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Revision as of 02:12, 2 October 2006

Umm, why is this a sub-page (xxx/yyy format). That format is no longer preferred. Can you all find a name in the main article space for this? GRBerry 23:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I (the creator of this page) didn't realize that the format was obsolete. It is being moved. Hgilbert 23:18, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Text moved from article

Particular racial or ethnic groups

BEG TO DIFER? ...but it is scientifically proven that black bodies absorb light whereas white reflect it(i.e, planck's black body in the early years of quantum mechanics) if the absoption of light energy is critical to higher consciousness, then whatever body that can more efficiently absorb light must be must be at an advantage. i do not espouse any of these views, but a more consistent theory of spiritual light energy would have reasoned in a similar manner.

About blond? As we know, the world in inherently deceitful---as a consequence, many plausible things are bound to be fundamentally false. when the romans and the greeks encountered the germanic tribes and the scandinavian vikings, they had concluded that these relatively backward cultures were inherently inferior. they had no written language, and seemed to have no interest in philosophy, commented many ethnocentric roman observers. since, the northerners had no advanced cultures prior to their contact with the southerners, and that the collapse of ROME well coincided with its integration of northerners, then one may argue that the genetic admixture improved the northerners while weakening the southerners. I do not harbor any of these views but my point has been to show that equally plausible alternative arguments are conceivable as rebuttals to the supposed inherent superiority of blondess.

Charges of Racism

Comments

This text above was moved from the article as it violates WP:NOR. Please discuss the fate of this text here. Aquirata 17:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Metamorphosis of Language

The quote below is from 1923. He may have changed his terminology, but not his thoughts.

"These blacks in Africa characteristically suck in, absorb, all light and all heat from the cosmos. And, humans being humans, this light and this heat from the cosmos cannot pass through the entire body. It does not flow through the entire body, but it stops at the skin. In this way, the complexion itself becomes black. Consequently, a black in Africa is a human who absorbs and assimilates as much light and heat from the cosmos as possible. As he does this, the forces of the cosmos work throughout that human. Everywhere, he absorbs light and heat, really everywhere. He assimilates them within himself. There really must be something which helps him in this assimilation. That something is mainly the cerebellum. This is why a Negro has an especially well developed cerebellum. This is linked to the spinal marrow; and they can assimilate all light and heat which a human contains. As a consequence, especially the aspects which pertain to the body and to metabolism are strongly developed in a Negro. He has a strong sexual urge -as people call it-, strong instincts. And as, with him, all which comes from the sun -light and heat- really is at the skin's surface, all of his metabolism works as if the sun itself is boiling in his inside. This causes his passions. Within a Negro, cooking is going on all the time; and the cerebellum kindles the fire. (...) And we, Europeans, we poor Europeans, we have the thinking life, which resides in the head. (...) Therefore, Europe has always been the starting point of everything which develops the human entity in such a way that at the same time a relationship with the outside world arises. (...)

"When Negroes go to the west, they cannot absorb as much light and heat any more as they were used to in their Africa. (...) That is why they turn copper red, they become Indians. That is because they are forced to reflect a part of the light and heat. They turn shiny copper red. They cannot keep up this copper red shining. That is why the Indians die out in the West, they die because of their own nature which does not get enough light and heat, they die because of the earthly factor.(...)

"Really, it is the whites who develop the human factor within themselves. Therefore they have to rely on themselves. When whites do emigrate, they partly take on the characteristics of other areas, but they die more as individuals than as a race. The white race is the race of the future, the race that is working creatively with the spirit."

--Pete K 03:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Hanssons reliability in description of Anthroposophy

I have added a reference to criticism of an earlier article by Mr. Hansson on Anthroposophy as being unreliable, based on a full quote of the first part of his article and the quotes he uses to support his criticism, and showing with an analysis of them based on more full and additional quotes, how he distorts the sources he uses, as this is notable and relevant in understanding Mr. Hansson's writings on Anthroposophy in general, including his writings on Steiner's views on "race", and has implications for his credibility as author on anthroposophy and Rudolf Steiner, and the reader is entitled to know about this. --Thebee 09:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry your self published criticism cannot be cited as a source here. see Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources#Using online and self-published sources. Lumos3 17:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, EVERYTHING regarding Steiner's racism is "unreliable" to TheBee. I would like to collect diffs that demonstrate what he has been doing here. Can somebody please explain to me how I can create diffs? I think this has gone on long enough and it's probably time to get the administrators involved in this. It is incredible, to me, that editors are expected to work on these articles while revisionists continually revert their edits because everything seems "unreliable" to them. --Pete K 03:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

http://www.thebee.se/comments/Hansson-commented.htm in full quotes the major part of Mr.Hansson's article "Is Anthroposophy Science?" from 1991 and demonstrates in what way he misrepresents the sources he writes that he describes in a way that shows his unreliability as author of the subject he purports to discuss in his paper. It's a detailed analysis and a simple fact. Nothing to get upset about. --Thebee 23:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Again - this stuff is self-published original research Sune. As Lumos3 pointed out above, it has no business here. --Pete K 05:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

That was not the issue in your comment. You questioned my judgment and statement that Hansson is unreliable as author on anthroposophy, based on what he writes in his article from 1991, analysed here: http://www.thebee.se/comments/Hansson-commented.htm It shows he is. Disagree? --Thebee 06:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not interested in your assessment of his work Sune, I know it for what it is. And you are continually spamming Misplaced Pages with links to your websites that point to your obtuse analysis of everything that critique's Waldorf and Steiner. Your original research opinions don't interest me and I'm sure they don't interest many of the readers who are intelligent enough to see them for what they are - YOUR opinions. --Pete K 14:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Now our friend, Thebee, has removed the link to this article. Thank goodness I was here to add it back. --Pete K 00:05, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I did not remove the link to the article. I conformed the link to the standard in the article of linking to external sites through foot notes. --Thebee 10:02, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

chronology

It would be helpful to have the dates of all quotes, to see the development of Steiners thinking on this subject. --Vindheim 09:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

That would certainly be possible - if the quotes themselves were still available here instead of deleted. Steiner did, indeed, go through a period of time during which he seemed more sympathetic to the races but later reverted to his more difficult-to-reconcile views. I have tried to provide the dates of the lectures when they are available in each direct quote I have provided. --Pete K 19:38, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Who Writes This Stuff?

From the article: "He refers to the tragedy of black Africans being ‘brutally’ brought to Europe against their will. He states that this "brutal tragedy" will work to the disadvantage of both peoples, in particular weakening the European stock. (Note that this seems to contradict his general comments about racial admixture being a necessary part of the transition to a universally human culture.)"

This is totally ridiculous. Steiner was talking about black SOLDIERS stationed in France. The "cultural brutality" that Steiner is talking about is to OTHER people in Europe. Steiner is saying that the French will "ruin their own blood", for bringing blacks to Europe. "The French nation will be weakened as a race". Steiner is not concerned at all about black people here - he is concerned about Europe and the effect of transplanting blacks to Europe will have on Europeans and specifically European blood. Here's the exact quote:

STEINER (1923) "No doubt about it, the soul becomes corrupted through using the French language...It is also possible at the present time that the French will even ruin their own blood, the very element which has kept their language going as a corpse. That is a terrible thing the French people are doing to other people, the frightful cultural brutality of transplanting black people to Europe. It affects France itself worst of all. This has an incredibly strong effect on the blood, the race. This will substantially add to French decadence. The French nation will be weakened as a race."

It would be nice if commentary in this article was somehow supported with some evidence. It's bad enough the material presented here by others is slanted, but when they reverse what is being said, it's just dishonest. --Pete K 00:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's some support from my claim, BTW - from Time Magazine - dated March 3, 1923

Posted Saturday, Mar. 3, 1923

General Degoutte continues to warn Germany and the French Government continues to inform the world that it will not leave the Ruhr until Germany shows a reliable disposition to settle her reparations liability.

The French have succeeded in improving railway transportation. A direct service to Paris began on February 26.

The customs cordon round the Ruhr area has been completed, and the French say that it is now impossible for the Germans to smuggle anything out of the enclosed district.

The Germans have complained bitterly about French brutality; about the prohibition of Wilhelm Tell at the theatres; about the expulsions of German officials from the Ruhr; and about the use of black troops. In connection with the last complaint, German contentions are backed up by first-hand unbiased evidence, despite French denials.

From the Mar. 3, 1923 issue of TIME magazine

Notice the use of the word "brutality" refers to the USE of black troops, not the treatment of them. Here's another link to a WIKI article that discusses this:

So, would anybody object to me removing or revising this ridiculous misrepresentation in the article? I'll wait until tomorrow to remove it. --Pete K 01:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The article doesn't claim that the brutality has anything to do with their treatment, but rather with their being brought to Europe. If you want to change this to "used in Europe", this would be fine. The passage should stay, however. Hgilbert 09:53, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The passage, Harlan, implies the exact OPPOSITE of what Steiner meant in his comments. In literary terms, Harlan, that is called a LIE. We're not going to do that here Harlan just because some people want to paint a pretty picture of Steiner. Here's what the passage should say:

"He joined other Germans in protesting the French for the housing and deployment of black African soldiers in Europe. He states that this "cultural brutality" will work to the disadvantage of both peoples, in particular weakening the European stock." I will make this change. --Pete K 13:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The change is fine, and maintains the accuracy of the article. It does not differ from the previous version in any significant way as far as I can see. Hgilbert 15:18, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

LMAO... yes, hardly any difference at all Harlan. --Pete K 21:28, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I have added a portion of the following quote after the sentence about Asians to better clarify Steiner's position on Asian races.:

"The Asian peoples, in particular, have not descended so deeply, nor become so entangled with the physical but neither have they contributed so much to the conquest of the latter as have the Europeans. We see how the Europeans, especially, have brought about what we call external, physical civilisation whereas the stragglers from Atlantean conditions have stood still and have consequently been unable to find their bearings in the post-Atlantean world because they preserved certain characteristics and subsequently degenerated. It is often pointed out nowadays that their inherent qualities are bringing about significant progress in the Japanese. This is an illusion. They are not developing as a result of their own characteristics. Their victory in the last war was achieved by means of warships and guns invented by Europeans -- by exploiting an alien civilisation. Progressive development is only possible when a people can evolve by virtue of its own intrinsic nature. That is the crucial point."

Rudolf Steiner, Universe, Earth and Man (London: Rudolf Steiner Press, 1987); this is a translation of Rudolf Steiner, Welt, Erde und Mensch, Dornach 1983 (GA 105) (p. 147)

Here's another version of the quote:

"The Mongolian peoples have not descended so deeply, nor have they entangled themselves so much in the physical plane nor done so much towards its conquest as the people of Europe. We see that external physical civilization is accomplished by western nations rather than by the stragglers from Atlantean civilization who had remained stationary, and were therefore not at home in a world of post-Atlantean development, because they had retained certain qualities and had then degenerated.

It is often pointed out that the Japanese are going through a significant development today through the qualities of their own character. This is an illusion. They are not developing through the force of their own qualities. In the last war against Russia they conquered with the help of battleships and cannon invented by Europeans; they made use of a foreign civilization. It is only progressive development when a people develops from out its own being. It is on this that development depends."

And another example of his thinking along these lines:

"The European sort of invention is impossible for either the Chinese or the Japanese." (The Evolution of the Earth and Man and the Influence of the Stars. (1924) Trans. Gladys Hahn. Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1987 p. 77)

--Pete K 03:25, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikification

We have been asked to Wikify the article. There are various things that may need doing; add to this list as you see fit (and comment):

Hanson quotes

These should not form a separate subsection, but be incorporated into the general body through addition of any new points and referencing to his article

quotes at end

According to Misplaced Pages:quotations: "editors should try and work quotations into the body of the article, rather than in a stand alone quote section. Misplaced Pages is not a list or repository of loosely associated topics such as quotations. A simple list of quotations would be better suited for our sister project, Wikiquote.

Similarly, quotations should be always introduced in articles. Stand alone quotations are not proper paragraphs. Quotations should be put in context and given any necessary explanation. As an editor, it is your responsibility to read the source of the quotation thoroughly, in order to prevent misrepresentation.

Third, while quotations are an indispensable part of Misplaced Pages, try not to overuse them. Too many quotes take away from the encyclopedic feel of Misplaced Pages. Also, editors should avoid long quotations if they can keep them short. Long quotations not only add to the length of many articles that are already too long, but they also crowd the actual article and remove attention from other information"

and

"If there are many quotations, please move them to Wikiquote and place a Wikiquote template on the article to inform readers that there are relevant quotations regarding the subject. "

The whole quote section should be moved to Wikiquote (special quote list on races/ethnic groups) with a link in this article. Hgilbert 10:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. This is EXACTLY the place to quote Steiner. The article is called "Rudolf Steiner's views on race and ethnicity" - so this is where we should be reading HIS views and not the views of editors interested in hiding what he said. The example above, regarding the housing of the French in Europe demonstrates how some editors here are intentionally HIDING Steiner's own views and putting a goody-goody spin on everything the man said. The proposal above is an incredibly blatant attempt to whitewash, once again, the TRUE political, spiritual and social positions of Steiner. They have been moved from the Steiner page to this sub-page, and now you suggest they should be buried even further. Nonsense! --Pete K 13:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Someone put the Wikify notice in this article, asking us to conform to Misplaced Pages usage. The Misplaced Pages standards for quotations are available to read at Misplaced Pages:Quotations. Please read them and help us meet these standards. That is all that is being asked. Hgilbert 15:15, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Quotations shuold be worked into the article body in a seamless way or moved to wikiquote per Misplaced Pages:quotations. Please look at Talk:Friedrich Nietzsche and its archives for a similar issue. In that case, it was also the opponents of the subject of the article who wanted to "expose" the subject with cherry-picked quotations. Their conclusion differed dramatically with the mainstream scholarly research on Nietzsche. Here, I sense that there is less consensus (and less interest) in academia on this subject. But nonetheless, this article should reflect, and refer to, the spectrum of scholarly opinion on Steiner. — goethean ॐ 14:02, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

HGilbert writes above "Please read them and help us meet these standards." The standard of honesty should come first Harlan. --Pete K 21:31, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Honesty does not preclude following guidelines of the encyclopedia. We have been specifically asked to bring this article into line with these guidelines. Can you understand this? Hgilbert 23:07, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

No, Harlan - I can't understand how honesty would or should be at odds with the guidelines. That's why I disagree that moving the quotes to a third burial site after the first two have been discovered is the right way to proceed. This is the page where Steiner's quotes should be prevalent. I don't believe there is any reason to move them elsewhere. Indeed, it is clear that the guidelines can be followed without moving the quotes. --Pete K 00:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I was asked to comment here because my bot added the wikification tag, I should point out that it didn't actually add it, rather just re-sorted the tag someone else added by date. Regardless, Wikification largely just means bring it in line with normal wiki formatting style, to me it seems to be inline with our style now. Martin 15:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying this Martin. Some people here will use any excuse to hide the facts, it seems. --Pete K 16:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

The Anthroposophical Commission's Findings

I really don't understand why the findings of a "commission" of Anthroposophists is relevant here at all. We all get that Anthroposophists don't find the stuff Steiner said to be racist. That a commission of Anthroposophists took four years to review a portion of Steiner's material and came to the concusion that it wasn't racist is NO surprise here and hardly deserves mention in this article. As I have said before, it would be like Christians reviewing the New Testament and proclaiming that it is true. It makes to remove the entire derisory section completely. It's the Anthroposophical equivalent of holocaust denial. --Pete K 16:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, since nobody opposes the removal of this section, I'll be removing it later today. --Pete K 13:25, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Pete, one day is not enough time to allow for comments; I suggest one week. The members of the commission had considerable standing in Dutch legal and professional circles. That is the sole criteria. Note again (it is tiresome to repeat things, please get to know Misplaced Pages standards) that Misplaced Pages forbids excluding people's point of view based upon their affiliations. Hgilbert 18:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Naw... I'm not going with one week. You guys are here babysitting this article every day. It is increasingly tiring to have you referring me to the Misplaced Pages standards when you are so careless with them yourself. You routinely remove any critical point of view, sometimes underhandedly as administrators have noted. This is not excluding someone's opinion, this is a question of whether that opinion has any relevance AT ALL to the article. I'm not suggesting we exclude them based on their affilitations, but based on the fact that the finding of the commission were irrelevant. It would be like defending the verdict of the Salem witch trials by pointing out that the court actually proved the people were witches. Duh... Who cares? --Pete K 02:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Why not allow more than one day to pass for editors to review changes? There's over 1,000,000 articles at Misplaced Pages. Sometimes editors choose to edit articles on other topics that interest them, for their own reasons. The sheer bulk of information in the articles related to Waldorf education and Steiner alone would take any editor almost a day to read over them all. It's simply unreasonable to expect anybody to be able to track every edit to every Waldorf related article in a 24 hour period. If the content is long standing, and only yourself showing an objection to it being there, then your attitude is that of a POV-pusher. I won't stand in the way of anyone reinserting the deleted content if that's what consensus here has reached. Your accusations of babysitting err on the side of failing to assuming good faith and will extend a block to those involved in edit wars if they resurface. -- Longhair\ 02:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a clear violation of the NPOV policy. These are published findings of an established commission of qualified experts. Hgilbert 18:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Qualified? What are you talking about Harlan. This is a ridiculously biased comission of Anthroposophists acquitting Steiner of racism in the face of hundreds of racist quotes. What nonsense. Talk about pushing a POV... THIS is a perfect example. It is revisionism at it's highest and grandest. In any case, there is absolutely NO benefit to this article to point to this commissions findings UNLESS you are pushing YOUR POV. The article is discussing "Steiner's views on race and ethnicity", not the Anthroposophical Commissions POV about Steiner's views. The best approach for this article is to quote Steiner and let people decide for themselves what Steiner's views were. We've got his own words, and you've already gone to great efforts to twist them at every opportunity in this article. Having an Anthroposophical commission's proclamation that Steiner's racist comments aren't racist is not only unnecessary, and irrelevant, it is ludicrous. You're suggestion that these are qualified experts that can represent a NPOV is comical. --Pete K 18:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

To quote from the article: "The chair of the commission was Ted A. van Baarda, director of the Humanitarian Law Consultancy in The Hague. He studied international public law at Leyden State University and completed his thesis at the University of Twente in 1992 on the subject of colliding human rights. In 1993 to 1994 he served as General Secretary of the Conference on the Rights of Children in Armed Conflict and subsequently organized a conference on civil-military cooperation. He teaches at the Military Staff College (Instituut Defensie Leergangen Ypenburg) near The Hague and, on an occasional basis, at the Netherlands Institute on International Relations "Clingendael." He has written widely in journals and the popular media on issues of international law and morality."

That is a highly qualified source; other members of the commission were also highly qualified and the study was detailed and in depth, including all comments by Steiner about race. It is against Misplaced Pages policy to exclude anyone due to organizational affiliation. Note that you have inserted Hansson's POV about Steiner's views. Hgilbert 01:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The Ruhr area vs Europe

I have reverted the change HGilbert made because it was inaccurate. Here's the quote from Steiner:

STEINER (1923) "No doubt about it, the soul becomes corrupted through using the French language...It is also possible at the present time that the French will even ruin their own blood, the very element which has kept their language going as a corpse. That is a terrible thing the French people are doing to other people, the frightful cultural brutality of transplanting black people to Europe. It affects France itself worst of all. This has an incredibly strong effect on the blood, the race. This will substantially add to French decadence. The French nation will be weakened as a race." [Steiner, Rudolf. *Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf School in Stuttgart 1922 to 1923: Volume Three: Being the end of the Fourth Year*. (1923) Trans. Pauline Wehrle. Forest Row, U.K.: Steiner Schools Fellowship Publications, 1988, pp. 87-88.]

Steiner does not say the Ruhr area (Western Germany) - he says "Europe" - the Time article talks about the Rhur area. Additionally, I changed the part about "both" races suffering for the mixing of blood. Steiner only talks about the effects to the French blood - how "This has an incredibly strong effect on the blood, the race. This will substantially add to French decadence. The French nation will be weakened as a race." He is not concerned at all with the blood of the black race. --Pete K 02:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Administrators - Please Keep an Eye on the Edits

People who are seeking to revise history are systematically removing quotes that have been properly cited and that represent Steiner's views on the races. That is what this section is supposed to be about - Steiner's views. I am hoping Administrators will keep an eye on these edit wars and identify the people who are continually reverting edits without discussion or without citing a valid reason for doing so. This is becoming frustrating for editors like myself who have demonstrated an understanding of the subject matter and are trying to produce an article that is evenly balanced and not a whitewash of Steiner's views on race. --Pete K 23:24, 29 September 2006 (UTC)