Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 11:25, 31 October 2006

/Archive0 /Archive1 (Tamil-related discussions) /Archive2 /Archive3 (of some aberrations) /Archive4 /Archive5 /Archive6 /Archive7 /Archive8 /Archive9 /ArchiveA /ArchiveB

Belated vacation notice and thank you

I thank you all for your Diwali wishes. I was away on vacation and couldn't reply you earlier. I read each one of your wishes and please treat this as a personal "thank you" note. I've also taken note of other messages too. Please give me some time to respond to them while I complete my non-wiki stuff. Thanks. -- Sundar 04:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Need some clarifications

• What is wikistalking? Found it. just saw your message. I had already typed this by then. Thanks anyway
• As far as I can remember, I have always been civil in my language with User:Parthi. Per this I dont see how my comments can be construed as uncivil. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
• And in my opinion, this by User:Baka was certainly uncivil(and a PA) and hence this warning by Arya was frivolous; not to mention, anything about the same two users in question indulging in a no-holds barred all out attack and insinuation of me being a puppetmaster on the checkuser page(where if you noticed, I refrained from commenting in spite of extreme provocation)
• This one and this one where Parthi accuses me of PA when I am not even close and goes ahead to attribute malicious intentions to my edits one was uncivil too.

Please let me know if I am mistaken. Thanks and belated Deepawali wishes. Sarvagnya 10:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

And since I now know what wikistalking is, I can assure you that I'd be editing the pages I edit, whether or not Parthi or anyone else edits those pages. And since I now know what wikistalking is, I fear that Arya and Mahawiki may be indulging in exactly the same thing. I request you to please check(I am talking about Carnatic music, not SJSA).

Also, about the articles in question(Sangam and Sangam lit.,) which I presume you're talking about, I certainly feel that I have discussed my edits on the talk page to a fault. Even to the point of being verbose perhaps. e.g.,. I also feel that everyone has to AGF a little more. This is the kind of admin mediation that could probably have prevented Mahawiki vs Kannada editors go downhill as badly as it did. Thanks for your timely intervention. Sarvagnya 11:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Namaskar. As far as my edits on Carnatic music,I am sorry for that.But I think I am entitled to edit SJSE or Konkani since I know about it or it is directly or indirectly related to my intrests.In case u dont know Sarvagnya's wikistalking, his edits on Marathi_people, Maratha_empire, People known as great compromise it.I hope u dont mind my defending the articles related to Maharashtra as I am concerned about pushing of POV by 'some editors' there.

Please have a look on Konkani page,I find mention of Kannada script on that page unnecessary.Plz advice on that issue.

Mahawiki 13:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

thanks man

Sundarbhai, I do not deserve so many barnstars! Needless to say, I appreciate it a helluva lot. As for FA drives, those are my raison d'etre. Whenever I can be of use, lemme know. Thanks again, Rama's arrow 13:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

You surely deserve the barnstar. Continue your good work. I'll ask you if I need you for some article. -- Sundar 13:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

When I started my second editor review, I had no idea how greatly helpful it would be to me. Here are people from across the world who I've never met or laid eyes upon, taking their personal time to think about me and offer me valuable criticism and advice. And the stuff I've learnt is more helpful in real life than just on Misplaced Pages. This is an experiment I will never forget. I thank you most sincerely for your kindness, for helping me be a better person. I am very much in your debt. Rama's arrow 15:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikistalking

Sundar, I was not aware that wikistalking is offensive otherwise I'd have reported Venu62's actions long back. Please see ] and ] to see who is stalking whom.-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 20:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Sundar, just to keep you informed about Venu62's actions, not that you have to do anything:

See evidences of his wikistalking (all within the last 1-2 days immediately after my edits, and on a wide variety of topics in which he hasnt taken done a single edit earlier):

Teshub, Slavic Mythology , Kerala Kalamandalam, Chembai, Chembai Sangeetholsavam, Tamil Trinity

These are only a small sample, if you want I can give more. Now you say, isn't my case of stalking and harrasment made?-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 08:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Carnatic music

Sundar, I have no particular barrow to push as far as this article is concerned. My only role since the dispute started is to offer support to User:Aadal, who has the knowledge in Carnatic music. My position is to be inclusive. As I have stated many times in the CM talk page, we don't claim that the Ancient Tamil music was/is identical to Carnatic music of today. All we want to document that the evolution of Carnatic music had many influences including the Ancient Tamil music. In this context, the contributions of the Tamil Trinity and Cilappatikaram et al are relevant to lay the ground work of prevailing environment in South India which helped the music system to evolve. Now this is not to deny that other influences such as the Kannada music or Andhra music did not have any influence. I simply do not have the knowledge in them. User:Srkris and others seem to brush aside anything that they don't agree with or have any knowledge of. For example this user even claimed that Cilappatikaram doesn't even represent Tamil culture as its author may have been a Jain! - Parthi 21:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Many people and many tradtions influenced CM. However, we should not lose sight of how much these influences really count in the final tally. The fact of the matter is musicologists are unanimous about the influences of Sanskrit traditions like that of the Sama Veda. They are unanimous about the seminal and definitive nature of NS, Brhddesi, SR, CP and many texts between and after these texts. All these authoritative texts are in Sanskrit and authored by people from all over India(infact a good number of them are from Karnataka and probably none of them were from Tamil country until around Venkatamukhi). And we havent seen any evidence yet of any of these works crediting either the Silapp., or the TT with anything.

Even if we were to suppose for a moment that, the Silapp., and the so called tamil trinity may have influenced the evolution of CM in their own ways, there is no reason for us to believe that they've had enough influence to warrant mentions in a 200 word(or so) summary of the History of CM.

Forget a 200 word summary, I can cite entire books of 200 pages or more that have been written about the topic without even so much as mentioning these works (or the associated kurals, thuttamsa and uLLocais) even in passing. Sarvagnya 21:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Sundar, sorry that I'm using your talk page to explain. My stand is that ATM is a parallel tradition which eventually died out, after leaving some of its influence in Carnatic Music. This has nothing to do with Tamil vs Sanskrit names etc. There have been many Tamil Carantic Composers who are well recognized. I am just saying Silappathikaram music is not Carnatic Music by any stretch, and swaras were never referred to by their ATM names by any Carnatic Musician at any point of time. I love Tamil and everything about Tamil as much as you or Venu62 or Aadal do, but that is not relevant here, and I want to clarify this!-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 08:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Contrary to what Venu62 says above, he was the one who started the dispute, after I registered my protest against his unreasonable reverts - just see the talk page. He invited Aadal into it and passed on the mantle to Aadal, and acts innocent now. He has been stalking me as I have pointed out above. He has been threatening me in my talk page, see . Please also have a look my level of civility in my message to him versus his in reply.-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 08:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

With this kind of bad blood running between you, I doubt if mediation would be effective. I'm afraid, it'll go for arbitration, in which case it'll be tiresome and painful. -- Sundar 08:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sundar, This might give you a background to the animosity User:Srkris feels towards me. As far as the CM article is concerned, I have stopped actively contributing long time ago. I have even removed it from my watchlist. All I do nowadays is to watch for blatant vandalism and linkspamming. I have no dispute with the editors. But I can't standby watching two or three editors ganging up against one editor (Aadal) who has been very civil and reasonable so far against great provocation. - Parthi 09:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Watching against linkspamming is admissible. Regarding CM, let's wait for the mediators to respond. -- Sundar 09:56, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Sundar, you now understand the level of animosity Venu62 has been displaying towards me. I can show you more such actions of his. If there's a misunderstanding between me and Aadal regarding the CM article, why does Venu62 have to interfere or attack me personally and engage in wikistalking (i.e harrassment)? If you see the very first heading on the CM talk page, it was his arbitrary reversals which made me complain against his high handed behaviour. I never ganged up with Sarvagna or anyone else. They (Sarvagna etc) just agreed with my views about Venu62 and they themselves decided to proceed along with me. I have already shown you a sample of my message in his talk page and how he replied in my talk page for it. He said initially "To use an Aussie term, dont get your knickers in a knot over this". You can understand his politeness level with a stranger.-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 16:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The reason I'm telling you all this even though you stood in support of Venu62 like a friend, is because I am convinced of your neutrality and fairness, and also to show who has been causing greater offence here. I am ready to apologise for any offense I have caused to anyone, I know I have, but what I have been receiving in return is much worse.-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 16:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you accusing me of spamming? Are you aware that my links had nothing to do with spamming (even if Venu62 claims so maliciously)? The issue was that even external links that are related to the topic at hand are not allowed on wikipedia if they are from forum threads. I had posted some such threads on many articles and Venu62 calls it spam. It is regrettable that you are toeing his line. Venu62's wikistalking has nothing to do with this however. Whether he has contributed for 1 FA or a hundred does not give him immunity to disrupt or harrass other editors. -- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 11:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

How is adding threads of a carnatic music forum in related carnatic music articles considered spamming? I did not have the habit of logging into WP often until lately, so most of my edits have been anonymous before September. Also please note I had provided only relevant threads in corresponding WP pages - like adding a forum thread URL containing discussions on thyagaraja in the WP Thyagaraja article, adding the URL containing discussions on ragas in the WP ragas article etc. Everything was directly relevant to the article. But it is WP policy not to add pages of forums in external links - this is what I learnt later. Is it called spamming? Would a spammer apologise for unintentionally going against WP's rules and explain what went wrong? Do you understand what I did before accusing me?-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 15:17, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi I am not accusing you of having malicious intent. Maybe you were not aware of my edits when you said I am not aware of rules regarding spamming. I know what is spamming, but this is not spamming. It's about placing completely relevant external links on related articles (directly relevant to the topic of the article). Misplaced Pages does not call it spamming although links to fora and websites associated with the editor are discouraged. Spamming means mass flooding with intent to compromise the integrity of wikipedia or post unrelated links which are not directly related to the topic or post commercial links which hold very little or no content for it to be useful to wikipedians. What I did is not spamming by any stretch. A spammer does not voluntarily identify himself or own up to his folly. I am sure you know this much. You asked "why no anonymous content edits?". I have done a lot of anonymous content edits, although it wont appear in the same IP address since I dont have static IP. As I said, I have been logging on regularly only from September this year although I registered a year ago. Do you want a list of the content edits I have done anonymously?. What I am trying to do here is a gentle reminder of the famous Thirukkural "thIyinAl sutta puN...", and I hope you dont have to defend all the bad behaviour of Venu62, who still offends me with intent by calling me a spammer. I know that you had asked Venu62 to stop the acrimony, but I feel you are falling in line with him in assuming bad intent and using his insults (even without intent to offend). That said, I have no need prove my credentials, but I have the right to not be called a spammer when I am not one. Venu62 is not all hunky dory and I have found what his character is, but I dont have to prove it to anyone else, nor is my goal to harp on the past. I am merely requesting you to not label anyone with the words of your friends. Please form your own judgement.-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 01:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Sundar, you said "Kris, it takes a giant leap of faith (and probability too) to have all anonymous link addition edits to happen under a particular IP and content edits to happen under a different IP so neatly." I never said all my content edits come under a single IP address. Even all my link additions dont fall under a single IP, although I added the links in one day. I know fairly the articles which I have been editing and I can search the histories of those to get my edits. IPs of my edits usually start like 59.xx.xx. It doesnt mean all of them are the same IP address though. Please dont put words into my mouth that suit your preconceived notions (if any) and say that it requires giant leap of faith. I expected better understanding and expectation of good faith from you than from Venu62, but it looks that you are more interested in defending your friend than looking at the truth (sorry but no offense to you).-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 11:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Tamil words

Hello Sundar! I hope you had a good vacation and a wonderful deepavali. When you have some free time, could you take a look at these proposals for writing Tamil words in the Latin script and let me know what you think. You can comment directly against a proposal, or reply here, or on the talk page for the proposals as you prefer. I'd particularly appreciate your thoughts on the problem of representing ற். -- Arvind 21:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

Hi Sundar, this is a difficult comment to write. If you would be so kind, please read User:BostonMA#Dbachmann's use of ethnic, national and religious attributes of editors when making negative criticisms. You may note that it has changed since we last discussed. I'm sorry to say that I think matters have come to the point where an RfC seems to be the only way forward in resolving this issue. Since you and I had talked, there had been another remark made, and I wrote to dab suggesting that we ask your assistance to mediate, but he did not reply to my suggestion. Now there has been another remark. Although I think dab is very useful as a contributor, I think his use of words has a very negative effect on the community, and the situation, has gotten to the point where I don't think it can be tolerated any more. Although I am concerned that dab may just walk out in frustration if there is an RfC, I can't see this continuing. It sets a very bad example and encourages hostility along racial, ethnic, religious lines. I am hoping that you might be able to open the lines of communication with dab, so that an RfC might be avoided. Whatever efforts you may take in this direction would be very much appreciated. With a heavy heart, sincerely, --BostonMA 14:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you please wait till Monday when I become more available for this? If it's very urgent, please approach another mediator from WP:MEDCAB before you take recourse to an RfC. -- Sundar 15:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I am in no hurry, nor do I wish you to be in a hurry. It is better to see if there is a way out of the situation. I would very much prefer that you mediate since you seem to have some rapport with dab, which might not be the case with a random editor from Mediation Cabal. --BostonMA 15:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

PTR

• His name is Palanivel Rajan spelt Palanivel not Palianivel as in P. T. R. Palianivel Rajan.Secondly his father was P. T. Rajan who also a ex chief minister which could led to confusion and in the press and media he is known as Palanivel Rajan hence redirected the page to Palanivel Rajan. thanks Harlowraman

Thanks Harlowraman. It should be P. T. R. Palanivel Rajan then. That's how he's known most in Madurai. Also, that's per WP:MOS. -- Sundar 09:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt response .I have also redirected Palanivel Rajan to P. T. R. Palanivel Rajan.I had updated from 27th oct correcting wrong facts like he was speaker from from 1991-1996 while he was the speaker from 1996-2001 with the relevant links and add some more relevant facts with external links Thank you Harlowraman