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:Your first assertion is challenged by the fact that this seems to be a repeated and controversial issue ''among Canadians'' maintaining this page. On what authority, exactly, can you dictate ]? I happen to be a Canadian who finds it familiar. <span style="background:#000000;">] ]</span> 00:32, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
:Your first assertion is challenged by the fact that this seems to be a repeated and controversial issue ''among Canadians'' maintaining this page. On what authority, exactly, can you dictate ]? I happen to be a Canadian who finds it familiar. <span style="background:#000000;">] ]</span> 00:32, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
:As stated above I belive no file is best.......but do agree the US NAVY version is simply way off the mark.....almost any other file we have is better.--] (]) 00:45, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
:As stated above I belive no file is best.......but do agree the US NAVY version is simply way off the mark.....almost any other file we have is better.--] (]) 00:45, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
:: Your first response is challenged by the assumption that it's ''Canadians'' who want that incorrect audio file to be included. On what authority, exactly, can you determine that all those who complain here are Canadians? That you {{sic|finds}} it familiar is because you are likely not musical.
:: Also, what you {{sic|belive}} is immaterial. That the melody ''may be'' familiar to you does not mean that it is correct any more that a jazz arrangement of a song may be familiar but not correct. We are not debating the artistic merits of the song but its accurate representation of the song. ] (]) 01:36, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
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Please change the current file of the Canadian anthem ("Fr-Ô_Canada.ogg") to ("United_States_Navy_Band_-_O_Canada.ogg"). It's because the old audio is in very poor quality" CrAzY eDiToR (talk) 18:03, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Not done The US Navy version does not have the commonly used chords or harmonization. While the melody is correct, the rest is not an accurate representation of the anthem. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:10, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Whatever your problem is with Fr-Ô_Canada.ogg, in what possible way could United_States_Navy_Band_-_O_Canada.ogg be better? Bearcat (talk) 04:24, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
rfc: Remove "representative democracy" from infobox government classification
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I propose we use the terms in the infobox I included, because the term "democracy" is too subjective, especially in the context of modern rhetoric where "Democracy" is held to be the greatest ideal. I think using "democracy" causes bias where a supposedly neutral encyclopedia article is effectively calling a certain country a "good" country, which in that case you might as well officially define the United States as a free country in its article, or using opinionated terms like "evil" in Nazi Germany's article. My point is, Misplaced Pages should be neutral, and even if you agree that Canada is a democracy, or the US is a free country, or Nazi Germany was evil, which many people including me do, it is not up to Misplaced Pages, which its only role is to provide objective facts.
I also want to note that pretty much all of what would be seen as free democratic constitutional monarchies also don't use "representative democracy" in its infobox including United Kingdom, Spain, Belgium, Norway, Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, or Luxembourg. Neither do other commonwealth countries with Elizabeth II as its head of state such as New Zealand, Jamaica, Papua New Guinea, Belize, The Bahamas and others. Australia also uses "democracy" but I'm willing to bet its the same person who added it to Canada. I'm told its irrelevant what other articles do, but I think a hint of consistency is also good sometimes. - Bokmanrocks01 (talk) 01:18, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Oppose - Reasons provided in the discussion above. BTW, when a discussion can't come to a consensus, then you start an RfC. They are not created in lieu of them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:39, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Follow sources. This is not something for editors to decide based on their own opinions. If the notable majority of independent RSs call Canada a "representative democracy" then it goes in, else it doesn't. Other arguments are basically ILIKEIT. --A D Monroe III02:30, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
The problem is, how do you quantify? You would need to provide sources that clearly state it is not a representative democracy. This is from a quick Google search: (they call it Representative Government rather than representative democracy) . Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:45, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
"How to qualify quantify"? Well, you certainly don't use Google. And you don't look for some kind of odd anti-supporting sourcing, just for sources that support, like normal. There's no special "problem" here. Any and all unsourced information in the infobox gets removed, period. --A D Monroe III14:57, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
No, quantify. I understand the difference and I know what I wrote. I was aiming at addressing WP:UNDUE. You're argument is nonsense. Google is perfectly fine and it yielded good sources. Based on your logic, most of the other terms in the infobox are not supported so they can be safely removed. Also, please learn how to correctly indent. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:16, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
(Corrected my misspell above; sorry.) Google trumps reliable sources? Saying it doesn't is "nonsense"? Seriously?
Since the infobox is in the lede, per MOS:LEADCITE, it does not need refs that are repeated in the body, but it needs sources, as any part of WP. So, yes, anything without sources can be deleted, infobox or not.
(BTW, this is a normal threaded discussion about a bullet point, not more points on the list. Please don't modify others' comments.) --A D Monroe III16:02, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Remove. TFD is right about this. While it's certainly true that Canada is a representative democracy, it's not a characteristic that requires singling out as if it set Canada apart from other democracies — there's no such thing in today's world as a non-representative democracy, so being "representative" is not a thing that makes Canadian democracy different from American or British or German or New Zealand or Australian or South African or French or Belgian democracies. Certainly there are aspects of democratic governance that do differ from one country to another — but "representative" is not one of them. And at any rate, editors not removing content immediately does not automatically equal consensus to keep it — sometimes it just equals "nobody actually noticed it until the discussion was raised". Bearcat (talk) 22:02, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Only "federal" and "representative" are sourced in the article (see "Federalism and Representation in the Theory of the Founding Fathers: A Comparative Study of US and Canadian Constitutional Thought"). The rest, "parliamentary", "democracy" and "constitutional monarchy" are all gone. That was easy. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:16, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
"Followup edits without removal" don't in and of themselves demonstrate that those people noticed that it was there. I've made edits to one part of an article, such as correcting a mistyped link, lots of times without necessarily always noticing if there were problems with other parts of the article that I hadn't examined in depth. Bearcat (talk) 18:51, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
Remove (summoned by bot) - Looks like a storm in a teacup. "Parliamentary" already implies representative democracy. Why belabour the point? In terms of style, "Federal parliamentary democracy under a constitutional monarchy" sounds like the right wording. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:04, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Canada's territory is objectively located in the northern half of the North American continent
Let's be real here, folks. Geographic accuracy and truth is what we strive for on Misplaced Pages. And now I'm shooting for consensus too because that's what Misplaced Pages is all about. That's the reason why I put this on the talk page. InterestingCircle (talk) 21:54, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
What's geographically accurate and true about North America is that it includes Mexico, Belize, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama and the Caribbean Islands. Which is why Canada is described in this article as "northern part" rather than "northern half" — if you draw a line from Ellesmere Island to Panama, Canada does not span half of that line. It would be half of North America if you defined North America as ending at the Rio Grande, sure, but North America does not end at the Rio Grande. Bearcat (talk) 22:03, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Then it would be entirely unnecessary to insist on the word "half" over the word "part" at all. There's not enough difference in meaning between the two words for it to be worth raising a dispute over "part", if "North America ends at the Rio Grande" wasn't the intended implication — the only possible semantic reason to insist on "half" over "part" is if you're trying to hammer on the literal implication of exact fifty-fifty halfness. There's no reason to take issue with "part" otherwise, because if you take away the implication of precision carried by "half" then there's no actual difference in meaning left at all. Bearcat (talk) 22:23, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
@InterestingCircle: Consensus has not changed since the last time you raised this issue. You can continue to be the only one who holds this opinion, but it has not changed my understanding of the geography of North America, nor where Canada lies in relation to it. And for the record, Canad is not objectively in the norther half of North America. There are parts of it that are below the half-way mark of North America. Of course, it depends how one determines the bounds of North America, but that's another discussion altogether. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:17, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
"Half" is unhelpful. More significantly, it's unsourced. There is no agreement on what exactly defines the "half" point of a continent. Suggesting this is a waste of time, at best. --A D Monroe III22:22, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
The editor who posed the question has been permanently blocked as a sockpuppet. I think it's safe to close the discussion unless a different editor supports this idea. Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:13, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
Midpoint line of North America, 44° 35′ 34″ N (calculated between those two extremes)
Most southerly point of Canadian territory (waters off Middle Island) 41°40′53″N.
Southernmost point of Canada is south of the midpoint line of North America. So stating Canada is in the north half of North America, while factually correct, is not the whole story because it's also in the southern half of North America. Canterbury Tailtalk15:44, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
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Remove current version of national anthem from infobox (as somebody already said, "Not right that only the French lyrics , especially on Misplaced Pages"). Do not replace as there is no consensually satisfactory versionReplace with the previous standing version (i.e. the midi version) (rationale for my earlier proposal: readers could click the link to the article about it (which has no less than 6 versions) if they wished to hear it.) 198.84.253.202 (talk) 23:09, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
Have no clue. The piano (i.e. midi) version at least isn't unrepresentative (though it's still not the best option in plenty of other ways). 198.84.253.202 (talk) 22:45, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.
The current sound file of the national anthem in the article's infobox is File:Fr-Ô Canada.ogg, a recording that is over a century old. It has a bitrate of 100 kilobits, which, combined with its vocals, makes the melody rather difficult to hear. The entire thing is very out of place, given that a) the vocals are also from the French version of the song rather than the English version, which would be easier to understand for most visitors to the English Misplaced Pages, and b) on the infoboxes on articles for other countries, instrumental versions of their anthems seem to be far more common.
There are some alternatives available, but usually whenever someone adds them, they get reverted on the basis that consensus has already been established. Going back through the archives of this talk page, there have indeed been discussions on the issue going back to at least 2012, but it seems to be a very weak consensus. One of the main contenders for the replacement is the higher quality File:United States Navy Band - O Canada.ogg, but this has proven somewhat controversial: see exhibits A, B, CD, among others I'm likely missing.
The other alternative is File:O Canada.ogg, a simplistic but recognizable piano version, which existed on the article for some time before it was removed a few months ago without any explanation, but no longer seems to be the de facto replacement for the US Navy version.
This seems to be a persistent issue that seems to challenge the consensus that has apparently been established so I've decided to open this up to RFC. Cryptic Canadian03:56, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
In my personal opinion, I'm seeing that the consensus was decided and continues to be enforced by a small group of 2 to 3 different editors. I observe the recurring presence of one particular editor who seems to have a particular vendetta against the US Navy recording going back to 2011, which makes me all the more skeptical that the apparent precedent isn't just a mildly welcomed opinion from half a decade ago passing as consensus.
It perplexes me that, out of all of the available renditions of a national anthem, the best version that we can come up with for a featured article on a country is one that's outdated, too poor in quality to be recognizable to the public at large, and just outright cheesy to the modern ear -- all while being held back by a half decade-long pissing contest that appears to be bogged down with the subjective opinions of a few different editors. Cryptic Canadian
The US Navy rendition, like it or not, has flourishes and filigrees that aren't actually part of the real melody but are not harmonically or instrumentally distinct enough from the main melody for anybody who isn't already familiar with the song to know which parts of it don't belong there. Thus, it is not an accurate or suitable representation, and the fact that anybody could possibly think that version should be preferred is simply mystifying, frankly. Of the three versions that have actually been proffered for discussion here, the existing one is actually the best and most appropriate choice among those options — cheesy or not, it's at least accurate, unlike the US Navy one, and the toy piano one is significantly cheesier. Would a better rendition be welcome? Yes, absolutely, if somebody can actually find and upload one. Would we love it if Michael Bublé or Charlotte Cardin or Alessia Cara recorded a new performance of it for contemporary pop cred, and gave us a high bit rate copy under a Creative Commons license? Sure, we'd die of joy. But we haven't had any better rendition than the existing one uploaded to Misplaced Pages as of yet — all we've had is people who, for no reason that they've deigned to actually explain, hate the existing version with a capital what-the-actual-fuck-is-any-sane-person's-problem, to the point that they're willing to upload worse versions to replace it with. By all means, find a better version. But there hasn't been a better version provided as of yet. Bearcat (talk) 04:03, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
With all of the people who've tried to add the US Navy one back in, it's clear that there's still not agreement on whether a bit of exaggeration is a bad thing. I would be surprised to come across an anthem at the top of an article that didn't deviate from the original to some degree. If we're going to go full Puritan, why not just put the piano version back? Cryptic Canadian04:37, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
You made your appeal against the Navy version by denying its authenticity. If we disregard every reasoning against the piano one except how it lines up with the melody of O Canada, then how is it not the best option? Cryptic Canadian05:02, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Which means you're not understanding mine, if you think that's a clever retort to it. There are two criteria that both have to be met by the recording of choice, of which the second is sounding like it was recorded by an actual professional musician. Navy band passes that criterion but fails the accuracy, piano passes accuracy but fails the professionalism, and the existing recording passes both. Not that hard. At any rate, I'd still like to see anybody provide an actual explanation of why the navy band version should be preferred — people just revert-war over it, but not one person has ever actually provided an explanation of why it was somehow better to them, or preferable to the existing one. It's always been just "replace because I wanna, bye", or "the current version is unrepresentative of Canada" with no explanation of either how that's true or how the navy band version is somehow more "representative of Canada". Bearcat (talk) 05:32, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm not trying to be "clever" about anything, but your defensiveness here is certainly speaking for itself. Your primary issue was its difference from the "official" melody. Consequently, the piano version seemed to be the closest thing to satisfy that. I would have thought for sure that professionalism stopped being a priority when we began debating the merits of using a carbon microphone recording to present a national anthem to the world in 2018. The "why" question is beyond my comprehension, because I'm not educated enough to explain to someone how our audio receptors are wired to our brains differently. But while we're on the subject, could you explain to me why people don't appreciate the sounds of a nail dragging across a chalkboard? What about it makes it less preferable to the sound of using straight chalk instead? I know we're all wiki-crats here, but good lord, we have to draw the line somewhere. What kind of reaction would you seriously expect if you presented both recordings to 100 random people who aren't part of this debate? Cryptic Canadian05:52, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
A similar situation occured on the page of the national anthem, O Canada. The most recent discussion (involving me and the above mentioned editor, and a few passing remarks from some others) ended without consensus. The situation was boldly resolved by adding the official melody in lilypond format in the article and completely removing the anthem audio from the infobox, since obviously consensus couldn't be reached about which version to have. That solution, although quite practical, cannot be applied here (the most obvious reason being that this article isn't actually about the anthem...). I've also made an objective analysis of the available recordings in that discussion () - in the process, making comments about harmonizations and familiarity - comments which I'm not really keen to repeat since I think there's a chance they might fall on deaf ears. But just for the sake of it, flourishes (which are actually mostly in the bass line or in the harmony - you'd need to have really no musical ear no to distinguish the lower voices from the melody) are perfectly acceptable. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 04:41, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
After reading that, I'm convinced that this editor is walking a fine line between WP:OWNBEHAVIOR and WP:BATTLE. I have a hard time believing that something like this can persist for years in the name of making these articles useful. Cryptic Canadian05:14, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
You obviously haven't listened to the US Navy rendition if you think "lower voices" or bass lines have anything to do with it. In several places, the same instruments just keep waltzing past the end of melody line, with no bass line or harmony voices or lower voices, or any other form of differentiation whatsoever, present to mark it as anything distinct from the real melody — the same instruments just keep going into fantasyland for a bar or two before coming back to where they're supposed to be. Nobody who didn't already know what they were supposed to be hearing would have any way to know they'd been taken on a joyride, because there's no hint whatsoever of the harmonic or instrumental distinctions that you describe. What you're describing is one thing, but what the US Navy band does in that rendition is an entirely different thing that bears no relation whatsoever to your thing. Bearcat (talk) 04:49, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
That's called suspension - it's the lower voices (or more properly, the resolution of harmonic cadences which is delayed at the end of phrases), not the melody - see the middle section of this piece by Bach for an example of "suspension" - (see wikitext ). 198.84.253.202 (talk) 04:55, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
That's not even what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about notes being "suspended" or "delayed", or notes being played in "lower voices" — I'm talking about several places where the main voice melody line simply inserts several extra new, unsuspended, undelayed and unlowered notes that aren't supposed to be there at all, and aren't resolving any cadences that weren't already resolved. I may not have a Ph.D. in music, but I do know more than you seem to think I do. Bearcat (talk) 05:16, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
The navy version has the correct melody - there are, as I said, occasional flourishes (for example, at the end of the 7th phrase (first occurrence of "O Canada, we stand on guard for thee"), where there is clearly a non-melodic scale passage in the lower voices). Concerning your comment above "There are two criteria that both have to be met by the recording of choice, of which the second is sounding like it was recorded by an actual professional musician." - the current french version in the article is not accurate since it's, well, only french (and has the 4th verse which is never sung), and the sound quality is worse. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 12:21, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
No file........as stated before we have a page for this. Sound file does not help readers understand Canada.--Moxy (talk) 12:49, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
As stated more than once, the United States Navy Band version uses a chord structure that is not familiar to Canadians and is therefore wrong. This is what Bearcat is saying. In the past it has been suggested that a RS be provided to support that, but no RS has been provided to support the case that the proposed version is a correct version and not an interpretation of it. The current bilingual version, as archaic as it may appear to some editors, sufficiently represents the anthem and being bilingual is a plus. I would sooner have those who want a change to an improved version make the effort to find one that isn't a recording of the performance of the score used by the United States Navy Band. In fact, I'd be happy to have it an all versions based on that score be deleted from Commons. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:16, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
As stated above I belive no file is best.......but do agree the US NAVY version is simply way off the mark.....almost any other file we have is better.--Moxy (talk) 00:45, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Your first response is challenged by the assumption that it's Canadians who want that incorrect audio file to be included. On what authority, exactly, can you determine that all those who complain here are Canadians? That you finds it familiar is because you are likely not musical.
Also, what you belive is immaterial. That the melody may be familiar to you does not mean that it is correct any more that a jazz arrangement of a song may be familiar but not correct. We are not debating the artistic merits of the song but its accurate representation of the song. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:36, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Not done The US Navy version does not have the commonly used chords or harmonization. While the melody is correct, the rest is not an accurate representation of the anthem. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:10, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the 
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