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Clarification request: Discretionary Sanctions

Initiated by Seraphim System at 20:22, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Seraphim System (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by Seraphim System

Does the awareness requirement need to be fulfilled before discretionary sanctions are applied?

When User:EdJohnston sanctioned me for a 1RR article in a topic area I was new to WP:ARBAA2, I was very surprised. I had not known that it was a DS topic area. I only later found out about the awareness requirements. When I asked him about he said "I believe I have correctly described the current practice regarding 1RR violations." - I am requesting clarification.

Here is the link to my discussion with the EdJohnston: User_talk:EdJohnston#Edit_Warring_block

I am requesting clarification of the DS procedure. I understand that there is no requirement to warn of individual editing restrictions, but I had not received any notice of discretionary sanctions in the topic area. I am requesting clarification of the following: No editor may be sanctioned unless they are aware that discretionary sanctions are in force for the area of conflict.

My understanding is that awareness under the formal criteria is required for the topic area before any discretionary sanctions are applied, but that notice of the individual restrictions on specific articles is not required by the decision. If User:EdJohnston's reading is correct, then I believe the summary of the Arbitration Decision at Awareness and alerts should be modified so editors are aware of this. Seraphim System 20:22, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

@Callanecc: Without going into too much detail, there was no long-term edit warring, I restored an NPOV template that was properly justified and needed to be in the article. I added a refimprove template after my citation needed tags were removed. This is what is being called "long term edit warring". If the block was for "long term edit warring" that would be extraordinary and even less justifiable, but this would not be the place to discuss it.

I understood this as a hasty and passing remark by an admin, who was sanctioning for a clear 1RR violation, but EdJohnston can say more about it. EdJohnston clearly stated that there was a 1RR violation, I understood it to be a 1RR violation and he continues to defend it as a 1RR violation. I thought what happened here was a good faith mistake that needed clarification, so admins and editors would know what was expected in the future.

Long story short, it is especially important in difficult topic areas that blocks are preventative and not punitive. Part of that is editor's awareness of the discretionary sanctions, because intentionally violating 1RR is fairly construed as an intent to continue editing disruptively. If I had been aware of the restrictions, I would have certainly respected them. Admins should not unilaterally modify what has been decided by an Arbitration decision, since most editors will not be aware of their unilateral standards, as I was not in this case. Certainly, the decision as stated should say what it means, and the admins trusted with enforcing it should respect that. But before proposing any modification, I would like to see if there is community consensus about its meaning.Seraphim System 01:33, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: My argument is exactly as you said - 1RR is part of discretionary sanctions. See this for example: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive188#Wiking - formal notice is required for 1RR. Even in cases where there are informal warnings. It has been discussed by the community and amended to clarify that formal notice is required. Can you explain what kinds of cases you think the DS warning template is for? AFAIK, AE has declined to sanction in 1RR cases like this.

(Where is the 1RR restriction logged btw? I can't find it here: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_enforcement_log#Armenia-Azerbaijan_2)

Seraphim System 02:48, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Ed has said he sanctioned for 1RR and has refused to even explain what "long term edit warring" is when I asked him under ADMINACCT so let's focus on 1RR - an editor didn't have notice, it wasn't logged as AE, and admins/arbs can't even agree on whether it is AE or not. What a mess for an editor to get caught up in. Please get this sorted out. A few points:

• The practical distinction between general sanctions and discretionary sanctions is that the rules are different. You would not want to punish editors who generally follow the rules because they did not know different rules were in effect for a particular page, right? That is what the notice requirement protects editors from.

• I see a lot of comments assuming that I deliberately violated a DS that I knew about, I did not. If you review the complaint at WP:ANS, I even comment on it the first time I see it and offer to self-revert if someone points out the edit. There was no prior discussion or anything, so please stop trying to pretend Ed's actions were routine here. To this day I don't understand how my edits were "long term edit warring" even though I asked for an explanation under ADMINACCT. Not following WP:BRD is not sanctionable. I understand that I violated 1RR, but I did not know the restriction was in effect on this article. These notice rules are in place to prevent abuses.

• I have a different color scheme on my browser, and I think my font was mint green at the time. The box looks green, so probably I did not see the notice. There could be a million reasons why an editor would not see this. If you rely on the editing notices alone, experienced editors are the most likely to get caught up in it. (Bad for Misplaced Pages.) I already know the rules, so I don't read the fine print on every article and it is not reasonable to expect this. That is why the formal notice requirement is important. (Because in controversial areas like this where discussion sometimes breaks down, the community has put in place extra precautions and procedures in place to prevent abuses.)

I think it does create some unfairness in areas where an editor has previously been active, but the amendment is clear that currently informal notice is not sufficient. Judging from the comments, there may be some will for modification.Seraphim System 23:38, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

@KrakatoaKatie: I didn't see it. Please compare it to the notices at ARBPIA with all the important stuff emphasized - I think there should be a template at the top of the talk page and the article page, and they should be in a consistent style. It doesn't benefit editors for the look/color of the templates to change from one conflict area to the other. All the DS notices should look the same. It is unhelpful when the same notices have different appearances on different articles. Experienced editors should not have to slow down to read different versions of the same notice they have read 50 times already. Most likely these issues have all come up in the past and ARBCOM decided that a formal warning for the topic area at a minimum was fair.Seraphim System 12:38, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

I have to also add that it is frustrating to be accused of lying, for no reason. I have managed to go all this time without a single 1RR sanction in ARBPIA. Most of my edits are constructive, including maintenance, vandalism patrol, pending changes review, AFC backlog, GA reviews, as well as just regular content creation. A 48 hour block for these edits?: - even if I had known, I would not have thought it was a 1RR violation, because of the near unanimous consensus among admins at AE that editing long-standing content does not count as a revert.Seraphim System 13:27, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

@BU Rob13: I can comment that I think even the topic area would be enough, but that it should be given before any DS are applied, including 1RR. The formal templates serve the purpose of making these types of problems less likely and keeping editors cool when working on difficult articles. Editors understandably get upset, some have quit, etc. When I know an area is under discretionary sanctions, I am more careful - I look around to see if there are templates or special notices, I edit more slowly. Generally, we want editors to slow down and edit more carefully in these topic areas, and the formal warnings topic area warnings are usually enough to achieve this. There are a lot of DS topic areas, I don't know all of them, and I don't want to live in fear that I may accidentally edit an article on GMO for example, and get hit with a DS with no warning and no discussion. I do think the font being larger, and the article restrictions being clearly stated, and the individual pages being more consistently templated in some of the less active areas would also help. But the warning comes first, editors should know they are editing in a topic area where pages may have special restrictions.Seraphim System 15:04, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

• @Doug Weller: The block absolutely was not reasonable, and you almost lost an editor for it, but if I had been asking for you opinion on the block I would have filed a desysop request. There seems to be consensus that the current rules did require a formal warning for at least the topic area. It sounds like you support modifying the current warning system - I don't support it and that was not my intention filing this. I would only support making the protections for editors stronger, I do not support weakening them. I wanted clarification on the current system - it seems patently clear, as the discussion has turned to modifying the awareness requirement, instead of clarifying it, there was an awareness requirement and what Ed told me under ADMINACCT was incorrect.
• If you have not please read my comment to User:BU Rob13 above on why the awareness requirement is important. No editor has asked for it to be modified and I don't think the proposal will receive community support. If a modification is going to be proposed, this should be discussed with the community in a formal proposal, not as a side matter in a clarification request.Seraphim System 21:16, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

• To summarize my position, I think that the current awareness requirement would have been enough to avoid the issue that arose in this case. I have never missed an editing notice when I have been aware of DS in a topic area. I don't think increased page-level notification is necessary and I am not asking for it. A topic area warning would have been sufficient to avoid this block. I'm not persuaded of the wisdom of trying to fix something that isn't broken. That wasn't my intent asking for clarification, I only want to know that I can rely on receiving proper notification of DS when I am editing in a new topic area, so I am aware that I should edit more cautiously if I edit about "Ancient Egyptian race controversy" or the "Shakespeare authorship question" for example. Seraphim System 22:20, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

Most articles are under WP:3RR enforcement, but a few have been placed under WP:1RR as mentioned in the WP:Edit warring policy. This kind of a restriction is attached to a page and applies to all editors of the page. 1RR can be imposed either (a) directly by Arbcom as in WP:ARBPIA3, (b) by individual administrators under WP:AC/DS or (c) by the community as in WP:GS/ISIL. The type (b) restrictions are described in WP:AC/DS#Page restrictions. Under the argument of User:Seraphim System, nobody could be blocked for a 1RR violation for type (b) article restrictions unless they had previously been alerted to discretionary sanctions under whatever decision was used originally to place the 1RR on the page. I take it he assumes he is only under WP:3RR until he gets this notice. This is a novel idea but I'm pretty sure there is no written-down policy that backs it up. I have never alerted Seraphim System to the ARBAA2 decision and I also believe I've never imposed a discretionary sanction on him. I did issue a block per WP:AN3 for violation of the existing 1RR at Armenian Genocide that was imposed by User:Moreschi on 27 January, 2008, as well as for a pattern of long-term edit warring. EdJohnston (talk) 02:28, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

In response to Seraphim System's question about logging, here is where Moreschi logged the 2008 1RR on Armenian Genocide. EdJohnston (talk) 03:38, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Brustopher

Checking Seraphim System's block log, he was blocked for violating 1RR on the Armenian Genocide page. When somebody edits that page, the following attention grabbing and clearly visible notice appears: Template:Editnotices/Page/Armenian Genocide It is therefore close to impossible that anyone would be able to edit that page without realising it's covered by DS and 1RR. Failing to read such a massive attention grabbing notice would indicate competency issues. In my opinion the issue here is this: The Rules require that anyone hit by a DS sanction receive an individual notification beforehand. The rule exists for reasons of fairness. People shouldnt be sanctioned under rules they dont realise exist. But the above edit notice makes it practically impossible for a competent editor to be unaware that page sanctions exist. In such circumstances letting someone off the hook because they didn't receive a DS notice would be letting them off on a technicality. Brustopher (talk) 10:29, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by SMcCandlish on DS

Yet another example of why DS is malfunctional. We were promised another review of DS and how it works/should work over two years ago (and haven't had one since 2013). This "notice" system is deeply broken. While I've recently commented on the WP:GAMING problems inherent in it (people damned well aware of the DS and deeply involved in the topic can escape sanctions for gross disruption simply on the technicality of not having received a notice or their notice having expired), this request raises an equal-but-opposite concern, that gibberish notices someone assumes were understood or even seen may not be by editors new to the topic. This whole thing needs to be scrapped in favor of actual discretion: is the user someone who just now wandered into the topic and did a business-as-usual WP:BRD revert, or is this someone with a long pattern of being an asshat across a swath of related pages?

For an in-depth analysis of issues raised in the last DS review, see User:SMcCandlish/Discretionary sanctions 2013–2018 review. Over three years after the original November 2015 draft of it, nothing has changed (permalink to full discussion) which made most of WP:ARBATC moot and unenforceable].
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ<  18:58, 22 December 2017‎ (UTC)

I fully support the idea of a bot notifying editors after they've substantively edited a page covered by DS. This would solve a lot of problems. See some recent previous discussion of this idea and how to go about getting it voted on (ping: JoJo Eumerus).

This should probably be done in an "after X number of edits totaling at least Y bytes of changes within Z amount of time" manner, to prevent typo-fixing gnomes and the like getting DS notices about virtually every DS-affected topic as they go about their cleanup work. (And don't "advertise" the algorithm, just leave it buried in code somewhere, per WP:BEANS and WP:GAMING, or bad-acting parties will just time their edits to skirt it. Maybe even change its timing periodically.) Sufficient substantive edits

Any edits should, however, trigger the bot regardless whether they were made to the article or its talk page, since way more than half the DS-applicable disruption happens on talk pages rather than through direct in-article editwarring.

Also, the {{Ds/alert}} template needs an overhaul to be less menacing and in plainer English. Right now it looks like a dire warning/threat (which is why people react to it as one about 99% of the time), and it makes no sense to anyone but ArbCom policy wonks. Maybe open a page for redesigning it and invite people from Teahouse, and other "editor retention" and "welcoming committee" pages, and Misplaced Pages talk:Template messages/User talk namespace, for some consultation on this. It's not like this is the first time we've needed to get a message across without scaring or angering people.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ<  02:26, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Redaction. I've struck an idea above after thinking on it longer, for reasons explained at the related AE thread in this post. (Also pinging Jo-Jo Eumerus.) The short version: ArbCom and AE have unwaveringly maintained that {{Ds/alert}} is nothing but an awareness notice. No harm can come from simply being made aware that a page one might edit again is covered by DS. If you edit the page, you get the notice, period. Simple, no room for doubt or error, and we'll become so used to them so quickly any perception of them as menacing will go away.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ<  11:08, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

PS: This is the typical reaction to even going out of one's way to explain that one does not like the DS template one is leaving and doesn't like that ArbCom requires them. Twice I've had people attempt to WP:ANI or WP:AE me simply for leaving them a {{Ds/alert}} at all. The only viable solution other than the bot proposal – or (as I've suggested many times) scrapping this farcical system completely – is to create a page for requesting delivery of {{Ds/alerts}} by uninvolved admins, at which the requests will be carried out in a timely manner and on good-faith assumption – pretty much exactly like how WP:RM/TR works. There is no harm – that's the central premise, anyway – in simply being made aware of something. If people freak out when regular editors make them aware of DS, then either an artificial or an administrative party needs to do it without any interest in the underlying dispute or who the parties are.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ<  10:36, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by NeilN

Looking at the first two arb comments below, is there a reason why we're distinguishing between the processes of discretionary sanctions and general sanctions? WP:GS/SCW&ISIL reads "In addition a one revert rule, which does not require notice..." --NeilN 19:11, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

• Just a note to say that average inexperienced editor has no idea what is the difference between discretionary and general sanctions. I doubt most experienced editors do, either. If awareness of restrictions before sanctions are imposed is considered to be a "fairness" issue, I strongly suggest Arbcom/the community synchronize the requirements for both types of sanctions. --NeilN 22:03, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Coffee

It is ArbCom policy that page restrictions do not require a talk-page warning, as the editnotice warning does the job. As these edits were not done on a mobile device, the user who opened this is fully aware of that. As can be verified by clicking edit on the article. I wouldn't think Arbitrators were unaware of this, considering they wrote it (sanctions.page) to state:

Any uninvolved administrator may impose on any page or set of pages relating to the area of conflict semi-protection, full protection, move protection, revert restrictions, and prohibitions on the addition or removal of certain content (except when consensus for the edit exists). Editors ignoring page restrictions may be sanctioned by any uninvolved administrator. The enforcing administrator must log page restrictions they place.

Best practice is to add editnotices to restricted pages where appropriate, using the standard template ({{ds/editnotice}}).

If it has been found sufficient in all the previous ARCA's I can recall about this, I imagine Arbs wouldn't change this rule suddenly for administrators now. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 20:11, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

@DGG: @Callanecc: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, since you've already commented below (seemingly without the realization that ArbCom wrote the policy to be used exactly as Ed used it here). — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 20:14, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

@Callanecc: Then why was this not stipulated at the last ARCA I'm clearly referring to? — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 02:09, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

@Callanecc: Perhaps a motion to add something to the effect of "if an editnotice is used to alert editors of active page restrictions, and the editor has not been previously warned (in the required time frame), administrators should allow the editor at least 5-20 minutes to undo their offending edit(s) prior to being blocked or otherwise sanctioned" to the alerts section of WP:AC/DS? — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 03:28, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

@Callanecc: I rather like that one too... would definitely clear this up finally. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 03:45, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

@Callanecc: I refuse to sanction editors who are shown to be using the mobile or visual editors (this is always tagged in the history). Can we not make this an official policy until the devs fix that issue with warnings? Something to the order of: "if the offending edit is tagged as a mobile or Visual edit, administrators should not block for more than 24 hours unless the editor's knowledge of the page restrictions is clearly established"? Or would it be better to wait on the developers to have the notice more prominent in those two GUIs? — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 18:18, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

My biggest concern obviously is that putting it into written form makes it rather easier to game the DS system. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 18:19, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

I will note I disagree with the use of green for any ArbCom editnotice. I was under the impression we could only use {{ds/editnotice}} anyways, is that not correct Doug Weller, Callanecc, Krakatoa Katie? — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 22:30, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Galobtter

First of all, until WP:AC/DS is changed, he had to be notified of the topic level sanctions before being sanctioned. Second of all, a talk page notice is definitely not enough, especially if not in standard color. They are there for lots of reasons - many BLP articles have notices that unsourced statements must be removed immediately etc, so I mostly ignore them. Third of all, any concerns about gaming can be resolved by quickly alerting users who edit the area. @Brustopher, editing Taylor Swift has a similar sort of notice, except it is for explaining BLP policy. I think a topic level notice should be enough to enforce page level restrictions, as it alerts that one must read edit notices in that area carefully. Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:10, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Regarding bot could place a notice on an editor's talk page after their first edit to a page under discretionary sanctions seems like a decent idea, if possible. My thinking is that the more alerts are placed, the more they become like they're supposed to be - neutral alerts, not alerts to be placed after a violation has occurred. This could be also manually done, using a script to see if someone has been alerted before and for what, so that people, when they notice someone doing a few edits in an area, can easily see if an alert is needed to be placed and do it. As an aside, definitely need to up the size of the "this does not mean anything bad" portion of the ds/alert template by like 5 times, otherwise there'll be loads of complaints if a bot is done. Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:31, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

@Thryduulf: Makes sense. @Opabinia regalis: may just want to make it "semi-automated" - using script to make it a lot easier and a lot more common to put alerts. Galobtter (pingó mió) 12:16, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Darkfrog24

While I don't know Seraphim specifically, it is absolutely possible to scroll right past a notice of discretionary sanctions on a project talk page and have no idea that it's there, especially if you were working on that talk page before it was placed and already in the habit of scrolling past the top to read new threads. This might be a separate problem, but even after reading the page on discretionary sanctions, it's still not clear what they are, how they work or what the editors are supposed to do about it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:35, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by DHeyward

From a practical standpoint, AE actions are intended to stop longterm abuse. The project shouldn't collapse due to the time it takes for an AE warning. This isn't vandalism. Nor does it require immediate action. If it did, there are other rules in place to get immediate action. Secondly, if a warning achieves its goal of stopping long-term abuse, then it has done its job and is much preferred to arguing over a sanction and whether a notice was given. The rush to apply a sanction is misguided and a form of "gotcha" abuse when it's very clear that any AE sanction can afford to wait until individual notice is given. No admin should invoke an AE sanction without being able to provide a diff of the listed methods of notification listed in the standard AE/DS procedure (no, an article talk page banner is not one of the notifications allowed). There is much confusion about who can place talk page notices and what they mean. It is simply not sufficient or necessary to rely on them. Asking admins to provide the notification diff is part of the heavy lifting necessary to implement a virtually irreversible long-term sanction. If they can't or won't, then it's not worth invoking an AE sanction. --DHeyward (talk) 20:17, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by isaacl

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#aware.aware lists the precise number of ways an editor can be informed of discretionary sanctions. An edit page notice is not one of the listed methods. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#aware.alert specifies the precise method to be used to alert an editor. isaacl (talk) 05:39, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by slakr

I noticed some discussion below about wanting more input re: alerts and such (e.g., from @BU Rob13:). Typically I've interpreted ACDS and alerting, particularly when it comes to edit warring as it pops up on WP:AN3, as follows:

• If a page already has an ACDS sanction attached to it (e.g., a standard 1RR), I look first to see if there's an edit notice to that effect. If it's only on the talk page or absent entirely, I assume (in absense of anything else) someone might not be aware of it, so if they breach it without any other form of notification or evidence of awareness of the sanction, I typically just add an edit notice myself, send any incidental {{Alert}}s, and wait to see what happens. If there already is an edit notice (and it's been there since whatever breach happened), I've assumed that's fair game for blocking anyone breaching it, regardless of whether they've ever received an Alert in the topic area—though I don't apply any additional editor-level sanctions. For example, if someone violates a 1RR page-level restriction and they clearly should have seen the edit notice but haven't otherwise gotten an ACDS alert, nothing other than a relatively short-term block might come of it, but they'll still get an {{Alert}} from me as part of the package in case they decide to continue the dispute on other subject-area articles.
• If a person doesn't have an ACDS {{Alert}} in the past year and they're involved in an edit war (for example) on an ACDS-able page, regardless of whether the page has active sanctions or not, I typically add an {{Alert}} to the user and wait to see what happens. Therefore, if they edit war on a page that doesn't have an explicit ACDS restriction, is within the topic area, and they HAVE been Alerted, they might get a topic-wide 1RR restriction (but might not even get blocked).
• Regardless of ACDS applicability, if someone's obviously edit warring despite usual, non-ACDS warnings, they get blocked regularly (as a non-AE action).

So the general idea is that edit notices and user-talk-page {{Alert}}s, if "not seen" by someone, are assume-bad-faith within their respective domains (i.e., edit notice for page-level sanctions and page-level enforcement of those sanctions; user Alert template for user-level sanctions/topic-wide sanctions applied to a user). Someone doesn't need both an edit notice on the page AND an alert; it's just too difficult, in my opinion, for people to "accidentally ignore" either the obvious "you have messages" or the "stop! there's an active sanction" edit notices, while it's entirely possible for someone who's even been Alerted to not see the talk-page notice of "hey, there are sanctions for the page attached to this talk page." Thus, a single-page-level sanction (and enforcement action taken in response) are presumed "notified," most reliably, through that page's edit notice, while broad, topic-wide, user-level sanctions (and actions taken in response) are presumed "notified," most reliably, through prior Alert templating and/or recent participation in AE-type discussions in the topic area.

Hopefully that helps? If I'm screwing it up, please let me know whatever you guys decide. :P

--slakr 23:16, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

@Opabinia regalis: Naturally I kinda like the idea of a bot re: automatically alerting, too, but there are a couple of hitches I can imagine off-hand (i.e., things I'd raise to an operator before trialling a WP:BRFA):

• It can be a a little complicated to figure out when/if the person truly got alerted previously (or if they meet the "participated in an AE on the topic" portion). There's an edit filter to tag the alert, but if an alert already exists on the page (even if over a year old or in a different topic), the filter might not catch it, plus someone might later clear their talk page, etc.... That said, going forward, if everyone was okay with that minor dumbness in the bot to begin with (e.g., someone possibly getting 2 alerts within a year or something), it might not be as big of an issue in the long run. There's just the appearance of a bright-line with a lot of arb topics, and the Alert template's edit notice (sorry; confusing; "the edit notice alert that pops up when you try to use the Alert template to notify a user") has the perception that "you'll be doing a bad thing" if you over-alert, which is understandable, but also causes like me reviewing a bot to get much stricter with someone wanting to run one.
• Page-level restrictions might be complex and aren't necessarily reference-able by a bot in a unified manner, except perhaps in edit notices. {{Ds/editnotice}} can be used, but then there are also atypical ones like {{ArbCom Arab-Israeli editnotice}} and {{Editnotice GMO 1RR}} and others that might be out in the wild (I believe Callanecc might have felt my pain with dealing with some of these a while back. :P) Case-by-case exceptions could be made for the broad topics, but it might get awkward on the non-standard/free-form sanctions (e.g., 1RR in the context of specific content). Plus, there have been cases where an admin adds a sanction just as a new section on the talk page(!) and you have to play hide-and-seek in the archives to find it (or not find it if one never existed and someone just slipped in the template in the talk header). Either way, in my opinion, an edit notice should be the standard go-to for where a sanction lives, even moreso if a bot's going to be parsing through them.
• Changes to the sanctions on the page might(?) need to prompt subsequent bot messages for the user. For example, say a page starts with a "1RR over content pertaining to his birthday" but then moves to "1RR across the page," would the broader one need implicit followup alerts? The bot would need to track or be aware of that.
• Bots aren't always reliable, and reliance on them for critical notifications may be problematic.
• Bot notification can sometimes be seen as bitey or annoying in general. Even with SineBot people have complained about {{tilde}} or {{unsigned}}, and thankfully I can just say sofixit or "discuss on the talk page," but arb templates are more locked down.

For active page-level sanctions it still makes sense to me to have and standardize around an obvious edit notice, and if someone disables their edit notices, it still seems the onus should still be on them (I mean, if you close your eyes, you still have to stop at the stop sign, even if you don't see it). That said, if edit notices aren't being shown in different UIs to begin with, I feel that's a major problem anyway that should be addressed as a loss of functionality (might need to open a ticket if it's not in our hands to modify it locally).

Apart from the bot thing, though, I've noticed that even people involved in disputes on a page that's clearly under an ACDS topic frequently don't, themselves, use the {{Alert}} (et al) templates, quite possibly because they're otherwise obscure and buried deep within policy pages, and the ACDS topics themselves require a level of conscious searching and discovery + familiarity. Plus, most disputes seem to erupt over simple text issues instead of technical features or templates (once more, the audience isn't necessarily template, policy, or community savvy; doubly so with the mass-popularity topics like American Politics and BLP). So it usually take someone with a lot of experience who's ALSO conscious of what all the active DS topics are AND how to act on them to actually break out the alerts equally and without inflaming the situation, by which point a lot of anger, frustration, and disruption may have already taken place. In that sense, the more automated (or more passive but still unmissable) the alerting process could be, likely the better.

So I dunno. I still think it's a relatively safe/sane balance to have two domains of alerts (e.g., page-level = passive edit notice before taking action, topic-wide = actively {{Alert}} before taking action), but I'm pretty sure someone would be able to make a bot if that route wants to be tried, too.

--slakr 02:23, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by John Carter

I know that there are talk page templates which add a form of warning box to the edit box. Someone doing a vandalism revert wouldn't see that of course, but might we rig up some template to add some form of 1RR warning to a contested article, and, maybe, also rig it to give a warning on a revert? John Carter (talk) 23:10, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Sidecomment about bots for alerts by JJE

Seeing as Opabinia has wondered about using bots for sending out alerts, there is a mini-conversational thread on WT:AE involving me, SMcCandlish and Thryduulf regarding this; the main counterpoint raised is that having a bot alert everyone making a typofix or something similarly minor may be problematic. I am too sleepy to post the "pro" arguments here, sorry. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 22:07, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Thryduulf (re DS)

@Opabinia regalis: The problem is that when delivered to people who aren't actually editing the content (fixing typos, rescuing dead links, template parameter errors, etc, etc) such alerts will either be seen as meaningless spam (and spamming people is never a good thing) or scare new editors away, and anyone who gets an alert while copyediting and later edits content in the area will be formally aware (they've received an alert) but not actually aware as they will likely have ignored the (then) irrelevant message. I encourage you to read and contribute to the linked discussion (and look at previous discussions too) as there are very good reasons why bot delivery to everybody has been rejected previously, and until we get AI-level bots that can accurately distinguish someone engaging with the content from someone copyediting from someone fixing templates from someone engaging in subject-irrelevant vandalism then we need humans to determine who alerts are relevant to and who they aren't. Thryduulf (talk) 12:07, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by GoldenRing

I disagree with those who say editors should be notified of individual page restrictions before being sanctioned, because the result of such a rule is perverse. DS authorise admins to take any action they consider necessary for the smooth running of the project up to and including a 1 year block, so long as the editor is formally aware of the DS in place. So an editor who makes two disruptive reverts in a day can be sanctioned by an admin... unless there is a page-level 1RR restriction in place, in which case an extra notification is needed? As I say, that seems a perverse outcome. GoldenRing (talk) 22:00, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Kingsindian

I do not have much comment on most aspects of this request, but I can give my own experience: I basically never notice edit notices. I have edited for a long time in ARBPIA and my mind just filters them out. I think EdJohnston's block was reasonable, but not blocking would also have been reasonable. In discretionary sanctions areas, unfortunately everyone (including admins) tend to become cynical. If Seraphim System says that they didn't see the notice, it would have been easy enough to warn them for their first offence.

My feeling is that the warning system doesn't really need to be changed (this case was a bit unusual). But I don't have any strong opinions either way. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 06:34, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by TonyBallioni (DS)

Rob, just a brief statement on the motion regarding awareness. While you’re at it, it might make sense to remove the bit about not being aware of sanctions if you have successfully appealed a sanction: that’s pretty counterintuitive. Anyone who has gone through the dramah that is a DS appeal is more than aware that sanctions exist. If the last line contradicts it by saying they’re aware if they’ve appealed all there sanctions, it also seems like unnecessary extra verbiage. Not really related to the general part of this thread, but since your amending it, you might as well consider another simplification at the same time. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:49, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Discretionary Sanctions: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Discretionary Sanctions: Arbitrator views and discussion

• Looking at your block log and the WP:AELOG, Ed's block wasn't an arbitration enforcement action enforcing 1RR but a normal admin block for edit warring. In fact in his comment on AN3 he says that you had engaged in long-term edit warring.

  Having said that, it's probably worth having a discussion on whether editors need to/should be individually notified about page-level sanctions before being sanctioned. If memory serves, I think (and this is testing my memory) that the original intention was that editors would not be sanctioned without previous notice.^ However, in practice, this hasn't been the case with admins sanctioning editors who breach page-level sanctions without prior notice (this is particularly the case for 1RR). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:57, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

^ In the original version (1) of the 'new' system, edit notices alone were going to be considered enough to make an editor sufficiently "aware" of page-level restrictions. However, in consultation discussions about it, this was rejected and removed in the second version of the draft (see (this summary). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:56, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

• There are a lot of comments here about what decisions have been made in the past and contradictory decisions at that. I'd suggest to all those who are commenting that evidence of these past decisions (links) is needed, nor vague recollections. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 20:53, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
• @NeilN: Regarding a difference between those specific general sanctions and discretionary sanctions in general. The SCW&ISIL general sanctions were modelled on WP:ARBPIA3 which specifically included language about 1RR applying and that, in that topic area, editors could be blocked for 1RR vios without prior notice. That is, in both circumstances, blocking without notice was specifically approved by the Committee or community. Another difference is that under the discretionary sanctions system an alert expires after a year, whereas with the SCW&ISIL general sanction the notification doesn't expire. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 21:00, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
• @Coffee: Nothing in the bit of WP:AC/DS you quoted says that the requirements of the Awareness and alerts section does not apply to the enforcement of page-level restrictions. In fact, neither the section on individual sanctions nor the section on page-level restrictions state that an editor is required to be "aware" because the Awareness section says No editor may be sanctioned unless they are aware that discretionary sanctions are in force for the area of conflict. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:56, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Only that I didn't think of it then, I was actually looking at the 2013 review page earlier this year for something else so the memories of a previous discussion about edit notices it was relatively fresh. Looking back at threads on arbcom-l from the the AP2 ARCA it looks like the committee was discussing amending AC/DS to make it clear that editors could be sanctioned without being "aware" if there was an edit notice, but that either there wasn't enough of a consensus to do it, or that something else happened and we got distracted. Given the time of year, this might be a motion which the new ArbCom will need to consider. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:28, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
    • I don't think anything so specific is going to work. I'm not a big fan of giving editors a specific time limit to do something, as it can com across as an aggressive ultimatum, plus we're volunteers and there's no deadline. Consider a situation where a user makes an edit which they didn't know was violating, goes to sleep, wakes up and goes to work, then logs in to find themselves blocked). Plus any sort of time limit (IMHO) pushes it a little towards punitive rather than preventative. I'm thinking more along the lines the following as a new paragraph in either the awareness or page restrictions sections (not sure which would be best yet, though I'm leaning towards §awareness:

Uninvolved administrators may use their discretion to issue #sanctions (such as blocks or page/topic bans) of no more than one week in duration to editors who breach page restrictions but are not #aware of discretionary sanctions as prescribed above if the page in question includes an edit notice, using the standard template ({{ds/editnotice}}), which specifies the page-level restriction in force. This does not prevent administrators using the full range of #Sanctions against editors who do meet the #awareness criteria.

It needs a little wordsmithing. Note that # = link to the section on ACDS. This way, we're giving admins an ability to enforce page-level restrictions without an individual editor needing to be have been alerted (or otherwise aware) but not allowing them to impose any sanction without the editor being properly made aware. Otherwise, we're effectively creating a loop hole where any discretionary sanction can be imposed on an editor without them meeting the awareness criteria as soon as they breach a page-level restriction. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:43, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

• @BU Rob13: There isn't really a problem with you commenting in this section. It's really only formal decisions (e.g. motions, declining request) where there's an issue.
  I'm a little conflicted on that, I think it's important for editors to be aware of restrictions before they are sanctioned. However, even if an editor recessive an alert it's still very likely that they won't be aware of specific page-level restrictions as the notice they receive on their talk page doesn't tell them that. So, given that, the only way to ensure that they are aware is to give them an alert and tell them about page-specific restrictions in place. That's not really a sustainable approach both in terms of logging and administrative hoops to jump through, but it is my preference from a editor point of view.
  From an administrator and as someone who was very active with AE my preference would be that if the article has an edit notice the editor can be sanctioned (regardless of whether they've received a notice). The problem with that approach is that it's easily missed using VisualEditor and edit notices don't appear at all in the mobile version.
  So, I'm still on the fence. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:05, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
• To add (re BU Rob13), my preference is that an editor would both be aware of the discretionary sanction in the topic area (through an alert or otherwise) and that the page in question had an edit notice (plus, given the technical limitations, weren't using a mobile device). That, to me, seems to be best way to ensure that an editor is aware of the restrictions which are in place. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 04:16, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

• I too cannot see how it is reasonable to apply page-level DS without individual warning. Our system for DS is sufficiently complicated that at the very least fairness require full notice. . DGG ( talk ) 05:35, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

since I was asked for my general view. I personally consider the system of AE inherently unfair, unreasonable, and erratic. I have never participated in it as an admin, and I would advise other admins to use it only when there is no other solution. Unfortunately I cannot find an alternative, so all we can do at the moment is try to minimize harm. At least we can require explicit notice. DGG ( talk ) 04:18, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

I've modified my position based on the convoluted nature of discussions on this page in the last 2 weeks. I no longer support the use at AE at all. The system is too complicated, unclear, and inflexible. Though I still have no suggestion for a replacement, the first thing to try is to see if we can do without it entirely. DGG ( talk ) 18:40, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

• I agree with DGG that the entire discretionary sanctions and general sanctions systems is a mess. We should take a hard look at their wording and implementation, because I believe it is inherently unfair to sanction an editor if that editor is unaware of a possible penalty. The burden is on us as administrators to make sure an editor is aware, as unwieldy and burdensome as that is, and we need to make it as simple as possible in order for the system to work. I'm no coder, and I don't know if this is possible, but maybe a bot could place a notice on an editor's talk page after their first edit to a page under discretionary sanctions. Or perhaps an 'are you sure?' box like the one that comes up when we try to give the DS alert on a user talk page.

In terms of the specifics here, Seraphim System made fifteen edits to the page in question in just over 48 hours. It strains credulity that he didn't see the 1RR edit notice with that many edits. I could possibly believe it if this were three edits, but fifteen? It's even got a hidden comment that appears directly under the places where he added his maintenance tags. Does he need bright flashing lights and sirens? Katie 11:37, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

• @Coffee: It is my understanding that the DS notice is required to be posted as it is in the template, and that color modification (or any modification other than the topic area) is not allowed. Katie 03:42, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

• The block seems reasonable. I see the problem with VE and mobile devices, but I still think that an edit notice should be sufficient. I'm sure we can improve the system but my experience is that DS in general is avoiding a lot of problems we'd have without the system. Doug Weller talk 15:33, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Given the comment by Seraphim System about the color scheme perhaps it could have been missed, so I’ll have to reconsider my comment. Doug Weller talk 22:15, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
    • I think we should consider Callanecc's suggested wording. Doug Weller talk 16:14, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
• @DGG and Callanecc: Could you clarify whether you think just notification of discretionary sanctions in the topic area is necessary before sanction or notification of the specific page-level sanctions on each individual page? How does this opinion interact with the prominent edit notices typically used on articles under sanction? Would a notification of topic area sanctions in addition to an edit notice about the page-level sanctions be considered sufficient notification? Note I'm asking about what you think should be, not what you think is current practice/policy. Opinions from any other editors would also be appreciated. ~ Rob₁₃ 05:13, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
  • As a procedural note, the Committee has no authority to modify general sanctions, which derive solely from the community. If we decide to alter the awareness requirements for discretionary sanctions, the most we can do is encourage the community to adopt the same changes. Having said that, I think we need to seriously think about what the right standard of awareness is. Should an editor have to be actually aware of a page-level restriction to be sanctioned, or should they only need to have been in a position such that a reasonable editor of limited experience would be aware? For instance, if a particularly oblivious editor misses a massive edit notice with giant font saying "This article is under 1RR" (with appropriate wikilinks to explain), should they be sanctioned if they violate that restriction? As for the technical issues (mobile browsers, mostly), that is something we can presumably refer to the WMF to develop a fix. It would be technically doable to display edit notices in mobile browsers on a page prior to the edit window. ~ Rob₁₃ 14:46, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Here's my take on current policy and practice, for what it's worth. WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts makes clear that at least a topic area-level notice must be issued before sanctioning under discretionary sanctions. A page restriction derived from discretionary sanctions can only be enforced via discretionary sanctions, so this same awareness requirement exists before sanctioning someone for violating a page restriction. Currently, there is no requirement (in policy or in practice) requiring an additional notice of a page restriction before sanctioning an editor for violating it. There's no policy requirement for edit notices, etc., but in practice, we do expect administrators to place them. The conversation on changes to this policy should probably take place at a different venue with community feedback. As for this particular block, Seraphim System hadn't been notified of discretionary sanctions in this topic area, so he should not have been sanctioned. ~ Rob₁₃ 01:29, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
• Since it should be possible technically to place individual notices, there is no reason not to do so. DGG ( talk ) 01:31, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
• If there's a legitimate doubt that an editor was aware that a restriction was in place, then better practice is to warn rather than block for a violation of that restriction—unless the edit was such as to be independently blockable in any case. We have had instances (I'm not opining on whether this is one) in which an editor was blocked and sincerely had no idea why; it is important that that should not happen. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:14, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
• Focusing for a second on the original question, are we all agreed that at a minimum an editor cannot be sanctioned under page restrictions deriving from discretionary sanctions unless they've met the awareness criteria for that DS topic area? ~ Rob₁₃ 02:03, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
  • I am, but I'd like to add (by motion) that there also needs to be an edit notice on the article (with a footnote that admins should consider that the footnote doesn't appear when using a mobile device). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:42, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
    • I've started working on a draft at User:Callanecc/sandbox2. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:06, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
• OK, I've caught up on all the other ARCAs except this one, so I guess I can't avoid it anymore. This is thinking-out-loud as I'm catching up on the background reading; read it if you like arbs showing their work and skip it if you don't like long-ass posts ;)
  • My first reaction to all of this follows DGG and Katie's reactions that AE/DS is kind of a mess, and not only because it's unpredictable from editors' perspective but also because it must be seriously tiresome to be an admin on the receiving end of all the wikilaywering. This is not the only recent issue that centers on someone objecting to a short block and one way to manage that problem is to just deescalate the perceived significance of blocks. I'm perfectly happy to get blocked some more if necessary ;)
  • Slakr is definitely on the right track in not expecting that talk-page banners are sufficient to alert editors of the actual article. But in terms of editnotices on the article itself... I hate editnotices. Hate. For a long time I used a userscript to automatically hide them because there are so many and they're so bloated and they take up so much space on my little 11" laptop screen. (Obviously, I did not obey the one on this page that says "be succinct" ;) While I'm sure every incremental addition to every editnotice on the project seemed important and useful at the time, cumulative banner blindness is a real problem. There's also the issue Callanecc points out - editnotices are formatted differently, and often hard to read, and sometimes may not appear at all for editors using the Visual Editor or the 2017 source editor, and they're unavailable on the mobile site (and the mobile app?). Also, the edit tags indicating which editor someone used aren't perfectly reliable either, so not really a good way to judge whether someone "should" have seen a notice. In general, editnotices are not reliable methods for communicating information to editors. I was under the impression we'd already decided this once, but when I went back to look at the incident I was thinking of, the conclusion was almost the opposite of what I thought I remembered. (And for my own part, I see I was more concerned with a different aspect of AE/DS enforcement I consider problematic. I was unaware at the time of the "consultation discussion" Callanecc linked above.)
  • That being said, it is also obviously impractical for some editors on an article to be under the impression that they are working in a 3RR environment, and others to be subject to 1RR (because they've received the appropriate individual DS alerts, rather than because they personally are under an editing restriction). The best solution I can think of is a bot sending out automated alerts to the talk pages of editors to an article subject to a 1RR restriction, but I had the impression that had been considered before and decided against (either because no one wants to write the bot, or because of practical limitations that aren't immediately coming to mind).
  • Overall I think Callanecc's sandbox version is better than what we have now, but more broadly, I think the current mechanisms aren't effective in communicating restrictions to editors and are asking admins to do a lot of manual checking before sanctioning someone under those restrictions. Unless I'm missing an obvious drawback, I think we should revisit the bot-notification method. Opabinia regalis (talk) 21:57, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
    • Jo-Jo Eumerus, thanks. I actually think that's a feature, not a bug :) When the existing alerts come from specific other editors, people tend to react to them as if they're aggressive acts or personal affronts. If everybody and their mother gets one, and they come from DSBot, they're less personal. (I assume the bot could deliver just one notice per topic.) Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:39, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
    • Thanks for the follow-ups - this is a bit of a side point, since a change of that scale would be better discussed somewhere other than the middle of an ARCA, but I'll go read the other discussion in the meantime. Opabinia regalis (talk) 02:36, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Discretionary Sanctions: Motion

For this motion there are 13 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 7 support or oppose votes are a majority.

The Page restrictions section of the discretionary sanctions procedure is modified to the following:

Any uninvolved administrator may impose on any page or set of pages relating to the area of conflict page protection, revert restrictions, prohibitions on the addition or removal of certain content (except when consensus for the edit exists), or any other reasonable measure that the enforcing administrator believes is necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project. The enforcing administrator must log page restrictions they place.

Enforcing administrators must add an editnotice to restricted pages, using the standard template ({{ds/editnotice}}), and should add a notice to the talk page of restricted pages.

Editors who ignore or breach page restrictions may be sanctioned by any uninvolved administrator provided that, at the time the editor ignored or breached a page restriction:

1. The editor was aware of discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict, and
2. There was an editnotice ({{ds/editnotice}}) on the restricted page which specified the page restriction.

Editors using mobile devices may not see edit notices. Administrators should consider whether an editor was aware of the page restriction before sanctioning them.

The Awareness section of the discretionary sanctions procedure is modified to the following:

No editor may be sanctioned unless they are aware that discretionary sanctions are in force for the area of conflict. An editor is aware if:

1. They were mentioned by name in the applicable Final Decision; or
2. They have ever been sanctioned within the area of conflict (and at least one of such sanctions has not been successfully appealed); or
3. In the last twelve months, the editor has given and/or received an alert for the area of conflict; or
4. In the last twelve months, the editor has participated in any process about the area of conflict at arbitration requests or arbitration enforcement; or
5. In the last twelve months, the editor has successfully appealed all their own sanctions relating to the area of conflict.

There are additional requirements in place when sanctioning editors for breaching page restrictions.

Support

1. ~ Rob₁₃ 19:28, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
2. Thanks for proposing this Rob. Obviously support since I wrote it and my comments above. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 21:17, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
3. Okay, because it makes it clearer, but we really need to look at the whole discretionary sanctions thing and make it work better. Katie 23:59, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Oppose

Abstain

Discussion by arbitrators

• Posting this with slight edits from User:Callanecc/sandbox2. This motion serves to add edit notices as a requirement before sanctioning for a page restriction. It also makes clearer that editors must be aware of discretionary sanctions in a topic area before being sanctioned under a page restriction. The last line in the proposed page restrictions section will probably be reformatted as a note if this passes, but it's easiest to display without a note here. ~ Rob₁₃ 19:28, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Amendment request: American politics 2

Initiated by SlimVirgin at 23:37, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

American politics 2 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. WP:ARBAPDS
2. Link to the principle, finding, remedy, section, etc for which you are requesting amendment

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• SlimVirgin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Sandstein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• MONGO (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• Sandstein
• MONGO

Information about amendment request

• WP:ARBAPDS

• State the desired modification

• Link to the principle, finding, remedy, section, etc for which you are requesting amendment

• State the desired modification

Statement by SlimVirgin

I don't know whether I've filled in the template properly or whether this is the right page. This is a request about AE and Sandstein, not about a particular case. Sandstein has just closed an AE against MONGO with a three-month topic ban "from everything related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people". He did this not because MONGO had been disruptive in the content area, but because he had posted a few angry posts at AE in response to a request for action against DHeyward. The topic ban seems to me to be a category mistake. As a result of it, MONGO has retired.

There was no consensus for the ban among uninvolved admins, but Sandstein closed the discussion anyway after less than 24 hours. When I objected as an uninvolved admin by posting underneath the closed discussion as soon as I saw it (rather than reopening it), he removed my post, and when I restored it, he told me that I "may be sanctioned for disruption".

What can be done about this situation at AE, which seems to have been going on forever, that Sandstein can simply ignore the views of other uninvolved admins? I'm posting here because he has refused all requests to reopen the discussion at AE. SarahSV 23:38, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Pinging the admins who commented at the AE: @Vanamonde93, NeilN, Drmies, Bishonen, Black Kite, Alex Shih, BU Rob13, and Masem: SarahSV 23:50, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Discussions: Sandstein talk, SV talk, AE talk, Sandstein talk again.

• Volunteer Marek, I asked you elsewhere to post examples of admins (other than Sandstein) who overrule the consensus of uninvolved admins at AE. Please post examples.

Yes, discretionary sanctions allow admins to take action without consensus, but this is nothing new. We can block and protect without consensus, and we imposed topic bans without consensus—instead of blocking or protecting—years before discretionary sanctions were a twinkle in ArbCom's eye. But there is a big difference between that and ignoring consensus once it has formed, or jumping the gun and closing a discussion as it is forming. Admins should not do that, at AE or anywhere else. SarahSV 00:24, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

BU Rob13, this isn't an appeal, it's an objection to the AE discussion being closed by one admin less than 24 hours after it opened while other admins were still discussing it. (I wish we could drop the legalistic approach to these discussions, as in only this type of person that can do that type of thing, etc.) This is an objection to a system that seems to allow one admin to do whatever he wants, no matter what anyone else says. Is he allowed to overrule ten uninvolved admins, 50, 500? What is ArbCom's view on the role of consensus among uninvolved admins at AE? SarahSV 00:36, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

MONGO, it's worth adding that I encourage you to appeal the topic ban, and I assume you can do that here in your own section if you want to. SarahSV 03:48, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Noting that I wrote the above before reading Newyorkbrad's post, which I hope MONGO will consider. SarahSV 04:58, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

When Sandstein lifted the topic ban, he issued a threat to take action against MONGO again: "If you repeat such conduct, I intend to impose a indefinite topic ban and/or a block." This is not appropriate. MONGO should not have to edit under the cloud of Sandstein deciding that a remark of his violates something, especially when it might lead to a topic ban in an unrelated area. SarahSV 00:11, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Sandstein

I am not curently able to comment in detail but will be able to do so in the morning by UTC. Sandstein 23:47, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

This is an appeal of an AE sanction by somebody who is not the sanctioned editor. Such appeals are not allowed according to ArbCom procedure. Multiple people have told SlimVirgin this on her talk page and on the AE talk page. That she nonetheless submits this appeal here, five minutes after reading MONGO's statement that they do not wish to appeal, is disruptive.

SlimVirgin's conduct at WP:AE, where she reverted my removal of her request to discuss the case from the AE page was likewise disruptive. AE is a forum in which to process enforcement requests and not to discuss past enforcement actions; such discussions belong on talk pages or in other discussion fora, as, again, multiple other editors have told her. Intentional breaches of decorum are sanctionable, to which I made reference. As an administrator, SlimVirgin in particular should know and follow AE procedure. I agree with BU Rob13 below that her conduct in this matter can be read as attempting to bully me into changing an AE decision she does not agree with.

I have addressed SlimVirgin's procedural concerns with respect to the closure on her talk page, and to some extent on my talk page and on the AE talk page. I explained there that I believe that I have followed all rules regarding the conduct of sanctioning administrators as laid down in ArbCom's procedures. I remain available for questions by arbitrators if they desire further clarification in this respect. Because this appeal is out of order, as noted above, I do not intend to comment on the merits of the sanction here, unless requested to by arbitrators. Sandstein 07:00, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

@Newyorkbrad: Because the original appeal by SlimVirgin is, as you write, improper, the Arbitration Committee should not consider it. If AE is to function in a effective and predictable manner, editors and administrators need to be able to rely on the Arbitration Committee applying the rules it has enacted. This case is an example for why the rule against third-party appeals makes sense: SlimVirgin's request has, against MONGO's wishes, highlighted MONGO's misconduct in a public forum and caused them additional stress, to say nothing of the administrative overhead for everyone involved. SlimVirgin should at the least be admonished not to disrupt the process again in this manner.

If this were a valid appeal, I would also disagree with the alternative sanctions you propose. I believe that no sanction should ever include a prohibition against personal attacks. That's because such a prohibition already applies to all editors per WP:NPA and indeed the Terms of Use. Issuing a separate prohibition misleadingly implies that it does not already applies to everybody. I'd also be skeptical of exchanging a topic ban for a longer AE ban. The misconduct at issue was triggered by frustration about perceived discrimination of editors with conservative views with respect to US politics. This is a motivation not specific to AE but could just as well result in similar misconduct in article talk page discussions about US politics. A topic ban is therefore a more appropriate instrument to prevent future misconduct.

We do now have a valid appeal by MONGO, however. I'll comment on it at a later time, as I have to go to work now. Sandstein 07:03, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

As regards the appeal by MONGO, if it had been made to me directly, I'd likely have granted it and lifted the topic ban. I believe that sanctions should be lifted as soon as they are no longer necessary. In almost all cases, that requires that the sanctioned user convincingly expresses that they understand why what they did was wrong and that they won't do it again. I believe that MONGO is sincere when they say that they regret the statements they made. For these reasons, I'm not opposed to the Arbitration Committee lifting the topic ban on appeal. However, if such conduct is repeated in a discretionary sanctions topic area and is brought to AE again, I will consider imposing an indefinite topic ban. Sandstein 08:46, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

@Euryalus: You suggest that I lift the ban myself. My understanding is - perhaps out of caution - that once ArbCom is seized of an appeal, they are in charge of the procedure and the sanction, and I cannot therefore lift or modify the sanction on my own any more. (If the appealing editor had wanted me to do this, they could have appealed to me rather than to ARCA.) If this understanding of procedure is incorrect, i suggest that procedure is clarified accordingly.

As to the 24h waiting period at AE, if you do this you should take into account that AE actions undertaken by admins on their own without a request, or in response to requests in fora other than AE, would not have this waiting period. Potentially controversial AE actions would then be perhaps more often be made through these other venues. If you don't want to authorize admins to act on their own without prior discussion, that is fine with me, but then you'd need to fundamentally rethink the whole AE process. In my view, this is a solution in search of a problem, because if there is controversy over an AE action, then the point at which it can be resolved through discussion and consensus is the appeals process, and not any very vaguely described pre-sanction discussion. Sandstein 13:56, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Arbitrators, thank you for your responses. I currently read 4 arbitrators as confirming that I as sanctioning admin am authorized to lift the sanction while this appeal before the Committee remains pending. I intend to do so as soon as a majority of active arbitrators (i.e., 7) has confirmed this view. I do not intend to substitute it with a NPA restriction, because as explained I consider such restrictions harmful, or with an AE ban, because as long as they do not make personal attacks there is no particular need to exclude MONGO from AE. Of course, other admins remain free to take such other enforcement actions as they see fit. Sandstein 14:58, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

@Newyorkbrad: I'll lift the ban as soon as MONGO's talk page is unprotected so I may post the appropriate notice (see User talk:Bishonen#User talk:MONGO). Sandstein 07:09, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

I have now lifted the ban and noted this on MONGO's talk page and the sanctions log. Sandstein 11:04, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by MONGO

I just commented here and am not able due to a horrible migraine to do more today. In summary my linked comment states that I am not planning on submitting a formal request for modification of my topic ban at this time, due to the probability of creating a dramafest and possibly angering some I have deeply and needlessly offended.--MONGO 23:53, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

I do not see SlimVirgin's approach to this matter as bullying as described above by Sandstein. My take is SlimVirgin felt that the discussion was closed down before a consensus was established and the AE request was open less than a day when there was no editing on my part in the topic area, so a rapid closure was unnecessary. In other words, SlimVirgin seems to indicate that by time she noticed the AE request, it was already closed and she was not able to offer an opinion on the matter. The other point that SlimVirgin has pointed out is that the applied remedy was incorrect as I had not been disruptive in the topic space itself, but instead at the AE noticeboard. The original arbcom admonishment I received 2.5 years ago in the American Politics 2 case stated I had added "hostility to the topic area" and I believe Sandstein was considering my comments at the just closed AE request against DHeyward to be a further example of the things I had been admonished for in the American Politics 2 case.--MONGO 08:13, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

This is now essentially an appeal on my part. Hoping this does not lead to excessive drama as I am not up to it and have determined that if the appeal is not successful, I'm taking at least a sabbatical from the English Misplaced Pages (I never seem to get myself in trouble at Commons so I might try and help there I guess) for the duration of the existing topic ban. Anyway, I saw that long time editing partner DHeyward had been reported to the Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard. I looked over the diffs provided and I felt they were possibly violations but only barely if at all. One in fact struck me as odd in that it was on the last day of his existing 30 day topic ban and I know DHeyward well enough that he's not so stupid he would tempt fate on his last day of an existing topic ban. After I received a well deserved admonishment from the arbitration committee in 2015 I had in essence retired mostly from US political articles, sticking my nose in there only very infrequently and my editing history will testify to that effect. But I have noticed a lot of the same people reporting each other it seemed doing a tit for tat (I felt) at AE with the same names popping up frequently. Seeing some of the comments I lashed out at DHeyward's detractors, both present and not even present at that discussion here. I'll frankly say I am embarrassed by the comment I made there and would go so far as to say it was blockworthy, even a longish block, especially since MrX removed part of it, reminded me to not make personal attacks and I yet restored it . There is no excuse for the comments I made, they were extremely harsh and unnecessary. MrX and I had a sort back and forth and MrX then filed an AE request regarding my comments and Sandstein then removed all my comment from the AE request on DHeyward and then posted he was waiting for me to address the issue . I did not initially respond to the report and in fact bluntly said I would not be responding. Sandstein then stated that he was considering a indefinite topic ban on me from American politics etc. articles. The full discussion lasted about half a day and those commenting ranged from being in agreement with Sandstein's proposal to suggesting that a different resolution should be applied, primarily based on the lack of diffs showing I have been disruptive in the topic space itself. Sandstein apparently did adjust the invoked sanction to a 90 day topic ban rather than the indefinite one he initially suggested. After posting to my talkpage about the sanction he had applied, I resigned. I intend to not edit anywhere until my topic ban is lifted, amended or expires. I have contemplated leaving because I feel I have lost the support of the community overall.

The above are the facts of the case, I was way out of line, I probably deserved a block for making personal attacks and restoring them after MrX had removed part of them, and Sandstein did not completely ignore the input of other administrators or the community.

Things moved rapidly during the AE report MrX had filed and in reflection I feel that while my comments were inexcusable I also felt that the both barrels loaded response by Sandstein, who posted a rather draconian indefinite topic ban plan, the type of ban that is oftentimes rarely amended or lifted, was inaccurate. Furthermore I felt very slighted by his comment in the same paragraph in which Sandstein said I have a long block log for "disruptive conduct". I asked Sandstein about this as I have not been blocked in nearly 10 years and others chimed in that my block log was well in the past. The harsh implied penalty as well as the bringing forth of my old blocks certainly indicated to me that Sandstein may have been angry at me or was working on a reputation I may have. These sorts of comments, posted very early in the discussion, have perhaps the inadvertent effect of setting the tone of the oncoming penalty, a sort of pragmatism that I know was not done in a calculated manner by Sandstein, but does impact how the discussion is likely to go. The rush to judgement should be metered and dispassionate and I will confess that I have found Sandstein to be overly aggressive and at times overly harsh in is application of sanctions. I want to say that I am literally fearful that anyone posting a complaint about me I may not get a fair hearing by Sandstein since he apparently has an entrenched and negative view of my activities. Perhaps this is a preposterous paranoia on my part especially considering I do not think Sandstein has ever previously sanctioned or suggested I be sanctioned. Nevertheless, his comments early on made me conclude I either have a terrible reputation or his opinion of me is very low. Both of these things make me feel like staying around this website is a bad plan for me.

I do have a few ideas if anyone cares to think about them:

1). Hereforth allow AE reports to remain open for 24 hours unless the reported party is doing harm to the project and a near immediate sanction must be implemented. 2). Tailor the sanction to better fit the offense. In my case, a 90-180 day NPA parole would have been better since I had not been seen to be disruptive in the topic area itself. I am opposed to civilty paroles because we do have some cultural/language barriers and one person's blunt speak may be anothers incivility. What I engaged in was beyond incivility, I made personal attacks so there is a clear distinction. I would prefer that my current sanction be changed to a NPA parole, but this isn't really a big deal to me because I have lost most of my desire to contribute. MrX somewhere said he felt my sanction was small considering I had admitted I rarely edit that topic area anymore anyway...he's probably right. 3). Admin working in AE and anywhere should remember that many nonadmins feel genuinely at the mercy of the admin corp. Having once been an admin I can attest to how losing the bit is a very marginalizing experience. I ask admins to understand that we do at times feel threatened and at times powerless and this does impact how we may respond (generally defensively but oftentimes angrily) when we are approached by administrators. Likewise when reminding people to be nice, expect them to not be since no one likes being told what to do. 4). All should only use the noticeboards as a last resort. Even when there may be clear and obvious diffs to provide, we should all try and give each other the benefit of the doubt if at all possible.

Thanks....--MONGO 06:17, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by The Quixotic Potato

It is no secret that I disagree with MONGO politically (see my userpage), but I think this topic ban is not helping our encyclopedia. Retired or not, I would like to see this topic ban undone. Sandstein acted in good faith and I understand Sandstein's reasoning, but I think it was a bad decision. Blocking for incivility would've been a good decision. There is no one here (at the time of this timestamp) that I fully agree with. Unfortunately asking people to calm down is usually counterproductive. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 00:09, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Volunteer Marek

You don't like how the AE report was closed? Well, tough noogies, that's the "discretionary" in "discretionary sanctions". And for the record there was in fact weak consensus for the restriction.

I actually find it hilarious that some editors (well, two, Sarah and Rambling Man) are acting like this is some nefarious breach of norms whereas this is exactly how WP:AE functions and has always functioned. There've been literally dozens if not hundreds of editors who've come through WP:AE who've been sanctioned (or not) with much less consensus than in this case. Again, that's the "discretionary" in "discretionary sanctions". WP:AE has always been like this. This is just clueless in the sense that Sarah apparently just discovered that WP:AE exists and "discretionary sanctions" are a thing. Even though, you know, they've been around for more than half a decade (and lots of admins, including some sitting on the ArbCom right now, have argued till they're blue in the face that they're effective).

You don't like this? Then get rid of WP:AE and discretionary sanctions. Riiiiggghhhhhthttttt....

Otherwise it's gonna look very much like MONGO is being given special treatment - what about all the other editors who got sanctioned with far less consensus over the years? - just cuz he's MONGO.

(Note that this is neither an endorsement nor a criticism of discretionary sanctions) (or MONGO's sanction for that matter)

Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:55, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

@MrX " If, alternatively, Arbcom intended that AE should be a IAR free for all where the loudest and most persistent voices win, then that that would be good to know as well.-" - I think that's called "WP:ANI" and it is my understanding that that's why an ArbCom came up with DS in the first place.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:20, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

@SlimVirgin: - Sarah, it's actually YOUR job to provide diffs to support your claim (the claim: "What can be done about this situation at AE, which seems to have been going on forever, that Sandstein can simply ignore the views of other uninvolved admins?)", not mine. Best I can see you provide nothing, just your own displeasure at how the MONGO report was closed. Sorry, but that's not enough for, well, anything, otherwise there's some AE decisions I'd like to re-litigate myself.

Also, just a general question - for the ArbCom as well - what EXACTLY is being asked for here? What is the clarification being requested? What is the amendment being proposed? There doesn't appear to be anything of the sort. Just a sanction-related version of WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. In the most charitable interpretation this is a thinly disguised appeal on behalf of MONGO in contravention of Misplaced Pages policy (as I asked elsewhere, what exactly is the difference between an "appeal" of a sanction and a request to "review" a sanction on behalf of someone else?) Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:10, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

@Newyorkbrad: @MONGO: - I just want to point out that converting a AP topic ban into a civility parole (isn't making personal attacks *already* prohibited?) is not exactly doing MONGO any favors. With a topic ban, you more or less know what you need to do to not run afoul of it. But changing one's personality, or how it manifests itself in an online space... yeah, that's tricky. I mean, I've seen a few people do it, but generally, no. It just leads to more trouble. Chances are in a few weeks MONGO will say something snide (maybe not even THAT snide) to somebody in a completely different setting, that person will note that MONGO is under this civility parole and then go running to WP:AE.

This is sort of an offer you can't not refuse.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:33, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Given User:MONGO's statement - and the fact that it constitutes an actual appeal - I think the sanctions should be vacated or rescinded or whatever. Per my comment right above, substituting in a civility parole (again, "personal attack parole" makes no sense) is a bad idea.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:32, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by MrX

I would very much like for the committee to review SlimVirgin's actions and comments over the past 12 hours to determine if they align with the policies and practices of arbitration enforcement, and the spirit of resolving conduct disputes on Misplaced Pages. Specifically, she has relentlessly hounded Sandstein as evidenced at WP:AE, WT:WT, user talk:Slim Virgin and user talk:Sandstein. She has insisted that Sandstein should pursue a consensus amongst admins, a demand which is in stark opposition to policy and practice. If, alternatively, Arbcom intended that AE should be a IAR free for all where the loudest and most persistent voices win, then that that would be good to know as well.- MrX 00:02, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

(I appreciate MONGO's statement, and I'm sincerely sorry to hear that he has a migraine. That really sucks.)

• @RegentsPark: You wrote: The wise thing to do when your admin action is (almost universally) condemned is to reopen it and work toward a consensus solution rather than to quote policy and try to shut down debate. I'm not sure if that is intended to be hypothetical, but I assume it is your reflection of what happened in this case. Sandstein's actions were not almost universally condemned. They were not condemned by at least 12 editors: myself, Volunteer Marek, Drmies, BU Rob13, Huldra, Alanscottwalker, Black Kite, SPECIFICO, Mz7, NorthBySouthBaranof and Kingsindian. Alex Shih said he disagreed with the close, but did not indicate that he condemned Sandstein's actions. Masem seems to have reservations, but no outright condemnation.

That's roughly the same number of editors who have criticized Sandstein's actions, and a larger number than those who have actually condemned his actions. Please, anyone, let me know if I've misrepresented your comments on this matter.- MrX 16:23, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

• I thought this was over, but it seems that some folks don't know how to move on. The continued hounding of Sandstein is appalling and I'm bewildered that Arbcom continues to sit on its collective hands ignoring it. Haven't we had enough drama here for one week without proxy complaints on behalf of MONGO, who has, to his credit, moved on with grace.?- MrX 00:32, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by BU Rob13

I’ve recused because of my minor involvement at the AE, but I do want to note my thoughts on this whole issue. First, the Committee should only hear an appeal from MONGO. Appeals on behalf of other editors are not policy-based. Further, some of the behavior surrounding this situation has been very subpar. I don’t know whether ARCA is the right place to take that up, but the threats Sandstein has been subjected to cannot be allowed to continue. Admins should not be bullied out of enforcing arbitration remedies. ~ Rob₁₃ 00:10, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Winkelvi

A few things I want to address:

• Is there something in the collective water that Misplaced Pages admins are drinking lately - especially those with itchy trigger fingers who are younger in age and/or inexperienced at being admins? I'm asking only because there's some really bold and bad decisions being made lately in the way of long blocks and sanctions and it's all been by young admins and new admins. Sheesh.

• It's no secret that MONGO and I have tussled in the past, and I have been vocal about his brash communication and aggressive edits over the last few years, but I can't help but voice my objection to what happened to him today. This sanction seems like some huge overkill and just more unneeded drahmuh.

• It's totally uncool that Sandstein is ignoring the views of other uninvolved admins. It's even more uncool that he refused requests to reopen the case and is now saying he's going to suddenly become incommunicado and unavailable for the next 12 hours or so. Same thing happened with another young admin with a quick trigger-finger two weeks ago. What the...?

Sorry, but as the member of a community where we are supposed to have some level of trust in those essentially running the place, these kind of actions (just like the other two instances I mentioned here as well) leave a chilling effect, a bad taste in experienced editors' mouths, and is starting to chase away long time, experienced, and good content contributors. My opinion is something needs to be done about this new trend as well as MONGO's over-the-top sanction and dissing admins like SarahSV. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 00:18, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by NeilN

Sandstein states here, "In the instant case, I did read and take into consideration the opinions of others, even if I did not follow all of them. There being no consensus about the nature of the sanction to impose, the issue of overruling colleagues did not arise."

• I see little evidence he read or took into consideration the opinions of other admins. This indicates he did not read the revised proposal, he either didn't read or ignored my nudge to address the revised proposal, and the close misrepresented the revised proposal as detailed here (the top part)
• No consensus was allowed to form as Sandstein closed the case before even twenty four hours had passed. Bearing this in mind, his "no consensus" statement seems very self-serving. --NeilN 00:23, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

• Alanscottwalker, it shows he considered the initial proposal, which was easy to dismiss, not the revised one. --NeilN 00:31, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

• Alanscottwalker, for the nth time (sorry, not directed towards you specifically) a "6th month ban on discussion" was not the proposal on the table. --NeilN 01:02, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Regarding the waiting time discussion, I'm going to repeat what I said here: An admin has the authority to levy sanctions on anyone without needing input or a post to the AE board. I wouldn't want to change this. However if a request is posted to the board and another admin disagrees with the first admin's proposal before the first admin takes action then I do think consensus should be necessary at that point. Expanding: Recognizing that this could lead to an impasse, any admin should be able to close the request 36 hours after it was opened with the appropriate explanatory notes. However if there is significant disagreement about sanctions and discussion is exhausted/getting repetitive, consideration should be given whether or not to kick it up to Arbcom. --NeilN 18:52, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Alanscottwalker

Whether intentional or not Slim Virgin's presentation seems rather unfair and I think that unfairness stems from SV not dealing with the entirety of Sandstein's extensive rationale. So I present that rationale, here:

Taking into consideration the discussion above, we agree that this is actionable conduct, but some admins would prefer a sanction that reflects that there are no complaints with respect to MONGO's article-space editing. As noted above, I'm of the view that a sanction limited to non-articlespace is impractical and does not reflect that Misplaced Pages editing does not occur in segregated namespaces, but that casting aspersions against others affects all work that the affected editors undertake; for instance, it severely hinders the ability of the involved editors to work together and find consensus on content issues. I am therefore topic-banning MONGO from everything related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people. As regards the duration of the sanction, I must take into consideration, on the one hand, that MONGO has been admonished by ArbCom against such conduct and has a long block log, and that their immediate reaction to this request was to blame others and to disclaim responsibility; but, on the other hand, that no blocks are recent, and that MONGO has now apologized for their remarks. Accordingly, I'm imposing the topic ban for a duration of three months. Sandstein 09:25, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Agree or disagree, it extensively addresses why it was done, including what Slim Virgin calls a "category error". And contra Neil, yes it shows he considered others' statements. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:24, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Neil, Your proposal for a 6th month ban on discussion (and do obvious, uncontrovertial maintenance) is addressed with a 3 month clean-break, does appear considered, above, both in shortening length and in similar relative effect/enforcement. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:57, 7 January 2018 (UTC) Oh, right, you mean the, for lack of a better term, 'civility parole' thing that bans him saying certain things -- well, the Arbs do have recent relatively high-profile experience with that and they seemed rather disenchanted with it being pretty unenforceable, unlike the clean break, which was the reason the clean-break was chosen. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:13, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

If I am being called to say whether I "condemn" Sandstein's action, I don't. My position, is rather closer to Drmies, and Golden Ring. For myself, reading it all, I think Sandstein did honestly try 'to do the right thing' (even were it not what I would have done, were I in his shoes), and did generally try to take all the comments into account. I did not opine in the AE (I don't know if I ever have commented in that forum), and you don't need yet another, after the fact, opinion on the underlying facts. As for timing, again, your timing rules are whatever your timing rules are, but just looking at the AE discussion, itself, it does appear like it was aired out there by multiple people. As for appeal, you have whatever rules you have created. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:23, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Responding to comments about AE 'not working', or 'it's broken' (like there's something that's not?) or 'why do we have AE?' - you'll just have to dig through the history to truly answer that but one thing that seems apparent to me, is the major answer to all those complaints already exists: appeal. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:21, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

@Euryalus: While I agree there is now an appeal and that Sandstein would now be inclined to grant in some form, you appear to send a 'mixed message', if what you are suggesting is Sandstein now act unilaterally (are you putting him in a situation, where to some, he 'gets it wrong' again?). -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:56, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

@Euryalus: They can be. But here and now, we have multiple people opining on different ideas for handling the matter. As I said, you send a mixed message. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:42, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

@Newyorkbrad: @DGG:, and to the rest of the Comittee, too. First of all, your burn it down remedy is bizarre, unless you are willing to go whole hog and disband your ctte or resign (after all, if you read the comments of many over the years, your ctte, does not do much, and when it does, it regularly does it wrong) or you can press ahead with the realization that nothing is perfect. I also, don't think sweeping infexible new creeping rules is wise.

My suggestions, 1) every year or six months as a ctte off-wiki audit every AE case for a week(s)/a month, (or have some of our statistcians give you a random sampling technique) after that time publish the draft audit (for structured community comment/your revision) hand out a bunch of 'attagals/boys/etc', and 'no's, this is how that kind should be handled', and overtime you'll have a 'common law' body of precedent, that everyone can look to. And in successive audits, you can refine/correct prior audits.

With cases such as the present one when you have an actual appeal, go ahead and make some rulings, even though as this one is, it's over (Brad I am sure there is a SCOTUS phrase for that) although, when it's over, you should probably be more circumspect, with your eye firmly planning on making future AE 'better', never perfect, but in the context of discussing an actual case issue that arose). Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:26, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Masem

My opinion from the original AE was that MONGO's talk behavior was way out of line, considering past warnings/etc, but understanding from others they edit in AP2 space without any drama to the content of their edits. I do understand the point made by the closing, that it is hard to block talk page behavior and yet expect the editor to continue to participate in the same article space, if the TBAN prevents them from participating in any discussion, which my read now makes me think a TBAN might have been the wrong approach, or at least a shorter standard TBAN. --Masem (t) 00:34, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by olive

This is about process versus common sense. If an AE closes in less than 24 hours, chances are many aren't even aware the AE has been filed. If another or other admins ask that a case be reopened then nothing is lost by extending discussion. Misplaced Pages has unfortunately given a great deal of power to individual admins in the application of discretionary sanctions and in AEs. In a community of this size, that power can be misused and so must be must be tempered with the openness to listen to fellow admins and editors, and the flexibility to apply sanctions with discrimination knowing that nothing in our policies and guidelines points to rigid consistency. Misplaced Pages is and will continue to be open to abuse if individual admins cannot adjust their thinking and decisions based on the specifics of a situation. Admins must know that they will not be judged for changing their minds and that flexibility and collaboration will be respected.

And by the way that another admin questions a decision is good and healthy in this community. We don't want or need dictators which is what happens if decision makers are above discussion with those those who may disagree or misunderstand them.(Littleolive oil (talk) 00:35, 7 January 2018 (UTC))

• • There is a bottom line here: AE doesn't always work very well. Process should not override common sense and humane judgement. Admins like Sandstein are following the letter of the law and shouldn't be faulted for that but at the same time a single admin makes mistakes and sometimes big ones and sadly, sometimes editors are railroaded. Are there any admins here who feel they've always been right or fair? So like isaacl I believe we need to have a circuit breaker for those times when a community of admins sees a potential mistake. We are a collaborative community and that must refer not just to editing practices but also to judgement and decisions. The problem we have here is that Sandstein feels he has done the right thing. Others disagree and Sandstein is not interested in dealing with those other opinions. Fair enough for an admin to stand by his decisions. However, no admin should be in a position to implement something that is not fair or just in the eyes of a community. What we need is a formalized guide for such situations. In a collaborative community a single admin should be overridden by a group. How can that be implemented. Several months ago an editor emailed and asked me if I thought our AE process was making people sick. I've thought about that for along time. And in the end, yes, when people are treated unfairly, unjustly, especially in a community which purports to be collaborative, for me, a word synonymous with of the people, then we are making people sick and we are losing editors and we are responsible-all of us.(Littleolive oil (talk) 00:55, 8 January 2018 (UTC))

• • • Note: Among the "masses" appeals are generally considered to be useless.There seems to be a general sense that those appealing are guilty so why bother looking at the case in detail again, or there are those who want to make sure the sanction holds. If this seems cynical with a dash of hopelessness; it is. I speak from experience where for example I had an arb accuse me of something I'd never done. Had she looked at the case she wouldn't have made the mistake. When I asked for a clarification on the point I was ignored. So my sense is that do it right at AE, including a 24 hour, at the very least, time period on the case.(Littleolive oil (talk) 16:29, 9 January 2018 (UTC))

Statement by TheGracefulSlick

Let me just start off by saying I respect Sandstein immensely for his ability to read consensus at AFD so I am saddened by recent events. However, when SlimVirgin dared to have an issue with your close, your response can be summed up as: "that sucks but procedure says I can". Your close was ill-adviced and caused a shootout among several esteemed editors. Can you honestly stand behind your closure and say the ends justify the means? What have you accomplished or proven because it certainly has not been in the interest of the encyclopedia, regardless of whether "procedure says I can" or not. And I share Littleolive's opinion: SlimVirgin's inquiry is healthy and I wish more admins had the moxy to speak up more often.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 03:32, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by DHeyward

I also object strongly to applying a content area ban to an editor that didn't involve the content. Sandstein closed my appeal and it was the draconian decision and hounding of me that led to his comments. I have an ARCA request below because of how admins working in AE are not communicating properly even after they admit errors in clarity. I am now subject to an AP2 topic ban because AE admins believe I violated a BLP topic ban. I don't think ArbCom intended to create a roulette wheel of sanctions but that is how it is operated. I would like to know how I earned an AP2 topic ban for supposedely violating a BLP topic ban with an edit that still exists. AE has become Kafka's attic. --DHeyward (talk) 02:52, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

And to be perfectly clear, MONGO's comments were in a BLP enforcement AE discussion, not an AP2 discussion. An AP2 restriction is a non-sequitur solution that appears to be from a motivation unencumbered by the goals of the project. SlimVirgin is correct and the TBAN should be undone..

Statement by WJBscribe

The rule about appeals being made by the sanctioned editor only should not be used to allow administrators taking enforcement actions at AE from evading proper scrutiny of their actions by the community. Sandstein does good work at AE but his aggressive enforcement focused on the letter of the law followed by (IMO) hiding behind the process to avoid communicating with colleagues even when it is clear that a mounting consensus is against his decision has repeatedly caused problems. Indeed, I remind the committee of the following remedy from May 2011: "Sandstein is advised to take care to communicate more effectively in future arbitration enforcement actions." (Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration Enforcement sanction handling#Sandstein advised). This issue could have been resolved by proper communication between Sandstein and other users, to see if his action was supported by broader community opinion. AE actions can be taken without first establishing consensus, but they cannot be allowed to stand if consensus is clearly against them. Likewise, in my opinion it is impermissible for an admin to review an AE thread, identify that a consensus is already against their proposed course of action, and take it anyway. WJBscribe (talk) 12:53, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Vanamonde93

This dramafest demonstrates once again our collective inability to deal with respected contributors who are occasionally very unpleasant. These folks are at fault for carrying on in a "this is the way I am: take it or leave it" attitude. And the community is at fault for whacking them with impossible and/or disproportionate sanctions.

I mention this, first, to explain my position at AE. I am unsure whether MONGO deserved a tban. His comments were terrible: but I've received far worse from editors against whom sanctions weren't even considered. Just see my RFA. But if MONGO is to receive a tban, it should be a clearly defined one, not subject to endless further drama. In that respect, at least, I find Sandstein's action appropriate.

But (and this is the second reason for my commentary above) Sandstein is certainly aware of the drama that ensues from sanctioning seasoned content contributors. For that reason, if none else, he should have made an effort to obtain broader admin support. Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy. The sole purpose of AE is to allow us to get on with building an encyclopedia: and therefore, extra care with respect to certain editors is entirely justifiable.

I have great respect for Sandstein. But it was pointed out to him that he created more drama than he solved, and he responded by saying he followed the rules. This is concerning, and in my view requires examination by ARBCOM. Furthermore, the admin corps at AE clearly failed to deal with the situation in a drama-reducing manner: perhaps ARBCOM can do better. Vanamonde (talk) 14:21, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by (uninvolved) RegentsPark

It is a truth (that should be) universally acknowledged, that a single admin in search of sanctions should always make a good faith attempt to find and abide by consensus. In this instance, Sandstein did not do that. Instead, he went against consensus in sanctioning MONGO, and gave a rather unfortunate reason for doing so My experience is that is almost not possible to impose AE sanctions against long-term community members without a substantial minority, or even a majority, of other long-term community members disagreeing with it for one reason or another, a reason which sort of indicates that he believes he is better positioned to make unbiased judgements than other admins (always a dangerous sign in anyone with power). He should also not have reverted SlimVirgin when she made additional comments on the closed AE report, but rather have waited for someone else to do so. In both cases, though Sandstein admittedly followed the letter of policy on admin action, he clearly did not follow its spirit. The wise thing to do when your admin action is (almost universallywidely) condemned is to reopen it and work toward a consensus solution rather than to quote policy and try to shut down debate. We're seeing the unfortunate consequences of when an admin chooses the shutting down option over the consensus seeking one.

Sandstein does good work at AE, it is not easy to make judgement after judgement against editors and I respect that. I also think that the action he took against MONGO was clearer than some of the suggestions that were being made on AE. But it is important that he realize that not attempting to seek consensus and then attempting to shut down debate on his actions is not the wiki way and that viewing yourself as a bulwark against a perception that long term content editors get special treatment from admins is probably neither constructive nor accurate. --regentspark (comment) 15:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Changed "almost universally" to widely per MrX's comment. I meant "universally condemned by admins" but perhaps that's not the case either. Widely fits the bill well. --regentspark (comment) 17:18, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Sitush

A few years ago someone described Sandstein's actions at AE as being those of a "judge, jury and executioner" (admittedly, it was said by someone who has not had a great track record here). This is what happens when that position is taken. It's very unfortunate and, I think, rather unnecessary. I'm sure that they acted in good faith but when numerous other long-standing contributors, including admins, query an action then surely discretion is the better part of valour? Instead of continuing to suggest that it was done to protect the project and is non-negotiable, open it up for review. FWIW, I have had practically no interaction with MONGO or with the subject area - it just looks like a bad decision to me. - Sitush (talk) 15:58, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by GoldenRing

Just to note that the committee dealt with very similar issues in this case in 2015. That decision included Although administrators do not need explicit consensus to enforce arbitration decisions and can always act unilaterally, when the case is not clear-cut they are encouraged, before acting, to seek input from their colleagues at arbitration enforcement. In addition, when a consensus of uninvolved administrators is emerging in a discussion, administrators willing to overrule their colleagues should act with caution and must explain their reasons on request. Administrators overruling their colleagues without good cause may be directed to refrain from further participation in arbitration enforcement and was passed 10-0.

Even with that in mind, I think it is stretching things to say that Sandstein acted against an emerging consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE. There was general agreement of uninvolved admins at AE that MONGO's comments were sanction-worthy; the debate, by and large, was over what, not if.

I sympathise with those who tried to craft a narrower sanction that fit the offence better, but the background of DHeyward's narrow tban should be kept in mind; there have been a number of voices in that context arguing that admins should impose bans from all of AP2 or do nothing, because anything narrower causes trouble. Sandstein's action was well within admin discretion and a reasonable one given the discussion at AE. GoldenRing (talk) 17:04, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

@KrakatoaKatie and Euryalus: The idea of a minimum waiting time for AE has been discussed repeatedly and rejected, and for good reasons

1. For the majority of cases, it is either unnecessary or counter-productive, because:

• There is ongoing disruption which a 24-hour waiting period would enable; or
• Many cases are obvious and easily dealt with on a single admin's discretion.

1. A waiting period creates a disincentive to use AE. It will encourage editors to instead take complaints directly to friendly admins for action, since admins can act unilaterally unless a report is made to AE, in which case they have to wait 24h.
2. The waiting period would create a trap for admins who might be about to impose a sanction, not knowing that seconds before they click the save button, someone else has made a complaint at AE.
3. It's not at all clear that a minimum waiting period would have helped with this request, which had an unusually high level of admin participation for requests at AE.

So unless you intend to make AE a compulsory step in all enforcement actions, and are prepared to tolerate 24 hours of ongoing disruption before a sanction can be imposed, please don't create a minimum waiting period at AE.

I'll add that those trying to picture Sandstein as steaming in and overruling their colleagues don't appear to have read the discussion. He was the first to comment on the AE request, 14 hours before closing it. During the intervening period, there was a considerable discussion in which a majority of admins argued for a broad topic ban and Sandstein took care to interact with the thoughts of those who argued for a narrower ban in his final comment on the request. His actions were not only well within discretion but very reasonable in view of the discussion. Not everyone agreed with him, but he was hardly a lone voice. GoldenRing (talk) 14:53, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Drmies

At the initial case I said I wasn't sure what to do, but I certainly wasn't disagreeing with Sandstein and I don't disagree with his close. I also don't see how his close is "universally" or even "widely" condemned. Such decisions are always made in a heated environment (by definition) and they aren't always easy to make; as far as I'm concerned Sandstein did nothing wrong, and made a judgment call based on the discussion and others' opinions that they handled procedurally correctly (he may remember that he overturned a procedurally incorrect but ethically correct block I placed for formal reasons). That this shouldn't be brought by someone who isn't MONGO is pretty much a fact according to our policies, but that's not the biggest deal to me; a bigger deal for me is that for all intents and purposes this just makes matters even worse, complicating a possible future appeal by MONGO, which I hope is in the works. Drmies (talk) 17:57, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Ceoil

While politically I fall on the polar opposite side to MONGO and greatly admire VM, I have looked up to MONGO's article work for over ten years (and have said before that his FACs are what first motivated me stop editing as an IP and open an account) and see a sometimes gruff talk page style that *does not* spill over into POV main space article contributions. I also don't think Sandstein did anything wrong per say, just a little quickly, but it seems a very harsh penalty given the length of service and the overwhelming positive contribution the man has made to this website. MONGO is informed, and given the current political climate and polarisation, its increasing difficult to keeps ones cool. Cutting him at the knee with a broad topic ban seems extremely harsh, when he's generally an amenable sort of guy and some limited restrictions on talk page conduct might better serve.

On the initial close; if consensus often does not ultimately inform the decision, what is the point of a board inviting discussion. Its it just a procedural tick the box? Ceoil (talk) 18:52, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Mz7

As others before me have pointed out, Sandstein was definitely allowed to take this arbitration enforcement action unilaterally (that is, without consideration for the opinions of other administrators) under the procedures set forth at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions (though admins should take heed of the principle cited in GoldenRing's statement). Under the same set of procedures, any appeal – defined at the top of the page as including any request for the reconsideration, reduction, or removal of a sanction – must be brought by the editor who is under sanction, in this case MONGO (see WP:AC/DS#Appeals by sanctioned editors). If the sanctioned editor chooses not to file a formal appeal, then the process forbids any request for reconsideration on the issue made by your average Joe. The unfortunate happenstance here is that the process precludes all administrator peer review in the event that the sanctioned editor chooses not to file a formal appeal, regardless of whether the sanctioned editor has otherwise expressed their disagreement to the sanction. Only when the sanctioned editor decides to appeal can any discussion of a reconsideration, reduction, or removal of a sanction happen.

With this in mind, I think the committee should procedurally endorse Sanstein's action without prejudice to the consideration of a future appeal by MONGO. As I noted in the original AE discussion, however, there is something about the "precluding all admin peer review" that strikes me as rather un-Misplaced Pages, and I would appreciate if the committee can explicitly clarify that, yes, this is what was originally intended when the process was designed. Mz7 (talk) 19:54, 7 January 2018 (UTC), last modified 19:59, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by SMcCandlish (involved historically, not topically)

I have no opinion on MONGO's actions/statements personally, and am not involved in that topic area. "This is a request about AE and Sandstein, not about a particular case." I agree that a shut-down that fast, with lengthy sanctions, for not making Sandstein happy at AE, rather than for disruption in the content area at issue, is doubly inappropriate; it's insufficient time for a proper examination, and whether Sandstein is pleased with the kowtowing in his royal court is irrelevant. But this stuff is habitual with him, for years.

I object in the strongest possible terms to this "an ARCA cannot be brought on behalf of someone else" nonsense, because it absolutely is not true. An ARCA can be opened by anyone, to:

• Seek clarification when they feel a clarification is needed, e.g. because they're uncertain how an ArbCom decision or AE enforcement action in furtherance of an ArbCom decision might apply to them.
• Seek amendment of a previous decision or of an AE administrative action on behalf of ArbCom, e.g. because they're concerned about how it could be applied to them, or they think something wrong has been done and may be interpreted as a form of wrongful precedent.
• About AE decisions, because there is no other avenue of appeal for them, and these decisions often do not affect single editors in some kind of vacuum, but are applied repetitively in case after case as a form of "standard operating procedure".
• About any administrative action, because ArbCom is the only embody empowered to examine whether an administrator's actions are compliant with WP:ADMIN policy; previous RfCs to establish a community-consensus alternative venue for this have failed to gather sufficient support. If Sandstein or ArbCom would rather it be a full WP:RFARB, well, "be careful what you wish for".

Not every ARCA that involves someone else is an "appeal" of their sanction (repeat: "This is a request about AE and Sandstein, not about a particular case"), so the ArbCom rule about appeals is not some huge, smothering gag that can be duct-taped over all attempts to examine administrative AE actions in any instance in which one isn't a directly aggrieved party. Having serious concerns about procedure being followed, about vague or capricious sanctions being used, about a general sense that AE has become a minefield where one is more likely to be punished for offending just the wrong person than to have the substance of an issue examined, are – each and severably – sufficient reason for anyone to use ARCA.

A really obvious precedent – about actions by Sandstein, again – is the ARCA opened by NE Ent on behalf of me and three other editors, over similar "Judge Dredd admin" activities at ARCA – a request which was accepted and acted upon by ArbCom. Permalink to the whole thing here. This is worth reviewing in detail, including the background (Sandstein made unsupportable claims of wrongdoing against me and all these other parties, and refused to even look at evidence he was wrong, even after other admins told him he was (e.g. ); we then got a year-long appeal runaround (see, and , etc.), until NE Ent, who at that time understood process better than we did, got it resolved for us.

 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ<  20:51, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

I have to concur with Darkfrog24's comment below; it's also consistent with what I said in a couple of other ARCAs shortly before this one. @My very best wishes: re "his appeal must be automatically closed as 'no action' - simply by default. Why should anyone waste time on the appeal if a user is no longer active?" – Obviously because most such retirements are not permanent and are predicated on unjust treatment; they become permanent usually only when wikilaywering is misused to avoid addressing the injustice. I.e., you would set up a self-fulfilling prophecy and justify it with circular reasoning. I repeat what I said in a previous ARCA: It's not ArbCom/AE's job to WP:WIN at all costs in a game of being a badass simulation of prosecution; anyone who acts like that is the goal has no business being part of these processes (see next subsection). The purpose of these processes is to retain productive editors in a productive capacity. That cannot be done by driving them off the system and laughing at them as they leave.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ<  23:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Also concur with isaacl's main thrust; "neither the 'Arbitration enforcement' nor 'Arbitration enforcement 2' case made much progress on ... safeguards against arbitrary enforcement decisions" is clearly true. Neitehr did the WP:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions/2013 review, as I cover at #Statement by SMcCandlish on DS in the ARCA above this one, and in more detail here. It's no accident that an increasing number of ARCAs involve such matters; there are real problems here, possibly worsening.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ<  23:53, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Carrite's "the fact that Mongo was AE topic-banned for content or behavior not made in mainspace" ] gets to the heart of various disputes about AE and DS and Sandstein in particular; the NE_Ent-filed ARCA I highlight above was all about another case of Sandstein using DS against people for making "personalized" comments in AE itself, when by definition a noticeboard about user behavior is automatically "personalized"; it's exactly like charging someone with defamation during a court case because they brought the case against someone and it necessarily made allegations. It's amazing to me that someone with a real-world legal background can't see the problem with this. But this is just one of many issues with DS and AE as presently deployed.

Sandstein (in multiple ARCAs) and Kingsindian (in the one after this one) argue that the confusing situation that an AE decision can, supposedly, be appealed to ArbCom (ARCA), to AN, or to AE should be used as an excuse to shut down appeals. Most systems of appeal are a chain of escalating appeals, so this is not going to match user expectations. And ArbCom is already clear that one should appeal first to the sanction-issuing admin, yet this does not prevent an appeal after that to ArbCom. Furthermore, it's a large part of ArbCom's job to review administrative decisions, be they individual or collective. It's the only place this can be done in a binding manner, so it's completely illogical that a dismissive or "back up other admins at all costs" pseudo-review by AN or by AE itself cannot be reviewed further by ArbCom. The ARCA I mention above, opened by NE Ent for others, was exactly such a request – and ArbCom had no trouble accepting it, and bringing it to a satisfactory resolution, which got two editors to come back, me among them. In point of fact, AN refused to actually come to a decision in that case, and claimed that only ArbCom could do it. So, the idea that the "use AN or AE or ArbCom" thing is actually a standardized practice with established norms is completely false. Even AN admins don't agree that AN (or its ANI subpage) is an appropriate appeal venue for anything AE does. And AE can't sanely be viewed as a final appeal avenue for its own decisions; that's a conflict of interest and the fox guarding the henhouse. On this side matter, the clarification to make is that AE sanctions should be appealed directly to the issuing admin, then if necessary to ARCA, the end.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ<  23:53, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Kingsindian writes: "This is how AE has always worked" (twice in slightly different wording). When the continual refrain is "AE is not working properly", that is clearly not an adequate answer. We know its been "working" this way, and it's not actually working. Re: "If you want to change how AE works, do it properly" – Since AE only exists as a body of ArbCom, having ArbCom examine the problems with it and suggesting ways to fix them is doing it properly, unless ArbCom wants something more specific, like a special RfC page.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ<  09:57, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: The fact that people were citing WP:DIVA as a besmirching and dismissing weapon is why that page was MfDed and radically rewritten has WP:HIGHMAINT several years ago. The page we have now is worth perusing; leaving Misplaced Pages because one feels maligned and abused is not WP:PRAM trantrum-throwing or devious WP:GAMING, as described therein. It's an understandable human reaction to get kicked around. See also departure by Tony1 recently, for even more egregious reasons. People who leave on such a basis are generally not scheming and are pretty certain they are not coming back. If they do, it can sometimes take years to come to that decision. Please do not belittle others' senses of justice and honor; it's in the same class as spiritual and other cultural differences, and going there is never going to be productive. This also speaks a bit to comments by TonyBallioni NE Ent earlier, like proposing to punitively block people for announcing they're leaving after being sanctioned.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ<  10:16, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Self-correction: The block idea was NE Ent's, not TonyBallioni's; sorry, I misremembered!  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ<  10:58, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Sandstein and AE have proved to be a bad combination, for a long time

Sandstein wikilawyered against resolution for the entire year that the above drama dragged out. See also his process-above-all avoidance of resolution on this very page right now (search for "de novo" in the ARCA above, and "I think that this appeal should be rejected on procedural grounds" in this one, below). His approach has not changed in the slightest in 5+ years, despite stern criticism from multiple Arbitrators about it.

One of the sitting Arbs at the time, Salvio giuliano, wrote in NE Ent's ARCA: "@Sandstein: I have probably already told you this, but I think that your approach to WP:AE is overly formalistic and bureaucratic and, speaking personally, I consider this a problem. This case is a good example of your approach", and focused on Sandstein's reliance on wikilawyering and dubious interpretations of procedure to skirt resolution and examination. Sandstein's response to this criticism was "if you think that my work at WP:AE does more harm than good, I'm happy to quit it if you would like me to. I'm not interested in helping out where I'm not welcome to, and I really have no time for all of this." (This does not comport very well with WP:ADMINACCT). Not the first time this has come up. I'll just link to Jayen466 (Andreas) quoting all the Salient details, from two Arbs, after Sandstein said he'd quit AE "duty" if Arbs wanted him to: . So, why hasn't he?

I could make a broader and very detailed case for why he should do so, including difficulty separating his personal opinions/feelings from administrative matters that are brought to AE, and a seeming inability to ever concede a mistake, but I'm skeptical this is a good thread for such a diff-pile, given the narrowness of this ARCA and it not being an RfArb. I'll close with a quote from Tony1 dating to the July 2013 AN request: "I've seen Sandstein's knee-jerk, almost random punishments result in the departure of three long-standing, hard-working, talent, trustworthy editors ... And the whole WMF movement is in the midst of an editor-retention crisis. Get it?" Sandstein's response to this was, in the same breath as admitting his own lack of empathy, to mock his victims as "throwing a screaming fit and rage-quitting Misplaced Pages" , plus further snide, character-assassinating aspersions of being inveterate, incompetent troublemakers , . This is not the only such series of incidents .

The passage of time (and my cowed avoidance of him for several years) was giving me the wishful-thinking illusion that maybe this was all just something Sandstein had learned and grown past, but that's clearly not the case after all. If someone keeps throwing the banhammer around like a fun toy, it's time to take that dangerous weapon away.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ<  21:39, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by My very best wishes

There are certain rules established by Arbcom, and they must be respected. One may agree or disagree with closing by Sandstein (I suggested something different on AE), but he obviously acted by the rules and in the limits of his discretion in this case. If MONGO disagree, he must talk with the closing administrator and submit an appeal to AE. This is by the rules. Not submitting an appeal can mean one of three things: (a) MONGO agree with closing by Sandstein, (b) he does not care, or (c) he does not want to act by the rules. In either case, bringing this complaint, rather than a request for amendment does not help to resolve anything because the initiative must belong to MONGO. My very best wishes (talk) 23:04, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Given the comments just made by MONGO above, I think his sanction could be removed and this thread closed simply per WP:IAR. If not, I think this appeal should be readdressed to WP:AE (rather than be directly handled by Arbcom) because this is proper noticeboard to handle such requests and minimize disruption. My very best wishes (talk) 16:28, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by isaacl

The tension between arbitration enforcement actions being taken on the initiative of an individual administrator versus a consensus discussion at the enforcement noticeboard was the key issue underlying Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration enforcement, which produced the following statement that is incorporated in the discretionary sanctions instructions: In addition, when a consensus of uninvolved administrators is emerging in a discussion, administrators willing to overrule their colleagues should act with caution and must explain their reasons on request. The case also stated Administrators wishing to dismiss an enforcement request are reminded that they should act cautiously and be especially mindful that their actions do not give the impression that they are second-guessing the Arbitration Committee or obstructing the enforcement of their decisions. Trying to achieve the goal of discretionary sanctions—to create an acceptable collaborative editing environment for even our most contentious articles—while still having safeguards against arbitrary enforcement decisions is a difficult task (neither the "Arbitration enforcement" nor "Arbitration enforcement 2" case made much progress on this front). Perhaps some sort of circuit-breaker rules can be defined: if certain triggering events occur, such as an arbitrator requesting that a consensus discussion be held at the enforcement noticeboard, then administrators must reach a consensus decision before enacting any sanctions. If possible, the circuit-breaker rules should be based on objective standards that track the emergence of the issue as being contentious, so that administrators are not tempted to rush to judgment solely to avoid tripping a circuit-breaker. Unfortunately, I don't have any good ideas as of yet on what rules would be useful.

Another possibility would be to have the reverse: necessary conditions for an administrator to take individual action. If these conditions are not in place, then an administrator must first announce their planned action at the enforcement noticeboard and wait for a set period of time before enacting it. isaacl (talk) 23:10, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

@Euryalus:, I disagree with a mandatory 24-hour waiting period after an enforcement request is filed before action is taken. I echo what Sandstein said and what I said above: this can precipitate hasty action by administrators in order to avoid the clock and consensus discussion. I think a waiting period needs to have some triggering conditions.

As I discussed in the "Arbitration enforcement" case, discretionary sanctions in its current form give broad authority to administrators to use their judgment in deciding the best course of action. If the arbitration committee wishes to require a mandatory discussion period, then it should revisit the process and consider moving to a "notice-and-action" model, where a request for enforcement must be raised for all issues. isaacl (talk) 17:23, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

As I discussed during the "Arbitration enforcement" case, I feel there is a danger in having a mandatory waiting period that applies only to filed requests, as this encourages people to file quickly in order to trigger the waiting period. The process should foster collaborative discussion first, rather than provide incentives for quick filings. isaacl (talk) 03:03, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Alex Shih

Writing here instead as I have commented at the original AE. MrX is correct that although I have disagreed with close, but I have nothing further to add as many have pointed out that it was procedurally correct. I am still hoping the decision can be reconsidered because, as the subsequent turmoil suggests, it does not represent the best interest of the project. I wholeheartedly endorse Newyorkbrad's proposal below. Alex Shih (talk) 04:35, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Carrite

I don't believe Sandstein is temperamentally suited for AE. If there is a place for a no confidence vote on that, I make it here. I also don't like the fact that Mongo was AE topic-banned for content or behavior not made in mainspace. I probably agree with that guy about zero politically, but fair is fair and dirty is dirty... That topic ban is for the abuse of mainspace, not a handy "put into jail free" card. Finally, I wish the political warriors would get the hell out of contemporary political biography. That might be wishing for the unachievable, but I like to think that conservatives and lefties alike can check the politics at the door and behave like NPOV-respecting Wikipedians. I don't know if Mongo qualifies as such a content warrior, but there unquestionably is a lot of political gamesmanship going on and there needs to be a topic-ban slaughter of a bunch of the gamers, in my opinion. Carrite (talk) 05:02, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

@TheGracefulSlick - Sure, he's a fantastic closer: for example, turning an obvious Keep at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of nicknames used by Donald Trump into a no consensus muddle, apparently on an IDONTLIKEIT basis or something... Carrite (talk) 09:19, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by TonyBallioni

I think that Sandstein's topic ban was good at the time: I don't think any of the alternatives would have been useful, but at the same time, seeing MONGO's appeal above, I would support it if it was lifted entirely and replaced with a strong warning about repeating similar actions. I oppose what MONGO seems to be suggesting as an NPA ban: those don't work, especially not with popular editors. If it was ever enforced, we'd wind up right back here again. A warning accomplishes the same thing, and doesn't add an additional layer of bureaucracy. Also, FWIW, as one of the editors who was subject to the actions in question, I personally didn't mind. I like MONGO, and I knew he was defending a friend. I see his point of view there, even if I obviously ended up disagreeing with it: people of good will can end up disagreeing and even calling eachother names, and it be fine, though the latter shouldn't happen frequently. I can only speak for myself in that regard, but I thought it might be worth something. Also, I think this appeal would be easier to handle at AE now that MONGO is actually appealing it, though that is of course up to him. It would also likely have a quicker resolution there. TonyBallioni (talk) 06:25, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

• @Euryalus and KrakatoaKatie: a 24 hour waiting period at AE would likely have the opposite effect that you want. The AE regulars would just go directly to a favourable admin. This is similar to how AE is becoming used less as an appeal venue in favour of AN: vested contributors have realized that a consensus of admins at AE is unlikely to overturn a legitimately imposed sanction, so they try their luck at AN. A 24 hour wait would make AE only useful for sanctioning new users, who for the most part don’t actually need AE action. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:02, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
• SMcCandlish: I’ve never suggested blocking anyone for announcing their retirement on this or any other page. I did say that I thought DHeyward’s actions at Jimbo-talk should be taken as a part of a consistent pattern of trying to test the limits of the DS system as a part of reviewing his appeal, but I think a block would be pointless, and on AE and here have explicitly said it was unclear as to whether that was a TBAN violation given the ARCA factor. TonyBallioni (talk) 10:48, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Mendaliv

I support granting the following relief to MONGO: Lifting the sanction entirely, without replacing it with another sanction. Given MONGO's statement above, which ticks all my boxes for a mea culpa and promise not to repeat, I believe it serves no further purpose and lifting it will boost general editor morale in this sector. MONGO's statement strikes me as heartfelt, genuine, thoughtful, and introspective. Moreover, the statement makes it clear that MONGO was affected by the odd circumstances of the situation, particularly the ultrafast pacing of AE (perhaps a special case of the meatball:ForestFire or meatball:AngryCloud). I think that's forgivable.

As to the other aspects of MONGO's statement, I think we should look at improving the AE/DS process generally. I believe MONGO's suggestion of a minimum 24-hour window is probably right-minded. Though I believe there should be the option for reviewing admins to take preliminary action to preserve a status quo, there should still probably be a minimum 24-hour window before that preliminary action becomes a final decision that has to go through the appeals process. 07:16, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Mr Ernie

I join SMcCandlish, Carrite, and others expressing concern with Sandstein's overall approach to AE. "Overly formalistic and bureaucratic" is a good way to put it. Even in this latest episode, after inquiries and concerns from admins and editors alike, Sandstein is convinced he has done the right thing. Also see here for another example of Sandstein's approach. That episode was kicked off by a rapid fire, controversial AE action by Sandstein and subsequent refusal to discuss with others. Sound familiar? Admins active at AE should be a little more open to feedback about their actions. That example, coupled with SMcCandlish's above seem to show that Sandstein's activity at AE sometimes causes more disruption than benefit. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:52, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Darkfrog24

I would like to add to the list by My very best wishes (talk · contribs): d) Mongo might not have known what the rules were, especially if those rules are not written down or if the written version is out of date; e) Mongo might have decided that he did not want to make a fuss and would wait until the sanction expired or until everyone calmed down/could look at the issue with fresh eyes. Any policy, written or otherwise, that places "If you don't complain or don't complain in the exact right way, then you are confessing and agreeing that you deserve to be punished" will only make trouble for Misplaced Pages by preventing people from getting punishments lifted, by saddling admins with appeals by editors who would have been willing to wait out their sanctions and by generally rendering the atmosphere more toxic. Think about it. You're an admin. You just gave an editor a sanction that they don't think they deserve but they're willing to shut up and edit somewhere else for three months. Then that editor finds out "If you don't appeal, we'll assume you agree that you're a dirty troublemaker." Well now they have to appeal and you the admin have to be on the receiving end. Appealing is not disruption, but it is work for everyone involved. There's a flip side to this. I'd like everyone to try this on for size: "Sandstein did not violate any policies. Perhaps we should modify or revoke the sanction anyway." Lifting a sanction on Mongo does not require imposing one on Sandstein. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:33, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

My very best wishes has made some good suggestions regarding DGG's musing on AE reform. I'd like to add more transparency and, to impose a sanction, the enforcing admin must state specifically what action the sanctioned editor performed with at least one dif. If someone else has to be punished for something, then the admin has to go on record that they believe they did it and that they believe it's bad. And "disruption" is a result, not an action. Say what they did.

If AE sanctions are truly intended to be anti-disruptive and not punitive, then identifying the disruptive action is the single most valuable thing to do. Even if you think the sanctioned editor is too stupid to understand, say it for the benefit of other editors reading the public, transparent thread. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:23, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by NE Ent

Condolences on the new members on election to the Ninth Circle of Hell Arbcom.

The rigidity of WP:AC/DS and the Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules pillar have not, do not, and will never co-exist very well. (Which is, of course, what NYB just said in Bradspeak). Therefore, per WP:Policy fallacy, while arbcom 18 is certainly empowered to rewrite AC/DS wording, it's really not going to help.

Stepping back to actual proximate causes, what should have been a simple appeal / rewording -- because, yes, banning an editor from mainspace due to poor wikipedia space behavior doesn't actual make sense -- blew up into this drama fest because of MONGO just having to "Retire" (see WP:OWB#40).

What ya'll really ought to -- but probably won't: although it's direct and simple and would probably work, it doesn't fit some "fairness / sympathy" vibe that mucks up WP dispute resolution -- is add this DS: Any editor who posts a RETIRED template during a dispute maybe site banned for three days by any administrator. Such a siteban may only appealed to the arbitration committee via email.

Misplaced Pages would be better served if the involved admins would, as hard as it is in the heat of the moment, to dial down the rhetoric while disagreeing.

Footnotes

1. 3 isn't so important. Make it 2, make it a week, whatever.
2. I left out "involved" intentionally.
3. Whatever length you decide, make it short enough you won't actually consider overturning it before it times out

Statement by Dennis Brown

Speaking on procedure rather than merits: I'm seeing a lot of discussion about "consensus" but it is my understanding that AE isn't about consensus at all, and in fact, any closing or action taken by any admin is theirs alone: they own it. My understanding is that any admin may close at any time, with or without sanction, and the close itself is considered an admin action (I forget the Arb case, but yes, you concluded that). And that AE isn't even required at all, that an admin can act outside of AE just as he would within the walls of that board. It is a nice sounding board for admin to hear the opinions of other admin and non-admin alike, but all *actions* are considered unilateral, whether or not others agreed, so there is no requirement to consider other opinions or gain consensus. You would have to change policy if you wanted it to become a consensus board. This complaint seems completely out of process and unsupported by policy. WP:AE or WP:AN are the normal channels to appeal, and should be filed by the sanctioned party. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Kingsindian

In response to SlimVirgin asking to post examples of admins (other than Sandstein) who overrule the consensus of uninvolved admins at AE., I can give this example (pointed to me by Tarc) by current Arb Callanecc. I don't know whether the sanction was merited or not, but what I see in that request is that any admin can use their judgement to impose sanctions and need not wait for a consensus at AE. As far as I know, this is how AE has functioned always.

Aside from this explicit example, one should also keep in mind that AE sanctions need not involve any request at all: any admin can act unilaterally. If other admins don't get a chance to weigh in, how can one determine consensus? Many of Coffee's recent blocks didn't follow an AE request. One can also recall the old Eric Corbett drama, where admins (including Arbs) engaged in this practice. This is how AE has always worked. If you want to change how AE works, do it properly, don't engage in special pleading. I will support people in the former endeavour. SMcCandlish's points are also interesting, though I haven't considered them in detail. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 04:32, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Lepricavark

I agree with SMcCandlish, Mr Ernie, Carrite and everyone else who has expressed concern with Sandstein's conduct. Sure, he may technically be empowered to hand out lengthy sanctions unilaterally and without any regard for the opinions of his peers, but that doesn't make it a good idea. As noted above, this is not the first time he has created a dramafest with his over-the-top application of sanctions. Eventually, the community is going to get fed up... maybe sooner than later. Lepricavark (talk) 20:33, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Peter Cohen

This thread was brought to my attention. I see that Sandstein is still being Sandstein and Arbcom are still being Arbcom by not bringing his actions under proper control. This is the combination that made me leave WP for some years ago. Unless Arbcom shows some sort of ability to control admins who lack empathy and whose first reaction to anyone who points out that they have done wrong is to look at what sanctions they can bring against the critic, then I have no intention of returning to Misplaced Pages and risking another outbreak of Sandsteinism against me or similar behaviour from other toxic admins. And this extends to not SOFIXITing any of the numerous errors I have spotted when browsing WP. --Peter cohen (talk) 20:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Just to point out something in common here with my experience, My case was another one in which Sandstein threatened me with sanctions under an area whose articles I have never edited. I just pointed out that he was misguided about some matters of fact to do with the sanctions he was applying to one or two others and his immediate reaction was to attack me with his Admin powers. Here is another instance where his first reaction was to try to avoid by seeking sanctions against SV and using that as a reason to close this discussion.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:43, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by (uninvolved) Coretheapple

I just saw this matter referenced on SlimVirgin's talk page. Am not acquainted with Mongo and I don't recall ever encountering him.

In this discussion I find myself in total agreement with editors with whom I rarely agree (Carrite comes to mind). It is simply wrong and deeply unfair for an administrator to issue a sweeping topic ban against an editor on the basis of comments made outside of mainspace. SlimVirgin's points are well-taken. There is nothing that bothers me more than losing good contributors on the basis of unfair or arbitrary administrator actions. I am glad that Mongo is appealing and hope that this matter is satisfactorily resolved. Coretheapple (talk) 13:30, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by (uninvolved) Mr rnddude

If I had been aware of this sooner, I would have posted here much earlier. This is my statement and is basically a copy-paste of what I said several days ago on TRM's talk page (with some fluff removed): Based on the closing sanction placed against MONGO I expected to see some AP2 related evidence of either disruptive editing or disruption on article talk pages. Instead I find that he's received a TBAN from AP2 as a remedy against personal attacks - and they were egregious personal attacks - at WP:AE, User talk:Mr X, and WP:AN. Given that sanctions should be preventative and not punitive, I think that the failure to meaningfully address the issues presented and the slapping of a TBAN that does not prevent the issues, but, does prevent any constructive editing to a topic area unrelated (strictly speaking) to the conduct is ... appalling. Nothing, except an impending future block, prevents MONGO from repeating those exact same comments in any place that isn't covered by AP2. This is, quite obviously, meant to punish MONGO for their comments and not prevent them from making similar comments in the future. I too echo SV's sentiment: what can be done? first to prevent this sort of renegade punitive sanctions in the future and second how do we address the renegade actions of admins who impose such sanctions. Thank you for your time, Mr rnddude (talk) 14:09, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by RexxS

I'm pleased to see that we have a reasonable outcome at this point. Nevertheless this request for clarification has not clarified the underlying problem, that the mechanism of AE is unbalanced. No matter how many admins review the issue and conclude that no action is necessary, or a warning is sufficient, it only takes one admin to decide that excessively punitive sanctions are justified for them to be applied. And unfortunately we have at least one admin who is not capable of taking a nuanced view, but can only follow unbendingly what they perceive policy to be. With normal sanctions there are checks and balances for that – other admins may reverse the first decision or reduce its severity on their judgement, but AE has removed those checks, allowing unfettered use of admin powers. This would be ameliorated if there were a functional mechanism for questioning AE decisions, but when an admin refuses point-blank to listen to criticism of their actions, and even hides behind a rigid interpretation of policy preventing anyone but the recipient of the sanctions from appealing those sanctions, we find ourselves without recourse. Kudos to Sarah for making an IAR appeal, and to the Arbs for entertaining it. It was the right thing™ to do. Now, I request that the Arbs carefully consider whether they want this IAR mechanism as the only alternative to an unfairly sanctioned editor – who is likely already too pissed-off to want to re-engage – making an appeal themselves. You need to fix the problem: you could vet the admins whom you allow to work at AE; or create a mechanism that ensures that other admins' views have to be taken into account in determining any AE action; or create usable channel for review of AE decisions. This isn't the first time this issue has arisen and it won't be the last unless you act. The present situation is untenable, and if left unaddressed will surely recur. --RexxS (talk) 14:28, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Sir Joseph

Many people have already stated my opinion, so I will just be brief. I think what is needed is a total redoing of the AE space. Perhaps a working group of several members can start the process to make it a more fair and equitable place for adjudication. It's not working the way it is now, so we need to try something else. (On a side note, I do think we should also bring back RFC/U, which would IMO cut down on AN/I requests.) Sir Joseph 15:48, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

American politics 2: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Recuse having made a statement. GoldenRing (talk) 17:04, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

American politics 2: Arbitrator views and discussion

• Recuse from anything specific to this particular topic ban/AE thread. If this turns into a discussion on AE/discretionary sanctions generally, I do not intend to be recused from that. ~ Rob₁₃ 00:01, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
• Awaiting any further statements, including from Sandstein. Note that we'll read through the related AE thread in reviewing this, so there's no need to re-post here every thought that was posted there. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:55, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
  • My thoughts:

Yes, the general rule is that only the subject of a sanction can appeal it. This usually makes good sense. If an editor who is (for example) blocked or topic-banned on AE accepts the sanction, that usually means it's more-or-less reasonable, and it wouldn't do anyone any good for someone else to protest it. And the appeal system might be overwhelmed if anyone could appeal from any sanction against anyone else.

This rule against User:A's appealing User:B's sanction works well 95+% of the time. But it occasionally causes problems, in instances where many editors deeply disagree with a sanction and think it's unfair or wrongful, but the sanctioned editor refuses to appeal it for whatever reason. (For anyone who might not have noticed it, MONGO's explanation for not having appealed is here. I appreciate his desire not to create drama by appealing, but we are getting the drama anyway.) When this situation came up in a case two years ago, I asked whether exceptions to the rule might sometimes be justified. Unfortunately, no one was able to suggest how to craft the exceptions without swallowing the rule.

This ARCA request has much the same effect as SlimVirgin's appealing from the sanction against MONGO. She (and some of the commenters) also raise broader questions about how AE functions, but they are raised in the context of a particular AE decision that she disagrees with, and if we agreed with her views, then presumably we would consider overturning that decision.

Nonetheless, since I've spent the time reviewing the case, and MONGO may appeal in the future, let's talk about the substance a little bit and see if we can actually resolve this. We can all agree that MONGO's comments were a series of uncivil and unhealthy personal attacks. Some of them could be blockable even if they didn't relate to a topic-area under DS. And this is not the first time MONGO has lost his head on-wiki. In the same diff cited above, MONGO acknowledged yesterday that I made some hasty comments (not my first as I do write passionately at times) that were highly insulting to a number of editors. I was wrong to make so many deep insults and I do need to remind myself that we all should try and pretend we are sitting in the same room together, maybe we have vastly divergent opinions, maybe we can find commonality, but we all and especially me need to be a whole lot nicer to each other.

As noted by SlimVirgin, NeilN, and others, MONGO's misconduct did not take place in article space, but primarily on AE (and, a month ago, on AN). I can imagine cases in which misconduct on noticeboards or talkpages warrants a topic-ban that includes mainspace— but here, no one has identified any bad article-space edits at all. As MONGO wrote, in his first response to the enforcement request, y comments here at AE where I will gladly impose a self exile.

Although there is no appeal formally before us, in anticipation of a possible one (or under IAR if need be), I ask Sandstein and the other admins in the AE thread if they would consider substituting for the three-month topic-ban a restriction for six months against MONGO's (1) participating in AE discussions relating to editors other than himself, and (2) making personal attacks against other editors. I also ask MONGO whether he would accept such a result, and just as importantly, abide by it. And I would also say to MONGO that this has to be the last time we have this discussion.

With regard to the broader issue of "whether an AE sanction requires consensus," this has been discussed before. An AE administrator is not required to wait for consensus, especially when there is an obvious violation. But where discussion is ongoing, opinion is divided, and disruption is not ongoing, it will often be prudent to wait for at least a rough consensus to emerge. There's also been a repeated suggestion that AE threads, absent ongoing disruption or other urgency, should stay open for at least 24 hours.

I hope these comments help. Procedural formalism would suggest that I should have written "improper appeal" (or, for the benefit of my legal colleagues Sandstein and Salvio giuliano, "rule of jus tertii") and nothing more—but procedural formalism doesn't sustain a community or write an encyclopedia. But neither does making accusations against other editors or calling one another various names. That point, incidentally, applies not only to MONGO. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:46, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

@Sandstein: Confirming per your latest comments that I have no objection to your lifting the topic-ban. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:57, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

@Sandstein: Since discussion has wound down, you can please go ahead and lift the topic-ban, as you've indicated you believe should happen, without waiting any longer. As a practical matter it has all but already happened anyway—in self-parodying legal terms, aequitas factum habet quod fieri oportuit—"equity looks upon as done that which ought to have been done." Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:07, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

• Recuse. Alex Shih (talk) 04:35, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
• It seems we do have an appeal before us now. Brad's comments are well-reasoned and I agree, though I don't like civility/NPA restrictions. They're difficult to enforce and have historically created more drama about what is and isn't civil or uncivil. In this case, though, MONGO seems to agree to a six-month NPA restriction and a concurrent ban on AE participation, and I would be in favor of that in the interest of settling this down sooner rather than later. MONGO says he realizes that his behavior has not always been collegial, and if he knows it, he should be able to restrain himself. I also concur with Brad's directive that this has to be the last warning to MONGO about his temper.
  

I also strongly suggest that AE admins take to heart the repeated suggestion about holding those threads open for at least 24 hours unless there's current, ongoing disruption. That was not the case here; we're all busy and we need to give people time to see these requests. Just because you can close it doesn't necessarily mean you should. Katie 12:02, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

@Sandstein: Also confirming that I have no objection to you lifting the topic ban yourself. Katie 17:35, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

• Mostly what KrakatoaKatie and Newyorkbrad said, except the bit about replacement sanctions:

- Accept this appeal: MONGO has now lodged an appeal, which overcomes a technical issue with this discussion. Sandstein’s most recent comment reads like they accept that appeal. If so, the path of least bureaucracy would be for them to now lift the topic ban. But if we do need an actual ARCA vote on it, support lifting the topic ban and replacing it with nothing. MONGO: it seems like heat of the moment stuff. Please don't do it again.

- Support an AE waiting period Separate to anything in this appeal, we have long needed a minimum time between AE filing and close. I've supported this since 2016, including at Arbcom election time and this talkpage thread. Great to see it proposed again in this thread. Strongly support an amendment to this procedure to impose a 24-hour waiting period between AE filing and close, with exceptions only for obvious ongoing vandalism and for snow declines.

- Support a further clarification As a proposal again unrelated to this specific appeal, support this amendment: ”Administrators do not need explicit consensus to enforce arbitration decisions and can always act unilaterally. However, when the case is not clear-cut they are encouraged reasonably expected, before acting, to seek input from their colleagues at arbitration enforcement.” -- Euryalus (talk) 13:03, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

@Sandstein and Alanscottwalker: AE appeals can be made directly to the enforcing admin; if the enforcing admin has accepted the appeal it seems the path of least bureaucracy to proceed with that acceptance, at least in this instance. But equally happy to go ahead with a vote by the committee. -- Euryalus (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

@Alanscottwalker: I think we'll have to disagree, then. The procedure grants the enforcing admin the authority to make a direct decision on appeals of their action. There's a legitimate case for an enforcing admin to decline to do so on the grounds that the appeal is being considered in another forum, but there's also the option for them to proceed if they wish, at least while those other fora have failed to reach a point of view (after which those other fora would prevail in likely order of seniority). In neither case is it a matter of "getting it wrong" - a sanction was unilaterally imposed (as authorised by the procedure), it can be unilaterally undone by the same admin (also as authorised by the procedure) if they consider the appeal to have validity. But again, no problem if it's preferred to be remanded here for a vote. -- Euryalus (talk) 14:58, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

- I agree that Mongo's appeal should be accepted and also hope that action by us will not be needed and that Sandstein will lift the topic ban. Likewise I will support any motion calling for a minimum time between a filing at AE and a decision, given appropriate exceptions. I haven't definitely decided about Euryalus's proposal about explicit consensus but at the moment it appeals to me. Doug Weller talk 18:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

@Sandstein: You really don't need a majority of Arbs to do this. And I hope you counted me: "hope that action by us will not be needed and that Sanstein will lift the topic ban." Doug Weller talk 17:48, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

@Sandstein: I’ve removed TPP but of course tou could have posted through it. Doug Weller talk 07:26, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm on the same page as Euryalus. Mongo's appeal should be accepted, preferably by Sandstein - though I'm sure if he refuses we can sort out a motion. I'm not sure I agree with a minimum time period between filing AE and decision, in many cases this is not needed - If someone can think of a way to increase the general period, but to allow a short circuit for urgency (e.g. 1RR violations). Finally, I do like the suggestion that reasonably expected thoughts of other admins be taken into account. Worm(talk) 14:16, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Clarification request: Editing of Biographies of Living Persons

Initiated by DHeyward at 02:24, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

Editing of Biographies of Living Persons arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• DHeyward (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• TonyBallioni (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• diff of notification TonyBallioni
• diff of notification Sandstein

Statement by DHeyward

On 2 December 2017 I was topic banned for 1 month from articles about living and recently deceased American politicians, and related topics, broadly construed, by admin TonyBallioni. TonyBallioni had placed an article under 1RR using discretionary sanctions authorized under the BLP arbcom (note: not AP2). It was determined I violated a 1RR restriction.
I return to editing and I see an article I created in September, Kris Paronto, was prodded. He is not a politician. I fill in references, etc, etc. It was then put up for AfD. On 9 December 2017 TonyBallioni files an enforcement request for a "topic ban violation" for "creation of article about Mr. Paronto, including overall Benghazi attack template directly adding information related to criticism of the Obama administration by Mr. Paronto, See all other edits to Kris Paronto" He hadn't edited the article or otherwise engaged in the deletion discussion when filed as a party. The first allegation of creation was obviously in error.
Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) is the only administrator to comment with "I think that this is technically not a violation. The topic ban was phrased as "topic-banned from articles about ... politicians and related topics". This means that the ban encompasses only politician-related articles, not politician-related edits. While the edits here are related to politics, the article as a whole is not related to any specific politician. If that was not the intention, the topic ban was poorly worded."

Later that same day, TonyBallioni IAR'd and withdrew the request noting "Withdrawing this myself per IAR and Sandstein's comments. This is causing more confusion than it is clarification, and apparently my wording wasn't as clear as I thought it was. Apologies to all involved for wasting any time and anything construed as being personal." . He apologizes on my talk page with similar language ] adding "If that wasn't clear to others, then I worded it poorly and that mistake is on me."

Nobody changes or clarifies the TBAN (or even whether it is an ABAN which I raised Dec 9) so a reasonable person would conclude that the actions were not a violation.

Fast forward to January 4. The sanction is expired. An editor brings a violation for editing Erica Garner .

Another editor combs through my edits and finds I edited Joe Scarborough about on Dec 30 about 30 days into the 1 month topic ban and lists it as a "blatant violation." My edit was to restore long-standing consensus that mentioning the death of an aide is a BLP violation and I removed it because the Washington Post said it's bullshit. I had linked that article to the Scarborough talk page in November, before the TBAN, to head off the aspersions that surely would follow. Sure enough, people came to readd it. It's like someone adding the Vince Foster suicide to Hillary Clinton - it's a BLP violation to try and link the deaths of these people into biographies of living people, at least in my mind and I've been battling the people adding it for 10 years (see Lori Klausutis and the AfDs if you have any need to see what depths people sank to to keep the smear alive).

Scarborough is no longer a politician and has not run or held office in 17 years. But back to AE: Now, there are tons of admins weighing in. Sandstein and TonyBallioni don't mention the Dec 9 filing and outcome. They both are aware by edit with the problems of clarity and confusion. There is no debate regarding whether my edits advanced the purpose of Misplaced Pages. No one is aware of the history of Scarborough and the eath of his aide 20 years ago, just that Trump smeared him.

No mention the Dec 9 closing where Sandstein said it was confusing and Tony blamed himself so everyone is operating on their own fresh reading of the ban. TonyBallioni then decides the topic ban should be extended and changed to an AP2 topic ban to avoid confusion. My edit at Scarborough stands as of now and violated nothing. If anything it reinforced both the AP2 and BLP findings by ArbCom. The actual filer of the Jan 4 complaint that lengthened my TBAN was admonished because his complaint was baseless.

My request for clarification is: when an admin acknowledges confusion in interpretation, files and withdraws complaints that acknowledges it's on him but in the end ignores all that, creates a new TBAN under a different ArbCom remedy even though I didn't violate an AP2 remedies, how is it possible for an editor to keep up with these shifting sands? If an admin realizes there is a clarity issue, shouldn't they have a duty to clarify it before sanctioning? --DHeyward (talk) 02:24, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Fyddlestix the article ban policy says The word "article" usually refers only to mainspace pages. If any other related pages (such as the page's talk page) are to be covered it will usually be stated explicitly. and that was stated by Sandstein on Dec 9. --DHeyward (talk) 03:08, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Fyddlestix Again, Dec 9th, Sandstein said articles that aren't about politicians can be edited even when the edits were about politicians. Erica Garner was/is not a politician. The only edit comes down to whether we should mention the death of a former employee on Scarboroughs article. Reasonable people may conclude that A) he is no longer a politician just as he now longer is a lawyer or college student and B) references to Klausutis have been removed for years for obvious BLP reasons. it's why my "violating" edit still stands. --DHeyward (talk) 04:00, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

TonyBallioni you're correct that the fast pace of AE is frustrating and Masem made a blatant error on the dates of Scarborough edit. It was also discouraging to note that you did not bring up your own filing and unclear sanction. It's impossible to keep up with the noise and ignorance, let alone the lack of accountability when a sanction. I asked for clarification when you filed as a party and you didn't clarify. When you filed as a party on Dec 9, you didn't recuse later per admin accountabilty but instead ignored your own admission of vagueness and implemented a new ban under a different arncom remedy. Shit, I don't even know when it expires because it's new but you keep saying it's an extension. What you should have done is to come out and say "I fucked up, the TBAN is expired. All the edits were productive." Only the last statement is true, though - "All the edits were productive." That makes you "THAT admin." --DHeyward (talk) 04:00, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

tony here's all my Scarborough edits. I realize this might be your first go round with it but come on. A trump tweet followed by WaPo calling it BS doesn't mean we add it. Ted Cruz didn't assassinate Kennedy and Clinton didn't kill Vince Foster. Trump Tweeted all three and WaPo called bullshit on all three and your assertion that it might be okay only in Scarborough is awful interpretation of BLP policy. A good question to ask yourself in these decisions is : "Will the WaPo include this information in the obit?" Answer: no. The fact that you don't see that it could be a BLP and the he might not be considered a politician is a huge AGF problem solved by a talk page comment. It's lunacy to think the same edit 3 days later is okay. --DHeyward (talk) 04:15, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by TonyBallioni

• Joe Scarborough is unambiguously an American politician: he is a former member of congress. That was a bright line that was clearly crossed over. The other cases were edge cases, but there were enough of them that I felt, as did the other admins at AE, that combined with the clear violation at Scarborough, the topic ban should be reset. Two other administrators suggested making the ban broader since there might have been some confusion: I agreed that was wise given the previous sanction. Regardless, Scarborough was a bright line, and it was not an obvious BLP violation as required by WP:BANEX, and the text removed was substantially different than previous versions removed on BLP grounds to the point where classifying them as the same topic is even a stretch: it was about Trump advancing a conspiracy theory and was cited to the Washington Post, and specifically called the incident unfounded conspiracy theories. This is substantially different than previous versions reverted: , . A reasonable editor could have made an argument for it's inclusion on the talk page, and have argued that there were a change in circumstances. That means that it is not covered by WP:BANEX.I will note that my sanction here was the unanimous consensus of all admins commenting on the AE thread, and that there was no consensus at AN to overturn the appeal. I have no issue with the committee reviewing my actions here, and I have admitted and realized the topic ban could have been worded better to begin with: that does not affect DHeyward's sanction in this case however, as there was a clear and blatant TBAN violation and there were several others that were on the edges here.I also think that the committee should take into account DHeyward's conduct on his talk page, where he edit warred to redirect it to AE: , , at AE, where he edit warred to restore commentary in the middle of another editor's comments: , , and at AN, where he bludgeoned the conversation by pasting the same statement to multiple editors who endorsed this sanction: , , (and I think there are more, but it would likely be easier to see by reading the thread). This all is disruptive editing that makes both the AE process and the appeals more difficult for uninvolved editors to review, and has the potential to have a chilling effect on those that disagree with him. Despite this, there was no consensus at AN to overturn the sanction, and the consensus of administrators at AE was to reset the topic ban. I am fine with whatever the committee decides to do, but I see no way to get around the fact that a former member of congress who is also a prominent political commentator is well within this topic ban on living and recently deceased American politicians, and related topics, broadly construed., even without getting to the edge cases that also factored into the AE consensus. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:20, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
• I will also note that Andrew Davidson was not admonished for a baseless complaint, he was warned not to use hyperbole because of statements like tags Erica Garner, suggesting that her life did not matter, which is a derogatory implication given her role in Black Lives Matter and This is the first of several edits which seek to disrupt and destroy this article. I, as well as other admins, did consider these edits presented by Andrew as part of a pattern of editing around the edge, but the Scarborough edit was the bright line violation in my mind. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:45, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
• DHeyward: the last day of your current topic ban is 4 February 2018. You may begin editing in the topic area again on 5 February 2018 unless ArbCom lifts the sanction earlier. I hope that is clear. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:15, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
• Just noting for the committee that Volunteer Marek has filed a new AE request based on this sanction against DHeyward. See: this section. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:25, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
• Since I have been asked: no, I will not be removing my sanction. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:56, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
• Newyorkbrad, I agree, in general, with your observations, but of course with the difference that I thought it was worth sanctioning. There are two factors that I think you and ArbCom should also consider here: the pattern of behavior that occurred both before and after this new topic ban which is now being discussed at AE, and the behavior of DHeyward during the AE thread itself. On the first case, from my reading of the AE thread, and the previous AE action where DHeyward had 4 reverts on a 1RR article, followed by a self-revert to his preferred version, he had a pattern of pushing the limits on what was acceptable in a sanctions, claiming BLP exemptions that are not obvious (as required by WP:3RRNO and WP:BANEX), and then attempting to WikiLawyer around them. At some point when there is a pattern of continually approaching the line and stepping up to it, an individual crosses it, and I felt, as did the other AE admins, that DHeyward's behavior here, especially on the Scarborough article, reached that point. This pattern can also be seen with the new AE thread: if he had made that post while his appeal wasn't being considered at ARCA, it would have been an unquestionable topic ban violation, but because Jimmy Wales still in theory has the right of appeal from ArbCom (which he never exercises), it is a grey area that admins are put in an impossible place of enforcing: his commentary was more on the state of American politics on Misplaced Pages than anything else, but he discussed my comment at this ARCA as a part of it, so it was grey.Finally, I do want to address DHeyward's behavior at AE, which I linked to in diff's above. I did consider Mr. Ernie's suggestion on DHeyward's talk page that I let it off with a warning: it would have been the easiest way out. At the same time, DHeyward had violated TPO on AE, and edit warred to reinsert those violations. He'd also just redirected his own talk page to AE, effectively canvassing his watchers there, and had edit warred to keep the redirect. Both of these behaviors are disruptive, especially to a high intensity process that attracts partisans from every angle to defend their friend or attack their opponent. I felt that the behavior in the thread, combined with what I saw as a bright line violation at Scarborough, and edge cases elsewhere, meant that DHeyward was likely to continue to be disruptive in areas where discretionary sanctions were active, as he had previously when hitting 4 reverts on a 1RR article.There was a consensus at AE that the topic ban should be reset, and that it should be made AP2, and I had reason to believe that he would likely continue disruption in the topic area since he was demonstrating the same behavior that led to a topic ban (edit warring) during the AE process. Given these circumstances, and the fact that the AN appeal did not achieve consensus to overturn, I think I was within my discretion to act upon the consensus of AE admins, and that I could reasonably expect that the TBAN would be preventative rather than punishment. I'm sorry to the arbs for my long comment, but this is a complex situation, and I felt that I should explain as clear as possible the reasoning given some of the questions Newyorkbrad raised. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:53, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
  • KrakatoaKatie, yes, I agree looking back, the sanction should have been an AP2 sanction. Oddly enough, I was trying to prevent WikiLawyering when I placed the article under the BLP page level restrictions at the time. I did not clarify after the 9 December AE, because I thought at the time it was clear that politicians were covered, and he should take a wide breadth from them. I had already been accused of being on a vendetta against him (which I wasn't), and I felt that increasing the sanctions for AP2 at that time he might view as vindictive rather than a clarification, but I also felt that the ban shouldn't be removed, because 4 reverts on 1RR is a lot of disruption.In terms of this specific appeal, and your question regarding politicians, I will push back a bit. While you can argue whether or not the city councilman is an American politician here, when the article at the time it was edited has as the first thing in it's infobox his political service as a Member of Congress, and he is included in both Category:21st-century American politicians and Category:20th-century American politicians, and when you consider that he is probably the most high profile news media personality to be in conflict with the President of the United States, I think he falls squarely within the sanction, just by looking at the article itself. I also see a history of trying to get around sanctions in this area, both with the original TBAN AE thread, the actions that led to this AE, and the various actions afterwards.Finally, in the context of the appeal above, I think it would be a bad idea for the committee to overturn this. Above, Sandstein is being critiqued for acting independently of other admins when there was no clear consensus at AE. Here, I acted with the unanimous consensus of all AE admins, and the appeal was not overturned at AN. While the committee is of course free to do as it chooses, criticizing one administrator for his actions not working with other admins in AE above, while also overturning a sanction that was unanimously deemed to be merited by other administrators at AE makes the forum very difficult to work in, and raises the question of whether an administrator should unilaterally close an AE filing without sanctions, when there is a clear agreement amongst administrators that sanctions should occur. I'm willing to admit my mistakes in the original TBAN wording, and while I can see why others might not have sanctioned, given the information that I was faced with at the time, the disruption that had been actively occuring on AE, and the consensus of administrators there, I think that I acted within discretion and in a procedurally correct manner. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:06, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
• Kingsindian: to your question of why TBAN him: because he has consistently shown over the last month that he is an editor who simply doesn't care what the behavioral norms are of Misplaced Pages or what sanctions are in place so long as he thinks he is right. That indicates a strong likelihood that he will continue to be disruptive in the topic area. His edits here might be done in good faith (he thinks he is right, that he is being wronged, etc.) but they are still disruptive. That's how he got in this situation to begin with: 4 reverts on a 1RR article. It is a serious behavioral problem that needs to be addressed, and skirting the topic ban around the edges, and then crossing the on an article he should have at least thought to asks demonstrates that he could use some more time off from this area to hopefully cool down and get used to editing in less contentious areas where there is less feuding between people from different POVs. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:50, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Sandstein

My involvement in this is superficial and of an administrative nature. I declined to take action in an enforcement request of 9 December 2017 against DHeyward because, for the reasons cited by DHeyward, I did not think that DHeyward's actions as reported there violated their topic ban. As concerns the enforcement request of 4 January 2018 at issue here, I closed DHeyward's appeal at WP:AN against the ban imposed by TonyBallioni, finding that there was not the required clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved editors to overturn the ban.

I have not formed a opinion of my own about the merits of the ban, and I don't think that I need to, because I think that this appeal should be rejected on procedural grounds. Although follow-up appeals to ARCA from AN or AE are allowed, I believe that, to avoid forum shopping, ArbCom should not review such appeals de novo, but focus on any important procedural errors with the sanction or the appeal below. To the extent I understand this somewhat confusing appeal, such errors are not being alleged here. Sandstein 07:16, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by NeilN

• Enforcement case
• Appeal and decline

--NeilN 02:32, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Fyddlestix

Come on. This was already appealed at AN and the appeal was declined. Do we really want everyone who is unhappy with their AE sanction appealing to both AN and to ARCA going forward? You can interpret the topic ban as narrowly as you want, it was still clearly and obviously violated. The wikilayering here is ridiculous and should not be tolerated. Fyddlestix (talk) 02:44, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

In reply to some of the comments since I posted this: I'm happy to defer to admins and arbs and accept that the appeal is within established process - I'm not sure I was really arguing otherwise: my point was more simply that DHeyward has used every possible means to challenge these sanctions every step of the way. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but if you believe - as I do - that the tban violation was clear cut then it does seem disruptive. Also, if the 2 appeals currently under consideration here end with the sanction being overturned you should probably all be prepared to spend a lot more time reading arca appeals of ae sanctions going forward.

As for the violation itself, I'm a bit flummoxed to see so many admins and others argue that Scarborough is not a politician. Someone who has been a member of Congress definitely deserves that label, and I would push back against the assertion that they stop being a politician the moment the stop serving. Joe Scarborough is, after all, in Category:20th-century American politicians, and you only need look at articles like Nick Galifianakis (politician) (to pick just one random example out of many) to see that members of Congress are frequently referred to as "politicians" - even long after they're dead or have left office. Our BLP articles obviously detail what people did throughout their lives not just what they are doing right now, it seems absurd to me that a biography of someone who served in Congress should not be considered a biography of a politician. Fyddlestix (talk) 19:46, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Sir Joseph

No matter how many times TonyBallioni says "Scarborough is unambiguously a politician" doesn't make it so. Sir Joseph 03:56, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

I think the ban should be rescinded and a huge trout to TonyBalioni for without him, we would not be in this position we are in now. He wrote a horrible TBAN, DHeyward followed the TBAN, got an AE action against him a while back and it was closed as no violation, and DHeyward used that and then a new TBAN is given to DHeyward for following the rules and precedent. Is it any wonder people have problems? Sir Joseph 17:27, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Volunteer Marek

The irony here is that THIS ARCA belies claims made in the ARCA right above it. Specifically:

In the AP2 ARCA right above SlimVirgin says: "What can be done about this situation at AE, which seems to have been going on forever, that Sandstein can simply ignore the views of other uninvolved admins? ". Note she does not offer any diffs or any other evidence for this claim aside from the fact that she doesn't like how the MONGO report was closed.

In this ARCA we actually see clear evidence that her claim is false: " I declined to take action in an enforcement request of 9 December 2017 against DHeyward because, for the reasons cited by DHeyward, I did not think that DHeyward's actions as reported there violated their topic ban"

So apparently Sandstein DOES NOT in fact "ignore the views of other uninvolved admins". Gee, perhaps the consensus in the MONGO case was actually leaning towards the way that Sandstein closed it?

As for DHeyward, this is what, the fourth FORUM he's brought up this in? Maybe just the third. What Fyddlestix said.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:05, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Dheyward has already made an appeal and it was rejected, so it's not clear what the purpose of this is, except as a thinly disguised "appeal of an appeal of an appeal a sanction".Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:03, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

So... how about we get an actual clarification here. If you get a DS, through WP:AE otherwise, exactly where and how many times can you appeal? It seems like the appeal procedure is: 1) on the sanctioning admin's talk page, then 2) at WP:AN, then 3) here then 4) Jimbo I guess. Is it possible to squeeze in WP:AE or WP:AN/I in there too? Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:15, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Andrew Davidson

Please note the original timeline. The topic ban was first placed on 2 Dec while DHeyward started editing Erica Garner on 31 Dec, which is within the same calendar month. My view was that this clearly violated the topic ban as the Garner topic was related to multiple US politicians, when "broadly construed", as the ban stated. Myself, I have no particular axe to grind about US politics as I'm British and had only started the article in response to a request at the Women in Red Project. The subject was getting a lot of traffic and was posted on the main page in ITN. I was therefore concerned that the article should not be improperly tagged while it was getting such exposure. I have been previously told by an OTRS admin (RexxS iirc) that such tags can often cause offense when they suggest that the subject is not notable. The subject was covered by the policy BDP and so the matter seemed reasonably serious. Maybe I didn't explain this well but the AE submission form is quite complex and it was quite late at night when I was working through its intricate requirements for diffs and detail. Some latitude should please be allowed for editors who are trying to use the process in good faith but find it difficult.

On 4 Jan, the topic ban was then restated as "DHeyward is banned for one month from all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people, broadly construed." On 6 Jan, DHeyward made several edits to the article about Brian Krzanich, e.g. this. That article recounts "Krzanich's involvement in politics" and repeatedly details Krzanich's interaction with Trump and the policies of his administration. Editing this article therefore seems to be a fresh violation of the topic ban.

Andrew D. (talk) 08:21, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Mr Ernie

User:TonyBallioni's original topic ban placed on DHeyward was not a well formed sanction. Tony himself didn't even seem to understand what it covered, as seen by the AE request he brought and then retracted. If the sanctioning admin can't understand a sanction they create, how can we expect an editor to? Additionally, DHeyward's offending edit was removing a borderline BLP error. I will assume good faith and believe DHeyward when he says he didn't think Scarborough qualified as a politician AND that he was enforcing BLP. What caused more disruption to the project? The offending edit was a clear improvement to the article. The resulting attempts to punish DHeyward for running afoul of a poorly worded sanction and subsequent appeals have taken us to AN, Jimbo's page, AE (trips for DHeyward, MONGO, and The Rambling Man), and now ARCA. Tony continues to support his sanction, claiming the consensus from fellow admins at AE is on his side - but of course it is. Admin's rarely choose to side with editors when potential admin mistakes are involved, especially editors who have committed the cardinal sin of having a block log.

Tony, would you consider removing the current topic ban on DHeyward? His behavior will certainly be closely watched. We've already had one editor retire as a direct result of your administrative actions, and it appears we'll soon have another one retire (if he isn't blocked first). Mr Ernie (talk) 18:39, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

GoldenRing if we can all accept, as you say, that it was a badly-constructed ban, then it seems to me the natural course of action is to either clarify the ban or remove it, not insist that it be enforced. TonyBallioni chose the latter course of action, and it is hard to see how that benefited anything. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:44, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by SMcCandlish (uninvolved)

While I'm here: I agree with Mr Ernie. It doesn't make sense to enforce a sanction that was unclear to everyone, admittedly so by its author, who didn't get around to clarifying it. Especially when a) it was about to expire anyway, b) the edits were actually productive and made in good faith, and c) whether the article in question even qualifies is questionable. A friend of mine who died of cancer last year, and who was a Unix system administrator and a book author, and might conceivably be notable, also ran for local public office one time, about 30 years ago. Does that make him a politician?

This does seem to me to be of-a-piece with the Tony1 wrongful block situation, and the AE report by SarahSV above. Some sanctions-related bolt has come loose and needs to be re-tightened, firmly.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ<  22:54, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by My very best wishes

That was a topic ban for only one month. Openly violating his topic ban (see the related thread on AE) and making this forum shopping on several noticeboards shows that DHeyward does not respect WP community and its rules. Therefore, I think he made correct decision by retiring from the project . This thread should be closed simply because the filer had officially retired. On the other hand, the filer did not ask himself to close this thread. This is an indication he is not actually going to retire. My very best wishes (talk) 23:47, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

(re to comment by Rob below). I do not think Arbcom should allow 2nd re-appeal on the Amendment noticeboard when the appeal on AE has been rejected. After all, that was the task of WP:AE to consider such appeals. In any case, the entire behavior pattern (i.e. appealing on AE, AN and here and simultaneously violating their topic ban on the talk page of Jimbo and retiring) looks to me as an disruption and WP:POINT. My very best wishes (talk) 16:15, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

• I think reforming the system of discretionary sanctions (as suggested by DGG) could be reasonable. Two suggestions are obvious:

1. These sanctions can be simply removed in many subject areas, although US politics is probably not one of them.
2. Arbcom could define a limited "toolbox" of specific types of restrictions that could be used by admins in such areas. For example, making 1RR restriction for a page would be allowed, but highly complicated restrictions (such as "consensus required" by Coffee) would not be included in the toolbox. That would help a lot. My very best wishes (talk) 21:25, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Kingsindian

I'll provide a summary of the events as I see them. There are three main acts:

1. Volunteer Marek brings an AE request against DHeyward for edit-warring. TonyBallioni TBAN-ed DHeyward on 2 December 2017 for edit-warring on the article Roy Moore sexual abuse allegations, which he had placed under 1RR and consensus required provision. Please note the latter point, because it is important and I'll come back to it. TonyBallioni is a fervent defender of the "consensus required" provision in numerous venues (and I am a fervent opponent; however, the latter fact is not relevant here because I did not take any admin actions here). According to TonyBallioni "consensus required" is a good provision intended to enforce WP:ONUS, namely the requirement that the person who inserts the text has to prove consensus, not the person who removes it. The wording of the TBAN is articles about living and recently deceased American politicians, and related topics, broadly construed
2. TonyBallioni brings an AE request against DHeyward for violation of the TBAN. Sandstein determines that the TBAN hasn't been violated because While the edits here are related to politics, the article as a whole is not related to any specific politician. If that was not the intention, the topic ban was poorly worded. TonyBallioni acknowledged that the wording was poor, and withdrew the request.
3. Andrew Davidson brought an AE request against DHeyward. It is 100% certain that based on the diffs provided by Andrew Davidson, DHeyward wouldn't have been sanctioned at all; indeed, Andrew Davidson was admonished in the closing statement for their "hyperbole". However, Volunteer Marek brought forward other diffs in the AE request, which were also investigated, first by Zero0000 and later by others. The decisive edit (agreed to by all people involved) was DHeyward's edit on Joe Scarborough. I am using the word "decisive" properly: without the Scarborough edit, it is very unlikely that DHeyward would have been sanctioned.

Now we come to the Scarborough edit.

• Scarborough is described in the lead of his article as an American cable news and talk radio host. He has not been a politician for 17 years. However, let's assume for the sake of argument that "past politicians" is covered in the TBAN. So the only way in which DHeyward's edit would be allowed is if it was removing a BLP violation. I come to this very point.
• Some history of the text at issue. I have already given a full account in the WP:AN request; please also see TonyBallioni's responses to me. Here, I give a capsule summary of the important points. The text in question was inserted by a throwaway sock/troll account called The-internminator (the woman who died was an intern). They also likely used socks/IPs for this purpose (see this, this and this, for example). Trump had tweeted about this matter, which WaPo (among others) deemed as a conspiracy theory without any basis in fact. Please see the talk page discussion here, where no consensus was found for any inclusion of text, of whatever phrasing.
• WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE is an integral part of BLP policy. Since no consensus for any text was found, edit-warring against consensus by the IP/sock/troll was illegitimate and a BLP violation. This is what happened initially: eventually the person (ScottSteiner) who was edit-warring with the IP/troll rewrote the passage into something closer to neutrality, which seemed to satisfy the IP/troll/sock. Again, the crucial point is that there was no consensus for this phrasing either.
• DHeyward had removed this text (or something like it) many times over many years; see this for an example. It is well-known that such things in political areas are litigated over and over, often for years. This particular edit has been fought over since at least 2004.
• This is not really important, but Volunteer Marek himself was the target of reverts by a sock/troll of some smears he claimed to be a BLP violation, on Andrew McCabe. See this AN request. This kind of stuff is routine in political areas.

Now, I come to the punchline. There is a good-faith determination that DHeyward thought that he was removing a BLP violation and did not intend to violate his topic ban. His edit was completely proper (in fact, required under WP:BLP), and it has stood undisturbed since he made it. TonyBallioni's professed concern about WP:ONUS and "consensus required" also points to this outcome. Nobody claims that DHeyward's edits were disruptive or harmed the encyclopedia. TonyBallioni's ban was poorly worded and confusing to even himself.

So why was DHeyward TBANned? Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:26, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by GoldenRing

@Newyorkbrad: As I've said privately to TonyBallioni, I can't see how the topic scope "living and recently deceased American politicians, and related topics, broadly construed" is any different to "post-1932 American politics," since anything political is necessarily "related" to politicians. I certainly can't see how it could be construed as narrower than a standard AP2 TBAN; it might be arguably broader, since politicians might have other non-political interests which would fall under "related topics, broadly construed." The wording appears at first glance to be narrower than an AP2 TBAN but actually isn't and I think everyone accepts that it was a badly-constructed ban. The only respect in which it is clearly narrower than an AP2 ban is that it only applies in article space (and perhaps with respect to people involved in post-1932 politics but who are long deceased, but that question doesn't come up here).

Given that scope, the question is not whether Erica Garner or Joe Scarborough are living or recently deceased politicians, but whether they are topics broadly related to politicians, which they clearly are. That would make DHeyward's edits unambiguously violations of the topic ban.

The only remaining questions in my mind are whether he reasonably relied on Sandstein's interpretation of the ban to be significantly narrower than its bare wording (you accept that he did, if I understand you correctly, and I think I agree, though his subsequent poking at the limits of his subsequent ban should perhaps give us pause for thought) and then whether that reliance is sufficient to overturn the sanction, on which I don't have an opinion. GoldenRing (talk) 09:34, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Alanscottwalker

Brad, As you know, I endorsed the AE in the AN appeal, and I still do because, it's well within reasonable discretion to find the topics related. We are called upon to review the consensus discretion of other people, not Sandstein, and those people are endowed with their own reasoned discretion, so I again say, endorse. --`Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:16, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

@KrakatoaKatie: Welcome and good luck. I don't get your suggestion that you need a definition of politician -- it's ordinary English, right? - and really, if you accept you need such definition, every sanction will read like a phone book -- and I extend the observation of ordinary English to 'topics related to'. Whatever, theoretical cases may arise (or otherstuff that arose): this former congressmen/political commentator and this political activist/who prominently interacted with presidential candidates and city political leaders, fall within reasonable construction of these ordinary English phrases. (As an aside, Erica Gardner was created on the 29th, so no one was going to edit it till then and the editing occurred in December) -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:35, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by MrX

I feel bad for DHeyward because he keeps finding himself in situations where he is sanctioned, re-sanctioned and reported for violations of the re-sanctions. On the other hand, I don't think that Arbcom should second guess AE admins unless there is strong evidence that they have failed to comply with WP:AC/DS or established project norms. I concur with TonyBallioni's very patient and detailed explanation. Sandstein's statement about procedure is also on point, while I also acknowledge and respect that many Wikipedians see things much differently. Newyorkbrad's somewhat wordy ;) analysis shows that he understands the circumstances well.

The question is: should Arbcom members vote to lift sanctions that they personal would not have imposed if they were admining at AE? Think about that carefully. There is very real risk of establishing a precedent that is going to make you jobs very, very busy and potentially generate a lot of future drama.- MrX 17:29, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

DGG, with all due respect, AE is the about only thing preventing this place from blowing up. Reform would be beneficial, but eliminating it would be a huge step backwards.- MrX 18:22, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Editing of Biographies of Living Persons: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Recuse GoldenRing (talk) 09:35, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Editing of Biographies of Living Persons: Arbitrator views and discussion

• Awaiting further statements, and will review tomorrow. Note that we'll look at the related AE and AN threads in reviewing this, so that while anyone may comment here, it's not necessary to repeat every point that's already been made there. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:58, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
  • I've been reviewing this and the other new AE-related thread today, interspersed with some offline activities, and had reached a tentative conclusion subject to double-checking some things and finalizing my review. I'll be finishing up and posting tonight (Eastern US time). In the meantime, I see that DHeyward has posted a retirement notice, which I am sure is not an outcome that anyone was hoping for. Since many retirements are non-permanent and the appeal hasn't been withdrawn, I'll be concluding my review regardless of it; the retirement announcement will not affect my analysis or conclusions. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:34, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
  • I was planning to post on this tonight, but my comments on the previous ARCA request took me much longer than I'd anticipated, so it'll have to be tomorrow. My apologies. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:59, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
  • My thoughts:

First, the appeal is procedurally proper. The policy provides for it, and the right to appeal an AE outcome to ArbCom is an important safety valve, even though we respect the AE admins' judgment in most cases, and grant appeals only rarely.

On December 2, DHeyward was topic-banned for one month from articles about living and recently deceased American politicians, and related topics, broadly construed. On December 9, addressing another complaint against DHeyward, one of our most experienced AE administrators observed that the specific topic-ban encompasses only politician-related articles, not politician-related edits and that edits where the article as a whole is not related to any specific politician were not prohibited. DHeyward says he relied on this construction in interpreting the topic-ban for the rest of the month, and I believe that.

There were no further complaints about DHeyward's compliance until a January 4 AE filing about edits to Erica Garner; during the thread, another editor cited edits to Joe Scarborough. (Some other edits were cited, but those were the main focus.) The outcome was a one-month extension of a broader "American politics" topic ban.

DHeyward argues that he believed that his edits were permissible. He emphasizes, repetitiously but plausibly, that he would not knowingly have violated the topic-ban so close to its expiration. He also points out that the sanction as imposed was ambiguous. (Clarity in sanctioning is good, but no rule can ever be totally unambiguous even in theory, see here, so common sense must be used.)

The question in the new AE thread was whether DHeyward's edits were to articles about living and recently deceased American politicians, and related topics, broadly construed. This raised sub-issues, including: (1) whether the topic-ban included talk pages (I'm surprised that could still be unclear at this late date); (2) whether Erica Garner was a "politician" (debatable, but understandable to think not); (3) whether Joe Scarborough is a "politician" (he isn't today, though he used to be, but perhaps his is a "related article, broadly construed"); (4) whether removing a reference to a Donald Trump tweet referencing a blatantly false accusation against Scarborough constituted BLP enforcement (another instance of the Allegations Problem, which is one of the most difficult areas of BLP line-drawing, as I've discussed here).

If I had been one of the administrators who worked on this AE thread, I would have found that while he sometimes came close to the line, DHeyward appeared to have a good-faith, rational belief that he had stayed onside each time. I would have opined against sanctioning him, though I would also have observed—and I observe here—that the best way to avoid having to discern the parameters of a topic-ban from the inside is to avoid being topic-banned in the first place.

The AE admins' consensus was that violations took place, with a one-month reset as the remedy. DHeyward appealed to AN, where by my count 15 editors endorsed the sanction and 11 opposed it. The AN discussion was not the very model of a modern noticeboard debate, though in fairness so few of them are. I note in passing that it might have been better if someone else had closed the AN thread (though the "no consensus" outcome was likely inevitable), and I note with strong disapproval how many people's opinions lined up along predictable partisan lines.

That brings us here. I think DHeyward probably believed, more reasonably in some instances than in others but not beyond the bounds of AGF, that his edits were compliant. DHeyward might be well-advised to refine his editing style if (as I hope) he soon returns to editing, but I would not have voted to extend this topic-ban.

But the question here is not just whether I personally disagree with the AE decision, but whether ArbCom should go so far as to overturn it. Before I reach that question, I'd welcome others' opinions on the views I've expressed so far. Thank you. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:56, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

• Recuse from this specific topic ban/clarification request, although not from future discussions on BLP sanctions in general. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:52, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
• Recuse from this specific request as with PMC above. I do want to comment broadly though on the topic of appeals to ARCA. Appealing to AN/AE and then ARCA is perfectly fine. In fact, it's what we'd expect. ARCA is the final venue of appeal, and it's typical to appeal at AE/AN before ARCA. See, for instance, arb comments at the Pseudoscience appeal above. Ignoring the specifics of this appeal, I am completely unconvinced by the arguments of forum-shopping. ~ Rob₁₃ 05:39, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
  • @Kingsindian: My comment was more in reply to Fyddlestix. I'm recused on this specific appeal, so I'll let other arbs comment on how they plan to proceed. ~ Rob₁₃ 07:45, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
• I agree that the appeal is proper. If we're going to have steps in an appeal process, and if those steps are outlined, then an editor has the right to avail him/herself of each of those steps. I'm a newbie here, but I can at least piece together that much.

We could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble if the initial sanction had been clear. Setting aside for just a moment DHeyward's claims of removing BLP violations, the BLP policy defines living or recently deceased persons as within its remit. If this had been a simple BLP sanction about living or recently deceased persons, or even an AP2 sanction, DHeyward's edits would have been violations. That was not the sanction, though – the sanction was topic-banned for one month from articles about living and recently deceased American politicians, and related topics, broadly construed.

So, who is and isn't an American politician? Does 'politician' include everyone who has ever held elective office at any level, no matter how long ago or for how long? Does it include everyone who ever campaigned for elective office? Does it include everyone who ever made a speech on a political topic? Does it include activists? Does it include people who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and wrote a book about their experience? Does it include former military who have written books? The sanction is unworkable without that definition, in my view, even with the broadly construed clause.

When Sandstein declined the AE thread over edits to Kris Paronto, DHeyward says he used the guidance given there, about articles vs. edits, to frame his editing for the duration of the sanction. I see nothing that leads me to conclude that this is not true. I'm very puzzled why the sanction was not removed or at least clarified at this point, but it wasn't, so there you go.

Sanction expires, DHeyward edits Erica Garner – adding a section to the talk page, and proposing a merger to Death of Eric Garner – and an AE thread is started about it requesting a sanction under WP:NEWBLPBAN, not under the topic ban or even under AP2. (January 4 is unquestionably more than a month after December 2, and I have to wonder if NEWBLPBAN wasn't used as an excuse here.) That discussion veers off into AP2 territory quickly, with DHeyward's removal of a section of Joe Scarborough just before the sanction expired taking center stage. DHeyward is adamant that a) this is a BANEX in that he was removing a BLP violation, and b) Scarborough is not an American politician. He also says he would not have violated the sanction so close to its expiration date.

DHeyward has strong views on BLP enforcement, and again, I have no reason to question his motives or his statements here. Could he have behaved better at the AE thread? Absolutely. Is his style abrasive to some? Undoubtedly. He should really think about how he approaches editing in these areas if and when he returns, but I think he reasonably believed he was within the bounds of his editing restriction with the Scarborough/Montell/BLM edits. The topic ban is reset, however, this time explicitly under AP2. DHeyward appeals to AN, where there's no consensus to overturn it. As a participant in the AE threads, Sandstein should probably have let someone else close the AN thread, but he didn't, so there you go again.

And here we are. How do I put all that together for myself? Like Brad, I would not have come down on the side of resetting this restriction. Andrew Davidson's rationale for the AE thread was shrill at best and over-the-top hyper-partisanship at worst. Whether we should overturn it is another matter, and I want to hear other opinions first as well. Katie 17:03, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

• As for procedure, i think that: an appeal to arb com is proper. So is the admin removing the sanction themselves. So would be community consensus here or at ANB. The basic rule for procedure is NOT BURO. As for the merits: my first choice is removing the sanction without conditions. Future problems can be dealt with as they occur, preferably without using AE. I also will not oppose any other proposal for removing it, even if it adds a restriction I think unnecessary.

More generally, if we can get into such a convoluted discussion about an AE sanction, it's time to replace AE. The attempt to have a AE as a procedure that would stick has ended up in a total mess of glue. I've earlier said the only reason I would support continuing AE is my inability to think of a satisfactory replacement, but at this point, the first step is to see if we need it at all. DGG ( talk ) 18:14, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

@DGG: Was this comment meant for this thread, or for the MONGO thread above? (Or both?) Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:20, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

I've adjusted it, so it applies to both. DGG ( talk ) 18:44, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

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