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This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Russell Brandom (March 6, 2018). "How gun buffs took over Misplaced Pages's AR-15 page". The Verge. Retrieved March 18, 2018. Matthew Walther (November 7, 2017). "The adolescent cult of the AR-15". The Week. Retrieved March 18, 2018. David Brennan (March 7, 2018). "A pro-gun group edited the AR-15 Misplaced Pages page to hide the extent of mass shootings associated with the rifle". Newsweek. Retrieved March 18, 2018. Omer Benjakob (March 18, 2018). "Gun Enthusiasts Are Waging a War of Attrition on Misplaced Pages, and It Looks Like They're Winning". Haaretz. Retrieved March 18, 2018.

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Embarrassing

Is it too much to strive for both accuracy and good grammar?

I know you recently spent a bunch of time on the "Use in crime and mass shootings" section. But I think you can do better.

Here's the text, as of this moment:

Most killings and other gun crimes in the United States are committed with the use of handguns. As a result, AR-15 style rifles are used in a very low overall percentage of gun crimes in the U.S., but they have still played "an oversized role in many of the most high-profile" mass shootings in the United States, and have come to be widely characterized as the weapon of choice for perpetrators of these crimes. AR-15 variants have been used in mass shootings in the United States including the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, 2012 Aurora shooting, 2015 San Bernardino attack, the 2017 Sutherland Springs church shooting, the 2017 Las Vegas shooting, and the 2018 Stoneman Douglas High School shooting.

• Killings are not necessarily gun crimes, nor are they even necessarily crimes. And, while you may have made a killing, it's not likely you've committed a killing. Further, were killings to be committed, more would be committed with the use of forks (to eat diets leading to heart disease) than with the use of handguns.
• It doesn't follow that the very low overall percentage of AR-15s used in gun crimes is a result of most killings and other gun crimes being committed with the use of handguns. Given the number of handguns versus AR-15 style rifles in the US, it would be remarkable if the latter were used in more than a very low overall percentage of gun crimes.
• I think the statistic you're trying to get to here is the one that says AR-15 style rifles are used in relatively few mass shootings. And...

Oh, to hell with it. Why try and fix something that is just going to be screwed up again in a couple of weeks? Cinteotl (talk) 13:24, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree with point 1. Point 2 is valid and can be addressed. Based on material I've read, but don't have at hand, the percentage of firearms homicides committed with handguns vs long guns (AR-15s being a subset of long guns) showed that handguns are disproportionately used in crimes. I also saw a stat from a few years back that compared, I think, semi-auto rifles to handguns in mass shootings. It showed that something like 27% of mass shooting used semi-auto rifles (again I don't recall if it was semi-auto rifles vs assault weapons vs etc). So we could add some clarity there but only by inference. I think it would be be good to add that info but it wouldn't be "AR-15" stats. Are we comfortable adding that sort of material? Point 3 basically is addressed above. Springee (talk) 13:51, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

No detailed stats are published on the prevalence of AR-15 style rifles in crime. They're generally lumped in with shotguns and other long guns. Here are some possibly useful cites:

"Although most crime is not committed with guns, most gun crime is committed with handguns."

"A handgun was used in about 83% of all firearm homicides in 1994, compared to 73% in 2011. Other types of firearms, such as shotguns and rifles, accounted for the remainder of firearm homicides. For nonfatal firearm violence, about 9 in 10 were committed with a handgun, and this remained stable from 1994 to 2011."

"Handguns far outnumber both knives and rifles in American murders."

Weapon types used in mass shootings in the United States between 1982 and 2017

Here's a possibly useful dif from a different article:

"While semi-automatic pistols are by far the most prevalent weapons in US mass shootings, AR-15 style rifles have been used in a number of the deadliest incidents, and have come to be widely characterized in the mainstream media as the weapon of choice for perpetrators of these crimes." (Notice the good grammar?) Cinteotl (talk) 17:26, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

This is well-written and factual, but I would remove the "mainstream media" qualification.

Several reliable sources focus on the AR-15 style rifle's role in recent shootings:

"Four out of the five deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history have taken place since 2012 and all four of those shooters used AR-15 model rifles in their attacks."

"But in all of the latest incidents — Newtown, Conn., in 2012; San Bernardino, Calif., in 2015; Orlando, Fla., in 2016; Las Vegas, 2017; Sutherland Springs, Texas, 2017 — the attackers primarily used AR-15 semiautomatic rifles."

According to WP:SYN we must be careful not to imply or lead readers toward a conclusion that is not stated by reliable sources. For example, we shouldn't compare two statistics unless the sources also make that same comparison. –dlthewave ☎ 18:17, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Regarding this statement Four out of the five deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history have taken place since 2012 and all four of those shooters used AR-15 model rifles in their attacks. - this is a fact strictly speaking, but it is not a neutral statement of a fact. The third deadliest mass shooting in the US was Virginia Tech and it took place in 2007. (This is discussed by academic sources I have cited elsewhere, I can pull them up again if editors are interested.) - this is important since the discussion about the AR in the media has focused heavily on the claim that one can kill more people with an AR than with a handgun (which is a disputed claim based on the full set of facts) - I recently read an article where Zeynep Tufekci was quoted making certain recommendations for the media which included not focusing on the perpetrator, but also not focusing on the weapons. Many articles have been published recently by the media critical of the media's own coverage and the role it plays in these types of attacks. I think the issue of the AR-15 and mass shootings definitely needs to be discussed in this article, but how is still an open question that we will probably be discussing for a while - there are too many sources available to argue for its categorical exclusion, but I think it would be more productive to focus on the academic literature and the full breadth of media sources, including those that have been critical of the media.Seraphim System 18:40, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Dlthewave: The "mainstream media" reference is supported by the citations (which are all mainstream media), and differentiates the claim as being not made by actual subject matter experts (Who are generally careful to distinguish between trademarked AR-15 rifles and AR pattern rifles, and who might point out that, for truly discerning mass shooters, the weapon of choice is the M134.) Cinteotl (talk) 23:06, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

I think it's fair to say are "have come to be widely characterized" without referencing "the mainstream media", because the characterization extends beyond the media. Many of these sources are reporting on the on the connection between generic AR-15s and mass shootings—interviewing experts, going through data, whatever—they aren't just making it up themselves. Perhaps subject matter experts disagree, but that sentence doesn't say anything about what firearms experts believe, it simply talks about what people believe in general. Also, I don't think any firearms expert would claim that a minigun is an effective weapon for a single shooter moving around on foot, unless they were just fucking around. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 01:15, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm indifferent on the "main stream media" part. If someone is comfortable with wp:Citation merging, that long block of citations needs it. As for overall handguns vs AR-15 homicide data, I haven't ever seen that information. We do have the FBI gun crime data ] which is widely reported. The 2016 data shows 7105 murders by handgun vs 374 for rifles of all types (and 3,077 of type unstated). I think this is relevant as AR-15's are clearly a subset of rifles but what subset isn't clear. I've seen several articles that report this data though not always the 2016 data (the latest set). This BBC article shows the data as a chart and cites the FBI data but doesn't offer the raw numbers]. This HuffPo article has a clear spin on the data and isn't using the 2016 data but it does cite previous years data ]. NYT with similar data from around 2012 ]

This article offers stats on rifles vs pistols in mass shootings from 1999-2013 (27% used rifles) ]. The article does talk about AR-15s but the stats are specific to the AR-15 so this brings up a question regarding on or off topic. Personally I would be comfortable citing the FBI data but I'm posting these other articles to avoid claims of OR or SYN. I also would generally agree with people who feel that most of this (and the links I've offered) should be in the various crime articles (linked from this article) vs specifically in this article. My quick searching didn't find an article that compared the % of long guns vs % of homicides by long guns in the US (nor one that was AR-15 specifically). Springee (talk) 02:03, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

As editors, it's not our job to track down and interpret the primary source statistics. We should be citing secondary sources that have analyzed the numbers. There's also no need to distinguish between "media sources" and "subject matter experts". A firearms expert is not necessarily an expert in the field of data analysis. –dlthewave ☎ 03:09, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm not interested in edit warring collapse tags here but I think the collapsed discussion started at least somewhat on topic. It started as at least semi-legitimate criticism, especially given the section title. I think the part I agree with the most is that we probably should expand the non-crime material and leave much of the crime debate and details to linked articles. POV fork was noted. I don't think that applies here since those other topics (gun crime, mass shootings etc) already exist and weren't created as POV forks from this article. In defense of those who haven't fixed it, well I haven't either. ;) Springee (talk) 02:44, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Springee, this kind of manipulation of other editors comments is just the type of "clerking" that was recently warned about, and to do so repeatedly, is indeed edit-warring and disruptive. But just the same, it's probably best we ignore the route this thread has taken, (that's what I'm gonna do). As it is, I struck my initial comment and started a new thread just below, about the addition of legitimate use information, so if you're interested in assisting with this content, please contribute to that thread. Any help would definitely be appreciated. Cheers - WOLFchild 03:55, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Legitimate use content

I think we should consider adding content regarding the intended, legitimate uses for these rifles (target shooting, competitions, prepping/collecting/self-defense, hunting, etc). Any thoughts? Thanks - WOLFchild 15:56, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Sure. Go for it. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 16:01, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Gee thanks. Anyway, here is an article from the New York Times; "‘It’s One of the Greatest Rifles’: Fans of the AR-15 Explain the Gun’s Appeal" (By Jack Healy, 20 FEB 2018), it discusses a 34 year old musician who like to take his AR-15 target shooting, a 13 year old girl who built her first AR-15 at age 9 and takes part in competitions, along with her father, and a 55 year old "extremely liberal" AR-15 owner who used his rifle for 30 years to both hunt and target-shoot. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. - WOLFchild 17:48, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

No need for the sarcasm. AGF. I really meant it. Go ahead and develop this as content. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 18:21, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

And there's no need for your continued condescension. Of course, you could AGF yourself and assume I really was thanking you for your permission to proceed, but really, if you're going to post anything, I'd rather it remain on topic (for the fifth time). - WOLFchild 19:44, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

The best way to move forward would be to propose a specific change, or just go ahead and boldly add it to the article yourself. I don't think anyone is really opposed to this. My only concern is that the sources presented in the previous discussion consist mainly of quotes by AR-15 users, with little to no analysis. –dlthewave ☎ 02:16, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Under the circumstances, I don't think a bold addition is the way to go. I would almost assuredly be reverted, start some kind dispute, maybe even a complaint to AE or ANI, so basically a waste of time. I would prefer if we could first agree on the addition of a legitimate use section, what kind of uses should or should not be included, and what sourcing would be acceptable to support this content, as that has already been an issue with that. As for sourcing, there is a sense of hypocrisy here, and I'm not directing that at anyone specific, nor am I using that as an insult, but as a perceived contradiction. When sources such as TIME, NY Times, CNBC, etc, report on the illegal use of these rifles to kill people, there is seemingly no issue with using those sources to support that information in creating content. Yet, when those very same sources report on the legitimate use of these rifles, all of sudden they're not acceptable? They even support the facts in their reporting by directly going to the legal owners who use ARs for their intended purposes; target shooting, hunting, competitions, etc., etc. Why is that not acceptable? What kind of neutral, detached, expert analysis is required here? And is that same neutral, detached, expert analysis used to support each and every instance of sourcing with the criminal use content? I don't ask that because I'm challenging the criminal use content, I'm simply looking for examples of what some people here are seeking as acceptable sourcing. - WOLFchild 03:29, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

@Springee:, well, someone has hidden our comments above and I don't know if you read mine yet, so I'll again say that if you're interested in helping with the addition of some legitimate use content, it would be appreciated. This would be the place, it's the reason I created this thread, as the one above is somewhat of a mess now. It appears that the idea of such an addition is acceptable. We should determine how many different uses should be included and how much detail. Sourcing seems like it might be an issue, so any input on that would also be appreciated. This goes for anyone else who cares to help out. Cheers - WOLFchild 04:51, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Section order

User:Pharos The hatnote should be above any maintenance tags, which I fixed here per WP:ORDER. You undid this here . Please can you check that your edit is incorrect and redo it as I'm not fixing it again only to get undone by someone maintaining the article, regards Widefox; talk 11:21, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Sure, fixed.--Pharos (talk) 12:56, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Putting crime section after intro

@Waleswatcher: has changed the section order of the article to put the crime section just after the intro. This is a change that doesn't follow the layout of many/most articles that I'm aware of. Per WP:ONUS this change now needs a discussion to stay. Absent consensus for the change it should be reverted. Springee (talk) 02:53, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

What do you mean when you write "...doesn't follow the layout of many/most articles that I'm aware of"? Speaking for myself, I'm aware of many wiki articles with all sorts of layouts. Waleswatcher (talk) 03:00, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Look, you make the change, you get reverted, you seek consensus. That's how this works. I'm going to put it back where it was, since that seems to make the most sense to me. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 03:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, I thought that Waleswatcher gave a good explanation, namely: "Use in crime and mass shootings is obviously more important than the modularity of the rifle, as is born out by the fact that one is discussed in the lede and the other not." --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:10, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

The first problem is simply procedural. The edit was rejected so the next step is come here and get consensus for the change. I disagree with the edit because, as is the case with many such topic, we describe what it is first then talk about impacts and teh like. It becomes a basically chronological order. What is it, where did it come from, how does it work, then how was it used. If the order of the article is going to change lets get a few more eyes on it to discuss things first. BTW, I wouldn't assume that the lead is correct. Looking at it I think the lead could use some real work. Springee (talk) 03:14, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Personally, I think giving an actual description of what the term means what the guns are is most important. The section ordering could probably be improved, but I'd say that terminology, modularity, and comparison to military versions should be higher up than usage in crime and mass shootings, since they provide key facts about what the guns are and how they work, which I think is more fundamental than how they are used. Not sure about the other sections. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 03:18, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

I concur criminal use should follow a description of the rifle's features. The fact that these rifles have been used is less important than the reasons they have been used. I would argue that certain features make AR-15 style rifles more effective than some other firearms, but the current focus on coverage in reliable sources indicates publicity may be a more significant reason. In that case, I suggest Misplaced Pages should carefully consider whether we want to join the sources which may encourage potential mass shooters to select these rifles. We can easily revise the lead section as appropriate to justify revised sequencing of the remainder of the article. Thewellman (talk) 14:09, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

The argument that the lede determines importance and relevance here doesn't make sense logically as this is apparently a piece of work that is under revue in general. Rather, logic would dictate that we then need to assume that the lede requires correction based upon the results of these most recent discussions. As for the importance of modularity, this is a literal feature of the design itself, as such it is significantly more relevant to the rifle itself than events which fall outside of the intended use of the design Syr74 (talk) 15:15, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Is the lede not just a little over the top with all the references to crimes and legality? I believe there is certainly not this much attention given on this content in any books or article of black rifles. This is already covered in the article under its own heading. And I fail to see were that much weight needs to be placed on that content. This content does also have many of its own articles devoted to it. Should it not all just be merely in a see also or perhaps in certain circumstances main article at such and such. Would that not certainly be a compromise. Saying " I'm aware of many wiki articles with all sorts of layouts" is certainly not a defense of the current lede. -72bikers (talk) 03:00, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

I think the references to crime and legality are fine the way they are. But maybe it would make sense to add slightly more material describing the basic function of the rifle, if you're concerned about balance of material. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 00:39, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

To anyone who knows anything about firearms, modularity is the single best reason for this type of gun success. -72bikers (talk) 15:49, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Wafflehouse shooting

@Waleswatcher:, at this point it may be too soon to include that shooting in the article. I would suggest getting some consensus for inclusion (see previous discussions of similar cases). Currently I would oppose inclusion as not notable in context of the article topic. Springee (talk) 16:04, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

I concur with Springee that this event is of trivial significance to the subject of this article. Thewellman (talk) 17:04, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

We should have have some kind of way of determining which shootings are significant enough to bring up, and describe them as representative of many more that have to go unmentioned. Unfortunately, if we included every mass shooting mentioned in a newspaper where the shooter used an AR-15, the entire article would be shootings and we might as well rename it to "list of mass shootings where the killer used an AR-15 style rifle". I think secondary sources, like those that describe the history of AR-15s being used in mass shootings that we already have in the article, would be helpful guidance for determining signifigance, instead of just going by news reports of individual events. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 17:48, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

I fail to see how it is beneficial for the readers to introduce this crime content in the article every time a crime is committed. This heading is now already bigger than or as large as most of the other headings in the article, this in my mind looks like undo weight being placed on this content. To blame a inanimate object instead of addressing the real problem of mental health, as especially this buck-naked deranged crazy has shown and not anything about it in the Mental disorder article, were it clearly belongs. Would it not be better to just have a sentence or two then a see also or main article link to the mass shootings article.72bikers (talk) 17:57, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Mental health is certainly an important and relevant issue, especially for this particular shooting. The fact that said crazy people can easily procure AR-15 rifles and kill many people with them is what makes this event particularly pertinent for an article on that specific type of weapon. Waleswatcher (talk) 18:04, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

@72bikers: The "Use in crime and mass shootings" section is currently 1077 characters. It is the shortest prose-style section in the article. If you think this should be added to Mental disorders then you should go ahead and add it there. –dlthewave ☎ 18:07, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Why would it be "too soon"? It's not as though there is any debate about the facts. As for significance, four people were murdered (and only that few because someone managed to take the gun away) and the event was reported across the world as front-page news. There are certainly hundreds and maybe even thousands of secondary sources. That is way past the threshold of notability per wiki standards. Moreover it was prominently reported in most or all of those reports that the gun was an AR-15 or AR-15 style rifle, which makes it plainly significant for this article (for the same reason the other mass shootings are). Waleswatcher (talk) 18:00, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Were does it end, you can not include every crime commited in this article, as I have mentioned undo weight being placed on this content. And as far as numbers it is just a aturday night in Chicago. Even the smaller town I live in we have had four people found dead in a house killed all at one time and even more instances like this.72bikers (talk) 18:13, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

So you admit this content should be placed in the Mental disorders article but you fail to have the interest to put it there. Really? -72bikers (talk) 18:17, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

As far as size you are just splitting hairs, as visually it looks bigger or as large as most of the other headings. -72bikers (talk) 18:21, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

I realize we have plenty of reliable sources stating that the shooter used an AR-15, and that it was a newsworthy event. But how many newsworthy events have occurred where the shooter used an AR-15? I bet if you dug through news archives you'd find at dozens, perhaps hundreds of shootings of similar coverage over the past few decades where the shooter used an AR-15. It is unfortunately, a too common event in this world. Misplaced Pages isn't a newspaper, and it isn't an indiscriminate dump of information. I don't know if this Waffle House shooting was significant enough to include in this article, it's still in the headlines. Will anyone be talking about this a month from now? A year from now? Maybe we should wait to get some perspective. But even if this turns out to be an event of lasting significance, the larger problem still confronts us: we can't include all of the shootings where people were killed by an AR-15 that received this kind of coverage in this article. Also, 72bikers, whatever is going on with the Mental Disorders article is completely irrelevant to this discussion. It's unfair of you to demand that another edit go work on something. Nobody has to work on any article, and you can't order people to do so. Additionally, whether the weapon was "to blame" is equally irrelevant to the determination of what information belongs on this article. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 18:40, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: this addition seems fine by me. In scope and not undue. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:55, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

...and as "in scope and not undue" as it is, even as brief as it is, will this be the way of things now? Every time there is a shooting involving an AR-15, is it going to be added to this list? Because that's what this is; a list. A repeat, actually, of the list that is already linked twice, in the the lead and in the very same section that all these shootings are being noted in. At some point, this list will outweigh the article (some may feel it already does). Is there a point where even the most ardent of supporters of this content see that this info should be presented another way? - WOLFchild 01:19, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

I largely agree with Wolf here. Where is the limit? The Project Firearms crime suggestion was well considered. We do need some sort of balance between mentioning every time a particular type of gun is used in a crime and the broader readability and encyclopedic value of the addition. The section in question is about the general controversy relating to the use of the AR-15 type rifles in mass shootings. We'll we have three good examples and the rest of the section can focus the boarder topic. That is how articles on the subject (AR-15s in mass shootings) seem to work. In general they do not simply list every example the reporter can find. We shouldn't either. Due weight of course is the basis we should be using here. Well, in context of the rifle does this shooting have any impact? Thus far no. As such it's reasonable to argue it has no weight what so ever. Also in this case no one is arguing that this crime was made particularly deadly because the shooter had an AR-15 vs say a 9mm pistol. Perhaps after a few weeks the narrative will change and this will become a story about the AR-15 the way Sandy Hook was. Currently it isn't. Springee (talk) 01:48, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

I clearly demanded nothing, please do not attempt to put words in my mouth. And mental health is at the root of this kind of crime, so if you are to define the event by a weapon, why not the root of the issue.72bikers (talk) 01:04, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Also your statement "whether the weapon was "to blame" is equally irrelevant to the determination of what information belongs on this article" this would contradict your reasons for inclusion as well as most of the other editors that state it is relevant. So you are saying just because this weapon was simple used in a crime and mentioned in the news it should be in this article even thought this event is well covered elsewhere on Wiki. -72bikers (talk) 01:25, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

• The brief mention of the shooting isn't undue. It's useful to crosslink information like this, and it's common for firearms article to include an extensive Users section because this is often the aspect that receives the most coverage. –dlthewave ☎ 02:39, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Crosslinking doesn't make the material due or undue. The weight with respect to the topic does that. Why does this crime have weight in context of the AR-15 article? The articles I've seen are about the crime, not the AR-15 type rifle. A scan of headlines and articles don't put much emphasis on the AR-15 vs the mental state of the shooter. Springee (talk) 02:44, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Springee, the gun specifically was only briefly mentioned and his mental health by far received more coverage. -72bikers (talk) 13:58, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

That simply isn't true. I just google searched "Waffle house shooting" on google news. The first hit never mentions his mental health, and the part of the story that's about the shooting begins with this: "But Reinking’s father gave the weapons back to his son, who allegedly used one of them — an AR-15 semiautomatic rifle — to open fire at the Waffle House, killing four and wounding four before 29-year-old James Shaw Jr. wrestled the rifle out of his hands, police said." Waleswatcher (talk) 14:09, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Most of that article was talking about the suicide prevention steps the authorities were talking presumably due to his mental state. The AR-15 got passing mention at the very end of the article. This is exactly the sort of incidental mention that doesn't justify inclusion in an article about AR-15s. Springee (talk) 14:21, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

• @Dlthewave: - "The brief mention of the shooting isn't undue." - wadr, you are missing the point here. How many more of these "brief mentions" can this section sustain before it outweighs the the rest of the article? There are going to be more AR-15 incidents in the news, do we just keep adding them indefinitely? Or at some point do we consider a new approach to handling this content, as I asked in the section below? - WOLFchild 18:45, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't find the length of the section concerning, as long as it reflects RS coverage. It's common practice to include long lists in firearms articles such as the Users section of Glock. If it begins to overwhelm the article, we can spin it off as a separate list similar to List of accidents and incidents involving the Boeing 737. –dlthewave ☎ 23:31, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, but "list of users" and "list of mass shootings" are simply not comparable. As for a separate list for all these mass shootings and other criminal use incidents, that is something I suggested weeks ago. Perhaps the "list of mass shootings in the U.S." page should include the type/brand of firearm (s) used in each incident, then that article would only need to be listed once in the "See also" sections of any related firearms articles, which would put a lot of these concerns about undue and weight to rest along with all the ongoing disputes and debates surrounding the addition of this type of content. - WOLFchild 00:23, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Community consensus is to evaluate on a case-by-case basis. Yes, this means we're going to have to keep having these discussions, but that's a normal part of the consensus-building process. The consensus for this particular article is to include a paragraph-style crime/mass shooting section. –dlthewave ☎ 12:13, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Regrettably that RfC was poorly formed and thus left no suggestions for how to view weight. Consensus is nice but previously editors complained that local consensus was dominated by "pro gun" editors who wanted to exclude all mention of crimes. If consensus was all that matters what was the issue with exclusion based on local consensus? What we really need is some sort of consensus that helps people understand how we should interpret the weight of mentions in articles. I feel that the project firearms suggestions were very good and made sense in context of Misplaced Pages policies, guidelines etc. Now the question is still open. Interestingly, the Toronto van crime hasn't been added to the Ryder or Chevy Express Van articles. This is why many editors feel there is a double standard with regards to guns. Springee (talk) 14:01, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

• Comment - TWC, you ask How many more of these "brief mentions" can this section sustain before it outweighs the the rest of the article? But we are not here the debate the future state of the article; we are here to discuss the present state. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:31, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, well... your dictates aside, there are those of us that are concerned about the "present" direction of the editing of some of these articles and the impact it will have on "future" content and balance. In some cases, that 'future' is imminent. (also, it would be nice if you could offer something helpful, at least once, if you are going to continue dogging my posts. this constant personal criticism is accomplishing nothing). - WOLFchild 00:49, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

The question shouldn't be "how many". The question is why are they in the article in the first place? The three very high profile mass shootings make sense as examples in context of the section. Not to dismiss the victims in this case but the WH shooting is small in comparison and so far has had very limited impact. Remember that this is an article about a type of firearm, not about crime so the inclusions need to have weight in context of the article subject. This one doesn't. We should use the Churchill speech rule, mention things in blocks of three. That actually means we could trim some of the others. Either way, at this point there is simply no consensus for inclusion. Springee (talk) 00:54, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

These incidents are covered in the linked article; "Mass shootings in the United States", and with that, I'm still wondering why that page is linked twice in this article? Anyone? - WOLFchild 02:11, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Because it's helpful for readers. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 11:48, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Could you elaborate more and actually specifically explain why there is a need for a redundant link. This generally runs contrary to Wiki policies and only "if it significantly aids the reader". Also were is this consensus you speak of, I see many editors opposed to this content inclusion and there has been no compromise made. There are many articles that not once mention any gun at all or when republished from the Associated Press "WAFFLE HOUSE SHOOTING Suspected shooter was troubled for years" that not once mention any gun, it only talked about his mental state. The full article only had one trivial mention of the gun . And many more that had only one or so trivial mentions, (proof the gun was his), (one brief mention in a write-up ), (one trivial mention when disarmed in a large article), (two trivial mention in a report of mental state) -72bikers (talk) 14:52, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

The manual of style page you're referring to says that generally a link should appear once, but if it's helpful for readers, a link can be repeated at the first occurrence after the lead. That's the situation we have here in the AR-15 style rifle article; "mass shootings in the United States" is linked once in the lead, and once near the bottom of the article. The MOS portion you've quoted regarding "only if it significantly aids the reader" is inapplicable, as that's in reference to stand-alone and embedded lists. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 16:30, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

That's just splitting hairs. This content "mass shootings in the United States" is not what the article is about. This content is covered in many other articles on Wiki. But we are to believe that this link need to out weight the actual article content? You still have not addressed how it specifically helps the reader. Did they forget by the time they read to the bottom of the article? Can you show this occurrence in unrelated article. -72bikers (talk) 01:24, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Agree with AzureCitizen, the repeat link is appropriate to include in both the lead and section. Readers often want to continue on to a more in-depth article after reading a section, and I personally find it useful to have the extra link in the same section as the related content. I'm not following the "out weigh the actual article content" concern as the link is in fact part of the article content and does not add any extra length or weight. –dlthewave ☎ 01:59, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Q. How many more of these "brief mentions" can this section sustain before it outweighs the the rest of the article?

A. When the weight of the "brief mentions" section gets too heavy, just make a WP:summary style split to a sub-article on Use of AR-15 style rifles in crime and mass shootings, and then summarize the most important "brief mentions" here under a {{main article}} hatnote. This isn't rocket science. wbm1058 (talk) 03:52, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

LOL... You make it sound sooo easy. If only it were so. 1) I already suggested a split, ages ago. 2) the question still stands; at what point has the article been 'weighed down' enough to require a split? - WOLFchild 04:01, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Certainly what's there now isn't enough... you have to have more than a stub's worth to justify a split. wbm1058 (talk) 04:07, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that's a given, but it is also possible to have less than "a stub's worth" of content place undue weight on an article. (hence some of the on-going debates on these pages). So, really, there is no quick'n'easy answer... But hopefully a solution will be found soon. - WOLFchild 04:15, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

I agree with the split, many articles start small and sadly I think the editors here will have more than enough content for inclusion, especially with the bar set so low. -72bikers (talk) 16:55, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

I Still see no valid answers for the superfluous link. This article is not about mass killings, that information is just a side note (covered in many other articles).

Also by including any mention of these types of guns in any crime your side sees fit to (especially when the weapon used is just a side not and more focus is on mental health) and not compromising in any way, is not how consensus works. Regardless of how many time you state there is a consensus or that it is not undue weight does not make your claimes factual. -72bikers (talk) 16:27, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

I've been convinced that it's fine to add this material by the argument that, if we do get to the point where there is a massive unwieldy list, it can be spun off into its own list article. As for right now, the section is still just a tiny part of the larger article. Even if the inclusion principles are unclear in the long run, it simply isn't a problem for the article as it is right now. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 21:01, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

New approach needed

• This is exactly what I predicted would happen back in February after the Stoneman shooting when there was a sudden push to have firearms articles include criminal use content. Disputes, disruption, and articles out of balance in violation of WP neutrality policies. We tried to establish a project-wide guideline, but instead had that huge train-wreck of an RfC that left each and every event to be decided by local consensus on every single related article. In other words, a waste of time, leading to more conflict, leading to more disruption, leading to more wasted time. And none of this is leading to any kind of improvement for this project. We need to develop a more effective and consistent method to handle this type of content. This constant bickering is getting us no where, and will likely end up in another sensationalized and disingenuous op-ed by some so called 'journalist'. jmho - WOLFchild 21:20, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

I think literally 5 hours after a discussion has started is a little early to throw up our hands and say "this constant bickering is getting us nowhere". So instead of discussing the discussion, perhaps we should stick to discussing the content of the article. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 22:29, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Go right ahead, no one is stopping you from 'discussing' said content. But even if you can come to some kind of agreement here, it still won't have any affect on future disputes on this, or any other related article, regarding this type of content. We need a better guideline in place that is project-wide, or this will just go on and on... - WOLFchild 22:39, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Then go ahead and make a project-wide policy. That doesn't need to be on this talk page. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 22:59, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, not a single word of that reply is in any way helpful. How about I see if anyone else has a response that is perhaps more collegial and on topic...? (that is a rhetorical question, there is no need for a response) Thank you and have a nice day. - WOLFchild 23:19, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

So after you wrongly claim I am telling people what to do "It's unfair of you to demand that another edit go work on something" you go on to do juts that to Wolf. Really? -72bikers (talk) 01:30, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

That's ok, 72b, I'm getting used to it. Anyway, as I said, hopefully we can find a new approach to dealing with this content. I see another RfC has been started at NPOV, this time discussing weight. On that particular point, I look forward to Springee's reply there, as he has repeatedly posted some excellent comments about that very issue, though they have been somewhat ignored. Hopefully with his and some other's input, a solution can be found so that we can indeed move forward with a new approach. - WOLFchild 05:45, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

I haven't been following the discussions or the article edit history very closely... just watching this from a distance. I'm inclined to think that the rough consensus is for what we have... a short two-paragraph section listing several major mass-shootings. Those who feel this doesn't take coverage of mass shootings to a level of sufficient detail, and want more comprehensive coverage of lesser incidents that nevertheless received major coverage in the National media, should probably start a new article Use of AR-15 style rifles in crime and mass shootings that focused on this one topic. wbm1058 (talk) 13:22, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

That had already been suggested, several weeks ago (and more than once). With an article like that, all the "criminal use" sections could be removed and instead that page could be linked in the 'see also' sections. It would probably put an end to all the disputes and disruption and resolve any undue/weight issues. But so far it hasn't happened. - WOLFchild 20:29, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

That wouldn't be acceptable in my view, but I'd be OK with the section roughly as it is now (without the Waffle House shooting), with a link in the section to the Use of AR-15 style rifles in crime and mass shootings main article with more details. Something like https://en.wikipedia.org/Entropy#Classical_thermodynamics. Waleswatcher (talk) 20:54, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

all the "criminal use" sections could be removed and instead that page could be linked in the 'see also' sections ... No, no no, that would be a violation of WP:Summary style – the child article holding more detailed information on a subtopic should be summarized in the parent article, that's standard encyclopedic procedure. The goal shouldn't be to segregate content into separate compartments (orphans) that aren't interconnected. – wbm1058 (talk) 23:01, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, yes yes...? How can you "violate" something that is only a guideline, and one that expressly states that "exceptions may apply"...? No, we are not exclusively beholden to that. We need to find a way to deal with this content that will (hopefully) put these constant disputes and disruption to rest, and if we need to toss some guidelines right out the window to so, then so be it. This is past the point of ridiculous and it's not getting any better. - WOLFchild 23:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Throwing out guidelines to suit your preference in a controversial edit or article is not the way to go. The guidelines are there precisely to help make decisions when there are controversies. Waleswatcher (talk) 00:33, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Either point out exactly where I wrote that we should throw out guidelines to "suit personal preference" or I'll take it as your tacit admission that you have not one clue about what you're commenting on here. Please read a discussion before commenting on it.

That said, if adhering to a particular guideline, or even a policy, only serves to create or prolong any controversy, dispute and/or disruption on this project, then clearly WP:IAR should be considered, if not a review and rewrite of said policy or guideline. This of course would be an undertaking of the community, not just me on my own, so your accusation is clearly misplaced. - WOLFchild 01:14, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Just above, you wrote: "We need to find a way to deal with this content that will (hopefully) put these constant disputes and disruption to rest, and if we need to toss some guidelines right out the window to so, then so be it." Again, the guidelines are there precisely to help make decisions when there are controversies. Waleswatcher (talk) 01:36, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Yup, I know what I wrote, and I know it didn't include anything about "my personal preferences", (so I guess you're backing off that?) I also wrote; if adhering to a particular guideline, or even a policy, only serves to create or prolong any controversy, dispute and/or disruption on this project, then clearly WP:IAR should be considered, if not a review and rewrite of said policy or guideline. (aka 'throwing out'). Despite all the guidelines we have in place, there have been protracted disputes and disruption involving numerous editors and multiple articles. Despite all the discussion, ad infinitum and RfCs, both large and small, somewhat effective and ineffective, and numerous guidelines being cited ad nauseum, the disputes continue. There is essentially two parties dug in on either side of a gap and we need to find a way to close that gap. - WOLFchild 02:00, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Discussion at NPOVN

Such discussion is happening at Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Guns,_crime,_and_due_weight:_Rough_draft. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:32, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Gratuitous content

Discussion notice

A discussion related to this topic is taking place at NPOV Noticeboard. –dlthewave ☎ 02:32, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

AR-15 style weapons are assault weapons

This term is legally defined, and AR-15-style rifles, unless heavily modified, constitute assault rifles. Failure to mention this is a violation of NPOV. --KRAPENHOEFFER! TALK 21:40, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Two very similar edits were made.

{tq|An AR-15 style rifle is a lightweight semi-automatic assault rifle}

{tq|An AR-15 style rifle is a lightweight semi-automatic assault weapon}

"Assault weapon" (#2) is technically accurate, "assault rifle" (#1) is not. –dlthewave ☎ 21:52, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Numerous secondary sources refer to the AR-15 style rifle as an "assault rifle". The only opposition to use of the term is politically motivated. Assault weapons can be rifles, pistols or shotguns. As the AR-15 is a rifle, the term "assault rifle" is entirely correct, regardless anti-gun control organizations/individuals state. --KRAPENHOEFFER! TALK 21:59, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

By way of further answer, the term "assault rifle" was coined by the gun industry, so it's use is non-controversial

The popularly held idea that the term 'assault weapon' originated with anti-gun activists is wrong. The term was first adopted by manufacturers, wholesalers, importers and dealers in the American firearms industry to stimulate sales of certain firearms that did not have an appearance that was familiar to many firearms owners. The manufacturers and gun writers of the day needed a catchy name to identify this new type of gun.

--KRAPENHOEFFER! TALK 22:15, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

References

1. Peterson, Phillip (2008). Gun Digest Buyer's Guide to Assault Weapons. Iola, Wisconsin: Gun Digest Books. p. 11. ISBN 978-0896896802.

• This article has been without "assault" anything in the lead for quite some. It was just now arbitrarily added, reverted and now Krapenhoeffer is edit-warring to retain it without any kind of consensus to do so. It should be removed per QUO until this is decided one way or the other. As the page is under DS, I suggest Krapenhoeffer self-revert for now while discussion takes place. - WOLFchild 22:15, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
  • It was added correctly, and I will not self-revert. --KRAPENHOEFFER! TALK 22:16, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Look at assault rifle. The very first line says An assault rifle is a selective-fire rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine. This is the traditional definition that's been in place for over 50 years. Civilian AR-15s are not selective fire. They do not have fully-automatic capabilities. "Assault rifle" is primarily a technical description, and civilian AR-15s do not meet the definition. "Assault weapon" is a legal description in the US, that many, if no most, AR-15s do meet. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 22:19, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

that definition is an extremely narrow one adopted by a single military decades ago. The modern scholarly consensus is that the AR-15 is an assault rifle regardless of what muzzle device or grip it possesses. --KRAPENHOEFFER! TALK 22:22, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: I think the addition is fine; the rifle is commonly and consistently referred to in secondary sources as an "assault rifle". We follow the sources. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:20, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Secondary sources can be wrong. Per WP:label we should avoid provocative or disputed labels. Assult rifle by widely held definition is select fire and thus not the subject of this article. Assult weapon is a nebulous political term who's definition varries by various laws. Some AR-15 type rifles were covered by the last federal legal definition. Others were not hence it's a problematic label. The original description avoids these issues. Your edits were made over the objection of two editors and at this point you are in violation of the edit warring guidelines. I would suggest you self revert. Springee (talk) 22:23, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

It's only disputed by ideologues, and as such is irrelevant from an NPOV perspective. This is the same situation as dealing with creationists. --KRAPENHOEFFER! TALK 22:26, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

If we put assault rifle in the lead, and someone clicks on that link, they will find an article about rifles with fully-automatic capabilities. This article is about a rifle without fully-automatic capabilities. We would be misinforming our readers to call this weapon an assault rifle. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 22:24, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

That's why I changed it to be semi-automatic, linking to semi-automatic rifle, followed by assault weapon, linking to assault weapon. --KRAPENHOEFFER! TALK 22:26, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Read Assault_rifle#Characteristics. There are no semi-automatic assault rifles. And linking semi-automatic before it doesn't magically make that link change meaning to "an assault rifle, except not quite, because it's semi-automatic instead". All it does is contradict itself. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 22:29, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

His assertion seems to be coming from this one source from what appears to be a very opinionated author. There are many sources that would contradict his assertions. Here is a definition from Oxford Dictionaries and here from the Encyclopædia Britannica . There are a plethora more that would all agree with this.

Editor KRAPENHOEFFER! also seem to be ill-informed as to the term, it comes from World War 2 and the German StG 44. The designation translates to "Assault rifle, model 1944", thereby introducing the term "assault rifle". The gun industry did not start this and if they did it would be here -72bikers (talk) 22:57, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

It's from the Sturmgewehr 44, not the MP40. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 23:51, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Correct it was just a mistake that I was just about to fix, but thanks. Cheers-72bikers (talk) 23:53, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Irrelevant. The inclusion of fully-automatic fire as an "essential feature" of an assault rifle is not insisted upon by any military in 2018. The adoption of the M16A2 by the US Army makes the Army's insistence that an assault rifle is necessarily fully-automatic deprecated. Furthermore, the various militaries of the world emphasize the use of semi-automatic fire with use of assault rifles, and not automatic fire. This isn't to say that AR-varients with modifications can't be shoehorned into other roles (the HK416's use as both a squad automatic rifle and DMR in the USMC come to mind). If we use a definition of assault rifle based on military doctrine (which we should - and it's what the entire world that isn't the US gun control debate uses), any semi-automatic rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine counts. --KRAPENHOEFFER! TALK 14:48, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

This isn't hard. One of the essential features of an assault rifle is select fire. Your previous comment about coined by the gun industry is wrong for two reasons, first it's factually wrong. Second, RS says we should when possible follow the experts in the field. Can you find an example of an expert in firearms using "assault rifle" to describe a semi-automatic rifle? The sources getting the term wrong are the ones who aren't experts in the field. Springee (talk) 14:53, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

I will jump in and confirm what others are saying. Assault rifle is select fire and assault weapon is semi-automatic only. Some examples Mother Jones, CNBC,and Washington Post. There is a fine line between the two but an important one. PackMecEng (talk) 15:27, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

I could not have said it better Springee. His logic is flawed, to ignore the experts and replace with political ideology. He has been shown on many fronts his assertion are just plainly wrong. He has failed to contradict any of the point brought up and has just gone on to make more unsupported assertions. -72bikers (talk) 15:46, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

You are again wrong basing your assertion on political ideology and ignoring dictionaries, encyclopedias, and experts in the field. -72bikers (talk) 15:53, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Webster's dictionary says semiautomatics are assault rifles. This isn't ideology, this is facts. --KRAPENHOEFFER! TALK 20:42, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's lead article on the subject, assault rifle, continues to use the factual historical and traditional definition, i.e., a select-fire rifle (as opposed to semi-automatic only). Hundreds of Misplaced Pages articles link to that article. If this is something you wish to pursue, you really need to propose the change at Talk:Assault rifle and gain community consensus to change the main article (probably through an RfC), which would then propagate outwards. For good reasons, I am skeptical that the community would break with the longstanding technical definition that to be an assault rifle it must be capable of selective fire, but you are free to try. I hope you can see that further arguments here on this article's Talk Page are likely just a waste of everyone's time. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 21:09, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

The Webster definition was charged last month and has caused a bit of controversy. ] Misplaced Pages says we should give experts in the field but more weight when there are questions like this. Do any experts share the recent revised Webster definition? Springee (talk) 23:02, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

A motor vehicle parallel

A recent comment here expressed support for identifying specific types of motor vehicles associated with destructive misuse. There may be some misunderstanding about the breadth of devices being described as AR-15s or AR-15 style in the popular press. Since a relatively small percentage of readers seem familiar with these firearms, it may help to describe a motor vehicle parallel with which more people have first-hand experience: In the 1940s, the United States military developed an innovative motor vehicle known as the Jeep. Civilian ownership of Jeeps became popular after the war, and numerous manufacturers offered similar vehicles. Like AR-15, the term jeep was used by the uninformed to describe all manner of civilian 4-wheel drive production despite the name being licensed to a single manufacturer. Today what the motor vehicle industry calls sport utility vehicles (SUVs) are widely recognized as a significant percentage of production; but there seems reluctance to accept the firearms industry name of modern sporting rifles for the spectrum of models comprising a similarly high percentage of modern civilian firearms production. SUVs have already been criticized for poor fuel economy, and the deadly results to pedestrians struck by bullbars. The high ground clearance causes both increased injury risks to sedan passengers during collisions, and poor visibility while backing which has killed a number of children. With a few more high profile mass killings like the 2015 San Bernardino attack other jurisdictions may join Florence, Paris, and Vienna in debating whether there is any legitimate reason for civilian ownership of these military style vehicles. The Misplaced Pages Criticism of sport utility vehicles article has attempted to identify the specific characteristics of the various SUVs associated with these problems. By contrast, a simple statement that an SUV was involved in any specific event would inappropriately paint the entire spectrum of SUVs with potentially unwarranted blame. I hope sources for the criminal use section of this article (or some related criticism article) can be similarly specific about the firearm features considered significant in that event to avoid implicating models without those features. Thewellman (talk) 04:07, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Weapon of choice in the media

@AzureCitizen, Waleswatcher, and Kevinp2: We recently had a bit of a back and fourth about a small change to the article originating with this edit ]. AzureCitizen is correct that with this double back and forth we need to go to the talk page next. I agree with Kevinp2's edit. Reading through the sources, is the "weapon of choice" claim something the reporters are quoting from an interviewed source or is it a statement/claim the reporter has put forth. It appears to me this is something the reporters have put forth as part of their articles which would mean we should make it clear that this is a claim made in the media vs say from the FBI. Thus adding something like "in the media" or "by the media" makes it clear where the claim originates. Springee (talk) 16:17, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for moving the conversation here. I would be fine with adding the words "in the media" instead of "by the media." The latter has sourcing and interpretation problems while the former is accurate and indisputable. Will wait for others to comment. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 16:30, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

I prefer "in" as well. I agree with waiting for others. Let's wait a week and see what input we get. Springee (talk) 16:33, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

It's just the opposite. The sentence in question has 8 sources attached to the end, do any of them confirm that it was an interviewed/expert source, such as the FBI, being quoted, and that this isn't just editorializing by any members of the media? If there is no quote or confirmation, then we can't assume it's from from an interviewed/expert source as that would be wp:or, and therefore "by the media" is more appropriate. "In the media" is subject to interpretation, and can lead readers to think/believe the quote may be from an interviewed/expert source when it appears we have no confirmation of that. (But if we do, this is all moot. I just haven't gone thru all the refs). - WOLFchild 16:56, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Reliable sources are not bound by Wiki policy, we can use OR which they've performed. –dlthewave ☎ 17:18, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Either version strikes me as both unnecessary and a violation of NPOV. For anything to be "widely characterized" it more or less must be reported in the media. Therefore to add "by the media" (or "in the media", which at least is more accurate) is not necessary (especially since the statement is immediately followed by references to said media). The NPOV concern comes because in the context of this article's subject, "the media" have often been demonized, declared the enemy of America, etc., so adding this unnecessary phrase sounds like an attempt to discredit or undermine what is actually just a simple statement of fact. Waleswatcher (talk) 17:08, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

So who is making the characterization? Do any of the articles cite a source for the claim? If not it's an opinion shared in the media in which case it should be noted as such. I think the NPOV claim is a stretch in this case. Springee (talk) 17:17, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

who is making the characterization? - irrelevant. Again, the only way something can be "widely characterized" is for it to be reported in the media, regardless of whether such reports attribute the sentiment to some specific individual. In fact, "widely characterized" precisely means it's not just a few individuals making this claim. Since we cannot quote more than a few individuals, it's an impossible standard for this article to establish the truth of that statement in any way other than giving references to media articles. Anyway, I just added another reference that is not exactly media (it's a press release from an organization) and that attributes precisely this phrase to someone specific. Probably I can find more, but no more are needed.Waleswatcher (talk) 17:24, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (@Waleswatcher) Clarifying whether a quote is from a media source or the media itself is important, even crucial in some cases, regardless of "how it makes the media look". If we stick to facts, then if something the media has done that may reflect on them in a certain light, is not because of our actions, but their's. Take this "weapon of choice" quote for example. We post that then attach a source, (eg: CNN, NYT, etc,) then that gives the impression that whomever the media outlet is using as source material (eg: the FBI, the police, etc.) is responsible for that quote. But if it was the reporter or journalist themselves that added that quote to the report of their own accord, that is distinction we need to make. And, quite frankly, I don't see how that in any way "demonizes" the media, but neither do I see how it's our responsibility to safeguard the media's reputation. Like I said, as long as we stick to facts, then how it makes the media look is their problem, not ours. - WOLFchild 17:32, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Who is making the claim isn't at all irrelevant. Your new addition says that a gun control group makes the claim. OK. So we have new media opinion and anti-gun group. That doesn't make your case stronger. Do we have actual criminologist or other experts making the claim? Springee (talk) 17:33, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

That is incoherent. Showing that yet another report (and an individual) made this statement obviously strengthens the claim that AR-15s are "widely characterized" this way; to assert otherwise is simply nonsense. And how is an official at a gun control organization not an expert on gun use in crimes? And how is the New York Times "new media"? You're not making any sense. Waleswatcher (talk) 19:04, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

• This has been discussed several times before but the consensus hasn't stuck. I think it's time to get more eyes with either an RfC or WP:RSN posting. –dlthewave ☎ 19:37, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

By forcing one groups opinions and failing to compromise is not how a consensus is made.

The rifle being the U.S. rifle of choice and thereby relatively cheap and readily available would stand to be the reason of choice than some redeeming factor. By not stating this clarification that is made by the media you would promote a distinction that is just not true. The source outside the media that made these comments "with the AR-15 used this morning, a weapon of war that now happens to be the weapon of choice in far too many mass killings in America." This source is filled with inaccuracies and is clearly just restating the medias comments simple because they support there views. The source is not a independently neutral or even a expert in the field of firearms or of any law enforcement agency.

I would like to point out there is now a movement by student in support of fire arms now like the opposition against. I state this to remind all of a need to find balance.

I truly believe no editor here is looking to exclude these horrid act form Misplaced Pages. But clearly there is a time and place for this content and by attempting to out weigh article content or introducing overly bias views is clearly not conducive to enriching Wiki articles.

I would like to post my support of "by". -72bikers (talk) 15:31, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Expert commentary

• Comment: the claim does not originate from the media. For example:

Pete Blair, executive director of Texas State University’s Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center -- which studies mass murder -- echoed Hazen's comments. “The AR is the most popular rifle platform in the U.S.,” Blair said. The fact that so many mass shooters are using the same gun is what sociologists call “social proof,” he added.

More at: Why AR-15-style rifles are popular among mass shooters, ABC News. Thus this edit should stand. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:33, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Combine

If no one objects I would like to combine the ten references for the media distinction, so that it does not hamper the reading of the content. -72bikers (talk) 15:47, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• Start-Class Firearms articles
• Mid-importance Firearms articles
• WikiProject Firearms articles
• Start-Class sports articles
• WikiProject Sports articles
• Start-Class United States articles
• Low-importance United States articles
• Start-Class United States articles of Low-importance
• WikiProject United States articles
• Unassessed politics articles
• Unknown-importance politics articles
• Unassessed gun politics articles
• Unknown-importance gun politics articles
• Gun politics task force articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press