Talk:Adam Milstein: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 22:18, 11 September 2018 editHuldra (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers83,885 edits →Non-BLP sourcing for serious accusations ← Previous edit		Revision as of 22:20, 11 September 2018 edit undoNableezy (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers56,184 edits →Discussion Next edit →
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	: In any event it was not released by AJ (Qatari gvmt influence over it a question of AJ being a RS at all). So we have reporting on segments that were supposedly leaked - raw bits of some unreleased whole. The rather limited secondary reporting (mentioning the subject here) is limited to description of these bits with no followup reporting on the substance. We do not actually have a reliable publication standing behind these bits.22:07, 11 September 2018 (UTC)		: In any event it was not released by AJ (Qatari gvmt influence over it a question of AJ being a RS at all). So we have reporting on segments that were supposedly leaked - raw bits of some unreleased whole. The rather limited secondary reporting (mentioning the subject here) is limited to description of these bits with no followup reporting on the substance. We do not actually have a reliable publication standing behind these bits.22:07, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
	::There is follow-up reporting on the substance, what are you talking about. Milstein's denial of the claim has received widespread coverage, as has obviously the accusation itself. Eg , , . <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 22:16, 11 September 2018 (UTC)</small>		::There is follow-up reporting on the substance, what are you talking about. Milstein's denial of the claim has received widespread coverage, as has obviously the accusation itself. Eg , , . <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 22:16, 11 September 2018 (UTC)</small>
			::Also, flat out calls him Canary Mission's founder. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 22:20, 11 September 2018 (UTC)</small>

	== Non-BLP sourcing for serious accusations ==		== Non-BLP sourcing for serious accusations ==

Revision as of 22:20, 11 September 2018

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Tax evasion

More is needed on his tax evasion conviction, which is mentioned in passing in a "JNS" article, and more in general on controversies. The problem is a lack of reliable sourcing, as he has mainly been covered in blogs. We had a "criticism" section that contained close paraphrases from the JNS article and also seemed UNDUE. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 17:34, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Added from a primary source. I see there is a paid editor working on this article. If he is truly interested in building an encyclopedia, as paid editors always claim, the way to do it is to suggest sources that deal with his criminal convinction, which is underweighted in the article due to lack of sourcing. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 18:35, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

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RfC on Al Jazeera Documentary

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The following text was recently added to the lead of the article:

The Lobby – USA, a censored Al-Jazeera documentary about the Israeli lobby in the USA, features hidden camera footage of Eric Gallagher claiming that Milstein funds The Israel Project, as well as Canary Mission.

The text in question was added via these edits, sourced to Electronic Intifada and Haaretz. Should this text be removed? Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 12:07, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Survey

Yes per WP:UNDUE, WP:V, WP:REDFLAG and WP:BLP. EI is not a reliable source. Our policies require better sourcing for contentious material in biographies of living persons. The phrasing of the addition is POV ("censored") and the placement in the lead is UNDUE. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 12:07, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
Yes (Remove). Clearly UNDUE. No reliable source - EI is not a RS. Haaretz is claiming he is mentioned in an AJ doco that was canned and never published by AJ (a strong indication the doco failed AJ's editorial process). Definitely not lede worthy, and UNDUE all together - besodes failing sourcing per BLP policy.Icewhiz (talk) 13:14, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
No (Move to body) The Haaretz mention is a reliable source, and the wording of the text provides sufficient context to the accusation to not be WP:UNDUE. However, including it in the lead would be undue. _signed,Rosguill 21:47, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
No (Move to body) It is not significant enough to be in the lead, but it should be mentioned somewhere in the body, together with mr Milstein denial. Huldra (talk) 22:14, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
No - widely covered in reliable sources, see below for just a few. Suffice it to say, when JTA, Haaretz, and the Time of Israel all support the material in question as reported by EI the claim that EI is not a reliable source loses any value. There are a plethora of sources available here. nableezy - 22:17, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

It seems misleading to claim as Icewhiz has that the Al Jazeera documentary was "canned" or that it "failed AJ's editorial process": the Haaretz source is quite clear that the documentary was censored by the Qatari government. _signed,Rosguill 21:47, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

In any event it was not released by AJ (Qatari gvmt influence over it a question of AJ being a RS at all). So we have reporting on segments that were supposedly leaked - raw bits of some unreleased whole. The rather limited secondary reporting (mentioning the subject here) is limited to description of these bits with no followup reporting on the substance. We do not actually have a reliable publication standing behind these bits.22:07, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

There is follow-up reporting on the substance, what are you talking about. Milstein's denial of the claim has received widespread coverage, as has obviously the accusation itself. Eg JTA, Haaretz, Times of Israel. nableezy - 22:16, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Also, Le Monde flat out calls him Canary Mission's founder. nableezy - 22:20, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Non-BLP sourcing for serious accusations

This revert reintroduced serious accusations in contravention to BLP policy. The section cotes three sources - JNS which is a deadlink and does no appear online (despite JNS having aj archove), Electronic Intifada - an advocacy site and certainly npt a source appropriate for a BLP - and EI itself mainly cites a primary document, and the primary court document which does not mention the subject by name and is not usable anyway per BLPPRIMARY. Please do not reinstate without actual secondary RSes backing this up.Icewhiz (talk) 21:24, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

I have no problem with adding text on the tax evasion conviction if it is reliably sourced. I am perplexed the sourcing is as skimpy as it is. But that is not our fault. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 21:28, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

This individual is not a low key individual. He is covered. One would expect better than an opposed advocacy site citing a redacted judgement.Icewhiz (talk) 21:34, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

And Milstein (or someone close to him/sympathetic to him) have apparently gone through a lot of trouble hiding this. Anyway, we have 3 sources here:

"UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. TUVIA MILSZTEIN SOCIAL SECURITY NO. 3 3 4 2 ADAM MILSTEIN (LAST 4 DIGITS)". FindACase.
"Active Philanthropist Adam Milstein – a Growing Connector in the Jewish World". JNS.
Why did Israel intervene for convicted US felon Adam Milstein? Abraham Greenhouse, The Electronic Intifada, 15 December 2014

Do you seriously think that archive.org have falsified the JNS page? In addition we have the case file. Sorry, User:Icewhiz, you have no case here, and I think you know it. I will take this to the WP:BLP/N, if necessary, Huldra (talk) 21:40, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

The redacted case file fails BLPPRIMARY (and there may be issues with RSness as well), the JNS archive is dead, and EI is not a source appropriate for such a BLP accusation. Beyond this we have UNDUE to consider - even if true, this is a very minor tax conviction which seems to be ignored by more mainstream sources covering the subject.Icewhiz (talk) 21:44, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

When I click on the Web Archive link I get text which then vanishes. That is the only usable source. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 21:52, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

A weird gray filter appears over the text when I open the link. However, I am then able to click a button that says "clear" and read the article without interference. _signed,Rosguill 21:56, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

I was able to read it by instantly pressing "print." Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 22:00, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

This is an interesting situation. We have three sources: a murky, uninformative reference to a "tax evasion conviction" in an otherwise puffy JNS article; Electronic Intifada (unusable, not an RS source); and lastly we have a Find-a-case court decision that has two problems: first it relates to a "TUVIA MILSZTEIN" not Adam Milstein. Where is the reliable secondary sourcing to indicate that they are the same person; secondly it is a primary source and no, that is not optimal for indicating the nature of a criminal conviction. What if there were other proceedings? "Connecting the dots" and relying on non-RS sources strikes me as contrary to WP:OR. On balance I don't like the sourcing one bit. We need clear and reliable sourcing if we're going to slap a criminal conviction into someone's bio. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 22:14, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

I think we can be pretty sure Milstein would have been suing Electronic Intifada to hell and back by now, if what they wrote about him wasn't true. (It isn't as if Milstein couldn't afford it..) Huldra (talk) 22:18, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

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