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Dinosaurs This disambiguation page is within the scope of WikiProject Dinosaurs, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of dinosaurs and dinosaur-related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DinosaursWikipedia:WikiProject DinosaursTemplate:WikiProject Dinosaursdinosaurs Cryptozoology This disambiguation page is within the scope of WikiProject Cryptozoology, an attempt to improve coverage of the pseudoscience and subculture of cryptozoology on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the disambiguation page attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.CryptozoologyWikipedia:WikiProject CryptozoologyTemplate:WikiProject CryptozoologyCryptids Skepticism This disambiguation page is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism

This article was nominated for deletion on 4 April 2008. The result of the discussion was Keep in some useful format.

Archives

2005 - 2009

65 or 66 million years ago

The article seems to use both times for the K-P extinction event. Which is right? Darmot and gilad (talk) 15:07, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Citations missing

I've added a citations missing template at the top of the page. Most of this content is missing reliable sources, and has apparently been missing them for some time. This article could be useful, if most any of the content was verifiable. Please help improve if you can. Jess _cs 17:19, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

New entry---agree or disagree

Shouldn't Nguma-monene be on this list? Yes, I know it's technically a lizard, but its description is tantilizingly close to Spinosaurus (almost the right country too). Maybe some other crypto-fanatics can comply---Crimsonraptor (talk) 23:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Personally it sounds more like a Dimetrodon because that actually looks like a lizard, the Nguma Monene is described as a Quadruped and not a Biped like Spinosaurus and relatives were. if it is indeed a Spinosaur it sounds more like the fictional Avarusaurus from the 2005 remake of King kong.--50.195.51.9 (talk) 16:14, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I looked over it for myself, and i say that the Nguma-monene should be dismissed as a hoax. its said to be 195 feet long! yes, they are saying its a predator bigger than Argentinosaurus. fake.--50.195.51.9 (talk) 16:25, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

No matter how fictitious or snakish the creature was described, it belongs to this list as long as the creationist/cryptozoology websites and sources kept claiming and calling it a dinosaur which they do.Kevinjonpalma11 (talk) 13:00, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Bias Evident

As is the etiquette of most encyclopaedias and sources that provide information on a variety of subjects from a neutral perspective, Misplaced Pages should be free of bias as much as it is factually possible. While I in no way advocate or support the arguments given by those who make the claims for the theory of extant dinosaurs, the way in which the arguments against it are presented show clear bias. E.g: "There are problems with the internal logic of claims about dinosaur survival." (Line 1, Paragraph 1, Arguments Against Dinosaur Survival); "However, it is not clear that any dinosaurs were ectothermic, and indeed the current scientific consensus is for high metabolic rates." (An argument against the extant dinosaur theory, in the section that is devoted to providing alleged evidence for it? Line 2, Paragraph 1, Arguments For Dinosaur Survival) While I understand that there is a probability for errors in the allegations and assertations provided by those for the claim, I am sure it would be more appropriate to present facts in a neutral light, allowing the reader to conclude based on information provided, and not from a biased perspective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.208.210.109 (talk) 19:33, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, I myself actually do believe in the continued survival of these creatures. That video footage of Mokele-mbembe from a few years back looked pretty damn convincing to me. The article sounds a bit too doubtful about the topic, when it is debatable to some extent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.130.109 (talk) 21:51, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I also agree, that this article approaches its subject from a way too biased perspective. Personally, I have come to the conclusion that some non-avian dinosaurs have, indeed, survived to the present-day. However, I am aware that many other people disagree with my opinion, and I respect that. However, I also feel that Misplaced Pages should definitely try to be as neutral as possible, and especially in articles, such as this one, that deal with controversial topics, and where different editors tend to have many very different opinions, about the subject matter, in question. Therefore, I, too, think that this article should definitely be much more neutral. SuperHero2111 (talk) 22:04, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

At best living Dinosaurs are Hoaxes or Creationist Propaganda, this entire page is Mass speculation going by very skimpy information, i Believe that i can say with some confidence that there is no possibility for non-avian dinosaurs surviving into the Present, even if they did it would not be a Spinosaurus or an Undescribed Sauropod, it would probably be a Troodon or a Leptoceratops. --50.195.51.9 (talk) 16:04, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Arica Monster added without citation?

i have never heard of the Arica monster, considering the the variety of these reports it feels like that the Arica monster was added in without citation, i did not see anything referring to it in the sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.195.51.9 (talk) 16:58, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Is a Hoax worthy of a mention?

the Kasai rex is a proven hoax and since it no longer has a page anymore i don't think it should be mentioned.

Agreed, I've removed it and two others. Dougweller (talk) 18:37, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

What should we do about the Weasel Words?

the page does not give an example of Cryptozoologists who say that living dinosaurs are possible. should we find sources or remove it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.195.51.9 (talk) 18:55, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Worthy of Mention?

i have finally found something about the Arica Monster, it was mentioned on a Cryptozoology show called Destination truth, but i still can't find anything else about it, leading me to think its a hoax. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.195.51.9 (talk) 16:27, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, there were several sightings of it in Northern Chile back in 2004. I'll try to find a newspaper article about the sightings. SuperHero2111 (talk) 23:59, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Here is a link: http://www.ufoinfo.com/news/pampaacha.shtml SuperHero2111 (talk) 00:03, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

beware, Possible WikiKing.

the kasai rex was re-added, i have already removed it but be on your guard and be ready to revert things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.195.51.9 (talk) 18:41, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

said person who re-added the Kasai Rex was blocked 50.195.51.9 (talk) 18:55, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Cryptozoology section

Following up on discussion at Talk:Emela-ntouka#Simon_and_Schuster and Talk:Ngoubou#The Times, a look at the "cryptozoology" section on this page reveals some issues. For one, most of the citations make no mention of cryptozoology whatsoever, and the few that do are a hard fail on WP:RS (Loren Coleman, Roy Mackal). Taken together, this section appears to be a textbook example of WP:SYNTH. Additionally, since this is an obscure pseudoscience we're talking about, this also appears to be standard undue emphasis on fringe material. Remove section? (@Tronvillain:, @Jytdog:, @Justlettersandnumbers:). :bloodofox: (talk) 16:45, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

(@Katolophyromai:, who has dealt with similar stuff while rewriting dragon) :bloodofox: (talk) 16:47, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Looks like unsupported fringe, propped up with citations to related science, but without the cryptozoology/creationist section, is there really a point to the article? Seems like you could essentially just have a disambiguation page. --tronvillain (talk) 16:58, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

You also might want to check out Mbielu-Mbielu-Mbielu. --tronvillain (talk) 17:26, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

But really, do we need much than the first paragraph of the Crypto section? It seems to say the same thing over and over. And if you add a link from something like Pseudoscience: A Critical Encyclopedia that says on page 104 what living dinosaurs are to the crypto-bunk people, you'd have all that you need.

You could merge it all into a single paragraph like:

• In cryptozoology, a "living dinosaur" is any legendary or folkloric creature that resembles the dinosaurs, which cryptozoologists allege are dinosaurs that have survived into modern times. Some creationists claim that archaeological evidence supports the existence of living dinosaurs, and that several archaeological artifacts, old writings, cave paintings and ancient folklores were based on the idea that man and dinosaurs lived beside each other. Excluding a few controversial claims, scientists agree that all non-avian dinosaurs became extinct at the K–Pg boundary or, at most, a few hundred thousand years after, in the early Paleocene. There is no evidence that any non-avian dinosaurs survived beyond the Cretaceous, and there are strong arguments against the survival of populations of large dinosaurs.

Perhaps you could add a section on something like the Tuatara which is often called a "living dinosaur", and the coelacanth, and solenodon which are also called living fossils. That would expand the article with actual science and by percentage shrink the crypto stuff. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:08, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Of course, there's an entire living fossil article. --tronvillain (talk) 21:43, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Then perhaps just the tuatara or enigma moth since they have certainly been called living dinosaurs and would fit the article title. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:14, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Disambiguation

Given the almost total lack of supported content not duplicated in existing articles, I thought I'd see how this looks as a disambiguation page. --tronvillain (talk) 13:14, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

It could certainly be discussed before that would happen. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:23, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

BRD. If you want to revert while we discuss, by all means go ahead, but I'm curious to see what you support that with. --tronvillain (talk) 19:39, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

We were talking about adding Tuatara or Enigma Moth, which can be easily sourced as "living dinosaurs" when this was suddenly disambiguated. This article has been around since 2006 so changing it into a disambiguation article seems a little drastic without discussion. In fact there was just a discussion over at Partridge Creek monster to merge that into here, because this was a much more fully done article. I was against that but they seemed to think this article had some value. As I said before, the crypto section of this is way to big and the biology section way to small. Oh, and that "see also" list... Griffons, dragons, patridge creek monsters... I have no idea why those are there at all. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:45, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

The Tuatara and Enigma moth need nothing more than the disambiguation page (when they're described as that, it is clearly used in the sense of living fossils), and the Partridge Creek monster is one of the few reports in the "See also" section actually described as a dinosaur in somewhat mainstream sources. --tronvillain (talk) 22:58, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. This is currently a textbook case of WP:SYNTH with major notability problems (WP:NOTABILITY) and a bad case of undue emphasis on an obscure fringe subculture (WP:UNDUE). It even cites Roy Mackal, as if his A Living Dinosaur?: In Search of Mokele-Mbembe isn't an obvious WP:RS hard fail. Misplaced Pages isn’t a directory for every obscure crackpot idea floating around on the internet, and this is deep WP:FRINGE territory. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:01, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Those are reasonable points for this article, but it has evolved as an article over 12 years so to suddenly turn it into a disambiguation article should probably have some formal discussion. I just want to make sure everyone who edits this things has a chance to weigh in. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:26, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

12 years, and this was all they scraped together: a bloated disambiguation page except in name. Make some arguments. --tronvillain (talk) 12:29, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

RfC on changing "Living dinosaur" from a standard article to a disambiguation list page

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Maths, science, and technology History and geography When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

• Shall the article Living dinosaur be changed from a standard format article, to a disambiguation list-format article?

Note - The article has existed since 2006, starting out as more of a list-type page, but evolving into an article with prose by 2010. There were recent discussions about expansion by adding sentences on the Tuatara and Enigma moth, creatures actually called living dinosaurs in sources. Other article contents have also been discussed about merging into the Living dinosaur article. However, a couple editors have expressed a desire to change Living dinosaur into a non-article formal disambiguation list-form page with little to no prose, such as with this example.

I thought it best that more editors should have eyes and comments on what final form a 12 year-old article should take to best serve our readers. Major editors of this article and the proper WikiProjects should be informed. I felt a 12 year-old article warranted more discussion than just three or four editors when such a huge change could be taking place. Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:41, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

• I'm thinking that there are good aspects of having some list changes as suggested in the above topic header links, but to turn it into an actual non-article disambiguation page seems a bit drastic imho, especially when it was under a current discussion on the talk page on how to make the article better. In looking at this article's history over the last 12 years, many editors have worked on the article, regular accounts and administrators alike. They have added to the prose and links and may not be aware of the potential removal of info if they don't have it on a watchlist. To me it seems better served to have both prose and lists, a little less on the crypto-side and a little more on the general biology-side. Then perhaps a list on the bottom as in the disambiguation suggestion in the RfC. I'd need to be convinced that overhauling this into a disambiguation page only is in the best interest of our readers. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:41, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Survey

• Oppose - I don't see where this is in our readers best interests to change this into a non-article disambiguation page. Changes could certainly help, but it doesn't need to be taken to that extreme. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:45, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Age of article irrelevant. Misplaced Pages unfortunately hosts many fringe articles from a decade ago to this day. On this article, huge amount of undue emphasis on fringe topics (cryptozoology; WP:UNDUE). Section on cryptozoology total WP:SYNTH, cites a fringe author that fails WP:RS, most references there make no mention of cryptozoology whatsoever. Just a total unsalvageable, wrong-headed mess, as usual with these deep fringe topics when they come under review. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:10, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support - as already pointed out, the age of the article is irrelevant. What matters is the content, and all the biology section requires is a link to birds or origin of birds, all the paleontology section requires is a link to paleocene dinosaurs, which only leaves the almost nonexistent cryptozoology/creationism section. Add a link to living fossil, and you have a far more useful page than currently exists, as seen here]. --tronvillain (talk) 22:47, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Just so the example is more evident:

Living dinosaur may refer to:

• Living fossils, extant taxons that closely resemble organisms otherwise known only from the fossil record
• Birds, the only extant clade of dinosaurs
• Paleocene dinosaurs, non-avian dinosaurs alleged to have survived into the beginning of the Paleocene epoch
• Mokele-mbembe, a legendary creature claimed by creationists and cryptozoologists to be a surviving non-avian dinosaur
• Partridge Creek monster, a purported Ceratosaurus reported in the Yukon in the early 1900s

...

Now, the original example had more entries under cryptozoology, but Emela-ntouka, Mbielu-Mbielu-Mbielu, Ngoubou, and Nguma-monene are essentially nonexistent articles and excellent candidates for deletion/redirect.--tronvillain (talk) 12:24, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - as it stands there are three different facets of the term covered, which does require an article rather than a list format. The cryptozoology side might want to be tuned down a little; otherwise I think this is a useful format, and there's not much to be gained from turning it into a list. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 09:11, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Covering three terms (four really, since it's clearly used to mean "living fossil" as well) isn't an argument for keeping it as an article - that's literally what a disambiguation page does. --tronvillain (talk) 11:44, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, I prefer having a short explanatory paragraph there instead of just a link. Makes the page work as an overview rather than just a junction. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 14:03, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. Article needs a bit of fleshing out and less emphasis on cryptozoology but it's a topic that should be here. Rap Chart Mike (talk) 12:08, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Again, in what sense does it need "fleshing out" instead of disambiguation? What would you add that isn't duplicating the existing articles? --tronvillain (talk) 12:13, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

This article is not on the list of things I'm interested in editing. The question was support or oppose and why, not please debate this. If it's going to disambiguation it might as well be AfD because if it doesn't serve to call out cryptozoology as being demonstrably false then it serves no purpose since these things do not exist. Rap Chart Mike (talk) 12:22, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

RfCs aren't just votes - they frequently (if not almost always) involve discussions, and strength of arguments is a major factor in closing an RfC.--tronvillain (talk) 12:42, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose, too complicated for a disam page, and there are no article titles actually using the term I think. I hope Living fossil will not be next - it should not be. No heckling, tronvillain, please. Johnbod (talk) 16:16, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose- I thought this kind of issue was resolved, it seems I was mistaken...(sighs) ... I am going to have to oppose this for the same reason I have opposed such actions before. This article is and has been completely FINE. It's properly sourced. and notable enough to warrant its existence in spite of claims to the contrary.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:13, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

"Completely FINE ... properly sourced", eh? :bloodofox: (talk) 21:53, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

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