Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:32, 28 May 2019

A cookie for you!

Please have this cookie. Your edits have been in keeping with the best intent. Don't let other editors drag you down because they are seeking to push a certain POV. Keep up the good work! RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 16:19, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you

Hi, Wookian. Thank you for reverting the vandalism on my talk page. In fairness to the a*****e who posted it, I am overweight with way too many chins! -- Scjessey (talk) 14:05, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

My pleasure. Yeah, I could lose a lb or 20 myself. Wookian (talk) 18:19, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Notice of discretionary sanctions

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have recently shown interest in living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect: any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Misplaced Pages's policies, or any page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.

Template:Z33 Jytdog (talk) 14:23, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Note

• About this; you have notice of the DS above.

Please read WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:Controversial articles and think about them carefully with respect to what you are doing at the Jeong talk page. Jytdog (talk) 15:32, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

• About this you misrepresented what I wrote here and here. Do not misrepresent people. Please see WP:TPNO. Jytdog (talk) 15:42, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

FYI, I posted my latest reply before being aware that you added this section to my talk page. You said "check your talk page", so I checked my Talk page, and all I saw was the generic notice in the previous section, and assumed that was what you meant. Not sure what order of operations you followed, or whether I failed to refresh the Talk page correctly. On a side note, I am a little bit curious about why you would be making administrative warnings against me while engaged in debate with me. That seems unusual, but maybe it's not? Wookian (talk) 15:46, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

I have provided the warnings here, on your talk page, where they belong. See Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution#Resolving_user_conduct_disputes.

Per your edit count, while you have had an account for 6 years, you are an inexperienced editor, with only around 400 edits.

I am doing everything I can to let you know that you are on thin ice, and to be more careful. Jytdog (talk) 15:56, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

It would be nice if you would focus on the content, rather than on the participants in the debate. Instead of just telling me that it's untrue that you said a quote of the two tweets in question should include quotes of other third party/racist tweets (which is what your words implied - sorry, it just is), you could maybe re-state that original post I was responding to to avoid that implication. I am not as experienced in Misplaced Pages as you are, admittedly. However, my grasp of the English language is not necessarily inferior to yours, and I would like to cheerfully suggest that your post did in fact imply what I said it implied, to an ordinary reader. Wookian (talk) 16:04, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

At the talk page I am focused on content. Again per the section of DR, I am dealing with your behavior here. It does take time and effort to become familiar with the policies and guidelines and how the editing community uses them.

The community cooked up the idea of "discretionary sanctions" for good reason, and people are given notice of them for good reason.

Assuming it is "enough" to have a "grasp of the English langauge" while working on a subject under discretionary sanctions is unwise at best, and expresses actual disdain toward the intention of the community in setting them up and ensuring that people are given notice of them and understand them.

I have done my best to give you a heads up. You will do as you will. Jytdog (talk) 16:21, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Again, you're avoiding the question. Your post did imply what I said it implied. And by jumping to administrative sanction warnings instead of engaging on content, you are chilling discussion. I am pretty sure that is not what Misplaced Pages is supposed to be about. Look, I get that emotions run high in debate. Admins would be well advised to guard against the temptation to (ab)use the administrative sanctions system to bypass legitimate debate, wouldn't you agree? Wookian (talk) 16:25, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

My emotions are not high. You are on thin ice. You will be mindful of that, or not. I have no more to say here. Jytdog (talk) 16:38, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

(btw I am not an admin; am just saying that in case you believe I am.) Jytdog (talk) 16:38, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Oh, my mistake. If you are just an ordinary editor who resorted to threats of sanctions instead of engaging on content, when called out for suggesting a seriously POV-encumbered opinion without support from RS's, then that does make me breathe a sigh of relief. I was really worried there for a second. I really hope a Misplaced Pages admin would never behave as you are behaving. Wookian (talk) 16:42, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

You are not alone, there are a set of users putting DS warnings on the talk pages of pretty much everyone who supports including her tweets. Sort of how things work around here on contentious articles. You have made solid, articulate arguments inline with the big picture of what WP strives for, which is being a great encyclopedia. 2600:1700:1111:5940:D9F6:63D1:857A:104 (talk) 16:51, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, uh... "26". ;) Wookian (talk) 16:57, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

No one holds a grudge against 26...., but people remember Wookian. Sometimes it is easier to be anonymous and just try to improve WP, but other times it is a lot harder because you go into every argument with no credibility. This is, after all, the encyclopedia anyone can edit so it is fun to see over time when that is, and isn't, true. 2600:1700:1111:5940:D9F6:63D1:857A:104 (talk) 17:04, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Huh. That makes a lot of sense, unfortunately. It's also unfortunate that someone like Jytdog would post these sanction warnings, and then post a personalized sanction warning against me like he/she did above. I assumed he/she was an admin. I didn't know ordinary editors went around doing that kind of thing. It was definitely chilling. It's so much nicer when people focus on debating the subject matter rather than attacking/criticizing/threatening their debate opponents. Of course administrative sanctions need to exist, but... yeah, anyway. Wookian (talk) 17:14, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

• about this, I am giving you a chance to strike or amend your misrepresentation of arguments on the other side. Please me know if you intend to do so or not. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 21:09, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean. Please explain and be very specific. Satisfying this request of mine will require you to engage with the content rather than just accuse me of breaking rules without giving specifics. Verbatim quotes are very useful in this type of exercise. Wookian (talk) 21:15, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Added note: linking to that paragraph of mine is not specific enough, unless you are claiming that every single word there is a misrepresentation of others, which doesn't seem right. Wookian (talk) 21:18, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

I already warned you above about misrepresenting me and others. Your statement Your post (like many, many other posts on here) talks about "full interchanges", which as far as I can tell is a reference very much like Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster. Often mentioned by those who want to defend Jeong from "harm" (in one editor's words), but never produced for these two tweets. completely distorts the arguments on the other side from you and is, in addition, tendentious. You might find misrepresentation to be a useful form of argumentation elsewhere. It is not acceptable here. Jytdog (talk) 22:04, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

"Full interchanges" in that context suggests back and forth on Twitter. The two tweets under consideration were not part of Twitter threads. Your concern here is not warranted. Wookian (talk) 22:21, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

You also directly violate BLP in this diff by citing a source clearly labelled as opinion and repeating what it says as fact. As the BLP policy says explicitly, we do not treat content from opinion pieces as fact, but rather, if we use such sources at all, we attribute content generated from them. (see also the NPOV policy at WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV) Yet you wrote in that diff As my link indicates, the tweets are absolutely indefensible as fact. You can leave that if you like. If you don't fix that, that is also evidence for the TBAN.

It appears that instead of taking the notice of DS to heart and being more careful, you have become much less careful. That is your decision to make, of course. Jytdog (talk) 22:04, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

What you characterize as opinion here would be absorbed into the article as an obvious fact in a heartbeat if about half the editors in this discussion had final say, so that point is debatable. Saying that "dumbass fucking white people marking up the internet with their opinions like dogs pissing on fire hydrants" doesn't express racial animus is simply a very strained position. That I linked to an opinion piece is reasonable for you to note, however not as significant as you suggest. The reason the article can't absorb it as fact is that the strained interpretation is widely accepted, so it's disputed what the facts are here. Wookian (talk) 22:21, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your replies. Jytdog (talk) 22:38, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

• Note: This is not accurate advice. The coatracking has not gone unnoticed either. You are skating very close to a topic-ban. Please reconsider your style of participation on the talkpage. Abecedare (talk) 21:26, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

You haven't told me what was inaccurate in my post. Can you explain? Wookian (talk) 21:28, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Regarding your coatracking allegation, that seems like an opinion. This is a highly contentious change being debated for the article, and I am one of many who propose adding the tweet quotes. We have collectively made strong arguments for the tweets' inclusion based on following the best examples of neutral, journalistic RS's. You and others are entitled to disagree, however please respect that yours is not the only opinion. My opinion may not carry the day, but I don't need to be banned for expressing it, and I'd respectfully suggest that participating in my side of the debate shouldn't be considered coatracking. If that's not what you meant, then apologies, and feel free to explain. Wookian (talk) 21:35, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

The inaccuracy in your advice is that wikipedian's opinions about the subject is irrelevant and liable to be redacted. Repeated failure to understand that is likely to lead to sanctions. Abecedare (talk) 21:44, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying. I said "you are entitled to your opinion" in that post to be friendly and tactful in my lead up to the point I was making, which was that the encyclopedia need not (and should not) voice any opinion on the question. I did not mean to imply that sharing editors' opinions was a good idea on Misplaced Pages. I hope you can appreciate (a) my attempts at friendliness and tact, and (b) my main point that the Misplaced Pages article should not editorialize on the topic being discussed. The thrust of my post was already in line with your reminder here, and I'll try to clean up the loose strings to be in line as well. Reasonable? Wookian (talk) 21:58, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Well, I tried to go back and apply some strikethrough to that paragraph to make it clear that nobody is entitled to express personal opinions on Misplaced Pages. However the problem I ran into was that my paragraph already makes it clear (if you keep on reading and don't stop on the first clause) that such opinions are legitimate in Misplaced Pages discussion only as derived from the sources. So on further reflection I would suggest that Abecedare was mistaken in his/her reading of this paragraph. Wookian (talk) 22:05, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Notice that you are now subject to an arbitration enforcement sanction

The following sanction now applies to you:

Topic-banned from any Sarah Jeong-related content or discussion (in any namespace) on wikipedia

You have been sanctioned for disruptive and tendentious editing and WP:BLP, WP:TPG, and WP:AGF violations on the article talk-page and other venues

This sanction is imposed in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator under the authority of the Arbitration Committee's decision at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Editing of Biographies of Living Persons#Final decision and, if applicable, the procedure described at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions. This sanction has been recorded in the log of sanctions. If the sanction includes a ban, please read the banning policy to ensure you understand what this means. If you do not comply with this sanction, you may be blocked for an extended period, by way of enforcement of this sanction—and you may also be made subject to further sanctions.

You may appeal this sanction using the process described here. I recommend that you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template if you wish to submit an appeal to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. You may also appeal directly to me (on my talk page), before or instead of appealing to the noticeboard. Even if you appeal this sanction, you remain bound by it until you are notified by an uninvolved administrator that the appeal has been successful. You are also free to contact me on my talk page if anything of the above is unclear to you. Abecedare (talk) 22:33, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

•  Administrator note the sanction has been precipitated by this edit in which you again indulged in the coatracking and subtly-phrased BLP violation you had recently been warned about. Abecedare (talk) 22:33, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

"Democrat talking points"

I find it exceedingly odd that you used an epithet to describe a group of people, and when editors corrected you you insisted you meant no offense yet you refused to do anything about it. What's the meaning of this? Are you saying that you believe it's not an epithet, and you stand by your choice of words? Do you realize that you don't have to agree it's an epithet in order to acknowledge that some people are offended by it and it interferes with the consensus-building process? You're free to chalk it up to excessive liberal sensitivity--off-wiki, of course. R2 (bleep) 21:37, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for visiting. I disagree that I used an epithet. The word "Democrat" is sometimes used as an adjective, and sometimes not. I agree with you that the phrase "Democrat Party" is not normal usage - and in fact I didn't use that phrase, per se. It is "exceedingly odd" (to borrow your words) that you keep on falsely implying that I employed that specific phrase in our recent conversation. If you read through the article you cited you will learn that in the English language it is very common to employ nouns in an adjective role in a sentence, a phenomenon which according to Ruth Walker of the CSM is growing in modern usage. Her guidance (per that article) is that Democrat is usually a noun - implying sometimes it can be adjective.

My advice to you is when you find yourself in a debate situation, focus on the topic under discussion, and don't allow yourself to be distracted by a temptation to call out someone you disagree with for something irrelevant. There's a stereotype that leftists can't engage in debate without calling their debate opponents racists, Nazis, and bigots. I am not saying that you are a leftist or that you exemplify that stereotype, just mentioning it as an extreme case of the logical fallacy I'm talking about - and it is indeed a logical fallacy that impedes reasoned, productive debate of the kind that actually seeks consensus. Wookian (talk) 22:20, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

I am not interested in engaging in "reasoned, productive debate" with editors who insist on wikilawyering away their use of polarizing epithets, intentional or not. If a "leftist" were to call a fellow editor a racist, a Nazi, or a bigot on WP, they would be swiftly sanctioned. Referring to "Democrat talking points" similarly poisons the well, just to a lesser extent. R2 (bleep) 22:30, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

And by the way, "leftist" is another one of those words that some people have been using the last few years to put down people they disagree with politically. I suggest you learn how to use more inclusive language before your comments end up biting you in the butt. You're free to talk about talk about "leftists" bringing up "Democrat talking points" on Twitter or your discussion forum of choice, but not here. R2 (bleep) 22:36, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Do you think speaking disparagingly of the "right wing" or of Trump supporters falls under the same category as what you characterize as disparagement of Democrats or leftists? For example, if one speaks negatively about "right wing media," should that be OK on Misplaced Pages? Curious for your thoughts on this. Wookian (talk) 23:04, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Speaking negatively about the "right wing media" isn't the same thing as speaking disparagingly of Trump supporters. The former is fine, the latter is bad. R2 (bleep) 05:32, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

That's an interesting perspective, and I don't understand your thought process here. Are you equating "right wing" with fascist or something? How is it OK to consider "right wing" objectively bad? (Or am I misunderstanding you, in which case I'm happy to be corrected?) Wookian (talk) 05:47, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

No, the distinction is between "media" and one's fellow editors. R2 (bleep) 22:46, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

That makes sense. Thanks for explaining. Wookian (talk) 22:50, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Admingate, lol.

Not asking for you to get involved just thought you might like to see what youre up against. https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Shinealittlelight#12_year Orange Man Bad! Happy wikiing!Batvette (talk) 20:32, 28 May 2019 (UTC)