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Section sizes Section size for Donald Trump (88 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 9,347 9,347 Early life and education 3,619 3,619 Personal life 19 5,044 Family 1,340 1,340 Health 3,685 3,685 Business career 149 35,734 Real estate 4,555 15,954 Manhattan and Chicago developments 6,168 6,168 Atlantic City casinos 3,610 3,610 Clubs 1,621 1,621 Licensing the Trump name 1,364 1,364 Side ventures 7,287 7,287 Foundation 5,025 5,025 Legal affairs and bankruptcies 2,315 2,315 Wealth 3,640 3,640 Media career 3,452 5,107 The Apprentice and the Celebrity Apprentice 1,655 1,655 Early political aspirations 4,690 4,690 2016 presidential election 18,430 18,430 First presidency (2017–2021) 633 177,243 Early actions 2,743 2,743 Conflicts of interest 3,367 3,367 Domestic policy 21,318 21,318 Race relations 6,232 6,232 Pardons and commutations 2,574 2,574 Immigration 3,086 20,394 Travel ban 4,347 4,347 Family separation at the border 6,269 6,269 Mexico–United States border wall and government shutdown 6,692 6,692 Foreign policy 2,859 35,965 Trade 2,517 2,517 Russia 4,221 4,221 East Asia 21 10,653 China, Hong Kong, Taiwan 4,914 4,914 North Korea 5,718 5,718 Middle East 23 15,715 Afghanistan 3,042 3,042 Israel 2,637 2,637 Saudi Arabia 2,229 2,229 Syria 3,797 3,797 Iran 3,987 3,987 Personnel 8,705 8,705 Judiciary 4,174 4,174 COVID-19 pandemic 291 31,456 Initial response 7,681 7,681 White House Coronavirus Task Force 5,253 5,253 World Health Organization 2,673 2,673 Pressure to abandon pandemic mitigation measures 7,799 7,799 Political pressure on health agencies 2,690 2,690 Outbreak at the White House 2,666 2,666 Effects on the 2020 presidential campaign 2,403 2,403 Investigations 1,079 26,084 Financial 3,111 3,111 Russian election interference 6,491 6,491 FBI Crossfire Hurricane and 2017 counterintelligence investigations 2,573 2,573 Mueller investigation 12,830 12,830 First impeachment 10,200 10,200 Second impeachment 3,398 3,398 2020 presidential election 34 24,158 Loss to Biden 6,902 15,669 Rejection of results 8,767 8,767 January 6 Capitol attack 8,455 8,455 First post-presidency (2021–2025) 5,018 34,695 Business activities 2,382 2,382 Investigations, criminal indictments and convictions, civil lawsuits 630 27,295 FBI investigations 5,703 5,703 Criminal referral by the House January 6 Committee 693 693 State criminal indictments 2,969 2,969 Federal criminal indictments 5,378 5,378 Criminal conviction in the 2016 campaign fraud case 6,135 6,135 Civil judgments 5,787 5,787 2024 presidential election 15,072 15,072 Political practice and rhetoric 8,048 47,246 Racial and gender views 9,377 9,377 Link to hate crimes 4,730 4,730 Conspiracy theories 3,318 3,318 Truthfulness 10,483 10,483 Social media 5,810 5,810 Relationship with the press 5,480 5,480 Assessments 18 6,969 Public image 4,525 4,525 Scholarly 2,426 2,426 Notes 136 136 References 30 30 Works cited 18 11,906 Books 3,256 3,256 Journals 8,632 8,632 External links 5,431 5,431 Total 404,857 404,857

Highlighted open discussions

• #Trim second paragraph in lead
• #RfC: oldest and wealthiest
• #RfC: False statements

• v
• e

NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:
] item
To ensure you are viewing the current list, you may wish to purge this page.

01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 7 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Misplaced Pages's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017, upheld by RfC July 2024)

25. In citations, do not code the archive-related parameters for sources that are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (RfC October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (RfC October 2021) Amended after re-election: After his first term, scholars and historians ranked Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history. (November 2024)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias, optionally using its shortcut, WP:TRUMPRCB.
2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

66. Omit {{infobox criminal}}. (RfC June 2024)

67. The "Health habits" section includes: "Trump says he has never drunk alcohol, smoked cigarettes, or used drugs. He sleeps about four or five hours a night." (February 2021)

RfC: oldest and wealthiest

Should the lead section mention that Trump is the "oldest and wealthiest" president? — JFG 15:03, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

The current, longstanding phrase in paragraph 2 of the lead includes:

He became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency, and the first without prior military or government service.

I would suggest replacing this with:

He became the first president without prior military or government service.

In recent informal discussions, some editors have said those qualifiers are unimportant statistics best left to specialized articles such as List of presidents of the United States by age and List of Presidents of the United States by net worth instead of the lead section of Trump's BLP. It was also argued that "oldest" is ageist and "wealthiest" is vulgar, and that it all was "irrelevant trivia". In support of the inclusion, it was argued that those facts were well-covered during Trump's campaign, and that similar statistics appear in other presidents' biographies. This RfC aims to resolve the disagreement. — JFG 15:03, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Survey: oldest and wealthiest

Please express your preference with Keep to preserve the status quo or with Delete to remove the "oldest and wealthiest" qualifiers. A brief rationale is welcome here. Longer arguments should go to the #Discussion: oldest and wealthiest section.

• Delete - I remember "oldest" and "wealthiest" were talking points during the election, but I honestly don't think they are biographically significant. Nor are they defining characteristics of his presidency. This is exactly the kind of trimming I would like to see more of in this article. Less is always more. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:21, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Delete – While Trump's lack of military or government experience is relevant to his presidency, and apparently unprecedented in the USA, his age and his wealth are mere trivia. Reagan was old too, and Washington was filthy rich for his day. — JFG 17:19, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Delete not at all defining characteristics and not lead-worthy, especially compared to his actions in office, though including in article body wouldn't be so bad. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 17:41, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Keep to preserve the status quo, no real reason to mess with a long-standing 2 year norm and what little stability this article has. Also, oldest and wealthiest seem to follow precedents of identifying characteristics in past presidents such as age remarks for Ronald Reagan or youth and religion of John F. Kennedy. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:00, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

* Keep - this is interesting information. He is a lot older than his immediate predecessors (though only slightly older than Reagan was as President). He also seems to be a lot wealthier than other President, according to the linked table. This is worth noting.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:04, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

• Delete on second thoughts. These are simply relative measures that will be out of date sooner or later. He is not likely to be the oldest President for long, given the increases in longevity. Wealth is hard to measure over time, and this is not particularly notable.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:06, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
• Keep - There is a long tradition to identify presidents according to records they hold in regards to their presidency. Ronald Reagan was widely reported to be the oldest back then, James Buchanan as the only bachelor to hold the office, John F. Kennedy as being the youngest to be elected and the only Catholic to be president, James Garfield as the last to be born in a log cabin etc. This sort of trivia exists for most presidents. One argument for deletion is that this information is well known to most readers because they refer to the current president, whose wealth and age are widely discussed in the media, but removing it now for being banal only to add it a few years later, when the information won't seem as obvious sounds unnecessary to me. PraiseVivec (talk) 16:05, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Delete per JFG. Gandydancer (talk) 17:08, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Delete - trivia. _Talk 📧 18:30, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Keep. The article Inauguration of Donald Trump conspicuously doesn't mention it, but that is not a reason to remove it here, because Presidency of Donald Trump#Transition period and inauguration mentions it (it is a WP:Summary style article). If anything, the Inauguration article should be changed to mention it in its lead. I believe that it should be kept here when similar leads, most notably that of Ronald Reagan, include such information. wumbolo ^^^ 21:12, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
• Keep - Although Reagan was much more well known for being the oldest president than Trump was, it still keeps things simple for the reader. The statements are neither trivial, nor do they add unnecessary fluff to the article that isn't notable or noteworthy.—Mythdon (talk • contribs) 02:43, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
• Delete. Neither of these items has received nearly as much attention in the reliable sources as the rest of the content in the lead section. I understand these superlatives have historical significance, but I highly doubt Trump will be known in 5, 10, 50 years for being the wealthiest or oldest president. He will likely be known for bringing his business background to the White House, but that's something substantially different. To be clear, however, I fully support having this material in the body of our article. R2 (bleep) 19:37, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
• Delete - Wealth qualifier is unconfirmed. No reliable source. Gerntrash (talk) 03:01, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
• Keep Oldest but delete wealthiest (Summoned by bot) His age is undeniable, his wealth is in dispute. Coretheapple (talk) 18:38, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Discussion: oldest and wealthiest

@JFG: - some editors have opined that "oldest" is ageist and "wealthiest" is vulgar - Not to put too fine a point on it, but I don't see more than one editor saying either. I'd ask that you edit that for accuracy. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:20, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

You are right, and in fairness only one editor highlighted the comparison with Reagan, Kennedy and Roosevelt's biographies. The point is to show that those were arguments advanced in the discussion. I'll edit to avoid referring to a particular editor or group thereof. — JFG 15:27, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

• Comment I think oldest should be included because it was a common description for WH Harrison and Reagan. The "prior military or government service" is clumsy. All previous presidents had held either elected office as a congressman, senator or governor, or had served in the Cabinet or were generals. If Trump had worked as an election official, or had been in the National Guard, his lack of experience would still be relevant. Also, not sure if we was the wealthiest, particularly if inflation is taken into account. We don't even know if he has a positive net worth. TFD (talk) 20:59, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

I think "prior military or government service" was used in the media at the time. Does "government service" have a special meaning for Americans? Because I would have thought "military service" was "government service", and "government service" could include working as a clerk in the sanitation department.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:31, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I vaguely recall some discussion about this. Military service may be government service in some sense, but that doesn't mean Americans would interpret the term that way. We would normally think of people working in city halls, state capitals, and Washington, not in military bases and foreign countries. The military take direction from their government but serve their country, and they are not the same thing. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:47, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I also vaguely recall a discussion but I think it was more about whether what elected officials do should be called "service." Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 19:37, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps we could lift this ambiguity by replacing "service" with "experience". The target articles is called List of Presidents of the United States by previous experience. — JFG 19:51, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I rephrased the sentence to make it adhere more closely to the sources. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 19:37, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

• I think, in general, statements about the "oldest" should be avoided. Given the steady increase in human longevity, we should expect US Presidents to be increasingly older and to live longer (like Jimmy Carter). This is not notable and not worth noting. However, in Trump's case he is significantly older than Obama etc. There has been speculation that this could be a factor in his Presidency, and he could be or become medically unfit.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:40, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
  • @Jack Upland: There'll be older presidents sure, but if we're just going to have a list of presidents by age anyway, we might as well make mention of it in the current president's article. It's more about simplicity than anything in my opinion. It's not like the US presidents articles are filled with tons of trivia as is.—Mythdon (talk • contribs) 02:47, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
• Delete I think those terms shouldn't stay in the paragraph, because belongs to the Peacock terms and afect to the neutral point of view.--AnbyG (talk) 08:43, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Is there a way to prevent auto-archive of this section? starship.paint (talk) 05:03, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Done. See {{DNAU}}. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:18, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

RfC: False statements

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A recent discussion was archived without reaching a definite conclusion. Based on comments from various editors there, I am formally suggesting a change of the current wording, which was selected in the prior RfC about this subject, and is in my opinion unnecessarily wordy. — JFG 15:18, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Current version:

Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics.

Proposed version:

Fact-checkers have documented an unprecedented number of false or misleading statements during Trump's campaign and presidency.

— JFG 15:18, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Amended proposal:

Fact-checkers have documented that Trump made an unprecedented number of false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency.

I am putting forward this amended proposal following remarks by several editors in the first day of the RfC. — JFG 11:14, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Survey: false statements

Please express your preference to Support or Oppose the proposed change, with a brief rationale. Longer arguments should go to the #Discussion: false statements section.

• Oppose - Trump's falsehoods are a defining characteristic of his presidency. Without gazing too deeply into the crystal ball, I think the Trump presidency will forever be associated with an astonishing level of mendacity. As such, I like the way the existing text spells this out a bit more assertively. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:34, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

  What happened to Less is always more? Seriously, I think a shorter sentence is more impactful in asserting the issue. — JFG 15:39, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Not at the expense of missing something important, obviously. Nothing is more important to Trump's biography than the thing that has defined him, and that's the fact that he likes to tell porky pies. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:05, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

In your proposed version the issue is that someone somewhere made a whole bunch of false or misleading statements while Trump was president. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 10:54, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. I have addressed this deficiency in the amended proposal above. — JFG 11:18, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

@JFG: Still oppose, I'm afraid. The existing text remains superior. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:38, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

• Too soon/Oppose - The passage in question is the result of an RfC that was open for more than a month a mere few months ago, focused exclusively on that little bit of content, and received over 10,000 words from over 30 editors. One of the precious few editors willing to spend their time doing uninvolved closes spent a considerable amount of it assessing that consensus and writing the close. The length of the passage was pointed out at the beginning of the proposal for it, lest anyone fail to consider it, and yet the passage received wide support. Thus the length argument has been duly rejected and it's not constructive to raise it again hoping for a different outcome. This is not how we should be spending our limited time. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:47, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - The proposed wording obscures the fact that Trump made the false statements. That deviates far from almost every reliable source that has reported on the subject. We must be clear and direct. - MrX 🖋 16:22, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
  • I also oppose the amended proposal because it shifts the focus to fact checkers. I would support Neutrality's proposal, or something like "Trump has made an unprecedented number of false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency." - MrX 🖋 11:41, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support The laundry lists of Trumps alleged deceptions is what is unprecedented.--MONGO (talk) 17:55, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose for the reasons states by Scjessey, Mandruss, and MrX, but I would favor a shorter "Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency, at a level unprecedented in American politics" if someone proposed that. Neutrality 18:00, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Neutrality - the statement "at a level unprecedented in American politics" would have to be attributed, otherwise we'd be treading in SYNTH territory or opinion rather than fact. The kind of coverage Trump has gotten is what's unprecedented, otherwise I would imagine the same could be said of a few former presidents. _Talk 📧 18:04, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

No, the reliable sources (not opinion pieces) directly support the "unprecedented" language, and this is a matter of fact rather opinion. Neutrality 17:39, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support — the current version attributes the assessment of unprecedented mendacity to the media, which plays into the "fake news" narrative (itself mendacious), while the proposed version attributes the assessment to fact-checkers. That said, Neutrality's proposed language would be even better. soibangla (talk) 18:08, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Doesn’t matter — Devoting so much contributor time to trivial matters like this contributes to outsiders’ perceptions of Misplaced Pages as largely dysfunctional on controversial subjects. Time to move on. Greg L (talk) 18:59, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. Too vague. I support Neutrality's version over both of the proposed versions by OP. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:12, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - let’s not revisit it yet again and so soon. The change in portrayal also seems unnecessary and not preceded by groundwork. I think lead edits like this one should be a discussion first to show interests and concerns, not this every time jump straight to an A/B choice RFC that has not done substantial prep work in TALK. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:30, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support — the new version is shorter, to the point, and more neutral.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:23, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per reasons stated by MrX, Scjessey, Mandruss, and Soibangla. I also think that Neutrality's version would be even better. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 10:50, 26 May 2019 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 17:43, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Comment – Following several remarks about the clarity of the sentence, I have amended the proposed text. @Scjessey, Mandruss, MrX, Neutrality, Snooganssnoogans, Markbassett, and Space4Time3Continuum2x: Could you reconsider your !votes in light of that? — JFG 11:17, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

No. The current longer version is accurate while ascribing the conclusion "unprecedented" to fact-checkers is not. I don't think that at this stage we need to point out that "fact-checkers documented" and "the media described" but, if we do it, we should do it accurately. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 13:32, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

This amended proposal also does not work for me for the reasons that Space4Time addressed above. I prefer my proposal above. Neutrality 14:45, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

No, since mine is a process objection. The hard-won consensus content should be considered good enough that we can better spend this time on other things. That will always be my position in situations like this. Thanks for the ping. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:45, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support for conciseness. — JFG 11:22, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

  I would also support "Media and academics have documented that…", per discussion below following Starship.paint's comments. — JFG 08:41, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

• Strong oppose to above proposed version - to say that Fact-checkers ... documented ... an unprecedented number is inaccurate. As one can see from the sources already in the article at Donald Trump#False statements (that's 305-315 at the time of this post, none of the sources describing unprecedented are fact-checkers. / / / / / / / Rather, they are academics or the media. I would instead add to the lede that The statements have been documented by fact-checkers; academics and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. Alternatively, Neutrality's version is also okay. starship.paint (talk) 11:34, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

  After discussion with JFG below in the Discussion section, a version I would support is Media and academics have documented that Trump made an unprecedented number of false and misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. starship.paint (talk) 08:39, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support - Honestly, I don't think the difference is that large between the two version, but while we're here, the proposed version has a small edge over the current one. This is mainly because it's more concise and because saying that something "was described by the media" gives fodder to the "fake news" crowd who will claim that this is a conspiracy against the president by the news media, rather than demonstrable and well documented facts. PraiseVivec (talk) 15:58, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support - it says what needs to be said succinctly and in compliance with NPOV. _Talk 📧 16:49, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - Neutrality offers a good choice for wording and Starship gives some good advise as well. Gandydancer (talk) 17:13, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support - It's important to stay neutral. The current way seems like it's "Bashing" Trump. I don't care if you like or hate the man, the wording needs to be neutral.Gregnator (talk) 22:06, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

• Account^ created on the day the vote was cast. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - current wording is clearer.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:24, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - If the wording must be more precise, Neutrality's proposal is the most favorable and accurate. Teammm 
  _email 01:56, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support - the amended wording is less wordy and more neutral; yet still tries to convey the same meaning without trying to color the reader's opinion.—Mythdon (talk • contribs) 02:38, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support. Conveys the same information more concisely and with more punch, which is always a good thing in such a dense article. Also slightly reduces the Trump-versus-the-media framing, which is contrary to our core policies. R2 (bleep) 19:15, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose: the original language is preferable; it's less weasely and matches sources better. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:54, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. I prefer the original wording. The new proposal obscures the fact that Trump made the false statements, as noted by MrX. --Tataral (talk) 03:04, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - The original wording looks to reflect the sourcing. — Rhododendrites \\ 12:57, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose – The section itself needs rewriting for less-wooden style, to indicate depth of issue without details and statistics that already have an article devoted to them. Trump’s cavalier attitude toward facts, in the real estate development scene (Bonwit Teller site, Trump International Toronto) as well as during his presidency, could be summarized with one or two full-length sentences.Jessegalebaker (talk) 03:52, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose 2600:1702:2340:9470:D968:91F2:DF40:9D92 (talk) 16:19, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
  • - Note: 2600:1702:2340:9470:D968:91F2:DF40:9D92 has made few or no other edits outside this article. _Talk 📧 17:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
• (Summoned by bot)Support as it's more concise. While I agree that stripped of context and put side by side, the new version seems less strongly worded because Trump is not the subject noun of the sentence, keep in mind that this sentence is currently buried in the middle of a paragraph where every other sentence begins with either "Trump" or "He" (meaning Trump). _signed, Rosguill 04:46, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Discussion: false statements

JFG, you made this proposal. Can you explain your decision to limit the description of an unprecedented number to fact-checkers, when the body of the article (and the sources) doesn't actually say that fact-checkers have said that? starship.paint (talk) 11:49, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

The original sentence says three things: 1) fact-checkers have documented a bunch of false and misleading statements by Trump; 2) the magnitude and raw count of false and misleading statements is unprecedented; 3) media have been pounding on this issue. My proposed version aims to simplify this state of affairs, and the original long-winded phrase, by focusing on points 1 and 2. You raise the issue that it's only media and academics that have used the "unprecedented" qualifier, I wasn't aware of that, and I'm pretty sure we can find fact-checker sources that use similar language. If I'm mistaken, then perhaps we should replace "unprecedented" with some other qualifier (staggering? unusual? unfathomable? just large?), but that would be a different discussion. — JFG 19:39, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I understand you want to simplify the sentence, but it seems it has lost its original meaning. I think fact-checkers are a subset of the media, and I don’t think there is very many of them that actively track Trump, probably less than seven? So I don’t see why we need to focus on fact-checkers when the wider media, plus the academics, have already given their descriptions. That’s already assuming you can find enough fact-checker sources to establish DUE weight. I note that there are two fact checker sources above (Kessler/Toronto’s Dale) but instead of putting unprecedented in their voice, they chose to quote other people. starship.paint (talk) 23:27, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I think it’s basically three stating overall totals - Politifact of Tampa Bay Times, FactCheck.org of Annenberg center, and the Fact Checker of the Washington Post. The Toronto Star is also a player at a lower prominence. Not an really documented in detail or described methods. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:27, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Well okay, but if you were to look below, the sources in this article saying unprecedented aren't these three publications. starship.paint (talk) 02:40, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

@Mythdon: - could you read the below comment, thank you. starship.paint (talk) 09:39, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

@Soibangla, Jack Upland, PraiseVivec, Atsme, and Gregnator: - per your support votes, have you guys actually checked this article and the sources as to whether JFG's version is even accurate? In the sources from the article, which you can find below, they do not say Fact-checkers ... documented ... an unprecedented number. starship.paint (talk) 01:27, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

That’s a good catch, hadn’t noticed that. I’m striking my vote for now. soibangla (talk) 03:11, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Here's the academic sources for unprecedented: paper by Carole McGranahan, quote from "historians", quote from Michael R. Beschloss, quote from "White House scholars and other students of government" and George Edwards, quote from Douglas Brinkley, paper by Heidi Taksdal Skjeseth, paper by Donnel Stern. Which of these are fact checkers? starship.paint (talk) 01:52, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Here's the journalists / writer for media sources for unprecedented: Chris Cillizza, Susan Glasser, Maria Konnikova. Which of these are fact checkers? starship.paint (talk) 01:52, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: I hear you. So would you support "Media and academics have documented that Trump made an unprecedented number of false and misleading statements during his campaign and presidency"? I kept fact-checkers in there because they were prominently featured in arguments during the prior RfC. I'm personally fine putting Trump's statements in wikivoice instead of attributing them to anybody, but that would surely get much-stronger pushback. It's hard to achieve neutrality without weaseling. — JFG 11:49, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

@JFG: - I would support that. It does reflect the current body. By the way, I just found one fact-checker source on his unprecedented falsehoods as a presidential candidate. If you restart this ... consider wikivoice as a third option. starship.paint (talk) 13:45, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Good. I think this RfC is now too far underway to change anything, especially not adding a third option. But you could perhaps qualify your "strong oppose" in the survey section by stating that you would support the "media and academics" variant that we just discussed. I'll mention it next to my !vote as well. — JFG 08:37, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Done, added just below my vote. starship.paint (talk) 08:40, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Me too. 🤝 — JFG 08:45, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Trump's "best economy in history"

MONGO reverted this edit because "stocks are higher than ever...unemployment is lower than in last 50 years," despite the facts that:

• The Obama market outperformed the Trump market, reaching all-time record highs 103 times between March 5, 2013 and election day 2016 (I have that data on a spreadsheet somewhere, if anyone would like to see it)

• The unemployment rate had been declining steadily for seven years before Trump was elected, contrary to efforts by some to make it seem that Trump became president and flipped a magic switch to cause unemployment to suddenly drop.

• And anyway, the edit contains eight cites from a reliable source showing that Trump's assertions are false. And that's what we rely on here: reliable sources.

I recommend the edit be restored. soibangla (talk) 18:23, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Both Trump's declarations, MONGO's assertion and Soibangla's sources are opinion about the health of the economy and the respective attribution to the Obama or Trump presidencies. The economy is always good or bad, best or worst, by some measure. Best leave all opinion out. — JFG 19:46, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

There isn't even a definition of "best economy" as it would have to include the how likely a recession will occur and how resiliently it will perform once the inevitable recession does. Which is only a comment, not an argument for or against inclusion. O3000 (talk) 19:50, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

This is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of a RS reporting the assertions as false — eight times. But anyway, by every metric a reasonable person can name — GDP, job creation, wage growth, earnings growth, stock market, unemployment rate, labor participation, you name it — we are most certainly not in the best economy in American history, not by a long shot. "By just about any important measure, the economy today is not doing as well as it did under Presidents Dwight D. Eisenhower, Lyndon B. Johnson and Bill Clinton — and Ulysses S. Grant" soibangla (talk) 22:22, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Per Misplaced Pages policy, report what reliable sources say, subject to WEIGHT. If MONGO wishes to include a different viewpoint with sufficient sourcing, he is free to do so. Leave personal political analysis out of it; that is not our job. That said, it did seem odd to me that all eight cites were from AP. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:06, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I reported what RS said, MONGO cited specific metrics that are easily debunked. I can produce other reliable sources if desired, but I figured that AP is considered perhaps the most anodyne source that is rarely if ever challenged as "fake news." soibangla (talk) 22:13, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Based on what you've said, I'm curious to know if editors think MONGO reverted because he should — or because he could. soibangla (talk) 22:47, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't know that it matters what we think about that.Maybe I haven't been clear: Your content is a fair reflection of adequate sourcing per WEIGHT, and should therefore remain in. MONGO is free to add an alternative viewpoint if he can produce adequate sourcing per WEIGHT. Then we can discuss to what extent it's appropriate to use wiki voice. To date, MONGO hasn't produced anything but his own view of the political situation. Nor has anybody else in this thread, except you. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:59, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

his own view of the political situation is not sufficient grounds to revert and force another editor into WP:ONUS. If I'm not mistaken, you recently called into question whether MONGO should be permitted to edit American politics articles. soibangla (talk) 23:15, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I think I once said that I would support a topic ban if MONGO were taken to AE. He has not been taken to AE, and this is not the place to discuss such things (I said that on a user talk page, not in article talk).As I understand the process, pretty much anything is sufficient grounds for a revert that doesn't violate the explicit rules, and an editor who repeatedly abuses that freedom should be taken to AE. I also understand that the system is messy, inconsistent, and unreliable, the natural and inevitable result of self-selected self-governance. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:27, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Soibangla - find other sources to mix it up (I’m sure WaPo cited best economy as one of Trump’s most repeated falsehoods) and I’ll add it back as DUE material. starship.paint (talk) 22:57, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

"President Trump’s repeated claim: 'The greatest economy in the history of our country’" soibangla (talk) 23:06, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Soibangla. Now, if you could find even more of other sources, or at least find other reliable sources citing AP, then I think you would strengthen your claim on DUE weight, due to a range of sources rather than only two at the moment. starship.paint (talk) 23:33, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Will three do? Trump Says the U.S. Economy Is the ‘Greatest’ Ever. It’s Not soibangla (talk) 23:42, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Eight will, and it's done, Soibangla. I've reinserted the material after I found five more sources (Yahoo, LA Times, Stuff, Newsweek, CNBC) to go along with AP, WaPo and Bloomberg. starship.paint (talk) 00:58, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Do we really need to report - in this already-huge biography - every time he makes one of these ridiculous claims? This is "the greatest economy in history". He's had "the most successful first two years of any president in history". He signed "the biggest tax cut in history". He had "the largest inaugural crowd in history". He won "perhaps the greatest election of all time". He is "the healthiest individual ever to assume the presidency". IMO we shouldn't clutter up his biography with these things. Put them in the Presidency of Donald Trump article, or the Economic policy article. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:21, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Agree that it belongs in a sub-article. Besides, I won the greatest election of all time when I was unanimously voted most handsome man in my apartment. O3000 (talk) 00:29, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

We'll put it in your article. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:33, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Citation needed. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:00, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Where's the subpoena? O3000 (talk) 01:01, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Would we put it in this article had he actually had the best economy? I'm sure we would, that's an extremely significant achievement, even if it was that he just didn't bungle up what Obama started. By that metric, we should also put in this article that he has repeatedly lied about having the best economy. starship.paint (talk) 01:05, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

I've reinserted the material after I found five more sources (Yahoo, LA Times, Stuff, Newsweek, CNBC) to go along with AP, WaPo and Bloomberg. Mandruss - this will appease your caution on the over-reliance on AP. starship.paint (talk) 00:58, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

See the NYTimes article which was cited by IBD. A few others include Hill, and CNBC. The simple facts (not opinions): "GDP growth in the first nine quarters of the Trump presidency has averaged 2.77%—versus 2.3% over the 16 quarters of Barack Obama's" and so on. An interesting note - the May 10th article in The Nation. _Talk 📧 03:07, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Not really pertinent to the question at hand. Find us eight reliable sources that say this is the best economy in American history, and we can talk. That's what Trump has been saying over and over. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:19, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Atsme - your NYT article is from Aug. 6, 2016 before Trump was ever president. Which of your sources argue that this is the best economy in history - as is the title of this section? starship.paint (talk) 03:32, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• JUST THE FACTS PLEASE - somehow instead of being about economy facts and mentioning major news items the record low unemployment, the record stock market, the record GDP level and continuing 10 years of growth .... this is casting things into the gossip channel and telling about critics nit-picking over hyperbole. If it’s not all deleted as non-biographical, need some perspective here, and observance of WEIGHT. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:49, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  FACT - Trump has repeatedly called his economy the best ever. FACT - reliable sources disagree that it is the best ever. Would you like to provide reliable sources on how the GDP and stocks are at their highest level ever, and that unemployment is at its lowest level ever? starship.paint (talk) 04:03, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• Please stick to ECONOMIC facts, as well as perspective and WEIGHT. Critics nit-picking speeches are not big WEIGHT compared to the missing economic stories, and not deserving of lead position. Markbassett (talk) 04:24, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• Found a source saying the unemployment rate was as low as 2.5 percent in 1953 ... The GDP is the broadest measure of the economy ... In 1950 and 1951, it was 8.7 and 8 percent, respectively. Does Trump beat that? Found a source quoting Trump's claim for the record stock market, it says We’ll also note that it’s unclear how valuable the stock market is as a gauge of the country’s economic health. Not every American is invested, so it’s probably not the most important economic metric. starship.paint (talk) 04:14, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

" In 1950 and 1951, it was 8.7 and 8 percent" - careful, you're talking about GDP growth, not actual GDP.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:29, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• Irrelevant to this discussion. Nobody has to "prove" anything except what RS says – specifically about strongest economy in U.S. history, not individual cherry-picked metrics. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:17, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  User:Starship.paint OK, so let’s talk the RS phrasing on that then ... it would be something like “In the second year of President Trump’s term, unemployment declined to historic low levels unprecedented in modern history or 70-year low in national unemployment; and lowest unemployment ever measured for blacks, 19 states, and certain labor categories.” Obviously many sites, highly significant, and major WEIGHT. How about I post it phrased like that ? Markbassett (talk) 04:42, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  Markbassett - Unprecedented ... modern - not okay, misleading, vague. 70-year low - okay. 19 states, labor categories - list them, vague otherwise. Assuming you have the sources. I seem to remember the blacks unemployment being (jointly?) attributed to Obama - will add if sources say so. starship.paint (talk) 05:00, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  DONE - "By late 2018 and early 2019, the national average unemployment continued to decline to lows not seen since 1969, with occasional record lows set for 19 states, and in racial measures for blacks, hispanics, and asian-americans." I used cites to whitehouse.gov, bbc.com, fortune.com, pbs.org; bloomberg.com, bls.gov; and NBCnews.com. Others of course available, but these seemed major sources of diverse types in the financial arena. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:28, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

• Ok, Sgt. Friday. Fact 1: Trump has repeatedly said this is the strongest economy in U.S. history. Fact 2: We have 8 reliable sources that say that is not true. Which fact do you dispute?As for WEIGHT, I think it's time you learned what that means. WP:WEIGHT speaks of "the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources" – not about our personal opinions about the relative importance of those viewpoints. There is nothing in WEIGHT or any policy that says we can choose to ignore anything said in RS in sufficient quantity. We routinely include things with considerably less than eight independent sources, so you have no WEIGHT basis to oppose this content. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:10, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  Well aware of what WEIGHT means and that is not the rationale for my revert. I feel such additions belong in daughter's articles not in the mainline BLP. My edit summary is accurate however, as stocks are at the highest point and unemployment is at a 50 year low , . Whether this happened due to Obama or Trump policies isn't the point as they happened during Trumps administration. I notice Soibangla did add this same material elsewhere as they did here and here, and, believe it or not also here, yet I did not remove it from those articles. Why is this same material in 4 different articles? ...why do we have daughter articles if the same material is going to be found in every related article? It defeats the purpose of having spinoffs.--MONGO (talk) 04:19, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

By stock market, I assume you mean the Dow. The Dows only measures 30 of the 28 million businesses in the US. And, companies among those 30 that fall on hard times are replaced by companies that are performing better, like GE last year. And the stock prices of these companies can be improved with stock buybacks, which are now quite common due to repatriated foreign cash. This is a poor measure of the economy. O3000 (talk) 16:00, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

@MONGO and Objective3000: - stock market highs are not uncommon. Yahoo! Finance analysed the presidents since 1980, and every one of them had record stock market highs. Bushes had under 50, Obama and Reagan had over 100, Clinton had over 200. The source further says: It’s a bit silly to gauge a president’s mettle by the number of stock-market highs, since the stock market consistently hits new highs as the economy grows. “In a rising market, you will see new highs on a regular basis,” Brad McMillan of Commonwealth Financial Network wrote to clients on April 24 starship.paint (talk) 00:39, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT being all viewpoints in proportion to their prominence, the views on the state of the U.S. economy are in 170 Million cites ... the eight about nit-picking a Trump speech just are not DUE any mention. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:46, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Excellent, let's remove everything with eight cites or less from this article, given that there are 1 billion Google hits for Donald Trump, eight is surely nitpicking. To even be a significant minority viewpoint, I propose a percentage of 5 %, so we need about 50 million cites per sentence. starship.paint (talk) 00:31, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

• FACT: the first cited source (Yahoo News) used for the restored material states: As is often the case, President Trump is half-right. We say what the RS say. The material that was restored doesn't say he was half-right, nor does it mention anything about him being right about anything. It's all criticism and speculation which is noncompliant with NPOV because half the information that belongs has been omitted. Further, much of the material that was restored is UNDUE because there is no way to determine what the tariffs (global trade) will do until his term is over. Trump has only completed a little more than half of his term. _Talk 📧 04:27, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  Atsme - have you read beyond the first line of that Yahoo! Finance article ? The fourth and fifth lines say But he’s going way overboard when he insists that, “in many ways this is the greatest economy in the history of America.” It’s not, and the reasons why matter—because they might be the rumblings of the next recession. Come on. I'm truly astonished. Further down, Our current grade on the Trumponomics report card is a solid B. Since Trump is claiming historical superiority, we’ll tell you exactly where he stands ... 3rd ... second ... third ... third ... third ... third - starship.paint (talk) 04:35, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  ?.. “in many ways this is the greatest economy” seems a modest claim that is factually true, “many” meaning you could come up with 5 or 6. (That there are also many ways it isn’t the greatest can also be true, same reason). Markbassett (talk) 05:13, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  So Yahoo! Finance says It’s not, and you, citing nothing, says it is. starship.paint (talk) 05:37, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  ??? Don’t be silly. You know perfectly well major items like this millions of cites, far greater WEIGHT than the speech nit-picking. The stock market records are repeatedly in WSJ, Barron’s, CNBC, Yahoo, etcetera many others, for each of the dozens of times it hit a new high. That unemployment is the lowest ever measured for blacks, Latinos, and Asian Americans is similarly BLS.gov covered by AP, Bloomberg, CBS, CNBC, CNN, .... Cites would be with the edit, picking a couple BESTSOURCES may be hard only because with so many highly authoritative and large it’s a tough call. Markbassett (talk) 15:17, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  @Markbassett: - stock market highs are not uncommon, they are in fact, very regular given a growing economy. Yahoo! Finance analysed the presidents since 1980, and every single one of them had record stock market highs. Bushes had under 50, Obama and Reagan had over 100, Clinton had over 200. The source further says: It’s a bit silly to gauge a president’s mettle by the number of stock-market highs, since the stock market consistently hits new highs as the economy grows. “In a rising market, you will see new highs on a regular basis,” Brad McMillan of Commonwealth Financial Network wrote to clients on April 24 starship.paint (talk) 00:44, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

  Did these UE rates suddenly decline when Trump became president? soibangla (talk) 18:28, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

  User:Starship.paint Yes, stock market is one of the “in many ways this is the best economy in history”. Thank you for the article which says ‘Trump has had more record highs in his first 2 years than any other’, with a whopping 37% increase in the first year from Election - called the Trump stock market rally. Yes, before this record high others had record highs, such is the nature of records. At the moment Trump likes touting that the economy is great, speech critics nit-pick about that, and WP for BLP should JUST REPORT THE FACTS PLEASE, and not report just the gossipy or the spinning. Are you proposing to put in content about the market? As previously posted, I’ll maybe try to put up unemployment numbers, but am doing other things first, so go ahead and propose. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 12:29, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

  You can add that, and I'll add in the same source saying It’s a bit silly to gauge a president’s mettle by the number of stock-market highs, since the stock market consistently hits new highs as the economy grows. starship.paint (talk) 12:58, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

  S&P500 after 640 trading days since election days, through yesterday: Obama — up 32.6%, Trump — up 30.1%. After 591 trading days since inauguration days: Obama — up 63.5%, Trump — up 22.5%. Google spreadsheet upon request. soibangla (talk) 17:46, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

• ^^^^That. But even if you were correct: Per WEIGHT, I don't think we're going to include content saying that one of the 8 sources says Trump has been only half-lying. We stick to prominence in RS and leave other reasoning out of it. We don't look at what one source says and argue that it says something equally important to seven that don't say that. That judgment is not ours to make. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:39, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• Per BALANCE/NPOV we include all relevant views, and we don't use only those RS that support the same view when there are other RS that support a different view. _Talk 📧 04:49, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  Please make visible these RS that support a different view (that Trump’s economy is the best in history). I don’t see any. starship.paint (talk) 04:51, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  Did you really restore this within the minimal 24 hour discussion period? The wording in the banner is a bit vague so I am unclear if it means no one can restore it, or only the original editor cannot do so. Please correct me if I am mistaken and I do see you added further references...nevertheless, what is the rush, especially since we have I believe 5 editors who oppose it even being here and only three supporting it so far. I see MelanieN also thought it should be in another article, yet did move it to a different location in the section.--MONGO (talk) 05:46, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  Banner says "one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period". If I violated 1RR, let me know so I can correct it. Banner said If an edit you make is challenged by reversion. The original edit wasn't by me, and I've added different sources anyway, so it's not a wholesale revert. If this needs to be an RfC, let us know. starship.paint (talk) 07:25, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  Do you think there is as yet a consensus for the restoration as I don't yet see it. I think without one re-adding it even with more cites makes this an issue deserving an Rfc.--MONGO (talk) 07:56, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

I support it. Who are the five that supposedly oppose it? Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:54, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Myself, Atsme, 0300, MelanieN and Markbassett, the latter two, MelanieN ended up moving it after starship.paint restored it and markbassett may not possibly one way or the other as they have not made it clear, but seems to be arguing against it. Why is this material in 4 different articles, all added by Soibangla with this one added last? If it already appeared elsewhere, all added the same day, why is it parroted here too.--MONGO (talk) 06:10, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

So if something appears on other articles it can't appear here? Perhaps it simply deserves to be on all these articles. If any president had his country's best economy ever, I would support the material on their personal page. If any president repeatedly boasted about having his country's best economy ever and were rebuked by many reliable sources, I would also support that material on their personal page. starship.paint (talk) 07:25, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Makes little sense to be parroting the same material on multiple articles that are spinoffs to keep related material together. This is the reason we have daughter articles. A review of summary style might help.--MONGO (talk) 07:56, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Cool, so this article should not include anything that's in one of the sub-articles. I'm for that, so when do we start gutting this article and reducing it to about 40% of its current size? I mean, either we do that or your argument falls flat on its face, which is it? ―Mandruss ☎ 08:07, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

A. Not what I said. B. Follow summary style. This article as MelanieN already stated is bloated. Its bloated by constant coatracking and it is bloated at 430k kilobytes...we keep posting material at 3,4,5 different articles that is all the same we might as well redirect all of those back here and just have one 2 million KB mess.--MONGO (talk) 08:44, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

On this list here this article is the 38th longest on the pedia. I do recognize however that this one has a lot of bytes dedicated to referencing.--MONGO (talk) 08:55, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

I have long argued that the article should not include anything that will not belong here in about 20 years. Not only does that result in severe bloat, but it helps make the article a political battleground. Most editors on both ends of the spectrum—whether they admit it or not—whether they realize it or not—advocate or oppose content here on the basis of how it might affect public opinion, and particularly the 2020 election.I have warned about the slippery slope that results from the absence of a bright line rule backed by consensus, and I have been advised not to worry about it. So I haven't worried about it much (out loud), and this is the result. My point is that the problem is far larger than one sentence, and we can't address it one proposed new sentence at a time. As long as the article includes anything of this nature, there is no bloat rationale for omitting one more instance of it. Just curious, how many times have you made a bloat argument against Trump-favorable content? ―Mandruss ☎ 09:11, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Show me a clear consensus this material belongs in the article without resulting to specious comments and inquires about ones intent. An Rfc would do.--MONGO (talk) 15:21, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Why are we discussing the Economic history of the United States in this article? We have a specific article for such data. And Trump is simply using hyperbole to gain some political support, he is not comparing financial data to compare the current economy with that of any other presidential administration since 1789. Dimadick (talk) 08:16, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

We are not discussing the Economic history of the United States; rather, those who are shouldn't be, since that is not what the disputed content is about. Instead, we are discussing the article's subject individual making repeated claims about the economic history of the United States that, according to a sufficient number of reliable sources, are false. And it is not our job to second-guess reliable sources, debating things like hyperbole to gain some political support, but rather to report what they say, provided they say it in sufficient numbers. That's what Misplaced Pages policy says. The numbers are more than sufficient, or a good 20% of the article needs to go. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:24, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm counting 15,000+ words that have main articles elsewhere. The article without footnotes and references is less than 18,000 words. Cutting everything with main articles elsewhere wouldn't even leave you with 20%. Here's the remaining sections with a total of around 2,000 words: Early life and education, Religion, Conflicts of interest (business), Professional wrestling, The Apprentice, Radio and television commentary, Political activities up to 2015, 2012 presidential speculation, 2013–2015 (political career) and 2019 House investigation. starship.paint (talk) 08:51, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Getting rid of about 80% of current content sounds about right, though I’d have guessed 50% for where one gets by looking at the easily questionable - anything not biographical, or not a major news item more than a 1-week wonder, gossip quotefarms, excessively wordy phrasing’s... all the bloat with trivia or detail stuff already covered elsewhere. It might work best to set some minimum guidelines for what can stay, and then it would be both a cutting guide and a filter against rebloating. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:33, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• I agree with a whole bunch of editors here that this material shouldn't be included in this article. Every time Trump says something false or outlandish, the media jump, not because of the subject matter but because fact checking is their job. Fact checking is not our job because we are not a newspaper. Therefore, the fact that these statements are covered by news media doesn't bear much on whether they're sufficiently noteworthy for inclusion. For the most part, they're not. The section of this article about the economy under the Trump administration should be about that, the actual economy and not the relatively inconsequential things that Trump says about it. R2 (bleep) 19:28, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

  Every time Trump says something false or outlandish, the media jump, not because of the subject matter but because fact checking is their job. - not really, he’s said this over 134 times and this is his 4th most repeated falsehood (per WaPo source here) and the media doesn’t jump every time. Furthermore, it is a big lie, because if it were actually true and reliable sources said Trump had the best economy, we would include it in the article. starship.paint (talk) 23:39, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

  The economy is arguably the only thing keeping his approval rating above 30%. It's not inconsequential that he keeps repeating it's the best economy ever, many people blindly believe it. And not only isn't it the best economy ever, it isn't even the best economy since 2012. soibangla (talk) 00:12, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

  ? That actually offers evidence of Trump being right. It shows GDP this year being a record — more than Trump’s first year, which was more than the Obama’s best year, etcetera. “Best” GDP ever. And p.s. think that 42% approval is of his actions, and/or style... eh, tastes vary... because Quinnipiac poll says he’s not getting credit for the economy. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:06, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

It shows GDP this year being a record...more than the Obama’s best year No. It. Does. Not. soibangla (talk) 17:24, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

?? Just pointing out the mathematical fact. GDP Grew every year of Obama then grew for the 2 years after Obama = GDP now more than Obama ever had. GDP usually grows, that’s why it could be considered one of the “in many ways” this is the best U.S. economy in history. If you look for records that support the claim, you find some exist. That critics chose instead to seek ways it is not is also possible - that would not disprove the statement Trump made, it would only disprove if the claim had been “in ALL ways”. But again, WP should not be promoting here, it should just state the facts please. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 12:51, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

I cannot begin to describe how many ways your "analysis" of GDP now more than Obama ever had is deeply flawed, so I won't even start. Just take a glance at this chart and tell me again why a record level of GDP is noteworthy. soibangla (talk) 17:28, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

User:Soibangla ???? How are you seeing what’s shown there as a negative or as a suspect “analysis” and not simple mathematical fact? That source to me is an even clearer and very authoritative showing of what I said about the table of continuous positives “It shows this year GDP as being a record, higher than Trump’s first year, which was more than Obama’s best year, etcetera. “Best” GDP ever.” 18.9 trillion chart on right side is higher than 18.3 a year before, is higher than 17.8 the year before, etcetera. Look, you offered a weblink and said it showed Trump wrong ... but I pointed out it instead supports Trump... how are you feeling this doesn’t show highest GDP ever or that highest GDP would not be evidence towards Trump being right ???? Very puzzled be adamant ‘no it doesn’t’ and how/why you feel second source disproves that. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:53, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

►facepalm◄ soibangla (talk) 00:05, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Please stop adding your own WP:OR. Why do you think GDP is the sole measurement of economy? Why do you think the highest GDP means anything about the state of the economy since it naturally grows over time, just as the population grows. Why would consider anything in the realm of economics “mathematical fact” when economists have so much disagreement? Where is the preponderance of reliable sources? O3000 (talk) 00:06, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

User:Soibangla you’re making no sense - it was you who put a link to chart of all-growing GDP as a Trump negative, I simply put up a “?” And said that actually it supports Trump ... Your vehement ‘no it does not’ and saying ‘GDP now higher than Obama ever had is wrong’ and giving me an even more obvious chart showing it IS now higher than Obama ever had just got even more ???? marks. Look, simple fact GDP is higher now than prior years, mathematically 18 is more than 17 - that’s not “analysis”, that’s not “OR”, accept that’s simple fact being shown by the cites you’re putting forward yet saying they somehow do not show this. I have no idea how you’re getting that backwards into up is down. I don’t absolutely need to — while very puzzled on how you’re not seeing this as up is up, or simple fact as simple fact, just note that claims that table or chart is negative got pushback and move along. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 22:57, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

There is no longer any way I can attempt to communicate with you without engaging in personal attacks about your competence and motives. Goodbye. soibangla (talk) 23:05, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I looked into this further and agree with you, Soibangla, in light of the fact that this isn't an isolated tweet but a pattern of tweets that, as a pattern, have received a lot of media attention. However, I believe that this sentence about Trump's false tweets shouldn't lead the paragraph. The paragraph should start with a summary of the economy under Trump and proceed to verifiable details. Trump's statements can come after that, clearly indicating that they're false, followed by a phrase or sentence about how some Americans are being misled (if reliably sourced, of course). And Markbassett, if you're going to disrupt discussions with falsehoods like that then there's a conduct problem. I urge you to provide some credible evidence, or strike your comment. R2 (bleep) 19:14, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding with regards to the inclusion of material in an article. WP:ONUS states: While information must be verifiable in order to be included in an article, this does not mean that all verifiable information must be included in an article. NPOV states: Prefer nonjudgmental language. A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject (or what reliable sources say about the subject), although this must sometimes be balanced against clarity. Present opinions and conflicting findings in a disinterested tone. Do not editorialize. When editorial bias towards one particular point of view can be detected the article needs to be fixed. Noncompliance with NPOV is/has been detected, not only by editors but by readers who have attempted to make corrections (via pp Trump-related articles). WP:GNG requires multiple sources as it relates to notability, not for material inclusion. It appears WEIGHT is mistakenly being applied based on the number of sources cited as if to justify inclusion, irrespective of NOTNEWS (as indicated above) in that Multiple sources should not be asserted for any wire service article. Such sources are essentially a single source. The news agencies mentioned include BBC News, Reuters, Interfax, Agence France-Presse, United Press International or the Associated Press - which should be cited in addition to the news pub that reprinted it. We use RS for two purposes: to (1) avoid OR and (2) satisfy V; therefore, wide-spread coverage in news sources does not automatically guarantee inclusion in an article. The assumption sometimes leads us to noncompliance with PAGS, including NPOV, WP:NOTSPECULATION, WP:NOTNEWSPAPER and possibly even WP:NOTSTATS, especially with reference to propaganda, opinion polling, POV graphs as we often see with economic stats (and as the arguments have already established to be POV). And yes - that applies to all political views/opinions and why we should exercise caution when including such material. Some of it is neither encyclopedic nor does it have lasting value as evidenced in the edit histories of various articles about former high profile political figures and in this case, US presidents, which provide a good standard to follow. _Talk 📧 14:59, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

• Frankly speaking, Trump’s claim of the “best economy in history” is simply one more of his absurd exaggerations. By what measurement would you compare a current economy without knowing the future? And what does “current” even mean? Why don’t we just completely ignore it instead of arguing about how to measure the “best economy in history”. We can leave that to ivory tower economists, like theologians arguing about whether Jesus owned his own clothes or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. O3000 (talk) 15:29, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
• I fail to see any relevance in that wall of text. There is no POV or judgment in the edit. The assertion that we are now in the best economy in history, which he has asserted 134 times per WaPo, is simply, flatly, patently false by overwhelming, objective factual evidence. soibangla (talk) 17:55, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

• That’s an incorrect portrayal of the WaPo opinion pieces - they all start with ‘while it is something to brag about’, which is missing in article text. And then the WaPo saying ‘not quite historic’ by a measure they then look at, got in the text exaggerated from an ‘not quite’ into an unambiguous “false”. If it was portrayed as WaPo said 134 time ‘not quite’ would be closer. A further problem here is it does not convey the viewpoint Trump or others was giving on that subject so does not meet NPOV, it only portrays the speech criticism. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 12:24, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Soibangla - I disagree with your revert . Merely stating 4% doesn't tell us much, it's just a number. Having the lowest unemployment since 1969 is significant. Having record lows in almost 20 states is also significant (I would put in a note exactly which states). Same for the races. Markbassett has already attempted to discuss it above before inserting. starship.paint (talk) 04:22, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

I support that reversion. The removed material was ostensibly about the US economy, not Trump. Written in that way, it effectively used Wikivoice to claim these economic successes are directly attributable to Trump policies, which is (a) unlikely, (b) impossible to prove, and (c) unsupported by the references. I am not necessarily opposed to the inclusion of those details, but I am opposed to the way it was written before the reversion. Perhaps the entire summary in that section should be looked at again and worked out here before putting it back in? -- Scjessey (talk) 11:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

So propose (or make) alternative phrasing. Simply stating the unemployment rate seemed simplest, in line with the preceding text and follows just showing the rate was done in Barack Obama. During the administration is what’s the general approach anyway - it may seem fair or not, but the norm is presidents get noted for what happens on their watch. The unemployment could be given as a chart like the Obama page, but that would not convey the WEIGHT of coverage is about ‘best since 1969’ and ‘some states and racial groups hitting record lows’. Any other thoughts ? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 12:32, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

You do understand that "best since 1969" has nothing whatsoever to do with Trump or his policies, right? Literally anyone could've been POTUS and that "record" would've been hit at roughly the same time. One only has to look at a graph showing the unemployment rate since the Bush recession to see why. The WEIGHT of coverage is more about how Trump brags about these records, rather than the records themselves. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:45, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

User:Scjessey No, it is pretty clear the WEIGHT of coverage on US unemployment is about the getting to historic lows or setting new records. Reviewing speeches by Trump about it is obviously a subset where just not many have that focus, and some of them agree or praise him.

• Raw Google is fairly overwhelming that about 90% of coverage on US unemployment record low is not mentioning Trump - Google "united states" unemployment record low gets 24.7 million hits but with Trump added hits 3.9 million. That google is a crude filter, and pulls in a lot of Obama or blogs, but as a rough take the results are overwhelming. (Perhaps partly because Unemployment lows are there to be mentioned every day, and Trump saying something about them is not every day.)
• Prominent business publications basically don't do speech critiques - articles there focus on what it means or why it happened, check out Bloomberg, TheEconomist, Forbes, , WSJ
• Covering the dozens of records set isn't national - new records get mentioned a lot in .gov and press for states, counties, racial groups, or labor categories such as construction and tech, not about the national level - Tennessee, San Francisco, Construction
• Generic national coverage also ~90% on the events, not the speeches - looking at Reuters USAToday
• Praises in the 10% mentioning Trump - and in the mix are publications like FoxNews and Breitbart for example.

So again, the coverage of Unemployment Hitting Record Lows is much more about it happening, business implications and why, and each individual record. WEIGHT for the Unemployment news is much higher than weight for criticisms about Trump speeches which mention it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markbassett (talk • contribs)

@Markbassett: You've made my point for me. The weight of the Trump coverage is about his bragging. The weight of the economical coverage barely mentions Trump. Ergo, there's little point in keeping the material in question. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:35, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

User:Scjessey From my view, authoritative economy sources like The Economist are talking about “the Trump boom” and that Republicans (including Trump) have a glowing economy ... and there are no speech criticisms. So WEIGHT of Trump mentions in economy venue is basically positive. Of course, far more is simply reporting the economy as something highly noted during his term... since I posted that, obviously I think that is the most DUE by WEIGHT here. I could also see ‘just the biographical’, hence reasonably happy to have the whole section deleted ... but then it cannot be including speech criticisms that lack biographical content. I cannot see any valid argument for only a negative POV that is neither biographical nor highest WEIGHT by area nor by Trump-specific remarks. Seems like there are three valid choices here, either

• more goes in to satisfy NPOV of having all significant views in proportion to their weight; or
• only general market gets in as nothing else is of significant WEIGHT compared to that; or
• cut it AND speech criticism based on being non-biographical OFFTOPIC. RSVP, Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:29, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

  I'll just say that Trump saying something can't be off-topic in this article. starship.paint (talk) 05:49, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

• Speech criticism however, especially when distorted by WP to exaggerate the cite, seems non-biographical since it is not about a significant decision in his life or event of his life. In large the criticism cites seen seem not about what he said or where or why or meant, but is their own “alternative facts”? These cites seem to just give a snippet and then go off into their own manufactured view of how that could be seen as wrong. e.g. dinging GDP growth when other sources on the same remarks say it was referring to unemployment rate. If their criticism had much WEIGHT or actual effect would be one thing, but here just seems UNDUE sidebar. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:23, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

It`s obvious Trump inherited a good economy and is taking credit. 2600:1702:2340:9470:D968:91F2:DF40:9D92 (talk) 16:32, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Personality of Donald Trump

“As some prominent psychiatrists have noted, is the elephant in the room. I think the public is really starting to catch on and widely talk about this now.” (The Independent, 2017)

It's high time that we do something about this article's most startling omission: Trump's personality and health. It's one of the most widely covered issues related to Trump over a period of several years and the subject of an extensive body of expert commentary the world over. Many sources are of very high quality. (Just a few examples: , , , ) Clearly countless reliable sources consider this topic to be very important for understanding Trump as a politician. In the years since we first discussed this omission, the body of literature has continued to grow and now includes entire books and academic conferences dedicated to the subject.

We already have a stand-alone article that discusses his physical and mental health (Health of Donald Trump), so the topic is already deemed suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages per se. We even have an article on the book The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President. (Trump himself has commented on his mental health – or "very stable genius" – on many occasions) There is absolutely no policy-based reason to exclude this material from the main article.

It would be normal for the main article to include a shorter summary of the material found in the topical in-depth article, in the form of a section or sub section. Given the prominence of the topic in coverage related to Trump and its importance according to numerous reliable sources, a one-sentence summary in the lead section would also be appropriate. --Tataral (talk) 03:37, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

As you probably know, this issue has been debated before, and settled in favor of #Current consensus item 21: Omit any opinions about Trump's psychology held by mental health academics or professionals who have not examined him. This consensus was the outcome of two discussions in July 2017 and August 2017, largely in reaction to the publication of The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump. At the time, you disagreed with those conclusions and claimed that there was a false claim about a non-existent consensus, although it was pretty much unanimous. If you'd like to check whether consensus may have changed, please suggest some text and start an RfC. I'm not sure that digging up 2016–2017 sources, as you did above, will help change anybody's mind. If you have more recent material to support your suggestion, let's see it. — JFG 06:08, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

In part, I agree with what JFG is saying. This article is written in summary style, which means it should ideally be a concise summary of all the "daughter articles" that are biographically significant. With that said, Tataral is talking about bringing in a highly controversial aspect of Trump, who is already a highly controversial and polarizing figure. The best way to do this is for Tataral to come up with a very short paragraph that summarizes what needs to be said, then present it here for debate; however, it is premature to be talking about RfCs. An RfC is only necessary when normal discussion has broken down, and we haven't even started to consider some appropriate text yet. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:07, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

This issue has been discussed before. It has not been "settled" and there is no consensus either for or against including this material now, and never has been (as also discussed before). As also discussed before, a consensus for including this material might very well develop in the future, so this was always an issue that we would have to revisit – in this case because it is a topic with its own daughter article that would normally be mentioned/summarized in the main article, and also because the topic was comparatively new when we first started to discuss it several years ago, so RS hadn't had the same chance to digest it. It's normal to start with an informal discussion and it's never a good solution to start an RfC right away without that. An RfC might be appropriate when people have had a chance to weigh in and the options have become clear.

Clearly there is no reason that is actually based on Misplaced Pages policy for omitting this material when the topic is even deemed worthy of a stand-alone daughter article. The only opposition I've seen was based on WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. The idea that we should "omit any opinions" held by academics or professionals "who have not examined him" is essentially a form of highly idiosyncratic WP:FRINGE POV, seemingly based on one Misplaced Pages editor's (mis)reading of the non-binding and widely ignored (even explicitly rejected) opinion of just one private association in just one country, where their views regarding that were promptly ignored by the countless experts who went on to write books, have conferences at Yale, write papers and talk to journalists on the topic anyway, not to mention that this recommendation had no relevance for experts and commentators in Europe, Asia, South America etc. in the first place, thereby being very US-centric. The recommendation was also about the personal conduct of mental health professionals within the US and not about Misplaced Pages content or the broader public discourse. Two entirely different things, so it's also a form of OR/SYNTH.

If the recommendation truly had posed some legal problem for some psychiatrists in the US, we could have avoided that problem entirely by limiting ourselves to citing experts in other countries and/or fields. For example psychologists from the UK. But clearly few or no reliable sources, even in the US, took the opinion seriously, considering the extensive conversation about this topic in reliable sources, including American ones. Misplaced Pages also doesn't have any such principle, and it's telling that this hasn't been an issue in any other article here that I'm aware of. We have numerous articles that include commentary by experts "who have not examined" the person in question, including entire articles such as Psychopathography of Adolf Hitler and several others (on both living and dead people). In Kim Jong-un there is even a first-level section titled "personality" where the North Korean leader is described as "socially awkward" based on the assessment of a journalist and where Trump is also used as a source for stating that Kim has a "great personality" and is "very smart." With Trump, we have a subject who even discusses his own mental capacities and wellbeing publicly, including widely publicized comments that he is a "genius" and "very stable".

The lack of coverage of this material is part of a larger problem with this article. High quality reliable sources, like The New York Times, overwhelmingly portray Trump in a highly critical light – and his personality is one of the main issues in that coverage, even more so than his actual policies. This article portrays him in an unduly positive light – even Putin is portrayed in a much more critical light, despite years-long efforts by pro-Kremlin accounts to influence the article. Material critical of Trump is systematically downplayed or removed in a manner that doesn't reflect how the topic is covered in reliable sources and that therefore violates WP:WEIGHT. --Tataral (talk) 14:15, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm open to this, but I would have to see some copy with some impeccable sources. I think it would have to be pretty brief, and I'm not sure where in the article it could be placed.- MrX 🖋 15:08, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Given the current structure of the article, it could belong in the section where he is now described as "clinically obese". Although, given the relationship between his personality and politics, a separate first-level section titled "personality" (as seen in several other articles) further below could also be an option. --Tataral (talk) 15:17, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

• I agree with Scjessey and MrX. Three of the four sources cited by Tataral were published before the summer 2017 consensus formed to exclude this type of material, so I'm a bit skeptical. And the false WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT accusations aren't helpful either. Then again, consensus can change. I'd like to see what we can come up with. R2 (bleep) 17:25, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

• • Since you only registered your account months ago, I'm astonished that you claim detailed knowledge of discussions from way before that, but for the record there was no consensus formed in 2017. The lack of a consensus for including the material at that time does not equal a consensus against it either, only that we would have to revisit the question again in the future (such as now) in order to get consensus for it. I see no legitimate reason for discarding sources merely because they are from 2016 or 2017, and the few sources mentioned were merely examples of a large body of sources discussing this as everyone here are aware of. In fact Trump's personality, narcissism is something that is constantly discussed, more or less daily. I found articles from The New York Times from only yesterday discussing it. ,,, The issue here isn't sources but a false claim and original research by one or two members of the pro-Trump crowd that we "can't" discuss someone's personality for some non-existent legal reason (or something like that), and regardless of an ocean of sources discussing the topic, because we, or the sources, haven't met the subject in person, which is both wrong and ridiculous, and certainly not based on Misplaced Pages policy. --Tataral (talk) 18:26, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Whoa... talk about unprovoked battlegrounding and personalization of what I thought was supposed to be a friendly, collaborative discussion... You're not going to win consensus that way. Since you only registered your account months ago, I'm astonished that you claim detailed knowledge of discussions from way before that, but for the record there was no consensus formed in 2017. Are you familiar with the talk page archives? Now, setting aside all of that nastiness, if there are more recent sources, then by all means go ahead and use them to draft something up. R2 (bleep) 18:41, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

@Tataral: Yeah, you need to back that shit down a bit and not jump on R2 like that. Also, might I suggest collecting your thoughts and assembling your comments before posting your wall of text comment here, rather than posting and then making umpteen revisions? -- Scjessey (talk) 19:42, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

I compose long-ish comments in Notepad (the most basic text editor that comes with Windows), then copy-and-paste. I have a Notepad window always open for use as a "scratch pad" for that and other purposes, so I'm saved the effort of opening one. In more than one way that works better for me than using the wiki editor for that purpose. YMMV. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:17, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Tataral, please stop opining about the beliefs or competence of other editors. The subject of this article is very controversial, so it's hard to maintain cooperation, but we need to try. Quit the accusations (WP:IDONTLIKEIT is an accusation) and stick to neutral discussion. Also, it isn't necessary to state and restate your opinion multiple times. What we need here is to concentrate on the article content. What exactly are you proposing to add? As you know I oppose the idea of putting attempts to diagnose or label him into this BLP, but I'm a reasonable person. Let's see what you are proposing to say. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:46, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Because this topic has its own main article, any material here should be a summary of that (Misplaced Pages:Summary style). In the past there have been attempts to argue that the amount and quality of reliable sources discussing this issue don't matter because of a supposed legal or pseudo-legal requirement to omit opinions of everyone but his personal physician, so I thought it was necessary to discuss that before preparing a specific text. I might attempt to draft a proposal during the weekend, depending on the discussion and related events (if the health article is nominated for deletion, it would make sense to wait for the result of that before proceeding with the summary of it here). --Tataral (talk) 00:57, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

I don't know if someone is going to nominate it for AFD but I agree it would be worthwhile to get it evaluated before adding something here. BTW please be more selective and accurate when you cite sources here. Of the “articles from the New York Times only yesterday” that you cited above, only one is actually recent or from the NYT. The first two are unacceptable as sources - an interview with a German psychotherapist, undated but apparently from 2017, and an interview last January from an unknown publication called Hillreporter that can’t even spell psychologist (see the url). The NYT opinion is recent does not address his mental health, just his quirks. The Esquire article is from last March and seems to be about a re-issue of “The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump.” We are persuadable by good sources here, so make sure your sources are good. -- MelanieN (talk) 01:09, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

I had not previously been aware of the article Health of Donald Trump. I just read it now and I am shocked. The article is one massive BLP violation, full of quotes attributing to him everything from mental incompetence to dementia to various types of personality disorder. Many of the quotes are from people who are totally unqualified to render any such judgment - such as other politicians. We have carefully kept armchair psychiatry out of this article, and yet here is this other article which is nothing but. What I have consistently argued here, and what is still listed at the top of this page as consensus, is that we do not cite mental health evaluations from people who have not personally examined his mental health. I am convinced that to do otherwise is to violate WP:BLP. So I argue strongly against adding any such material to this article, and I don't know what to do about the Health article since it has apparently been nurtured to its current state for nearly a year. Its earliest draft was ENTIRELY about mental health and all the people saying he's sick - not even a mention of physical health as cover for the title "Health of Donald Trump" One of its very first edits was to insert a smear from a political rival: "As early as February 2016, presidential candidate Jeb Bush speculated that Trump had mental health issues, stating "I’m not a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but the guy needs therapy". Is this the kind of material we have descended to including in a BLP? -- MelanieN (talk) 00:01, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

I see no evidence that Health of Donald Trump has passed an AfD. Wouldn't there be a note near the top of its ATP? I think an AfD would be a healthy thing to do. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:11, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

The article Health of Donald Trump is a reliably sourced and perfectly ok article that has existed for years, and that even pro-Trump editors have contributed to. Your claim that "we (who?) do not cite mental health evaluations from people who have not personally examined his mental health" has no basis in Misplaced Pages policy, reliable sources covering this topic, law or anything else that is relevant. Misplaced Pages has thousands of articles that include expert commentary from experts who haven't personally met the subject. The idea that only the personal "court physician" of a head of state is entitled to have an opinion on his personality has no basis in fact.

The problem with this highly idiosyncratic opinion is

1. it is presented as a pseudo-legal requirement that trumps the massive coverage of the topic in reliable sources, but is in reality based on a completely non-binding request from a private association within one particular profession within a single country
2. it has been massively ignored and rejected by members of that profession even within their own country; as they have continued to comment on his mental health in newspapers, on television, in academic papers and books, conferences
3. it never had any relevance at all outside of the US, and numerous experts from other countries in Europe and elsewhere have weighed in on Trump's personality/mental health, both in 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019
4. the request was related to the personal conduct of psychiatrists in the US, not public discourse. It does not follow from that request that Misplaced Pages shouldn't include such discussion, that's just SYNTH/OR. We could even base our entire discussion of his personality on experts from other professions (such as psychologists) and other countries.

in essence, the idea is a WP:FRINGE POV as there is no evidence of any reliable sources taking it seriously. It was briefly reported merely as a request within just one profession in just one country that experts disagreed with and that high quality reliable sources (NYT etc.) massively ignored. --Tataral (talk) 00:12, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with Health of Donald Trump. It seems balanced and everything seems properly attributed. There is nothing in WP:BLP prohibiting us from including those sorts of medical conclusions. WP:SPECULATION is relevant, but that's really about future events. R2 (bleep) 23:00, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I oppose the inclusion of content where outside actors are trying to diagnose Trump without having treated him. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 02:09, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Which Misplaced Pages policies and/or guidelines is this opposition based on? Especially considering that the argument for inclusion is based on clearly articulated Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines (specifically the existence of an abundance of reliable sources discussing the topic and that figure prominently in the coverage of Trump, as well as the existence of an in-depth Misplaced Pages article that is an established part of the Donald Trump article suite and therefore should be summarized here)? --Tataral (talk) 02:35, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

@Snooganssnoogans: If reliable sources of good quality quoted "outside actors" (I assume you mean from-a-distance diagnoses) in their reporting, then that would pass muster for inclusion in a Misplaced Pages article if such content satisfied the other usual constraints. With that said, the content would have to be awfully compelling to get my support. -- Scjessey (talk) 10:45, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

• Meh. Propaganda and Tabloid journalism exist, arguably are the bulk of coverage WEIGHT in politics for now and there simply is no clean source. There’s just a market for WP:SENSATIONAL and marketing to a particular audience. I don’t blame various players (NYT, MSNBC, Acosta, Maddox) for playing distorted or faked portrayals to their markets any more than I blame other players (Fox, Hannity, Limbaugh) for doing the same. It seems one gets $2 million USD per tabloid book or stand up a POV ‘non-profit’ so kind of hard to expect that SOMEbody won’t make stuff up. I just advocate WPP plus (a) a 48 hour waiting period vs new hot story on this morning’s feed, (b) checking with left-central BBC.com as a mark of what’s internationally noteworthy, and (c) checking the both Fox and MSNBC also to judge what the full range of mainstream media take is. Generally I’m also skeptical and contrarian, have a few personal views (US is about 6-12 months behind UK/world in general trend that Trump’s just a part of, etc) and am strongly preferring simple fact vs yet another of the crafted spins. Markbassett (talk) 15:38, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: If the deletion discussion ongoing at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Health of Donald Trump‎ continues on its current trajectory, that article will be merged here. As I have stated there, I have no particular objection to merging this to Donald Trump, but we should take care to avoid losing reliably sourced content. Therefore, if merged, any merger should include all material that is reported in sources that Misplaced Pages generally considers reliable (i.e. claims reported in sources such as CNN, BBC News, NBC News, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Hill, The New Yorker, Time, Vox, Vanity Fair, Mother Jones, The New Republic, Forbes, The Independent, U.S. News, and The Atlantic). If there are concerns that these sources are themselves making false or defamatory claims, then the solution is to carefully indicate that the claim is arising from the source, and not an assertion of fact on Misplaced Pages's part. bd2412 T 18:26, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

I understand your point. I still have a problem with armchair psychoanalyses, no matter the source, as I stated in the current consensus discussion. However, given the enormous info we now have, including his near constant twitter feed that seems like a direct connection to his unfiltered thoughts; I’m beginning to feel as though he’s more open to analysis than the typical, hour a week patient. The amount merged is likely to require a long discussion. O3000 (talk) 19:09, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Try finding a mental health professional that says he does not have issues..it`s not so much that opinion doesn`t count but if you do and put it in the article it will be supported by the same who want to keep the opposite out regardless of the truth. 2600:1702:2340:9470:D968:91F2:DF40:9D92 (talk) 16:41, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Net worth in the infobox

Do we really need this? All we have is an ever-changing number based on an estimate, and this is a parameter not normally found in biographies of presidents. As I said in a previous thread, discussing the wealth of an individual is vulgar. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:36, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I would say it should be there. It's not normally found in biographies of presidents, but keep in mind this article predates his presidency, and his notability prior to becoming president was primarily based on his perceived wealth and business acumen. Rather than comparing the infobox to other presidents, I would compare it to other people known for their wealth, such as Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, and John D. Rockefeller. ~ ONUnicornproblem solving 17:45, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I considered this, and dismissed it. Whatever Trump has been known as, he is now chiefly known as an American president. JFK was also spectacularly wealthy, but we don't mention his net worth in the infobox either. Moreover, we don't even know if the dubious Forbes data is accurate, because it changes constantly and it is disputed by Trump himself. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:44, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

No. Not only is it unusual to include this for a politician, it is a highly dubious number - as Scjessey points out. -- MelanieN (talk) 22:59, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

See, he wouldn't be president if he wasn't already known for what he has been known as prior to becoming president (This is true of any president, really. Name recognition is important for a candidate's viability.). Also, the fact that he's been known to exaggerate his wealth is an important part of the story of who he is and how he became president. This is the biography article, not the article about his presidency, and I feel it's important to continue to present the full picture of him, not just the most recent chapter of his life. ~ ONUnicornproblem solving 01:34, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

I generally oppose appeals to precedent, which is mostly the result of democratic voting by editing—little thought and no discussion. Such appeals also tend to impede evolution of the encyclopedia. More specific to this case, Trump is hardly the typical or average president, so precedents like this wouldn't apply anyway. I wish the number were more reliable, but it's attributed to a respected source and identified as an estimate—somewhat conspicuously, the only footnote in the infobox. On balance I lean toward include/no change. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:17, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Net worth changes annually - it's great clickbait for Forbes and Money Magazine, etc. but it doesn't belong in the infobox of any BLP. It could be said in the article that he was worth $X at the beginning of his term and $X when he left office, or something along that line. _Talk 📧 13:57, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

That sounds quite reasonable to me. In the article, we can give the numbers proper context, but I just don't like seeing the naked, unexplained number in the infobox. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:16, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

I expect footnotes to be read by any readers who care much about the associated content; otherwise there would be little point to having them. That's the explanation of the number. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:15, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

• Keep it. "Billionaire" is a fairly defining item in biographical terms, so suits the BLP. It was also noted for his presidency as a comparative to other presidents, along with his being the one without prior government or military service. Lastly, this is a long-time consensus with lots of debates in the past, so there should be preference for respecting past consensus and the status quo and leaving it alone. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 00:27, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Leave it out. No one knows what his net worth is. TFD (talk) 05:19, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

• Keep – Trump's net worth is one of the most often requested piece of information about him, and current estimates by three different organizations are in the same ballpark ± 1 billion. — JFG 08:06, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

  3.02B ± 180M. The ballpark is 360M wide. The infobox could show the average of the three estimates, 3.05B, but that would be more precise than two of the estimates, and it's pretty close to the 3.1B we have now. I think we're good. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:01, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

  Does our main article even mention the other estimates? No, right? starship.paint (talk) 12:14, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

  No, right. Another reason not to show an average. Thanks for pointing that out. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

• Keep - It`s relevant...how in the world does the omitting of relevant information in another article override the need to include it in in this one ? 2600:1702:2340:9470:D968:91F2:DF40:9D92 (talk) 17:10, 11 June 2019 (UTC) 2600:1702:2340:9470:4508:F435:DD46:91FB (talk) 15:47, 9 June 2019 (UTC) — 2600:1702:2340:9470:4508:F435:DD46:91FB (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:32, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
• We don't know what he is worth, so why pretend otherwise? This is blatantly misleading the readers, and I don't think it is necessary. But since other editors disagree: who decides which estimate to go with, and why is Trump's assessment being simply ignored, when Trump (and his accountants) is the o nly one who actually knows, at this point in time? zzz (talk) 11:15, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

  why is Trump's assessment being simply ignored? - Because Trump is well known for self-promotion, self-aggrandizement, and outright lying. That's not my biased viewpoint, it's per what is likely the second-widest RS agreement Misplaced Pages has ever seen on such a highly visible topic, after "Hitler was bad". He is the least reliable source for his net worth there could possibly be. As for his accountants, they will say what he pays them to say if they want to keep his business.As for why we chose Forbes, it's probably because (1) Forbes is arguably the best-known of the three, and (2) it's fairly arbitrary when the range of estimates is a mere $360 million, less than 12% of the Forbes estimate. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

The infobox should be reserved for known facts. Thanks for your reply, but that is far too convoluted, not to mention questionably BLP-compliant. Not only do we not know the correct figure, but the fact that we don't know is an extremely important part of his biography. zzz (talk) 12:35, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Bias in this article

Investigations

Has there been discussion previously of developing the "Investigations of Donald Trump" page, which currently redirects to this article? The NYT reported there were 29 open investigations as of May 2019. Would it make sense to retitle that "Investigations of President Donald Trump?Farcaster (talk) 14:47, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

That looks like a notable topic in itself. Feel free to start a dedicated article, if you've got the energy. — JFG 21:27, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes @Farcaster:, there was a discussion either on this page or his presidency's page, but apparently nobody has the time or energy to do so. starship.paint (talk) 12:39, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

The tricky thing is that it's hard to find content that would be in scope. Most of the content that editors might think of is about investigations into Trump's associates, not verifiably about Trump himself. There has been some recent discussion about this at User talk:BullRangifer/sandbox/Surveillance of Donald Trump and associates. R2 (bleep) 17:31, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

I would think due the reality of the numerous investigations there should be an article on them..with a link in this one...it would be absurd to argue they are not relevant...the one paragraph blurb barely glosses over them and links only to timelines of the investigations rather than the investigations themselves...the belief that this is some kind of minor footnote is ridiculous...a link to a link is not good enough. 2600:1702:2340:9470:D968:91F2:DF40:9D92 (talk) 17:03, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Did anyone say that it would be not relevant or that it should be some kind of minor footnote? R2 (bleep) 17:14, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

I didn`t say they did..what I said is I don`t see a summery of some kind regarding these investigations and a link to a new inclusive article regarding them..this is news and relevant...a lot people see these investigations as extremely relevant as a whole but are not going to spend hours sifting through various articles in order to get to the truth...There needs to be a separate article on Misplaced Pages about this with..and this is just as important...a link to it here...I support the creation of a new article. 2600:1702:2340:9470:2988:F2AB:2919:37CC (talk) 19:48, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

The proposed title is unclear. Do we include the word "President"? (None of the other dozens of articles about him include it in the title.) Does "of" mean investigations into DT, or investigations by DT (like the ones he has ordered William Barr to start)? Does it mean just him personally, or does it include his business? his foundation? his family? his associates? I really don't think we are ready to launch such a page until we agree on what it will cover. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:31, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 12 June 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. WP:SNOW close. No rationale given, and the WP:COMMONNAME seems clear. Practically unanimous opposition was expressed. (non-admin closure) —BarrelProof (talk) 23:17, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Donald Trump → Donald J. Trump – Please correctly rename this page Donald J. Trump. Buster Reynolds (talk) 09:30, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

• Procedural abort - Exactly this request was made in January 2017, and it failed per WP:SNOW. See Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 44#Requested move 20 January 2017. This appears to be an illegitimate request, but I'm not sure how to handle that. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:15, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

  2 years is long enough to reconsider this per WP:AGF, so we should leave it open until/unless the !votes show that the result is clear. Iffy★Chat -- 10:20, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

  I'm not sure what AGF has to do with it, nobody's good faith is being challenged here, and I disagree with your reasoning. Nothing has changed regarding usage of his name since Jan 2017. Will defer to consensus as always. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:24, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Iffy★Chat -- 10:16, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, and disambiguation is not needed. The "J" never entered the picture during Trump's long career of reality TV and shiny gold buildings, so why should it now?- MrX 🖋 10:56, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Support Fake news! Lugnuts 12:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. His clear common name is Donald Trump. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose — and since the nominator didn't see fit to include any supporting rationale whatsoever, also recommend speedy closure. ╠╣uw  13:07, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - I'm just going to pile on here and endorse a speedy close. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:38, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose He likes to style himself "Donald J. Trump". However, the credible sources almost always style him "Donald Trump". He doesn't get a free WP:SYNTH pass because he's the President. -- Sleyece (talk) 14:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose, mostly per what others have said. This is an unnecessary change. Geolodus (talk) 14:11, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Weak oppose per WP:CONCISE and WP:NCP and Britannica uses just "Donald Trump". I don't think this is the same as say John F. Kennedy. As someone in England I don't think I've heard "Donald J. Trump" much but have heard "John F. Kennedy" plenty. I don't think WP:INITS is satisfied. Crouch, Swale (talk) 14:36, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, per WP:CONCISE, per WP:NCP, per above. I'd also endorse a speedy close, Paintspot Infez (talk) 15:27, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. No one is confused by this title and it's the most common name used. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose – this is not a John F. Kennedy situation. The POTUS is exclusively referred to as simply, Donald Trump. Oppose per COMMONNAME. CookieMonster755✉ 17:18, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Comment - Incidentally, Donald J Trump averages 22 hits per day, Donald J. Trump averages 257 hits per day, and Donald Trump averages 98,434 hits per day (data courtesy of toollabs:pageviews). The first two redirect to the latter anyway, so this is a waste of everyone's time. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:31, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose He's better known without the middle initial/name.LM2000 (talk) 19:29, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose: as the user above me said, Trump is more commonly referred to as "Donald Trump," without his middle initial. Thissecretperson (talk) 20:15, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose and speedy close per WP:COMMONNAME. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Don't forget to share a Thanks ♥) 20:49, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Snow oppose. I agree with the consensus. I don't think there's anything procedurally defective about the proposal, but its chance of succeeding is exactly zero. R2 (bleep) 20:55, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose There is absolutely no need for this. Most people refer to him without his middle initial, and this just makes it harder to access the article. BobRoberts14 (talk) 20:57, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per common name. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:43, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moving content from this article

I would like to bring attention to some of the excessive detail that we have on this article. For example in the early life section, the last two paragraphs are about events that have happened in the last ten years, although they reflect on his early life. They don't appear to belong on this article, but removing this content from Misplaced Pages altogether seems like censorship so I'm hesitant to take that step. Ideally this article would be more like Barack Obama, generally regarded as a good article, where most sections are essentially summaries of sub-articles. Onetwothreeip (talk) 23:39, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

@Onetwothreeip: support splitting this up, but not removing completely - I've had similar thought recently --DannyS712 (talk) 23:53, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

I would start with something like Early life of Donald Trump, and moving more of the content here to the subarticle about his business career, which should probably be combined with the article about his wealth. Onetwothreeip (talk) 00:12, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

The last paragraph probably doesn't belong in this article. The second to the last paragraph does, but it can be be shortened.- MrX 🖋 12:47, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Article size

Within a space of 24 hours, the article has been tagged as {{too long}} and we exceeded the template limits yet again (see archives for history). We still have either 20 months or 68 months to go and this problem is not going away for some time.

The {{too long}} template message suggests we consider splitting, condensing, or adding subheadings (unclear how the latter makes an article shorter). Short of moving the bottom half of the article to Donald Trump, page 2, I see no way to split that hasn't already been done. As I see it, that leaves two options:

1. Scalpel approach. Every time we exceed the template limit, drop one or more non-citation templates as was done here today. Or find some prose to remove with its associated citation templates.
2. Chainsaw approach. This being the top-level biography, remove the recentist near-daily chronology of politics and government and stop adding that kind of content.

Support #2 as far easier, while making a lot of sense anyway. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:48, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I assume the "page 2" proposal has been made in jest. We absolutely should not have the daily chronology of politics on this article, as you say. There's also frankly too much prose in this article as well, because more keeps getting added without anything being removed or replaced. Onetwothreeip (talk) 10:13, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I support the spirit of #2, but editors will have different opinions about what's important and what's not. We can't just delete recent information if it's important. WP:RECENTISM should be seen as a guiding principal, not a rule.- MrX 🖋 12:47, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I think we should be able to reach a consensus endorsing a "resolution" that content related to his presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. That would clearly exclude "Trump also praised Poland under the EU-skeptic, anti-immigrant Law and Justice party (PiS) as a defender of Western civilization." Merely removing that and everything like it, and pointing to the consensus whenever somebody attempts to add something new like it, would in my opinion solve the size issues for the remainder of his presidency. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution would not apply, but I don't think there would be any editors claiming that the example given is likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. And nobody would call it summary-level in any case. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:04, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I agree to this, without the need for a specific resolution. I think we can exercise judgement here and let editors remove what they see fit to remove along these lines, and restore it if there is disagreement. In general anything that looks like it was added to the article the day that it happened doesn't belong on the article. Onetwothreeip (talk) 13:56, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

That's essentially no change to what we have now, which is what got us to where we are now. I would have already done tons of BOLD removals (and BRD reverts of additions, to the small extent allowed by ArbCom), but I knew that would be seen as disruptive without a group agreement that those removals move the article in the right direction. It would also consume an inordinate amount of time debating the principle at the detail level, one removal at a time. I therefore strongly oppose that approach. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:31, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

You waited for a BOT to announce this page was too long to finally agree something must be done about it? You restored totally tangential material that exists solely to malign Trump supporters and has nearly zero to do with this BLP. You recently argued that there is no reason things cannot appear verbatim in not only this article but in 3,4,5 other daughter articles as well, which totally defeats the purpose of having daughter articles. Are you considering forking numerous sections or just trimming the fat? For the record, the Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama featured articles are 300K and 340K respectively and this one, which isn't even within a hope and prayer of being rated a Good Article, much less a featured one is just over 450K.--MONGO (talk) 15:12, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Please look for a fight elsewhere, we're trying to have a constructive discussion here. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:18, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I really am not looking for a fight, but I do want to hear how you plan on trimming this when the opposite has been true Mandruss...do you want help or is this just talk? Can you pick sections in particular you think need to be trimmed or moved whole or in part to daughter articles or perhaps new articles?--MONGO (talk) 15:30, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Language like do you want help or is this just talk? belies your claim that you are not looking for a fight. Of course I want to help, and of course this is not just talk. I gave one illustrative example, and it doesn't take a lot of imagination to extrapolate that to the numerous other examples like it. I think you've largely missed the gist of my comments. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:59, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Last few times I tried to keep some of the recentism at bay and keep this article from spinning out of control it simply led to nonstop arguments and some of the worst lack of AGF I have ever encountered on this website. So lets say I start cleaning up things, am I once again going to have to explain every single adjustment?--MONGO (talk) 16:07, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Well gosh, that sounds a lot like what I said here, so shouldn't we be on the same side on this? ―Mandruss ☎ 16:12, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Lets look at the Barack Obama article, a Featured level article. It has roughly 500 sources...and I think that is excessive, but this one has over 900 sources. Kbs are also based on the space taken up by sources, so one way the "fat" can be trimmed right off without losing content is to simply dump the less authoritative reliable sources and especially, unless something has been totally in nonstop dispute, cease backing it up with 4,5 6 separate sources, many of which only parrot what the primary source says anyway. One might be able to trim 25-30K just by a mass reduction of redundancy in sources.--MONGO (talk) 16:22, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes! More sauce, fewer sources! -- Scjessey (talk) 16:30, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes, we could certainly trim redundant sources starting with the less reputable ones first. However, it is incumbent upon any editor removing sources to make absolutely sure that the remaining source(s) fully verifies the article text as written.- MrX 🖋 16:34, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I’d just like to say that if you remove information, can you check whether it is already present in a sub-article or a related article. If no, insert it there. Thanks. starship.paint (talk) 14:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I support removal of whatever falls under RECENTISM, has no lasting value, and/or represents yada yada opinions & gossip that are not supported by corroborated factual information. The article is not a summary; rather, it's more like a scrapbook of news articles. _Talk 📧 15:53, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I agree, this article is not well constructed, since it has way too much throughout that is unnecessary. For example, the start of the article lists dozens of his policies, when that is not something necessary in the lede. His travel ban was major, but that was over two years ago, and it is no longer a large issue either way. Same goes for a lot of other fluff that belongs in separate articles. BobRoberts14 (talk) 15:58, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

The lede is absolutely the last place to begin cutting, and also by far the most difficult. There's a ton of low hanging fruit in sections on early life, family, religion, his business career, the election, and his presidency to trim away at first. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:03, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I still believe the lede needs to be cut, because some of the policies aren't as major as policies that aren't even in the lede. Obama's policy part of the lede is as long as Donald Trump's, even though Obama was president for six more years. BobRoberts14 (talk) 16:36, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

Proposal for resolution

Resolved: Content related to his presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply.

• Support as proposer, and per my comments in the preceding subsection. I ask those who haven't read them to do so, as they comprise my argument. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:50, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
• Support I agree that this article needs to be trimmed in many areas, and certain parts of the need to be removed and/or replaced with more important information. BobRoberts14 (talk) 16:52, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
• Support the resolution. If only this could apply to all biographies! The problem I see is that "likely to have a lasting impact" is a judgement call that requires peering into a crystal ball somewhat. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

  I don't think the following will require a judgment call to remove per the resolution: "Trump also praised Poland under the EU-skeptic, anti-immigrant Law and Justice party (PiS) as a defender of Western civilization." It isn't even summary-level. Just eliminating all the things like that will yield a very significant reduction in article size. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Level of Importance

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There are over 2000 who are listed as Level 4 Vital Importance in People, and most are completely unknown, so why isn't this article Level 4 importance? Currently Donald Trump is only Level 5 Importance in People. BobRoberts14 (talk) 14:15, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

What has this man done to justify his importance? starship.paint (talk) 14:33, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Importance needn't be positive importance. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:36, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

To which WikiProject importance level is this thread referring? -- Scjessey (talk) 15:32, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

He's the president of the United States, whether his actions are good or not is completely irrelevant. Hitler is listed as Level 3 Vital Importance, even though he was a horrible mass murderer. Hitler is just listed because he is well known and had a large effect on the world. Donald Trump is an article that is read by hundreds of thousands of people, and is most certainly Level 4 Vital Importance at least. If someone such as Adi Shankara is Level 3 Importance, Donald Trump should at least be Level 4. BobRoberts14 (talk) 15:39, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

Scjessey I am saying that Donald Trump should be at least a Level 4 Vital People Article. BobRoberts14 (talk) 15:43, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts

My main point is, many people who are Level 4 Vital Importance in People, such as Alain Delon, do not have anywhere close to the effect on the world that the President has, and they definitely are not as well known. That's why I don't understand how their articles are Level 4 Vital Importance and Donald Trump's article is only Level 5. BobRoberts14 (talk) 15:43, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

As I understand it, a vital article rating relates to the quality of the article. This article hasn't been able to reach good article status yet. With controversial figures, it is hard to get the agreement and article stability for it to happen. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:57, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Oh okay, I didn't know that. I thought Importance just related to how important the subject of the article is. You're saying it is actually based on how good the article is as well? BobRoberts14 (talk) 15:59, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

That's my understanding, yes. I see that regular contributor Rreagan007 also swims in the vital subjects pool. Perhaps they can help explain more fully? -- Scjessey (talk) 16:07, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I checked a few Level 4 Importance in People articles, and they weren't actually listed as Good Articles. https://en.wikipedia.org/Alec_Guinness for example. BobRoberts14 (talk) 16:12, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

This is not really my thing, and it isn't really an appropriate subject for this talk page either. I suggest reading this page for an explanation of how it works, and then seeking any additional answers at the vital articles talk page. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:16, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I will read those, but either way, I don't see any specific reason as to why this can't be listed as Level 4 Vital Importance in People, since Donald Trump us definitely important enough BobRoberts14 (talk) 16:18, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

Would you say Trump is "more important" than Bill Clinton, who is also a Level 5? I certainly wouldn't. Besides, it is MUCH easier to rate articles for presidents after they leave office and the articles become more stable. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:28, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

First off, Bill Clinton is no longer president, so yes, I would say Donald Trump's article is more important. It has hundreds of thousands of more readers and is updated far more often. Second, if Bill Clinton's article is only Level 5, yet there are many Level 4 articles on people who I have never even heard off, that sounds like a problem to me. "Importance" does not imply quality of the article, it means how important the subject (in this case person) is. BobRoberts14 (talk) 16:32, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

It doesn't matter at all that Trump is the current president. That does not make him more important. Again, this is not the place to discuss this issue. Bring it up at the vital articles talk page. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:35, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

You don't make any sense at all. Of course a current president normally matters more than a past one. Past president's policies are almost always replaced by newer ones in the future, and their wikipedia articles normally have less readers than the current president. Trump is still enacting new policies, and his policies always have an effect on Americans today, while almost every past president (pre-modern) has had their policies replaced at some time in the future. BobRoberts14 (talk) 19:57, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

The purpose of the vital articles lists is to have a centralized watch list of articles that are important (or vital) for the English Misplaced Pages to have a high-quality (or featured) article. There are 5 different levels. All U.S. presidents are listed at Level 5, a couple dozen are listed at Level 4, and two are listed at Level 3. Bumping up the Trump article to Level 4 was discussed over a year ago, but some people thought it was too soon in his presidency to make that determination. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:32, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

It's no longer "too soon", since he is very well known and has been President for over two years, enacting numerous policies within that time frame. BobRoberts14 (talk) 19:42, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

Policies in the Lede

In my opinion, the section on Trump's policies in the lede is way too long and needs to be cut back. It's about the size of Obama's policies in the lede, except Trump has been president for two years and Obama was for eight. His travel ban isn't even that major of a policy anymore, as I stated before, and recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel did not have much of an effect on anything, it was almost completely formal (other than moving the US embassy, but Israel's political buildings are mostly in Tel Aviv). Banning transgender soldiers from the military only removed a few thousand soldiers, and although it was controversial, it still wasn't that major of a policy, since they were banned from the military already until 2016, and Obama's reversal of the Don't Act Don't Tell policy wasn't in the lede of his article. What I am saying is, whether or not you agree with these policies (I personally don't agree with some of his policies, such as the ban on transgender soldiers), I think these policies can be removed and replaced with larger ones. For example, he has placed more sanctions on Venezuela, and also proposed withdrawing soldiers from the Middle East, among many other policies. But for now, the less major ones should just be removed, since they are placed later in the article anyways. BobRoberts14 (talk) 16:09, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

I think it highly unlikely any of this will happen in the near future. Trimming the article (per the thread above) is of paramount importance, and editors should focus on that for the time being. Changes to the lede are highly controversial, with almost every single word negotiated in epic, exhausting discussions lasting for days and weeks. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:21, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Whether or not it would be difficult isn't the question though. What I am saying is that the lede includes some policies that are not very important compared to some others. I am saying certain policies that were put in place over two years ago and did not do as much as others should be left in other sections, and instead replaced with newer, larger policies. BobRoberts14 (talk) 16:29, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

I don't think we should be looking solely at net policy impact to decide whether a policy should be included in the lead section. Some policies are important because they have political or some other historical significance, not because they had some significant boots-on-the-ground effect. I don't think that sanctions on Venezuela or Russia or troop withdrawals from the Middle East have as much much historical significance, relatively speaking, as what's currently there. Also, the Russia sanctions aren't Trump's policy, so including them would be highly misleading. R2 (bleep) 18:12, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Trump did increase sanctions on Russia, that just wasn't his main policy, so I agree that it shouldn't be in the lead. I was just giving examples of other policies. His sanctions on Venezuela affected billions of dollars though, and withdrawing thousands of troops from the Middle East is most certainly major. BobRoberts14 (talk) 18:27, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

Trump increased sanctions on Russia? Sources please. R2 (bleep) 22:33, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/03/trump-signs-russia-sanctions-bill-moscow-calls-it-trade-war.html and also https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/new-russia-sanctions-will-likely-target-oligarchs-close-putin-n862996 BobRoberts14 (talk) 22:36, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

Ha, that's a pretty gross misrepresentation. The first source you cite says Trump grudgingly signed the 2017 bill, which conflicted with his desires, because he knew that a veto would be overridden. The second source is about the April 2018 sanctions, which Trump himself resisted. We are not going to say anything about sanctions on Russia, in the lead or anywhere else, without conveying this information. R2 (bleep) 22:55, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

First off, you can't say that he didn't do something because he didn't want to. Second, I already said that it is too minor to belong in the lede, so your not contributing anything by repeating that. I was just giving an example of one of his policies. BobRoberts14 (talk) 22:57, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

Just because he did something (unwillingly) doesn't make it one of his policies. But you're right, this is effectively moot. R2 (bleep) 22:59, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Also, I'm not going to take advice from someone who argues with admins and literally says "Go the fuck away for 24 hours, you stupid excuse of an admin." BobRoberts14 (talk) 23:00, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

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