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Islamic Fundamentalism

I hear that the fundamentalists strongly criticize Mustafa Kemal. I recall a rap by Soldiers of Allah proclaiming him to be a "so called hero". Any info? Extremists doesn't like him because Atatürk removed Islamic State System and make a law based system that muslims and non muslims are 100% equal.

It is true some Turkish citizens don't like him. They dream of a Turkey ruled by clerics, and that is unlikely to happen.

His family?

I think we should mention Atatürk's family somewhere in this article. Perhaps we could title the section "personal life" or something along those lines. Then we can mention his wife (was he married twice?) and his children, including Sabiha Gökçen—who isn't mentioned in this article at all. I'll try to do some research on his family, and add the section if there are no objections (unless someone beats me too it). —Khoikhoi 05:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I agree with your suggestion and I was planning to add something in that line when I have the time. With a quick check, Atatürk had at least eight adopted children (Afet İnan, Sabiha Gökçen, Fikriye, Ülkü, Nebile, Rukiye, Zehra, and Mustafa). So please go on and I will try to help you in the process. Regards, Atilim Gunes Baydin 16:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've added the section. —Khoikhoi 19:08, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Not to mention his menagerie called Abdul.

great article

one of the better articles i've seen on wikipedia. surprisingly unbiased. i was expecting the usual wiki-marx drivel

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.140.5.249 (talk) 06:53, 11 October 2006.

Problematic image caption

I am removing the mention of "32 kings and 62 presidents" from the image caption of USSR reception near section "international relations", as this seems to be a folk legend circulating around Turkish forums and I could not find any reliable source confirming this. Please keep the caption that way until these numbers can be proved. And the names of every single one of these monarchs and leaders should be listable, for such a great occasion. Atilim Gunes Baydin 21:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. To quote from Misplaced Pages:V#Burden of evidence:

So, if reliable sources are brought forth, the information can be added. If not, then it can't. —Khoikhoi 21:54, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Hagiographic

Overtly hagiographic, this needs to change and change soon.

No mention of genocide

There is no mention in the entire article of Armenian Genocide or the lesser-known Hellenic Genocide which are contemporary with Mustafa Kemal's rule and political development. Admittedly these issues are sensitive (see Orhan Pamuk's career), but to omit them altogether is to take a non-neutral stance. User:erxnmedia.

So, do you think we need to mention the so called Armenian Genocide or the Hellenic Genocide in all articles about all Turks who lived in the first quarter of the 20th century?--Hattusili 08:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I was going to post the same thing, this article seems overly positive. Wasn't Ataturk the president or PM when the genocides occured? The Pontic Greek Genocide for example. --AW 20:50, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

wtf? u have concerns discussions about the the armenian genoicide go do that on the appropriate page not on ataturk's page. i dont c any turks discussing how many turks had died by armenians in the, say, "Armenia" page. nor i c any turks trying to put information about how greek army, not greeks but an actual army, murdered turks after they invaded izmir on the mythology page. go get a life! Of course there wont be anything related to the so called "genocide". This is not the page dummies ProudTurk — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.69.86.39 (talk • contribs)

There should be sth regarding the "mini-genocide" during the campaign of Kâzim Karabekir (general who fought a dirty 'war' in the east) under Atatürk. - Though Atatürk acknowledged as much as 800'000 casualties of the Armenian Genocide of the Young Turks of 1915/17 this "mini-genocide" of Kâzim Karabekir in 1920 has a lot to do with Atatürk himself! User:Apocolocynthosis

User:Apocolocynthosis, if you have sources, please use them. User:72.69.86.39, if the genocides happened during his time in power, they deserve a mention. --AW 11:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

What was his position??

What did he do between 1921 (when he was pres) and 1923 (when he was PM). Commander of the military? That should be more explicit, it's sort of hard to follow. His positions in earlier years should be mentioned as well, they are sort of spotty --AW 21:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out. I can try to improve the coverage of those periods when I hopefully have the time in the near future. It would be great to see these points getting improved by other users too. Atilim Gunes Baydin 22:18, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I just don't know enough to do it. I think saying what official positions he held would be good. --AW 22:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

What is the reference that he was a freemason?

This article was tagged with a Turkish Freemasons category. What is the reference to this information? Aknxy 21:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

That claim is definitely unsourced. I removed it now but I'm pretty sure that some other loser (see: personal attack) will add that again in the future. Because people are interested in such stuff here: unsourced labelings and accusations to the biography articles, warring about former names of cities on place articles and so on. Regards, Atilim Gunes Baydin 22:14, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Saying someone is a Mason is hardly a personal attack. --AW 22:17, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

No, you got me wrong! I'm the one making the attack by using the word "loser" for an editor. That was meant to be a joke. Cheers, Atilim Gunes Baydin 22:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh ok, my apologies. It's hard to tell sometimes! --AW 22:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Self treatment with alcohol for anxiety and being an alcoholic are different things as well as its relation to liver disease attributed to him. I edited the pertinent sentence for your review if found agreeable. Thanks.

This is very strange. Despite good faith efforst of discussion, asking open review and permission for changes someone comes and disrespectfully vandalises the edits by users in a wholesale arrogance. Is this the open contribution philosophy of Misplaced Pages. Please see below. I am reposting my changes and please discuss what is not right or good about them before doing anything. Thanks.

Request of assistance for vandal user behaviour by Khoikhoi

Could the administation and users take an independent look for the following reversal of useful and pertinent contributions at the Mustafa Kemal Ataturk site please? It is very difficult for me not to interpret the revision by Khoikhoi as disrespectful vandalism and disruptive behaviour. More I studied his log history at various article related to the Turkish subjects and prior bans for the same disruptive behaviour, more concerned I became. Could someone help revert the edits he damaged and request him to be more respectful to others' work? Thank you.

(cur) (last) 16:06, 10 November 2006 Khoikhoi (Talk | contribs) (rv to last version by me) (what last revision? this is a whole sale deletion and vandalism, is it not?) (cur) (last) 14:59, 10 November 2006 Incir (Talk | contribs) (→External links) (cur) (last) 14:26, 10 November 2006 88.242.84.98 (Talk) (→See also) (cur) (last) 06:19, 10 November 2006 71.162.66.250 (Talk) (→An Overview in A Nutshell) (cur) (last) 05:59, 10 November 2006 71.162.66.250 (Talk) (→International relations)

Hi. I added a {{fact}} tag to sentence about MacArthur calling him his best friend, because it needs a source. I also removed "filled with never ending selfless hard work and genuine concern over his nation and country" because it was uncessary and sounded too POV-ish. As for the "Overview in A Nutshell", I don't get what the point of it is. We already have a biography section that discussed his life in detail. Lastly, I removed a link to the Armenian Genocide in the "see also" section. Cheers, Khoikhoi 04:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Wait a minute. Who is to say what necessary and unnecessary are and what is too (what is the right dose etc) POV. When you asserted repeatedly that he was an alcoholic did not mean a pov? I dont think you counted his glasses or smelt his breath to assert these right? (get my point?).This is all subjective and cultural prejudice based, if not enmity driven. This should not be a form of domain control and gate keeping by you or anyone at all. Five may agree five may disagree but should not be the first one who got irritated push the reverse button . Similarly, 'I dont get the point' does not mean universal represantation and should not lead to revert by the self appointed regulator. Needless to say, what is put there is not anywhere else in the article and complements it very well, therefore saying 'we have such and such and I find and allow that much only' is worrisome. I re-enter these contributions and want them to stay. Finally, the citation is McArthur's handwritten note entered and on display at his moseleoum in Ankara. Even the citation request coming from personal curiosity should and could have been requested here rather than show offs on the article. Perhaps you would take the time to consider these for the next conflict.

I didn't even understand half of the things you just said. There is no cultural prejudice here... When did I say he was an alcoholic? What's wrong with saying he consumed vast quanities of it? Does it tarnish his image or something? And who is "five"? If there are things not already in the article, add them to the biography section, but don't create a second biography section—it looks sloppy. If you have a reliable source about MacArthur, cite it in the article. How is it a "show off"? I would like to remind out to remain civil here. Khoikhoi 04:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

hmm, does not only civility bring civility? the vandalism log trail that user had posted did not get explained at all. By the way, I think he was trying to ask how you knew about the vast quantities of alcohol (did you count his bottles?), and the whereabouts of your reference and why your reversals are not endorsements of personal attacks. That is my take. I am sure you can get a few of your kind doing 'administrative work' of your sort would continue to sustain your belligerence.

and peace be upon him

Indeed. Khoikhoi 04:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Strange edit wars

restored sustained vandalism by ManiF helping disruption that Khoikhoi was instigating on a few rather nice changes the user 71.162.xx was trying to protect. 05:23, 11 November 2006 ManiF (Talk | contribs) 05:19, 11 November 2006 ManiF (Talk | contribs) 05:00, 11 November 2006 71.162.66.250 (Talk)

Bubblebuster 06:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

CENSORSHIP regarding Atatürk's view on ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

why did you delete my contribution on such an incredible foundation? The contribution is of poor quality and doesn't fit the flow of the article. No, I'm not removing it in an automatical manner. You could perhaps try to make new section for it, with clear references.

!!!!!!!The References were given for those who are willing to read!!!!!!

"Vakit" ve "Alemdar" 15.03.1919 (800'000); General Harbord; TBMM Gizli Celse Zabitlari Vol. 4 Ankara 1985 p. 439-440; Rauf Orbay'in Hatiralari Yakin Tarihimiz, Vol 3 p. 179

Therefore I had to introduce a new section not to disturb your flux!!!!! "Attitude towards Armenian Genocide" Mustafa Kemal accepted the Armenian massacre. The figure was set at 800'000. According to Atatürk the massacre and deportation of Armenians was the act of a small committee that had seized power.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Apocolocynthosis (talk) 18:31, 10 November 2006

Hey, calm down man. Who am I to censor anything? I was honestly considering your contribution to stay in the article but you did not provide them in the proper way. Could you check how the existing references in the article are cited? You only mentioned the references in your edit summary and that is not the correct way to do it. The references should be a part of the article's body. There is definitely no "given for those who are willing to read" business also. And I thought, honestly again, the place you've selected for your contribution (the top of the post war section, even before the mention of the Treaty of Lausanne) was definitely disturbing the flow of the article. I think you didn't care much about the flow and focused on putting the paragraph in somewhere. I do not want to delete anything stated with solid references and proper English. Please accept my honesty and regards, Atilim Gunes Baydin 19:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I am calm. I ask for neutral judges! This article is not your private censorship area! Is it? - Otherwise we will have to show heterodox teachings about Atatürk's life in the article under a special heading like ....disagreeding opinions.... . We will have to find a solution as there are respected references. Or, does this article not have to comply with Wiki-Standards?

If something looks like censorship and smells like censorship it probably is TURKISH CENSORSHIP! ]

• Instead of bringing references to this section , you choose to vandalize/revert article without any concensus. This is not acceptible in wiki. As a reply to your uncivil question "WHO ARE YOU"; you can read my real name in my sign. Please be calm,contribute to wiki in a positive manner.

Regards Mustafa Akalp 15:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

To all involved: Please mind WP:3RR and WP:CIVIL. --Fang Aili 19:47, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

An overview in the nutshell

The following suggestion for entry by the "Bubbleblaster" that kept deleted may read better when dispersed in the pertinent sections in the main article, rather than a recap at the end. 172GAL 08:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC) ("Everytime I hear the word "culture", I reach my revolver" Herman Goering)

He lost his father at age 7 and was taken out of school to live at a village at age 8. He was beaten sensless by his tutor at age 10 and was taken out of his new school again. He failed to achieve cumulative average score for his favorite school he always dreamt of, at age 17. He was arrested when 24, interrogated for days and put in solitary cell confinement for two months. He was 25 when sent to exile. When his colleague associate and close friend that is one year older than him was declared a hero by the association that he was serving, nobody noted him. When he was fighting to save cities from foreign occupations at age 30, his hometown fell to the enemy. His superior lobbied for him to be sent away to get rid of him when he was 30. He was left idle at his new location and could not get paid for months. He was in a hospital in Vienna for renal treatment confined to a bed for months lonely when he was 37. When returned to work, the army he would command was disbanded. He was fired by the Minister of Defense at age 38. He owned no civilian clothes to wear, no money saved and had to borrow a coat from a friend. An arrest warrant was issued for him the same year. A death order was issued for him when 39. He became the President of the Turkish republic when he was 42. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk read 18 thousand volumes of books in which over 200 000 lines are highlighted. Tens of thousands of sidenotes were entered. When found with red weepy eyes, he said his only worry was burning eyes which he took care of yards of soft fabric he'd ordered by his side to dry his eyes. He put his signature under the biggest changes and revolutions of his time. His farewell was equally impressive and touching with the last words of ‘.. and peace be upon you..’ in the morning of November 10, 1938 when Turkey was just waking up.

I recently reverted some quite comprehesive edits . Most of the edits where either whitewashing (omitting his alcohol consumption) or demonizing of his opponents. I do regret if I at the same time reverted relevant edits - if this is the case, please raise suggestion one by one here on the talk page. Bertilvidet 11:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC ) (Well, how the heck did you miss that 'he had an appreciation for the national beverage, rakı, and consumed it at official dinners. in reforms section? If you knew that he subscribed to Playboy magazine, you can please enter it in the article with a reference citation.)172GAL 19:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

BertilVidet, nobody is talking about your promoscius homosexuality or attacking other contributors like the way you did with your delusions a few weeks ago. I am sure you are mature enough to tolerate this as not whitewashing and not demonizing you, but I can put up a wikipedia article and post all your misdemenaours and actions in your log history there if you want. So you can make a comparison between Mustafa kemal's critics and your own critics. Keep your hands off of good contributions of others and concentrate on your agent provacatour role in Turkey paid by the west to divide the country. Now have a great day for yourself.

oops let me sign it so it will be more sore for your Danish bottom. 172GAL 18:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

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