stays, and any further issues or comments happen on that page. That means turn-around ticks on review questions, pulled hooks that were already promoted. Anything. EEng has suggested we keep the template open until when/if the nomination is off the Main page. Keeping it on that page does not close out the nomination, but leaves it there in a way that anyone with a given nom template on their watch-list will be aware it needs attention. New (first time) reviewers will have an easier time with unreviewed templates than figuring out why an already approved nom is in the midst of revision for one thing or another. — Maile (talk) 13:20, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

  @Mail66 and Gatoclass: I think you're right about the guideline creep, but I didn't necessarily mean another page or another bullet point in the current set. What I mean is that we can do minor things that should still add up to something substantive. For instance, some folks mentioned templates (DYK checklist) that are only used at DYK: we can add a note to the documentation saying that they must be substituted, and also possibly have a bot substitute them every time. We can add to the DYK template edit notice, asking people to minimize their use of templates. And so forth. I imagine that other folks can think of other options. Vanamonde (talk) 16:03, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: Per Vanamonde, I think what we need to be doing is working out why this problem is occurring, and take steps to eliminate or minimize it, because it never used to occur even with 350 nominations and now it's occurring with just 150. If the number of nominations builds up again, the problem will recur. Gatoclass (talk) 06:54, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
• Comments: Keeping the nom open up until (and even through) the main page appearance seems reasonable to me, so long as the technical template issues can be addressed. I think it is fine and appropriate for a reviewer to choose a hook, but also to leave the choice open to the promoter, but I would like to see some reasoning posted. I've had a few cases where I've wondered why a hook was chosen (or not chosen), which I find frustrating and yet asking the promoter every time could get awfully intrusive given the relatively small group of set builders. Having another approved hook available is also useful in cases where an issue arises, because sometimes swapping hooks rather than pulling might be reasonable and appropriate. I would also like to see an explicit requirement that all ALTs be reviewed because I've had at least one case of offering several and only the first being reviewed / promoted on the presumption it was my preference (an incorrect assumption on that occasion, but understandable and arising from poor communication on my part). EdChem (talk) 07:15, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

  I believe you make a valid point about the ALTs being reviewed. I've noticed the same thing. If all hooks are not reviewed, then the review isn't complete. It does a disservice to both the nominator and the promoter. Also, I have no problem with the promoter leaving a small note on the template about why a given hook among several available was promoted. — Maile (talk) 13:54, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

  Yes, Maile66, with my Timothy N. Philpot nomination, only the ALT0 has been reviewed and it was my fall-back option if all the others (which I think are more interesting) are rejected on undue negativity grounds. So, I posted here at WT:DYK requesting input, but the thread attracted no responses. I'm not sure what to do because the rules technically require all ALTs to be reviewed but making an issue of my case will focus on the reviewer, who is behaving as others do and does a lot of DYK work. EdChem (talk) 14:22, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

• Support Good idea. There are currently several structural problems and the proposal looks like a sensible way forward. If there isn't one already, it would be good to have a page to document the process flow so that it's clear how a nomination progresses from page to page. Andrew D. (talk) 12:33, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
• Comment I've just converted Template:DYK checklist to use Module:DYK checklist, which makes each checklist take up about half the post-expand include size that it did before. This has resulted in 12 more nominations being visible at the bottom of Template talk:Did you know, but we are still quite a bit over the limit. — Mr. Stradivarius 01:40, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
• Comment I find it worrying that there isn't one bit about why this is happening - I don't mean technically, I mean temporally. The number of new articles continues to decline, there appears to be no (major?) change in the number of noms being posted per day, and I don't see anything about the technical limit being changed. This is the only time I've noticed it - it seems to have happened before but I assume for a short period? So why now, in 2016? Maury Markowitz (talk) 15:38, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
  • @Maury Markowitz: I think the cause of this might be the bot, which adds a bunch to text to every nomination. Pppery 20:17, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

    Ahh, so it's based on the total text, not the number of transclusions? Maury Markowitz (talk) 20:44, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

    Yep. (It's actually more complicated than that, but) Pppery 21:01, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Maury Markowitz We have actually been discussing this a great deal on this talk page. A year or two ago, our individual reviews weren't so complicated, except in the case of drawn-out threads. Most were pretty brief. But graphics, text, little check templates, and a lot of thing have increased the size of the individual nominations transcluded. We also now have the bot that does a preliminary review. However, that bot was down for several weeks, and the problem continued. When we pushed it to the limits, the visual kind of went kaflooey. Think of what happens with your browser if the cache doesn't get cleared for a long time - eventually things aren't working right on a given page. It's kind of like that. Have you read the green hatted text at the top? We've exceeded our Template limits Post expand include size, and only WMF can give us more. And that isn't likely to happen, because WMF has safeguards in place to prevent a Denial of Service attack. Little things help some, like not putting checkmark templates on the nomination. But in the long run, we'll be pushing the limits and need to come up with a solution. — Maile (talk) 21:09, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

I did, and also visited the link you have here. Neither stated this clearly, nor included any specific numbers or examples. Maury Markowitz (talk) 21:24, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Summary and implementation?

So it's one thing for there to be a lot of support, but it's another for someone to do it. What next? EEng 01:30, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

• We do need to work the mechanics of this. And we need a bot to help, perhaps Shubinator's bot or something already in existence that just need extra code for this. — Maile (talk) 02:00, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

"Just..." EEng 02:20, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

The nomination page seems to have returned to normal. Has someone actually resolved the problem, or is this as the result of some faulty nomination being promoted and archived? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:56, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Isn't that interesting? — Maile (talk) 12:29, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but it's only a matter of time before the problem comes back, and there were other good reasons for doing this. Thus I hope the extensive paid and pampered staff in charge of doing things like this get right to it. EEng 05:37, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

EEng, the problem did not fade away gradually but came to a sudden conclusion. One moment there were a host of nominations not properly displayed and a few hours later, there were none. This happened, as far as I can tell, late on the 12th November or early on the 13th. I think it was due to a problem nomination which was promoted and archived at that time, and will likely not recur. I suspect, without good evidence, the Moses Bensinger nomination. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 13:36, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

It's been a problem in the past and (I repeat) there were other reasons for doing this. (Commenting mostly to keep the thread alive.) EEng 19:40, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

There is more than one theory about why this happened, and we don't know for sure. But at this point, it's not happening. This would certainly support the idea that exceeding Template limits Post expand include size was not the problem after all, or this would still be happening. We have recently seen how one background edit can affect DYK like the bottom card being removed from a house of cards. We don't know why this happened, and we don't know why it stopped. What I have proposed here about a separate page for approved nominations would be a large undertaking to implement and maintain, unless there was a bot involved. I think the above Supports are mostly because it would be easier for promoters if we had a separate page for approved nominations. I yield to the majority, however this turns out. But we still need to get it implemented if we go with it. — Maile (talk) 13:15, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

• @BlueMoonset, Cwmhiraeth, and EEng: I just noticed right above the special holding area, we are having this transclusion problem again. And it's getting worse. It magically clears up for a few days, and then clogs up again. One of the great mysteries of the universe. — Maile (talk) 22:27, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

• Maile, the number of active nominations (and therefore templates) has been steadily increasing, so it's natural that we'd run into the transclusion problem. It had been happening with 160 or more active nominations; now it's happening with 250/260 or more. That's quite a difference. If we had four or five prep/queue sets built at any one time, we wouldn't be having transclusion problems at the moment, though if the number of noms continues to build, we would regardless. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:41, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

• Let's not let the flame flicker and die. EEng 04:51, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

All hail Wugapodes!

I saw this and whipped together a script that managed to do the first part of the reorder: put any hooks that have been accepted onto a different page (and remove all the accepted/closed ones from the nom page). You can see the output on User:Wugapodes/Did you know/Approved hooks and User:Wugapodes/Did you know. If people like this and think this is something I should continue working on, I can make it so that the holding queues are on the other page like suggested. Let me know if this is helpful or not. Wugapodes 07:12, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

YES! YES! YES! Everyone, please review what Wugapodes has done so far. (Wugapodes, by "holding queues" do you mean the special holding areas for e.g. holidays?) Also, let's all remember that this was a package of ideas about changing the sequence of events in review, approval, and promotion, especially with regard to when nom pages get closed and so on. Let's make maximum use of this opportunity to implement as many good ideas for improving things while this sucker wonderful volunteer Wugapodes is willing to dig in and do the work. EEng 23:05, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I did mean the holding areas. Poor phrasing on my part. Be sure to let me know of any ways I can procrastinate writing help. Wugapodes 23:20, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

I like what you've done. Please pursue this — Maile (talk) 00:54, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

It looks good. One thing I noticed, at the moment the nomination José Antonio Raón y Gutiérrez for 23 October appears on your approved list. The template is splattered with ticks but the nomination has not in fact been approved. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:22, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Awesome work! But yes, we do have to decide how to deal with "challenged" nominations, where the approval is superseded by a later comment. Also, perhaps approved nominations should remain visible until they reach the main page, to encourage discussions to occur there and not on the main DYK talk page if they get pulled from the queue. Antony–22 (⁄_contribs) 01:18, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Wugapodes, great idea. For your algorithm: it has always been the case that the final icon rules; that's how Shubinator's DYKHousekeepingBot builds the List of DYK Hooks by Date table on the DYK queue and nomination pages. So if the final icon of the six allowed is one of the two ticks, then the nomination goes on the approved page; if red arrow, question mark, slash, or X, it goes on the regular nominations page. I queried Shubinator a couple of days ago about updating his bot to combine the contents of the current noms page and a new Approved noms page, and he hopes to have something ready to test by the end of the week. We'd need to decide on a name/location for the approved page: I would suggest an /Approved page directly below the current nominations page (Template talk:Did you know/Approved). I don't believe we want to use the word "hooks" in the page name because each entry is an approved nomination, not an approved hook. Finally, because Special occasion hooks are supposed to be approved, they should be kept on the Approved page but in their own section where the new moving bot should probably not be allowed to make modifications. We may want a stub of a Special occasions section on the regular nominations page, also where new the bot should not go, with much the explanation that is there now, along with a link to the approved special occasion nominations. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:08, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Let me suggest the following:

• Once the green tick appears, move the nom to the Approved page.
• If the green tick is later overridden, don't move it back off the Approved page -- too confusing and doesn't happen so much that it matters. Thus the Approved page is really the "got approved at some point even if maybe it's not currently approved". This way more eyes get on a "troubled" nom, and that's a good thing.
• I thought about having a delay of X hours, after the green tick appears, before moving the nom to the Approved page, to give a little time in case the original tick is going to be overridden, but again I don't think it's worth the complexity (and sometimes we're trying to rush something through the process, so we don't want a delay).

Other points:

• Keep the nom page open until the hook is swapped off the main page. In fact, all the ancillary stuff that currently happens as the hook set is swapped onto the main page (closing nom page, handing out credits to user talk pages) can be delayed together to the swap-off.
• I'd like to make a plea for not importing, to the Approved page, the date structure of the main nominations page. Please, just add newly-ticked noms to the end of the page, so that those doing QA can simply watch for new stuff at the end. Please, please. This obsession with maintaining some kind of priority structure based on "date of creation or date expansion began" is completely stupid. (Having special-occasion holding areas is fine, and of course prepbuilders are free to jump around the Approved page in selecting hooks.)

EEng 04:20, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset and Antony-22: My interpretation of the proposal was like EEng's, even noms approved but later challenged would be on the approved page, and I think that's a good thing per EEng. Though if we'd like to discuss which is better, It's an easy change. @EEng: I'm not sure what you mean with your first other point, are you proposing a change to the way hooks get promoted to queues or is this something I can change in the script? I agree with your second point, and was how I wanted to set it up but I decided to not rock the boat too much. If others like that idea I would be glad to make that change. Wugapodes 04:58, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

The current procedure is that the prep builder selects a hook from a green-ticked nom page and adds it to a prep set; at the same time he/she closes the nom page (by changing some parameter in the enveloping template, and subst'ing it). Unfortunately, this means that if there's later trouble with the hook, there natural venue for discussing it (the nom page) is no longer available -- this is the main reason you see so much "pull" discussion at Talk:DYK. Also, in the current procedure, as the bot swaps a Queue of hooks onto the main page, that's the moment that the bot goes to the talk pages of the various involved editors for each article, to post congratulations.

My idea is this: when a nom is selected to donate a hook to a prep set, the nom is no longer closed; instead the prep builder simply posts a comment at the bottom of the nom, "To Prep 4 (without image)" or whatever. After the prep set becomes a queue set, and then is eventually swapped onto the main page, no credits are given as they are now. Instead, 24 hours (or whatever) later, as the hook set is swapped off the main page, at that time the bot passes out credits to editors (as it does now, just 24 hours later than it used to), plus (a new job for the bot) the nom page is finally closed. This way, the nom page remains open "from cradle to grave" for discussion of problems, no matter how late they arise. Also (hate to say it) if the hook is modified during its main page appearance, the credits that appear in various places will quote the final hook as of the moment it's swapped out, not the original (presumably inferior) hook that was swapped in at the beginning of the 24 hours. EEng 05:15, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

EEng, can I suggest that we take this in stages? There's an immediate issue: the nominations page is too big. There's going to need to be a lot of coordination between the new Wugapodes bot and the Shubinator bots. DYKHousekeepingBot is going to need to keep track of how many nominations there are between the pages, and be able to count both kinds (approved and not approved) on both pages. It's also going to have to figure out which nominations out there aren't yet transcluded, which involves checking both pages. Adding the rest into the initial separation stage is going to cause all kinds of delays in the separation. Let's concentrate on getting the pages separated before redesigning the whole process.

As for keeping the nominations open after promotion, I think this is going to cause more problems than it solves. Assuming we do keep the nominations open until they've been promoted to the main page and left it—remind me how we make sure that an open nomination isn't in one of the preps or queues or on the main page so it doesn't get promoted multiple times?—DYKUpdateBot (which puts the notifications on article and user talk pages) will have to do the close. The notification of promotion is now less friendly: instead of being told that the article you nominated is now on the main page and you can go see it there, you get notified after it has left the main page, so you probably missed it. I think you're being optimistic about the number of people who will see formerly approved hooks on the approved page; reviewers generally won't go there because the hooks are supposed to be approved. Special occasion hooks that run into trouble rarely find reviewers after the fixes have been made because they're in an area where only approved hooks should be; I think we'll be looking at the same thing here. Finally, the set builders select from both green- and gray-ticked nominations. It's the tick that counts, not so much its color. (With the gray AGF ticks, more care should be taken.) BlueMoonset (talk) 05:51, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, for "green tick" I should have said "green or gray".
• I don't care too much when the credits are handed out -- do them during swap-in if you want -- but I feel strongly about keeping the nom page open until the final swap-out. Right now Talk:DYK is far too cluttered with discussions that should be going on back on the nom page, where all the relevant background already is. : I do see the value of having involved editors notified at the moment of swap-in to the main page, since they can monitor for vandalism etc. Of course, that assumes they log in and find the notice, but we can but try.
• I'm not being optimistic about the # of people will be reviewing the Approved page, because I think there will be few such people -- people like TRM and Fram, our resident eagle-eyes (with eagle beaks and claws, of course). Right now serious post-tick QA doesn't start until the hook is in a prep set, by which time it's already a hassle to pull it back; this new Approved page, in addition to making prep-building easier and solving (we hope) the technical transclusion-limit problem, provides the perfect place for that final QA to take place. I think we'll find that most of the attention now directed at Talk:DYK (which should really be a place for policy and process discussions, not individual hooks) will switch to the Approved page. Obviously for any of this to work the nom needs to stay open until final swap-out.

EEng 06:14, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

• @BlueMoonset: EEng suggested writing a comment, but I think a template like they use for categories at AFD might be useful. It could keep track of the whole history, including who promoted it to prep and who removed it from a queue and when. Something like:

Wugapodes promoted this to prep 3 ~~~~

So it's obvious but not intrusive. I think the suggestion is a good one because I agree that discussions of a nom, even after being promoted, should take place there just so the history is easier to see. Wugapodes 06:54, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

(All hail!, indeed!) @Yoninah and Cwmhiraeth: The two of you do the major lifting in promoting to prep, so your input here would be good feedback. — Maile (talk) 13:55, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

When hooks are reviewed they are often clunky, ungrammatical or otherwise not ideal. As a promoter, I consider the wording of the hook and if I think only trivial alterations are needed, I will move it to prep verbatim, and make alterations when it is in the prep set. Afterwards, others may also think it needs rephrasing, so what appears on the main page may be far removed from that on the template. I think it would be useful for this history to be available from the nomination template. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 14:27, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

make alterations when it is in the prep set -- We've all done this, and we've all gotten in hot water at one time or another for it; it's the wrong place to be doing that. I submit that if you think a hook on the Approved page needs tinkering with, you should post something to the nom like, "Isn't there a grammar problem with ALT1? I think this ALT1a corrects it...", then propose your ALT1a and move on to find a hook elsewhere, giving time for those watching the nom page to evaluate your suggestion. In other words, either take the hook as approved, or suggest a change, but don't edit it on the fly or in prep -- the people who know the article, the topic, and the nom's history best aren't watching there. Because this is all happening under in the "Approved page fishbowl", our sharpest eyes will now be on these final adjustments. EEng 16:14, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

It would be nice to be distinguish the noms on the approved page by their status: approved, challenged, in prep, in queue, on Main Page. This could be either by having separate sections for each, or having an index or some other visual difference between them. Antony–22 (⁄_contribs) 16:45, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Whether a nom is approved-unchallenged or approved-challenged or gone-to-prep will be apparent by the ticks and comments at the end of the nom. (Perhaps we could have a "gone to prep" tick, but again I emphasize that it should be specified exactly which hook went, w/ or w/o image, which prep set, who moved it, etc.) ("Gone-to-prep" includes three sub-stages, really: in Prep, moved to Q, on main page; and swapped-off-off-main page closes the nom and removes it from Approved.) Weparate sections would make it a little easier on prep-builders, but at the cost of a lot of complexity, and we can always add that later if experience suggests it would be worth it. EEng 17:13, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

• Question @BlueMoonset, EEng, Wugapodes, Cwmhiraeth, and Antony-22: Depending ... if the hooks are left on the new "approved" page after promotion, then I think we need to do a little rewriting on the how-to of promoting to prep, etc. Specifically this part:

In the DYK nomination template

1) Replace the line {{DYKsubpage with {{subst:DYKsubpage

2) Replace |passed= with |passed=yes

3) Check in Preview mode - if it was done correctly, everything will be against a pale blue background. There should be no stray characters (like }} ) at the top or bottom.

4) Edit summary should indicate which prep area you are moving the hook to.

5) Save

So, will a bot actually close out the template once a hook has retired successfully from its main page appearance? — Maile (talk) 23:06, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're saying. My proposal is that the promoter do step (4) when taking a hook to put in prep. (As I said before, maybe we'll invent a new tick/template for "gone to prep".) Then, as the hook comes off the main page, the bot does the other stuff. EEng 23:12, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Step 1 and 2 right now actually close out the nomination template, and that's done manually by the promoter. So, you can't have a step 4 without 1, 2, 3. But...yes...that was the question. The template will stay open until the hook has had a successful run on the main page. Then a bot closes the template. Yes? — Maile (talk) 23:21, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Um, ok... I guess. I still don't see what the confusion was, but I think we're somehow saying the same thing. EEng 23:56, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Maile, at the point that this goes live, we're going to have to have already prepared numerous revisions to the various instructions, not merely to that one section, assuming all these changes are made to the process. We'll probably also want to put warnings on the Prep pages that there are changes and promoters should familiarize themselves with these before building sets. You never know when someone who's been away for a few months will come back and use the process they know, unaware of the changes since they left. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:57, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

I guess that was my main concern, that promoters wouldn't know the new routine. And I agree that the new process should be posted in numerous places. Even if promoters are currently active, and checking this talk page ... if they haven't participated in this wall of text on how it will be changed, they might be completely unaware. — Maile (talk) 01:18, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

You leave for a couple hours and suddenly there's a bunch of new stuff.

• @EEng: I'm not too concerned about edits that happen in prep. Like the guide says, we can't stop and ask the nom about every change, plus it's CC licensed so might as well take advantage of that. If it's a big change, send it back (or don't promote), but for small grammatical errors and rewordings that don't change the meaning, I think the way it's done is fine.
• @Antony-22: I actually like that idea. I think having, minimally, an "approved", "promoted", and "pulled" section would be useful for promoters and reviewers. I'll think about how to add something like that in.
• @Maile66 and BlueMoonset: I'm thinking about how to actually implement a lot of this and I think a lot of changes can be done on the back end of templates and bots to make procedure changes minimal. Essentially all that happens when the DYKsubpage template is subst'd is that it includes the archival template. If we just edit that template to not do that any more, we can keep it open but still keep the actual procedure similar.

If you need me, I'll be in template space trying to whip up some examples/proposals. Wugapodes 03:07, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

You know, actually, maybe the changes shouldn't be minimal? Perhaps this is a good time to actually streamline the process, simplify, and make it easier for editors. Wugapodes 03:20, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not too concerned about edits that happen in prep -- Unfortunately experience shows that judgment, by persons not previously involved in a particular nom, about what constitutes a big change vs. a small rewording has been (to put it charitably) unreliable. It makes little sense for a detailed review and discussion process to be followed by a silent tinkering visible only in the edit history of the Prep template, made by someone who's been looking at the nom and the article for 90 seconds. And yes, we can ask the nominator and reviewer about every little change (in the sense of posting a suggested change to the nom change and waiting for comment) -- part of the reason it's healthy to have, to the extent possible at any given time, a large pool of approved hooks awaiting promotion is exactly so there's no hurry to promote any given hook, and thus comment can be invited on even apparently minor changes. This is the main page, after all, and there's many a slip twixt the cup and the lip. The guide says what it says currently because the current process forced us to make many such on-the-fly changes, and we were just closing our eyes and hoping for the best. One salutary outcome of the current effort should be to put an end to that by keeping the nominator and reviewer in the loop until the very end. EEng 04:03, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

• @EEng: Right now it takes some searching to figure out which puck is the most recent one; it's a minor annoyance right now when I'm scanning through the noms to find a hook to review. Even having a prominent banner at the top of each nom would work, if people don't want them divided into sections, though if a bot's controlling the page sections wouldn't be hard to maintain. Antony–22 (⁄_contribs) 03:28, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, if we rechristen the |passed= parameter as |status=, then it could take on values like some_hook_approved, hook_to_prep, appeared (i.e. has finished its main-page appearance, though maybe this is just closed), and these could manifest as the banners you're envisioning. Back on the giant concatenated nominations page, it could be the change to some_hook_approved that signals the bot to move the nom to the Approved page, instead of the mysterious scan-for-bottom-tick system used now. (We can still have the ticks, for humans.)

I really think having a bunch of sections is gilding the lily. Just add newly approved noms at the end, and prep builders should look for hooks, in general, near the top. Plus the special-occasion hold areas, of course. EEng 04:03, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh, wait, I misread Antony's post as talking about promoting hooks, when he was actually talking about finding noms to review. Since the reviewed noms (|status=some_hook_approved) will move to the Approved page, what is now the Nominations page will have only noms that haven't been approved yet, so finding a "virgin" should be easy. EEng 04:20, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

I was in fact talking about the new approved hooks page, but I was making an analogy with finding a hook to review. Just like people scan the noms page right now to find one to review, people may also want to scan the approved hooks to find one to promote or double-check, so it's important to be able to tell its status at a glance. Either displaying a prominent banner or having the bot keep them in separate sections would work for this. Antony–22 (⁄_contribs) 06:14, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

New template

For those interested in the idea I floated about an afd-like template, I made one that handles promotion and pulling. You'll want to see {{DYK moved}}:

{{subst:DYK moved|alt=1|toPrep=3}}

ALT 1 promoted to prep 3 – Wugapodes 04:51, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

{{subst:DYK moved|fromPrep=3}}

the nomination was pulled from prep 3 – Wugapodes 04:51, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

It has pretty intuative syntax (looking only add human-readable parts, "DYK moved alt 1 toPrep 3" and "DYK moved fromPrep 3"), it pulls left so it stands out and starts a new conversational block, it produces a standard output that is easy for bots to look for and parse. It could also be incorporated into the current {{DYKsubpage}} template in addition to the "status" parameter EEng mentioned above to automate the process perhaps. That will be my next goal. Wugapodes 04:51, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Please pace yourself. We need you for the long haul. The benefits of all this could be far-reaching. EEng 04:57, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Don't worry, it's all been rather simple. Believe it or not it's a nice break from my other work...not sure what that says about me. I tend to follow an iterative design model: prototype, seek feedback, and then scrap or adjust. I think it's easier for people to discuss changes when there's something to work off of which is more what I'm trying to provide than finished products, perhaps that wasn't clear. Wugapodes 05:31, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

@Wugapodes: Some comments/questions

(1) The blanks would be filled out by humans, for the bot to sense and do its thing. Right?

(2) If "alt=" is left blank, does it assume it's the non-alt hook?

— Maile (talk) 17:43, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

I think it would be better if the value was always explicit i.e. use 0 for "ALT0" i.e. the original hook. EEng 18:20, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

(1) That was my thought, yes. If you look at {{DYKsubpage/sandbox}} and Template:DYKsubpage/testcases you can see a mock-up of how it would work. Instead of subst'ing the dyksubpage template like previously, the promoter would fill in alt= and prep= which would automagically add this comment line. When it leaves the mainpage, a bot would subst the template closing it.

(2) For promotions it assumes alt 0, though that can also be explicit or treated as an error to leave it blank, for pulled hooks it just says what prep it was pulled from (if this gains traction, we'd want to add pulled from queue and mainpage also) but the specific hook that was pulled can be specified as well. Wugapodes 21:51, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree with User:BlueMoonset that we should take this in stages. As I've said previously, modifying DYKUpdateBot to close out nominations when taking sets off the Main Page isn't on the table right now. Let's focus on addressing the immediate issue of the nominations page, and then we'll have plenty of time to fine-tune other parts of the process. Shubinator (talk) 19:25, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

But it is on the table. We're discussing it now. Do you have any other reasons for not discussing it other than that you say we're not discussing it? EEng 22:02, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

EEng, what is being discussed here is going to require extensive modifications to DYKUpdateBot. Shubinator, the bot owner, has effectively said that this isn't something he can accomplish quickly: it's going to require discussion, specifications, and time to write and test, not to mention the necessity of getting the existing bot and Wugapode's proposed new bot not to get in each other's way. Right now, we have an immediate problem that needs solving: the nominations page is too big and dozens of nominations are not being transcluded, making it extremely difficult for people to work on them. To separate them, another of Shubinator's bots, DYKHousekeepingBot, needs to be modified to deal with two separate pages rather than one: a new Approvals page on top of the current Nominations page. Once that's done, we can safely separate the pages, the transclusion problem goes away, and the design of the new process can take center stage. It's a matter of priorities and time available to work them. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:13, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't care if the implementation is done in phases, but the design (rough, at least) should all be up front, especially if, as you say, it will require changes here there and everywhere, to avoid re-redoing stuff over and over. EEng 04:33, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

New page setup

"Conscience does make cowards of us all"

The native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought;
And enterprises of great pitch and moment,
With this regard, their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.
– Hamlet III.1

Can the poetry, you bootless dizzy-eyed fustilarian! EEng 19:03, 24 December 2016 (UTC) Click here to refresh the Shakespearean Insult Generator

@Shubinator, BlueMoonset, EEng, Maile66, and Antony-22: It seems like we've all had wonderfully productive discussion, but what I think we need next is to decide what we are actually going to do and when. I think we all agree the first thing that needs to happen to get the nominations back in order is splitting the pages. I can do that literally whenever. What seems to be the biggest holds on actually doing it are (in order of my perceived importance):

• How such a change to the nomination page would affect with Shubinator's bots
• How a bot moving noms from one page to the other would interact with Shubinator's
• How the approved hooks page would look/function
• What changes to the DYK process would need to be made to document these changes

Given this, I have a few questions. The first is for Shubinator: what do you need from me to most efficiently modify the DYK bots so that they can work with the most minimal change of splitting the pages? The rest are general things to discuss, in order of imminent necessity:

1. How should the approved hook page be organized: like in the example (retain date sections), like EEng suggests (just add them to the bottom as we find them), like Antony-22 suggests (approved section, contested section, pulled section), or some other idea?
2. Are the more superfluous suggestions made so far worth discussion after the immediate problem is solved?
3. If so, how and where should that discussion take place? Like we have been already in this section, in a new section on this talk page, on a subpage to craft a proposal RFC, or some other option?

Hopefully we can get the immediate problem solved asap, while also improving the project. The discussion has been great so far, and I hope for more, but let's not "lose the name of action". Wugapodes 01:06, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Wugapodes

• In some ways, I wouldn't mind if this went to a separate page RFC. But what usually happens then, is out-of-sight-out-of-mind, and participation drops. On the other hand, this particular thread has been open since November 1, and it's down to the few of us to figure out the mechanics.
• I think it is probably visually essential to retain the date sections, so that we can focus on getting the older nominations promoted. Otherwise, I think older nominations would fall through the cracks. IMO, when BlueMoonset started the regular updated sections on older nominations needing DYK reviewers, it was an improvement in bringing eyes to nominations that had been forgotten. — Maile (talk) 01:32, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

• Wugapodes, I didn't see that there would be any significant changes to the Nominations page (Template talk:Did you know) itself insofar as the existing bots were concerned. There would be fewer hooks transcluded there with a bunch having been moved to another page, but varying numbers of transclusions are normal. (I suppose it might depend on whether the page changes while Shubinator's bot is reading it, but wouldn't that cause a collision error now if it could have happened?) There will inevitably be some textual changes to the instructions when the page splits, and then as the other proposed changes come on line, but it seems to me that the documentation modifications will take far less time than the design, specifications, coding, and testing. Please see below about the page split. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:46, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

I had posted to Shubinator's talk page a while ago, while this conversation had been moribund for a while, asking what he would need in order to revise DYKHousekeepingBot to check through two pages, of nominations and of approved nominations, and still be able to build the List of DYK Hooks by Date table that appears on the Queues and Nominations pages and lets us know how many hooks are out there and how many of them are approved. Losing this functionality (and knowledge of how many are approved) by separating the pages—the bot wouldn't see any on the Approved page—seemed to me to be a very bad idea. Per our discussion there, I've just created the bones of an Approved page, and seeded it with four hooks from December 6 plus the Special occasion hooks for next year.

My assumption was initially that the Approved section would have subsections by dates, but when I created a page today for Shubinator to test with—Template talk:Did you know/Approved (which I figured we could then populate for real once the bot was working)—I noted that the discussion seemed to be veering away from dates, so it might be best to just combined everything on the Approved page into one line on the List of DYK Hooks page. (I didn't populate any dates, just the main section as a whole.) Since Maile seems now to be heading back toward dates, maybe Shubinator should allow for date and non-date headers in the bot code revision, combining the dates from both pages, and adding lines for each additional category on the Approved page (but only one line for the entire Special occasions section). BlueMoonset (talk) 02:46, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

I noted that the discussion seemed to be veering away from dates to continue quoting Hamlet, "ay, there's the rub". I honestly have no feelings about how the approved page should be set up as all (except Antony-22's) would be trivial to implement (the sections-by-status would require some changes to the process to be viable, so perhaps we should stick a pin in that one). So trivial, in fact, I'll program it to do both and when we come to a decision on that, have it output the one we agree on. I'll get to work on that, incorporate the structure you have at Template talk:Did you know/Approved already, and should have something ready soon. Thanks for your response, it really helped clear things up. Wugapodes 04:23, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

So, perhaps a stupid question, but how will the special holding areas work? Will they be nominated on the nom page and then moved to a section on approved when approved? If so, is there some consistent formatting that the bot can look for to know to move it to a holding queue? If not, then this may be a minor snag. Two solutions could be to have humans do it (for now or forever), or to modify the way dates are requested to make it bot-readable. Wugapodes 04:53, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

After the bot moves it to the normal part of the Approved page, someone can then pick it up manually and move to the right special holding area; I really don't like locking too much structure into bot code. Since we're adding all the bells and whistles it might be nice to have a template parm |special_occassion= |special_occassion_requested=; it needn't be more than yes/no, and if it's yes that raises one of those famous colored banners to warn everyone it's not on the normal assembly line. EEng 06:26, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Special occasion should be a manual move: for one thing, it isn't an automatic grant. A human reviewer needs to take a look at it, and if they agree that this is indeed sufficiently special, and meets the criteria (it shouldn't be more than six weeks in the future, for example), then they can move it by hand to the Special occasion section and set up a new date section there if necessary. I would imagine that some of the time the reviewer will approve and move even before the bot takes action. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:58, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

The date separations is a valueless complication for no purpose. If newly-approved stuff is added at the bottom, and prep builders work from the top, it will tend to be FIFO, which is good enough. EEng 04:30, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Re dates, after having just read BlueMoonset post beneath mine, it occurred to me that we need Shubinaor's feedback on what might be the best avenue to take on that. I'll go with the majority opinion on this, as long as it is workable for Shubinator. — Maile (talk) 12:15, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

DYKHousekeepingBot can go either way on date sections. Right now it supports date sections, if we remove them the bot will need minor tweaking, definitely doable. Independent of the bots, when I was building DYK sets, the date sections were useful in reducing edit conflicts. Shubinator (talk) 23:43, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Unless I'm misunderstanding something only the bot will be editing the Accepted page anyway (adding noms that have just transitioned to some_hook_approved, and removing them at the end of their life) -- the exception being the rare time a hook is moved from the main Approved list to a special-occasion area. So I don't understand the edit-conflict argument.

One of the things I find really annoying about the date sections we now have on the giant nominations page is that new noms are popping up here and there all the time within the current 7-day window, so there's nowhere to watch to just see new noms as they arrive. If the date sections are just "date moved to Approved page" that's fine, but please don't arrange them by date nominated, because that means new stuff will always be appearing all over the Approved page, and those doing QA will have no way to find new additions systematically. EEng 02:59, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

I apologise in advance if this is a really bad idea, but what about a page that was a sortable table with a link to the nomination page, status, nomination date, etc. No transclusions, the bot could just add to the list, update entries, and remove items when they come off the main page. Length would be a non-issue. Wouldn't that help us a lot with working through the nominations in varying stages? An editor could sort by status if looking for pulled / needing review, or by date, or even by nominator / approver / promoter, if that was somehow useful. Include if there is an approved image, so we could look for older approved hooks with images, etc. EdChem (talk) 08:59, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

If, as I think you're suggesting, this would be an auxiliary structure that summarizes and indexes the content of the other page(s), then that really is something we can add later without impact on the design we're developing. EEng 09:07, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

EdChem I'm not sure if you're suggesting the table as the separate page we're talking about, or converting the nominations page to wiki links instead of transclusions. For one thing, wiki links also add to a page's size and bog it down. But the big issue is the visuals. Promoters should be able to scroll a page to eyeball potential hooks to complete a set. If we make it a system where they have to click on each link to see what it is, we discourage the incentive to promote hooks. Did I misunderstand what you are suggesting? — Maile (talk) 12:41, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm still concerned that when someone's scanning down the Approved page looking for a hook to promote, it's more difficult if the already-promoted hooks are mixed in. I agree that they should stay in date order within the sections, just without subsection headings. I know having the bot juggle noms between sections is a bit more work, but it also makes things a bit easier for promoters down the line. Antony–22 (⁄_contribs) 18:48, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

The colored banners you proposed should make things easy enough. Maintaining the structure you're proposing will require constant bot intervention. It's technical rococo. Simple is better. EEng 19:12, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

@EEng and Maile66: I didn't really have a concrete proposal, just an idea that was a thought-bubble. On reflection:

1. I would keep the nom page with the transclusions for the nominations yet to have an icon added (ticked, needs work, no, etc.).
2. I was originally thinking of the issue of which order is best, which a sortable table would allow each editor to tailor to their own needs. However, Maile's point on transclusions for the in progress / pulled / etc page is well made, so I guess what I am suggesting would be an adjunct.
3. My table page suggestion could summarise both pages and allow anyone to see every current nomnination in one place, by oldest, or status, or whatever else in the table. Statuses could be something like "nomination" (for on the current page), "new reviewer needed", "pulled", "GTG", "GTG (AGF)", "Waiting for action" (for when the nominator has been asked with a ? or / icon, or has acted and waiting for further input from the reviewer), "Promoted" or "In prep / queue". Having a table with no transclusions but only links means we don't run into the issue we presently have with too many templates.
4. Obviously any decision is contingent on consensus on the way forward, refinements / alterations / rejections / etc of suggestions made, and agreement from the bot operators on practicality and reasonableness, etc.

EdChem (talk) 22:10, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

@EdChem: have you seen Misplaced Pages:Good article nominations/Report? It seems rather analogous to what you're suggesting in that it augments the GA process by summarizing the nominations and directing attention to the older ones in each category (and overall). Wugapodes 23:22, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Wugapodes, I see that is one option. With nominations spread across two or more pages, a single page summary would (I think) be useful, and it needs to leave out the transclusions to be viable. I'm just throwing in an idea that seemed to me to address the concern over ordering and to be useful more generally, without advocating any single approach as the way forward. EdChem (talk) 02:53, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Wugapodes, DYKUpdateBot doesn't read the nominations page or the prep areas, so we're good on that front. DYKHousekeepingBot will need to be modified to 1) reflect the noms on the Approved page in the table generated at Misplaced Pages:Did you know/DYK hook count, and 2) not count nominations transcluded on the Approved page as orphaned nominations. DYKHousekeepingBot only reads the noms pages, so it shouldn't conflict with any nomination shuffling. #2 is a one-line change. As BlueMoonset mentioned, we've been iterating on #1, take a look at the modified bot's output here: User:Shubinator/Sandbox/DYK hook count. Feel free to provide feedback! Shubinator (talk) 23:52, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

DYKMoverBot Prototype

Happy holidays everyone, I have completed a prototype of the nomination mover script. It is currently set up to out put two styles, with date sections and without date sections. I have a few more things to work out before I can submit a BRFA, but the formatting for each page is set enough for feedback. Take a look, decide which you like best, make that preference known to me somehow. A possible option is to quasi-A/B test it. Use one for a few days, use the other for a few days and determine which was best for your workflow. Wugapodes 02:51, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

I have filed a Bot Request for Approval. Feel free to comment there. Wugapodes 23:20, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Extremely disappointed

This conversation has run its course, per WP:NOTAFORUM at the very least. Bencherlite 23:46, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

I found out today that that the opportunity presented by Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Neopalpa_donaldtrumpi did not lead to the hook Did you know ... that donaldtrumpi has a scaly yellowish head and small genitalia? I am extremely disappointed in all of you. EEng 02:06, 25 January 2017 (UTC) Well ... if they'd gone with that, at least the error report wouldn't have been so, er, um, well... whatever it was. — Maile (talk) 02:17, 25 January 2017 (UTC) EEng Believe me, I was tempted... Schwede66 04:14, 25 January 2017 (UTC) No excuses. Greatness was within our reach, and you fumbled it. All of you. I weep. EEng 04:20, 25 January 2017 (UTC) Not clever enough to accuse me of splitting hairs, eh, Maile. --Dyspeptic skeptic (talk) 10:50, 25 January 2017 (UTC) Ah, ha ha. This bunch is a laugh a minute. — Maile (talk) 12:14, 25 January 2017 (UTC) But it did make enough to be recorded on the stats page, no doubt because of the reference to President Trump. Theres always another one that will come up and continue to make DYK great again. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 16:05, 25 January 2017 (UTC) Not as popular as catastrophes that may have caused little ice ages and pieces of Mars on Earth, although apparently Licancabur Lake is not mentioned on the statistics page. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:55, 25 January 2017 (UTC) I'll be very surprised if another opportunity arises to highlight what could be (hard to say -- there's been a lot of competition recently) the lowest moment in the history of American politics, if not all human politics throughout history, to wit a contender for the presidential nomination of one of the major American parties bragging about the size of his penis on stage. And of course the scaly yellowish head would have been a delicious bonus. EEng 16:25, 25 January 2017 (UTC) I dunno. I have the feeling that DYK has recently been presented with a gift that keeps on giving (at least for 4 years) with quirky hook possibilities, if not lead hooks. — Maile (talk) 17:01, 25 January 2017 (UTC) Note: I've again reverted one editor's attempt to close this discussion. For those who are interested, his comments may be seen here . EEng 20:22, 25 January 2017 (UTC) Please, continue! Always fun to see people belittling a living person for personal amusement. Glad BLP has a humor and disagree with politics exception! Ravensfire (talk) 21:10, 25 January 2017 (UTC) We will build a wall to shield us from him, and we're going to make OTD pay for it! :) The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 21:14, 25 January 2017 (UTC) Those who know me know that I'm an equal-opportunity belittler of fools and hypocrites in high places. The fact that Trump and his sycophants provide such plentiful raw material is something you'll need to take up with them‍—‌in fact, the hope of prompting assholes to straighten up and fly right is one of the key reasons political humor is important. EEng 21:25, 25 January 2017 (UTC) We're still having a problem with one editor repeatedly trying to close this discussion. Also, perhaps one of the admins participating (Schwede66, Ritchie333, Maile66, Jo-Jo_Eumerus) could have a talk with this person about his WP:TPO violation in removing others' posts i.e. Special:Diff/761963726. EEng 23:40, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

I want to thank administrator Bencherlite for thoughtfully collapsing. No, wait, that might have come out wrong. Collapsing transitive, not intransitive. Anyway, if there are any serious comments about the the extent to which politically charged hooks are appropriate, no doubt they're still welcome. EEng 00:09, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
P.S. Does anyone have any idea why this comment is coming out above the collapse box???

Now I've remembered to make the top/bottom templates match, it doesn't.... Bencherlite 00:13, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

That was a really neat trick. Here's a permalink because the day may come when we might want to drive a fellow editor completely crazy. EEng 00:52, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

• Now I do get it, that The Wikipedias is Serious Bizzness, but I'm a wee bit disappointed at the repeated attempts to shut the discussion down. In fact, I think that there is a perfectly valid issue about DYK to be discussed. Hooks are encouraged to be "hooky", but I wonder about the role of humor. At Template:Did you know nominations/John Hughes (neuroscientist), I offered three possible versions, and the first (with some slight further editing) was what was put on the main page. But a part of me was quietly rooting for ALT2. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:23, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Why quietly? It was completely appropriate and by far the best. As to humor, by now you're thoroughly familiar with one of my favorite quotations: "Great men of all nations and of all times have possessed a keen appreciation of the ridiculous, as wisdom and wit are closely allied." It's amazing the extent to which those who don't get it are so often certain that means there's nothing to get. Either that or they're so angry at being left out that they have to spoil it for others. EEng 00:52, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

The reason that I did not express a preference was that I wanted to do a sort of experiment, and see what would happen if I exerted no influence. (And I was entirely happy with the way it ended up.) And I'm asking here in order to get a sampling of what other editors think about it. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:57, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Looking at the John Hughes nomination, I see a mention that ALT2 is ok on sourcing, but nothing that indicates to the promoter either which ALT or ALTs are approved or which are the options in the case the choice is being left for the promoter. Best practice is (or should be) that the tick specifies one of these. EdChem (talk) 02:24, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

That's a good point. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:52, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

As the reviewer of the John Hughes DYK, let me say that I specifically exclude any problematic hooks (with explanation in my review, and by striking the offending hook), and will otherwise state the remaining hooks are OK. I leave it to the promoter to choose the best hook, and the nominator to place the favoured hook as the lead. (For the record, I preferred ALT2 as well.) Mindmatrix 03:52, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, that's a good point: I could have instead put ALT2 first. When I have reviewed, I've always stated my preferred hook as part of my review. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:06, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Main page hook seems to be incorrect (or meaningless at least)

• ... that Juan Carlos I of Spain approved the Long Military Service Cross in 2002, even though it was established in 1958?

Template:Did you know nominations/Long Military Service Cross (Spain) @Jionunez, Yoninah, and Cwmhiraeth:

I have not pulled or changed this one, but it seems to me to be a meaningless (or even wrong) hook. Looking at the source, I see that the medal was created by law in 1958, and changed by law multiple times. In 1994, by royal decree (as far as I can tell, all alws in Spain are a "royal decree", making the "Juan Carlos I approved" meaningless as this is just a ceremonial approval of the law passed by Parliament), it was more or less abolished because it was integrated in the Royal and Military Order of Saint Hermenegild. They soon realised that this left one group of military personnel in the cold, and so in 2002 the law was again changed so that those military people who were not eligible for the Hermenegild could still get an award for staying with the army for a long time.

This means that the order was established (by law) in 1958, and changed (with royal approval) on multiple occasions, including Royal Decree 38 of 1986. The 2002 date was just the latest(?) in a series of changes to the specific rules for the order, a standard change as happens to most orders over the lifetime of them.

To me at least the hook gives the impression that the order was not lawful or official between 1958 and 2002 (false), and that Juan Carlos himself intervened in 2002 to make it official (false, as it was already official and the role of Juan Carlos I was ceremonial, not substantial).

I suggest removal of the hook, but wanted to give people a short while to comment first to see if I missed something here. Fram (talk) 08:26, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Based on Fram's description, perhaps:

• ... that Juan Carlos I of Spain established the Long Military Service Cross in 1958, and re-established it in 2002?
• ... that Spain's Long Military Service Cross was established in 1958, and re-established in 2002?

Do these seem accurate and comprehensible? EdChem (talk) 08:54, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

• The first one definitely not, as Juan Carlos wasn't king in 1958 :-D The second one? It is not clear that the order was ever de-established, it just was, if I understand things correctly, impossible for anyone to receive it between 1994 and 2002. Fram (talk) 09:06, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

I have now removed it from the main page. Fram (talk) 09:40, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Fram, you are certainly correct about my first suggestion, I forgot to check when Carlos became King! Given the ambiguity in the 1958-2002 period, fixing while on the main page became impractical. It's a pity this wasn't raised at the nomination or in the preps / queues, perhaps it's an example of the potential issues with AGF ticks on foreign-language sources. I wonder if we should ask that attempts be made to contact a native speaker in such cases? We could create a list of editors willing to look at sources in languages other than English, who can assist on just the source to assist reviewers. I know that my last foreign-language supported hook benefited very much from a reviewer (and input I requested from another editor) who spoke the relevant language. EdChem (talk) 23:15, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Queue 2

Isn't "Blessed Virgin Mary" a little heavy-handed for a piped link? Several other options were offered in Template:Did you know nominations/Oliveto Citra. Yoninah (talk) 14:35, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

The article is about an apparition that supposedly appeared to the villagers who would have been Catholics. "Blessed Virgin Mary" is used extensively by the Catholic Church, the "Blessed" being an honorific showing respect. If someone wants to change it in the hook I will not object. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 20:12, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Removed "Blessed". Harrias 21:41, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

LifeRing Secular Recovery

Hi, I notice this is queued for just after midnight UTC, but the hook has been changed from "...that LifeRing Secular Recovery has online as well as face-to-face meetings and email support groups, for people trying to beat alcohol and drug addiction without religion?" and now has no mention of the online and email focus of LifeRing. Can this hook be reinstated as it's kind of a very important aspect of the page, and the hook as it stands is not as informative. I understand the constraints of the physical space but maybe it could go in another day? Many thanks Mramoeba (talk) 15:12, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

To be honest, though it was Yoninah that made the change, I fully agree with it. The hook was convoluted in that form, and was bordering on being too promotional in aspect too. Harrias 16:27, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Ok thanks, I guess you guys do far more of this than I do, I'm no good at writing hooks, I was just surprised as I thought that was what the review was for. Mramoeba (talk) 18:08, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

I am the reviewer of that nomination, and recall making sure that sources supported the different modalities, which I did find interesting. There were a number of areas which needed tweaking, and I appreciate that Mramoeba worked to address them; the article is very much main-page worthy, in my view. However, from a hookiness perspective, I agree with Harrias, Yoninah's alteration does make for a better hook – actually, I'm a little embarrassed that I confirmed the accuracy of the hook but didn't comment on the possibility of shortening it. The fact that would lead me to look at the article (and indeed, which led me to doing the review) was that they offer a secular alternative to AA, and that is more prominent in the shortened form. Mramoeba, DYKs are checked at four points: By the reviewer in discussion with the nominator and editors and anyone else who jumps in; by the promoter, who closes the nomination and places the hook into a prep set; by the admin who moves the set into a queue; and, by those who check preps and queues. In theory, most issues should be caught in the first (review) step, but the DYK project has ongoing issues with variations in quality and the last check by editors watching the preps / queues is catching and fixing quite a few issues too. Minor changes to hooks (such as happened here) are often done unilaterally, and it is wise for nominators / editors of the articles to watch the preps and queues for these, and to ask (as you did) if something happens that you find concerning. The change is no reflection on you (or on me), it's just an example where more people working together lead to better outcomes, and it's not the kind of change that points to an inadequacy in an earlier stage – unlike cases where a serious flaw in the article or hook is spotted. As for your hook writing, shorter is generally hookier, and I hope you get plenty of practice in writing hooks for future DYK submissions. :) Yoninah, thanks for watching the preps / queues and looking to improve hooks, your change here is definitely an improvement. :) EdChem (talk) 23:07, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

No worries, I'll try to keep it short in future. Thanks for all your help, people. Mramoeba (talk) 23:15, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Oldest nominations needing DYK reviewers

The previous list was archived a few hours ago, so here's a list of the 36 oldest nominations that need reviewing, which includes all those through December 28. Right now the nominations page shows 255, of which 76 have been approved, but that doesn't include the 52 nominations that can't transclude because we have too many transcluded templates to show them all, 18 of which have also been approved. Thanks to everyone who reviews these, especially the 18 that are over six weeks old, left over from the last list, and urgently need a reviewer's attention.

Over two months old:

• November 18: Template:Did you know nominations/Geological history of the Precordillera Terrane
• November 18: Template:Did you know nominations/3D Fold Evolution
• November 21: Template:Did you know nominations/Oudh Bequest

Over six weeks old:

• December 2: Template:Did you know nominations/Grand Matsu Temple
• December 5: Template:Did you know nominations/Han Zhuo
• December 5: Template:Did you know nominations/Bad Samaritans: The Myth of Free Trade and the Secret History of Capitalism
• December 7: Template:Did you know nominations/Further Continuing and Security Assistance Appropriations Act, 2017
• December 7: Template:Did you know nominations/Peter Janssens
• December 7: Template:Did you know nominations/Pasang Lhamu Sherpa Akita
• December 8: Template:Did you know nominations/Furra
• December 8: Template:Did you know nominations/D.Gray-man
• December 10: Template:Did you know nominations/Bahubali
• December 11: Template:Did you know nominations/Abu'l-A'war, Banu Sulaym (two articles)
• December 12: Template:Did you know nominations/Student Initiative Rahel
• December 13: Template:Did you know nominations/Corruption in Ecuador
• December 13: Template:Did you know nominations/Jeff Forshaw
• December 16: Template:Did you know nominations/Suhl card reader case
• December 16: Template:Did you know nominations/Guardians of the Dawn

Other old nominations:

• December 18: Template:Did you know nominations/Chinese Taipei Olympic Committee
• December 19: Template:Did you know nominations/Kucheipadar tribal movement
• December 20: Template:Did you know nominations/Ciomadul
• December 22: Template:Did you know nominations/Mazu Temple (Magong)
• December 23: Template:Did you know nominations/Monument to Women Memorial Garden
• December 23: Template:Did you know nominations/Goofus and Gallant
• December 24: Template:Did you know nominations/Ted Meines
• December 24: Template:Did you know nominations/Rhiannan Iffland
• December 24: Template:Did you know nominations/Liquidambar changii
• December 24: Template:Did you know nominations/Transfer function matrix
• December 25: Template:Did you know nominations/Ingeborg Weber-Kellermann
• December 25: Template:Did you know nominations/Annabelle (magazine)
• December 26: Template:Did you know nominations/Henry L. Reaves
• December 27: Template:Did you know nominations/White-throated honeyeater
• December 27: Template:Did you know nominations/Arung Palakka
• December 28: Template:Did you know nominations/Coromandel lacquer
• December 28: Template:Did you know nominations/Apparicine
• December 28: Template:Did you know nominations/Revolutionary Communist Party of India

Please remember to cross off entries as you finish reviewing them (unless you're asking for further review), even if the review was not an approval. Many thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 04:47, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

What's up with Sri Lankan Christmas tree?

Christmas Eve night is December 25? Claimed to be the world's tallest but Guinness still has a different tree? Same AP source used twice? I don't see a source that definitely says when it was lit? Ed  06:39, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Donald Trump can buy it and call it his "big woody". EEng 07:15, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

It's not uncommon for the Guinness Book of Records to take months to confirm records. I tidied the article slightly, removing mention of Dec 25; the sources back up that it was Christmas Eve. Harrias 08:31, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Harrias, for the on-topic and swift reply. Much appreciated. Ed  09:30, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Prep 6

@FallingGravity: The image caption reads like a rollover caption. Isn't there a name for this work? Yoninah (talk) 18:59, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

@Yoninah: The best I know of is "Risqué stereo-view of unidentified woman, c. 1900.". _Gravity 19:08, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I think we should go with that. I'll edit the caption. Yoninah (talk) 19:11, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Update times

Would it be feasible to restore the 00:00/12:00 (UTC) update schedule, ideally by retaining a set for an extra two hours, thirty-eight minutes? (I'm not intimately familiar with the bot's operation, so I don't know what this would entail from a technical standpoint.)

Certain maintenance tasks (such as image cropping/enhancement and column balancing) are easier when the main page updates are as synchronized as possible. Also, it's more intuitive for readers when DYK is updated along with TFA, OTD, TFP and TFL. —David Levy 01:05, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

David Levy I believe the bot automatically corrects to 00:00/12:00 (UTC), but it might take some time. It makes the 12 hour stint shorter by 15 or 30 minutes, until the update times go back to 00:00/12:00 (UTC). Joseph2302 (talk) 01:11, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

David Levy, the bot will autocorrect 15 minutes per promoted set to get back to midnight UTC, so it'll be five days and a bit before it realigns there, unless we miss another update because a queue isn't loaded soon enough. A manual update could be done by an admin, but the bot's been self-correcting for years, per its design. Will it be painful to wait that long? BlueMoonset (talk) 03:18, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Joseph2302 and BlueMoonset: I was unaware of the self-correction mechanism in place, which seems reasonable. Thanks very much for explaining it to me. —David Levy 03:45, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Just a reminder that the approved reserve (# in prep + # in Q + noms approved but not promoted to prep) has now dropped to 92 (from about 155 twenty days ago). According the protocol I have long promoted, when that # drops to 50 we should go back to one set (of 7 or 8) per day. At present rates that should happen about Feb. 12. EEng 02:27, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for noting this. In the context of main page maintenance, daily updates are optimal (though I understand why DYK sometimes requires greater frequency than that). —David Levy 03:46, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Featured lists

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In line with the existing eligibility criteria of GAs being eligible for DYK, I've just I propose adding the following line to DYK Eligibility criteria:

• "Lists designated as Featured lists within the past seven days, regardless of whether they were expanded, are also eligible."

Hope that's alright. Lourdes 11:20, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

That seems perfectly reasonable to to me but I expect it to receive a certain amount of backlash here. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:21, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

:) I hope not. Thanks. Lourdes 11:22, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• I've edited my initial statement and am looking forward for responses from fellow editors. Thank you. Lourdes 11:26, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• I'm not overtly against this, but I wonder whether there is any conflict with such a list being simultaneously eligible for DYK and TFL. They are very different things, and I don't think it is an issue though. Harrias 12:06, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose - Featured Lists and Featured Articles already have their own separate slots on the main page. If we are not including Featured Articles, why would we include Featured Lists? The only reason GA was included, is because GA did not otherwise have have its own slot on the main page. — Maile (talk) 12:47, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

  But recent death subjects can feature in ITN and DYK. So there's already a precedent for items to feature in two sections of the main page. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:50, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose Horses for courses. The point of being a featured list is eligibility for the featured list section of the main page. DYK doesn't tend to do list content; list entries are specifically excluded in tools like the DYK Check. Andrew D. (talk) 13:27, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• Andrew Davidson, lists are included in DYK noms. As per Misplaced Pages:Did you know#Eligibility criteria: "Lists: Proposed lists need 1,500+ characters of prose, aside from the listed items themselves." Lourdes 14:21, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
• Two factually incorrect statements in such quick time. (1) The point of being a featured list is eligibility for the featured list section of the main page not true. In fact, FLs have only featured relatively recently on the main page, initially just once a week as well. Twice a week now, but that's another matter. (2) DYK doesn't tend to do list content that's hogwash. If a list is improved to meet the arcane requirements of DYK, it's perfectly legitimate to see it running. As Lourdes says, it's even indoctrinated in the rules! The Rambling Man (talk) 16:09, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose The logic behind GAs being included was that this would be their only chance to hit the main page, since there was no way otherwise to appear on the main page. For Featured Lists, there is a spot on the main page for them, so they will have that chance. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:58, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

  One FL is featured twice a week. Do you know how many FLs there are? Right now the answer is 3,093. So if each one got its "chance", and no others would be promoted, we'd have enough of a backlog to service until 2046. Plus, considering the scarcity of featured lists being promoted or even nominated at DYK, what's the big issue? Is there some kind of protectorate in force to ban other types of quality, recently improved material? I knew the regulars would be here to oppose this, so I'm not surprised at all. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:44, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• Then spend the energy to increase the number of days that FLS appear on the main page, rather then shoehorning them into DKY. The number of days is not something DYK should be taking up the backlog of.--Kevmin § 18:54, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• Well funny you should say that as it was me that spear-headed the push for FL on the main page and then pushed for twice a week. So thanks for your encouragement!! As for The number of days is not something DYK should be taking up the backlog of., that's one of the bizarre things I've ever read on Misplaced Pages. You realise that only two or three FLs get promoted per week right? You know that this won't "take up the backlog of"? Perhaps a little research would help construct a more orderly and defensible position here. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:03, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• Its not the place of DKY to deal with the backlog of FL's that have not been featured on the mainpage. Your feigned lack of understanding of that point and accusation that the point is bizarre means nothing in this situation.--Kevmin § 19:18, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• I'm not even sure what DKY is, and there's no issue here with FL backlog, I was simply contextualising for those who have no idea about featured lists. I.e. that one or two or three get promoted every week. Your personal attack (... feigned lack of understanding ... is noted however. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:25, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose As noted there was no other way for GAs to appear on the MP. The rebuttal that FL's only appear twice a week is irrelevent, as they still have a dedicated slot, and most likely no statute of limitations. Its moot to constantly bring up the time.--Kevmin § 18:51, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

  Not at all. Your opposition is founded in ill-logic. But never mind. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:03, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

  Oh sorry, the time. Yes, it's five past seven. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:05, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• Its not founded on ill-logic. Its merely an opinion you dislike, and as such you feel that ridicule is the only option available to you, fully breaching WP:civil as custom. This is why no one cartes what you say, and why you have no ground to stand on with your position.--Kevmin § 19:18, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• It is. See below. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:25, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• Comment suggest this is closed, it's clear the DYK regulars have no appetite for new and interesting and decent quality lists that may be of interest to our readers, despite only two or three being promoted per week (i.e. nowhere near the massive tranche of mediocre insects, Indian politicians from the 1970s, Hawaii personalities, Swedish television presenters etc that get promoted every day). The project is determined to keep its borders closed, like Trump, and to prevent any new innovation from enriching the daily dull dose of so-called hooks. So sorry to Lourdes for trying to make this a better place only to be dismissed out of hand by the regulars. So much for encouraging new content from new editors to the project! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:11, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• Again, when seeing that you are not getting your way, you have posted more blatantly uncivil and attacks on the project. Why should we put up with your blatant disdain for anything that does not go how you feel it should?--Kevmin § 19:18, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• It's my opinion that this project is ring-fenced to protect its own, it summarily accepts mediocrity for main page inclusion, sometimes much worse, and that the users involved can't see the wood for the trees. That's not blatantly uncivil, that's not an attack, it's a statement. One that I believe in. If you don't like it, don't respond, do something else. If you actually believe that I've breached WP:CIVIL, take me to ANI right now, or else I'd suggest you stop claiming otherwise. Your continual reversion to such claims is actually becoming a little wearing, and we need to have it out. Find some proper indiscretions, take me to ANI, get me banned. Or else stop crying wolf every time I say something you don't like to hear. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:25, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
• Kevmin let's see it then. Either an ANI trip with all your strong evidence of "uncvil" (sic) behaviour or you stop pretending it's happening. We don't want false accusations left unresolved. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:41, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Uncivil behavior

At what point should the project continue to tolerate unrelenting breaching of WP:Civil? Every time the problems with TRM have been pointed out, discussion of the problem is closed and we are urged to move on. This only makes the project more and more toxic, as no one wants to be the focus of TRMs attacks. While TRM is constantly saying to take the problem to ANI, that will fail as there has been no attempts here to resolve the issue. It NEEDS to be addressed now, as it will not change if it is not, and the project will fail due to toxicity.--Kevmin § 20:29, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

I'd like the diffs please. And as we all know, this is way beyond a local solution, if there's a real problem with "uncivil" (sic) behaviour then we need to address it centrally, hence my request to take it to ANI, with all associated diffs regarding "uncivil" (sic) behaviour. Or is it just that you don't actually like me so you feel obliged to have a go at me if we ever disagree? I'm not sure. I've sparred with many here, and many of whom loathe my very existence yet tacitly accept that we're in it for the encyclopaedia, for better or for worse. You, on t'other hand, seem otherwise inclined. See you in court! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:03, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

@Kevmin: I would collect diffs and head to arbitration enforcement. There's a lower bar than incivility with TRM. Quoth the Arbcom: "The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) is prohibited from insulting and/or belittling other editors.

"If The Rambling Man finds himself tempted to engage in prohibited conduct, he is to disengage and either let the matter drop or refer it to another editor to resolve.

"If however, in the opinion of an uninvolved administrator, The Rambling Man does engage in prohibited conduct, he may be blocked for a duration consistent with the blocking policy. The first four blocks under this provision shall be arbitration enforcement actions and may only be reviewed or appealed at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. Should a fifth block prove necessary, the blocking administrator must notify the Arbitration Committee of the block via a Request for Clarification and Amendment so that the remedy may be reviewed." Ed  21:15, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

I agree, if there's a collection of diffs that show that, then please head straight to Arbcom and get me banned. Thanks to Ed for regurgitating the Arbcom ruling, which we're all aware of. In the meantime, I'm waiting for him to turn the text in the ITN section orange. By the way, by prohibited conduct, is that like, sniffing glue? Or a 4G inverted dive with a MIG 28? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:19, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Are you aware, though? You really seem to like to toe that belittling line. Ed  21:29, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

That was always the problem with Abrmoc's ruling. "Belittling" is purely subjective. I don't believe I've belittled anyone or anything, but you, as an admin, have the power, right now, to block me based on your own subjective view of that ruling. It's utter bullshit, but hey, such is life. You really seem keen to pull the trigger, always there to help other users know that I'm on that fine line, always there to remind me that "any moment now" I can be extinguished from Misplaced Pages's history, like it's a little holiday moment for you. I don't care really, if you want to destroy and expunge editors who actively improve Misplaced Pages, that's fine. If you want to keep editors who are under sanction, "under your gun" that's fine too, it maybe fulfils something in your life you have absent right now. But please, at least, be honest about it. If I told someone to fuck off, or that I hope they died soon, or that their article was shit, fine. But right now, you and your gun-slingers are clutching at thin straws to get me banned from Misplaced Pages. The truth be told, I usually make more positive contributions before breakfast every day than you do in a month. Is that belittling, or is that fact? I guess the block button will let me know. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:38, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

This is getting off topic, so I've followed up on your talk page. Others may wish to as well; it's a genuine plea to get the old TRM back. Ed  22:12, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Pioneer Cabin Tree

Pioneer Cabin Tree was featured on ITN a few weeks ago and is now on DYK. I thought ITN items are not eligible for DYK, or has the rule changed recently? -Zanhe (talk) 02:21, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Articles featured at ITN as bolded links are not eligible: articles featured as unbolded links, including in the RD section (which is where this was: link) are still eligible. There has not been any change that I am aware of. Vanamonde (talk) 07:23, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. -Zanhe (talk) 05:50, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Date relation again

Any chance to swap Cello Sonata No. 1 (Reger) out for FP (Poulenc) in, prep 1. Poulenc died on this day while Reger's work is just a little late for Reger Year 2016, and a few days more don't matter. The catalogue was just approved yesterday, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:13, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Don't look, for several reasons, - will wait. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:37, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

• People should not date their relations -- can lead to birth defects. EEng 17:15, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

8th hooks being added after Queue is loaded for the main page

David Levy you have twice added an 8th hook to sets, on Template:Did you know, with the edit summary "recycled hook to improve main page balance". You added Jan 29 main page, Makasib -where was this recycled from? And to the current hooks on the main page, you've added Alison Hughes that already appeared on on the Main Page on Jan. 21. Why are you changing the number of hooks in a set without consensus here? And why are you deciding which hooks should be added, without a consensus here? — Maile (talk) 13:07, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Items are routinely added or removed from sections of the main page to maintain balance (that is, the left side being roughly equal in length to the right side). Typically in the past, this has not included DYK, but there was no requirement for that preferential treatment. Items on the main page are subject to discussion at WP:ERRORS, which was the case for both of these instances. Both times the hooks were recycled from sets that recently already run, ensuring that they had gone through our approval process, and were still relevant to the DYK aims if showcasing new material. Harrias 13:20, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Harrias explained the situation accurately.

I selected relatively short hooks (to avoid overcorrection) and sought topics distinct from those already present. The Makasib hook originally appeared on 26 January. —David Levy 13:32, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

It's a good solution to a common problem of making sure the main pages is balanced. Better to add than to take away from other sections. I don't see what the big deal is, but I knew it was just a matter of time before someone here complained about it. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:02, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Concerns are not necessarily complaints, but I digress. North America 14:32, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Queue 1 - Deseret alphabet

".. that at one point, street signs in Salt Lake City were written in the Deseret alphabet (pictured)?" nom.

The source actually says "it was used on at least some street markers". The hook implies that all signs used it. It should say "some street signs". Cwmhiraeth, Yoninah, Psiĥedelisto. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:12, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Right. I took "street signs" to mean "some street signs", but I could see how this could be misconstrued. Could an administrator fix this please? Yoninah (talk) 17:28, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it makes a statement that "street signs" were written in "Deseret alphabet", not that just a few were. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:45, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

This queue goes live very soon (about 20 min from now AFAICS), and I concur that "some" is needed. I think "at one point" should be changed to "at one time", making:

• ... that at one time, some street signs in Salt Lake City were written in the Deseret alphabet (pictured)?

@Maile66, Casliber, and Graeme Bartlett: As DYK-active admins who have edited WP recently (last hour or so), would one of you please update the queue before it goes to the main page? Thanks. EdChem (talk) 21:51, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Added. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:58, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Sorry about that guys! I thought that the sentence would be interpreted as some and was trying to keep the hook short. But now that I'm reading it again, I can see the ambiguity ... Psiĥedelisto (talk) 23:48, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

No main page update

I'm off to bed, so I can't look into it, but for some reason, despite the fact that the Queue is populated, the main page update hasn't happened. Can anyone have a look into it? Harrias 23:20, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

I think it may be because someone has realised how far late the updates have got in recent days and decided it would be more pragmatic to hold one set on for a couple of extra hours to bring it back into sync rather than letting it take forever to naturally return. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 23:26, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Actually, it's not that at all: the DYKUpdateBot appears to have died. I've notified Shubinator on his talk page. I don't know that there are any admins around who can handle a manual update, but I'll see if I can find someone. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:15, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Updated by Materialscientist, to whom many thanks. Now, if some admin could promote a prep or two, so we're ready for next time... BlueMoonset (talk) 00:45, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Prep 4 - Chenail Island

"... that a monument on Chenail Island honors the families that lived there before much of the island was submerged?" (nom.

The article says the monument was placed there to honor approximately forty families that once resided on the island before their land was expropriated by the government for the power station, i.e. it honours the fact the land was taken for the construction of the power station. I think the link isn't as causal as it it implies. MB, Cwmhiraeth, Yoninah. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:24, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Without looking at the sources, another part of the article states that the power station is twelve miles downstream, and its construction caused the water level to rise. I guess the government provided compensation, but the hook seems OK to me. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:49, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I just don't see the hook, as written, explicitly cited in the article per the DYK rules. Maybe I missed it. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:57, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Prep 6

Pinging @Soman:, @Al Ameer son:

• ... that the Revolutionary Communist Party of India (Tagore) fell into oblivion due to its isolation from other left-wing groups?

It's hard to see the hook fact in the article. The article seems to be referring to opposition from "CPI(M)", but does not identify who that is. Yoninah (talk) 20:15, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Not to mention that "fell into oblivion" is hardly encyclopedic. But it's been reviewed, passed and promoted, so clearly three people think it's just fine. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:18, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't see that as a problem. Do you want them to "became oblivious"? Yoninah (talk) 20:22, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

That doesn't make any sense at all. Perhaps you should leave it to a native English speaker before making suggestions or claiming that "fell into oblivion" isn't neutral in tone. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:23, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

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