Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:00, 24 November 2006

• /Controversies about 11M-2004:Sources in english
• Controversies about the 11M-2004:Proposed article
• New proposed core article
• /Atelier 3: Sources not accepted by an User
• /Proposed additions

Trains B‑class High‑importance

Trains Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Trains, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to rail transport on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. See also: WikiProject Trains to do list and the Trains Portal.TrainsWikipedia:WikiProject TrainsTemplate:WikiProject Trainsrail transport B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: "Looking into the eyes of terror". Grand Valley Lanthorn. April 1, 2004.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: "Spain aftershock: your say". The Sydney Morning Herald. March 18, 2004.

Chronological Archives
1 2 3 4 5 6

Disaster management Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Moving Forward On The RFC

Southofwatford 08:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC) I will try either later today or tomorrow to suggest a wording for an RFC that covers all the issues in dispute where I think outside comment will be helpful - I will post my proposed wording here first so that everyone can comment on whether they agree with it for submission. I am not proposing to try and find a wording that is completely neutral because we could be here 3 months arguing about that - the key objective is to represent all points of view. It may even be a better idea to present separate RFC's for separate issues. All suggestions are welcome on what to include.

Proposed topics:

1). Treatment of conspiracy theories, ask for opinions on how they should be handled - whether the approach we have tried of separating them into a controversies article is a valid approach. Definition of what is or is not a conspiracy theory

2). Treatment of sources - The El Mundo issues, on what grounds might it be acceptable to reject sources, how do we treat sources that are involved themselves in developments on what they are reporting i.e. where the source forms part of the story

3). How to describe the perpertrators in the main article

Randroide 09:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

1) Egyptian curse again. Seems it is our fate. Please define "conspiracy theory" to start talking with you about the issue.

2) Yeah, the same goes for Catalonian Nationalist media, "El País" and the SER (read:Suicidal terrorist in the trains) or the Indictment (read: Impossible self contradictory narratives).

3) We do not know who the perpetrators were were, so we can not "describe" them.

Southofwatford 09:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC) Well the simplest way to avoid the Egyptian curse is not to even try to find a wording that satisfies everyone, we put together a joint RFC but which contains a short statement on each issue from each editor who wants to contribute, describing their position. I also think it will be better to do separate RFC's on each contentious issue rather than mix everything together into one. That way I can talk about conspiracy theories, I still find the Wiki definition to be satisfactory, and you can talk about doubters or alternative explanations, or official versions. Then , as part of the process we can ask other editors what they think is the correct terminology.

Randroide 09:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC) Without a common wording we do not know what we are talking about. Communication is impossible. That´s the reason I do not employ any longer the "official version" expression, but the purely descriptive "Indictment". I suggest you to employ "doubters".

Southofwatford 09:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC) On the discussion page or in an RFC we can both use the terminology we choose to use. In the article we need a common wording, and the best way is obviously to refer to things directly as what they are; El Mundo, the indictment, the parliamentary commission etc. But outside of the article I continue to describe a conspiracy theory as what I believe it to be. Those who accuse the Spanish government of colluding with ETA in organising the bombings are not doubters by any conceivable use of the word.

Randroide :

1)If you want to know what are conspiracy theories you can go to http://en.wikipedia.org/Conspiracy_theories where you will find abundant information.

2)You said at some point that the difference of 11-M and the reason why we cannot apply the 9/11 pattern is that a major newspaper support the non-mainstream theories. So it is time to see if the comunity thinks that a single newspaper in a corner of the globe is enough to contradict the world class newspapers or if it only deserves the conspiracy theories article.

3)We do not know the perpetrators but we know that the mainstream of world class media asumes that they were islamists and that are the guys who are in prison accused and waiting for trial. El Mundo thinks that they are just innocent chaps so you can state this in the conspiracy (alternative) theories.

I understand that you have not found a solid evidence that world class media or any intelligence institution agrees in any way with El Mundo original lonely "investigations" and twisted revelations. Lets comunity comment how this mistery can happen (a world conspiration against El Mundo) and which treatment must give English Misplaced Pages to it. You are free to offer the thesis that "all the newspapers except El Mundo are written by the same hand" as you did above. --Igor21 10:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Randroide 10:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC) Look, Igor21: First answer my questions, and then I will answer yours. Thank you.

Randroide : I am not asking any questions to you since I perfectly know each single nuance of your position after the oceans of ink you regularly produce using your very well known squid tactics. I am stating my position regarding RFC. The answers we need are from the comunity to finally go out of this deadlock and proceed to a final version of the article that reflects the mainstream world class newspapers position, instead of the position of a single local newspaper (that is accusing living people and existing institutions of the most horrible crimes without any evidence except non-confirmed revelations and carefully worded insinuations).--Igor21 12:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Southofwatford 08:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC) Here is my suggested wording for the introduction to an RFC on the issue of how to handle conspiracy theories. What I propose is that each editor who wants to can attach their own personal "position statement" to the RFC, a short (1 or 2 paragraphs) summary of their opinion on this issue. This should not be seen as an opportunity to debate points made by other editors, any attempt to use it in that way means that it will not work. The aim should be that any outside editor reading the position statements gets a basic introduction to the different positions.

My proposed introduction statement: We invite comment from other Misplaced Pages editors on a series of issues which are holding up editing of the article on the 11th March 2004 Madrid train bombings. These issues have all been discussed at length on the article Talk page, to avoid confusing different topics we will deal with them in separate RFC’s. One of the main issues has been how to deal with “alternative explanations” or “conspiracy theories” surrounding these events (we are not even able to reach agreement on the terminology to use to describe these). An attempt has been made to separate the discussion of such theories into a new “Controversies” article, but this process has run into problems because the editors involved have not been able to agree on the line of separation between a straightforward neutral account of events, and the new controversies article. Below are position statements from the different editors involved in this discussion – we welcome all contributions and suggestions on how to handle this issue.

Southofwatford 10:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC) Here is my position statement - I count 279 words and I suggest we impose a voluntary limit of 300 words for each editor statement so that those who read the RFC are not overwhelmed by pages of text. Let me emphasise again that no statement should attempt to reply to that of another editor, if that starts to happen I withdraw my support for submitting an RFC.

In my opinion we are dealing here with an attempt to use Misplaced Pages as a platform for a political campaign. The conspiracy theories about the Madrid bombings accuse the current Spanish government of acting in collusion with ETA, and occasionally other agents such as the French or Moroccan secret services, in an attempt to remove the previous government from power. These theories have not arisen spontaneously from the work of intrepid investigative journalists; they are the result of a planned campaign involving supporters of the previous government and media groups whose motives are a mixture of the political, commercial and possibly personal. The serious accusations made by the conspiracy theorists are not backed up by positive evidence, the objective of the whole campaign is to try and insinuate and suggest government and ETA involvement by casting doubt on the judicial investigation which forms the basis of the forthcoming trial, expected to begin early next year.

In an attempt to accommodate this campaign, I have been in agreement with the proposal to create the new controversies page. However, I do not accept any equivalence between the conspiracy theories and the account of events which emerges from the judicial investigation; largely because the conspiracy theories do not stand independently on their own merits – they depend almost entirely on finding supposed faults with the judicial investigation. I believe that we should be able to present these theories within the political context that has produced them, and make clear their origin. In my opinion the main article on the bombings should include a short reference to the controversies and direct readers to the new page – and need include nothing else on the issue.

This would be my text : The key issue here it is not that the theories are completely unbelievable but the fact that all the international press ignores them. My idea is that it is imposible to construct a narrative that blends the point of view of the mainstream of intelligence services and world class media with the point of view of the conspirationists. So both things must be separated and the question is if we present the reason for these theories to exist which can be perfectly sourced or we limit to allow conspirationists to state whatever they want in their separate article. BTW, I do not think that controversy exists since is largely a unilateral discussion. Mainstream world society knows that was an islamist bombing and the small Spanish local group of conspirationist are not really answered except in wikipedia were they think that they deserve half of the space forcing other editors to argue endlessly what is the accepted truth and what are theories supported only by a minority of local media (minority even in Spain not to say worldwide).--Igor21 17:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Randroide 20:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC) My provisional RfC statement:

1. Allegations made by different media (spanish, british and american) about the shady and unclear issues around the 11 March 2004 Madrid train bombings belong in Misplaced Pages by simple application of Misplaced Pages policies.

Those sources belong because those allegations fit perfectly under WP:CITE, WP:VERIFY, WP:REF and WP:NOR. Trying to expel those sources from the article would be a flagrant violation of WP:NPOV.

• 1.1.My spanish sources are the second and fourth spanish newspapers: "El Mundo (Spain) and w:es:La Razón (España)"

• 1.2.My american and british sources for the same issues can be seen at here. Those sources are National Review, Times Online and The Guardian.

2. The doubters of the Indictment are a very wide spectrum of people supporting very different possitions.

• 2.1.The "softer" doubters (among them Pedro J. Ramírez) only point to allegued inconsistencies in the Indictment, avoiding the enunciation of any "alternative theory" about what happened.

Is up to my detractors to prove the opposite, and such proof does not exist. All their rantings about "conspiracy theories", without a single source provided, are simply a bag full of air.

El Mundo (Spain) investigations are "soft" doubters, and, by mere application of the definition, it is totally incorrect to call them "conspiracy theories", because they do not try to explain the "ultimate cause of an event".

• 2.2.Only the "harder" doubters ("Peones negros", for instance) expressely voice alternative theories about what happened (i.e., about if the bombings were perpetrated only by ETA, or by ETA and corrupt police officers, or by other countries secret services, etc)

Only the "harder" doubters could be called "conspiracy theorists", just as the Indictment could also be called a "conspiracy theory", if we apply consistently the definition of Conspiracy theory.

3. The Indictment and their supporting media are valid sources, but self-contradictory or simply unreliable.

This must be proved and explained to give full context for this issue: Without "El Mundo" and "La Razón" investigations the article would be POV, false and misleading.

Just some examples:

3.1. Falsehood uttered by a pro-Indictment source: The PRISA owned Cadena SER said on March 11th 2004 that three different sources assured to the SER that a suicidal terrrorist was in the trains. This lie proved later as a falsehood, but helped to change perceptions in those crucial hours (just before the election). *Source and quotation in spanish:"Tres fuentes distintas de la lucha antiterrorista han confirmado a la Cadena SER que en el primer vagón del tren que estalló antes de llegar a Atocha, iba un terrorista suicida".

3.2. Falsification perpetrated in the Indictment: A reference to ETA was deleted from a spanish police report by a spanish police chief .

3.2.1. The reference to this report was erased with Tipp-Ex correction fluid .

3.2.2. The policeman who made the falsification is accussed by a judge (thanks God there are still decent judges in Spain) .

This coverup was uncovered thanks to "El Mundo" investigations.

3.3. Self Contradiction in the Indictment:

--Larean01 11:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

1. Misplaced Pages does not attempt to characterise sources as reliable. That is up to the good faith of the editors. It is simply false that Misplaced Pages compells the use of a source just because its claims are in print or because of readership. As I mention repeatedly, The National Enquirer iGs NOT a reliable source, but it fulfills your criteria for a reliable source. You have not offered any counterargument to this.

2. It is false that the doubters are a wide spectrum of people supporting different positions. They are all anti-PSOE (antigovernment), usually virulently so, and are also politically close to the PP. On the contrary, the critics of the "doubters" do come from all sides of the political spectrum, with a majority of them being on the left.

2.1 To call Pedro J. Ramírez a "soft" doubter is disingenous. He has been on record several times saying there is little or no doubt that Police forces tampered with the evidence. Now, that IS a conspiracy theory, among other things because there is not a whiff of evidence for that claim.

2.2 You still have to explain why the indictment is a conspiracy theory (and El Mundo's distortions aren't!). You always ignore my arguments, going back to square one, repeating your arguments in your own particular version of Groundhog Day.

3. It is very disingenuous to try to dump together all the "pro-indictment" sources and try to blame all of them for the mistakes or manipulations of one of them. That is called "guilt by association" and it is a well-known fallacy. In particular, it is ridiculous to try to cast doubt on a judicial indictment because of the sins of a radio station.

Please, Randroide. If you do not answer my arguments this time I will start to think that you are not interested in a fair article, but in furthering your personal beliefs and political agenda.

--Larean01 19:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I have checked extensively how this kind of dispute is solved in Misplaced Pages. In all the familiar cases where there is an overwhelming majority of the relevant community of experts (be it scientific or judicial) that widely agree on a theory/factual explanation, that theory or explanation is given in the main Misplaced Pages article. "Alternative" (i.e. conspiracy) theories proposed by outsiders (meaning people outside the community of experts) are given much lesser attention, and are usually put together in a single section and/or in a secondary article. As far as I can see this applies to evolution theory, JFK assasination theories, and even more controversial subjects, like global warming.

I contend that the main article cannot be reduced to an account of undisputed facts, as one of the editors wants to do. This will make the article bland and uninformative, as few relevant aspects have not been challenged by conspiracy theorists. I also contend that neither the main article nor the Controversies article can give "equal time" to both sides. The judicial account of a crime, put together by the Police forces and the tribunals of a working democracy, must take precedence over biased and inaccurate journalist accounts. Giving equal time to 11-M conspiracy theories would be tantamount to giving equal time to creationism in an article about evolution theory.

The sources quoted by conspiracy theory proponents are suspect and do not meet Misplaced Pages standards in that they are not reliable . They can be shown to be factually wrong, self-contradictory, pursuing a political agenda and failing most relevant deontological journalism principles. They can be shown never to admit, correct or withdraw a factual error. The fact that they have a wide circulation is immaterial to their reliability. So do the National Enquirer or The Sun

Conspiracy theorists are making very serious accusations against living people without any evidence, running against the conclusions of the largest and most thorough criminal investigation in Spanish history, and against the accepted account held by all the police forces of the Western world, all of its political leaders and all major international news outlets. The only place conspiracy theories have in Misplaced Pages is as a social and political phenomenon, not as proponents of alternative and equally respectable explanations to what happened.

Lengthened intro

I lengthened the intro a bit, just mentioned that it was carried out by Islamic fundamentalists, not ETA, but that the early ETA accouncment by the government has been a source of much contraversy. I don't know much about the attacks, just noticed that the intro said nothing about who did it, or the election contraversy, so I read it and added a short version.

I was not 100% sure "losely ties" was really the relationship to the MICG, but that was the main impression I got from the article.

Also, it looks like your disputes on this article are about specific sources in specific subsections. Can someone please move the factual acuracy disclaimer to the specific etions which are under dispute? JeffBurdges 15:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The disputes are about who did it. There is a newspaper in Spain who says that was a conspiracy organized by Spanish police, ETA and the socialdemocrat party. Since in Misplaced Pages the sources are Holy, the conversation driffted to if a soucrce that says such a think can be considered a source -bearing in mind that international world class newspapers have completely ignored the possibilty of such conspiracy. Then we have a second area of dispute about the way that this theories must be reflected either 1)by mixing with the main text or 2)in a separate article written by someone who believes in it or 3)explaining why a group of people are doing what are doing inventing these theories. The discussion has reached a deadlock and we were preparing an RFC for help.

Regarding your change, I do not think is necesary to name the blaming of Mr. Aznar to ETA in the intro since is a local politics thing while the bombing is an international issue.--Igor21 15:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Randroide 16:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC) JeffBurdges, please , read /Controversies about 11M-2004:Sources in english.

Who made it is a hotly disputed issue, and the "islamist" autorship it´s not clear at all. We are trying to move all controversies to a different page, and who made it is a controversial issue.

In reality these controversies are unilateral since everybody knows what happened and nobody seirous bothers to answer the inane allegations of the conspirationists. Only the special structure of wikipedia is forcing us to argue because Randroide pretends that that this page of links is legitimation enough to say that the conspirative theories can be sourced. Since the page do no grows, we must understand that this limited and not compromised eco is all that such scoop has received outside Spain : all in all nothing.--Igor21 16:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Randroide 18:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC) Igor21 wrote: Since the page do no grows...

By Jupiter!. He uttered that "argument".

Igor21 has the bad habit of not answering my questions (vide supra), but I will ask him a new question anyway: Igor21, could you please point us to the Misplaced Pages policy that requires "expanding sources"?.

Sources are sources, d**n it!!!. I got my international sources talking about the shady issues about the Madrid bombings presented by El Mundo (Spain) . A "forever expanding pool" of sources is not required in Misplaced Pages.

Moreover: The page does not grow because I made my point: The controversies appear in the international media.

I do not need to present "a new dissident source every week", just for Igor21´s kicks and jiggles.

Misplaced Pages does not require expanding sources but sufficient sources. Because everybody saw first time that your extremely short list of international media -only tangencially naming the issue- cannot be taken as "international media echoing or at least debating El Mundo "investigations"", we thought that you would make it grow before coming back with your claims. However, here you are again waiving the same clearly insufficient list.--Igor21 19:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Randroide 19:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC) Sufficient or insufficient by what standard?.

By Misplaced Pages standards it is what it is required: Sources in newspapers and Ma¡gazines. Your "thinking" about what is or is not sufficiente is totally irrelevant.

Ok. Son can we now please proceed with the RFC to see if the community thinks that a local Spanish newspaper contradicting all the planet and a handful of loosy references of "El Mundo says" in a couple of international media are enough or not to embark wikipedia credibility? Thank you.--Igor21 19:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Randroide 20:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC) ...a "handful" of references from, so far, the second and fourth spanish newspapers ("El Mundo" and "La Razón"), the "Gaceta de los Negocios" economics newspaper, the National Review, The Guardian and the Times Online.

--Larean01 19:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Randroide: we have gone through this before. The second Spanish newspaper is probably between "Marca" and "As" (sports newspapers), not "El Mundo". And tabloid circulation elsewhere is no indication of quality reporting. Besides, your foreign sources DO NOT endorse conspiracy theories. They mention them, most of the time in a bemusedly critical way.

Randroide 19:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC) Hi, Larean. I was waiting for your statement to finish mine.

The second Spanish newspaper is probably between "Marca" and "As"

Sources, please. Your say so is not enough.

your foreign sources DO NOT endorse conspiracy theories

Do you really think that?. You must read all of them ,carefully. You are wrong. Yes, some are critical, but some are extremely sympathetical, like, for instance the National Review article.

It is a very sad thing to see adults wasting their time trying to present "El Mundo" as a tabloid.

--Larean01 11:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Source:

http://download.aimc.es/aimc/02egm/resumegm106.pdf

El Mundo is third after Marca and El Pais. If you include free press, it falls to the sixth place.

El Mundo in this instance acts as a tabloid. 100% as a tabloid. Its model is Charles Foster Kane, or William Randolph Hearst if you will. And it is even sadder to see intelligent adults wasting their time defending absurd conspiracy theories.

BTW, The National Review is a well-known politically-biased OPINION source.

Randroide 13:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC) Please, show me a single newspaper or magazine that is not politically-biased and does not include OPINION (ahhh...I copied this "opinion" from your latest post).

Thank you very much for the EGM study. It is very interesting and I learnt there what "La Razón" is NOT the fourth spanish newspaper. I was wrong about this issue. This is the good thing of working with rational and hard-working adversaries: You always learn new pieces of data.

Some issues:

• "Marca" is a sport newspaper, so it does not count but for Sports.
• Newspapers given for free do not count, they are like propaganda flyers in your meilbox. You could also start counting Jehovah's Witnesses publications and suddendly pro-Indictment sources circulation would suddendly look marginal.
• The EGM is notoriously anti-El Mundo . I will try to find the OJD report.
• The EGM study you linked was published breaching an spanish judge direct order . The non spanish reader may start to understand what kind of country is Spain where this things happen.

Consensus offer

Randroide 21:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC) I offer to write this text under "perpetrators":

Radical Islamic Cell inspired by Al-Qaeda. Disputed by some media.

...this is much better than to say nothing.

...and much, much better than the unqualified and misleading Radical Islamic Cell inspired by Al-Qaeda.

Please Randroide, may I suggest that you stop beating around the bush and proceed with the procedure? Your tactics could be considered very clever somewhere but here are starting to be absurd since everybody know you and what are you evading from.--Igor21 21:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not know. Please, tell me and tell everybody: What I am evading for?.Randroide 12:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Problem with the "Perp(s)" section

I am sorry, but I wish to let Admin know that when I noticed that the "Perp(s)" Section said "Unkowen" I attempted to change it to "Unknown Radical Muslim Terrorist Group" Because, let's face it, barring a few outlandish conspiracy theorists who still think that the Battle of Waterloo never happened if "Professor X" says it did not, it should be obvious that it was perpetrated by Radicalized Muslim Terrorists. However, for some reason there was no mention of the Perpetrator list when I got in, so I created it saying (|Perpetrator(s)=Unknown radical Muslim Terrorist Group). For some reason when I exited, the Perpetrator section vanished. I just wish to inform Admin about this and I am sorry about it. ELV (Unsigned intervention made by User talk:71.146.158.221, a.k.a. as User talk:71.146.133.208) Randroide 15:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It is certainly obvious and hopefully it will be possible shortly to state in the article but we must follow the procedure to get sure that the rights of outlandish conspirationists are not conculcated and their legitimate bizarre opinions are treated fairly. Please stand-by if you want to collaborate but be patient since we have here one of the most skilful conspirationists of the whole wikipedia and we expect some rabbits from the hat before truth can preside 11-M article. --Igor21 10:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

While I do know that it is important to state the Perps but to also address the Conspiracy theorists, I meant this thread to note that the Perp(S) Section has vanished from the databox. I am sorry for accidentally doin this, and if I would be informed on how to correct this, I would but it back on the databox. ELV

Randroide 09:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC) A tip, ELV: To sign type "AltGr" plus "4" fout times. I suggest you to read Misplaced Pages:Why_create_an_account?. The perps section was introduced without previous discussion and has been a continous source of disagreement. You should also explain me what do you mean when you talk about "Conspiracy theorists", because the Indictment is a conspiracy theory.

Apparently somebody removed it AGAIN! And this time it was NOT me. Also as to who I mean by conspiracy theorists, I mean some of the farther-out conspiracy theorists. I can understand perfectly SOME skeptcism, as from my review of the Basque terrorist's modous operandi, (speaking hypothetically here) had this been some of their handiwork, I would have had to say I would think that they went out of their way to make sure this was not placed on their doorstep, which is HIGHLY unusal for them, as usually they cannot stop gloating about their sick little "deeds." Do I put it past them? Not at all, it is just HIGHLY out of their usual operating procedure. Couple that witht the fact that the governmnet either a. Cannot ID one type of Explosive from another even in testing of the explosives (which I find VERY unlikely) or b. Lied about the explosive type used (which I find more likely.) What I meant by Conspiracy theorists (and yes, I may be only targeting the Extreme ones with this but oh well) the group that has gone around tossing all sorts of allegations around like A. A sympathiser to the Socialist Party of Spain planted it to discredit the People's Party political party, B. That a supporter of the People's Party planted the bomb to rally the nation around Anzar and the party, C. That English spies based in Gibraltar sneaked across the border and planted explovies to anger the Spanish against the Islamic Radicals and solidify Spanish-Allied relations, and I could go ON and ON, but you get the general idea. Kind of like the 9/11 "Truth" movement here in the US of A, a batch of people who agree that common sense is incorrect and that the Islamic Radicals were NOT responsible, but beyond that could not agree on anything else if their lives depended on it. And that is NOT an understatment in the least, if you look around the 03/11 and 9/11 Truth movement's websites. Also, I mentioned this before, but someone else deleted the Perp(s) section again.ELV

• Randroide, I ask you with due respect that you either deliver a new text for the RFC or accept the one that you already delivered above. --Igor21 18:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Southofwatford 18:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC) Igor21, I think you'll find that Randroide has been too busy making fresh complaints to administrators about your behaviour to concentrate on the RFC - we'll have to wait a bit longer.

Randroide 20:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC) Working on my RfC, fellas, working on it. Please feel free to add counter rebuttals to my statements if you see it neccesary. I do not want to play with the advantage of being the last one writing my statement. Try to add the references I am challenging you to produce or ad counter rebuttals.

Igor21: If you write all your future messages with the tone of tour last one, things will go much better in this page.

Southofwatford 20:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC) No Randroide, I made it absoluteley clear, and more than once, that this way of doing things would only have my support if editors explicitly avoided using their statements to attack the positions of other editors. It is clear from your reply to Larean01 yesterday that you were waiting to be last. If you choose to try and use that to your own advantage then you end the process. An RFC has to be neutral, I proposed a way of achieving neutrality without spending weeks arguing over wording; if you do not accept the same way of doing things as the other editors then as far I am concerned the RFC process ends here. The days of one rule for Randroide and different rules for the others are over. Your statement should not be a reply to the others, it should be a statement of your personal position on the issue

Randroide 09:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC) Are you sure, Southofwatford?.

On user conduct RfCs, do not create "disendorsement" sections on RfCs. If you disagree with something someone else has said, you may add your own separate statement explaining why you disagree.Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment

Could you please point me where is the guideline saying that Your statement should not be a reply to the others?. This is not a rethoric question. If that guideline really exists, I must read it carefully to write a proper statement. So far, I have not found that guideline.

Southofwatfor wrote: It is clear from your reply to Larean01 yesterday that you were waiting to be last. If you choose to try and use that to your own advantage then you end the process.

Of course I waited to be the last, due to a very simple reason: I must know what this RfC is about, because you, Users defending the Indictment, are changing your mind from week to week:

• One month ago "El Mundo" was a good source (albeit with some issues about some specific articles) and we were working towards the creation of a "core" article.
• Nowadays "El Mundo" is not good for you, guys, and the "corefication" of the main article is no longer accepted by you.

Southofwatford 10:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC) Randrioide, there is no point in quoting Misplaced Pages rules on this issue, I never claimed that what you are doing is against the rules - you always do the same. Do not confuse the right to do something with the obligation to do it, they are not the same thing. I made it clear that my support for the RFC was based on a degree of good faith, that nobody would try and take advantage of this way of doing things. Not surprisingly, you have decided that you do want to take advantage of this approach - you have the right to do so but the consequence is that I withdraw my participation, and endorsement, of this RFC. If you can convince the other editors involved to support you, then present the RFC as a political circus - I am not participating on that basis and you will have to make it clear that you do not have the consensus of the editors involved.

Randroide 13:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC) Southofwatford wrote: I made it clear that my support for the RFC was based on a degree of good faith

Good faith is supposed by default in Misplaced Pages, Southofwatford.

I must say the obvious: A Misplaced Pages RfC is a Misplaced Pages RfC, as defined in Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment, not as defined by the wishes of User:Southofwatford.

You can do as you wish. I will follow the guidelines presented in Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment.

If the other users want to adjust their statements after seeing mine or to add further commentaries, they are completely free to do so: New data or new arguments lead to new statements. For instance: Larean just teached me that "La Razón" is NOT, as I wrongly believed, the fourth spanish newspaper, so I must rewrite my statement.

Southofwatford 13:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC) Fine, I leave it in your hands. I withdraw my position statement from the RFC, you should make it clear in any RFC that you present that consensus between involved editors was not achieved.

Randroide 14:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC) Yes, you are right: Consensus was not achieved in submitting to User:Southofwatford wishes about what Southofwatford would like to see and to do not see in the RfC. Consensus was not achieved because Southofwatford withdrew from the RfC once I pointed him that I am going to follow Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment.

Nonetheless, I invite Southofwatford to come back to the RfC, but under Misplaced Pages guidelines, not under whises and whims from this of that User.

Southofwatford 18:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC) Well given that you have rejected the only proposal for structuring the RFC that was on the table, there is currently no RFC for me to come back to. I believe my proposal complied with the rules which you are busily waving in everyone's face - as is your custom. You have not demonstrated that it breaks any rules at all, but because you insist on having a special advantage unavailable to other editors you have prevented it from proceeding. Given this situation, the onus is clearly on you to present a counter-proposal which complies fully with the rules, both for you and for everyone else. If you find a way to do that which still leaves you in a privileged position then I will be very interested to see it. But until you or someone else makes a proposal I see no RFC.

Randroide 19:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC) I never said that you proposal did not comply with the rules, you said that mine did not. I am currently finishing my statement: I cite external sources, so my work is harder than yours. Please, be patient.

Southofwatford 07:49, 24 November 2006 (UTC) The issue of whether your statement is harder than anyone elses has no relevance. You have rejected the only existing proposal for wording and structure of the RFC. So until you or someone else proposes an alternative wording and structure there is little point in you continuing to work on your statement. I welcome your clarification on the rules and my proposal, I never said anything at all about your proposal because I haven't seen a proposal from you; all I have seen is your standard lecture on the ``rules``. I still see no RFC.

Randroide 09:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC) Look carefully for mi proposal above , please, in the Moving Forward On The RFC section. It is the only text thas uses big font. You can´t miss it. I must still check some references, so I stablished to myself the deadline to finish it on this sunday, so please be patient.

So until you or someone else proposes an alternative wording and structure there is little point in you continuing to work on your statement

You are wrong: There is no need for consensus in the wording for the RfC statement, so I will continue to work happily in my statement.

Write what you thing is proper and, please, stop asking for an unnecessary consensus.

Southofwatford 09:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC) Well I must be missing something because the only text I see with large font is that inside your proposed statement - the proposal for the RFC structure cannot be this statement. As for the wording of the RFC I can only assume that either you haven't read the rules on wording the RFC, or you imagine - as is often the case - that the rules do not apply to you; "Create a section for the RfC on the bottom of the article talk page with a brief, neutral statement of the issue" I am asking you for a proposed structure and wording for the RFC given that you have rejected the only proposal that has been tabled, consensus is necessary on the way to present the RFC. I am not talking about the content of individual editor statements, so lets see if you understand me this time. I am not going to waste my time writing anything else at the moment because you never know when another user may pop up and just reject the whole idea. I still see no RFC.

Randroide 09:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC) I beg your pardon, Southofwatford, I thought that you were talking about individul editor statements. Now I understand you.

This is my RfC brief, neutral statement of the issue, i.e. your previous statement with a modification.

We invite comment from other Misplaced Pages editors on a series of issues which are holding up editing of the article on the 11th March 2004 Madrid train bombings. These issues have all been discussed at length on the article Talk page, to avoid confusing different topics we will deal with them in separate RFC’s. One of the main issues has been how to deal with “alternative explanations” or “conspiracy theories” new newspaper articles about those events presenting new points of view. An attempt has been made to separate the discussion of such theories into a new “Controversies” article, but this process has run into problems because the editors involved have not been able to agree on the line of separation between a straightforward neutral account of events, and the new controversies article. Below are position statements from the different editors involved in this discussion – we welcome all contributions and suggestions on how to handle this issue.

• "Alternative explanations" is misleading: My sources do not point to "alternative explanations", only to allegued shortcomings and impossibilities in the current explanation.
• "Conspiracy theories" is POV.

Southofwatford 10:00, 24 November 2006 (UTC) It is simply not true or neutral to say that it is just about newspaper articles or "new" points of view. It is about accusations that have been made that the current Spanish government was involved in the bombings, my wording doesn't state that openly because I looked for neutrality but your's is just an open pretence. I reject this wording, but at least I don't wait until everything is almost ready to go before raising my objections - have you only just read my proposal this morning Randroide? I still see no RFC.

Intro thoughts

Is there any evidence for this ETA theory? Or is it just a popular conspiracy theory? I'd like to point out some things:

An intro really really should state (a) who has credibly caimed responcibiliy for the bombings, and (b) the terrorist organization affiliated with those convicted, and please be specific about their religion/ideology/nationality. Moroccan terrorist ain't the same guys who blew up the WTC. I'd avoid even mentioning al-Qaeda unless your sure about inspiration (the judge said it here right? maybe that is enough). Its much easier to be sure about who was convicted.

A conspiracy theory's popularity is itself sufficent reason for inclusion; however, not necessarily sufficent for inclusion in the intro, depending upon style. If you include conspiracy theories, you must also be prepared to do quite a lot more work explaining the evidence behind the standard theory, since conspiracy theories always try to have charismatic packaging. But you still don't need to include even a popular conspiracy theory in the intro.

As a comparison, it may help to chat about the John F. Kennedy assassination article. It's intro states that conspiracy theories are popular, but this is an understatment. JFK conspiracy theories are ubiquitous in the U.S. As a child growing up, you never even hear about the orthodox story except along with some conspiracy theories. I'd also like to point out that JFK's has very specific difficulties with the evidence for the official theory. Otoh, here the main conspiracy theory asks us to believe that police investigators planted specific evidence. JFK conspiracy theories need only accuse Warren comission of supressing some better evidence.

Anyway, good luck with it, I found both the article and your debates quite confusing. My instinct here is that this conspiracy theory deserves mention in the article, but does not deserve mention in the intro. But I simply don't know what impact the theory has in Spain. JeffBurdges 22:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Randroide 08:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC) Please read 11_March_2004_Madrid_train_bombings#Questions_over_the_type_of_explosive_used_in_the_bombs for a starter. The "islamist" trail is impossible acoording with Sánchez del Manzano declarations, because the "Islamists" only bought Goma 2 ECO.

My consensus proposal is "Perps: Islamists, blah, blah...according spanish judiciary, blah, blah...disputed by some media"

And, please, do not mix issues: To say and to prove that there is no solid proof of "islamist" autorship is NOT a "conspiracy theory" as far as you do not risk alternative explanations. "El Mundo" does not risk such explanations.

JeffBurdges wrote: As a comparison, it may help to chat about the John F. Kennedy assassination article...

Please note the BIG difference with this issue: The JFK assasination objections to the Warren commision conclussions did not appear as research pieces in the second US newspaper. Those objections only were voiced in books (I own a 1964 book in spanish with the major objections to the Offciacial Version).

JeffBurdges wrote: If you include conspiracy theories...

I did not include a single conspiracy theory. Please, ckeck it. I only inluded sourced objections to the Indictment.

Southofwatford 09:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC) El Mundo has called the bombings a "golpe de estado" (coup d'etat) which is a direct, but entirely unsubstantiated, accusation that there has been a conspiracy behind the bombings. They attempt at every opportunity to imply ETA involvement, again without any substantial evidence. They distort and occasionally manipulate statements to make them fit their allegations. They do not risk openly spelling out their allegations because they have no evidence for them and could easily end up in a delicate legal situation - but it is simply not the case that they do not support the conspiracy theories. All of this is well documented in the archive pages here.

The idea that something ceases to be a conspiracy theory because a newspaper reports it is bizarre and belongs in no definition of a conspiracy theory that I have seen - newspapers have of course widely reported the conspiracy theories on the JFK assassination and other conspiracy theories too. When I first became involved on this page Randriode made no objection to the use of the term "conspiracy theories", only when he realised that it might prejudice his case in some way did he begin to insist that they should be called something else - but calling a table a chair does not mean that it ceases to be a table.

JeffBurdges : So far there is not any single evidence.

In Spain there is a very small group that promotes this theories. There is a core of people with nothing to loose since they are unknown journalists who are the ones that sustain the conspiracy theory (the socialdemocrat party helped ETA in the bombing using infiltrated corrupted policemen and now is doing a cover-up). Around this core there is a group of people with more prestige who plays to say and do not say, insinuating and doing hedlines with supposed revelations that finish nowhere. And in the most external part -trying to not be stained-there are some polititians. The original goal of all this was to state that the elections were illegitimate. After so much time and with the new elections closer than the 2004, the mainstream of the right party (PP) has abandoned these theories completely. Unfortunately, many people to whom conspiracies are a hobby, continue with this in the Internet.

The debate is very simple. The majority of the editors want to follow the same system as in 9/11. To make an article with what happened following the police investigation and then to make another article where the conspiracy theories are named in a fair way. However, we have here Randroide trying to impede this to happen. He is very active and skillfull and has stopped truth for more than 3 months. He waves wikpedia rules and some references from the local Spanish newspaper who mantains the story alive (for reasons long to explain but fully known and sourceable) to block any progress. --Igor21 09:56, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

• B-Class rail transport articles
• High-importance rail transport articles
• All WikiProject Trains pages
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press
• Unassessed Disaster management articles
• Unknown-importance Disaster management articles