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Revision as of 13:43, 5 March 2018 editD4iNa4 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users3,548 edits →Statement by D4iNa4← Previous edit Revision as of 14:01, 5 March 2018 edit undoDennis Brown (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, IP block exemptions69,230 edits →Result concerning Mar4d: addNext edit →
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*I haven't read all the available information, but from what I have, {{u|MapSGV}} is a bigger problem than {{u|Mar4d}} as far as talk page behavior. The core of this is a content dispute which needs to go to ]. Probably the most effective thing an admin could do is full protect the article and force everyone to DRN, an option I won't rule out. It is either that or a handful of sanctions. I strongly suggest the interested parties simply take this to DRN now before someone else gets ham-fisted with the tools. As usual in this topic area, there are no saints. ] - ] 12:20, 5 March 2018 (UTC) *I haven't read all the available information, but from what I have, {{u|MapSGV}} is a bigger problem than {{u|Mar4d}} as far as talk page behavior. The core of this is a content dispute which needs to go to ]. Probably the most effective thing an admin could do is full protect the article and force everyone to DRN, an option I won't rule out. It is either that or a handful of sanctions. I strongly suggest the interested parties simply take this to DRN now before someone else gets ham-fisted with the tools. As usual in this topic area, there are no saints. ] - ] 12:20, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
**It still needs to go to DRN. I don't think any admin is going to pour over all the available sources to make a decision on sanctions when there isn't a clear consensus or decision on a complicated issue. If you can show that you tried to go to DRN and he refused to participate, or you had an RFC it it went against his version, then we have something to base a decision on. Otherwise, you are asking us to get involved in a content dispute. As for civility, everyone there is a bit uncivil but nothing so extreme I would take action. These are heated topics, a bit of '''''minor''''' push and shove is expected. ] - ] 14:01, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

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    Hyper9

    Hyper9 is indefinitely topic banned from all Misplaced Pages pages and discussions connected with Indian history including languages/linguistic history, and Nagadeepa is indefinitely topic banned from all Misplaced Pages pages and discussions connected with with Indian languages. Both editors are encouraged to appeal the sanction no sooner than six months from now, with evidence that they have contributed constructively in other parts of Misplaced Pages or in our sister projects in the meantime. Such appeals are likely to be viewed favorably. Bishonen | talk 19:25, 26 February 2018 (UTC).
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


    Request concerning Hyper9

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Nagadeepa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:48, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Hyper9 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan#Standard discretionary sanctions

    To ban Hyper9 from editing the Malayalam page (and other Indian history pages) where he has been propagating fringe theories not widely accepted by most scholars. Hyper9 has also been repeatedly deleting accurately referenced widely accepted views on the history of the Malayalam language. He has also been brazenly distorting the following accurate source and completely misinterpreting it to suit his fringe theories:

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/24157306.pdf?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    Finally, he has refused to engage in dispute resolution procedures on spurious grounds:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_160#Talk:Malayalam

    I note that this not a new problem and he has been banned in the past for similar disruptive behaviour.

    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. - 18:38, 12 February 2018‎ Accurate history of Malayalam language with scientific references. Hyper9 has consistently been deleting these referenced edits of mine based on the work of reputed linguists and historians which jettison the theory that Malayalam had an independent origin from Tamil.
    1. 16/2/18 14:47 This is the current version of the page where Hyper9 has ensured that a biased and fringe history of the Malayalam language is left unchallenged.

    A full argument between Hyper9 and two other editors Cpt.a.haddock and me Nagadeepa can be seen in the talk page. Anyone who reads the whole exchange and particularly the research article by S.V Shanmugam (which I have quoted from extensively in the talk section) can see that Hyper9 has been distorting this source and is being disruptive and obstructive.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Malayalam#Debates_on_the_origins_of_Malayalam_-_June_2017


    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. Hyper9 was previously banned on 7th July 2017 from all articles related to Indian history for the exact same reasons that I am submitting this request.
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.
    • Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
    • Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on (7/7/17) by SpacemanSpiff (talk · contribs). @SpacemanSpiff: @Doug Weller:
    • Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
    • Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 7/7/17.
    • Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on .


    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Apologies for not attaching correct diff links earlier. I am new to wikipedia editing. I think this is what is requested as a 'diff':

    https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Malayalam&type=revision&diff=825503445&oldid=825317310 Nagadeepa (talk) 18:23, 16 February 2018 (UTC)-->

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Hyper9#Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

    — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nagadeepa (talk • contribs) 18:23, 16 February 2018 (UTC)


    Discussion concerning Hyper9

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Hyper9

    The article under dispute has a problematic regional history to it. It is therefore understandable that it can be controversial - but that is true for a lot of other topics as well. I have searched for sources for these pages and all of the content that I have added are from reputed and estabilshed sources. I have also addressed this filing editor properly, despite his abuses, incivility (I have already been called - 'dishonest', 'charlatan', 'madman' on WP by this editor) and a series of incoherent arguments on the Talk:Malayalam page. Yet, no action has been taken against this editor.

    Not only this, this other editor was never interested in a discussion, but after one response from me, went ahead and opened a DRN on 10th Feb. The response after which this editor raised the DRN can be viewed here - and only highlights their unwillingness for discussion - https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Malayalam&diff=prev&oldid=824718203 (Only the bottom part where I have signed off is my contribution)

    This editor, who has filed this complaint, has been resorting to all sorts of tactics to get the version of the page that he wants without any discussion on the Talk:Malayalam page. The first action that he did is to file a DRN even before we had any serious discussion. I would like to point out I have made exactly 5 responses to this editor, which can be viewed here - 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Malayalam&diff=824981462&oldid=824944902 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Malayalam&diff=825312813&oldid=824983593 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Malayalam&diff=825504100&oldid=825366118 4. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Malayalam&diff=825548041&oldid=825531524 5. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Malayalam&diff=825954678&oldid=825879648

    I have been extremely polite and restrained in my responses in this stint - and if there is something that the WP administrators would point out as inadmissible in my replies above, I would be surprised. In my previous experience, the Appeal procedure to a ban request on me did not even allow me to respond to accusations. In this instance, I do hope that my case would be considered more carefully by the Admins. I have contributed significantly to improving these pages as any editor who will examine these pages can tell and much of the sources that I had added in my previous Enforcement case have not been removed - even after the disputing editor cross-checked them. Thanks. Hyper9 (talk) 21:55, 17 February 2018 (UTC)


    User:EdJohnston, User:Dennis_Brown, User:Sandstein, User:RegentsPark - It would have been fair if you could have at least waited for me to provide a First response before arriving at conclusions. Also, to base the present dispute on any previous dispute is to fail to see what is going on now. I am eager to be shown anything that amounts to a transgression in any of my edits and I have been extremely patient in dealing with this filing editor. This filing editor begins their edits on February 8th, 2018 and by February 9th-10th - they file DRN cases thinking that it is some form of 3rd party judgement. This clearly indicates that they were never interested in resolving the dispute through discussion. They have in fact, been trying to use such blocking mechanisms from the beginning - knowing that they can harp about how I was banned previously (which is a whole different story on a different page Chera_dynasty). The discussion on this page had been in fact settled by me and the other disputing editor with a consensus DRN version and can be viewed here - https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Malayalam&diff=prev&oldid=787916353
    In the lede on this page Malayalam, the portion on origins has been made neutral to show the existence of Two views after all this effort by me. There is no need for me to sit and take all these attacks by these other editors if there wasn't any substance to it. All these editors including the previous ones have been trying to push the first view in that origin portion all this while. In fact, before I edited this page, all these disputing editors sat on this page without allowing for the second view to be expressed at all. It is in attempting to neutralise this bias that I have had to do research and add good sources and have been the subject to all these attacks. I dare say that it would be patently unfair as responsible WP Admins if you do not look at my responses more carefully and the nature of the disruptive behaviour and personal attacks by this other editor. If you can then genuinely provide any conclusive examples or reasons why such a drastic action such as a ban on me is warranted, I would accept it willingly. Hyper9 (talk) 09:26, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
    Second Statement by Hyper9

    I am surprised to know now that it was this same editor who tried to edit Talk:Malayalam using an anonymous IP earlier. There was no attempt by this editor to clarify that it was them earlier, which is obviously some form of deception. User:Francis_Schonken: As I have mentioned somewhere in the talk pages, I am perfectly willing to take part in any process for dispute resolution. I have done so successfully in the past and I have shown that I can maintain decorum.

    In my defence, I did not know that the 1st DRN case would be closed down because I requested an apology (which this other editor has still not been decent enough to provide). I was under the impression that there would be an apology (as I have done in the past) and we would carry on into the main discussion. Despite this having happened, in the 2nd DRN case, this editor opens a case using words such as "madman" in their opening statement. Obviously, this editor is not interested in having a discussion purely on content as a DRN case ought to be. I must point out that it would be ridiculous if the one editor can launch personal attacks in every alternate sentence in a moderated discussion - and the other editor has to focus on content only. If anything, I have been patient with this immaturity and not responded similarly, but have only asked for such statements to be deleted or an apology given. Hyper9 (talk) 10:13, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

    User:Francis_Schonken - For whatever its worth, in answer to your question - I dont have any problem in participating in a content-only discussion. I have done so once in the past and arrived at a consensus with the disputing editor. Hyper9 (talk) 18:10, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

    The filing editor resurrected their old ID solely for the purpose of disruptive editing and filing a slew of disputes and cases against me. And they still have not shown any sense of basic civility or change in their behaviour. Despite discussing in a wholly reformed manner and being patient with this highly disruptive and uncivil editor, I see that a greater sanction is being called against me with barely any supporting evidence for this. In a sense, I am not surprised by this irrational position by the Admin User:SpacemanSpiff. I have pointed out the biased behaviour of this Admin in the past as well (in July 2017). I am sure that they are a great Admin in other areas but as far as these topics are concerned, unfortunately I have not seen anything but biased and illogical interventions. However, there is probably very little that a contributor can do in this regard and once the Admins conclude the discussions, I am sure I can adhere by whatever decision is reached. Hyper9 (talk) 01:36, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Robert McClenon

    This is not "just a content dispute". It is a content dispute that is compounded by conduct issues. See https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Malayalam . As you can see, there has been incivility on both sides. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:26, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

    Well, I see that User:Nagadeepa is ranting at great length. My original comment had been that there was incivility by both editors, and Nagadeepa seems to be proving that sometimes the Original Poster gets hit by the boomerang. In other words, I concur with the pending result of topic-banning both parties. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:09, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Nagadeepa

    It is very clear from my extensive comments on the Talk:Malayalam page that I have exhausted all avenues of discussion with Hyper9 (whether moderated or non-moderated) and his claim that I want to edit the page without discussion is an outright falsehood.Nagadeepa (talk) 18:45, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

    "While we are at it, it is necessary to look at the conduct of Nagadeepa, who has been frequently repeating himself by copy pasting same messages, typing in caps."

    This message by D4iNa4 has angered me. The only reason why I repeated that message in caps is because Hyper9 had repeatedly ignored it and refused to address it. Hyper9 himself requested me to highlight the quotations from the said scholars to differentiate them from my own words. In fact, this quote alone from the paper by S.V Shanmugam exposes Hyper9 whole argument and shows he has manipulated the paper. He did not directly address any of my critical questions and would instead go on a tangent with his responses. Debate with him was impossible hence why 3rd party mediation was crucial.Nagadeepa (talk) 20:06, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

    I note that D4iNa4 has been tagged as a suspected sockpuppet. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Yogesh_Khandke/Archive Nagadeepa (talk) 20:12, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

    Just to clarify IP address 80.229.155.49 in the talk page is also me. I have been engaged in discussion with Hyper9 for a much longer time than has been implied.Nagadeepa (talk) 21:32, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

    Nice try MagSGV. That is not sock puppetry by any stretch of the mind. I only searched for my log in details when I needed to open the DRN. There was a gap of many days between my eventual log in. Nagadeepa (talk) 06:57, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

    Francis Schonken I accept that my behaviour has not been perfect, and I should have restrained myself from referring to Hyper9's character. I was infuriated by his stone walling and his brazen distortion of S.V Shanmugam's source.

    Regarding the assertion that Tamilakam refers merely to a political structure, I dispute that strongly. Both S.V Shanmugam and Prof. Sreedhara Menon (Kerala's foremost historian) refer to it as a linguistic/cultural region. For most of its existence it was divided into three warring states all of which spoke Tamil.

    The internal evidence from the ancient literature also supports this.Nagadeepa (talk) 08:10, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

    MapSGV well that was clearly was not my intention. It was a case of me not bothering to dig out my long forgotten log in details with my initial discussion. You can believe what you want. But that was not my motivation at allNagadeepa (talk) 08:13, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

    Francis yes I would be open to take part in a 3rd party mediated discussion.

    "Hyper9 seems to correctly indicate that some of the scholars quoted by Nagadeepa rather speak about political and other historical splits".

    Could you please direct me to which scholar I quote says this. S.V Shanmugam, my main source clearly states that ancient Tamil Nadu and Kerala (Tamilakam) was a Tamil linguistic region i.e. region where the Tamil language was spoken. There is no consciousness in the ancient literature of any other language being spoken substantially.Nagadeepa (talk) 10:10, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

    Francis I will be willing to take part in a 3rd party meditated discussion and will refrain from making any offensive comments to the other editor.Nagadeepa (talk) 13:29, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

    Francis one of my main concerns regarding any 3rd party mediated process, is that will the 3rd parties actually read the source material under scrutiny? There has been blatant untruths said about one reliable source which anyone can see if they can actually read the research paper. If this does not happen then it will degenerate into a "his word against mine" argument which will go no where. Nagadeepa (talk) 17:21, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

    @Francis Schonken: Is there a way to combine both 'Language and linguistics' with 'History and geography'? This dispute is easily resolved when these two disciplines are looked at together and not in isolation. The linguistic evidence coupled with the historical evidence (garnered from the ancient literature and inscriptions of Kerala which are all in Old Tamil) leaves no doubt that Hyper9's position is a fringe theory. The fringe academic that Hyper9 depends on (Govindakutty) is completely silent on the historical record for example.Nagadeepa (talk) 19:44, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

    'posting unexplained poetry' @Bishonen: the poetry is self explanatory to anyone who has basic specialised knowledge of the topic (which Hyper9 has). It's an ancient poem from an Old Tamil anthology Pathitrupathu which was composed in Kerala during the early centuries of the Christian era (1st-2nd century AD). It proves that the people from Kerala regarded themselves as being part of Tamilakam, the common Tamil linguistic cultural region.Nagadeepa (talk) 11:35, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

    "their jumping from an IP to their account on the talkpage without acknowledgement was beyond nonchalant (if not outright deceptive)".

    I did not realise it was such a big sin. The whole premise of the talk page in my estimation was based on the merits of the arguments/evidence, not on who says it. I did not think it was huge deal whether I wrote it under my old handle which I had to dig up from obscurity (so i could request the 3rd party meditation) or written under my IP. To call it deception is extreme. To have such an innocent mistake used against me is unfair.Nagadeepa (talk) 13:46, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

    Well now the gloves are off, and I'm expecting the inevitable ban, I'm not going to bite my lips. Everything I said about Hyper9's personal character I genuinely believe. Was it uncivil for me to say it out in a public forum? Yes and I should have restrained myself. However, I know I will be vindicated in the future when Hyper9 comes up again in yet another dispute mechanism with yet another editor. As for me I am not going to waste any time with editing Misplaced Pages anymore and I would prefer if you would give me a permanent ban from all topics (disable my account please). If I could delete my complete account including all online evidence of it that would be preferable. Thanks.Nagadeepa (talk) 19:21, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by D4iNa4

    While we are at it, it is necessary to look at the conduct of Nagadeepa, who has been frequently repeating himself by copy pasting same messages, typing in caps. Such disruption only creates hostility. D4iNa4 (talk) 17:23, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

    "I am afraid talking to you does feel like I'm talking to a mad man." Clear violation of WP:NPA. D4iNa4 (talk) 17:29, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

    @Nagadeepa: if my above message really "angered" you so much then I am sure you can't deal with content dispute. You believe that because next one is not agreeing with you that means they are not reading your messages and you can copy paste same messages until next one stops.

    Your failure to address your bludgeoning, personal attacks, is visible. Talking about a 4 years old block of mine is not going to legitimize your ongoing disruption. Your IP edits seem to be violating WP:NOTFORUM.

    Nagadeepa has CIR issues and since he came with unclean hands, he needs to be sanctioned as well. Or otherwise close the report as content dispute (per Sandstein) and urge the users to try an RfC. D4iNa4 (talk) 15:04, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

    Nagadeepa could have apologized but this recent comment further confirms that he is going to personalize these incidents and refuse to accept any mistakes. D4iNa4 (talk) 14:28, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by MagSGV

    @Nagadeepa: did you confessed your sock puppetry with IP on talk page? I wouldn't be surprised if Hyper9 was not aware of it. MapSGV (talk) 02:21, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

    Nagadeepa can you just answer my question? Yes that is sock puppetry. Trying to show up that different people are saying same thing when there is one person using the IP and account. — MapSGV (talk) 07:39, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
    Bishonen, still Nagadeepa had to confess on talk page that he is behind the IP and he had enough time for that. This issue is not that one sided like you are thinking. Nagadeepa has engaged in disruptive editing. MapSGV (talk) 12:06, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Francis

    @Nagadeepa: it seems important you realise that your behaviour has been all but exemplary, e.g. at the DRN, as already mentioned by Robert McClenon: "there has been incivility on both sides" (emphasis added). Yours was at least as much a cause to sinking the DRN as Hyper9's (I even thought yours slightly more offensive). You've edited en.Misplaced Pages for over ten years now, although apparently not always using the Nagadeepa account. Like for Hyper9 it is a pity you apparently rather stayed away than edit outside your area of interest (an apparently very narrow area of interest). Your latest additions to this AE show little or no improvement regarding the tone of your comments, so I suppose at least a symbolical but firm warning to change your ways would be in place. If needs be in the form of an AE sanction.

    Re. "... who's right about the content ..." (mentioned by one of the admins below): scholars disagree, classical story, and opponents try to get their preferred scholars in line for being designated as the "mainstream" in the article, thus discussions devolve in a classical fight, and since neither gets the upper hand on content, in a series of insults. From the more interesting content arguments:

    • Nagadeepa remarks that the scholars which are regarded mainstream by Hyper9 do in fact recognise that the other theory is mainstream.
    • Hyper9 seems to correctly indicate that some of the scholars quoted by Nagadeepa rather speak about political and other historical splits, which are not necessarily the same as the split of the language from its surmised predecessor languages (which is the topic of the dispute).

    So, if scholars don't agree, maybe mention what scholars say in their own name without attempting to distil a "mainstream" indicator for the lead section out of this lack of agreement, which might be a practical application of NPOV instead of this cesspit of a discussion. To me at least Nagadeepa and Hyper9 seem equally lacking in behavioural skills to bring this to a consensus conclusion, and it is a pity that the DRN sank (for which both seem somewhat equally responsible, although Hyper9 should probably have been the wiser one, and Nagadeepa should have been aware that being offensive usually boomerangs), so that the discussion would ultimately have centred around presenting the material in a NPOV way in mainspace instead of being ultimately about editor conduct. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:50, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

    @Nagadeepa: would you be prepared, after this AE closes (whatever way it closes) to participate in a content dispute resolution process (RSN, official mediation, RfC, or whatever seems most advisable and gets accepted by those having a say in it) about the topic at hand without launching *any* offence to fellow editors?
    @Hyper9: same question to you of course.
    It might be possible (but it is up to admins to decide whether anything in this vein would be viable and/or desirable) to close this conditionally, say, that the first incivility by either of you would immediately result in a block of at least a week, with increasing block times when returning from block periods with new insults, etc (and/or other discretionary sanctions if any from the original ArbCom case are still in force). --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:33, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
    @Hyper9: I grouped your statements. You didn't really answer my question, at least not too clear whether you could agree with "content only" in the discussions (no transgression whatsoever outside of the content issue that needs to be addressed).
    @Nagadeepa: now you started to discuss content here, on a noticeboard that is a conduct noticeboard. I asked a question about conduct (i.e. your future conduct, whether it could adhere to certain principles), which you didn't answer. You had the opportunity to talk content exclusively, at the DRN (and it failed in part while you couldn't). Now we're at a conduct noticeboard, addressing conduct issues, and in your latest replies you seem to try to switch topic to content issues. If unclear about the difference (conduct vs. content), I must say that wouldn't promise too much regarding having future discussions either exclusively on content or exclusively on conduct: separating the two aspects is one of the methods used in Misplaced Pages to bring interminable discussions back on track. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:38, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

    Anyhow, placed an IPA-related ds alert on Nagadeepa's talk page (). Reason: Nagadeepa filed this AE request without mentioning any arbcom case (someone else filled it out for them, linking to the IPA case). Formally, this sort of meant Nagadeepa could have been unaware of the ds system. Thought it better to make this clear. In general I still think it best both editors would resume the discussion about the content (which seems interesting enough) without commenting about each others behaviour. This would be the best solution for Misplaced Pages I suppose: I'm not convinced the current version of the Malayalam article is unbiased, but I'm sure both editors can help hammer it out (if only they'd concentrate on content, not post vaguely related poetry on the article's talk page, walls of texts, boldface repeats of upper-case text, etc.) For that plan to work Hyper9 should be able to take part in discussions too, so I see less benefit in topic-banning them from anything. Nagadeepa seems wise enough not to need mediation in such content discussions: either they stop commenting on co-editors, or they incur the sanctions foreseen by the IPA ds system. Whether or not the discussion is mediated makes no difference. I'd recommend an RfC instead, which might attract other views instead of just two editors running in circles chasing each other's tails. In other words: close this AE request as content dispute, with a stern warning to both editors that IPA's ds sanctions will be applied if any of the former bad behaviour returns (which applies to both now). --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:56, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

    • @Nagadeepa: re. "will the 3rd parties actually read the source material under scrutiny" – at DRN not, afaik. Afaik the same is true for formal mediation. RfC, e.g. when inscribed in the "History and geography" and "Language and linguistics" sets, has a higher potential of attracting people somewhat knowledgeable in the topic area, and interested in reading available sources. It would also be possible to take the source material to WP:RSN, but that is rather for sorting out limited sets of article content (half a paragraph or so) + underlying sources (less than a handful mostly), but this noticeboard is less suitable for the balance in an article as a whole. Other possibility: WP:NPOVN, rather for the over-all balance, but less focus on detailed assessment of actual sources. Or WP:FTN, but that is only if wanting to brandish one of the alternative theories as "fringe" (might give more discussion than it resolves). So all in all, RfC seems best imho. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:44, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Hyper9

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    Though the complaint here is less than perfectly organized, Hyper9's original arguments against his ban don't persuade. To see more background, read the editor's talk page starting at User talk:Hyper9#Discretionary sanctions alert, which was in June 2017. I'm leaving pings for User:MelanieN, User:RegentsPark and User:Doug Weller since they participated in earlier discussions. Note that, when banned from Indian history, Hyper9 stopped editing the encyclopedia for precisely six months and then resumed where he left off, arguing about the same articles. This somewhat works around the rationale for timed bans, which are intended to let the editor contribute in other areas while avoiding the trouble spot. Hyper9's interactions with administrators were very indignant and they suggest two possibilities: either (a) the admins had no idea what they were doing, or (b) Hyper9 was really off the rails but refused to reflect on the problems they were causing. I suspect that (b) is more likely to be correct. EdJohnston (talk) 04:30, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
    • A cursory view of the available discussions gives me the impression that an indefinite topic ban might be in order. I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise, but I'm seeing a strong case of WP:IDHT and an unwillingness to discuss in good faith, at DRN or the talk page. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:15, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
    • I don't see how this is actionable. The supposed diffs being reported aren't diffs. And the explanation given for the report doesn't make clear how this is not just a content dispute. Sandstein 17:17, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
    • I concur with the topic ban. Though the discussion on the talk page is rather confusing, Hyper9 is clearly obfuscating and not assuming good faith. Given that they've had similar issues in the past, an indef topic ban is warranted.--regentspark (comment) 14:18, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
    • I'm on the fence, and would like some more information about recent editing. As EdJohnston says, Hyper9's six-month break after he got a six-month topic ban is a striking circumstance. I don't want to make too much of it, though, as "any edits or pages pertaining to Indian history" was a pretty wide topic ban. If Indian history is the user's area of interest, they can't be blamed too much for simply waiting out the ban. Especially as I didn't see anybody telling them at the time that they needed to edit Misplaced Pages during the topic ban in order to improve their 'Misplaced Pages CV'. (I may have missed it.) The break is unfortunate, though — editing other areas would have been a learning experience re how to edit Misplaced Pages and how to fit into a collaborative community. However, Ed, while I too was pretty appalled by Hyper9's complaints against his ban, on his page and in his appeal here, that was in June 2017. I'd agree he was "off the rails" then. But after his return in January he has clearly made an effort to discuss civilly. Dennis Brown, are you looking mainly at the linked June discussions, or at anything recent? And, most importantly for me to form an opinion about a possible re-ban: RegentsPark, could you explain more fully about obfuscation in the January-February discussion on Talk:Malayalam? It's somewhat over my head. P.S., Dennis, unfortunately SpacemanSpiff hasn't edited since 1 February. It would be a big help if he was here. Bishonen | talk 13:26, 19 February 2018 (UTC).
    His blowing off the DRN really rubbed me the wrong way. You might could argue that it was too early, but it was accepted and he should have accepted a 3rd party mediating. Not all of his recent stuff is bad (I'm on the fence as well) but I'm not convinced he is here to work with others, after just sampling some of his edits. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:49, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
    Bishonen, the discussion is confusing because I can't figure out who's right about the content (but then, I rarely can!). My main concern was with the way Hyper9 handled the discussion. We have a newish editor who is bringing sources to the table but getting no traction. They then tried a DR but Hyper9 shot that down leave one very frustrated new editor. There appear to be some ownership issues as well. If they're not willing to go to DR, then I don't see much choice other than banning them from, at the minimum, Malayalam related pages. --regentspark (comment) 17:00, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
    While I'm pondering. I'll just point out that Nagadeepa isn't technically a new editor, they've been editing since 2007. However, there was a break between 2010 and 25 January 2018. I suppose that kind of explains their IP editing on Talk:Malayalam from 80.229.155.49 between 22 and 25 January, which they acknowledge above; presumably they had pretty much forgotten about using the account. "I only searched for my log in details when I needed to open the DRN" is a bit cavalier — if you have an account you should either use it or abandon it, not be on and off, which is confusing for others — but calling it sockpuppetry as MagSGV does is overly harsh, and I assume no sneaky motives.
    OK. Considering that Hyper9 has made an effort to be more collaborative this time round, and may reasonably not have expected the DRN to be shut down over their demand for an apology (Hyper9 says above that he didn't), I feel another topic ban from Indian history would be overly draconian. I propose a six-month topic ban from all pages and discussions related to the Malayalam language. Better bold that so it stands out in my ramblings. For myself, I would also urge them to stop demanding apologies in any forum, as it never leads to anything good. I see they're still harping on above about how the other editor "has still not been decent enough" to provide an apology. Just move on, please. Bishonen | talk 11:52, 20 February 2018 (UTC).
    • I've been away so I haven't followed this issue when it began to unravel but now that I've had time to look at it, I think the original topic ban should be reinstated, indefinitely, with an appeal allowed in six months based on non-problematic contributions elsewhere, or else we're just going to be revisiting this issue again pretty soon (just like this time where the issues started after expiry of the prior topic ban). That said, I don't think the filer's conduct here is any better and they should also be subject to a topic ban from anything related to Indian languages. —SpacemanSpiff 04:05, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
      • Great to see you back, Space. I'm coming round to your view, they should have identical topic bans from Indian languages (not Indian history this time, right?). I.e., indefinite, appeal allowed in six months, will only be viewed favorably if they've contributed constructively in other parts of Misplaced Pages or in the sister projects. Apart from the way Nagadeepa gets personal, their jumping from an IP to their account on the talkpage without acknowledgement was beyond nonchalant (if not outright deceptive), and posting unexplained poetry there is a waste of other people's time that approaches trolling. But depending on how other admins feel, I would also be on board with merely a strong warning to both, with a request to them to read Francis Schonken's good advice carefully. Bishonen | talk 10:11, 21 February 2018 (UTC).
        • I think Indian history which includes history of Indic languages would be the right scope as the problems lie in the broader area, primarily related to the event history, not just this language article. —SpacemanSpiff 13:34, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
        • Not opposed to both, even if it just a fixed time, to remove the disruption and create an incentive for the future. Not sure a warning would be sufficient. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:35, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
          • Space, I'll certainly defer to your opinion in this, as you know the area and incidentally also the sockfarms very well. But you wrote "I don't think the filer's conduct here is any better and they should also be subject to a topic ban from anything related to Indian languages". So, are you saying Hyper9 should be indefinitely t-banned from Indian history, but Nagadeepa from Indian languages? With the appeal in 6 months etc for both? I'd be cool with that, if so, but we'd better make sure it's clear. Bishonen | talk 16:07, 21 February 2018 (UTC).
    • @Bishonen, that is my opinion, since we've seen Hyper9 be disruptive in the wider area, however, based on what I've seen currently I can only find disruption by Nagadeepa within the languages area. Therefore I'd suggest an indefinite TBan from "anything to do with Indian history including languages/linguistic history" for Hyper9 and an indefinite TBan from "anything to do with Indian languages" for Nagadeepa. Needless to say, both bans should apply across any and all namespaces of en.wiki and can be appealed here after six months, subject to evidence of non-disruptive editing in other areas. —SpacemanSpiff 04:08, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
              • Perhaps the easiest is to ban both from Indian languages. That way we get to see if Nagadeepa has broader interests and if hyper9 can edit constructively in the other Indian history topics. But, I will defer to Spiff on whatever they think best. --regentspark (comment) 16:51, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
    • The discussion has tapered off. @EdJohnston, Dennis Brown, and Sandstein:, do you have any further comments? There appears to be agreement from several editors to defer to SpacemanSpiff's suggestion of an indefinite TBan from "anything to do with Indian history including languages/linguistic history" for Hyper9 and an indefinite TBan from "anything to do with Indian languages" for Nagadeepa, both bans appealable here after six months, subject to evidence of non-disruptive editing in other areas. If no uninvolved admin objects, I will close this request with that result in 24 hours. Bishonen | talk 18:19, 25 February 2018 (UTC).

    Al-Andalusi

    In addition to the standard WP:ARBPIA restrictions, Al-Andalusi is restricted to one edit or one series of consecutive edits per 24 hours on an article for six months. --NeilN 20:54, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Al-Andalusi

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 07:39, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Al-Andalusi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. Revision as of 07:43, 25 February 2018 revert 1 in Middle East Monitor. Much of the revert is of this Revision as of 12:56, 30 January 2018 edit by an extended confirm user.
    2. Latest revision as of 08:07, 25 February 2018 revert 2 in Middle East Monitor of content added by an extended confirmed user .
    3. Revision as of 16:14, 23 February 2018 Addition of category "Media coverage of the Arab–Israeli conflict" to Middle East Monitor, indicating ARBPIA awareness.
    4. Revision as of 07:51, 25 February 2018 revert1 of Middle East Eye - removal of some 45% of the article's contents. Much of this content by reverted back into the article in Revision as of 11:59, 23 January 2018 by an extended confirmed user (and then some).
    5. Latest revision as of 08:06, 25 February 2018 revert2 of Middle East Eye, of content added in Revision as of 08:03, 25 February 2018.
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. Revision as of 09:01, 8 June 2017 6 Month Topic Ban for personal attacks and 1RR.
    2. Revision as of 09:57, 9 June 2017 1 week block for not following topic ban
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    As may be seen here Al-Andalusi talk page I requested Al-Andalusi self revert . This was replied to with a Nope, I did not. . user:EdJohnston also said this appeared to be a 1RR violation, and urged Al-Andalusi to self-revert. Following a discussion on why this was or was not a revert Al-Andalusi concluded by Like I said, any change to an article can be framed as a "revert" if one wants to push a certain narrative. Here, you are referencing an edit made a month ago, which tells me how ridiculous this revert claim is. I can go back to some of your edits and demonstrate the same, and claim you've been reverting and violating 1RR on articles. As an editor, it's not expected of me to review an article's history and check each and every edit made to an article, before I can make a change to it, and hope that I'm not "reverting" and violating 1RR.. Some 10 hours later - we're here.

    While it may be possible to cast a wider net here, the unwillingness to self-revert on a 1RR warning appears to be straightforward, and Al-Andalusi's final talk-page comment is troubling.

    • Willingness to self-revert - I filed this report after my reading of a long user talk page discussion ended with a stmt indicating clear unwillingness, in my eyes, to self revert or account for edits being reverts - and a day after the inital talk page exchange.Icewhiz (talk) 03:30, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
    • ARBPIA relevance: revert2 in Middle East Monitor and Middle East Eye are clearly both ARBPIA releated as it is directly involves Hamas. Revert1 to Middle East Monitor also involves Hamas, and the organization itself covers Israel-Palestine as its main focus arguably making any edit to it ARBPIA related. It could perhaps be argued that revert1 in Middle East Eye is not ARBPIA (there are merits either way), however as revert2 is clearly ARBPIA and the limitation is per page per ARBCOM decision - Each editor is limited to one revert per page per 24 hours on any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. and not on a per edit basis - this would appear to be a violation regardless due to ARBPIAness of revert2.Icewhiz (talk) 03:30, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
    • Regarding the attack on Capitals00 below - I did not canvass or contact him. He had however filed the previous AE report against Al-Andalusi on Acid throwing (a non-ARBPIA article in general, but ARBPIA related in the Gaza/West Bank section covering usage of this by Islamists against so called collaboraters) which led to the previous topic ban. I would assume he has AE watched.Icewhiz (talk) 04:12, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
    • @Kingsindian: - most of the content in the 3 successive edits by Al-Andalusi between 05:04 and 07:43 - combined diff are reverts of 12:56, 30 January 2018 by User:Zakawer who is in good standing. The grandson bit has been there for a while - however most of the other content removed is quite recent (not that technically this should be an issue - WP:3RR (modified by WP:1RR from 3 to 1, but retaining the definition of revert) does not stipulate a time limit or an age requirement regarding undoing of other editor's actions. An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert.). In any event - this is for the most part quite recent material - and as this is not an often edited article - Zakawer was the last major edit prior to Al-Andalusi editing the page - making this very close in terms of diffs.Icewhiz (talk) 10:12, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
    • @Kingsindian: @NeilN: - I had not intended to bring this up vis-a-vis previous requests, however I shall since it has been brought up here. @Shrike: asked them to self-revert , as did I this revert violated the original author clause in regards to edits 30 minutes previously - which was not done. I also asked TP request self-revert on original authorship and revert which was not done - they cited BLPCRIME - however this is a PUBLICFIGURE, and this is not relevant (besides other problems here). Excluding the 1RR vios in this report - there were 4 previous requests (1 Shrike, 3 myself), of which 2 were not done (both involved the "original author provision", however they were clear violations of it). I did not report these at the time due to a combination of WP:AGF (e.g. on the first example he wasn't editing for 3 days - so I AGFed he may have been away) and since I do not report everything. What made me report this one - was the talk page reply to the request which treated "reverts" as "narrative", and labelled the request as "ridiculous".Icewhiz (talk) 20:48, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
    • @NeilN: The proposed remedy would not resolve the "original author" clause addition to ARBPIA (it would be good on straight 1rr) - a problem above as well as in requests by Al-Andalusi, e.g. this mistaken request (as I was not the original author) for a self revert on my TP Revision as of 04:24, 28 February 2018 - half of which was a category written in Farsi (which Al-Andalusi reverted back in, and requested a self revert on).Icewhiz (talk) 23:18, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    Latest revision as of 07:36, 26 February 2018


    Discussion concerning Al-Andalusi

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Al-Andalusi

    There is an ongoing discussion regarding this on my talk page involving Icewhiz and 2 admins (EdJohnston and Dennis Brown) here. I have pinged EdJohnston and have not heard back either from him or Dennis Brown, so I assumed this is a non-issue. Had EdJohnston or Dennis Brown replied back and confirmed the alleged violation, I would have gladly self-reverted, as I did in the past.

    Meanwhile, I continue to disagree with Icewhiz's description of events where he digs up edits that are at least one-month old (Jan 30, Jan 23) and I'm not even aware of, and then conveniently re-interprets some of my changes as being "reverts" of them. What he refers to as "revert 1" would not be called "reverts" on a normal day. Also, notice the use of dramatic sentences like "removal of some 45% of the article's contents". If the content is bad, then it should be removed, doesn't matter how large it is. I think everyone will agree with me on this. In this edit, user Zero0000 (talk · contribs) removed the same exact content from Middle East Monitor on Feb 11 on the same grounds as my removal of it from Middle East Eye. Someone had copy pasted the content to the 2 articles. Icewhiz, who clearly spent considerable time studying the editing history of both articles to construct his narrative, would not have missed this change.

    One important point: The history of editing on both articles shows that none of the editors treated the article as falling under 1RR. Icewhiz is misleading when he counts edits related to the Muslim Brotherhood as being ARBPIA-related. The Muslim Brotherhood does not even have a 1RR tag. Icewhiz does not explain why he treats Middle East Eye as a 1RR article in his report, and further, why he lists my edits at Middle East Eye before his arrival to the article as being ARBPIA related (point #4 on his list). I fail to see the connection. In the same list, for the other article, he counts my edit here as ARBPIA-related, even though the mention of Hamas is tangential and clearly not the intent of my edit.

    I ask that the admins not look at this case literally, as this is the angle that Icewhiz wants to focus on. Instead, ask if it is appropriate for a news organizations to be labelled as the "Muslim Brotherhood" based on sources critical of the news organization? Icewhiz restored the problematic Category:Muslim Brotherhood, knowing fully the problems that comes with it (he recently removed Category:Propaganda in Israel from Public diplomacy of Israel arguing that it is "POVish..."). Al-Andalusi (talk) 00:57, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

    Note: Originally posted in Capitals00's section; moved by User:Black Kite. I don't know you, and I don't know who you think you are to demand a topic ban or a block. Admins: it should be noted that the above user was never involved in the Arab-Israeli space, so for him to show up here uninvited is a sign of either Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry or WP:Canvassing. Al-Andalusi (talk) 23:41, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

    Added - Feb 28:

    Technically, any edit can be said to reverse some of a previous edit; however, this is not the way the community interprets reversion, because it is not consistent with either the principle of collaborative editing or with the editing policy. Wholesale reversions (complete reversal of one or more previous edits) are singled out for special treatment because a reversion cannot help an article converge on a consensus version.
    1. I was not involved in the article around the time the first edit was made by Zakawer, a month ago.
    2. I was not aware that I was actually undoing someone else's edits as part of my changes. As far I was concerned at the time of my editing, I was doing routing editing. So far, NO evidence has been presented that shows that I was aware of this fact at the time (directly or indirectly).
    3. The fact that the admins are split on this indicates that (a) there is no clear definition of reverting, and what properly distinguishes reversions from edits in general, and (2) there is no clear definition of "recent" here. A month old, 6-months old? a year old? I think any admin worth a damn knows what a revert is, and "revert 1" is not one of them.
    4. That said, this is gaming the system of the worst degree. In fact, the originator of the report spells it out here for you guys: the definition of revert does not stipulate a time limit or an age requirement regarding undoing of other editor's actions. I have no doubt in my mind, and this is already made clear from the report, that Icewhiz would not have found it an issue to cite a year old edit (if it was available) to support his claims that I partially reverted it.
    5. I've had a look around at a few pages, and if that's the rule, then almost every editor is violating the rule many times. I don't really understand the thinking behind this at all. Al-Andalusi (talk) 14:30, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
    @NeilN:, you claim that my intent was clear. What was my intent? Al-Andalusi (talk) 14:43, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
    @NeilN: Sir, your ignorance is showing. You use the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas interchangeably and I think it's time to clarify a few things. (1) Hamas no longer claims that it is part of the Muslim Brotherhood, and made that official in their new charter declared in May 2017. (2) the main Muslim Brotherhood is not even a 1RR article to begin with. Of the troubling edit that you are using against me, 95% of it revolved around the Brotherhood, not Hamas. The mention of "Hamas" in the "See also" section is quite tangential and I think you will agree with it. I kindly ask that you re-consider your position in light of the above. Al-Andalusi (talk) 15:05, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
    @NeilN: That's not a response. Sorry. Your claim that my intent was to "remove content that states the site is sympathetic to Hamas" is demonstrably false. Look at the Middle East Monitor#Criticism section, and you'll find that I left sourced "pro-Hamas" accusations there. Not to mention, Muslim Brotherhood != Hamas. The diffs speak for themselves indeed. Al-Andalusi (talk) 15:29, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
    @Kingsindian:. I don't have a problem with self-reverting in this case. This is the very first thing I stated in my statement. I was just waiting for a clear confirmation that my first edit indeed counts as a revert. That said, it is clear that NeilN and GR have made up their minds from day 1, and further discussion would be futile. Their one-sidedness is glaringly apparent. Al-Andalusi (talk) 16:50, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Capitals00

    I had resumed watching editing of Al-Andalusi since he came off from a topic ban in December. I could see continued POV editing that led the topic ban before, but this time I had decided not to report Al-Andalusi myself. Unfortunately, it didn't helped Al-Andalusi.

    I must say that Icewhiz has made best efforts to mentor Al-Andalusi about his violations, however Al-Andalusi is not willing to improve. Continued POV editing is concerning. Either a topic ban or a block is warranted. Capitals00 (talk) 09:59, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

    It is deceptive of Al-Andalusi to claim that he doesn't know me because he can't really forget these two ARE complaints: that I had filed, yet he claims that this is a "sign of either Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry or WP:Canvassing", this alone shows that Al-Andalusi treats Misplaced Pages to be his WP:BATTLEGROUND. Capitals00 (talk) 14:52, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
    @Icewhiz: I have his talk page on watchlist as well, I did interacted him before filing a complaint here, obviously when I said you have "made best efforts to mentor" to mentor him, I was referring to your discussions made on his talk page that I read since last December. Capitals00 (talk) 12:42, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
    In the light of above WP:IDHT from Al-Andalusi I believe that indef topic ban is the solution. He already had a 6 month topic ban back in June 2017, which he had violated and was blocked for a week. Even after all that there has been a lack of improvement. Capitals00 (talk) 15:15, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Dennis Brown

    I interjected into the discussion only to explain how contacting an admin wasn't "canvassing", and never reviewed the merits of the claim in depth. A cursory glance did show the claims were not so cut and dry; They need to be looked at closer than just the diffs provided. This is the busy time of year for me, so I didn't have time to look further, so I will just stay on this side of the admin line, this time. EdJohnston probably has more information on the merits, and I would welcome his input down below. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:17, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Kingsindian

    I don't know if this is 1RR or not, but my general view is that in this area, the rules are so convoluted that nobody knows how they work (including the people who write them). My own practice is to self-revert when asked, whether or not I think the request is right.

    This practice saves time and tedious wikilawyering in which one may or may not prevail. You can always make the edit a day later. Why take the risk?

    Let's put aside the wording and look at the "spirit" of the 1RR remedy. Let's forget the edit made a month earlier. Only look at edits diff1 (by Al-Andalusi), diff2 (by Icewhiz) and diff3 (again by Al-Andalusi). All of them happened within 24 hours.

    Diff1 removed the association of MEMO with the Muslim Brotherhood, diff2 restored it (using a bit different wording), and diff3 removed it again. The "spirit" of the remedy is to ensure that between diff3 and diff1 (made by the same person), there should be a bit of time, and ideally some discussion on the talkpage (which is happening on the MEMO talk page).

    I would therefore, ask Al-Andalusi to self-revert voluntarily (they can make the edit a day later if they still think it's justified) and this request be closed as no action. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:53, 27 February 2018 (UTC) Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:55, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

    What is the "revert 1" cited by NeilN a revert of? Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 09:37, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
    @NeilN: May I suggest another approach? If you look at Al-Andalusi's talkpage, you'll see a couple more instances where Icewhiz asked them to self-revert due to 1RR and they (eventually) did. That suggests that they genuinely thought that this case was not a case of 1RR. The main point is that the first "revert" was of an edit more than a month ago (actually it has been fought over for years).

    In political areas, it is not unusual for things to be litigated over and over by newer people. One can't immediately consider every deletion a "revert" (by the way, by the same logic, any addition could also be considered a "revert" of some removal in the past).

    To my mind, the main issue is that Al-Andalusi doesn't understand the "spirit" of the 1RR remedy in this area: one shouldn't make the same edit (perhaps paraphrased) twice in 24 hours. This approach doesn't require refererence to a month-old diff unrelated to the main dispute. I suggest that Al-Andalusi be informed of the "spirit" of the remedy, and only warned for now. To Al-Andalusi, I suggest that they follow the practice I mention above: they self-revert when asked, regardless of whether they think it's right or wrong. This approach would require some WP:AGF which the admins may or may not be willing to extend to Al-Andalusi (considering their past record). Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 17:57, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

    @NeilN: The case you refer to is almost a year old. If you say that "Al-Andalusi doesn't understand 1RR, period", how do you explain the self-revert here (after this discussion) or here (after this discussion)?

    Instead, consider my hypothesis: they don't (fully) understand the "tweaked 1RR" remedy in this area. According to the tweaked 1RR remedy, a person who makes an edit cannot make the same (or similar) edit within 24 hours. In the previous two cases, Al-Andalusi self-reverted after this remedy was pointed out to them. If the same remedy had been pointed to by Icewhiz here, I'd suggest that there would have been less resistance. Instead, a diff from a month ago (which Al-Andalusi claims that they weren't even aware of) was pointed out as the original content which was reverted. In this area, I'm sure you know, people are suspicious of bad faith and wikilawyering.

    This is why I say above: let's not refer to a diff from a month ago at all. Let's just work with the "tweaked 1RR rule" which already exists, which only looks at diffs within a 24-hour period. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 06:05, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

    A more general comment: during the last ARCA request, I raised this point (of an edit potentially being the revert of an edit indefinitely long in the past) multiple times. My warnings were pooh-poohed by the Arbs who said the scenarios that I was painting were all implausible and the admins at AE will apply common sense anyway, etc. Now, amirite or amirite? I suggested (tongue-in-cheek) in that section that we block a random ArbCom member when my warnings come true. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 06:36, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
    @NeilN: Yes, that's what used to be a safe practice to deal with the tweaked 1RR in this area. Unfortunately, with the recent ARCA request, that no longer suffices, because you have to wait 24 hours after the the other person's revert to be completely safe, and what counts as a revert isn't clear. Yeah, it's stupid, but I warned against it repeatedly and ArbCom passed it anyway.

    However, your suggestion would work in 95% of the cases, and Al-Andalusi could be asked (or instructed, whatever) that if somebody asks them to self-revert, they do it regardless of whether they think it's right or wrong. This has been my practice for many years, and I have had zero problems. I will also talk to Al-Andalusi on their talkpage. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 23:11, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Al-Andalusi

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • This does not appear actionable to me. To begin with, no specific remedy that is to be enforced is cited, but only a whole case, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, which comprises several remedies. Assuming that the 1RR restriction is to be enforced, the cited diffs don't establish, in my view, clear-cut 1RR violations, but rather situations that can come about in the course of ordinary editing (putting aside the merits of these edits by either side). Because 1RR is a very problematic restriction that is easily violated in the course of even constructive back-and-forth editing, I'm very reluctant to act on it except in the clearest of cases, i.e. repeated direct reverts. Sandstein 10:39, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
    • Revert 1, Revert 2. I'd say that was a 1RR violation. --NeilN 15:39, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
    • Kingsindian, this addition. --NeilN 13:31, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
    • Al-Andalusi You are citing an essay. Policy says "An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert." Admins look at the intent of the edits and your intent here was clear. There is also no admin "split" here. Four admins (including EdJohnston) agree you violated WP:1RR. A three to six month topic ban seems appropriate. --NeilN 14:41, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
    • Al-Andalusi To remove content that states the site is sympathetic to Hamas. I'm not saying the removals were not justified (or were justified). I'm saying the intent of your edits is clear. --NeilN 14:48, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
    • This response from an editor coming off a six month topic ban in December is not encouraging at all. The diffs speak for themselves. --NeilN 15:14, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
    • @Kingsindian: Looking at this, I would say that Al-Andalusi doesn't understand WP:1RR, period. And looking at the subsequent block, it was again involving Hamas. Is there anything Al-Andalusi brings to the table that would justify always having an extra warning step before reporting? And bear in mind it's pretty easy to duck these self-revert requests by laying low until someone else uses their WP:1RR opportunity and reverts. --NeilN 20:37, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
    • @Kingsindian: 1) If Al-Andalusi understood WP:1RR there wouldn't be editors constantly reminding them to follow it. 2) We're not applying WP:1RR to only content changed within the last 24 hours. That's a non-starter. 3) A month is hardly "indefinitely long" - please don't resort to hyperbole. Bottom line: If you remove some content and another editor adds similar content then don't remove it within 24 hours of your first removal to be safe. Sandstein, do you have any further comments here? --NeilN 16:18, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
    • @Al-Andalusi: I'm trying to come up with a solution that would eliminate the need for other editors to constantly ask you to self revert. "Al-Andalusi is restricted to one edit or one series of consecutive edits per 24 hours on an article" would probably work. What do you think? --NeilN 19:14, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
    • If no admin objects I will be implementing a restriction as follows: "In addition to the standard WP:ARBPIA restrictions, Al-Andalusi is restricted to one edit or one series of consecutive edits per 24 hours on an article for six months." --NeilN 00:21, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
    • I don't have scads of time to look into this. I don't think we should be insisting that editors bringing complaints here must fill out the form exactly correctly in every respect or we will simply dismiss the complaint; this is not a judicial proceeding and it seems clear enough to me what the complaint is getting at. I agree with NeilN that the diffs he links seem a clear 1RR violation (not to mention that this also appears to be a revert of a recent edit in the same 24-hour window). And Al-Andalusi's response here is not encouraging. My gut feeling is that spending three to six months away from ARBPIA would be a good thing. GoldenRing (talk) 17:26, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
    • @NeilN: actually I think your first diff is a revert of this - the original page creation back in 2015. While this perhaps makes that revert a bit more muddy, I still think it's clearly a revert and part of an effort to remove Islamist associations. And even without it, I still count two reverts in 24 hours. GoldenRing (talk) 16:56, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

    MapSGV

    MapSGV is indefinitely blocked as a normal admin action (not an AE action). Sandstein 22:36, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning MapSGV

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Elektricity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 06:33, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    MapSGV (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan#Standard discretionary sanctions

    The user MAPS should be Topic banned from India-Pakistan articles indefinitely as they have shown that they cannot engage in debate without antagonizing others and attacking others. If disruption continues on other projects , perhaps a site wide ban.

    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 04:56, 1 March 2018 This is one of the long list of perosnal attacks from the user. He has made no contributions to the project since his return some months ago (The contributions log shows only some reverts and the rest is very WP:POINTY content on talk pages etc.)
    2. 04:52, 1 March 2018 Along the same lines, accusations, aspersions.
    3. 08:02, 27 February 2018 More personal attacks. "Keep your agenda driven disruption out"
    4. 09:01, 20 February 2018 Another personal attack.
    5. 13:35, 20 February 2018 A somewhat lengthy perosnal attack. Includes, "You are fooling yourself if you really believe such nonsense", " It's a shame that you waste so much time on Misplaced Pages yet you don't agree with it core principles for the sake of your POV" etc.
    6. 13:43, 20 February 2018 More personal attacks.
    7. 14:25, 20 February 2018 User also dispalys classic WP:TRUTH attitude.
    8. 15:09, 20 February 2018 Another personal attack.
    9. 09:33, 21 February 2018 More of WP:POINTY comments, which may be considered benign on thie rown, but as a pattern they are clearly disruptive.
    10. 09:57, 21 February 2018 More personal attacks, like "Quit trolling already. It won't help you". "You need to worry about your disruption which is occurring throughout Misplaced Pages despite your very bad past that is further going to affect your future in Misplaced Pages. It is funniest when a disruptive POV pusher is trying to lecture."
    11. 13:13, 21 February 2018 Another personal attack, calling a troll and "I am editing since 2014, but I never saw this much nonsense ever before on Misplaced Pages" (He has only 100 or so edits in that period and none of them are mainspace green edits, just reverts or comments like these)
    12. 16:04, 26 February 2018 Again, another rude and antagonistic summary.
    13. 07:26, 27 February 2018 Edit warring (Diffs continue below)
    14. 04:30, 28 February 2018 Again WP:TRUTH
    15. 00:13, 1 March 2018 Deleting the RFC template started by another user and accusing them of being a sock.
    16. 04:53, 1 March 2018 Twice, added the same accusation as well.
    17. 04:58, 1 March 2018 And then again made the same edit to the RFC.
    18. 05:23, 1 March 2018 Another personal attack.
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any


    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
    • Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 20 February 2018
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    This user has made no contributions to the project and thier presence is just antagonizing others. PErhaps if an experienced editor with thousands of edits messes up and makes a personal attack or pointed remark once in a while, he can be warned about it. But this user has around a hundred or so reverts/comments and out of those this large number is antagonistic. He should be removed from area of conflict. The India-Pak articles are very contentious even to begin with, and antagonizing remarks and personal attacks like this just destroy any chance of collaboration that there may be, causing irreparable harm to wikipedia.

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:MapSGV&diff=828219182&oldid=828208089&diffmode=source

    Discussion concerning MapSGV

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by MapSGV

    I would like to commend the analysis made by Lorstaking below, that I have been constantly harassed by some editors who are doing nothing but personalizing small and rather easy content disputes.

    Every of my comment was a reply to actual personal attack that often included false allegations that I am an SPA, sock, and no evidence was ever provided for these claims.

    Civil POV pushing is a huge problem where a person looks to justify his disruption by falsely labelling every kind of opposition to his disruption as "personal attack" while exhibiting clear WP:IDHT, engaging in edit warring, misrepresenting sources, and such disruption is too prevalent here. Finally what degrades the quality of this website is these editors who are socking for a long time or they have been blocked/topic banned still they are insulting other editors (such as me) by calling them a sock/SPA and engaging in disruptive POV pushing, making personal attacks. But when you dispute any of their argument you are misrepresented as someone who is making personal attacks. That is nothing but WP:GAMING. — MapSGV (talk) 19:06, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by MBlaze

    This request should not be entertained as the filer is a blatant sock of a disruptive topic banned editor, and is on the verge of getting site banned himself. —MBL 06:47, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Lorstaking

    MapSGV's actions are perfect especially when we recognize the fact that he is a productive editor who is unfortunately dealing with a disruptive wikihounding sock of a topic ban evading user. Elektricity is just trying to take wrong advantage of slow SPI processes and by filing this spurious report, where he deliberately failed to notify MapSGV, he is digging his own grave. Lorstaking (talk) 07:02, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

    @GoldenRing: I think you are only reading what MapSGV has said, but you are not reading what he was replying to. Users have engaged in great amount of incivility against him as well as range of false allegations in order to evade their WP:CIR issues. I can clarify the diffs right here:

    • was a reply to where an editor falsely labelled reliable sources as WP:FAKE not just once but two times. Not to mention that WP:FAKE refers to fake/non-existing references, not reliable sources that meets WP:VERIFY.
    • was a reply to where other editor personalized dispute by telling "80 edits over a 4 year period starts making such POV edits across longstanding war articles out of no where, we have far more to worry about".
    • was a reply to where other editor called him to "drop your POV stick, because an SPA whose first edits involve adding contentious OR and POV across several articles doesn't have a very bright future on Misplaced Pages.'' Clearly a personal attack because MapSGV is not an SPA but someone who had edited subjects such as Libya, Egypt, Hinduism, cuisines, India, China, and more before the other editor made such personal attack in place of discussing the article.
    • was a reply to where other editor made false accusations of personal attacks and ignored the discussion about content.
    • was a reply to , where other editor called him, "You are not only a POV warrior, but an ] whose only purpose is to cause disruption. And you are definitely ]" (calling him MapSGV a sockpuppet without evidence).
    • this was a reply to , where the editor made false allegations of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH, despite sources supporting the content without any question.

    Above diffs involve interaction with only 2 users, who have a bad block log and history of sanctions for editing in this very same area and even in above diffs you can see clear WP:IDHT. And this all started only after MapSGV argued that results must show that India won the war because that is what zillions of reliable sources say, but these two editors went to make personal attacks on him in place of providing sources that contradict the sourced content. I think they deserves to be sanctioned for their incompetence if anything. FWIW, 6 people against 3 have agreed with what MapSGV wants on talk page.

    I wouldn't go on describing rest of the diffs that are either free of ARBPAK coverage or they are a product of wikihounding and other sorts of harassment from the filer, who also was falsely alleging MapSGV to be a "sleeper-esque" and "throw away sleeper" for days before filing this spurious report.

    Talking about personal attacks, I don't see even a single personal attack here from MapSGV or false accusations like rest of others have carried out against him. There is no prohibition on much larger level of incivilities in Misplaced Pages. Though I understand that this allegation of "personal attack" has been overblown in this report because filer failed to find his way to misrepresent sources, use self-published and non-reliable sources on the article for his POV pushing, hence he resorted to filing a spurious report. You can also have a look at the SPI where Capitals00 shows the evidence of him filing same spurious reports from his main account.

    I would better recommend this report should closed as spurious or the filer should be blocked for his deception and using the noticeboard for battleground. We should let the SPI have its run. Lorstaking (talk) 16:20, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning MapSGV

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • I would like to see the outcome of the SPI before taking action here. Otherwise, the evidence presented seems to consist of very low-level incivility, though the sheer volume of it could be a problem. GoldenRing (talk) 14:41, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
    • I do think this is actionable. Personal attacks are prohibited, irrespective of whether the other user is a sockpuppet. @MapSGV: please respond promptly. Sandstein 18:49, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
    • The response by MapSGV is unsatisfactory, as it only attempts to excuse MapSGV's misconduct, rather than convince us that it will not reoccur. Incivility by others is no excuse for incivility of one's own. The scope of the problem as demonstrated by the diffs in evidence requires action. MapSGV has made only 223 edits so far, which of course raises socking questions of its own given the user's fluency in Misplaced Pages jargon, but it matters here insofar as this means that the 18 diffs reported here constitute close to 10% of the user's total edits. This is an unacceptable signal-to-noise ratio. I am indefinitely blocking MapSGV (as a normal admin action) as a net negative for Misplaced Pages. If they are unblocked, I anticipate imposing a topic ban. Sandstein 22:34, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

    Andrew Davidson

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Andrew Davidson

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Sitush (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:19, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Andrew Davidson (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBIPA :

    What appears to be a long-term fundamental inability to understand the complexities of the Indian caste system leads to often lengthy and wikilawyered discussions such as here, here and here. There is no easy way to explain the complexities in 500 words, sorry, but, for example, in the last diff AD argues use of sources that simply do not refer in any meaningful way to the subject, in the linked Samra discussion he argued at length to use unreliable sources, causing Drmies to issue a sanctions alert, and in the first of these diffs he argued using both unreliable sources and with a clear lack of understanding of how the caste system functions. As some of those diffs infer, they are not the only examples but I'm struggling with the interaction tools at the moment - they keep timing out or simply not returning a result.

    We've currently got this, where AD is perpetuating his previous stances, again without any apparent understanding of the caste system. In that discussion, he seems even to think that we should keep an invalid statement rather than remove it and so cause an article to be blank. He has also been arguing at length about the validity of the most recent sanctions alerts here, indulging in yet more time-consuming litigation of dubious merit.

    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

    None known

    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months here, soon after expiry of one issued issue a sanctions here.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    I have filed this under the username Andrew Davidson but some past discussions were under another username, Colonel Warden, which he allegedly agreed with ArbCom to stop using but actually has not. The AD account is more active of late.

    It is ok to have an opinion but to tendentiously pursue it can be problematic, as can misrepresenting what sources say even if it is due to a lack of understanding. I'd like to see a topic ban from caste-related matters, broadly construed, because I and probably others feel like we're banging our heads against a brick wall.

    • Replying to AD's edits here. It is nothing specifically to do with one AfD. It is a general pattern of lack of comprehension that, in fact, you are even demonstrating in your comments here. The problem is, you mention expanding your interests into editing caste-related articles but you cannot even demonstrate understanding in the AfDs, throwing in irrelevant sources (the Oxford book being one), unreliable ones and arguments that are non-starters because the caste system does not operate in the manner that you seem to believe. - Sitush (talk) 20:46, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
    • @Sandstein: then you are unwittingly part of the problem. I know that CIR is not a policy but when someone like Andrew Davidson gets involved it just creates a shedload of issues that need to be addressed. Just one example: this not only fails WP:V on the relevant point but makes a grossly incorrect assumption that "important" = something special in terms of Reservation in India. It doesn't. There are plenty of "important" communities - politically, economically etc - that do not conform to the original research which AD insists makes this impossible list meet LISTN. Yes, AD is a quite extreme inclusionist and, yes, way back he gave me my first barnstar for rescuing an article at AfD, but if people cannot understand that caste-related issues need understanding then there is no hope, sorry. And when the same easily verifiable point is made again and again but AD refuses to accept it, well ... It is just a timesink and it is a timesink that can have quite peculiar consequence because these articles are not particularly well watched (Catch 22?). In this instance, I strongly suspect that AD's fake references in the first AfD caused it to be determined as not suitable for deletion, yet he protests when the thing is blanked because there is nothing verifiable. Then comes back umpteen years later and says he can make it verifiable but in fact he cannot, as anyone familiar with the topic would know. The same applies to his insistence that unreliable sources are in fact ok to use.
    I admit that I am struggling to explain here. I know for sure that there are people who think AD is being absurd but this is a topic area where scrutiny is poor and one of the consequences of that is examples such as the current AfD, which comes out of a previous AfD that had no merit other than the fake refs, a complete lack of comprehension, and an admin who presumably saw some mention of sources and thought "that's ok". But, as I said at the outset, this is not a one-off issue. - Sitush (talk) 00:31, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
    • @Sandstein: I acknowledge your comment about a lack of diffs. I was utterly bemused regarding how I could possibly give specific diffs in such a complex matter but if you can suggest a way to disentangle then that would be great. As it is, I am sort of hoping that common sense could prevail here: if people really cannot see the problem just reading a few example threads then, frankly, I despair and may as well give up. We have two sets of sanctions regims for the topic area for a reason.
    @D4iNa4: I have had little involvement in this process and couldn't possibly comment except to say that I used the word unwittingly on purpose. - Sitush (talk) 01:34, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Notified here

    Discussion concerning Andrew Davidson

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Andrew Davidson

    What we have here is an AfD – note that I have not edited the article in question at any time. I'd be quite happy to stop arguing about the matter and just let the AfD process take its usual course but it's Sitush that keeps coming to my talk page to belabour the matter (8 times already today). There are some content issues and I understand them just fine. What Sitush doesn't seem to understand is our policies and guidelines such as WP:PRESERVE and WP:BLANK and he states openly in the discussion that he's not heard of them before. My position is that there's some scope for improvement here and so our policy WP:PRESERVE would have us prefer this alternative to deletion. In the course of discussion, I have produced good sources such The Oxford Handbook of Sikh Studies – a respectable and recent work from a university press. I have also pointed to other related pages such as List of Other Backward Classes in Sikhism which no-one else seemed to have noticed. I'd be quite content to have both these pages merged to Sikhism#Sikh_castes which contains a similar list of Sikh castes and so am quite flexible about the outcome. All that needs to happen now is a period of quiet so that other editors can contribute to the AfD and then the closer can settle the matter in the usual way. Compare, for example, Manchu studies, which is about a similar weak page but for which I have found a good source. I have no strong feelings about these topics but am entitled to my views on them, as is common at AfD, and I contribute usefully to the discussions, arguing from sources and policy, as we're supposed to. Note that the previous AfD referred to (Samra) was over two years ago and so these issues don't arise often enough to warrant special measures. What might require attention is Sitush's insulting incivility, for example, "how dense can you be ... your incompetence". In that previous AfD, I noted that Sitush seemed to be violating WP:OWN, WP:PA and WP:BLUDGEON and we have the same pattern again here. Andrew D. (talk) 20:37, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

    • @RegentsPark: should please move their contribution from the section reserved for "uninvolved admins" because, as they recently discussed the specific topic in question, they seem involved. Note that, when they stated their opinion of the topic, they did not provide any evidence, whereas I provide and cite examples, sources and policy. Note that I don't just google in a crude way, as RP supposes. I have an extensive personal library, including multiple, respectable books on the specific subject of caste. I have good access to research libraries in London which I regularly visit, such as the BL, the Senate House Library, the Wellcome Library and more. Through these and other resources such as the Misplaced Pages Library, I have good access to online resources such as JSTOR. I am therefore able to read and quote sources when needed to develop or support a position, as in this case. I fully appreciate the ramifications of this topic area but my general position is that we should explore alternatives to deletion so that topics can make progress, rather than being stuck in an unproductive cycle of creation, blanking, reversion and deletion. Andrew D. (talk) 18:07, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Andrew Davidson

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • I don't see how this is actionable. To begin with, the request contains no diffs of edits by Andrew Davidson. As to the caste-related discussions linked to in the request, I don't see anything substantial, at first glance, that might amount to sanctionable misconduct by Andrew Davidson. Even if one assumes with Sitush that Andrew Davidson is mistaken or ill-informed with respect to the questions at issue, that is not a violation of Misplaced Pages conduct policy. I don't see how this is more than a content dispute coupled with strong disagreement on the inclusionism / deletionism axis. Such disputes should be resolved through normal dispute resolution rather than through arbitration. Sandstein 22:49, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
    • Sitush, AE is a bit strict on policy, evidence, etc for pretty good reasons. To act, we need clear cut diffs that show obvious misconduct. Nebulous patterns of behavior don't fit into WP:AE very well. Keep in mind. AE isn't a consensus board, when an admin acts, they act unilaterally, and they have the authority to ignore everyone else, or take those opinions to heart. We usually work together and often a majority agrees with the outcome, but whichever admin closes and acts, s/he owns those actions, and must be able to articulate the issue via WP:adminaccct. Looking briefly at your case, I don't see a solid case being presented, even while admitting one might exist. My advice is to have actual diffs along with SHORT explanations for each, and take it to ANI, which is better suited for long drawn out ordeals, and allows input from everyone. ARBPIA restrictions can still be issued from there, but if this situation is as you describe, it transcends ARB and would be getting into general policy, which is easier to deal with. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:45, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
    • While I don't see anything actionable here, I do see some cause for concern. Looking through the edits, it appears that Andrew Davidson, though editing in good faith, doesn't understand the domain. Caste in India is a complex subject, continuously confounded by interest groups, government action, and poor quality judgements made during the Raj era. It is because of this complexity that we have imposed community discretionary sanctions on this area and most uninvolved admins, like myself, issue warnings and blocks solely based on sourcing, i.e., whether edits are sourced or not and, if sourced, whether there is consensus on the reliability of those sources. Editing by googling the way Andrew Davidson is doing is not going to work very well in this area because it invariably pulls up unreliable sources. Insisting on Raj era sources when consensus is against using them is not going to work very well either. But, like I said, there is probably nothing actionable here right now because Andrew Davidson appears to be editing in good faith. However, if this continues, a topic ban from caste related articles is likely in the future. --regentspark (comment) 15:27, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
      AndrewDavidson, I don't consider myself involved because I have no opinion on caste matters and an occasional drive by comment doesn't change that. Also, like I state above, I don't think you're editing in bad faith here. Rather, regardless of the quality of access you may or may not have to sources, you seem to be editing with a shallow understanding of the complexity of the topic area, particularly with your "if we build it the sources and content will come" approach which is practically an invitation to the POV editors out there. Also, if I may point out, the three sources you include here are all google books sources which, unfortunately, do give the impression of being found through a google search rather than through visits to the various libraries you list above. That you are editing against consensus is fairly well borne out by comments from other editors such as in this edit summary and this one. Regardless, all I am saying is that when you have a shallow understanding of a topic area, it is generally better to edit with a light touch than with an aggressive one.--regentspark (comment) 19:33, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
      Actually, since you asked for diffs I looked a little deeper. The AfD in question is a second nomination. In the first nomination, you !voted keep with the same three sources that you've listed in the 2nd nomination and with the same "if we build it the sources will come" rationale but, in the three plus intervening years, you have neither edited the article nor done anything with those sources (nor has anyone else). That, it seems to me, pretty much backs up my "shallow editor" hypothesis. A shallow understanding of the content and an aggressive editing style are not a good combination. --regentspark (comment) 19:48, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

    The Rambling Man

    No action. GoldenRing (talk) 21:22, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning The Rambling Man

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    SarekOfVulcan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:08, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    The Rambling Man (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/The Rambling Man#The Rambling Man prohibited :

    The Rambling Man is prohibited from posting speculation about the motivations of editors or reflections on their general competence.

    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. TRM asks if anyone in Women in Red has articles to nominate for DYK for March 8 Not a vio, obviously
    2. "Well, yes, it was just an opportunity to promote women in general. I understand if you're no longer interested in that. Sorry I mentioned it." Insulting the motivations of the two editors who declined the offer
    3. "...the fact that no-one here is interested in getting eight women hooks onto the main page for the whole day is clear..." Again insulting the editors who'd rather create articles than shepherd nominations they didn't want to make in the first place
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. Blocked for violating the same prohibition in March and September 2017 - see enforcement log in case
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:The_Rambling_Man&diff=828486522&oldid=828481054

    Discussion concerning The Rambling Man

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by The Rambling Man

    Statement by power~enwiki

    This looks like a complete waste of time. Saying that people aren't interested in DYK isn't insulting their motivations. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:15, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by GreenMeansGo

    Sarek, please do us all a favor and withdraw this. This is silly. GMG 21:19, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning The Rambling Man

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

    Willard84

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Willard84

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Excelse (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:43, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Willard84 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan#Standard discretionary sanctions :
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

    Warned by EdJohnston in July 2017 that: "If you continue to edit war on any topics related to India or Pakistan you are risking a topic ban."

    Template:History of Pakistan:

    Template ended up getting fully protected due to this edit warring.
    • There was a huge discussion regarding his disruption on this template and other namespaces on EdJohnston's talk page. But nothing has improved.
    • Once this protection was removed, he resumed edit warring against consensus.
    • Claiming there is "no consensus" regardless of the majority agreement of 8 editors against the non-consensus version of an editor who was topic banned from the subject and remains blocked indefinitely for sock puppetry.
    • Template ended up getting protected again due to his edit warring.
    • Misleading an admin that "consensus was actually not reached", and continued deception on talk page where he claimed that there was no consensus because, "Pakistani editors seems to be in unison that these changes were not warranted, though despite this being a template on Pakistani history, Pakistani editors’ opinions are actually in the minority here." This argument about ethnicity of involved editors is an example of WP:BATTLEGROUND.
    • The template editor rejected the request and said, "I see a consensus above which contradicts your request".

    Nanga Parbat:

    • Removes long term sourced content by falsely asserting that there "This has been discussed", regardless of any discussion.
    Removes it again in middle of new-born discussion.
    After that he removed the content from lead again, by moving it to section. (I added this sentence on 05:22, 5 March 2018 (UTC) after reading below comments )
    • Added an image without explaining the "puffery" he added.
    Edit warring to restore the puffery:
    Bludgeoning on talk page for adding the puffery against policies.
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    From block log:
    23:48, 6 July 2017 EdJohnston (talk | contribs) blocked Willard84 (talk | contribs) with an expiration time of 4 days (account creation blocked) (Edit warring: at Godhra train burning per a complaint at WP:AN3)
    07:31, 3 June 2017 El C (talk | contribs) changed block settings for Willard84 (talk | contribs) with an expiration time of 72 hours (account creation blocked) (Block evasion: Violation of the three-revert rule)
    02:29, 3 June 2017 El C (talk | contribs) blocked Willard84 (talk | contribs) with an expiration time of 24 hours (account creation blocked) (Violation of the three-revert rule)
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    These are the two most recent incidents that I can name. The long term edit warring, stonewalling, civil POV pushing, misrepresentation of consensus, and demonstration of WP:INCOMPETENCE shows that Willard84 is truly careless about how much disruption he is causing. I believe that a topic ban is clearly warranted now. Excelse (talk) 05:43, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

    @Sandstein: I don't know anything about the report against Mar4d, though his messages and comparison of the report against him with this report about Willard84 is described in the first point of WP:SANCTIONGAME. We have a "clear-cut case" here that Willard84 had made 4 reverts in less than 24 hours on 1988 Gilgit Massacre right after coming off from a 4 days block back in July 2017. But he wasn't blocked for edit warring because EdJohnston thought it would be better to give him a stringent warning that further edit warring will lead to topic ban. With Willard84's demonstration of his incompetence here we can simply agree that there are no chances of improvements. Since he has continued to edit war and there are many other issues with his disruptive editing and he has completed enough requirements for a topic ban, I am not sure what else needs to be clarified here. Excelse (talk) 05:22, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    Discussion concerning Willard84

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Willard84

    I’m confident the arbitrators will find this complaint to be unwarranted and not done in good faith. This is an editor who engaged me in a heated discussion months ago who now appears to be seeking some sort of discretionary sanctions based upon sour feelings. He’s making accusations essentially on behalf of others who didn’t find my behavior so disturbing that they themselves would file a request. Instead we have an editor with whom I haven’t interacted for many months randomly appearing out of the blue and stalking my edits to build a frivolous case against me. Out of many months of edits, and literally hundreds, if not thousands, of edits, he pulls out a few cherry picked examples to build a case. I think this violates the spirit of collaboration and I find this sort of stalking to be very objectionable - even worthy of sanctioning to be frank. If the arbitrators seriously feel these accusations warrant actual disciplinary measure against me, please ping me back to this page and I can dedicate more time to a rebuttal. So much of what he said is an inaccurate depiction that completely neglects so much, but just as a quick illustration of the sort of details that he neglects to mention, he didn’t inform you that the issue on the Nanga Parbat page that he complained about was resolved cordially via discussion with that other editor.Willard84 (talk) 08:37, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

    And as for the issue of consensus on the Pakistani history template page, once the third party declared they had seen consensus, I dropped the issue without further debate. This complainant neglects to mention that fact.Willard84 (talk) 11:29, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
    In response to User:Capitols00 below - this is a user who has tried and failed to get me blocked in the past. His friend User:Excelse, also jumped in that argument to join the witch hunt, and now roles are reversed. These two users act in unison to make these accusations every few months. His list of accusations seems impressive but is a paper tiger. He’s complaining that I removed Sanskrit from the Mt Kailasha page, which isn’t true. As shown on the talk page, I actually just moved it out of the lead because a few months back someone had removed this Chinese script and replaced it with Sanskrit, despite this being a Chinese mountain. He also claims claims that I removed Punjabi from a page about “Sikhism” though the Punjabi is still on that page about a temple in Pakistan. What he neglected to mention is that a user had tried to remove the Urdu name, and replace it only with Punjabi script. He also claims I removed a sectio about a Hindu temple - probably in an attempt to convince you of anti-Hindu bias, but he seems to neglect that the page it was removed from was about a fort, and that the temple in question has its own page, Prahladpuri Temple. Another ridiculous attempt to malign me is when he claims I removed Sanskrit from the Peshawar page, when it was actually changed to version of Sanskrit which is exceedingly commmon practice. He then claims I downplay the number of burushaski speakers in India, despite the fact that the NPR source in the article did indeed say 100. He tried to confuse you by pointing to a different source that says 300-400. That wasn’t the source in the article - but he’s using this new source to make a point.The rest of his list of accusations is similarly misconstrued. That’s probably why he’s scraping the bottom of the barrel for edits from months ago to build his case.
    That isn’t exactly the same sort of malicious intent Capitols00 tries to portray. Those are two random ones I chose. I can dedicate more time to a point by point rebuttal. But judging by how frequently Capitols00 joins these witch hunts (three cases in just a few days!), it should be no surprise that he’s jumping on the band wagon again. This sort of behavior, and misrepresentation of facts, ought to be themselves sanctioned like WP:BOOMERANG.Willard84 (talk) 23:15, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
    Statement exceeding 500 words removed as an admin action. Sandstein 23:25, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Raymond3023

    Willard84's on-going attempts to deceive others are concerning. He is still misrepresenting incidents and trying to throw mud on OP's report by falsely claiming the existence of the incidents that didn't even occurred when the report was filed. See WP:GAMING.

    The report was filed at 05:43 (UTC). At 08:37 (UTC) Willard84 changed timestamp of his 1 hour older response and makes a misleading claim that OP "neglects to mention, he didn’t inform you that the issue on the Nanga Parbat page that he complained about was resolved", after leaving a message on talk page at 08:32 (UTC), despite the report was filed almost 3 hours ago. Willard84 is now attempting to get away from the article by claiming that he "resolved cordially" when he is clearly giving up on the article and he failed to remove the sourced content and failed to get his puffery accepted because his disruption has been highlighted in this report. But I am sure he will resume his disruption on that article for his WP:OR.

    Furthermore, edit warring of Willard84 didn't even stopped with this one edit and one revert, because after he failed to remove the content from lead, he still removed it from lead by creating a new section called "Etymology" and moving material there and he provided no reason for his edit. Since his aim was to get rid of the meaning of the word from the lead, I would count it as 2 reverts for removing the meaning of the name, and 2 additional reverts for adding puffery. In total, he made 4 reverts.

    Seeing he is clearly working on deceiving others not only on articles but also here now, he is leaving me with no choice other than to support topic ban which would be still lenient because editors also get indeffed for such shenanigans. Raymond3023 (talk) 10:33, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by D4iNa4

    Willard84 you can't ignore your long term pattern of your nationalistic editing by making false accusations against others. Even if you had never edited the the main Template:History of Pakistan, your behavior on it's talk page has been purely disruptive, though you edit warred enough to get the template protected twice by restoring to a pseudohistorical nationalist version written by an editor who used a sock to notify you recently. The template should be totally unprotected the way Template:History of India is, even though it is much more edited and visited than Template:History of Pakistan. But due to your disruption I think we will never reach there unless you are topic banned. I am really seeing no justification for your actions. D4iNa4 (talk) 18:25, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

    Response to D4Nai by Willard84

    Nationalistic editing? The Template discussion revolved around whether consensus had been reached - don’t misconstrue this into a question of competing nationalism. I think the arbitrators here are well aware of how to spot arrogant nationalism - and it isn’t coming from me. The debate has been ongoing since October, yet you made a change in late February after months of stalemate and resurrected a version which was objectionable for its inclusion of minor empires like the Marathas who ruled for not even 2 years and left essentially no trace of their presence,while you suggested that the Indus Valley Civilization (with its major sites in modern Pakistan) be removed from a template about Pakistan. In fact, the changes you made aren’t the changes you put forward for discussion - you made a set of changes that hasn’t been discussed in their entirety. I was pushing for a reversion to status quo - I think you’ll need to do a better job of demonstrating how this was pushing a nationalist viewpoint. Even the comment about Pakistani viewpoints was explained in the debate as a point brought up simply because this fell under wiki project Pakistan. And anyway, once the third party had stated they thought consensus had been reached, I dropped the issue even though I think that third party did not consider the context behind it.

    D4iNa4 has had his own history of belligerent POV editing against me. Here another reviewer had to explain to D4iNai and another user that Washington Post is a reliable source when D4 had sided with another user to ensure the page only reflected claims that the train was burned as a result of a pre meditated “conspiracy” by Muslim passengers, by ensuring that any mention of events prior to the burning which cast other non-Muslim passengers as rowdy were not included.

    Willard84 (talk) 20:54, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Kautilya3

    I would acknowledge that Willard84 is a bit quick to hit the revert button, but he is a good productive editor otherwise. Perhaps a warning should suffice for now. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:34, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Lorstaking

    I agree with the filer, Raymond3023 and D4iNa4 but I disagree with Kautilya3. Another warning would be a waste of time since he has been already warned and blocked enough times for what he has been doing and he is not still not understanding the serious problems with his editing. According to his own statements here, he still believes that even if none of his edits were accepted they were still correct and also that others are engaging in misconduct by not accepting them. He still believes his edits are correct where he is treating princely states and their subdomains (Phulra, Khanate of Kalat, Dir, etc.) during British Raj as the main power as per his own edits to paint a wrong picture that Pakistan was never really colonized by British and was mainly ruled by these vassals. Willard84 also wants to mention initial and outdated rumors about Godhra train burning as facts even after being told otherwise by Edjohnston and not just the involved editors. You just can't expect him to collaborate without creating enough problems.

    His input on talk pages can be also described as mass bludgeoning just like his statements here, some of them have been already removed by Sandstein.

    I am also noting that his accusations against others of misconduct without giving any evidence constitute personal attacks.

    He is saying in one of his statements here that everyone is allowed to revert but he is now gaming 3RR by not reverting 3 times in 24 hours. Clearly that is how he managed to revert 4 times on Nanga_Parbat In short words this is a clear case of disruptive nationalist POV pushing and WP:CIR. Lorstaking (talk) 02:15, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

    • Willard84's further deceptive approach can be described by his recent statement here on this page, falsely claiming that I "had commented on just an hour earlier" before MapSGV reverted him, (: seems more than 22 hours to me) despite the fact that I had commented on the template against the problematic version in 6 October 2017. Also that he deceptively cherry picked this diff to claim the request was "was quickly shut down", when I was the one to "shut down" the request.
    I must also add that Willard84 was edit warring, bludgeoning and misrepresenting consensus on talk page for restoring problematic version of an indefinitely blocked topic banned sockmaster upon the request from his sock. Months ago, he was doing this same thing when this editor was blocked indefinitely for being WP:NOTHERE. Willard84 attempted to get his topic ban overturned before, despite being the only person to oppose any sanction on him at WP:ANI.
    Willard84 has really left me in no doubt now. He is a case of WP:CIR whose deceptive approach is harmful for this project. Lorstaking (talk) 04:35, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
    Response to Lorstaking by Willard84
    I don’t have time to rebuke rehashed accusations that were already brought up above, but it’s clear what Salem 1620 must have felt like.
    Anyway, I would like to draw attention to the fact that this user, Lorstaking, has been spending an unusual amount of effort to defend User:MapSGV, whose account has been blocked above, by petitioning arbitrator User:Sandstein above to rescind his decision. The accusation that I tried to downplay British rule is exceedingly ridiculous- as a review of the edits would make very clear.
    Lorstaking and MapSGV have an unusually deep relationship that appears to have only developed in the end of February 2018 when MapSGV started making a significant number of edits. He randomly jumped back into editing after a 2 year hiatus on 19 February 2017, and seems to have somehow rapidly developed a deep relationship with Lorstaking, who took the unusual step of writing a lengthy character defense of MapSGV. Lorstaking even opened a case to challenge sanctions against MapSGV, although this was quickly shut down.
    Yet now, Lorstaking finds his way on here to join a witch hunt. Perhaps in retaliation, because MapSGV somehow randomly appeared on the Template:History of Pakistan that Lorstaking had commented on just an hour earlier, and reverted my edit before threatening me with blocks on the talk page. He also seems to be unusually well-versed in Misplaced Pages lingo for someone who apparently just parachuted back in after a making a few dozen edits.Willard84 (talk) 04:09, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Capitals00

    While a number of recent examples of continued disruption have been already provided, I think it is nonetheless worth it to describe the problem to be bigger and continuous. I have observed Willard84’s edits over a long period of time and many of them have proved to be problematic. Here are a few examples of nationalist editing over a broad range of articles:

    These edits show Willard84's problematic editing behavior across many articles. Despite previous warnings and blocks, it has continued and Willard84's own comment indicates that this problem will remain. I would recommend a topic ban on India and Pakistan related articles broadly construed. Capitals00 (talk) 04:55, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Mar4d

    • I will second Kautilya3. These are content disputes, not conduct disputes if it all. In the limited time I have known Willard84, he has been an extremely productive editor and the majority of his contributions, particularly to Pakistan topics, have been outstanding and one of the best I've seen on Misplaced Pages. One only needs to go through his contributions log and his article creations to appreciate this user's presence in this topic area, and his expertise in finding reliable sources to improve under-covered subjects. What I see here is mostly a collection of stale, cherry-picked diffs cobbled together to form a mudslinging contest, by a group of editors who belong to the most controversial topic area on Misplaced Pages which is riddled with content disputes and nationalist edit warring. The timing, content and structure of this ARE is clearly suspect and in extremely bad faith, as I have raised below. Mar4d (talk) 09:24, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Peoples Colony

    I endorse Sandstien , a thorough investigation of several article histories would be needed to identify everybody who needs sanctioning. Singling out Willard84/ Mard will be un fair.

    Result concerning Willard84

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • Both in this case and in the one concerning Mar4d below, it appears to me that we have several areas of problematic editing that are probably best addressed with topic bans for a number of editors. However, in both cases the report mixes genuine potentially problematic conduct such as edit-warring and personal atacks with what seem to be mere content disputes, which means that we don't have a clear-cut case. Moreover, a thorough investigation of several article histories would be needed to identify everybody who needs sanctioning. I don't currently have time for this. As such, I can't currently propose any specific action, which is not to say that action is not necessary. Sandstein 17:27, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

    Mar4d

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Mar4d

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    MBlaze Lightning (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:29, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Mar4d (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

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    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan#Standard_discretionary_sanctions
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    • 20 February 2018 Falsely accusing other editors of POV pushing "in complete mockery of WP:ARBIPA" instead of rebutting their arguments. This is the first of the many ad hominem comments made by this user on the article's talk page.
    • 20 February 2018 Another ad hominem attack directed against the other editor, and this was after he was told to focus on the content.
    • 21 February 2018 Again launches ad hominem personal attacks on MapSVG with unfounded accusations in place of rebutting his arguments.
    • 21 February 2018 Doubles down on the personal attacks, calling MapSVG, among other things, a sock without evidence.
    • 22 February 2018 Deliberately falsified the numbers with a misleading edit summary that he was fixing "per ref" and the "numbers are unsourced", when in actual fact the sources (both in the infobox and in the India–Pakistan military confrontation (2016–present)#2018 section) clearly supported the numbers.
    • And, the explanation that he gave on the talk page — that there were no figures available for 2016 — gave the impression that he didn't even read the refs because the figures from 2016 were already sourced in the infobox (see refs –), and this was discussed already a couple of months ago. He never replied when I quizzed him asking if he had even read the sources.
    • Added objectionable material on Rape in India by adding his opinion, "However, in reality", "further exacerbated the crisis", and using unreliable sources. One editor reverted him for using unreliable sources and he reverted that editor saying that his sources are "RS" and made another controversial edit, another editor reverted him pointing out the use of unreliable sources, he again restored the reverted content and left a firovolous warning on the talk page of the editor that he didn't provided any reason to revert him, after that the discussion on talk page was held, where everyone opposed his edits, and in middle of the discussion he again removed the content that was being supported by the involved editors though required a little bit of improvement that took no time, but unnecessary edit warring from Mar4d clearly making 3 reverts in such sensitive article is concerning.
    • On Kashmir conflict:
    • Reverted King Zebu because he made his edits "without consensus"
    • Reverted Kautilya3 because he made his edits without adhering to "WP:NOCON and WP:BRD"
    • RegentsPark criticized Mar4d that his "reversion does not make sense"
    • Reverted Kautilya3 by disregarding WP:NOCON and WP:BRD himself, the content was being discussed and had no consensus. And, it took him ony two minutes to post a request at WP:RFPP for full page protection of his preferred version, despite that version had no consensus.
    • Quickly reverted the IP's revert of non-consenus controversial content by disregarding the sanctions placed on this page. The first point of the sanctions clearly reads "A second revert without discussion restriction. A second revert of any edit, however minor, that is done without an explanation on the talk page will lead to an immediate block."
    • What's even more concerning is that the content dispute was raised on WP:DRN on 14 February but Mar4d never commented on it, despite being a party of the dispute.
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. See Mar4d's block log
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on .
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Mar4d was adamant in his personal opinion that the Siachen conflict is an "ongoing conflict" and adding a result "is like adding a conclusion on Kashmir conflict", despite multiple reliable sources saying to the contrary that the conflict ended with the ceasefire in 2003. One just has to take a glance at the talk page to notice the outright personal attacks he made on others (including false accusations of socking, SPA, etc), not to mention that he kept engaging in stonewalling, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior, repeating the same personal opinion over and over again, and resorting to ad hominem strategies in place of refuting the arguments of others.

    As per discussion with Sandstein on MapSVG's talk page, Sandstein told that he "will take a look" if a separate report is filed against those who also engaged in misconduct. The report against MapSVG was filed by a user who was already under a SPI investigation and the report resulted in sanctions on MapSGV despite much of the diffs were showing his responses to ad hominem personal attacks and false accusations made by Mar4d, despite objections by multiple editors, and Mar4d's misconduct is much more than just incivility because it also concerns edit warring, treatment of Misplaced Pages as battleground, use of unreliable sources, misrepresentation of sources and lack of collaborative approach to resolve content dispute. For all these factors Mar4d should be sanctioned. —MBL 03:29, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

    • Mar4d, will you stop beating around the bush and tell us how your ad hominem attacks, false accusations of WP:SPA, socking, etc do not constitute personal attacks and why you should not be sanctioned for them?
    He has made a lot of baseless accusations and engaged in deception. I will just rebut a few of them:
    • Mar4d was the one who was actually engaged in "provocative conduct", as evident from the diffs I supplied above. I never defended anyone's "personal attacks", as Mar4d claims. I provided a multitude of reliable sources to back up my claims so did the other editor, MapSVG, unlike Mar4d, who is still WP:NOTGETTINGIT and repeating his personal opinion. I focused all my comments on the content, unlike Mar4d, who was simply resorting to ad hominem strategies.
    • Mar4d is simply deceiving, when he says, "MapSGV's additions which MBL later pursued, apart from constituting tendentious editing, contain basic factual inaccuracies including WP:SYNTH." Either Mar4d do not understand what WP:SYNTH means or he is just deceiving like I said, and if it's the former, he shouldn't be editing in this topic area at all. He is the one who engages in tendentious editing all the time. He really ought to stop making allegations that he cannot substantiate.
    • The version prior to my edit had the death count at "193–201 soldiers killed". Mar4d deliberately changed the numbers, in this edit with a misleading edit summary, to 158. His version contained the following refs in the infobox: "c". These refs clearly supported the death count of 195 (not including the BSF claims). His claim that there were "lack of 2016 figures" is obviously false as demonstrated in the refs. The fact that he did not responded when I quizzed him just strengthens my claim that he didn't even read those refs.
    • Such deception alone is grounds enough for a sanction, in my opinion.
    • And, lastly if Mar4d thinks that I'm engaging in "BATTLEGROUND", "problematic editing" etc then he should file an ARE report and present evidence, and if he fails to do so then he should be sanctioned as soon as possible, because such groundless accusations are completely unacceptable. —MBL 12:41, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
    Statement exceeding 500 words removed as an administrative action. Sandstein 22:40, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    Discussion concerning Mar4d

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Mar4d

    As Willard84 noted above, this is yet another unsubstantiated, half-baked report with absolutely no substance. Note the same recurrent theme of allegations and accusations by a highly-involved editor(s); and the same, usual pattern of misrepresentation, and near-farcical cherry-pickings. What is deeply regrettable is the constant misuse of forums like arbitration, ANI, and other noticeboards, for settling personal vendettas and mudslinging over content disputes, to the extent of a WP:WITCHHUNT. The ultimate objective, it seems, is to drive out experienced, well-meaning editors from a topic area plagued by nationalist edit-warring. MBL has an axe to grind over their multiple content disputes and problematic editing, and in my defence below, I'd like to point out why:

    • The article in question is Siachen conflict, where the infobox summarised the conflict as following: Ceasefire since 2003. This has been the longstanding version of the article as covered by WP:RS, and is predated by three separate discussions on talk (please see this, this, and more particularly, this consensus). It is therefore surprising when MapSGV, an account with barely 80 edits prior to February and no history on the article (yet strangely well-versed with editing norms and Misplaced Pages jargon), turns up and replaces the "ceasefire" on the infobox with "Indian victory". There is no edit summary let alone any explanation. Any admin who is remotely familiar with WP:ARBIPA knows these sanctions are in place to prevent exactly this type of disruption. This edit was later raised on the talk by another editor (as it rightfully should be), and MBL was one of the first editors to defend MapSGV's editing and personal attacks. Since a large part of this complaint actually seems to focus on my interactions with MapSGV, I'd like to point out MapSGV has just been topic banned for 6 months (which was downgraded from a block). Since MBL apparently wasn't satisfied with that sanction, the timing of this A.R.E. is honestly questionable. Please note that so far as my interactions with MapSGV are concerned, I am not the only user, neither the first one, who raised red flags over his editing . The allegation of "unfounded accusations" holds no ground, and should there be any doubt, please do revisit the provocative conduct which actually led to MapSGV being sanctioned in the first place. .
    • I won't get too much into the nitty-gritties of the content dispute here, but the core of the dispute mainly stems from the issue that MapSGV's additions which MBL later pursued, apart from constituting tendentious editing, contain basic factual inaccuracies including WP:SYNTH. The article is on the current, ongoing conflict over the disputed Siachen glacier (part of the Kashmir conflict), whose status quo has been dicated by a ceasefire since 2003. Any editor well-versed in WP:MILHIST knows what a ceasefire means. It is not on the 1984 operation whereby India occupied the glacier (also summarised), which has a separate article under Operation Meghdoot. There's a difference between both.
    • As for this edit, this took into account the existing references supplied, which cited 138 casualties for 2017 and 20 casualties for 2017. The confusion appeared to stem from the (lack of) 2016 figures, as the sources did not appear to indicate how the updated figure of "206–212" was calculated by MBL. Again, this was perfectly reasonable, and I left a query in regards to this.
    • Please refer to this discussion which, unsurprisingly, MBL is not even part of. There is no foul play here. There were consistency and summary issues with the lead of that article as seconded in that discussion, and if you have any doubt, please refer in particular to the comments and sources there left by admin Vanamonde93.
    • Lastly, you really need to read and understand WP:CONSENSUS if you want to edit with the "collaborative approach" you talk about. Because as it stands, you visibly have no idea let alone even a fraction of involvement in the discussion on Kashmir conflict. Perhaps, just perhaps, if you had even bothered to read the talk page, you would've at least been informed enough to know what issues around half a discussion editors there are talking about. And thinly-veiled threats/stunts like this hardly qualify as WP:CON. Mar4d (talk) 09:12, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

    Response to AshLin by Mar4d

    Other comment/s

      • I also concede that the conversation at Talk:Siachen conflict got heated, and out of hand too quickly. Revisiting it, it certainly could have been more toned down and succinct, at least on my part, irrespective of what was being dished out left and right. And sure, if there are outstanding concerns with regards to a user's editing history, I'll try to keep it contained to an WP:SPI or relevant noticeboard. Point taken. Mar4d (talk) 10:53, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
    That being said, there's some tremendous level of cherry picking going on, on behalf of deeply involved parties. Therefore, much of the accusations and diffs here are completely skewed, one-sided, and extremely out of context. I have neither the time nor resources to go back and dig out every "he said, she said" diff. This vain exercise is essentially cherry-picking one edit of a hundred to build a case, but one does not equal a hundred. Mar4d (talk) 11:22, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
    Statement exceeding 500 words removed as an administrative action. Sandstein 22:39, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Capitals00

    His conduct on AfD of Research and Analysis Wing activities in Pakistan has been also concerning where he is tirelessly defending an article that is surely going to get deleted. Some of his comments over there are:

    • "another disposable !vote for the sake of !voting"
    • "too many users voting on this AfD seem to be involved."
    • "you acquainted with all these acronyms in your such short time of editing"

    These comments seems to be unnecessary assumption of bad faith and attempts to dispute the credibility of the editor who made their vote!, and that is also a violation of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. These comments had to be made on content or why the article should be kept or deleted.

    While other recent examples of disruption have been already provided, there are also some examples that date a bit earlier, but still relevant enough to show the long term pattern of nationalistic POV editing.

    • The scenario of censoring result parameter that mentions "Indian victory" (with reliable sources), then making personal attacks on his opponent by calling them an SPA or sock and using his own personal opinion against tons of reliable sources, such disruption is not new or limited to Siachen conflict.
    Just like this he was also removing "Indian victory" on Umayyad campaigns in India and then edit warring the editor while removing the reliably sourced content and not getting consensus for his edits that were likely never going to be accepted.
    On talk page, he made personal attacks against the editor such as, "I haven't asked for a brushdown on WP:NPOV, least of all from an obvious WP:SPA", while there was no incivility from this editor and he was not an SPA either.
    Continued to have WP:LASTWORD on talk page despite disagreement from 3 editors who supported what reliable source state, not personal opinions of Mar4d.
    • Independence Day (India): Edit warring against IPs that were removing the problematic content added by a paid editing sock. I reverted Mar4d and opened a section on talk page, where he made no response. Point is that why he even defends the problematic content that is not actually defensible or he thinks of stopping only when the objections have been made by one of his common opponent?
    • 2016–18 Kashmir unrest: Invoking WP:BANREVERT by restoring problematic edits of a paid editing sock , he reverted Mblaze Lightning who removed the problematic content and then Mar4d restored the same content again without gaining consensus on talk page.

    If Mar4d had been sanctioned for such disruption earlier, I am sure that we wouldn't be having the problems highlighted by Mblaze Lightning above. Capitals00 (talk) 06:01, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement exceeding 500 words removed as an administrative action. Sandstein 22:40, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by WBG

    • And, it took him ony two minutes to post a request at WP:RFPP for full page protection of his preferred version, despite that version had no consensus.--This is definitely non-actionable.See WP:WRONGVERSION.
    • What's even more concerning is that the content dispute was raised on WP:DRN on 14 February but Mar4d never commented on it, despite being a party of the dispute--DRN is voluntary.
    • I don't see how Mar4D's behaviour at the article and corresponding discussion at Talk:Rape in India#Revert or at 2016–18 Kashmir unrest is remotely disruptive/sanctionable.
    • I will agree though, that his conduct at Talk:Siachen conflict could have been somewhat better.
    • At any case, I don't suppport MapSVG's T-ban and will neither support any over-the-top action over here.A reminder to Mar4D to comment on content and not on contributors will be probably sufficient enough.~ Winged Blades 06:56, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by NadirAli

    This looks like the latest effort in MBlaze Lightning's series of spurious reports against opposing editors.

    None of the diffs show any sort of problematic statements from Mar4d, who is one of our encyclopedia's most productive editors. If there are some statements from him about MapSGV's provocative behaviour that should not be a call for alarm because even the administrator Sandstein is suspicious of that account.. I do wonder why users like MBlaze Lightning and Capitals00 are so desperate to support MapSGV and so quick to file spurious reports. Capitals00 left no stone unturned to argue against MapSGV's block and topic ban. Such desperation was in their tone as if it was their own account they were defending. But none of these 2 had any presence on his talkpage before the block.

    • As for the reverts shown on Kashmir conflict there is nothing wrong with them because there is a policy of reverting contentious new edits while they are being discussed on the talkpage according to WP:NOCON.
    • Reverting Kautilya3 here was not a problem because contrary to MBlaze Lightning's claims, the version Mar4d restored did have WP:CONSENSUS from the deeply involved editors. No less than five users wanted it. Only one user, Kautilya3 himself, opposed it and he even refused to explain his objections (He said So, if and when I come to review the proposed paragraphs, these are the principles I will use. When we run into disagreements, I will take them to WP:DRN. For the time being, let me just say that none of the proposed sections is ready for the mainspace). WP:1AM does not overturn the WP:CONSENSUS of everyone else.
    • Reverting this disruptive IP ought be the action of any normal Wikipedian.
    • There was also no 1RR violation. No second reverts within 24 hours.

    I do think a WP:BOOMERANG should be this case's outcome. Owais Khursheed filed an WP:SPI last year which the administrators ignored. The SPI claimed that the filer was using IP socks to harass opposing editors. Now we saw this behavior from an Indian IP again today at Talk:Kashmir conflict. I translated it and reported it To editor CambridgeBayWeather:. I would suggest a full investigation. Enough is really enough.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 07:09, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

    Response to Kautilya3

    • I am not surprised by Kautilya3's comment given the content disputes he has. Pakistani editors are receiving threats from Indian

    IP in the background of WP:WITCHHUNTS such as these involving false accusations against opposing editors by Kautilya3, MBlaze Lightning and Capitals00. A lot is explained, especially when there are suspicions of WP:TAGTEAM and IP socking. No tagteaming from Mar4d who has a long and lengthy involvement in the content dispute at Talk:Kashmir conflict unlike those who turn up to do reverts and deliver one liners in support of Kautilya3's position with hardly any other talkpage input..

    • I took an analysis of Talk:Siachen conflict. I found Mar4d's side of the discussion very constructive. He was very polite and far more interested in sourcing than the other users whose obsession was sneaking in 'Indian victory'. Granted there were a few times he made comments outside of content but that was in response to incendiary comments from MapSGV, MBlaze Lightning and Capitals00.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 00:15, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by TripWire

    Another WP:WITCHHUNT attempt by MBL (see previous one), no wonder Capitals00 has also joined the bandwagon. They have become so desperate in casting WP:ASPERSIONS that they will say anything to put across their point (I dont even know Capitals00). I think there's a dire need to implement WP:BOOMERANG strictly so that such frivolous reports are avoided in the better interest of WP.—TripWire 09:37, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

    Additional comments

    Mar4d shouldn't be compared with MapSGV (even though his banning apparently seems the cause behind this report). Below are some edits by MapSGV (any sensible editor would feel offended at such a tone, a + for Mar4d for not loosing his cool); Mar4d was just trying to bring MapSGV to the table so that the issue(s) could be discussed:

    Statements by wearied passers-by

    Statement by Peoples colony

    Blocked sock. Dennis Brown - 2¢

    Accusations are over the top to the extent that I started laughing immediately. Come on every one behave like community not rivals. I strongly support Mard for many reasons I observed while reading all relevant contributions and edit history

    • Self less Dedication to wiki cause (Like every good wiki contributor)
    • Dealing with difficult discussions
    • Trying best to avoid few hard nut users.

    At any case, I don't support any ban on Mard. I encourage MBlaze Lightning to cheer up and be sport. Peoplescolony (talk) 17:32, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Kautilya3

    There was a time when Mar4d and I used to jointly defend India-Pakistan conflict pages from going toxic. Those days are long gone. Mar4d's fall from grace began with an atrocious article called India and state-sponsored terrorism that he created jointly with another editor. Since then I have been hard put to find any objective edits made by Mar4d. He basically edits along national lines, reverting and name-calling any pro-India editors that he runs into.

    • On the Siachen conflict article, Mar4d was basically battling reliable sources with WP:OR.
    • On the Kashmir conflict article, he is basically tag teaming with NadirAli, who in turn is doing edits for KA$HMIR and Dilpa kaur. All these editors call themselves "deeply involved editors". As MBlaze has pointed out, Mar4d reverted a fairly innocent edit citing WP:NOCON and reinstated a highly problematic edit ignoring WP:NOCON. You can just check the amount of reliably sourced content that has been removed in the second edit with not a single word of explanation.

    Winged Blades of Godric states that participation in WP:DRN is voluntary. That it is. But it would have been polite for Mar4d to mention either on the talk page or at the DRN that he has conceded the points at dispute. Instead, if he just lets the others carry the burden, then I am afraid it reinforces the impresison that he didn't actually dispute anything, he was just WP:TAGTEAMING. Doing so in a highly contentious subject like Kashmir conflict is very problematic.

    I am afraid, at this point, Mar4d is part of the problem rather than solution. Sandstein has drawn parallels between this case and that of Willard84 above. But I don't think there is any comparison. Willard84 is a highly productive editor as I pointed out above. On the other hand, Mar4d has not producing anything worthwhile in the last couple of years. His role seems to be limited to reverting edits and noise-making on the talk pages. A sad fall for a once-great editor. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:07, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Samee

    The report is frivolous with no tangible evidence for anything actionable against a single user. I do not expect good faith from MBlaze Lightning pro tem for their multiple pointless warnings over a single incident of routine patrolling. Ironically, they’re taking a wikibreak to attend their education and don’t have enough time yet they find it at ease to file such reports. Perhaps WP:NOTHERE and in retaliation to MapSGV t-ban.  samee  05:00, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by AshLin

    • Support. Its been years since I have had any interaction with User:Mar4d. I recently returned to editing WP and came across Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Research_and_Analysis_Wing_activities_in_Pakistan. Here I saw him up to his old tricks once again. He attempted to discredit all dissenting voices as can be seen in this diff. After my own vote which was succint, he tried to paint my vote as meaningless for not being verbose via this diff. Mar4d has a long history of edit warring and wikilawyering. He has been blocked 5 times to date. From above it appears that he has got into contentious disputes over seven articles this year alone. He routinely attacks or undermines the editors and their posts in the debate. This is not the one-time behaviour of an editor who gets swept into a dispute through misplaced emotion. This is the behaviour of a serial offender, who intends to get away with whatever he can. This behaviour of his is most commonly seen in the field of India and Pakistan articles. Hence I support a discretionary sanction to topic ban him from India-Pakistan articles. AshLin (talk) 09:24, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by D4iNa4

    Edit warring against consensus or edit warring when your edits are obviously not going to receive any support is also disruptive and Mar4d had been doing that on Rape in India, by showing clear failure to realize that the problems that had been already told to him during reverts and further discussion.

    I have to disagree with above comments by Winged Blades of Godric, because seeking protection for your non-consensus version after edit warring yourself for it is called disruptive editing. Mar4d also violated page restrictions with his 2 reverts by restoring the controversial version that had no consensus.

    Mar4d's conduct as detailed by Capitals00 and AshLin above on an on going AfD is also problematic. He has created a toxic environment on this AfD by assuming bad faith towards other editors. He is still not getting per this comment on AfD that he is attacking other editors.

    @Dennis Brown: Evidently Mar4d was uncivil since his first comment on Talk:Siachen conflict and MapSGV was still committed to "focus on content", but Mar4d continued making personal attacks, along with pushing personal opinion over WP:RS. He was attacking multiple other editors, but MapSGV was supporting what WP:RS say and unlike Mar4d he didn't engaged in original research. Evidence shows that Mar4d was a bigger problem not only for talk page but also for the main article.

    @Dennis Brown: Mar4d also avoids participating in DRN, and it is evidenced by above diffs regarding the incidents that took place in relation to Kashmir conflict, where Mar4d was a party of dispute resolution that spanned its duration from 14 February to 1 March, it was expected that Mar4d would respond there and help resolving the content dispute. It seems that Mar4d was not interested in resolving content dispute but rather keeping his preferred version, which is also apparent with his edit warring against consensus and seeking protection very soon after making the revert.

    And finally, DRN is for tricky content disputes where you have two or more facts heavily supported by multiple WP:RS. Mar4d has no reliable sources for his information, he is only pushing his personal opinion and he is still not getting that we prefer verification of information by reliable sources over his original research.

    The diffs provided above concerning India–Pakistan military confrontation (2016–present), shows source misrepresentation from Mar4d and further establishes that Mar4d cannot be trusted with these controversial and sensitive subjects.

    There are more issues with Mar4d than what has been highlighted here. Mar4d is Wikihounding edits of Störm by disrupting every of his AfD nominations even when most of those AfDs ends up against Mar4d's vote!, Störm had already asked Mar4d before to stop this but Mar4d is not willing to.

    Also after reading these personal attacks from NadirAli, TripWire, Samee, I find it obvious that you can't justify the actions of Mar4d. You can only make personal attacks and false accusations against others in order to defend him.

    How many times Mar4d has been already blocked for his disruption? No one has time to have a watch over him, just to find out how much trouble he is creating. When Mar4d was blocked indefinitely from November 2015 to July 2016, the environment was much better but since he has returned we are only having more problems.

    Given the evidence here, as well as Mar4d's outright rejection of any misconduct and further misrepresentation despite being the root of many problems. When more better editors like Darkness Shines get topic banned indefinitely from this same noticeboard, I am really seeing no reason why Mar4d should not be sanctioned for his long term problems. D4iNa4 (talk) 13:29, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

    Result concerning Mar4d

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • Both in this case and in the one concerning Willard84 above, it appears to me that we have several areas of problematic editing that are probably best addressed with topic bans for a number of editors. However, in both cases the report mixes genuine potentially problematic conduct such as edit-warring and personal attacks with what seem to be mere content disputes, which means that we don't have a clear-cut case. Moreover, a thorough investigation of several article histories would be needed to identify everybody who needs sanctioning. I don't currently have time for this. As such, I can't currently propose any specific action, which is not to say that action is not necessary. Sandstein 17:27, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
    Sock stuff. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:20, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
    Hello admin my blocked friend mapSVG told me edit on his behalf to let all admin know that mard and his friends are isi spy working for pak agencies to spread propaganda against India please unblock mapsvg and block all pak editors on this page. Thanks advance. KarunArjun (talk) 18:03, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
    • I haven't read all the available information, but from what I have, MapSGV is a bigger problem than Mar4d as far as talk page behavior. The core of this is a content dispute which needs to go to WP:DRN. Probably the most effective thing an admin could do is full protect the article and force everyone to DRN, an option I won't rule out. It is either that or a handful of sanctions. I strongly suggest the interested parties simply take this to DRN now before someone else gets ham-fisted with the tools. As usual in this topic area, there are no saints. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:20, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
      • It still needs to go to DRN. I don't think any admin is going to pour over all the available sources to make a decision on sanctions when there isn't a clear consensus or decision on a complicated issue. If you can show that you tried to go to DRN and he refused to participate, or you had an RFC it it went against his version, then we have something to base a decision on. Otherwise, you are asking us to get involved in a content dispute. As for civility, everyone there is a bit uncivil but nothing so extreme I would take action. These are heated topics, a bit of minor push and shove is expected. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:01, 5 March 2018 (UTC)