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A35821361 is NOTHERE

Hello, this is pretty much my first time posting at ANI. Basically, A35821361 seems to be only here to criticise the Baha'i Faith and to attack it. His response to being blocked for edit warring was to blame the "members of the Baha'i Faith" for it. He also complained about how "While 36 hours is a brief time to be banned, this complaint is a pattern of intimidation by members of the Bahá'í Faith on those who wish to shed light on historically accuracy, which is not always the narrative sanctioned by the Bahá'í Administrative Order" -- quote from the diff I've linked to, , I humbly submit this editor is clearly NOTHERE. I'm sorry for how poor my post looks...just not the best at this.79.66.4.79 (talk) 17:45, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, your diff doesn't work, and I can't figure out what you intended. Please create a diff the way it says here. Also, it might be useful to mention which article he was edit warring on. Bishonen | talk 20:23, 14 September 2017 (UTC).

Fixed the diff, and A35821361 was edit-warring on the Baha'i Faith page. 79.66.4.79 (talk) 20:50, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

A diff from May is not indicative of a current problem. However, poking into User:A35821361's contrib history, I'm not sure WP:NOTHERE is the right issue, but it does look like A35821361 is hostile to Baha'i, and is prone to edit-warring. I don't want to step into this mess, but think some admin or another should. They should probably also notify the user. Argyriou (talk) 23:11, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

I would like to thank Argyriou (talk) for mentioning my username here, otherwise I would have no inkling that this discussion was underway. In any case, it is true that I frequently contribute to topics related to the Bahá'í Faith. As my contributions are sourced from objective, third-party references they are not always in concordance with the officially-sanctioned narrative of the Bahá'í Administrative Order. This has often led to the reversion of these contributions and allegations that they are somehow "hostile," when in fact they are unbiased. If you read the continuation of the quote which 79.66.4.79 (talk) has linked to above, it continues, "In fact, this intimidation has led several prominent academics to leave or be ex-communicated by the Bahá'í Administrative Order (see Juan Cole, Abbas Amanat, Denis MacEoin, and Ehsan Yarshater)." It saddens me that these tactics are now attempted in Misplaced Pages. Regards, A35821361 (talk) 00:15, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Not a[REDACTED] contributor, but just thought i'd chime in to say that some of your first contributions included an entirely uncited claim that Baha'u'llah sold slaves to pay off debts with zero sources, neutral or hostile, given. Getting better at finding citations to support an editorial agenda does not make that editorial agenda cease to exist. None of those academics was actually excommunicated or claimed to have been excommunicated, the closest thing would be Juan Cole claiming to have been threatened with excommunication (with the only source for that claim being Cole himself).UrielvIII (talk) 06:14, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

"Not a Misplaced Pages editor", indeed, considering that was your first edit. How did you find your way here? Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:17, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I lurk pages I'm interested in, (feel I don't have the writing/citing ability to contribute up to wiki standards though), user in question is a fairly active contributor in a lot of them so I've been lurking his contribution log as well (apologies if that's against[REDACTED] policy. Feel free to delete if it is).UrielvIII (talk) 06:21, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

A35 certainly seems to be here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. I have a theory as to why he so antagonistic to Baha'i, but that would be casting aspersions. Suggest a topic ban. 74.70.146.1 (talk) 01:51, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

The IP you're using began editing today, but you've been around: you know about WP:casting aspersions, for instance. If you have an account your normally edit with, you should have filed this complaint with that account. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:09, 15 September 2017 (UTC)Withdrawn. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:47, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I previously brought this up at the noticeboard here and got no response. I later tried more specific complaints about biographies of living persons here and here, also with no response. I think A35821361 was successful at scaring away any admins from looking past the surface by simply declaring himself to be unbiased. Anyone looking through edits and talk pages would recognize deception, but that takes time. The edit warring on biographies of living persons is still ongoing. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 06:10, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I would welcome anyone to look at my edit and contribution history to Misplaced Pages, and compare it to the edit and contribution history of other editors on the same articles. Aside from being sourced from objective, third party sources, my edits and contributions are entirely compliant with the guidelines of Misplaced Pages. On the other hand, one should consider what the objectives of some of the other editors are. For example, Cuñado ☼ - Talk has falsely accused me of sockpuppetry and called me a "deceitful attacker" on my talk page. More recently, there has been systematic reversions and deletions to the biographies of members of the Universal House of Justice, the supreme governing institution of the Bahá'í Faith whose decisions are deemed infallible by believers. The reason given for these reversions and deletions are that the members of the Universal House of Justice lack notability, when in fact in addition to their religious service to the Bahá'í Administrative Order many these individuals have led successful careers as academics, authors, artists, actors, and the heads of award-winning NGOs. Regards, A35821361 (talk) 09:42, 15 September 2017 (UTC).

This is comical. If there is an admin listening I'd be happy to lay out in detail why A35821361's last comment is deception (maybe delusion?) in line with how he has behaved for the last 9 months. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:13, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

• Comments at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Thornton Chase may be of interest. Smkolins (talk) 12:30, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, the article for Thornton Chase and the discussion for the AfD is demonstrative. Thornton Chase was an insurance salesman and is only covered in subjects relating to his position as the first convert to the Bahá’í Faith in the United States to have remained a Bahá’í. He does not pass any other notability guideline. None of the coverage is independent, as it all comes from Bahá’í sources, and priod to the AfD proposal almost entirely from one book written by a Bahá’í. This contrasts sharply with the articles of the members of Universal House of Justice members that have been systematically deleted, which were sourced from multiple different sources regarding various accomplishments of the individuals covered in their respective articles. Regards, A35821361 (talk) 13:16, 15 September 2017 (UTC).

Simply false. The biographies were stuffed with references that don't mention the person. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:14, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

A cursory look at Thornton Chase's article shows citations from a large number of independent newspapers. A skim of the contents of the article also shows that it covers his notable service in the Civil War. (although from the talk page these may have been added recently). By contrast the article for one House of Justice member, Stephen Birkland, contains citations exclusively from either Baha'i sources or Juan Cole, a former Baha'i who leveled accusations of misconduct against Birkland (the article that is not by a Baha'i or Cole only mentions Birkland by citing Cole's statements). Neither of those sources are neutral third parties. In any case the article only contains three paragraphs and could easily be merged into a larger article which is why I assume it would have been deleted (although I can't say that for certain) UrielvIII (talk) 15:16, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

To be fair the Chase article has been developed a ton since it was nominated. But A35821361's skills as a researcher and knowledge are far from mundane. I didn't have to look hard at all for many obvious third party sources. And that's aside from simply looking at the footnotes of Dr. Stockman's research. A35821361 didn't bother while he/she is perfectly willing to spend a great deal of time researching very obscure people for possible personal relationships to other things and beyond. In short he'd rather delete the article on Chase and work on some of these others even if many people agree that Chase is notable and the others several people have found unfounded. Smkolins (talk) 18:29, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

That's his prerogative to work on whatever he wants. There is nothing wrong with nominating for deletion. BTW, great job improving the article. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 20:27, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I've always tried to research up rather than dismiss down. It's odd to me that he creates the Robert Stockman article and then dismisses a key subject of Stockman's research for decades. Smkolins (talk) 20:56, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

For added context, it appears the user in question has posted to the following website accusing people of censoring him: https://bahaicensorship.wordpress.com/2016/09/28/bahai-faith-and-slavery-an-example-of-how-bahais-control-information-on-wikipedia/

The most obvious differences between the version of the article in the link and the current "censored" version on[REDACTED] are that the entirely unreferenced and unsupported claims that Baha'u'llah sold a slave to pay off debts and that attempts were made to have the book 'Black Pearls' suppressed have been removed.

My own thoughts from some browsing the talk pages of some of the more contentious Baha'i articles are that terms like 'official narrative' and 'excommunication' have been used which paints a picture of a point of view being oppressed and marginalized. However repeatedly editing pages to add content deleted/edited by others, dropping out of discussions on said edits/deletions rather than arguing ones point of view until an agreement is reached and adding inflammatory uncited information an is not a reasonable way to participate in a collaborative project.

To my knowledge Baha'is don't actually hold any positions of authority over wikipedia, with everyone being on more or less equal footing, making accusations of censorship and prosletyzing on a third party website seem counterproductive if the goal is to contribute to an unbiased tone on wikipedia. UrielvIII (talk) 07:19, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

This is the first time I have heard of this web page. The content therein I had shared on Reddit, relating to a discussion on Bahá’í censorship and information control. The owner of the web site you linked to must have cut-and-paste the content from Reddit into his website. Regards, A35821361 (talk) 13:52, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Which website it was published to is largely irrelevant. You have complained that you have been called a 'deceitful attacker' and your edits interpreted as hostile on wikipedia, while leveling similar accusations against people you're in disagreement with on an entirely different website rather than raising the issue in the context of an article or with[REDACTED] adminsUrielvIII (talk) 21:56, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Furthermore, upon reading the nothere rules, your articles claims of a cadre devoted to eliminating facts to proselytize is an accusation of a "Long-term agenda inconsistent with building an encyclopedia", something against wikipedias rules. If this 'cadre' does not actually exist (which in my opinion it does not) then editing with the intention of combating their 'official narrative' would in itself constitute a "Long-term agenda inconsistent with building an encyclopedia".UrielvIII (talk) 22:21, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

My contributions to Misplaced Pages speak for themselves. Where appropriate, I have engaged other editors in discussions on talk pages in relevant topics and articles, and if you have read them, you will note that topics such as Bahá’í review, censorship, information control, and the posthumous editing of literature have on occasion been discussed when relevant. What is ironic is that the endeavor of building a comprehensive encyclopedia is undermined not by my efforts but by those of individuals who engage in such practices as ensuring third-party referenced information is eliminated to bring articles in-line with the officially-sanctioned narrative of the Bahá’í Administrative Order and by their wholesale deletion of the articles related to the individual members of the Universal House of Justice under the pretenses (in my opinion wholly false) that these individuals do not meet notability standards. Regards, A35821361 (talk) 11:50, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

1. ^ Salisbury, Vance (1997). "A Critical Examination of 20th-Century Baha'i Literature". Bahá'í Library Online. Retrieved December 8, 2016.

Just because you keep saying that you're crusading against an "officially sanctioned narrative" with unbiased edits doesn't make it true. Accusing people of deleting under false pretenses is casting aspersions. UrielvIII (talk) 19:44, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

For added context here: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith_and_slavery&oldid=737879646 is one of your first contributions which was edited, it includes these sentences with no citations:

"Bahá'u'lláh officially condemned slavery in 1874, by which time he had actually sold a slave to pay debts.", "a book that, despite efforts at censorship by the Bahá'í Administrative Order, was published by the independent Bahá'í publishing company Kalimát Press.". Your inclusion of these false and baseless claims with no sources shows that at the very least you haven't always been committed to defending third-party sourcing, although your commitment to 'exposing' the "officially sanctioned narrative" has remained constant, sources or no. UrielvIII (talk) 00:13, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Also for context, this: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Gustavo_Correa talkpage on one of the UHJ articles includes a discussion from a month ago of your sourcing, where you're accused of misrepresenting what your cited sources contain. You have not tried to contest the accusation. UrielvIII (talk) 00:44, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

And for even more context, this: https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:A35821361#Good_morning discussion on your talk page pretty much sums up every other discussion you've had regarding your Members of the UHJ pages, you only imply that the fact you are correct is self evident, offer very little reasoning for why that is the case and then drop out of the discussion when counterpoints are raised. That behaviour is not conducive to cooperatively making an encyclopedia.

Your lack of willingness to co-operate with certain editors may be tied to your accusations in your article (linked above) of a secret cadre existing to proselytize on wikipedia, so we're back to that point you didn't address. If you are actively seeking to combat a group is that not a "Long-term agenda inconsistent with building an encyclopedia"? Conspiracy theories about the Bahá’í Administrative Order pushing a narrative don't prove that you are unbiased, if anything, the fact you bring them up to justify your edits makes you seem very biased. UrielvIII (talk) 01:01, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Among the examples of problems that may be of interest in this thread is:

• lacking responding to the points raised in edit comments about material attributed to living people. See my edits for example at . It was my understanding that rather than leave the contentious material in the article and tag it with a citation discussion that material on living people should be deleted and discussed to reach consensus. The discussion went precisely nowhere. And this is related to a network of articles that push something A358 really wants out there, judging from the level of engagement, against the input of multiple editors and been going on for a long time.
• There has also been some mis-attibution of sources in the case of the Kiser Barnes article and was part of the discussion of why that article was deleted. See . A358 did not participate but the matter was acted on.

The issues related to the Kiser Barnes article that was deleted have been discussed at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive960#Biographies of members of the Universal House of Justice as well as User talk:A35821361#Biographies and in the related material discussed on the talk pages of several of the other members of the Universal House of Justice including Farzam Arbab, Gustavo Correa, and Paul Lample. I apologies if it appeared to you that I was disinterested in the issues that led to the deletion of the Kiser Barnes article. Far from it. I would wish that article had not been deleted, as had the articles for Glenford Eckleton Mitchell, Douglas Martin (Bahá'í), and David Ruhe. I further wish the bulk of material had not been injudiciously removed from the articles for Farzam Arbab, Gustavo Correa, and Paul Lample. Regards, A35821361 (talk) 20:53, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Once again here and in the linked discussions you haven't addressed any of the counterpoints explaining why the article should have been removed, instead just saying and that the removal is unjust. No proof, just flowery language. UrielvIII (talk) 21:32, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

To get specific, on the linked discussion on your user talk page your edits are stated to have violated policy, your response is to state that you have addressed it on the talk pages of those articles. An example of such a discussion is present on the Gustavo Correa talk page, which I have mentioned in another post: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Gustavo_Correa. Your 'addressing' of the points consists of saying your sources are third party, saying they mention the subject or their work with no reasoning or actual discussion of why that is the case, and then not responding when you are accused of misrepresenting what your sources contain.

When the point of the bulk your 'third-party' sources not mentioning the person is raised in the discussion your user talk page you respond by entirely changing the subject, completely ignoring the accusation, and accusing Cunado of hypocrisy for starting the pages ten years ago and then stating he wants them deleted now. You have not, as of yet, addressed Cunado's explanation of his change in position, or the original point of your third-party sources being irrelevant to the subject of the articles. UrielvIII (talk) 04:25, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

As another example of your unwillingness to support your position in discussions of[REDACTED] policy is discussion of your most recent edits on the 'Criticism of the Baha'i Faith': https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Criticism_of_the_Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith Here it is stated that there is no notable criticism of the Faiths position on abortion, your response is to restate your own criticisms of the Faiths stance of abortions. I believe that your edits of this page, and discussion on the talk page show your attitude is that of someone attempting to use[REDACTED] as a soapbox.

My reasoning for this belief is that you essentially added your own personal interpretation of Baha'i scripture to a page, a direct quote: "but there are a few statements by its founders that raise some controversy by contradicting some current scientific understanding." (notably there is no citation of where this criticism comes from, presumably as it is your opinion), and your response to the question of whether this criticism was notable enough for inclusion on the talkpage was to double down on explaining why your interpretation is valid. While this is the most egregious example of your commitment to pushing an agenda (even here you have basically acknowledged you have an agenda of opposing the "Officially sanctioned narrative", justifying it as correcting a bias (with no reasoning) rather than denying you have an agenda), I believe this attitude is present in the majority of your edits, which (while I'm no expert) I think is against[REDACTED] guidelines UrielvIII (talk) 04:40, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps people specialized in editing articles on living people should weigh in rather us having to deal with accusations like "those of individuals who engage in such practices as ensuring third-party referenced information is eliminated to bring articles in-line with the officially-sanctioned narrative of the Bahá’í Administrative Order and by their wholesale deletion of the articles related to the individual members of the Universal House of Justice under the pretenses (in my opinion wholly false) that these individuals do not meet notability standards." Smkolins (talk) 14:32, 20 September 2017 (UTC) I beleive the point of this thread is whether WP:NOTHERE applies to User:A35821361. I'd entertain discussion of that. User:A35821361 - care to chime in on those points? Smkolins (talk) 13:23, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Accusation of bludgeoning. Article Plimpton 322

I have been accused of bludgeoning by David Eppstein on this page and as per advice raise a notice here. There is a dispute on this page. Recently an article about the subject of the page appeared in a prestigious academic journal to considerable publicity in 'quality' newspapers. Traffic to the page increased greatly. Some long term editors wish to exclude all mention of this article. This appears to be quite against the broad guidelines of[REDACTED] which says that all mainstream points of view must be represented. Various other editors have stated that the article should be mentioned. I requested comment some days ago but none has been forthcoming. 9and50swans (talk) 06:32, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Just to clarify for anyone following along: Plimpton 322 is the article being discussed, not a username. (I have no other interest in this discussion beyond pointing that out).Alephb (talk) 07:40, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

For clarity I changed the title of this section 9and50swans (talk) 09:24, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

• I have reviewed the article's talk page, and this thread simply constitutes yet more bludgeoning by the OP, who possibly deserves a b... a boo... a boom... I won't say it. EEng 12:19, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

A boom lowered on him? --(signed) Inquiring Editor

Maybe a booby prize? --Prize Patrol

Give him the boot? --Just for Kicks

Boom Bang-a-Bang? --Lulu

• as per advice raise a notice here - Where is this advice? I would be interested to see it, but just from what I see here it looks like bad advice. False accusations of bludgeoning are not actionable and may be shrugged off or resolved by respectful and civil discussion with the accuser. And this page is not for resolution of content disputes; see WP:DR. It's for actionable bad editor behavior. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:50, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm guessing someone somewhere said the classic, "If you want to keep complaining, take it to ANI." Maybe we should have a rule against that, 'cause threads like this one are what it leads to. EEng 19:20, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, and we can bring people to ANI for violating that rule. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:03, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Of course not. We'll have a series of meta-ANIs (ANI, ANI, etc.). See also User:EEng#A_rolling_stone_gathers_no_MOS. EEng 20:36, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

• https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Don%27t_bludgeon_the_process#Dealing_with_being_accused_of_bludgeoning_the_process

If you think a policy is being transgressed, ask an uninvolved administrator for their opinion.

Without quoting chapter and verse Misplaced Pages is supposed to report all strands of mainstream opinion, and it is clearly not happening here. Mention of a recent article in a respected academic journal is being suppressed. I am rather surprised that this can happen on wikipedia. If there is no easy remedy I suggest that this brings[REDACTED] into some disrepute. Whatever the outcome on this I am grateful for the education in how[REDACTED] works, which I will pass on to others 9and50swans (talk) 20:16, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

You really are, as you've been told before, bludgeoning. As far as I can tell you're not gaining an education in how Misplaced Pages works;; rather, the only thing you seem to be learning is that you're not getting what you want. EEng 20:54, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

In case the many article talk threads, RFC, and ANI thread here weren't enough, 9and50swans has now started yet another: see WP:NPOVN#Plimpton 322. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:50, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

• Just to note to suggest we keep this open a bit longer as the OP mentioned he'd be traveling a few days, and I anticipate further trouble. EEng 17:06, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Repetitive accusations of antisemitism and homophobia, and threats and personal attacks by XIIIfromTokyo

Summary of the request

Because of an original content dispute, XIIIfromTokyo has artificially created a discussion on antisemitism, and another one on homophobia, and has blatantly deformed my answers to say I am antisemitic and homophobic, and is repetiting these claims since December 2016 and on different pages in spite of my defense and other contributors' intervention. On top of that, he is doing intimidation, by telling me the press could talk about this and with legal threats to we do not know who. When I try to alert about this, he is changing the subject into a content dispute (talking about the content dispute, the French[REDACTED] article he wrote, his disputes there, comparison between articles, etc.), even though the content disputes are irrelevant here. When I try to tell him to stop calling me these things and threatening me, he is talking about the articles, and when I try to talk about the articles, he answers with these attacks. And he persists in this attitude in spite of all the warnings.

The content of the articles are off-topic here, but I worked on multiple articles and XIII – who has a tendency to paranoia (sorry for the use of the term) – is focusing on two of them to try to show a imaginary bias (even though I have been discussing with other editors on articles, and we managed to have consensus; these two articles were different and needed different answers, as talk pages and administrators decisions show), is doing every personal attacks to fulfill his imaginary purpose. He has been obviously wrongfully accusing me of antisemitism and homophobia, and attacking and threatening me for 10 months in talk pages. I do not feel safe contributing because these long-going attacks are very hurtful, they have been going on for a long time in spite of every call to stop and they will continue unless the user is banned.

--Launebee (talk) 19:32, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Detailed request and quotes

Dear administrators,

XIIIfromTOKYO has been accusing me of antisemitism, homophobia a bit everywhere since last year, and I cannot use a talk page without him going back to these outragious accusations. On top of that, he has been threatening me and constantly using an aggressive language.

ACCUSATIONS OF ANTISEMITISM

Original context

The first student association of Panthéon-Assas University is – at least on Facebook – a Jewish association, UEJF (Union des Étudiants Juifs de France) Assas. Because of that, someone tagged the door of this association office inside the university with a swastika, and the university and the student association asked the public prosecutor to bring charges.

XIII seems to have something against this university, so he is behaving aggressively to change the article, and another institution (this time in favor of it) because he considers they are rivals.

Among many misuse of sources, he gave many articles which related the swastika incident, and others (policemen had been put in the 1990s to protect the university from violent groups, like other Parisian universities). He was saying that it shows that the university has a tradition of antisemitism and racism and of beating (ratonnade) Jews and foreigners! I kindly explained, and wrote in particular: "What you are quoting (some fights sometimes near the university) is not at all what you are saying, ie foreigners and Jews being commonly beaten up in PA (ratonnades) or PA as an institution having or having the reputation to have an enduring tradition of racism and antisemitism!" He was talking of beating people out of racism and antisemitism, so I said that it is absolutely false that foreigners and Jews are beaten up in one of the top institutions of France.

Accusation 1

He deformed what I said and answered:

I explained that I obviously did not write that, but he is continuing since then to write on different pages I intervene that I wrote anti-Semitic things, or to imply I am a neo-nazi, so that I continuously have to defend myself, and so that the wrong is already done with other users.

Accusation 2

Accusation 3

Accusation 4

Accusation 5

Accusation 6

I am personally an indirect victim of the Jewish genocide, and I repetitively have to deal with things linked to it in my life, I feel deeply outraged by these constant accusations.

I hope the severity of the sanction to XIII will show that Misplaced Pages is not taking antisemitism lightly, and that you cannot constantly attack the honour of a contributor by playing with this despicable thing.

ACCUSATIONS OF HOMOPHOBIA

The same system: he transformed something, put it everywhere so I constantly have to defend myself of this accusation.

Original context

Richard Descoings died in mysterious circumstances. He was homosexual and married, and it was controversial. Many newspapers, including gay community newspapers, talked about it.) I used in the Sciences Po article the wording used in his article at that time , ie that he had a "controversial gay lifestyle", and for example anti-homophobic articles say it was, but it should not be. It was the beginning of constant accusations of homophobia by XIIIfromTokyo.

Accusation 1

Accusation 2

XIII never stroke his comment or answered this.

Bad "jokes"

One resistant during WW2 accused Sciences Po to have been a place of Collaboration during WW2.

With no link, an article from the Independant says that the system in which is Sciences Po is a machine to produce a "blinkered, often arrogant and frequently incompetent ruling freemasonry".

XIII mixed these things, as such:

Accusation 3

THREATS

XIII wants me to stop editing, otherwise he is implying he could create a media turmoil with what he accused me in talk pages. Sometimes in French so that other users cannot understand.

Threat 1

Threat 2

Translation: You are well aware that everything is public, and that anyone can post in on Twitter (with all the media fuss to come due to some expression used in talk page (PDD = page de discussion).

Those "expressions used" are obviously from him.

Threats 3 and 4: legal threats

These threats are not necessarily directed to me, but I signal that, as EdJohnston pointed out, XIII is doing legal threats now, by calling someone - so potentially anyone who disagrees with him - a "criminal".

CONSTANT ABUSIVE AND AGRESSIVE LANGUAGE

XIII has very often an abusive language toward me. I have been answering his repetitive personal attacks and repetitive arguments for more than a year, but even if I keep civil, he always turns it into personal attacks. I give just two examples among many.

Example 1: abusive language

Example 2: repetitive claim I did a legal threat

Because I was discussing the fact saying PA has an racist tradition is libelous, which is not a legal threat according to Misplaced Pages policy ("A discussion as to whether material is libelous is not a legal threat." He has been reminded it is not a legal threat by other contributors but he continues to claim everywhere I did legal threat.

There are many examples.

GENERAL

This attitude does not seem to be new. XIIIfromTokyo has already been blocked in French Misplaced Pages three days for "personal attacks and insults" and two weeks for "intimidation attempt or harassment".

There already has been requests here, but discussions were blurred in content discussion over Panthéon-Assas University and Sciences Po. Now, PA article has many sources, and Mr rnddude helped resolve the issues, and there has been a consensus on the lead of Sciences Po, with Robminchin helping. But XIII accusations are continuing, and it is becoming worse and worse.

Whatever the content dispute is, XIII is constant me insulting me by asserting or strongly implying that I am linked to antisemitism or neo-nazism. I repeat what I wrote: I am personally an indirect victim of the Jewish genocide, and I repetitively have to deal with things linked to it in my life, I feel deeply outraged by these constant accusations of antisemitism. I hope the severity of the sanction to XIII will show that Misplaced Pages is not taking antisemitism lightly, and that you cannot constantly attack the honour of a contributor by playing with this despicable thing.

To show the gravity of such accusations, I hope, on top of public apologies by him, at least a one-year ban will be decided (and a total ban if he does not apologise).

Regards,

--Launebee (talk) 10:24, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

• Purely for the administrative purpose of being able to parse out and read this thread (and hopefully to avoid some serious TLDR) I have removed all of the quotes, replacing them either the relevant diffs or links. I have also removed the silly number of subheaders. I took every effort to not actually remove any content added by Launebee. If someone feels this decision was improper they are welcome to replace it with the original content, which can be found here. Primefac (talk) 18:17, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

I kept the subheaders removed, but put back the quotes, because the sentences are to be found inside long texts, so specific quotes are needed. Your version without the quotes is to found here. Thanks for your help. --Launebee (talk) 22:05, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Fair enough, but I've collapsed the quotes, since that's kind of the point of a collapse template. Primefac (talk) 00:58, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

If you want to point out the text, you could use the tq template. The tq template highlights quoted text in green, and looks like this: (text being quoted). This might be a better alternative to hatted boxes. Blackmane (talk) 01:41, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Primefac and Blackmane. Perhaps now is a good compromise, and I hope I will never have again to do this, but if I have to use quotes in the future I will think at the tq templates. I am sorry there are so many examples, but it is because I have been so many times attacked. I added a summary in the beginning, it seems it was needed. --Launebee (talk) 21:35, 18 September 2017 (UTC) Thanks. --Launebee (talk) 23:11, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

• Noting that the reported user has been blocked for 72 hours for edit warring on the aforementioned article. ansh666 21:07, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

• When a user has been advised repeatedly that he is making false accusations, and yet persists in repeating the accusations, we have a problem. The subject of this complaint hasn't made many contributions, but he has exacted long-term abuse against a good faith editor. Frankly, I don't see a convincing reason why we need to retain this editor as a member of our community. Lepricavark (talk) 01:17, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

@Lepricavark: Is there something I can do to get this going somewhere? Otherwise, the harassment and threats will continue. --Launebee (talk) 08:51, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't know. I suspect people have been put off by the sheer size of your original post, which far exceeds the usual length. I do hope, however, that a couple of admins would be willing to take a look at this and determine what action should be taken. Lepricavark (talk) 11:15, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I put more clearly that there is a summary above. Thanks. --Launebee (talk) 12:06, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

• To attempt to summarize the content: the ancient University of Paris ("The Sorbonne") was dissolved into smaller universities in 1970. Panthéon-Assas University was created as a successor school that included the law faculty. There appear to be multiple content disputes between the two editors discussed on the talk page. The fr:Université_Panthéon-Assas article may be useful as a reference. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:08, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

@power~enwiki: Thanks for your help. Actually, the summary of my message is more that because of a content dispute, XIII created a discussion on antisemitism and then used my answer to claim antisemitism, and has repeated these claims since last December, that he did the same thing with homophobia, that he has been threatening me several times and is constantly aggressive. The content dispute is not relevant here, whatever it is, it has been ten months that I am repetitively wrongfully accused of these things by this user, even though it is obviously absolutely false. (Note also that this user is the principal writer of the French page of that university, so this is not a reference. XIII is precisely blurring the discussion by talking of what happens in the French page that he wrote, or of the content dispute, but all of that is irrelevant. This is a different subject with a talk page, but that talk page is now filled with personal attacks.) I added a summary in the beginning of the request, thanks for the idea. --Launebee (talk) 21:35, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

WP:SOCK and WP:SPA at torrent articles

• kickass2.nz: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Misplaced Pages: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com
• isohunt.tv: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Misplaced Pages: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com
• torrentproject2.com: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Misplaced Pages: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com
• isohunt2.org: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Misplaced Pages: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com

There is an ongoing problem at these articles: IsoHunt, KickassTorrents and Torrent Project‎. Someone keeps on changing the URLs despite being asked not to do it and the articles being semi-protected recently. It's particularly annoying because it is being done by new user accounts which seem to be a WP:SPA for doing this. Help requested here.--♦IanMacM♦ 16:56, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Investigation opened: please see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Marylucygril. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 17:12, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

The pages have also been semiprotected. If there is further disruption related to this, please advise at the SPI. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 18:29, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Still looking but I can tell you that at least one account is cross wiki spamming right now as seen here. We need this link added to the meta blacklist. Beetstra are you around?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 19:01, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

@Berean Hunter: I'm around. Can you give me all domains? --Dirk Beetstra 05:07, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Are these the 4 domains in above tracking templates? --Dirk Beetstra 05:09, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes that's them, Dirk. I'll list the links within the SPI reports in the future per your comments there. Stewards have locked the accounts due to cross-wiki abuse.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 12:53, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

@Berean Hunter: Added to meta. --Dirk Beetstra 13:13, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Open an SPI: A new form of disruption at an article covered by WP:ARBPIA

Mhhossein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) just opened an SPI against two of the three editors who opposed him at Talk:Ali Khamenei. Please see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Icewhiz. He also planned to open an SPI, against the third editor, me, as explained at Oshwah's talkpage. The WP:ARBPIA is rife with conflict and disruption. I consider this to be, a new form of disruption. I request a speedy close of the SPI and a warning to the initiator about this type of behaviour. The Ali Khamenei (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) also needs more eyes and a check for POV, but I am not at ANI to pursue editorial comments about that article. Thank you. Dr. K. 17:29, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

As background - this began by a series of edits by Mhhossein to Ali Khamenei (some may be viewed as perhaps POVish, some were definitely positive), some of which were challeged and during which Mhhossein performed a 1RR vio ( + 1st, 2nd) which he did self-revert upon being warned this was the case . He then removes an-indepth Newsweek piece as "It's just an opinion" which was challenged by several editors, following up with a WP:NEWSORG claim and then claiming Human interest story , discounting other opinions , followed by an attempt to SPI Dr.K. (which failed on technical grounds due to page protection), and then moved on to SPI me (Icewhiz). And this for an in-depth article on the subject in Newsweek. I might not be available on-wiki for the next few days (travelling on vacation, back next Sunday, probably will check in sparsely).Icewhiz (talk) 18:25, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

SPI clerk note: I've declined to "speedy close" the case linked above as I see behaviour worth investigating, which I'm now doing. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 18:44, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

• Comment: An admin please close this nonsense and strange report!!! @Dr.K.: Later on, please be careful before accusing others at ANI. --Mhhossein 11:51, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: not so fast, nothing I've said here or at the now-closed case should be taken as an endorsement of your action. I saw something entirely unrelated that was worth checking, in my own opinion. More shortly. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 15:29, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

So what? it was verified that DarkKing Rayleigh was probably a sock of Delotrooladoo and was blocked. --Mhhossein 17:02, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: So what? it was verified that DarkKing Rayleigh was probably a sock of Delotrooladoo and was blocked. I beg your pardon? And what does that have to do with Icewhiz, an innocent bystander whom you unjustly accused of socking? Is there no recognition, on your part, of the glaring mistakes you made putting this innocent editor through this ordeal? This is disruptive, because it demonstrates that you do not understand the disruption you have caused and you may repeat it in the future. At a minimum, you owe Icewhiz an apology. You owe one to me as well, but I won't hold my breath that you will apologise to me. Dr. K. 00:47, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: Ok. I see you avoid replying to my request that you apologise to Icewhiz for your error in reporting a good-faith innocent editor to SPI. So, here is the effect of your error: Your creation Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Icewhiz was deleted because: G6: SPI filed in error under an innocent name. So I will ask you for the last time: Will you admit you were in error in filing this SPI using Icewhiz's name and apologise to Icewhiz? Dr. K. 15:37, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Related discussions

• I just wish to note that there are now three discussions on AN/I involving the editing of IranianNationalist, Pahlevun and Mhhossein:
  • Complaint by Slatersteven about IranianNationalist
  • Complaints by IranianNationalist about Mhhossein and Pahlevun
  • This complaint by Dr.K. about Mhhossein

This is probably a good indication that this suite of three editors needs to have their contributions more closely examined in relation to WP:NPOV and WP:ARBPIA. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:17, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

I was just thinking the same thing, the same edds on related (by religion) topics.Slatersteven (talk) 20:01, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken: Just a moment, which of my edits was wrong? Can you elaborate on this? I can't understand why Dr.K. is so worried about a sockpeppetry being investigated, this is while there's no name of him in the reprot. Both of the cases opened regarding me are nonsense. --Mhhossein 02:46, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

If I had a specific accusation to make, I would have made it, but what I wrote was "this suite of three editors needs to have their contributions more closely examined". No Wikipedian should object to having their edits looked at if there's an indication there might be problems. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:10, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: I can't understand why Dr.K. is so worried about a sockpeppetry being investigated, this is while there's no name of him in the reprot. Please do not misrepresent my words. In fact, I am not worried at all. To prove this point, I quote what you said to Oshwah: I was trying to report Dr.K. at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations. Thank you again. --Mhhossein talk 06:56, 19 September 2017 (UTC). Wonderful. This is your chance. We are at ANI. Can you explain to everyone here, better still, can you submit your evidence that led you to want to open an SPI against me? Checkusers, SPI clerks, sockhunter admins are all watching for the big reveal with their fingers at the WP:DUCK-block button. I can't wait. Thanks much. Dr. K. 03:34, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Mhhossein - I echo Dr.K.'s request: I would like to see the exact evidence you had supporting your sock puppetry accusations, please. ~Oshwah~ 03:53, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

I never accused Dr.K.. I've already made enough explanations on why I thought sock-puppetry was happening (see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Icewhiz). You see by the admins' comments that I was much right about the report, at least regarding DarkKing Rayleigh. Naturally, Dr.K. falling on the dubious account's side came into mind at the very first step. But later, when I contacted Oshwah, I was leaning toward others and Oshwah knows it well. However, I really wonder why Dr.K. hastily acted against my Sockpuppet investigations which had nothing to do with him in practice. Also, @Oshwah: Had you seen this page before coming to this discussion? I don't think any policy or guideline prohibits me from thinking on the the possibility that a user can be a puppet. FYI, the case of INeverCry who was an admin in Commons (I doubt if he was an admin here, too) and later found to be a Master playing another account whom was admin, too. --Mhhossein 06:17, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

• Beyond My Ken: You're right and I have never had any objections. Tnx. --Mhhossein 06:19, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

• Mhhossein - Accusing me of having any connection with DarkKing Rayleigh was done without a shred of evidence (which you failed to produce in the report, and here). You did this after a content dispute - in which I would say your actions were questionable (calling a serious article in Newsweek a Human Interest Story?!) - and per your own postings to Oshwah's page - you intended to report Dr.K. on the exact same (lack of) grounds - and moved on to me only following technical difficulties (the SPI page was blocked). I'll note that the timing just after MehrdadFR's block (with whom you've been in contact, and who was making similar off base accusations at AE regarding people who disagreed with him, including me) was also odd. Accusing someone of a serious offense, and sockpuppetry is a serious offense, without any evidence (and in this case - an interaction report limited to some 4-6 pages, and totally different editing patterns (he's editing when I'm asleep!)) - could definitely be construed as quite personal in the sense of Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. Whether you were correct or not of any misconduct regarding DarkKing Rayleigh (of which I have no concrete opinion - since I do not know much of this new account - though your original report seems to be shaky) - is completely irrelevant to an accusation linking him to me, or accusing me of acting as a sock puppeteer. Regarding policy - this would seem to be fishing as per WP:SPCU. I don't have much to fear from a checkuser (other than what I see as an attack, and entry of my account name in a log) - though from what I read (and see in some account pages) such checks can also find random connections (e.g. multiple editors editing from the same office /library / lab (which may contain hundreds of people or more) - which could be difficult to disentangle (as opposed to a situation in a house with few people).Icewhiz (talk) 14:30, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

• @Mhhossein: I never accused Dr.K. Remember: This is ANI, not Comedy Central or a forum for alternative facts. Now I have two quotes to help you refresh your memory:

This is your first question to Oshwah: A question Dear Oshwah, how are you? I'm here per your kind offer of help. I was trying to open a Sockpuppet investigations subpage for a user but the page was protected while I tried it for anther user and it allowed me. What's wrong? Tnx. --Mhhossein talk 04:59, 19 September 2017 (UTC).

This is the followup comment to Oshwah: I was trying to report Dr.K. at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations. Thank you again. --Mhhossein talk 06:56, 19 September 2017 (UTC).

So, I ask you again. Please supply the evidence that led you to want to open an SPI against me to the point that you had to enquire about it with an admin.

However, I really wonder why Dr.K. hastily acted against my Sockpuppet investigations which had nothing to do with him in practice. Wonder no more. Acting to prevent SPI abuse against Icewhiz, an established and good-faith editor, from someone with a demonstrable lack of skills for opening SPIs, and who seriously intended to open a fact-free SPI against me, was the least I could do to minimise disruption for a colleague, the project and myself. As for your motives, you only know for sure, but if I had a guess, I would think that you were desperate to win the content dispute at Talk:Ali Khamenei. Dr. K. 15:29, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

• @Mhhossein: having reviewed the report in probably a great deal more detail than the others who have commented here, I agree that the situation makes it look like you filed this report frivolously to try to "win" a content dispute by making trouble for your opponents, but there is also the possibility that you don't understand what sockpuppetry is. As an example: sockpuppetry is one user making several accounts to make it look like there is additional support for their side of a dispute. Sockpuppetry is not when several users in good standing who are regular and long-term contributors to a topic area disagree with something you're trying to do. I don't think that your report was entirely in bad faith: a suspicious account did participate in the discussion, but I didn't see any good reason to suspect that that account was being operated by either of the two users you reported (or attempted to). Sockpuppetry is something we look on very poorly, and accusing someone of sockpuppetry without good evidence is often considered a personal attack, and I'll repeat the advisory that this topic area is under discretionary sanctions. If you find yourself in a similar situation again where you have a disagreement you can't resolve on a talk page, a good next step is dispute resolution. Please do not file any more sockpuppetry investigation requests unless you have very good evidence; if you feel the need to file, feel free to ask myself or one of the other SPI clerks to review your case in advance. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 15:48, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
• @Icewhiz: - I've removed as much of a trace of the SPI being filed under your name as I can without obfuscating the actual report; I think it's very clear from what's left that you were accused in error. The entry in the Checkuser log can't be removed, but it is only visible to users with CU access (not a lot of people) and is considered protected private information. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 15:53, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

As it happens, none of us saw any good reason to run a CU on Icewhiz, so his CU log is currently empty. Yunshui _水 15:45, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: It's very interesting to see the you are accusing me of disruption (without hearing my narration of the content dispute) while it was verified that DarkKing Rayleigh was probably a sock of Delotrooladoo and was blocked. It's even more interesting that you, as an SPI clerk, don't know of "good standing who are regular and long-term contributors to " which found to be committing sock-puppetry. Now my suggestions for you, next time, before doing such basic level preaches see the user's contributions, articles and awards. By the way, please see WP:AGF. --Mhhossein 17:01, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Dr.K.:Just stop victim playing and making personal attacks, you have nothing to do with this discussion. --Mhhossein 17:06, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

You made two baseless sockpuppeting accusations, and the third that actually existed was identified and deal with by Ivanvector himself. I think you've exhausted your good faith allowance for the time being. It doesn't matter if an editor in good standing had sockpuppeted, you don't go around casting aspersions as to the conduct of other editors with zero connecting evidence, save for that they all appeared on the same page, on the basis of somebody else did it too. Mr rnddude (talk) 17:19, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: stop denying that you requested a sockpuppetry investigation of Dr.K. on Oshwah's talk page. You did, we can all see it. My suggestion above that maybe you don't understand exactly what sockpuppetry is was me assuming good faith. Your response that you reported these two users because some other completely unrelated user operated sockpuppets in the past is explicitly a bad-faith argument: you are casting WP:ASPERSIONS based on no relevant evidence at all, and it's an equally specious argument to call these users sockpuppets because you were improperly accused in another entirely unrelated case. I haven't commented on the content dispute and don't intend to, it is entirely irrelevant to the sockpuppetry investigation, which is concluded. You may interpret this as a warning: further commentary in defense of this sockpuppetry investigation and/or regarding the motivations of users in this thread is very likely to be taken as a personal attack. I'll reply to your question on my talk page shortly. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 17:47, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: It's of not importance whether you believe in what I say. See my comments at Oshwah's talk page. At first I though DR.K. could be a part of the puppetry, later, after Oshwah asked for concrete evidences and looked deeper into the edits, I realized that the two others are much more involved. Regarding "You may interpret...", do as you wish, my sentences are what I said. --Mhhossein 17:55, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: ...later, after Oshwah asked for concrete evidences and looked deeper into the edits, I realized that the two others are much more involved. No problem. I will settle for whatever little involvement in sockpuppetry that you think I had. Can you specify that little bit of socking you think I did? Dr. K. 03:36, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: No reply here either. Once more, you said that ...the two others are much more involved. That implies that I was "involved" but to a "much lesser degree". Can you describe my small involvement? On the other hand, if you think I had no involvement at all, what prevents you from acknowledging that and apologising to me? Basic intellectual honesty requires that you provide an answer to this simple question Mhhossein. Dr. K. 15:44, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Mr rnddude: This is one of the reasons I brought this user at ANI. Mhhossein's inability to admit any fault even for the most obvious of his/her transgressions, while at the same time personally attacking the editors he disagrees with, has manifested itself multiple times at Talk:Ali Khamenei, but without repercussions to himself. However, at ANI, his disruption is under scrutiny by the wider community. That gives me a certain sense of comfort. His refusal to get the point of his disruption clearly manifests itself by his personal comments directed against Ivanvector. By the way, I find Ivanvector's analysis of Mhhossein's actions, consummately professional and even-handed, and I thank him for that. I will not reply to Mhhossein's diatribe directed at me, just above, since it is as transparently fact-free as his botched SPIs. Dr. K. 17:50, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Mhhossein has resorted to trolling on the talkpage of the blocked sock

• Mhhossein gives trolling reply to my ANI notice on the page of the blocked sock: Thanks for informing him, however he's unfortunately blocked because of "the disruption caused by Mhhossein". --Mhhossein talk 04:38, 21 September 2017 (UTC) I had given the ANI notice to the sock, before there was an SPI about his/her socking. Dr. K. 06:00, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
• Now, Mhhossein has resorted to edit-warring adding back the trolling. Dr. K. 06:30, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
• Also misused rollback reverting my edit. Dr. K. 06:32, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
• Reverted again. Dr. K. 06:38, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

As I said, "This is my right to have this . This message is meant as a sort of response against your accusations". --Mhhossein 06:48, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

You go WP:GRAVEDANCING on the talkpage of a blocked sock leaving a trolling message and you expect me to reply to it? Dr. K. 06:53, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Your repetitive accusing me with WP:trolling is deemed as personal attack. Misplaced Pages is not a battle field. You are wasting the time of every one involved in this topic. Btw, the message was to you, not to the blocked user. --Mhhossein 06:57, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

ANI is the place to discuss your disruption. You try to avoid this noticeboard and you attempt trolling messages at the talkpage of a blocked sock. Let's wait for the admins to handle your disruption. Dr. K. 07:01, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

• Look, I really don't want to spoil a clean block log over this, but I'm getting tired of seeing new messages here.

@Mhhossein: above, I asked you (warned you, actually) not to comment on this sockpuppetry issue anymore or cast aspersions about editors here. I realize that my wording "in this thread" may be open to interpretation. However, going to the talk page of the blocked sockpuppet to reply to Dr.K.'s administrative note (a note which is required by policy when posting here) with a complaint about this thread is clearly trolling where it's not grave-dancing.

@Dr.K.: I want to assume good faith and you are entitled to ask for an explanation, but 1) Mhhossein had already given one (not a great one, admittedly) and 2) your continued questioning of him here and on their talk page flies directly in the face of my warning to Mhhossein not to comment on the sockpuppetry issue any further. You're not trying to bait them, are you?

To both of you: I'd like to ask you both to drop this back-and-forth and get back to editing articles. There is only going to be something here worth further administrative action if this continues, and I don't see there being anything to gain from such an outcome. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 19:03, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: I replied, as you saw, to his comments as I saw them. Obviously, I did not connect my enquiries to him to your warning about not commenting further on the SPI, because I considered an apology to Icewhiz or to myself to be a constructive step that would indicate this editor's understanding of the error he committed. If your interpretation of the warning to him, includes prohibition of acknowledging any errors he made in the comments on this thread, perhaps you should have made this more clear, because it was not clear to me at all. In that sense, raising a baiting possibility on my part is unfair, because I did not interpret your warning so strictly. In fact, I skimmed through it, and did not read it in depth. Further, if this discussion has become a blocking minefield for good-faith attempts at further resolution, I would suggest you close it. I also find your comment about "getting back to editing articles", to be very unfair and it also indicates that you are not clear about what motivates content creators; such prompts at ANI simply don't cut it as motivation. But I will leave it at that. Dr. K. 21:06, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Violation of topic ban by User:Johnvr4

At , , and Johnvr4 has violated his topic ban - to avoid editing subjects connected to weapons and Japan, broadly construed - twice within about 24 hours of its imposition. He also appears to have said at his talk page that he intends to continue editing irrespective of the topic ban . Buckshot06 (talk) 01:05, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Based on his airing of woes at , the last thing he should be doing right now is editing Misplaced Pages. Support an indef block. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:21, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Support indef block, as clearly WP:NOTHERE. -- RoySmith (talk) 01:34, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Blocked for six months. When someone's been here for 5½ years, it's rather a stretch to say that he's NOTHERE. Since all his previous blocks, put together, add up to ten days and change, going straight to an indef block is extreme, and I don't think this is an extreme situation that needs an extreme response. Since he's allowed to appeal in six months, I figured I'd just do a block for that long; he may appeal it as soon as the block expires. Nyttend (talk) 02:41, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

To be fair to him, even though I have no reason to be since he openly lambasted me for his own actions, an appeal will certainly fail if he remains blocked the entire duration of his topic ban. Regards, — Moe Epsilon 16:37, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

That escalated quickly. I was going to propose leniency based on having just been kicked in the face by Hurricane Irma, but when someone's been here 5½ years, it's rather a stretch to say they don't know how a topic ban works, especially when another admin made such an effort to explain it and they posted this diatribe in response to a warning to stop violating it. Citing WP:IAR as a justification for ban evasion is a new one for me. I don't know the history here but in the interest of the leniency I started talking about, can I propose significantly shortening this block (say, 2 weeks?) since it's a first for evasion, with the topic ban timer reset from the end of the block? Ivanvector (/_Edits) 18:07, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

I can appreciate your motivation, Ivanvector, but the messages I saw posted give great pause to endorse any shortening of the block period. Assuming good faith, someone with this editor's RL challenges probably shouldn't be concerning themselves with the project. Should they be able to assemble some reasonable request I might be persuaded to reconsider. Tiderolls 18:42, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

"Evasion" really isn't the right word, I think; "ban evasion" to me means getting around a ban, not outright rejecting it and editing as if it didn't exist. IAR really is okay for certain ban-ignoring or -evading situations, e.g. if you're I-banned from someone who starts replacing the Main Page with obscenities, it's perfectly fine to leave a note at WP:BN requesting emergency desysop for the obviously compromised account. However, saying "I won't pay attention to this ban because it's intended to prevent me from improving Misplaced Pages" is quite different, since there's already consensus that your edits aren't an improvement. If this editor were somehow unaware of the ban or unaware that he was violating it, a short block would be appropriate after a warning, but since he's outright said that he's going to ignore it, we're in a different situation here. Bans are placed when we think you can't contribute positively in some manner but you shouldn't be blocked because you can still contribute overall, and if you demonstrate that the ban isn't preventing disruption, it's time to escalate to the next level of preventiveness. Nyttend (talk) 00:07, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

I agree with you, mostly. My only concern as a disinterested observer to this drama is that it appears that Johnvr4 is in exceptionally reasonable circumstances to be blowing off steam, for which we usually grant some latitude so long as no disruption is occurring, and I don't think it was outside of his diatribe (and before he was warned). Yeah, he swore up and down that he's definitely not going to respect the ban, but we didn't really give him a chance. I guess Tide rolls makes a good point: if Johnvr4 comes back after some reasonable time and/or after their probably very serious real-life concerns are under control and makes a reasonable unblock request, we can talk about it then. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 15:32, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't be opposed to a reasonable unblock request. Nyttend (talk) 00:13, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Repeated large deletion, with sockpuppetry

Joeyburton489, with a history of 2 edits, deleted 3,075 bytes from Cognate, with the edit comment

There is no cognates within the same language. Cognates are words derived from different languages.

CodeCat reverted the change within an hour. Then Leonardomicheli297 (1 edit) repeated the deletion, with the identical change comment.

A sockpuppeteer is unlikely to engage in civil discussion. I am going to inform the user on both of these talk pages, but beyond that I request admin assistance here.--Thnidu (talk) 03:40, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

The quacking is strong with these ones. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:06, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Johnsondrake2607 is probably the same editor too - see their restoration of Joeyburton489's reverted edit on Doublet (linguistics). Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:08, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

The three accounts were created closely together in time:

• Joeyburton489 - 18:37 19 September - 2 minutes before making their first edit, to Cognate
• Leonardomicheli - 19:53 19 September - 2 minutes before restoring Jayburton489's edit to Cognate
• Johnsondrake2607 - 22:23 19 September - 1 minute before restoring Joeyburton489's edit to Doublet (linguistics)

Clearly sockpuppets created specifically for the purpose of restoring reverted edits. Can we get some blocks here, or do I really need to file an SPI for such an obvious and trivial case? (SPI being prety badly backed up). I don't think a CU is needed, given that my ears are bleeding from the quacking. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:41, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, it's pretty suspicious. Just the same, I can think of a sort of believable explanation for it. I asked Joey on his talk page for his own explanation. If someone else wants to block, that's fine, but I guess I'd like to hear what Joey says before I do it. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:56, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

• Just noting that the section in question directly contradicts the second sentence of the article's lede and none of its sources employ the term "cognate". – Uanfala 12:45, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
• Well, there hasn't been any response yet to my question on Joey's talk page. I didn't want to hand them any excuses, but my thinking was that this could be a class project of some sort. This might explain why a few new users would appear out of nowhere. It wouldn't excuse the edit warring, of course. I guess someone can ping me if the disruption continues. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 06:06, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

• I understand your caution, but I think it's highly unlikely to be a class, given the timing of the creation of the accounts. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:58, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Comment: On doublet (linguistics),we see Salamanderman4197, Justjared2168 ‎ Tommypinket3987‎ Jojimans347 ‎ Johnnybling7431, and the ever-popular Johnsondrake2607. Pretty clear pattern here. Anmccaff (talk) 14:10, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

• Johnsonstewart46821 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• SPI case filed.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 15:15, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Possible legal threat by Franz Lidz

• FranzLidz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Franz Lidz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

In this edit, this one, and this edit, a person claiming to be the subject of a BLP said, "The Talk page fantasizing and the finger-pointing templates that blanket both pages of my entry are inappropriate, unprofessional, malicious and, in the opinion of PS&E counsel, potentially libelous. And because the pages are on public display, they impugn my professional reputation". This seems like a legal threat to me. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:29, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

• Yes, that's a legal threat, but I think he has a point regarding his BLP. I'll take a look. (see WP:DOLT) Ivanvector (/_Edits) 18:35, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: Thank you. It seems the issues are comments by users on the talk page rather than in the BLP, but your review would be appreciated. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:37, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

This is Franz Lidz. As I just wrote on the Talk page to my entry, I am emphatically not making a legal threat. I am merely underscoring the recklessness of the edits on the Talk page. I am also requesting that the entry and its Talk page be blanked, per the procedure spelled out elsewhere on this website.50.201.240.110 (talk) 18:48, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

As one of the editors whose comments on the talk page has been blanked, I want to make it clear that I was not accusing Mr. Lidz of any collusion with the paid editing ring, and I think anyone who actually reads my comments in the context which they were posted can see that. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:09, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

I was involved in that discussion as well, and it is abundantly clear that nobody was accusing Lidz of anything. The existence of the sockfarm which edited Franz Lidz and added references to his work in many articles is indisputable, but noone at any time has said or implied that Lidz was a party to it - the accusations of responsibility have all been towards his publisher(s) or PR people connected to the publishers. No one was being reckless, there is clear evidence of the sockfarm's actions, including an admission from one of the participating editors, therefore Lidz (if that is Lidz - until he confirms with OTRS we have no way of being sure) is incorrect in claiming "recklessness". Also, the blanking of the comments is a travesty unwarranted, and should be undone. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:23, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

BTW, why are any of these actions (blanking of talk page comments, AFDing based on subject's desire for deletion) being taken before there's even been an identification to OTRS? Or am I mistaken and his identity has been confirmed? Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:31, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

I agree with BMK; unless there's been an OTRS confirmation of identity, I think we're jumping the gun on the AfD. I also agree that the discussion that got blanked didn't impugn Lidz personally or professionally, though it suggested (based on what I understand to be pretty clear behavioral evidence) that somebody was engaged in conduct that appeared promotional on our page about Lidz. And, contrary to what the IP above says about legal threats, it was a legal threat. I'm not sure it's to the level of a NLT block, but it's definitely disruptive, and I have no doubt it was made to chill participation. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 23:39, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Regarding confirmation of identity, it's a private matter that's being handled offline. As for the blanked section, I agree there was no bright-line misconduct in the section, but BLP concerns shouldn't be brushed aside, and on the balance I felt that courtesy blanking the section was a harmless way to address the editor's concern. If anyone really wants to read what was there it's available in the history. And as for the statement being a legal threat: if it was, it was retracted, so the issue is moot. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 00:21, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Ivanvector: I would never suggest brushing aside a legitimate BLP concern, but I think it was pretty clear that this was being badly misread by the person claiming to be Lidz, most probably based on the "journalism professor"'s characterization of the discussion to them. Regarding the identification of the account and IP as Lidz, if it turns out that they cannot identify themselves to the satisfaction of OTRS, I would suggest that the discussion be un-blanked. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:32, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

I'd feel much more comfortable with the trusted, trained volunteers who staff OTRS handling identity verification than it being a "private matter" and "handled offline". This is one of the reasons OTRS was created, so we weren't handling potentially private information on an ad hoc basis. Honestly, I'm surprised to hear this suggestion that BLP concerns are being brushed aside: they're certainly not. As to the retraction of the threat: that may be satisfactory from a NLT perspective, but it does not remove the harm done by the editor claiming to be Lidz in making a legal threat deliberately to stifle legitimate discussion about unidentified individuals' promotional activity on his Misplaced Pages biography. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 05:28, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

In fact I did mean to go through OTRS or send instructions to the editor, except I couldn't figure out from the OTRS pages what to tell them to do. Instead I emailed Arbcom, which I suppose isn't much removed from screaming into the void, but that is what I meant by "being handled offline"; I wasn't intending to provide further details. Arbcom hasn't responded; if someone more familiar with OTRS would like to take over that aspect of this whole thing, please do. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 19:58, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

• Not a legal threat - per Misplaced Pages:No legal threats#Defamation A discussion as to whether material is libelous is not a legal threat. See also: WP:LIBEL. Recommended course of action is an email to: info-en-q@wikipedia.org. - Ryk72 23:27, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

  The "discussion" of libel – which was decidedly more than a simple discussion, as lawyers have already been consulted:

  The Talk page fantasizing and the finger-pointing templates that blanket both pages of my entry are inappropriate, unprofessional, malicious and, in the opinion of PS&E counsel, potentially libelous. And because the pages are on public display, they impugn my professional reputation ... Misplaced Pages's bylaws state that it is acceptable to blank an article for libel or privacy reasons as an emergency measure, as described in the policy on biographies of living persons.

  – is only one issue. Steps are being taken on the basis of the account User:FranzLidz being the actual real life Franz Lidz, so identification is also required, since there's a non-zero possibility that the "journalism professor" who got so strangely upset about the Franz Lidz article being edited and the user "FranzLidz" are the same person. I'm pinging @Mailer Diablo: and @Sphilbrick:, two editors whose names I am familiar with who are listed as OTRS members to see if they have anything to add to this discussion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:38, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Still not a legal threat. A legal threat (linked at WP:NLT) is a statement by a party that it intends to take legal action on another party, generally accompanied by a demand that the other party take an action demanded by the first party or refrain from taking or continuing actions objected to by the demanding party. That is "(If you do not do X,) I intend to take legal action"; not "I asked my lawyer and they think it's potentially libelous". I realise that this seems like splitting hairs, but it's an important distinction. And, while speculation on the identities of editors is profoundly uninteresting, I am pleased that Sphilbrick is looking into it. - Ryk72 00:34, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Just because it's not a legal threat that rises to the level of a NLT block does not render it non-disruptive. Going on a website and making it clear you have legal counsel investigating matters published on that website has a distinct chilling effect—no matter how preposterous an actual lawsuit might be, as it would be in this case. And, frankly, this is why people make these statements: to silence speech they dislike and to coerce speech of which they approve. The object of the threat made on the talk page was precisely this. We're not talking about someone unsophisticated here, either. This sort of conduct honestly should draw a block. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 05:07, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Exactly right, and although WP:NLT doesn't say so explicitly (but should) it de facto recognizes "chilling effect" as one oif the primary reasons for disallowing legal threats when it says that "Repeats of legal threats on the user's talk page have limited scope for disruption or chilling effect", implying that legal threats elsewhere have a broader scope for disruption and chilling effect. (The policy needs some disambiguation.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:16, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

I am looking in to it.--S Philbrick(Talk) 00:04, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Identify confirmation I can confirm that OTRS is in receipt of an email from Franz Lidz and I have confirmed his identity.--S Philbrick(Talk) 00:41, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Just FYI, it won't surprise anyone that OTRS agents are not permitted to reveal the contents of email sent to OTRS, but it is also true that we cannot even confirm the existence of such an email in many cases. When someone sends a permission statement into permissions, I believe it is okay to acknowledge the existence of the email (although not the contents beyond confirmation that an acceptable license has or has not been provided). I will make the argument that someone writing in to confirm their identity to info EN implicitly expects that this fact can be reported elsewhere, but until I get confirmation from other OTRS admin's that this should be an exception to the normal rule for emails to info EN, we require explicit permission from the subject before even acknowledging the existence of an email. That has happened in this case. --S Philbrick(Talk) 00:48, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Just to explore this a bit, if identity is confirmed, but permission to make it public is withheld, do we still entertain changes in articles, etc. at the request of the confirmed editor? It would seem that we shouldn't, as only the OTRS team member would be aware, or the admin they notify to make article deletion, and the community would not be able to participate in those discussions, not knowing that the identity has been confirmed. It would seem to me that part of the "cost" of having one's objections seriously considered is to have the account identity publicly confirmed, since one can simply use a "throw-away" account to do so, at not breach of privacy to the subject. Not an issue here, obviously, but it would be good to know for the future. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:26, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

I have filed an SPI in order to determine if User:FranzLidz used the three IP addresses (same person) to comment on Talk:Franz Lidz before they created the FranzLidz account. The SPI was filed before I saw Sphilbrick's confirmation above, but does not rest on the question of whether FranzLidz' is or is not Franz Lidz. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:21, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

In what I feel is the best interest of Misplaced Pages, I am withdrawing the SPI. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:17, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Blanking sockmaster's userpage allowed?

Regarding this incident after I blanked the userpage of a sockmaster who has been apparently inactive for seven years. My understanding was that such accounts were de facto community banned and such actions were allowed. Or am I mistaken? ☆ Bri (talk) 14:10, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Does the user page violate any Misplaced Pages policy? I'm asking because I saw no violation. I'd say it's wise not to mess with the user pages of others without some pressing reason (BLP vio, COPYVIO, etc.) Tiderolls 14:16, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Now I'm super confused because since I posted, an admin has done the same kind of blanking for the same reason on an unrelated userpage here. So apparently it is allowed? ☆ Bri (talk) 14:43, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

It isn't always disallowed. But whether it should be done or not is a matter of circumstance. The page you blanked hadn't been edited in over two years; if it has sat for that long without harming anyone, then there's no reason to blank it now. Such actions might not be forbidden, but they shouldn't be done without reason. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:51, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm with Writ Keeper on this. The question shoul never be if you could; it is always if you should. Don't think about what you're allowed to do. Think about what you need to do, and if it serves any purpose. A two-year old unused talk page is doing no harm. --Jayron32 15:24, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

• I know this might be an odd thing to say but IMHO if the user contributed before they socked etc then it should be kept, If they're a prolific sock who never really contributed at all here then the page should be blanked but as Writ Keeper says it's all circumstance really. –Davey2010 15:09, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

It's always seemed to be the general practice to replace the content with the SPI banner, so that's what I do. If we want a ruling on this, probably Bearian knows best. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:17, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant Berean Hunter. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:47, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

That's always seemed to me to be the general practice for sock blocks too, though it's often avoided (per WP:DENY) for trolls who seem to be trying to maximize their recognised sock count. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:32, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) To me it depends on the contents of the page. I don't normally blank a sockmaster's page unless it contains material I would blank anyway, but I do add a {{sockmaster}} notice to the very top with some details. Sockmasters aren't automatically banned, only repeat offenders end up in a de facto ban situation because nobody would unblock them, and rarely the community actively bans a very disruptive user. Sockpuppets, on the other hand: I consider them to be violating policy from the moment they create their accounts, and so I regularly blank their userpages and replace with a {{sockpuppet}} notice. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 15:19, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
• I'm in the 'leave things alone unless there's a problem' camp. But taking issue with your original statement, the account is not blocked (and I may be missing something) - you appear to be suggesting that an account that is inactive for seven years becomes community banned. I don't think so. -- zzuuzz 15:25, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
• I undid the blanking. Partly because I'd prefer it not blanked, but largely because the blanking was completely unexplained. If you're going to do this or similar, the least you can do is add an edit comment explaining why you're doing it William M. Connolley (talk) 16:59, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
• @William M. Connolley: it's part of the Administrator instructions at WP:SOCKTAG.
  • Tag the sockmaster's user page:
  • If confirmed by CheckUser, on the sockmaster's user page, replace all content with {{sockpuppeteer|blocked|checked=yes|spipage=CASENAME}}
  • If not confirmed by CheckUser, on the sockmaster's user page, replace all content with {{sockpuppeteer|blocked|spipage=CASENAME}} if the user has been indefinitely blocked. Do not make any change if the user has only been blocked for a limited amount of time.
• Doug Weller talk 17:05, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

That's well and good but Bri is not an administrator so... --Tarage (talk) 18:21, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Errrm, where's the bit that says "do not explain yourself in the edit comments?" If there isn't such a thing, I don't understand how your comment answers my point William M. Connolley (talk) 19:47, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes I should have made a clear edit summary. Actually I thought this editor's story was well enough known that it would be understood w/o comment. But I'm wary of a determination that non-admins can't do documented cleanup that was written for admins. We have few enough to go around as it is without reserving routine clerking to them. Also WP:NOBIGDEAL and all that. ☆ Bri (talk) 22:13, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

• I'm with Writ Keeper, Davey, and Jayron. Childofmidnight, for all his flaws later on, has given us an immense amount of content, some of it very good (the stuff he wrote with me and Kelapstick, haha--he never learned how to do citation templates). I feel he deserves a user page. The other user, not so much. Doug, I didn't know about that SOCKTAG rule--I do know that frequently we actually don't tag them, to deny recognition, for instance, or to avoid the (related) Streisand effect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drmies (talk • contribs) 18:26, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
  • True, but I don't think that's written down. We could still blank but not tag I presume. Doug Weller talk 20:51, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
    • So glad I am no longer an admin. Busy and stressed IRL. Bearian (talk) 19:40, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Hillbillyholiday

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3AHillbillyholiday&type=revision&diff=801754061&oldid=801750293 (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 17:19, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

@Flyer22 Reborn: (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 17:20, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

At this point I'd be fine switching my block to an indef. This is ridiculous to be blunt. And the threat of socking is adding to it. RickinBaltimore (talk) 17:38, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't read that as a threat to sock, but as a complaint that he's being accused of socking on flimsy evidence. We typically allow blocked users to vent on their talkpage to a limited extent provided it doesn't descend into disruption. If he starts making nasty attacks rather than just general venting, or if he's actually caught socking rather than just talking about it, then by all means extend it to indef, but expecting people to be perfectly polite when (as they see it) Misplaced Pages has punished them for trying to comply with policy would be unrealistic. ‑ Iridescent 17:44, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

What do you think this sentence means? Well, Rick, I am going to cock a snoot at both "restriction" and "block" per the following policies: Ignore all rules and WP:Anyone can edit. AlexEng 18:07, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

"I don't agree with my block and I'm going to complain about it". Admins aren't the Misplaced Pages Thought Police; we sanction editors on the grounds of what they do, not on the grounds of what they might hypothetically do. If he's actually socking (which is perfectly possible) then you should have no problem finding some evidence of it. ‑ Iridescent 18:13, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

While I agree in regards to the "socking" thing that we'll handle it if it actually happens, HBH has said several times that they intend to ignore the restriction, and in less than a month has proceeded to do just that three times now, even after a warning and then a week's block. I think that in itself merits consideration as to whether they ought to return to editing without agreeing to abide by the restriction. Otherwise, in a little over a month, I suspect we'll be right back here again. Seraphimblade 18:21, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

(ec) I was getting ready to say that Seraphimblade. It's a blatant WP:IDHT on his part with regards to the restriction placed on his editing. I gave a month to hopefully encourage him to stop, drop the stick over this and move on, but he's not doing it. If there is sufficient enough demand to do so, an indef would be warranted. RickinBaltimore (talk) 18:23, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

@Iridescent: I'm not asking for a sanction. I'm disputing the dubious claim that he has not broadcasted his intent to violate the block and the editing restriction. If/when he socks, I'll approach SPI asking for a sanction. AlexEng 21:16, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

I strongly suggest you look at the main reverter at Manny Pacquaio by the way - HH is far from the worst offender. By the way, I have disagreed with HH in the past, but the case at hand I think is not quite as clear-cut as some might think. Collect (talk) 19:56, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

@Collect: You do realize that HBH is under an editing restriction, right? It doesn't get any more clear-cut than that. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 19:59, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

And that does not obviate the issue on the BLP where one editor seems intent on violating WP:BLP and WP:CONSENSUS which I regard as something which should be of interest. If you do not wish to even note BLP issues, that is fine. Most Misplaced Pages editors seem oblivious. Cheers. And some folks might consider the use of an IP sock as strongly verging on vandalism, but I guess IP edits which just happen to be exact duplicates of another person's edits are not to be questioned. Collect (talk) 20:05, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

@Collect: That's actually exactly what it does. You didn't read it, otherwise you would have seen the part where his restriction takes precedence over any BLP violation unless it is obvious vandalism. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 20:12, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, and pure coincidence that the IP geo-locates to the Philippines. I didn't realise it was ok to support accusations of illegal activity with YouTube clips of ESPN's "Teddy Atlas show", or from sources such as "KDramaStars", the personal blog of Gideon Lasco MD, or FightHype TV. But, hey, maybe they're all perfectly acceptable. Also now sure why "Mayweather vs. Pacquiao lawsuit" and "Post Mayweather fight injury" are subsections beneath "Steroid allegations". But then I don't live in the Philippines, Or have any financial interest in boxing. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:25, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

• Collect, I looked at the BLPN section, at the archived ANI section, and on the talk page, and try as I might I can't find any argument to support you and remove that content again. Unfortunately then, since we don't even remotely have a consensus on the BLP-violating quality of the material, and the sourcing being not ridiculously wrong or stupid, we are stuck with the content still in there, because--and I don't like this at all--in this edit some IP editor (whose other work is borderline incompetent/disruptive) restored it without explanation. Perhaps another admin, more roguish than me, thinks that disruptive enough to revert, but Samsara protected it eight minutes later, which is time enough for us to consider that protection a sort of a stamp of approval. If you had more supporters in either of those three discussions than the now-blocked editor and a sock I might have acted. Sorry. Drmies (talk) 20:33, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

  • In reply to that - we've had an unresolved bug in mediawiki for a while, whereby after a temporarily elevated protection expires, the previous protection is not automatically reinstated, even if of duration beyond the later protection's expiry. So previously active longer protections must be manually restored. The protection carried out on Manny Pacquiao is such a procedural restoration of a previous protection state and should not be seen in relation to any recent conflict at the article - the original indef semi protection stems from 2010. (The technical limitation is also explained here, in a section which - full disclosure - I wrote. The overall document was co-written with two other admins.) Thank you. Samsara 12:48, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

  • Martin, the BLPN discussion is still open. Had you made a case there, in a bit more detail, well... Drmies (talk) 20:34, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
    • Had I made one... ? So my contribution here is just a waste of everyone's time? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:38, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
      • Maybe your time--not mine. Had you made that contribution elsewhere, in a bit more detail (since I don't know exactly what you're pointing at), this might have gone differently earlier already. Here, we're discussing Hillbillyholiday. I'm glad you're picking up the torch for them and if you plant it on the talk page, well... Drmies (talk) 20:41, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
        • I'm only here because HBH's Talk page is on my watch list and I couldn't see any kind of explanation here as to why he may have been so keen to keep removing that article section. I have no interest in that article, or that particular subject matter. I was just suggesting that that section looked a bit borderline or suspect. If all we're doing is counting reverts, then obviously that's irrelevant. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:46, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
          • Martinevans123, you have said more in that one sentence above than I can find on the talk page. OK, maybe that's an exaggeration, but come on--have a close look at it, comment and point out the flaws, evaluate the sources: you are good at this and apparently you're neutral. I'd appreciate it. I didn't see the obvious BLP vio in the quick look that I took, or I might have done something. Drmies (talk) 23:15, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Note that all those proposing nugatory material on Pacquaio seem to be Philippine. I consider such material as

In spite of multiple knockdowns and near stoppages, since the allegations Pacquiao has yet to score a knockout inside the ring ,

Pacquiao's trainer Freddie Roach has had suspicion of Pacquiao's former strength and conditioning coach Alex Ariza. Roach stated that Ariza had been giving Pacquiao "special drinks" without his permission. Roach also stated "One of the reasons I don't work with him anymore is he's a little shady. He used to give Manny a drink before workouts, and I asked him what was in the drink and he would never tell me. I told him I need to know what was in the drinks because you're giving it to my fighter.",

Well respected boxing aficionado Teddy Atlas has been of the belief that Pacquiao has been on steroids in the past based on what he sees with his eyes. saying the power is the last thing to go in a fighter, and Manny doesn't have his anymore. and the like.

I suspect that third person accusations of steroid use are generally considered a BLP issue, but your mileage may vary.

currently Pacquiao is facing a lawsuit of 5 million dollars by two fans for failing to disclose the shoulder injury in the lead up to his bout with Floyd Mayweather, Jr.

strikes me as something for which a consensus for inclusion should be required.

Pacquiao's promoter Bob Arum stated that Pacquiao suffered the injury back in 2008 causing even more confusion as Pacquiao just stated that he suffered the injury during the fight now that he is facing lawsuits also appears problematic.

The fact is that those insisting on this material have steadfastly refused to start any RfC on it, and instead have a bunch of Filipino IPs doing reverts. I rather think this is sufficient grounds for likely checking out the main proponents of this material in the BLP, in fact. Consider those statements, and ask whether they are of a nature which requires strong sourcing compliant in all respects with WP:BLP and WP:CONSENSUS and whether an editor who refuses to even start an RfC is acting in good faith. Merci. Collect (talk) 00:16, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Agree 100%. Many thanks, User:Collect. Martinevans123 (talk) 06:56, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Basing articles on a person's Linkedin / Twitter accounts

THis article Jen Royle disclosing a person's birth date and other personal details based on her Linkedin / Twitter account. Where do we stand on this? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:47, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

WP:SELFPUB GMG 17:48, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Have nominated for delete

The other question is where do we stand on WP:OUTING? Is adding details about a person based on their personal linkedin, FB, and twitter account outing?

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:55, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm... not sure outing applies unless you're talking about an editor. As a general rule, the information is okay if it is otherwise public information on a moderately public figure, like something a reporter posted on their public social media. This information is sometimes removed by request as a courtesy, but if they've put it out there themselves, it's only a courtesy, and not an outright privacy issue. GMG 18:03, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

I guess I would add that the key to selfpub there is that it needs to be mundane personal details, the kind for which self published material would be a (and perhaps the only in many cases) reliable source. GMG 18:06, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I would say no. They published it (presumably) on the selfpub site, thus it's not private info. We shouldn't be repeating it (WP:RS) but it's not outing. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 18:27, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

We shouldn't be repeating it That's not quite right. If the material is sufficiently mundane so as to fall under SELFPUB, then the self published source can be treated as a primary source, in accordance with guidance at WP:PRIMARY. GMG 18:50, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Per Misplaced Pages:Harassment#Posting_of_personal_information we say "Posting... "personal information" is harassment, unless that person has voluntarily posted his or her own information, or links to such information, on Misplaced Pages... This applies to the personal information of both editors and non-editors." From what I understand we only allow personal information based on high quality sources not a subjects's personal accounts. If someone was to create an article about a Wikipedian based on their FB, Twitter, and Linkedin details that would definitely be outing and I guess the question is do we want to apply this standard to none editors? If we do not want to apply this standard to none editors than we need to remove "This applies to the personal information of both editors and non-editors." from the outing policy. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:26, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

• An article on a Wikipedian based on (nothing but) LinkedIn etc. will be speedily deleted--either as A7 or as a BLP/outing violation. PS Doc, it's time wrote you up... Drmies (talk) 18:33, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
  • User:Drmies not sure to what you refer? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:26, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
    • Well, your cigar lounge seems to be taking off and might pass the GNG... Drmies (talk) 20:15, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
      • It was an interesting link, a cigar lounge that tries to look upscale, but has staff, or at least web site developers, that can't spell "Andalusian" right, and believe that Davidoff is located in Geneva, NY, probably never even having heard of Switzerland. - Tom | Thomas.W 20:29, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
        • Ah certainly. Yes and if I add to my twitter account that I own it than that will make it legit right :-) Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:49, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Is there some reason the AfD is not sufficient and we need an AN/I as well? This has the appearance of heavy-handedness.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:43, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

The harassment policy does not apply to subjects of biographies. It cannot, because as written it prohibits any personal info of anyone unless they post it on Misplaced Pages first. Which would mean most personal life sections and basic biographical info. This has been pointed out to the people who have been arguing over it for ages, suffice to say ignore that part of the policy if the person is the subject of an article. Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:56, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks User:Only in death I have tagged that line in the OUTING policy as dubious and will ignore going forwards. Will trim personal links based on them simply not being reliable instead. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:49, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

DJ: Just to be clear, as noted above, social media is considered reliable for mundane personal details as a primary source when they meet WP:SELFPUB and are treated in accordance with WP:PRIMARY. I don't mean to belabor the point, but if you get a mind to start removing anything that cites social media for a birthday or an alma mater you're gonna have a bad time. GMG 21:08, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Okay thanks. I would argue that the article was "primarily on such sources" however. Stuff like "She is single" supposedly based on a tweet still makes me a little uncomfortable. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:29, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

primarily on such sources Yes, but that's expressly forbidden by WP:PRIMARY, thus the PRIMARY compliance caveat. GMG 21:52, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

I think it's worth pointing out that the statement "both editors and non-editors" in WP: Outing is a wikilink to WP: HNE, which in turn says "Content and sourcing that comply with the biographies of living persons policy do not violate this policy;" --Kyohyi (talk) 21:12, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

And that policy says "dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object". I do not feel a single tweet counts as widely published or a reasonable assumption that the subject does not object. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:39, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

If the Tweet is from the subject, then I disagree. I think that "widely" only applies to "published by reliable sources", and not to "by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object." If a person tweets their birthday, they've put it out onto the Internets with tacit permission to republish, and so it should be acceptable to use on Misplaced Pages. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:13, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

@Doc James: if a person uses their verified Twitter account to tweet their birthday, is it acceptable for Misplaced Pages to use it? Some of your comments above imply that you do not agree, but it is not clear why. To me at any rate. MPS1992 (talk) 19:42, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes. It is acceptable, and routinely done. GMG 20:07, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Gross incivility

I am reporting User:Ashwani8888 and unfortunately I think a block may be necessary.

This user has frequently made personal insults, especially to User:Luke Stark 96, who requested my support in this matter.

For example, see a number of recent instances on User_talk:Ashwani8888, as well as using the word b****** in this (non-recent) edit here.

As two of the most frequent contributors to List of most viewed YouTube videos, User:Luke Stark 96 and I have also found the majority of the edits by this user on this page to be factually inaccurate.

I warned this user I would report him if further insults occurred, and since then this user has made two further personal attacks. I have left a message on this user's talk page about this report. Tcamfield (talk) 22:27, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) In addition to the PAs, I am concerned about the intent to edit war stated here . Tornado chaser (talk) 23:28, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

• "Bastard" is not the same as "bitch", but still. Sure these are personal attacks and I can warn them for it. More importantly, can I see some evidence of those supposed invented numbers? That would be a more useful thing, I think. Drmies (talk) 00:57, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

The connotation & severity of "bastard" is culturally dependent. It is particularly severe an insult in South Asian cultures; far less so in other parts of the Anglosphere. - Ryk72 02:02, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Even if culturally dependant, and the edit Tornado chaser highlighted is over the line and demonstrates a battleground, retaliatory mentality. But I agree with Drmies that a warning is appropriate with the understanding that continuation would likely result in a block. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:23, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

• In culinary circles bastard is a particularly powerful epithet. EEng 06:11, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

The user has since edited my first paragraph (on this page!) with his own message. I will leave it unaltered so you can see. Tcamfield (talk) 07:10, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

• And I'll remove it. Drmies (talk) 15:33, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

While this insult got the thread going, discussing its strength won't get anyone anywhere. The alleged factual inaccuracy of the user's edits is a pressing problem in an encyclopedia, and it's a pretty serious accusation. I have yet to see proof of it. If it turns out that the edits were not in fact inaccurate, then we may well be dealing with a seriously disgruntled editor who might actually have a case. So, Tcamfield, please provide some evidence. It needs no arguing that your opponent is acting like a jerk here. User:Ashwani8888, this idiotic edit alone might get you blocked. Drmies (talk) 15:32, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

This is not something which I feel is outrageous vandalism which is why I only mentioned it in passing, but it is factually inaccurate and these sort of things mean that most of the user's edits have had to be reverted. This user edits List of most viewed YouTube videos and most of their edits involve moving "Shape of You" (currently 7th on the list) as it climbs up the list. (You are meant to update all the videos at once for consistency, but that's beside the point as many editors make this mistake and its forgiveable.) Unfortunately this user is too hasty on the edits. It is hard to show because the number of views is a moving target which can only be shown to be correct or incorrect at the time, but an example is here which was edited by this user 36 hours ago to show Shape of You as above Shake It Off. Shape of You only overtook Shake It Off about 12-16 hours ago. To see this now you have to find the two videos on YouTube and note the lead of about 2.8 million views at time of writing, then go on a website like | kworb and note that Shape of You is gaining c.5.5-6m views per day, while Shake It Off is down the list gaining just c.1m views per day. A bit of maths puts the overtake at about 12-16 hours ago. I can also confirm that the overtake was about 14 hours ago as I saw that the view counts were very close at the time.

It's a slightly laughable point compared to some bad cases of vandalism (and I certainly wouldn't call for a block for just this!) but as the page gets thousands of visits a day, it does have to be reverted which is how the whole threatening of edit wars and bad language etc kicked off. I am now of the opinion that User:Ashwani8888 deserves one more chance as they have shown some willingness to behave amenably with their latest comment on their talk page. Tcamfield (talk) 21:17, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

• I'm a little concerned about the WP:OR mentioned in the above comment. That being said, the reported editor really needs to knock it off, and the actual relative "strength" of the insult they used is completely immaterial. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:20, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll say that's not how we source the data in the article. In this instance, it's just the only way of showing what happened a number of hours after the fact. It does say in WP:OR: "(This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages and other pages which evaluate article content and sources, such as deletion discussions or policy noticeboards.)"Tcamfield (talk) 22:53, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

He's doing the same thing on page List of most liked YouTube videos, for example here and here. Shape of You hasn't got 12.39 million likes, now the song has 12.35 million likes--Luke Stark 96 (talk) 09:46, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Neutrality dispute + SPA + possible COI on journalist Kevin Deutsch

Hello,

I'd really prefer to be taking this to a different noticeboard to chat it out, but my compatriot has both indicated they are no longer interested in discussion and is also aggressively reverting. This relates to the article Kevin Deutsch (my preferred revision), a journalist and author who has been accused of being highly sloppy about sourcing and over-anonymizing events to the point of having no relation with the original event (at best), or of repeat fabrication and fraud (at worst).

User:Ballastpointed is aggressively editing Kevin Deutsch to fit his spin (sample diffs: 1, 2, 3, all within the space of ~24 hours). Ballastpointed is a single purpose account whose sole goal on Misplaced Pages seems to be to communicate what an awesome guy Deutsch is. He's denied being Deutsch himself or a friend/associate (diff), but he has claimed to be a super-expert on Deutsch (diff). At first, Ballastpointed was productively responding on the talk page to pings and somewhat ratcheting his claims downward - allowing hostile material to stand but rephrasing it, and many of these edits have been left in place (e.g. including this article which discusses the New York Daily News investigation into Deutsch's work). However, he's since gone back to just plain reverting to a version that is, in my opinion, not neutral (doesn't reflect the majority of the sources) and overly relies upon self-published sources (extensively citing Deutsch's website and Deutsch's personal explanations for the accusations against him in-line with other sources; example diff), and has thrown in WP:PEACOCK terms as well ("award-winning" in the lede, etc.).

I have done my part in talking it out on the talk page (see Talk:Kevin Deutsch), and offered to bring in a third opinion or discuss on a noticeboard (diff). Since Ballastpointed has responded to pings before, he saw this. He has not replied. If he isn't going to participate, there's no point in bringing this to Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard or Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. (I have also attempted to offer productive avenues for Ballastpointed to apply his preferred slant - if he could find some source, any source, that is not self-published but supports Deutsch's view of things. He has not really provided one, however; the closest is attempting to interpret the NY Daily News article as an exoneration of Deutsch, which it isn't.)

Note that this is a WP:BLP, so Ballastpointed is certainly correct that there should be a very high standard set for negative material. Unfortuantely for Deutsch, there is reams of negative material in reliable sources, and very little supportive material. His "15 year career in journalism" is not actually particularly notable and would likely be deleted as a stand-alone article (any more than any other of the many freelance journalists out there), and while Deutsch's own personal explanations and excuses for the sourcing confirmation problems deserve to be mentioned, they do not deserve to be taken as anything more than a denial - certainly in no way as "evidence" that somehow the investigations into him were faulty. Additionally, Ballastpointed has attempted to highlight the many small and noncontroversial articles that Deutsch wrote that weren't challenged, and imply this is somehow an exoneration of Deutsch. But these articles are simply not very notable nor interesting to talk about - as the Washington Post wrote, "Most mainstream news organizations would fire a journalist for a single instance of inventing a source or a quote, let alone dozens and dozens of them."

I ask that Ballastpointed be informed that he needs to comply with Misplaced Pages policies such as WP:SPS, WP:NPOV and WP:RS, or else have the page protected. If he wants to submit edit requests (a la COI accounts), that would be acceptable. If he doesn't respond at all and keeps edit warring, then he should be blocked. SnowFire (talk) 02:06, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Sir,

You’ve repeatedly deleted my contributions to the page, adding innacuriate/non/factual synopses, ignoring due weight requirements, and inserting language that violates Wiki’s living persons policy. You are a newcomer to the page, and began your work here by reversing my contributions. Since then, I have attempted to correct the erroneous paraphrasing you’ve inserted, and to restore information you removed that was favorable to Mr. Deutsch. Your attempts to construe every line of coverage in the worst possible light deserves to be challenged, and it will continue to be, by myself and others. Perhaps most egregiously, you removed a NY Observer article written by Mr. Deutsch, which contains an extensive, closely reasoned defense/rebuttal. Additionally,

you removed key parts of his response to the Times’ findings and the favorable “no red flags” language in the Daily News finding. In short, you’ve removed everything exculpatory it favorable to Mr. Deutsch, and I submit that you, sir, are in fact the one with a conflict of interest and obvious agenda here.

Wherever there is an allegation, there should be a defense of that allegation if that defense has been published, which it has been. This is how the living person’s policy and due weight work. These are unsubstantiated allegations. The coverage has focused on the same series of allegations. Those allegations take up a majority of this article. I can’t imagine what Moreno you’re hoping to achieve here, short of libel.

Adding quotes about racism from David Simon—who last year used the n-word on Twitter and got a lot of heat for it—is indicative of how far you’re willing to go to libel this writer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ballastpointed (talk • contribs) 02:43, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) If you are going to accuse anyone of libel, you should be familier with WP:NLT, I am not saying you are trying to make a legal threat, just reminding you how things can be interpreted. Tornado chaser (talk) 03:01, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

• Ballastpointed returned to the prior edit war pretty much immediately upon acknowledging this discussion, as well as having previously been warned and asked to build a consensus first. For that reason, I gave him a week block so as to slow down the edit war. If he expresses that he intends to stay on the talk pages going forward, and avoid editing against consensus, anyone may unblock. --Jayron32 03:27, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately, we also have a sock/meatpuppet issue. User:AlexVegaEsquire, who is also a single-purpose account whose only activity on Misplaced Pages has been to edit the Kevin Deutsch article (and create the original, fawning version of it), has suddenly appeared again after the block and has the exact same opinions as Ballastpointed (diff). Note that I'm not the first person; others, over a months-long period, have been attempting to have the article reflect the slant seen in the news media, but AlexVegaEsquire was the one editing it back earlier (as can be seen from notices on his talk page and his edit history). We may need the same treatment for this account as Ballastpointed: defend your points on the talk page in a style consistent with Misplaced Pages. SnowFire (talk) 14:51, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

I agree with the previous editor and think Misplaced Pages admin should resolve the issue of whether or not SnowFire's removals should be restored, specifically the subject's denial of the allegations in the lead. Third party resolution needed. I am all for keeping this article current and reflective of slant but some moderation is needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlexVegaEsquire (talk • contribs)

Well, the edit war has resumed. I've made my one revert, but AlexVegaEsquire has put it back twice.

Note that it isn't just a dispute with me; AlexVegaEsquire has quarreled with other Misplaced Pages editors as well (example diff removing sourced (negative) material on fairly specious grounds), e.g. User:Baltimore free and User:Wikihunter6. (Which, granted, also seem to be newish SPA-ish accounts, but... willing to give some benefit of the doubt).

AlexVegaEsquire, for the content discussion about how relevant the subject's denials & explanations are, please edit Talk:Kevin Deutsch. Let's reserve this space for editor conduct. SnowFire (talk) 15:55, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Possible behavioral OR problems by myself in The Putin Interviews (?)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Brief background (And I managed to post it wrong, first time) I've earlier asked for better guidance when it comes to Plots of motion pictures, novels, etc - at the Village Pump as well as elsewhere. As I was looking for information about Oliver Stone's The Putin Interviews series, did I notice that the article in question contained very little information. Someone had began at a Summary, which must be the counterpart to a Plot within fiction - film/novels etc. And we are then to use the film/interview or novel as a primary source. Any contributor must take especially documentaries like this one very serious. And report what's observed, without making any own conclusions. Otherwise it would be OR, obviously.

Having said that, am I hereby reporting myself to AN/I, in order to try to find out if I possibly have been guilty of any OR in the summary part of that article or not.

Main issue - If an interviewed person isn't responding to a specific question, then changes subject, and instead makes (for the put Question, in question), a totally unrelated statement, is normally exactly the same as "avoiding a question." Which can be observed (there was no cut made in the interview there) and isn't anything I have "invented" I would further like to say, from a normal human perspective, is a change of subject a very well-known way to avoid a question. Extreme hypothetical aspects aside. In this case, did Putin avoid to answer at least one of Stone's questions. Some other user, is of a very different opinion, and accuses me of having drawn OR conclusions. And appear to make the argument that "Putin never actually said I avoid that question". While I mean, that I have observed that Putin avoids a question from Stone. And hence have I not been guilty of OR. Not to my knowledge, anyhow. If an interviewed person isn't responding to a specific question, change subject, and instead makes, for the put question, a totally unrelated statement, is normally exactly the same as "avoiding a question" which can be observed (and there was not cut in the interview, there, which may be essential)

An other contributor appears to question just everything, in my humble opinion. Like "Does Putin say 'I avoid that question ?'", If Stone really has put this question or if there are any questions at all, in this 4 hours of interviews. Or at the very least, brings up various hypothetical aspects of as much as he/she just can. If this contributor's general argumentation would be carried out in terms of new guidelines for Plots and Summaries, would it mean the end of our service of to our readers of this kind. Finding a Plot or a good Summary for novels, motion pictures, documentaries and interviews in Secondary sources, don't I really believe to be possible for us. And generally, as far as I have seen at least, are our Plots / Summaries seldom or never abused. I concur with those who say, "in Plots/Summaries is the novel or film a primary source" (The only serious alternative would be to remove presumably next to all of them)

I have suggested to that user to make a complaint to AN/I , but it's just possibly might be so, that endless argumentation over "the Pope's beard - or the Beard's beard" is something he/she prefer. But really don't know. And as no such complaint has been made here, do I feel obliged to do this myself. (But I just happened to put this outside AN/I, at Wiki-No OR, I'm not used to make complaints, and I'm sorry for this mistake of mine.)

And I think an AN/I verdict would be to prefer, in this special case, ahead of endless time wasted at talk-pages over nothings (not just for me here and now, but in general and for the future). In a nutshell - isn't changing subject exactly the same as avoiding a question, normally ? And I really mean e-x-a-c-t-l-y the same, in this case.

And if AN/I find me guilty of intentional OR violation, do I expect some kind of proper punishment, although I have reported myself. If AN/I find me guilty of unintentional OR, would some comments be nice (aside of a possible punishment), something that I could take to heart for the future. And if AN/I find that I haven't been guilty of OR violation, then would this matter still be decided, for other obvious observations related to Plots / Summaries.

I will notify "myself" as well as the contributor who's got a very different opinion, but as he hasn't brought it up, do I leave this up to himself, if he feels like participate in this complaint against myself. I guess he/she will, as he/she was the one who notified me that "this isn't the real AN/I"

Finally, I'm not doing this for fun, I must add. Am I wrong must AN/I punish me as if the complaint came from the other contributor. But the issue is about whether I have drawn OR conclusions in the Summary part of The Putin Interviews article. (I made a WP:BOLD statement in the lead of this article, with the aim to get more contributors interested. Four hour of interviews with a Summary of 1,5 line did I find to be appallingly little. And I guessed t hat the article is somewhat delicate and perhaps may scare contributors. Boeing720 (talk) 06:52, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

WP:NOR is a content policy. This page is for actionable violations of behavior policy, thus you can't report someone to ANI for NOR violation, including yourself. See WP:DR for ways to resolve content disputes. Unless you can make a case that you are guilty of disruptive editing, you will have to find your punishment elsewhere. I could suggest some S&M sites. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:06, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)This miasma of incoherent ramblings is fairly typical of Boeing720's writing. He seems to have great difficulty expressing himself in an intelligible way in English, yet steadfastly refuses to acknowledge or accept any advice he is given in the attempt to help him. Generally, it is quite difficult to work out what he is saying and this applies to main space edits as well, with the consequence that others have to come along and clean up after him. If ever there was a case of competence is required, this is it. - Nick Thorne 07:10, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

I agree with all of Nick Thorne's comment. This seems entirely redundant to the WP:NOR/N thread. power~enwiki (π, ν) 07:30, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

• A remedy is required. I commented at Boeing720's talk regarding a completely unacceptable edit (diff) which changed a straight forward account of what happened in an interview to a slanted assertion in Misplaced Pages's voice that Putin had avoided a "specific question". Of course such a conclusion would be valid for almost all interviews with politicians, but Boeing720 fails to understand that Misplaced Pages is not the place for such blog-like commentary. The user has had some support in the past from kind observers who see Boeing720 struggling with English and apply buckets of WP:AGF. However, the user's talk page show that the time for that is past. The problem may involve an inability to comprehend the English explanations that have been given. Johnuniq (talk) 07:28, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
• I'll provide some examples of how I've tried to deal with this user. I first encountered Boeing720 on C (programming language) while cleaning up a series of edits he was making. The bad grammar made the sentences nearly indecipherable and for example one reference offered was literally "This was stated by a computer and high skilled Swedish programmer at university level, by 2001". Also on a technical level the knowledge presented was very rudimentary, superfluous to the article, and sometimes wrong. Subsequently I have kept and eye out and these are typical of the kind of corrections that are necessary to every major article edit Boeing720 makes. Explaining patiently in detail what the grammatical and sourcing problems are has never had any effect, he argues past the point, often asserts his expertise, becomes aggravated and most problematically: continues making the same mistakes. For examples of the conversations see Talk:Register (keyword), Talk:C (programming language)#Recent edits, User talk:Boeing720#Unsourced opinions/commentary (and the section above it) and WP:NORN#Report myself, OR (?). I feel bad about the circumstance; I think Boeing720's intent is good but an inability to process and accept advice regarding original research and fundamental English grammar is difficult to work with. —DIYeditor (talk) 09:09, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
• (Non-administrator comment) I recommend a warning and close until another editor reports Boeing720 (if they still persist with OR or become disruptive). (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) —PaleoNeonate – 12:46, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

This is the core of the matter (taken from DIYeditor's contribution above): "I commented at Boeing720's talk regarding a completely unacceptable edit (diff) which changed a straight forward account of what happened in an interview to a slanted assertion in Misplaced Pages's voice that Putin had avoided a "specific question". " - But I disagree (and from scratch, was it DIYeditor who changed my contribution, just see the history file to article in blue below). Writing "Putin avoided that question" is obvious enough for making that statement. It's not an interpretation, is no change of the actual significance. It's solely an observation. Regarding Edward Snowden in The Putin Interviews. When Stone asks about Putin's views on Edward Snowden and whether he is a traitor or not, Putin replies, "No he is not, as he never has worked for any foreign country," but when Stone then turns that question around and asks "What about if a Russian FSB employee had done something similar ?", then Putin avoids this question by changing subject, and instead says "To spy on ones own allies is dirty, really dirty". I cannot find the words "avoid this question" includes any interpretation or OR. Putin changed subject, he didn't reply to Stone's question, which is exactly the same as avoiding a question. If continue on this line in absurdum: Was, what Putin then said really a reply at all ? Or did he begin discussing something else ? Perhaps he didn't hear Stone or his (possible) question ? If it indeed was a question at all !? Or perhaps Putin didn't listen good enough ? And did Stone actually ask any question at all during 4 hours ? Only at a few occasions did Stone actually say "This is something i must ask..", "People at home expects me to ask this..", so if following in absurdum can no editor at Misplaced Pages state that there were any other questions, but those ones.. And did Putin say "my reply to your question is..." anytime during the (aired) interviews ? Define "question" , define "reply" etc. etc. In absurdum.

I really don't think I challenge any of our guidelines. And certainly not their intentions. Largely all our Plots and Summary parts to our articles about film /motion pictures, novels, TV-series and TV-documentaries would have to be deleted or heavily reduced, if it's unacceptable to make obvious observations. So what is an "obvious observation" ? One answer is, something that a wide majority share and agree. Absolutely free of own conclusions. DIYeditor has previously pointed out that Putin doesn't specifically say that he avoids that question - but nevertheless does Putin avoid this question. Which all who have watched would agree to, that he does. Not everything must be said in words in order to be obvious enough to observe ! And the use of primary sources isn't my invention, but I can understand if someone should think Stone's interviews are of higher importance, when compared to fiction. But I think I was careful in my contributions to The Putin Interviews. Including in the edit summaries. And including "Putin avoided that question". I think we have arrived at some kind of crossroads. A crossroads between common sense and reason in one corner, and "absurdum" in the other one. At least when it comes to Plots and Summaries. "Carefulness" must however be a keyword in such cases. But I say again, obvious observations, doesn't by default require words. Especially not in filmed dialogues, and as long as secondary sources are unavailable.

• Complaints about my English isn't a part of this imperative matter and formal complaint. (But I've never received complaints like DIYeditor's before, during six years here. I think my self-estimation of my English is correct, compared to others - 3, advanced but not academical. But anyone is free to open an other AN/I complaint, about that matter.) This AN/I complaint is meant to be about whether obvious observations of primary sources necessarily must be said in words or not. (excluding stupid hypothetical possibilities and counter possibilities) - and of course if I have violated our OR guideline. My position is "not by default" and most certainly not, in this case. If am wrong, do I fear most of our Plot and Summary "service" (if I may use that label) for our readers are endangered. Lastly do I humbly ask of those who make comments here, to realize that this is a matter of precedent. Boeing720 (talk) 23:48, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Repeating the same arguments in great length, verging on WP:TLDR does nothing to promote your cause. We get it that you don't think you did anything wrong. That is entirely the problem here. Despite having several people point out the requirement to avoid OR, you merrily carry on asserting that your interpretation is not OR. If you can't see why this is an issue then I'm not sure Misplaced Pages is the place for you. Once again I must point out that our job here is to reflect what the reliable sources say. You viewing a video is not a reliable source. End of discussion. Oh, and you don't get to decide what is discussed and examined here at AN/I. All aspects of an editors behaviour may and often are examined, including their competence and the amount of work they might create for others even if they are editing in good faith. My advice would be to reconsider your position, to accept that you are required to abide by policy here and promise to listen to advice from others. - Nick Thorne 05:06, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

No. I'm asking for better guidelines regarding the use of primary sources in relation to our Plots and Summaries. And I'm questioning if my contribution in question is an observation or an OR violation. That's the core. Boeing720 (talk) 00:22, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

• This really is looking like serious IDHT at the very least, and CIR quite likely. EEng 00:39, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Nick Thorn, for your comment, by the way. But one example: The Candidate (1972 film) - Second line of the Plot: "Bill McKay (Robert Redford), the idealistic, handsome, and charismatic son of former California governor John J. McKay (Melvyn Douglas)." How can we state Bill McKay to be "idealistic, handsome, and charismatic" ? Is it an obvious observation or an OR violation ? I hope you can see my point here. (even if I have managed to create a kind of mess here, for which I'm sorry) Boeing720 (talk) 00:46, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

What's IDHT and CIR ? Jokes ? Boeing720 (talk) 01:00, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

WP:IDHT, WP:CIR. How many times do you have to be told that we don't handle content disputes at ANI, and most assuredly not content disputes between an editor and himself? Your rambling opening post belongs in a museum. EEng 01:45, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

It's not a dispute. Not from my side. We simply have to discuss where the limits go between observation and own conclusions regarding primary sources in our Plots and Summaries, and when that becomes OR or not. Wasn't "Putin avoided that question" solely an observation or was it a conclusion I did. I really think we need a verdict. For the future.

My position is, unless AN/I comes to a different conclusion, that we are allowed to observe, listening in this example. Hence can we, without any interpretation, write what's obvious observations. I believe that the border between interpretation and observation goes where we begin to think actively. Boeing720 (talk) 03:59, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

• Can someone PLEASE close this before we have to give this guy a smack? EEng 20:12, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Dimitrios Baltzis

Hi, I'd appreciate some help here. I've been the subject of a spurious report for edit warring , and am being pressured (harassed) by Anastan (talk · contribs) to restore content that was copyright violation. Thanks for any assistance re: article and user issues. I am, among other things, curious as to how the doctor's website was apparently so quickly converted to free-use, as well as the possibility of COI; I'd also like to confirm from an objective editor whether notability is satisfied. 2601:188:180:11F0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 20:21, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

I have send an email to website contact that it would be good to unlock the website for usage, as someone already started it. I have done this numerous times already, as that expand our possibilities to use here. Good faith editors think this is good, unlike other editors who this that editors can have COI with Greek doctor diabetologist. :) Website now have "Licensed under the CC-BY-SA and GFDL." tag, so no reason to remove section per copyright. Simple as that. I asked IP to restore deleted content, as website is free to use on wikipedia. --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 20:25, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Of course good faith was questioned; copyright violation content was repeatedly restored, and an unmerited report was opened against me at the edit warring noticeboard. Since these developments, free use has been obtained. That said, it's still not advisable to copy biographical content directly from the subject's website. I'm requesting both scrutiny of Anastan's handling of this, as well as the content and tone of the article going forward. Thanks, 2601:188:180:11F0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 20:51, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

If you are really interested in content of this, you would restore section and sources you have removed. But per your comment, it looks like you are not interested in this subject anymore, so, doesn't matter really. All best. --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 21:07, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Phil Murphy (politician)

Could we get a sysop to nuke the problem editor here and probably clean up the page history... most of the first page is now just BLP violations and then reversion of them. Home Lander (talk) 21:50, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

I've done a load of RDing and blocked one account, Maile66 (talk · contribs) already took care of the other. – filelakeshoe (t / c)  22:45, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Flamestech's disruptive reversions, possible block evasion

User @Flamestech: is being disruptive in my opinion. They've messed with the infobox stats on the Second Italo-Ethiopian War ()() (an area of the article that is subject to change via talkpage consensus; in spite of a suggestion that they go to the talk page they have refused to do and reverted my reversion with no explanation), have thrice reverted ()()()(a violation of the three revert rule in particularly concerning fashion) my attempts to post a deletion notice on an article they created, and attempted to cover up said deletion process by removing () the notice I left on their talk page. Their edits to the Second Italo-Ethiopian War are reminiscent of User:Krajoyn, a blocked editor known for their non-communicative edit-warring style who used many socks to try and force such edits upon the page. -Indy beetle (talk) 01:52, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

• And they continue to change the Second Italo-Ethiopian War article ()()()() without any explanation or discussion. This needs immediate attentions because there's nothing I can do without violating the 3-revert rule. -Indy beetle (talk) 03:14, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
  • I have blocked Flamestech for 24 hours for making four reverts on the Second Italo-Ethiopian War article within a 24 hour period per WP:3RR (0052, 0112, 0311, 0312 h on 23 Sep). Indy, if you haven't already done so, please post a comment on the article's talk page about why you disagree with Flamestech's edits. That way, one Flamestech's block has expired, they can join in the conversation and consensus can be established. If you are concerned about Flamestech being a sock, I suggest filing an WP:SPI. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 06:25, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
    • This person continues to make vandalism and to offend me with personal attacks (see here and here) with many sockpuppets that are already all blocked on italian Misplaced Pages for same vandalism (see here). --Holapaco77 (talk) 13:46, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
      • I have reverted the personal attack and given the IP a warning. If they continue, please let me know. As I stated above, I feel that this needs to be taken to SPI with a full case outlined there linking the alleged sock puppets. That said, I'm happy to defer to the judgement of other admins if they disagree with this suggestion and feel it warrants different action. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 02:51, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Repeated disruptive edits IPuser:24.190.40.112

Since 17 September 2017, 24.190.40.112 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Repeated disruptive edits every days (see user contribs log), including ununderstandable create inappropriate short articles from redirects, section branking, references removed, BLP violations, added unsourced content, adding strange grammar sentences (missing ", and a disregard for Misplaced Pages guidelines. As warning from many other users and editing blocked for 36 hours on 19 September is not worked, I think that it is necessary for editing block of six months or more. Inception2010 (talk) 03:06, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

• As of 24 September 2017, This IP user still continues to do pointless edits (see user contribs log). I am disapointted that the editing block has not been done yet, dispite this IP user are Clearly not here to contribute to the encyclopedia. Inception2010 (talk) 19:01, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

User:Impedehim has made some intriguing edits.

Not sure what it's all about. Possibly a Nothere. Maybe some sort of sampler/edit bot. I don't know. Impedehim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). (Impede him?). Admins can see Misplaced Pages:Impedehim, deleted as a test page by RHawthorn. I deleted User:Impedehim (WVS). The tagged for deletion under U5 User:Impedehim looks like a Signpost article. Misplaced Pages:Dahomean Articles has the same content, apparently a fake Signpost article. As is Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/Archives/Lacaidonian. There are more examples, but you get the drift. If someone else could take a look. I dropped them a note saying I was coming here. Will add the permalink.Dlohcierekim (talk) 04:11, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

@Dlohcierekim:--I have moved Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/Archives/Lacaidonian to his user-space.That's outright disruptive.Since,I don't have the PMover right on this acc., please delete the corresponding redirect.Regards:)Winged Blades of Godric 18:09, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

• Block him.Clueless and incompetent.Winged Blades of Godric 18:09, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

• I have given the editor a final warning, and I really do mean it to be final. If I see one more stupid edit I will be very likely to block the account. Please feel welcome to alert me if you see any more nonsense before I do. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 18:31, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Article ownership, edit warring over maintenance tags, and less-than-civil edit summaries by User:Megerflit

• Megerflit (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Nick Bougas (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The user in question is holding himself out as Nick Bougas. After revamping the article to his preferred version, he takes objection to any maintenance tags being placed on the article—especially anything pointing out that his edits may have affected the neutrality of the page. Further, his edit summaries, while they don't quite rise to the level of personal attacks, are far from civil. His level of ownership behaviour is such that he now is appealing to have the page deleted rather than have maintenance tags placed on it.

He's already been blocked for edit warring, and his first edits when back from the block were to start removing the tags. Clearly this is a situation for some administrator involvement. Can somebody else step in and talk to him? —C.Fred (talk) 05:14, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

• Comment--Anyone for a soft-block (impersonation) at a minimum? Anyways, I've reverted his latest edits.Winged Blades of Godric 10:14, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

C.Fred suggests that somebody talk to him, but having looked at his editing history I think it has gone beyond that stage. I have blocked the account indefinitely. If he is willing to totally change his ways he can make an unblock request, and if he isn't then he is never going to make constructive contributions to the project. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 19:18, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Long-time repeated disruptive/POV editing by Ukrainian IP

178.165.104.80 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) (sample edits, all made after returning from their latest block: , , , , , , )

For more than a year now (since 27 August, 2016) the above IP, a static broadband connection geolocating to the Ukraine, has been on a relentless campaign to "Ukrainise" all articles even remotely connected to the Ukraine and people they see as being or having been Ukrainians, by changing names, and/or transliteration thereof, etc away from what is commonly used in English language literature and media, to the names and/or transliteration currently preferred in the Ukraine, such as Kiev -> Kyiv, Kievan Rus' -> Kyivan Rus Vladimir the Great -> Volodymyr the Great, making anachronistic changes of place of birth, such as changing the country of birth for historic individuals from Russian Empire to the Ukraine, a country that didn't exist until long after the times of those individuals, etc. And getting blocked four times for it over the past year (with the latest one being a three-month block on 27 April), hasn't stopped them, as shown by them being back at it again just a few days after returning from their latest block on 27 July, making the exact same attempts to Ukrainise articles again on 2, 3, 4, 7, 9, 20 and 31 August, and again on 12, 14, 18, 21, 22 and 23 September, showing no signs of ever stopping. All edits ever made by this IP are of the same kind, showing that it's a single individual doing it, meaning that there would be no collateral damage, so could we please have another block? For at least six months... - Tom | Thomas.W 08:48, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

• For a bit of a background to this see Talk:Kiev/naming, a collection of Requested move discussions spanning almost ten years, every one of which has ended in favour of keeping Kiev, and not changing to Kyiv. An outcome that a number of Ukrainian nationalists refuse to accept, in spite of being told repeatedly that we go by what WP:COMMONNAME says, so this isn't a simple content dispute but deliberate disruption, and an attempt to push the changes through by brute force. - Tom | Thomas.W 12:38, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

•  Done Blocked for six months as requested to prevent further disruption. I note that although the IP address is owned by Maxnet Telecom, it appears to be allocated to Kharkivs'ka city council. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:27, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Request that Rana Jai Singh be deleted

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I just noticed today that an article named Rana Jai Singh is in wikipedia. The article is here since 2011 and does not even have a single book source or external link. I proposed it for deletion and notified the creator of the page, but I just checked and saw that that the creator(Cao Ren) is inactive since December 2011. As the creator of the article has no arguments(or sources) which signify this article's importance or authenticity, I request the administrators that this article should be deleted immediately as having unsourced articles is against Misplaced Pages's policy, especially if it is the article of a person.Hagoromo's Susanoo (talk) 09:23, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

@Hagoromo's Susanoo:--Immediate deletions, other than under those explicitly covered under speedy criterion does not occur.And this has a credible claim of significance(commanding officer of a royal army at a battle) and has a chance of prob. decent sourcing which is just missing.Also see that WP has no deadline.Thus, I've declined the PROD.Please approach the WP:AFD route.Thank you!Winged Blades of Godric 10:12, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Its just a claim. It says that he is a commanding office of a royal army at the Siege of Chittor bu th article Siege of Chittorgarh does not have him. Neither do any of the books which include siege of Chittorgarh like Rana 2004, Chandra 2005 or Sarkar 1960. That means that he is in no books. As for claim, anyone can add a claim by editing an unsourced article. And 6 years have passed and no sources have been, given so what chance is left. This article was also out of attention and no one noticed so how could someone improve it? It has rare if not zero links. Even I found it while going through the history of Siege of Chittorgarh in an old revision. As it has no source, only claims, the article is classified for deletion. If it is an article, there should be things told to us, such as what place he ruled or any other fact about him if he is important. e.g It is mentioned in an article(which has its sources) and a number of other books and articles. If not, then it is just a misconception. Even if not speedy deleted, it should be at least nominated for deletion.--Hagoromo's Susanoo (talk) 10:32, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

As pointed out, the way to get this deleted is to go via WP:AFD. I see this has been done. Please make your arguments at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Rana Jai Singh. --Yamla (talk) 12:59, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Asima Chatterjee Google Doodle

https://en.wikipedia.org/Asima_Chatterjee

Lots of vandalism since this became a google doodle. I think IP editors should be blocked until the day is over at least. Autumn Wind (talk) 09:34, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

36 hours of semi has been applied. Anarchyte (work | talk) 11:19, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

MfortyoneA

MfortyoneA (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) moved Enclosure (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Enclosure (legal) without consensus. It's since been moved back and a discussion is underway on the talk page. The problem is that MfortyoneA also changed every internal link to point to the new article title, which is now being CSD'd. Is there a way to get those edits batch reverted? Chris Troutman (talk) 12:16, 23 September 2017 (UTC) (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.)

@Chris troutman:--I am not very certain but as far as my knowledge goes there runs a certain bot to take care of these issues.Nope, it doesn't look like so! As of now,I have temp. removed the CSD for proper working of the links and prevent sudden deletion. Whoever decides to take a total look at here, shall evaluate the merits of the situation and shall revert the edits by MfortyoneA prior to deletion (if any) of the redirect.Winged Blades of Godric 13:11, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

MfortyoneA's creation of redirects continues. Can an admin bring some sense to this situation? I don't think MfortyoneA has any intention of doing anything other than redirects and disambig, which seems problematic when it's pointless. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:40, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Not just pointless but sometimes non-constructive, like this. A common noun in English, previously un-wikilinked, does not need to be linked to a dab page just because Misplaced Pages has an article about a specialised concept by the same name - Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary, after all. And even if it were, how would a link to a dab page help our readers? --bonadea contributions talk 16:12, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

enclosure ... A common noun in English .. yup, that's precisely my point. it seems crazy to me that this common noun has been used for such a specific meaning enclosure (legal) MfortyoneA (talk) 17:14, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

I did this to illustrate how much enclosure doesn't mean enclosure (legal) to most people. if we get precise links, it's easier to get the right links. talk:enclosure (legal) , going through the previous exercise yielded the fact that enclosure had been mislinked. my mission here is to get enclosure renamed. MfortyoneA (talk) 17:08, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

'how do dabs and redirects help', emergence, discovery. does anyone claim to know every context in[REDACTED] themselves? someone else who knows more on a specific subject could come in later and re-target a redirect more accurately. the redirect can capture context. If those original cases (stonehenge's mention of enclosure for example) were more contextual, they'd be more likely to be caught. Isn't the fact that links can clarify jargon really nice? the hovercard feature??? you move the cursor over a term, and without needing to open it, it can clarify it for you with a popup. Isn't it great to leverage this more?MfortyoneA (talk) 17:12, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Please do not do this ever again. Adding an emphasis to somebody else's post is a form of changing the meaning of that post - maybe it is what the original poster intended, maybe not, but the only relevant thing is that if the poster didn't choose to add emphasis, nobody else should either (certainly not without clearly stating that they have done so). Anyway, here's how I see it: Misplaced Pages has an article called Bridge. Does that mean that every time the phrase "bridging the gap" is used in another article, the reader automatically assumes that a physical bridge is meant, because there is a Misplaced Pages article about that meaning of the word? You just used the word "leverage" (which I have never seen outside extreme marketingspeak, but never mind that). Do you mean for me to assume that you are physically wielding an actual lever (since the top definition at Leverage is Mechanical advantage)? No, of course not, in both cases. Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary, and we often use words in articles without any regard for the fact that there are homographs which have articles about them. A Misplaced Pages article title is not a definition of what the word in the title "means" for Misplaced Pages's purposes.

But this is actually not what we need to discuss here. Your post above reads as if you have been making these edits to make a point about the meaning of one particular word. You have also been making these edits rapidly, and restoring them when other people have reverted, even though you are aware that there is no consensus in favour of the changes. That's not how it is supposed to work: when you realise that there are different opinions you discuss the changes you want to make, you make your case on the relevant talk pages, and you do your best to get a consensus in favour of the changes. Making these large-scale changes, with new redirect pages, lots of new dab page entries etc is not collaborative, the way I see it. --bonadea contributions talk 16:57, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Too many tabs open - that edit did not add a link to a dab page, but it was nonetheless unnecessary and the rest of my comment applies. --bonadea contributions talk 16:16, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Chris Troutman was criticising me for 'not knowing the content of an article', and actually going through this excercise of simply linking via the terms (making the terms more precise) yielded that the article was infact confusing. Isn't the point of[REDACTED] to be read by people who don't already know it, rather than for some clique to pat each other on the back about it. the article used to say enclosure was specific to the 18th century, then he basically calls me stupid for not knowing that it isn't. He's admitted the mistake and changed it to say 'middle ages'. Just Following the word , I discovered other historical uses that weren't. Surely this kind of error would be less likely to occur if the title was more accurate in the first place. The title is too vague. the point is EVEN WITHOUT domain knowledge, just clarifying and linking individual terms CAN increase the value of this resource. MfortyoneA (talk) 17:25, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

User:MfortyoneA has, as noted, mostly been creating redirects, and disambiguation pages that are often only necessary because of the redirects. While redirects and disambiguation are an important part of Misplaced Pages, it appears that Mfortyone is cluttering up the encyclopedia and wasting editors' time. Does anyone else agree that a topic-ban on redirects would be in order? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:55, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Does google pay trolls to stop[REDACTED] from growing into a search index? .. is that why there's so much resistance to redirects and dabs? stranger things have happened, in recent times.. MfortyoneA (talk) 19:48, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

If I were to answer yes to that question, then, on the Internet, no one knows that you are being sarcastic. As I said, redirects and disambiguation are an important part of Misplaced Pages, but they are only important when they facilitate use of the encyclopedia, and an encyclopedia is not supposed to be a search index. That was a useful reply in that it shows that the OP appears to be trying to make the encyclopedia into something that it is not. See What Misplaced Pages is not, but maybe that guideline needs another paragraph. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:14, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

ok so you don't deny it. a word like enclosure could be a user friendly search index, but then google would get nervous about a rival. That's the only rational explanation I have for the insane policy here. I see 11000 instances of that word. I wonder what proportion of them are *really* 'the legal process (in england) of combining smallholdings'. along the way there are subtle changes in context though. the more precise the links are (for every word), the more[REDACTED] can help self-correct, or teach us things we didn't know we wanted (like, until yesterday, I didn't even know this use of enclosure existed. I discovered it as tangent from looking into housing. You know our society is in deep trouble when people can get all snotty, preventing others from improving a lovely free resource of hypertext MfortyoneA (talk) 02:37, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

WP:RIGHTGREATSOCIETALHYPERTEXTWRONGS. EEng 02:41, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

• Umm... MfortyoneA is currently making about three edits a minute, most of which appear to be changing redirects to enclosure (legal). Doesn't seem exactly like the most constructive thing with an open RM and ANI. Just... FYI. I also seem to be getting some terrible deja vu to this discussion... probably purely coincidentally happening two weeks before MFOA's current account was created. GMG 12:40, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

I was thinking of that as well but couldn't find the discussion. Thank you for linking to it, GreenMeansGo. If nothing else, I think it is required reading to see what the discussions were before, and why so many people feel that overlinking and the overuse of redirects is a bad idea. --bonadea contributions talk 17:04, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm just gonna leave this here and suggest that we get a checkuser to look into it before this goes on any longer. Those are pretty exceptionally obscure articles to have such an overlap on for a user having exactly the same behavioral issues and nearly the same technobabble-esque responses. GMG 17:33, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

 Checkuser needed GMG 21:18, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

• Sheesh. Could the editor please curb further upwellings of going nuts with WP:POINTY mass edits, and discuss this kind of thing before horking out dozens of redirects to a disambiguation page? Fat trout at the least, please. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 18:18, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
• I suggest that MfortyoneA be advised by the community to not move pages without discussion except in cases where obvious things like capitalization is at stake. This should get across the message to them that anything potentially controversial needs to be discussed. This would not be a formal sanction, as things have not gotten to that level yet. If MfortyoneA can take this advice into consideration and not perform moves that could potentially be considered controversial without discussion, then we should be done here. RileyBugz_投稿記録 21:13, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Libraheights97

Libraheights97 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has an extensive history of disruptive editing on this encyclopedia. Since joining in August 2017, their continued edits at The Pinkprint have continued to be reverted, as it is not supported by reliable source. User was previously blocked for 72-hours for disruptive editing, however, any additional report is deemed "stale" or "unactionable," despite it being the same repeated pattern of editing. Also, at the Days of Our Lives page, the user continues to update information without changing the access date on the provided source; this alone proves that without updating the access date, the information could be questioned, as the information is provided after the provided access date. Despite multiple warnings (from myself and other editors), the user refuses to acknowledge this, and continues on this pattern of editing. Clearly, they are not here to edit constructively here at Misplaced Pages, and action should be taken. livelikemusic talk! 13:21, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

• Indeffed. Communication is required and this editor has never responded to concerns.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:29, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Persistent vandalism from Michigan IP

For over two months now, I (along with some other editors) have been reverting vandalism/disruptive edits from multiple IP addresses (although probably the same person). I report it, they get blocked; but usually are back within a few days making the same type of nonsense vandalism across the same type of articles. The IPs in question are (I may have missed a few):

• 50.124.235.116 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 50.124.238.163 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 50.105.96.238 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 50.105.99.47 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 50.105.115.196 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

All IPs have been warned multiple times and have been (temporarily) blocked at some point within the last two months. The question is, what else can be done? Can something more substantive or preventive be done to stop this persistent nonsense vandalism? According to here, all IPs geolocate to Muskegon County and specifically, per the coordinates at the source, the Mercy Health Hackley Campus in Michigan. Can a rangeblock be issued or what? Thanks. Drovethrughosts (talk) 16:08, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

• 50.105.0.0/16 and 50.124.0.0/16 both anon-blocked for three months. This is this LTA and he has used both ranges extensively. See Special:Contributions/50.124.0.0/16 and Special:Contributions/50.105.0.0/16. This is an excellent candidate for an edit filter.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:54, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Content dispute at Avatar (2009 film)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Granito diaz (talk · contribs) added a Non-NPOV and potentially biased piece of information on the film page, Avatar (2009 film). I have attempted to discuss the issue and provided helpful hints, but user has subsequently ignored it.--Tærkast (Discuss) 18:42, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

@TaerkastUA: I saw that the editor has reverted you three times in the last 24 hours, meaning they're at the limit. So I gave him the appropriate warning. I did not revert it myself; what I suggest you do instead is rewrite the material he added in accordance with policy and properly format the source.

If he reverts you after that, then take it to WP:ANEW. Daniel Case (talk) 19:40, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

The material is copied from here and thus is a copyright violation. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 19:52, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Closer examination reveals the user has already received a final warning for copyvio, so I have blocked. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 20:51, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Edit-warring on Dallas to keep a large chunk of data that doesn't belong there in the article

User:Texan44 has a dded a large chunk of economic data etc to the lead of Dallas, greatly expanding what was there previously, data that I removed since it's data for the entire Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex (which has its own article), not just for the city of Dallas which Dallas is about, but is being repeatedly added back again by Texan44, in spite of me telling them on their talk page, and in edit summaries, that is was removed for being outside the scope of the article it was added to, and pointing them to the correct article. I'm at three reverts now and can't revert them again, but I would appreciate if someone else could take a look at it, and make them understand, one way or the other. - Tom | Thomas.W 21:09, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

The information contained in the article has been present in that article for years. It is nothing new. It has not been added on a whim. It has existed previously for quite some time. I have merely updated that previously existing text, with verifiable and appropriate citations and links, to reflect the latest data. The text is nothing new being added but merely represents appropriate updates to long standing text and long standing existing data. The whole paragraph is prefaced with the fact that Dallas is the central economy and much of that data is only available in the format it is provided in (i.e. GDP data is not by city it is by MSA or metropolitan data). All of the data represented is that type of data. It is not an edit war except that this person has suddenly decided to make this into one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Texan44 (talk • contribs)

You expanded it, which is how I noticed it, and as I told you on your talk page, it doesn't matter if it has been there for years or not, it should go anyway, since it's outside the scope of the article. Dallas is about the city of Dallas only, not about the entire metroplex. Period. - Tom | Thomas.W 21:20, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Since this looks like a content dispute, the best thing to do is to discuss the matter at Talk:Dallas. I've recommened this to Texas44 when they contacted me at my talk page. —C.Fred (talk) 21:31, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Adding economic data for the entire metropolitan area to the lead and body of the article about the city of Dallas, which may be the largest city in the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex but is still just a part of it (with roughly one third of the population of the metroplex if my memory serves me right...Correction: the population of Dallas is less than one fifth of the total population of the metroplex...), misleads readers, and makes them believe that the economy of Dallas is larger than it is, and is as misleading as very prominently featuring economic data for all of Greater Los Angeles in the lead of the article about the city of Los Angeles. Just to mention one example. - Tom | Thomas.W 21:40, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

But there is no intent to mislead, so no administrative action is needed regarding the article. This is a matter for Talk:Dallas. If there's a 3RR violation after proper warning, you can take that to WP:AN3. —C.Fred (talk) 21:46, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm not saying they're intentionally trying to mislead anyone, but the end result is the same whether it's intentional or not. - Tom | Thomas.W 21:50, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

False accusations of incivility & vandalism

On Talk:Malta Convoys, my comments on an edit were called "incivil" by User:Keith-264, with whom (AFAI recall) I've had no previous contact. Following a content dispute, he demanded "discussion" of the contested edit, but refused to actually enter into any discussion, & when I rv'd (following his rv of the contested edit), he described it as vandalism. (I believe that also puts him in violation of 3RR...which, I confess, I may also be.) I don't appreciate abuse. I don't appreciate false accusations. I don't appreciate being held to a standard nobody else is actually being held to. I expect this complaint will produce just another excuse to air my past bad behavior, however, & provide yet another opportunity for people hostile to me to call for an indefinite block. At this point, I might welcome it. It beats harassment by User:Keith-264, & stalking by User:Andy Dingley, all hollow. TREKphiler 22:05, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Trek has taken umbrage despite a considerable effort by several editors to accommodate his point of view over the last week. He has reverted good work by defining it as not relevant to the article, refused to heed contrary opinion by two editors and arbitrarily reverted it again tonight, yet again according to a personal view of the motives of others. A quick look at the talk page shows that I have made a considerable effort to seek consensus and am not the editor in a minority of one. Calling me a harasser is a bit rich.Keith-264 (talk) 22:20, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

• WP:BOOMERANG. Trekphiler, I don't know what your childish whining is about today, but either post some diffs or leave me out of it. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:37, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Both User:Trekphiler and User:Keith-264 have violated 3RR. Interactions between these two editors at Talk:Malta convoys have been strained for going on a week now. In this time, I have attempted to moderate discussion and provide a third opinion to try to keep things running smoothly and to find a consensus but this has become increasingly difficult. My most recent offer to continue stands but any prospect of success appears to be increasingly unlikely unless there is a significant change. Regards Cinderella157 (talk) 01:47, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Military history#Civility war?. Cinderella157 (talk) 07:56, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

My error. There have been three reverts by each in less than 24 hrs (if I got the maths right), not "more than 3", so this is not a violation of 3RR. My apologies to all for my error. It is; however, nonetheless, a situation that requires admin intervention. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:28, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

"considerable effort"? I've seen you whining about my attitude & calling me a vandal, but not a lot of discussion of the substantive issue--& agreeing discussion with me is "a waste of time".

"leave me out of it" Right after you stop inserting yourself into discussions that have nothing to do with you.

It seems to me Keith-264 has been hostile to my edits on the Malta Convoys page from the start & has been trying to provoke me into saying something genuinely incivil. I believe that's called "baiting", & I understood there was a penalty for that. Presumably it only applies if I do it. TREKphiler 20:55, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm not the one making wholesale reverts without consensus, jumping to conclusions about motive or ignoring third party mediation.Keith-264 (talk) 23:29, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

No, you're claiming vandalism, incivility, & ownership, despite edits like this. Who's got a problem with ownership? And who, evidently, wants me to just shut up & go away? TREKphiler 23:51, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Tonmoypaul.71 pagemoves

Not too sure what's going on here, but Tonmoypaul.71 (talk · contribs) has been moving pages in long chains. It appears he is trying to move Datta High School to Dutt High School, but has created a whole mess in the process. Could someone clean it up? (note - before a few days ago, the article refered to the school as Datta, then some IP's changed it to Dutt - may be the same person) – Train2104 (t • c) 00:38, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

The external links, when run through Google Translate, give "Datta High School" and not "Dutt High School". Google Maps shows a location for "Datta High School" but none for "Dutt High School", although it does show a "Dutta Girls High School". Current, the article is at "Dutt High School", but this appears to be incorrect. Someone who is proficient in the language should look this over. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:34, 24 September 2017 (UTC) Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:32, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

It should be "Datta" in English, but it would appear that it is known as "Dutt" in English. In languages that use Latin script <u> usually represents "ooh"-like sounds. Due to the fact that English orthography basically preserves the way English was pronounced 700 years ago or so, it also represents "aah"-like sounds, like the <u> in the previous name of Kolkata. It also appears that we may well have a young person writing about their own school, as often happens, so be gentle. Remember What the Thunder Said. (Admittedly I wrote about the main administration block at one of my (four) alma maters, and made it the top google hit for "Sydney's ugliest building" for some time.)--Shirt58 (talk) 02:41, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Ongoing copyright and article re-creation issues

Rajasekharan Parameswaran has been uploading oil paintings claimed to be by the user, permissions need to be sent to OTRS, also according to talk page, they have been trying multiple times to create article about self. Did however send an email to VRTS ticket # 2016102610000483 to identify self, ticket validity seems highly suspect. Bringing here as some Administrative action seems warranted. - FlightTime (open channel) 04:16, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

@Jcc: As you probably realized, the indenitty of the user is not the issue, being the apparent copyright holder of all these paintings, explicit permission must be given via OTRS and must be released under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported and GNU Free Documentation license or Wikimedia can not use or host the images. - FlightTime (open channel) 15:09, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Yep- my mistake. jcc (tea and biscuits) 17:58, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Since we have evidence that this user is the copyright holder, there is no copyright issue here. This user has as much right to release the painting as I do a picture that I took with my camera. See how we've handled this with Jerry Avenaim and commons:User:Jerry Avenaim~commonswiki with File:Phil 1.jpg, File:William Shatner.jpg, and other files in Commons:Category:Photographs by Jerry Avenaim. Nyttend (talk) 23:45, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

@Nyttend: None of their uploads were tagged as OTRS received, just that their identity had been confirmed on their user pages and that ticket (IMO) proves nothing, but so be it. I can revert all my edits to the files if needed, but this seems to be real shotty OTRS work in my opinion. - FlightTime (open channel) 23:54, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Have you seen the contents of the ticket? Unless you're disagreeing with an OTRS agent's conclusion that the ticket confirms identity, there's no issue here. Once we know that you're the copyright holder, there's no reason to dispute anything copyright-related; Rajasekharan Parameswaran has the right to upload Rajasekharan Parameswaran's creations, just as User:Nyttend has the right to upload 's photographs, and if we've confirmed that User:Rajasekharan Parameswaran is Rajasekharan Parameswaran, the user's uploads shouldn't be questioned on copyright grounds. Nyttend (talk) 00:08, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

I just chalk it up to having my nose somewhere it shouldn't have been. - FlightTime (open channel) 00:14, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Help with commas

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can I get help w/a MoS question concerning commas?

Misplaced Pages's MoS says this about commas: "In geographical references that include multiple levels of subordinate divisions (e.g., city, state/province, country), a comma separates each element and follows the last element unless followed by other punctuation. Dates in month–day–year format require a comma after the day, as well as after the year, unless followed by other punctuation. In both cases, the last element is treated as parenthetical. Incorrect: He set October 1, 2011 as the deadline for Chattanooga, Oklahoma to meet his demands. Correct: He set October 1, 2011, as the deadline for Chattanooga, Oklahoma, to meet his demands."

Concerning the commas in dates in month-day-year formet, using this example from the Father Murphy page, "Father Murphy is an American western drama series that aired on the NBC network from November 3, 1981 to September 18, 1983."

The MoS says a comma is required after the year 1981:

"Father Murphy is an American western drama series that aired on the NBC network from November 3, 1981, to September 18, 1983."

Chicago, AP, APA & AMA says the same thing. All reputable sources agree - it's not ambiguous at all.

So why was my change reverted? It doesn't seem as if this is an optional comma; MoS says it's required; no exceptions are noted. What gives? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:35C6:C200:C522:44A:E109:F43F (talk • contribs)

IP is a likely sockpuppet of User:Hoggardhigh and has been reported for investigation. --‖ Ebyabe - Attract and Repel ‖ 06:12, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

So how do I get a Wikip grammarian to help? 2605:E000:35C6:C200:C522:44A:E109:F43F (talk) 06:48, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

So how do I get a Wikip grammarian to help? 2605:E000:35C6:C200:C522:44A:E109:F43F (talk) 06:48, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Go to WP:Help. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:53, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Block needed

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

185.24.12.182 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Please block this user as soon as possible. The user has repeatedly removed a section from an article without consensus. When I reverted them, they accused me of being a vandal, troll, and a malfunctioning bot. They have also started to use hostile edit summaries such as this one. Comfycozybeds (talk) 15:12, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Fetal alcohol spectrum disorder

Resolved, nac SwisterTwister talk 22:38, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Fetal alcohol spectrum disorder is being vandalised by multiple new users who appear to be socks of User:Bajirao1007. An image which he admits is his brother has twice been uploaded and speedily deleted from Commons here and here then placed on our project placed here here,here here here by Bajirao nd here. Also see User_talk:Bajirao1007#Fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. Even if his brother, clearly a minor, does have this illness it is unacceptable to be uploading these images to the commons and then putting them in this article. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 15:47, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) The article has been semi-protected for 2 days, no one has been blocked, so we'll see if the vandalism starts again when the protection expires, you might also consider filing a report as SPI. Tornado chaser (talk) 19:48, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Concerns about 8Dodo8's use of rollback

Earlier today I got a notification that my edit to remove deprecated image syntax was reverted by 8Dodo8. Upon looking further into who 8Dodo8 was - I discovered an unfortunate pattern of 8Dodo8 using the tool to give themselves an advantage in a content dispute on FC Steaua București. There seems to be a disagreement on what to use for the name of the football club between User:GrizzlyBear2002 and 8Dodo8 - both editors have been edit warring at the page.

Regardless of who's "right", using rollback on multiple occasions doesn't help settle the content dispute; let alone when coupled with an all-caps edit summary early on in the dispute.

In separate occurences, 8Dodo8 has used rollback to revert constructive edits that they disagree with.

Given the several occasions where the 8Dodo8 has misused the tool, I do not think the user is fit to retain access to rollback. Jon Kolbert (talk) 21:29, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

I agree. User has already been informed of the purpose of it at Special:PermaLink/775775488#User:8Dodo8. I also don't see them using it for anti-vandalism efforts. Misuse of rollback is probably my biggest pet peeve, so I fully support removal for both the lack of need and misuse of the tool. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 22:19, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

197.48.107.245

197.48.107.245 has made repeated vandalism edits to Nokia, currently at 4th warning, and additionally made a personal attack against Prolog, see this version of the user's talk page. RegistryKey 22:02, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Hmmm, an IPv4 address that is located in Egypt. They seem to have stopped what they were doing at 21:11, which is now four hours ago. If they resume, report them to WP:AIV. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 00:14, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

List of Star Wars films and television series

At List of Star Wars films and television series, 68.199.145.237 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been persistently changing the status of two films from not canon to canon without sourced backing: Edit 1, Edit 2, Edit 3, Edit 4, Edit 5, Edit 6, Edit 7, Edit 8. Myself and another user have reverted them each time, and we left three warnings on their talk page. At this point, it's disruptive, and I am unsure if they will stop of their own accord. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 22:18, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Edit 9, Edit 10 after an additional warning after the ANI notice. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 22:30, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Ought to be blocked. Sometimes, blocking is the only way to get through such individuals. GoodDay (talk) 22:31, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

The IP has made the change an additional eighteen times since GoodDay's comment here. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 23:41, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

I think it's up to 20 times now. IP has ignored both a soft and a hard EW warning. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:56, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

IP has been blocked by Malcolmxl5 and article restored to status quo ante. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:59, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

2x(edit conflict) Yep, blocked for 31 hours. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 00:02, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

German federal election, 2017

Could we have some admin eyes on this please. An editor has repeatedly tried to add some forecast results to the infobox despite there being multiple forecasts around (see the German language article). I have reverted a couple of times but an about to go to sleep and see it's been readded again despite a request to stop on the talkpage. Cheers, Number 57 23:32, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Insults by MjolnirPants

Over the past month or so, MjolnirPants has made a point of insulting me when we interact:

• Calling me a liar here on AN/I:

• Trying to be clever by deploying insults like "moron" and "idiot" with just enough plausible deniability:

I don't feel I should have to put up with this sort of behavior. I am requesting whatever sanction against MjolnirPants is deemed appropriate.

On a note about procedure: I would appreciate it if the people who discuss this request remain limited to

1. MjolnirPants, who of course has the right to speak in their own defense.
2. Whichever admins choose to review this request.

I expect that several editors who edit in the American Politics subject area will want to comment, but this request runs the risk of turning into a massive back-and-forth. I'd simply like the question of these insults to be handled here. -Thucydides411 (talk) 00:36, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

This is extraordinary. You wish to exclude the witnesses who have seen your behavior over the past year? Wouldn't that rather limit the information available to who ever closes this matter? SPECIFICO talk 00:40, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

• Point 1 of procedure is that you are put under the same exact microscope as MjolnirPants. So no, this discussion shall not remain limited to MjolnirPants. Point 2 of procedure is that non-admins who are involved or who can present evidence are free to do so and that experienced veterans can provide input or guidance as they deem fit - as I am doing right now. Mr rnddude (talk) 00:45, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
• I don't comment here too often, but this is fucking ridiculous. The very method in which this "complaint" was filed should be grounds for dismissal. Joefromrandb (talk) 01:23, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
• Right on top: "This page is for reporting and discussing incidents on the English Misplaced Pages that require the intervention of administrators and experienced editors." and WP:BOOMERANG: "There are often reports on various noticeboards, especially the incident noticeboard, posted by editors who are truly at fault themselves for the problem they're reporting. In other cases, a person might complain about another editor's actions in an incident, yet during the events of that incident they've committed far worse infractions themselves. In both cases, such editors will usually find sanctions brought against themselves rather than the people they've sought to report." The fact that you request users to abide by your "rules" is fucking ridiculous. Callmemirela 🍁 01:29, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
• Yes, none of your requirements can or will be met. Anyone filing a charge against another editor on AN/I will have their own behavior examined as well, and AN/I is open to the opinions of any Wikipedian.Let me start the ball rolling by looking at your editing history. You've been editing here for 11 years, since 2006, and yet you've only made 2,323 edits. Of those edits, a mere 33%, or 765 edits, have been to articles, the things that we're supposedly here to write, expand and correct, the basic unit of the encyclopedia. On the other hand, 66.2% of your edits (1,535 in number) have been to Talk, User talk, and Wikipediaspace. My observation is that you spend a fair number of those edits complaining that Misplaced Pages's consensus-determination procedure is broken, "not fair", and needs a complete overhaul, much as you did in a current discussion on AN, where you referred to it as "mob rule". You appear to be here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, and in doing so, you exhibit an alarming degree of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior, totally ignoring the valid, logical and reasonable arguments of your oppponents -- It's no wonder that such behavior would get under the skin of some editors. I myself have been the victim of your use of gross mischaracterizations of others' arguments in order to attempt to win a point.In short, I really think that, overall, you are WP:NOTHERE to contribute to the encyclopedia, your article edits being clearly incidental to your commentary edits. I'm not certain if your behavior is egregious enough to warrant a sanction, but I do think that you are in no position whatsoever to criticize the behavior of other editors. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:36, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
• I'm not going to say much, but I will say this. The "insults" linked above were already the subject of some admin shopping by Thuc, when none of the three admins they contacted were willing to block me the way he kept insisting they should. Also, I stand by my accusation that Thuc was lying in that thread. Thuc continued to insist that an admin never provided any evidence for a block, despite dozen of editors and more than a few admins pointing out that the admin in question has provided evidence multiple times. Not to mention the multiple times said admin provided evidence. So I don't, for one second, buy that Thuc honestly believed his claims in that thread to be true. No intelligent person could, and I have opined on more than one occasion that Thuc is an intelligent person. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 01:42, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
• Pants is one of a long list of editors that Thucydides411 follows around to hurl personal aspersions and attacks and to forum shop seeking sanctions and enforcement. Here's one gratuitous thread where Thuc bludgeons @Drmies: about some more-or-less ordinary comment Drmies made about Thuc's nemesis @Volunteer Marek:. I'll look for similar examples where Thuc goes after me, @MrX: and others. I won't say more without diffs. I will say that Thuc edits article talk and noticeboard pages nearly exclusively -- mainly either to attack other edtiors or to complain that WP is "no fair" essentially because we insist on representing the WEIGHT of mainstream sources, which don't happen to be the sources Thuc particularly respects. I would say that Thuc is WP:NOTHERE. SPECIFICO talk 01:49, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
• The longer this stays open, the more likely a BOOM. I suggest the filer withdraw and stop wasting editor time. Objective3000 (talk) 01:58, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
• The whole "you're not an idiot so don't talk like one" or whatever being a personal attack is silly. That entire thread on my talk page was silly too. I have not yet seen this editor's good side. Drmies (talk) 02:06, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Revoke talk page access for Megerflit

Since I got no response or had taken action from the admin who had blocked this user, I'm going to ask this here.

Can any admin revoke TPA privileges for Megerflit? Looking at the talk page, I see nothing but personal attacks and threats mainly directed at admins who are involved with this user; this user is certainly WP:NOTHERE. Thanks. theinstantmatrix (talk) 00:45, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

• Normally diffs are required as evidence, I'll just offer some select quotes;

• Why am I not astounded that the unbridled arrogance that is the hallmark of your nest of vipers would prevent you from recognizing any of my comments ... as wholly valid OBSERVATIONS about your conduct and procedures, and not just "ranting and insults"?
• Believe me, Shirley, had I honestly intended to "unload" on your squishy tribe of Wikignats, I fear they may have required intensive therapy and warm cocoa for months.
• You people really are twisted in your noggins if you honestly believe you acted in any kind of legitimate and effective manner throughout this exchange - Personal comment; Noggins? British editor? Nick Bougas is an American - Megerflit seems to claim to be Nick Bougas -, I don't know that I've ever heard of Americans using the word noggin before.
• You also seem to have a gigantic chip on your shoulder over being unpaid toadies ... maybe the company should toss your sniffy pack of prima donnas a little folding cash so you can quit taking out your suppressed rage impulses on the hapless Wiki subjects. - Personal comment: Umm, the sniffy pack of prima donnas bit is a bit rich, I mean come on.
• I can't help but suspect that therein lies the rub ... an unaccomplished slug with no social skills, who will undoubtedly never have a Wikipage of his own, is apparently drunk on being in the unique position to banish those who can handily see right through him.

• Oh, and all of the above, is just one comment.

• I would be happy to consider any evidence that Megerflit could provide of this though; I routinely received some real unhinged and nasty displays from your "collegial" colleagues. Mr rnddude (talk) 01:39, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

• This user also made a legal threat after this report is filed. theinstantmatrix (talk) 02:05, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

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