Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:12, 1 September 2017

30 August 2017

Johnvr4's userspace pages

User:Johnvr4/sandbox (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|XfD|restore)

User:Johnvr4/Operation Red Hat (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|XfD|restore)

User:Johnvr4/Sandbox4 (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|XfD|restore)

This material relates to Japan and weapons of mass destruction and specifically to Japan and weapons of mass_destruction #U.S. weapons of mass destruction and Japan which includes Operation Red Hat. There were numerous misrepresentation of facts in all previous deletions of this material going back to 2013 and they continue today. Recently, after ongoing and heated conversations with these editors, my drafts were nominated for deletion. The drafts contain all diffs from the original deletion (first edit of User:Johnvr4/Operation Red Hat) to the most recent versions (last edits of User:Johnvr4/sandbox or User:Johnvr4/sandbox4) for comparison. Two of the involved editors blatantly and knowing misrepresented the facts when they stated the drafts were not being edited or improved. Further, they knowingly misrepresented the facts when they stated the material was stale, abandoned, Fake, not being condensed, had the exact same unresolved issues from the last time it was deleted, or was unsuitable on the main page. The simple fact is that the majority of that draft material at User:Johnvr4/Operation Red Hat- with dozens of newer sources added since the the initial 2013 deletion had been condensed by creating new main space articles or by moving it to an appropriate existing article- all of which are of main space right now where the material has been there since it was moved -and each of these editors are very well aware of it and have been for some time. Examples of those pages are available:U.S. weapons of mass destruction and Japan, 1968 Kadena Air Base B-52 crash, U.S. nuclear weapons in Japan, United States military anti-plant research, MK ULTRA, etc. Only the remainder of material that had not yet been moved to the main page was here: User:Johnvr4/sandbox. In fact, the nominating editor has repeatedly stated his motivation for deleting material not only in my the drafts but on the main page is based upon his misunderstanding of the subject as he repeatedly refuses to acknowledge what the reliable sources present and relentlessly challenges any use that does not fit his faulty understanding. Talk:U.S._nuclear_weapons_in_Japan#Terrorist_threat_and_weapons_removed_in_1972-_Apparent_POV I have documented that behavior and as well and that editors own statements that describe such behavior several times.

He previously acknowledged the value of keeping this material so here I'll just quote him, "This article requires further cleanup, and focusing on the primary topic, as well as investigation of sources. There is also an enormous amount of useful material in the previous versions that deserves to be in a wide range of other CW, BW, and Vietnam War related articles. Buckshot06 (talk) 19:08, 10 June 2013 (UTC)"

This week he has deleted two highly reliable sources for that material perhaps because they also disprove and directly contradict assertion that two involved editors (and Others) have been making literally for years.

He has fiercely contested those moves and is still actively contesting it (for example here): Talk:U.S._nuclear_weapons_in_Japan#Terrorist_threat_and_weapons_removed_in_1972-_Apparent_POV and here:

Each of my latest attempts to improve the draft were deleted as is described in the links below. These editors who misrepresented the facts were well aware of those ongoing efforts to improve prior to misrepresenting them to other the editors- which ended in deletion. They are also aware of my allegations about their behavior: User_talk:Johnvr4#MfD_debate and User_talk:Johnvr4#Red_Hat_content

Diffs can be compared to verify progression of the drafts vs. the 2013 deletion and the non-accuracy of their assertions. A plethora of previous conversation is available to prove my version of the facts regarding policy-based improvements in text and sources is accurate and theirs is dubious.

I provided this information to the deleting editor here: User_talk:Premeditated_Chaos#Deletion_of_userspace_material but she would not hear it and made further misrepresentations that falsely stated among other assertions: that I didn't present any policy arguments with regard to Stale or Fake articles or time components, "and has never been improved such that it would be policy-compliant in mainspace." Despite the obvious inaccuracy, that editor refused but also counter-accused me of misrepresentation of some fact but would not specify how or why she felt that way.

I requested undeletion by providing that same info here: Requests_for_undeletion#User:Johnvr4.2Fsandbox_.26_User:Johnvr4.2FOperation_Red_Hat but was unsuccessful.

Enough about editor behavior. An Administrator can look at what has been deleted and the links I provided. I can also provide any further clarification wherever it is needed.

I ask that the drafts be restored so that I can finish making policy compliant improvements and in addressing valid concerns of other editors. Further, I ask that steps be taken and steps be taken to address the obviously bogus assertions put forth in the deletion nomination by two involved editors that should have known better.

All of the five justifications for restoration apply: 1.if someone believes the closer of a deletion discussion interpreted the consensus incorrectly; 2. if a speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria or is otherwise disputed; 3.if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page; 4.if a page has been wrongly deleted with no way to tell what exactly was deleted; or 5.if there were substantial procedural errors in the deletion discussion or speedy deletion.

Please at least perform a temp restore to view the diffs and to discuss the numerous and super-obvious ongoing efforts to improve it. Johnvr4 (talk) 20:55, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Note: the MfD discussion took place at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/OpRedHat. Buckshot06 (talk) 08:16, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Request reformatted for legibility and condensed under one header.  Sandstein  13:09, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

• Endorse and kudos to PMC for handling this whole process with grace. She made the right call based on the discussion, previous AfD, and policy. The MfD was closed correctly. There was not a consensus to retain the information, and there was one to delete it. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:56, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
• Endorse the central argument for deletion here was not that the drafts were abandoned. It was that the drafts had not been improved to anything like mainspace standards and there was no prospect of this happening. Johnvr4 did make numerous edits to them, but those edits did not address the concerns which led to the deletion of the material in the first place. For example a major concern in the original AfD was the length and excessively large scope of the article, which was about 204KB at the time. None of the pages listed here was less than 211KB at the time of deletion. There is consensus that drafts which are unsuitable for mainspace should not be kept in userspace indefinitely, and while there is no fixed time limit I can't fault the participants for deciding that four years is too long. Hut 8.5 19:28, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Note responding to Hut 8.5:

Can we recheck the size of the three pages? I feel that there is no way that those three pages- all three with three different subjects (two were condensed versions) were all the same size. I assert that they had to be three very different sizes. Yet size to my knowledge is not a Justification for deletion either- especially in a draft that was in the process of being broken up into several different articles.

The central Argument was that the drafts were stale. Quote: "At Misplaced Pages:Miscellany_for_deletion/OpRedHat I have nominated your stale userpage for deletion. Regards Buckshot06 (talk) 02:21, 18 August 2017 (UTC)"

I'd like to add that the nominating editor and I have numerous content disputes (the scope of the draft is absolutely one of our content disputes). Policy: "It is also inappropriate to request deletion because of an editorial dispute. Such disputes are not resolved by deleting the whole page; instead, use dispute resolution".

Regarding the MfD, There is also no way that all or most issues that caused the draft to be deleted in the first place have not been corrected in my versions or were not in the process of being corrected this week. For example, one editor User:Moe_Epsilon at the fabricated a concern about my editing and claimed "I cooked something up." Then that editor made all types of other ridiculous assertions that are disproved by this source (plus the ones already mentioned) which I added only minutes before buckshot06 deleted the the entire sandbox4 draft just this week! The Diffs that were deleted (which I cannot see because I am not an administrator) would prove that I did not write that passage- but there is no just way to see it now since all the diffs are gone. The diffs would prove that Buckshot06 himself put that nonsense that got the page deleted right back on the main space and abused all of the sources he cited. Note also that buckshot06's POV version is missing most of the majority and minority viewpoints in every single one of the sources he has cited.

That was one reason that the original deletion was unfair in the original AFD and is why assertions that those problems were not ever fixed are utterly ludicrous. That alone justifies restoration. #4.if a page has been wrongly deleted with no way to tell what exactly was deleted;

Please stop making untrue assertions such as this one: "but those edits did not address the concerns which led to the deletion of the material in the first place." Do not base decisions on such false statements and assertions that are not remotely true. If an editor is going to make such assertions the please at least perform a temp restore and provide a specific example so I can disprove it right here and now. Leaving it Indefinately?

Time: You cant fault the participants for thinking "Four years..."? Here is the fault: Editors should look at the dates on these pages to recalculate time and then please stop making the freaking misrepresentations about "the drafts had not been improved to anything like mainspace standards and there was no prospect of this happening". How can that be said with a straight face? These are main space pages are where the text from my draft was moved to: U.S. weapons of mass destruction and Japan, 1968 Kadena Air Base B-52 crash, U.S. nuclear weapons in Japan, United States military anti-plant research, MK ULTRA, etc.

Last consensus is not a vote. Johnvr4 (talk) 04:03, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

• Comment, since I was pinged with your mention of my name. Let me make one thing clear John: I did not fabricate a concern with your editing behavior because your editing is concerning. I take a look at your contributions since 2012, which started with you editing the Operation Red Hat article, and not much has changed between now and then and you operate on the same level of a single purpose account. You have only edited a small handful of article topics and I can't look through your editing history and find an example of you making major changes to an article and then not having a major dispute on the talk page. Your contributions have either been deleted outright, reverted partially or debated upon heavily. That is concerning. I told you back in 2014 that was concerning because I took a single reference you supplied, which was used several times in your writing, and it wasn't factually accurate according to what the references said. That is a large reason why the article was deleted in the first AFD. You are more than welcome to start over, find references and provide content in the main space of the article on Operation Red Hat if it is missing by using reliable references. You don't need your old user space for it and honestly it isn't worth trying to "fix it." After five years, I trust you know how to do it better than you did at the start, so start over and let it go. Regards, — Moe Epsilon 05:12, 1 September 2017 (UTC)