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Revision as of 14:20, 17 November 2006 editGene Nygaard (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users90,047 edits Survey← Previous edit Revision as of 15:56, 17 November 2006 edit undoHusond (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers36,809 edits Survey: strong opposeNext edit →
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*I support in some cases the English variant (Arpad Elo for example), that is in cases where the people lived most of their lives in English speaking countries and used the English variant of spelling. In other cases I oppose (e.g. Luděk Pachman, who was not German but Czech and I myself own some books authored by him as Luděk Pachman) - then the local version should be retained. So we should deal it on a case-by-case basis, I think.--] 10:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC) *I support in some cases the English variant (Arpad Elo for example), that is in cases where the people lived most of their lives in English speaking countries and used the English variant of spelling. In other cases I oppose (e.g. Luděk Pachman, who was not German but Czech and I myself own some books authored by him as Luděk Pachman) - then the local version should be retained. So we should deal it on a case-by-case basis, I think.--] 10:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
:*If it is first reverted, and the burden of justifying the unexplained move is placed on those seeking to move it, I have no problem pulling ] out for individual consideration. We can just move the discussion for that particular move back to the moved talk page. But to do it any other way, in light of this string of hasty, unexplained, and largely improper moves, would not be fair. The burden of proof belongs on ]. Since Pachman published several books and they were published in more than one language, it may well be that they were published under various spellings of his name, and there is also the factor of the name under which he competed in international competitions. Then the question becomes whether he is well known in English under one of those, and whether or not there is any real cause to make the move for that or any other reason. ] 14:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC) :*If it is first reverted, and the burden of justifying the unexplained move is placed on those seeking to move it, I have no problem pulling ] out for individual consideration. We can just move the discussion for that particular move back to the moved talk page. But to do it any other way, in light of this string of hasty, unexplained, and largely improper moves, would not be fair. The burden of proof belongs on ]. Since Pachman published several books and they were published in more than one language, it may well be that they were published under various spellings of his name, and there is also the factor of the name under which he competed in international competitions. Then the question becomes whether he is well known in English under one of those, and whether or not there is any real cause to make the move for that or any other reason. ] 14:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Oppose''' Correct name as it is.--<strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font></strong> 15:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


===Discussion=== ===Discussion===

Revision as of 15:56, 17 November 2006

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As he's Hungarian, is his name "Árpád Élő" or "Élő Árpád"? If Élő is indeed his family name (as the article implies), I'm fairly certain his names are in the wrong order in the introduction. Of course, he may be an exception to the rule. Xyzzyva 17:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Name of article

Why the unexplained move some time ago from Arpad Elo to Árpád Élő? That is one of the most egregious abuses of the Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions rules I have ever seen. Naming conventions in general are based on how a person/place/thing/whatever is best known in English.

In this case, we can just as well look at how this world-renowned person (at least in the rating system for which he is the eponym) is known in any language whatsoever, and the results would be the same.

Here we have an American who spent all, or at least almost all, of his life in the United States, According to the introduction of the article itself, he himself spelled his name Arpad Elo. Any chess playing he did that is remembered today was done as an American whose name was Arpad Elo; his development of the rating system took place after he had been an American for decades.

He is best known, of course, in connection with the Elo rating system. Nobody ever uses anything other than Elo or ELO in connection with that rating system; nor has anyone found any reason to add any redirects from anything other than variants including one of those spellings.

In a Google search for the exact phrase "Elo rating system", and excluding articles with the word "Misplaced Pages" to lower the effect of the usage here on the results, there are 986 hits, of which 409 of them are displayed in the results. So what do those results show:

  1. In none of them is the spelling in connection with the rating system "Élő". It is always "Elo" or "ELO".
  2. Only two of those 409, in the key word in context display of the results, include the "Élő" spelling anywhere in those results, and one of them is a webpage in Chinese or some other East Asian language. That's despite the Élő spelling being used in the search itself. In those two cases, it is used in the name "Árpád Élő", and both could well result from the usage here on Misplaced Pages.

Actually, we also don't even have any evidence whatsoever of what the original spelling in any of his birth records or whatever in his part of Austria-Hungary would have been over a century ago, either, even if that had any relevance to the article name itself. Not even from any unreliable source (other than Misplaced Pages itself), let alone any reliable source. No discussion whatsoever of the name change other than the name order comment above which came in only recently, not related to the move much earlier, and that issue is also addressed somewhere in naming conventions; even if he had remained a Hungarian, it should be given name first in the English Misplaced Pages.

Clearly this is a misnomer. Yes, a redirect should exist from Árpád Élő, and it remains behind. It certainly should not be the name of the article, however. Gene Nygaard 23:00, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

User:Calton trying to pick a fight

User:Calton is trying to start irrational edit warring over the name of this article. I challenge him to provide any justification whatsoever for his move.

This is a copy of a message I posted on his talk page:

What, exactly, is the idea of moving Arpad Elo to a name nobody, ever, anywhere uses, outside an old Misplaced Pages listing and its clones. A move totally contrary to everything in Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions. A name totally contrary to common sense.

No, this is not another unilateral move. It is a longstanding article name, discussed without objection on the talk page. This is an American university professor and chess player, not known under any spelling other than "Arpad Elo" in any chess publications, not known under any spelling other than "Arpad Elo" in connection with his professorship at Marquette University.

He is best known for developing a chess ranking system. A system that is always, universally, everywhere in the world, known as the "Elo" system, though it is sometimes capitalized as the "ELO" system, often because people don't realize it is a person's name and mistakenly think it is an acronym.

Now, please move that back, or I will have to find the appropriate place for a complaint against your actions.

Can you cite any verifiable, reliable source showing that Arpad Elo ever used any other spelling, that he was ever known under any other spelling in any chess tournament, that he was ever known under any other spelling as a professor? I bet not. Gene Nygaard 05:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (people) is pretty clear that articles about people should 1) use the most generally recognizable name and 2) be in English. Unless I'm missing something here I'll revert to the English spelling tomorrow. --Duk 07:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Multiple moves, as listed below — Revert a series of edits by Mibelz, most or all of them chess related, all made without discussion. The ones listed here are contrary to naming conventions standards. Many of these people have moved to English-speaking countries and are known for their history in chess competitions under the original article name, and many are also known as authors (especially of books about chess) of English-language books published under that name. In many Mibelz has also deliberately added incorrect sort keys which result in the articles being mis-sorted in categories. In the listing below, I have included some additional identifying information, with User:Mibelz edit summaries when making the move placed in quotation marks. Gene Nygaard 09:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
  • I support in some cases the English variant (Arpad Elo for example), that is in cases where the people lived most of their lives in English speaking countries and used the English variant of spelling. In other cases I oppose (e.g. Luděk Pachman, who was not German but Czech and I myself own some books authored by him as Luděk Pachman) - then the local version should be retained. So we should deal it on a case-by-case basis, I think.--Ioannes Pragensis 10:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
  • If it is first reverted, and the burden of justifying the unexplained move is placed on those seeking to move it, I have no problem pulling Luděk Pachman out for individual consideration. We can just move the discussion for that particular move back to the moved talk page. But to do it any other way, in light of this string of hasty, unexplained, and largely improper moves, would not be fair. The burden of proof belongs on User:Mibelz. Since Pachman published several books and they were published in more than one language, it may well be that they were published under various spellings of his name, and there is also the factor of the name under which he competed in international competitions. Then the question becomes whether he is well known in English under one of those, and whether or not there is any real cause to make the move for that or any other reason. Gene Nygaard 14:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

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