Talk:Carles Puigdemont: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 20:07, 10 March 2019 editAsqueladd (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Rollbackers67,980 edits →Disputed ← Previous edit		Revision as of 20:17, 10 March 2019 edit undoBallenaBlanca (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users6,901 edits A proposalNext edit →
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	:{{ip\|193.153.142.71}} You are ]. I have warned you on your TP --] 🐳 ♂ ] 19:54, 10 March 2019 (UTC)		:{{ip\|193.153.142.71}} You are ]. I have warned you on your TP --] 🐳 ♂ ] 19:54, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
	::193.153.142.71. You may not like who disputes the fact, but it is disputed. In any case, the "need" to hard-code invented tradition in Misplaced Pages infoboxes just for the sake of it surpasses all understanding. .--Asqueladd (]) 20:07, 10 March 2019 (UTC)		::193.153.142.71. You may not like who disputes the fact, but it is disputed. In any case, the "need" to hard-code invented tradition in Misplaced Pages infoboxes just for the sake of it surpasses all understanding. .--Asqueladd (]) 20:07, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
			:::Thanks, {{u\|Asqueladd}}. IMO, the best option would be to add a brief section on the page itself, explaining the controversies, keeping the sources that already exist and adding the ones you proposed. --] 🐳 ♂ ] 20:16, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

	=== Puigdemont's Francoist Past ===		=== Puigdemont's Francoist Past ===

Revision as of 20:17, 10 March 2019

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This article contains a translation of Carles Puigdemont i Casamajó from ca.wikipedia. (698995403 et seq.)

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Exile?

Why exile? He did not go into exile, he is a fugitive who fled Spain to escaped prosecution because of his (alleged) offenses. Is Edward Snowden in Russia because he is a fugitive or he is self-exiled?Karljoos (talk) 19:52, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Can we find reliable sources to back this claim, in Spanish will do (fugitivo) or Catalan. If we can find such sources we should include this though not necessarily replacing, merely stating both. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 21:35, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

I think we can. 1. BBC News: Catalonia Spain: Fugitive Puigdemont abandons presidency 2. The Independent: Carles Puigdemont: Fugitive former Catalan president arrested in Germany 3.France 24: Fugitive Puigdemont abandons bid to return as Catalan leader 4. NBC News: Fugitive ex-Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont held by police in Germany 5. CBC: Thousands protest as fugitive ex-Catalan president arrested in Germany 6. NY Times: Spain Tries to Foil Re-election of Catalonia’s Fugitive Separatist Leader 7. Irish Times quote: Fugitive former Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont has made a renewed call for Spanish authorities to open negotiations over Catalonia’s secession claim, a day after he was released from a German prison. 8.Aljazeera.. So, fleeing a country to avoid prosecution... when it is from democratic countries like Spain (please see Democracy Index - Spain is ranked ahead of the USA and France) it is not exile. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karljoos (talk • contribs) 17:01, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

We can open this dispute time and again, and continue litigation for ever. This was discussed here 5 months ago. However, the final consensus has been altered recently. And now back again, to alter it further, over the same topic, just at the moment when some are on a campaign over this topic off the WP. Just please give it a rest. Iñaki LL (talk) 22:24, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

The point of the discussion is different. I am suggesting that the word 'exile' is not used in the article since it does not convey the reasons for Puigdemont's residence change. This was not brought up 5 months ago.-Karljoos (talk)

The discussion was comprehensive enough, and yes, it is basically the same point, the word exile, although in the case you are bringing up refers to not even using it, so we can go on and on again. Note that it has been changed in a short period from "exile" to "forced to exile", and "self-exile" by now. Iñaki LL (talk) 10:08, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Disputed

The reasoning behind editors being seemingly keen on including a rather disposable/inane element telling little to none about the subject (a mere ordinal to the service of Hobsbawm 's invented tradition) which is actually disputed by sources, evades me. The tacit question cames to me as rather obvious: can't any of you live without that friggin' ordinal in the infobox/the lede (either of them)?--Asqueladd (talk) 18:39, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

I understand your frustration but even if we get rid of the ordinal number some editors will find other excuses to cause disruption. They are maliciously targetting this article because they disagree with Puigdemont's politics. They are not here to create encyclopedic content. The only way to prevent this is to protect, or at least semi-protect, the article indefinitely.--Obi2canibe (talk) 20:06, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

The Catalan presidents enumeration has been used for a long time by the historiography, since it's a very useful way to understand to evolution of the Generalitat. It has also been widely used by all the international and Spanish media, like the most important Spanish newspaper, which is El País: The socialist José Montilla Aguilera has become this afternoon the new president of the Generalitat of Catalonia, the number 128 (November 2006), or the Spain's state-owned public corporation: Quim Torra has promised his position as 131th Catalan president "with fidelity to the people of Catalonia", from the Saló Verge de Montserrat of the Palau de la Generalitat (May 2018). The enumeration is also an official title of the presidents, as seen in the official Catalan Government website: Presidents of the Generalitat, which is why it's used by both the Spanish and Catalan governments, and also the foreign ones. Nobody has ever complained about it.

But, as @Obi2canibe: correctly pointed, as soon as Carles Puigdemont started going serious about the Catalan independence push, a very small group of people argued that he shouldn't be called the "130th" president. Which doesn't make any sense. Then again, when socialist José Montilla was appointed 128th Catalan president in 2006, more than a decade ago, nobody complained. We can look for instance at the ABC's news piece of that time, which is a Spanish newspaper from Madrid who's political alignment is described as "conservatism, Spanish nationalist, monarchist and right wing" according to this very Misplaced Pages: In this way, the first secretary of the PSC, born in Iznájar (Córdoba) 51 years ago, has become the 128th Catalan president, a position he will definitely take possession of next Tuesday, after his appointment is communicated to the King by the president of the Parliament. Carles Puigdemont is as much as a president as the previous ones. This is an encyclopedia, not an opinion blog. There's no point in discussing this. --193.153.77.68 (talk) 17:25, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Do not remove the templates, is not a good practice in Misplaced Pages. Yes it is a disputed topic. This discussion itself is a proof.

More references:

¿130 o 9 presidentes?

La “mentira” de los 131 presidentes de la Generalitat

La gran mentira histórica de los 131 presidentes de la Generalitat, el nuevo mantra del nacionalismo catalán

The Puigdemont factor

Note that I am respecting the figure of 130h anyway. --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk) 17:06, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Carles Puigdemont being the 130th president is not a disputed topic. All of the articles that you have shared are opinion pieces where the authors express different opinions. And the last one of your articles says that Puigdemont is "the ninth president since 1931", which is true, but the article is not saying that he isn't the 130th president. The fact that all of your opinion articles were written during or after Puigdemont presidency is revealing by itself, even though this enumeration has been in use for decades. Nobody seemed to complain when Maragall was appointed 127th president in 2003, for instance. WP:NPOV.

Sources in English from all over the world are pretty clear (not opinion pieces): DailyMail, The Australian, Al Jazeera, The Guardian, The Sunday Times, Harvard College, The Indian Express, etc.

There are thousands of sources in Spanish stating that Puigdemont is the 130th president. Including news pieces (not opinion ones) coming from your own sources that you have shared: eldiario.es (your first link), El País (your second link) and ABC (your third link). Which clearly shows that it isn't a disputed topic. --193.153.142.71 (talk) 18:06, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

193.153.142.71 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) You are edit warring. I have warned you on your TP --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk) 19:54, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

193.153.142.71. You may not like who disputes the fact, but it is disputed. In any case, the "need" to hard-code invented tradition in Misplaced Pages infoboxes just for the sake of it surpasses all understanding. .--Asqueladd (talk) 20:07, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Asqueladd. IMO, the best option would be to add a brief section on the page itself, explaining the controversies, keeping the sources that already exist and adding the ones you proposed. --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk) 20:16, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Puigdemont's Francoist Past

I am really struck by the absence of any reference to Puigdemont's family background in Carlismo, the traditionalist branch of falange that made Franco into such a popular ruler and figurehead in rural Catalan areas - such as Puigdemont's birthplace. The piece notes that two of Puigdemont's close family were local majors, but it fails to mention that this could only have happened under Franco if they were enlisted as part of the "movimiento", or were local falangistas. This is all reasonably neutral information about his family. It does not mean that the man himself is a francoist. So why is all this information so sensitively ommitted? I have tried to introduce some of it with some serious references, but have been barred, and am told I'm a vandal. What's going on wikipedia? Why are you protecting a fugitive from justice? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.44.7.41 (talk) 19:20, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

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