Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:19, 27 November 2006

Why do "single-party state" and "one-party system" exist as separate articles with links to each other, rather than one of them just being a redirect page pointing to the other? Michael Hardy 21:41 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

I think you can safely go ahead and merge them. --Kaihsu 21:46 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

Anyone want to go ahead and complete Political party, Christian democracy, and a proper Populism (scandalous gaping holes in Misplaced Pages)? --Kaihsu 21:53 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

Two out of three now. Anyone taking Christian democracy? --Kaihsu 17:50, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

If one-party state is one where no opposition parties are allowed, PRC is not a one party state. If a one-party state is one in which one party dominates, and other parties are inconsequential, you can call PRC a one party state. This needs to be cleared up in the article, though. Slrubenstein

Communism multi-party

East Germany and Communist Poland were not single-party. There were some Agrarian Party and so. Not that they were very effective. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.224.97.143 (talk • contribs) 15:39, March 25, 2004 (UTC).

Those miniscule parties were allowed to exist as evidence of some measure of formal democracy, but they never could win enough seats to challenge the Communist Parties of the countries in question. Rigged elections ensured that small non-Communist parties not subservient to the Communists had no real power.

Even a guarantee of an assured majority for one Party, so long as that Party operates in lockstep, ensures that the Party will get its way in all parliamentary proceedings, and real power is in the Party leadership. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paul from Michigan (talk • contribs) 06:01, June 30, 2006 (UTC).

Western Sahara

Is Western Sahara single-party (supposing it is a state, that is)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.224.97.143 (talk • contribs) 15:39, March 25, 2004 (UTC).

Morocco controls it and allows it to elect parliamentarians, so it is essentially subject to the Moroccan political system. —Sesel 20:03, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Capitalism

Where in the world has a one party state arisen from Capitalism? Let's see Hong Kong doesn't have a one party system, neither does the United States. Canada, the UK, please someone tell me where a one party state has arisen from Capitalism. Don't get it mixed up with Corporatism either. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.71.223.140 (talk • contribs) November 11, 2005 (UTC) .

You obviously don't know about world history. Here are only 26 examples; there are MANY more:

• Bangladesh (Ershad)
• Burundi (Bagaza, Buyoya)
• Cambodia (Lon Nol)
• Cameroon (Ahidjo, Biya)
• Central African Republic (Dacko, Bokassa, Kolingba)
• Chad (Tombalbaye, Habré, Déby)
• Côte d'Ivoire (Houphouët-Boigny)
• Djibouti (Gouled)
• Dominican Republic (Trujillo, Balaguer)
• Equatorial Guinea (Obiang Nguema Mbasogo)
• Gabon (M'ba, Bongo)
• Guatemala (Ubico)
• Indonesia (Suharto)
• Kenya (Moi)
• Liberia (True Whig Party)
• Malawi (Banda)
• Mauritania (Daddah, Salek, Haidalla, Louly, Bouceif, Taya)
• Niger (Diori, Kountché, Saibou, Maïnassara)
• Pakistan (Ayub, Yahya, Zia)
• Paraguay (Stroessner)
• Philippines (Marcos)
• Portugal (Salazar, Caetano)
• Rwanda (Kayibanda, Habyarimana)
• Taiwan (Chiang Kai-shek and successors)
• Togo (Olympio, Eyadéma)
• Tunisia (Bourguiba)

—Seselwa 00:38, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

You obviously don't know much about capitalism or economics, all of those countries have very low levels of economic freedom (capitalism). Hong Kong, Iceland, Estonia, Ireland, Luxembourgh, Singapore (dominant party state), Denmark, New Zealand, USA,UK, Australia all have the highest levels of economic freedom and (with the exception of Singapore) are unarguably not single party states. Get your facts together. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.72.176.167 (talk • contribs) 20:29, June 30, 2006 (UTC).

NPOV

I have edited the article in an attempt at a more neutral point of view. As it stood before my edits, the article had a strong point of view that a single-party state was not democratic, and therefore was evil (for example the idea that a single party state needs to "justify" the fact that it is a single party state). I also attempted to move items dealing with the definition and function of a single party state more to the top of the article, and moved discussion on the overlap of dictatorship and the single party system more toward the bottom. Ignus 01:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm concerned that this article is now biased slightly in favour of single-party states. The article cites supporters of single-party states; not enough people credibly hold this opinion for it to be given equal weight. The article should state more strongly the association between dictatorship and single-party states. A single-party state, after all, is not democratic. Alksub 07:15, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

One-party states aren't liberal democracies, but that doesn't make them inherently non-democratic. —Sesel 07:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

(no section title)

Can anyone please label the other colors in the first map shown in the article. It just states that 'brown' color are single party states, what about other colors ? Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sai Kumar Banala (talk • contribs) 23:23, May 2, 2006 (UTC).

Singapore

This article is about states where there is extraordinarly power used to enforce single party (the consitution and/or military) and not merely a dominant political party, no matter how large it's voting margin. Accordingly, I'm dropping Singapore. Jon 18:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Someone added the Singapore entry with "other parties exist but face governmental and judicial discrimination" as justification. "Discrimination", however, is not the same as an outright constitutional ban as is the gist of this article. Which democracy today dosent feature discrimination between political parties, anyhow?--Huaiwei 15:33, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The article clearly differs between states that are de jure single-party states and de facto single party state. Singapore is a de facto single-party state, and should be included. --Regebro 15:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Singapore has a opposition scene which is much more alive and kicking than what western liberals would like the world to believe, which far differentiates it from any of the so-called "de facto" single-party states. When you have a source saying "Citizens of Singapore cannot change their government democratically", it immediately looses all credibility as far as I am concerned. The ruling party wouldnt need to work so desperately hard, including having to get its usually straight-laced politicians to let themselves loose in night clubs if this was true!--Huaiwei 16:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, right, all sources that doesn't agree with your opinion is automatically uncredible. That's serious. --Regebro 20:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Any why would I not be surprised we will come to this? See below for my response. Thankfully, it cuts both ways.--Huaiwei 00:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The indentation below is getting silly, so I'll summarize the dispute:

The article divides Single-party states into two groups, one that by law forbids other parties, and one "de facto" group. I quote: In most cases, parties other than the one in power are banned, although some systems guarantee a majority for one favored party that ensures the impotence of any parties relegated by law or practice (including rigged elections) to a permanent status as a miniscule and impotent minority.

According to ALL independant sources on Singapores political system, Singapores ruling party is indeed using various law, practices such as jailing opponents, suing them into bancruptcy, controlling media with heavy censorship and even banning meetings: http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=22&year=2005&country=6829 http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/DEMOCRACY_TABLE_2007_v3.pdf http://www.economist.com/theworldin/international/displayStory.cfm?story_id=8166790&d=2007 http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/sgp-summary-eng http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=17360&Valider=OK This has rendered the opposition in Singapore powerless, and Singaporeans have, and I quote from Freedomhouses report: "Citizens of Singapore cannot change their government democratically."

Thusly, the description in the article of a de-facto Single-party state fits Singapore perfectly. Singapore is a state where opposition parties are not illehgal, but where they are with undemocratic means prevented from functioning properly.

The Singaporeasn meanwhile refuse to acknowledge this, and claims that Singaporeans can change their goverment democratically, but that they have just chosen to not do so, despite overwhelming evidence to the opposite.

This discussion will not be able to go forward unless the Singaporeans can prove that both Freedomhouse, Amnesty international, Reporters without borders and The Economist all are incorrect on the topic of Singapore, and that Singapore in fact is a fully functioning democracy. --Regebro 09:29, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, we did challenge you on the accuracy of reports from any of those sources. Did you respond in kind? Nah. You just tell us the answer is "embedded somewhere in those sources" as thou expecting all readers to infer the exact same conclusions as you would. Thankfully, the world is much more plural than that. So again I ask. Respond to each of my questions above, and lets have a point-by-point discourse. Are you up to the challenge?--Huaiwei 15:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

No, you did not challenge me on this. You have said that I did not provide any sources. That is not a challenge on the accuracy of the reports. You are here again seemingly claiming that Amnesty International, Freedomhouse, The Economist and RFS (and HRW, although I didn't link to them) ALL are incorrect. For that to be true, they have to be in some sort of conspiracy together, as it is rather unlikely that they would have reached the same incorrect conclusion independantly.

I already asked to to go to a forum suited for those debates, like Wikireason, do discuss this issue, and I already noted that this is NOT a good forum for doing that. You did not. Hence, the question is are YOU up to the challenge? I think not. You haven't provided one single source to support your standpoint, You just claim that Singapore is democratic, with nothing to support that statetement. I think it is time for YOU to show some support for YOUR standpoint. --Regebro 16:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I symphathise with individuals who suffer from temporary amnesia (for a nicer reference to a state of denial), but I clearly did issue a challenge before . Need I say further? ;)--Huaiwei 16:33, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

1. That is not a challenge for the accuracy of the sources. 2. I have supported my claim with sources, you have responded with insults. I rest my case. --Regebro 17:06, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

No claim of inappriopriate (and simply dishonest) behavior is true until you could provide the relevant diffs. I did. Did you? As far as I remember, we are still awaiting your sources and your answers to many pertinent questions. Whether these questions are aimed at denting the factual accuracy of your sources should not be the main reason for your refusal to go into the details, unless you simply could not engage in such a discourse. I am hardly surprised if the later is true.--Huaiwei 22:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh while we are at this, I was reflecting on your suggestion on utilising Wikireason. I am sorry, but are you suggesting Wikireason is a valid source for wikipedia's factual verification process?--Huaiwei 13:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Factual verification is not an issue here. All independent sources agree on the facts. I'm suggesting Wikireason as an intriguing and novel way of discussing issues. --Regebro 13:59, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Instantnood's political views on Singapore

- User:Huaiwei has insisted that Singapore is not a single-party state, despite it's decribed as such elsewhere from Misplaced Pages , even by an academic from the National University of Singapore (). He argued Singapore has a dorminant-party system but not a single-party system, since in single-party states no parties other than the governing ones exist . He also challenged to accept the fact that non-governing parties in the People's Republic of China, North Korea and Syria are legal .

The real side of the fact is that in countries like Japan there's no law preventing other parties to challenge the governing party. In Singapore politicians in opposition are frequently sued by the government into bankruptcy, and the electoral system is such designed that the opposition parties have trouble to fill candidates to stand in elections. Although not a good thing according to modern western standard, this can be a good thing and might have been a positive factor contributing to Singapore's economic success. Yet he has accused me for being disruptive, and has requested attention on my edits from his fellow Singaporeans . — Instantnood 19:18, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Huaiwei is right, Singapore is not a single-party state. --Vsion 04:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Apparantly my request has been proven effective. Your only justifications to call Singapore a "single-party state" are based on what you consider "real". Are you therefore suggesting all other contributors are faking things here on wikipedia? I would certainly think this comment warrants the attention of the entire Singaporean wikicommunity, irrespective of where they marked their crosses on their voting slips a few months ago.

You argue, that "politicians in opposition are frequently sued by the government into bankruptcy". Have you done a profiling exercise on these individuals to form a nuetral position on this issue? Are you able to show, that politial parties are rendered illegal by this action? Has the opposition been sued to oblivion? Just how many opposition members were sued, in ratio to the entire opposition community here?

You argue, that "the electoral system is such designed that the opposition parties have trouble to fill candidates to stand in elections". Care to elaborate on this electorial system, and how it works to that effect? Also mind telling us if all other democracies on planet earth do not engage in similar actions to maintain and/or enhance their own political position?--Huaiwei 13:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

And by the above, I hope you are not calling Singapore a "single-party state" on just these two points alone?--Huaiwei 13:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand how one would loves his country, but it's never a rational manner to called upon attention of any community, with the only reason to be shared geographical origin. From the perspectives from within Singapore these politicians may be deserved for their sentences, but there are many different views from the rest of the world, and these views should also be represented on Misplaced Pages. As for the electoral system, I guess I've explained why. To elaborate, parties in opposition have difficulties to fill candidates in the multi-member constituencies, allowing candidates from the ruling party to be declared winners unopposed. No ruling party in any liberal and democratic polity in the world would have manipulated the electoral system as such. The Singapore experience is far more an issue than, say, Gerrymandering. — Instantnood 10:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I note with a touch of humour that the word "love" is being used in such a context and in this discussion. Could you discuss how someone's "love" for a country is of any relevance to a discourse on a political system in a said political entity?

If it is never "rationale" to call up wikimembers from a community in this instance, would you stand by the assertion that all such similar actions are irrational and unjustified in all instances in wikipedia? And would you dare swear to God that you have never done the same?

On what basis do you comment that the perspective from within Singapore supports the sentencing each of the said politicians receive? Are you therefore suggesting, that the world abeit Singapore is against these sentences? That all 4 million souls in Singapore are supporting these sentences with both hands raised? That Singaporean contibutors are unable to write balanced, NPOV articles without the help of the global community?

Your statement on the electoral system is simply a longer sentence from your original comment, with no new information added, and no explaination whatsoever. Just how is this political tool unique to Singapore, how "serious" is it in relation to the global democratic community, and if being "unique" means greater damage to the democratic process? Perhaps you also missed the point of my original comment. I used the words "similar actions", but this does refer merely to what you are attempting (quite poorly) to describe, but includes every means of keeping a political party in power. How would you like to comment in this?

If the "Singapore experience" goes beyond Gerrymandering, mind telling us just what goes beyond that? How do these collectively render Singapore a single-party state? Since you consider yourself in the position to critique Singapore's political system to the point of calling it a single-party state, I would certainly think you have much more to say than this? What is holding you back? Self-censorship?

It appears to me that in one fell swoop, you have made plenty of dangerous comments. I would think we all (and that doesnt refer only to Singaporeans) deserve a full explaination on each of them.--Huaiwei 10:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You can find the answer to most of your questions here: http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=22&year=2005&country=6829 Singapore is not a democracy, and is de facto a single-party state. --Regebro 15:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I challenge you to answer each question above based on that source. Then we can get about debating over them point by point.--Huaiwei 16:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. This is not a very good discussion forum, and there is nothing to discuss. All authorities on the question hold singapore as a non-democratic state. In addition to Freedomhouse there is also the Economists democracy index: http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/DEMOCRACY_TABLE_2007_v3.pdf , http://www.economist.com/theworldin/international/displayStory.cfm?story_id=8166790&d=2007, Amenstys report on Singapore is here http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/sgp-summary-eng, mentioning the restrictions in political freedom, and Reporters with out Borders report on Singapore reporting about how the press has no freedom: http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=17360&Valider=OK.

Singapore simply is not a democracy, but a single-party state. There is no judgement in stat statement, it is just a simple statement of fact. There was a request for comment done, this is my comment. This is not a conflict wich requires mediation, you are simply factually incorrect in this question. --Regebro 20:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that's what Amenstys, Reporters with out Borders and Economist think and that's their view, I can't say anything. I beg to differ that Singapore is a single-party state. The Singapore government does not ban any opposition party, and parties are allowed to be set up and have candidates contesting in the elections. If there was an election six months ago, is it still considered a single-party state to you? I don't see any bias in the electoral system and any proper evidence why Singapore is a single-party state. The PAP is a social democratic party, I don't think in anyway the government is a single-party state. There are three opposition MPs in Parliament (One NCMP and two MPs), does that still make you think Singapore is a single-party state? --Terence Ong _{(C | R)} 01:34, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Singapore is not a single-party state, but a dominant-party system. We have elections here, and 2 opposition parties (the WP and SDA) have a seat each. Opposition parties may be discriminated against, but are not outright banned. The following paragraph in the lead section of dominant-party system seems to describe the political situation in Singapore.

"However, in some dominant-party systems, opposition parties are subject to varying degrees of official harassment and most often deal with rules and electoral systems (such as gerrymandering of electoral districts) designed to put them at a disadvantage or in some cases outright electoral fraud."

--J.L.W.S. The Special One 08:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Once again, the article clearly differentiates between countyries who are formally one party states, and those who are formally multi-party states, but who are in practice a single-party state. Singapore is correctly listed under the latter heading. Neither of the articles make a clear distinction betwen de facto Single-party states (as Singapore) and Dominant-party states, as for example South Africa, and Singapore therefore currently matches both. Maybe we should define such a difference, maybe not. But the current issue is weather Singapore is a defacto one party state within the definition made in this article, and it is.

From the article: "In most cases, parties other than the one in power are banned, although some systems guarantee a majority for one favored party that ensures the impotence of any parties relegated by law or practice (including rigged elections) to a permanent status as a miniscule and impotent minority." This description fits Singapore completely. --Regebro 11:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no such guarantee, in fact G.W. Bush just said recently that Singapore is a model for neighbouring countries. Singapore's case is not unique, for parlimentary system of a small political entity (whether is it a county, province or nation), it is common for political parties to win big or lose big, and for one party to dominate for some time before another took over. This however should not be mistaken as a Single-party system. --Vsion 18:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

There is such a guarantee, thanks to the majority parties opression of political rights and freedoms. If you like to discuss weather Singapore is a democracy or not, maybe we can do that at www.wikireason.org, which I discovered today? There we can discuss the issue. But until then, the global consensus of all experts and organisations is that Singapore are in practice a single-party state. This is a fact. If you don't like it, I suggest you try to do something about it. But Misplaced Pages is here to tell the truth and the facts, not to present a polished version. --Regebro 18:21, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

It is pretty bold to claim the existance of a guarantee without the support of any hard evidence. For a system to "guarantee a majority for one favored party", I would not think it possible unless it is constitutionalised. Could you find such a guarantee from the Constitution of Singapore? Or for that matter, any part of Singapore's law books ? You insisted on adding Singapore for its "de facto" single-party status. To claim it is a single-party system by quarantee, however, is as good as claiming it is one by de jure. As for any factual claims in wikipedia, we await your relevant sources is support of your statement.--Huaiwei 23:56, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

With regards to the so-called "global consensus of all experts and organisations", I find it interesting that you have yet to find a single source which explicitely classifies Singapore as a Single-party state, whether by default or otherwise. And even if you could, whether this view is itself a widespread enough to represent "global concensus". Your view that it is one by de-facto amounts to your inference based on a set of evidence, a conclusion few other publications has actually arrived at. This smells very much like original research to me.

That is indeed interesting as I linked to one above. http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=22&year=2005&country=6829 No, they don't use the exact wording "Single-party state", but it is clear from that article and the others I linked to that Singapore fits the description as a de facto Single-party state as given in this article. --Regebro 01:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

You arent new to this site, but I find it worrisome that you appear to have rather radical views on the purpose and essense of this site. I sense you see it as an agent to advance your political viewpoints, especially given your outright attempt to incite political action. Why should you think citizens of another country would heed your suggestion to "do something about it"? Because they want to remove their country from a[REDACTED] article? May I also just gently remind, that Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, and is not a reflective pool for a single political view, in this case the western liberal one. By insisting on one view as fact, you effectively deny the existance of other viewpoints, which is not in sync with wikipedia's Neutral point of view policy. Misplaced Pages is about "truth and facts"? Not exactly. Misplaced Pages is about fairly representing the views as propagandered by all factions. Which of these constitutes as "the truth" is not within this site's jurisdiction to determine.--Huaiwei 00:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, and it is not a place to advance political viewpoints, and articles should be NPOV. And therefore, this article should reflect the fact that Singapore meets the criteria for a Single-party state as defined in the article. Your refusal to acknowledge this fact despite overwhelming evidence makes it impossible to have any constructive discussion with you. We will not get further on this issue. --Regebro 01:29, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Your response smacks of sheer hypocracy. Is NPOV = Freedomhouse, the Economist, Amnesty International, etc? Is NPOV = "overwelming" evidence (but all from the same inclination)? Is NPOV = your view on Singapore's democratic system? You insist I am in a state of denial, and claims no constructive discussion can arise. But it takes two persons to be in such a mental state for such an impasse to happen. Before insisting you have the backing of "overwelming evidence" (non of which actually support your view), why do you not take a step back and realise you may have a part to play in invoking a very undemocratic process here?--Huaiwei 15:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it does not take two persons for one person to be in a state of denial, that statement is very strange. Even stranger is your claims that I somehow would be a part of an undemocratic process, a claim I can't interpret anything else than an attempt to some sort of argumentum Ad Hominem. I would prefer this discussion to not be about me or you, but about the topic. And the topic is that you think that Singapore should not be on the list of de-facto Single-party states, even though it matches the definition, according to all independent observers. Your response to this has been to deny that all independent observers agree on this issue, even though you have not been able to explain why, or come with any independant sources that declare singapre a democracy. If you want to call that "being in denial", then that's up to you. --Regebro 16:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

It is nothing strange, unless one has issues in basic English comprehension. My statement reads But it takes two persons to be in such a mental state for such an impasse to happen. I didnt say But it takes two persons to be in such a mental state for one person to be in a state of denial. A state of denial, perhaps? Now if Misplaced Pages were indeed a democracy, then I am afraid you will just have to bite your tongue and go home to your mum, coz this discussion is clearly numerically against your favour, the very tenent of a democratic process. It it interesting to note that you cant even recognise you are part of an undemocratic process. A state of denial, perhaps? But you certainly deserve credit for finally admitting the fact that this discussion is skewed towards individuals, what with your constant berating comments on individuals here who dared to oppose your views. But I find it so damn humurous that you then immediately launch into "And the topic is that you think...". I am sorry, but this isnt about what I think. Its about what the community and third party sources think. If you cant even do what you preach, you dont really have to try too hard. The sense of denial can creep in very easily as a result. ;)--Huaiwei 16:28, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Just curious, how do you claim that "the global consensus of all experts and organisations is that Singapore are in practice a single-party state"? If you can't provide a single reliable source, your statement here is hardly convincing. --Vsion 01:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Denouncing Freedoumhouse, Amnesty international and reporters without borders as not being reliable does not exactly help your credibility. --Regebro 01:53, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Please stop playing tricks, you haven't provide any source to support your statement. --Vsion 02:07, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I provided above links to four different internationally respected sources, three neutral NGO's and the respected magazine The Economist. These all support me in my statements. I therefore read your claim that I haven't provided any sources with great disbelif. I have a hard time believing that you actually wrote that. The sources are given above, please read them. These organisations are the ones you need to convince that Singapore is democratic, not me. --Regebro 02:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

If I may just sidetrack this discussion abit, but how would you conclude those sources are "internationally respected" and "neutral"? By the number of awards they receive from organisations who represent the international community, and organisations who advocate any other political stand? By the fact that they arent propaganding any political viewpoint?--Huaiwei 15:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

All above and more. Are you honestly trying to say that Amnesty International, Freedomhouse, Reporters without Borders and Human Rights Watch are all together in some sort of anti-Singaporean conspiracy? If you are not saying that, then I don't understand your point. These organisations ARE non-partisan well respected international organisations on human rights. --Regebro 16:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh really? Did Amnesty International win allocades from the PRC government for its "honest" comments on the state of affairs there? I have yet to hear of this one, but you boldly claims it is true...and more? Perhaps the North Korean regime lauds the Economist for being a "non-partisan" publication? My point is not merely pertaining to how they paint the Singaporean image to their audience. My concern is your insistance that each of these publiations or organisations reflect wikipeda's NPOV policy.--Huaiwei 13:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Why would PRCs opinion of Amnesty internationals reports have ANY bearing on this? I do not insist any any such thing, please stop discussing me and keep to the topic. --Regebro 14:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I am VERY well on topic, thank you very much. You claimed each of your sources are "internationally respected", are "nuetral", and "non-partisan". I would certainly think these bold claims need verifications, wont you think? I asked if these are respected by the global community, including by states or organisations of any political ideology. You resoundedly proclaimed "All above and more". This is the second time I notice you partook in dishonest behavior. While this be the last time? I doubt so. Again I insist. Show us these publications are indeed as "internationally respected", are "nuetral", and "non-partisan" as you claim, and show us they represent Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy, failing which you have zero grounds to insist your sources as factually correct.--Huaiwei 21:59, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Your sources didn't say that Singapore is a "Single-party state". --Vsion 02:47, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

My sources clearly say that the oppposition have no legal and peaceful means to win an election, which makes Singapore a de-facto one-party state according to the definitioned provided in this article. --Regebro 09:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

My God. Your sources actually say it is illegal for the opposition to win an election in Singapore? That the opposition cannot win an election without bloodshed? Citations please!--Huaiwei 13:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

No, my sources do not say that. My source said that there are no legal/peaceful means to win an election. That does not mean that it is "illegal to win". It means it is IMPOSSIBLE to win using legal and peaceful means. --Regebro 14:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

If you arent familiar with the English language, the word "impossible" means zero chances irrespective of all circumstance. It means even if more than 50% of Singaporeans vote for an opposition party, that party will not come to power. It means all votes ever cast by Singaporeans are null and void. Could you explain to me how would it possible for that to happen, unless the law say so? Or are you suggesting the PAP will refuse to accept an election result which is not in their favour, and will break the law to that effect? Could you or your sources answer these questions?--Huaiwei 16:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I can explain it this way: Singapore is just as much or as little a single-party state as all the states in that list. If you remove Singapore, you should remove ALL of them, and completely remove all mention of de-facto single-party states. But you didn't, you just removed Singapore. Did that make it clearer? --Regebro 13:23, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh really? Please find me ANY other state in this list (including the de-facto ones) which holds regular elections, with the last election contested by four political parties/alliances which are not puppets of the ruling party, where the ruling party candidates huddle in tears over fears of losing seats, where the opposition cheekily asked the crowd if they would like to work till the grand old age of 82, where the Prime Minister himself found it neccesary to tour all over the country, and stake his personal reputation on the election result of wards which are not his own, where the opposition, despite fielding teams with newbies in their mid-20s and pitting directly against the PM in his own ward, managed to grap as much as 1/3 of the votes, and where you have the ruling party's rallies attracting crowds of several hundreds at most, while the opposition sees crowds like these:

Could you?--Huaiwei 15:43, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Please find me ANY other state in this list (including the de-facto ones) which holds regular elections: Egypt and Western Sahara. contested by four political parties/alliances which are not puppets of the ruling party: Egypt again. where the ruling party candidates huddle in tears over fears of losing seats, where the opposition cheekily asked the crowd if they would like to work till the grand old age of 82: Please try to remain serious. They other two countries on the list, Eritra and Myanmar, are also legally multi-party democracies.

So, my attempt to explain this from another point of view failed. The problem remains. You, despite overwhelming evidence provided by me, continue to claim that Singapore is a democracy, when this is clearly not so. I'm trying to reason with you, but that is failing. So I ask: What kind of proof would convince you that Singapore is not a democracy? --Regebro 16:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Cut the nonsense and answer all the questions. Your persistant failure to face the factual questions at hand, while continuously hiding behind the veil of "overwhelming evidence" is beginning to raise questions on your personal integrity, just as much as you attempt to discredit others and question their integrity.--Huaiwei 16:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The only nonsense here is your questions. Do you really believe that a requirement of a democracy is that the "opposition cheekily askes the crowd if they would like to work till the grand old age of 82"? That question is not a serious question. As I have repeatedly said: This is not a good discussion forum. I will not discuss the details here. I have said that we can discuss this in a better forum, like wikireason if you will. But HERE we should discuss the ARTICLE. --Regebro 16:29, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I dont have much time to reply, so I'll just make some brief comments for now. My questions above each have a background meaning to it. For you to conclude they are nonsensical tels us several things, including your obvious unfamiliarity with Singapore's political situation beyond Western liberal propaganda. Anyone who even tacitly follows Singapore's most recent general election, which was held just a few months ago, would have understood what each question refers to. You arent even familar with such a recent and major event when there are more than ample sources from the internet on this topic and analysing it from any viewpoint, whether liberal, conservative, authoritarian or othewise. What does that say about your political inclinations and agenda?--Huaiwei 22:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Countries like Japan, India and Sweden also have parties that dorminate the parliaments over long periods of their history. Why aren't these countries ever described as single-party, but Singapore? Would you be able to deny the fact that the ruling party in Singapore has been doing as much as it can to avoid the emergence of an effective opposition? — Instantnood 23:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

This question is for you, the person attempting to add information to this article, to find out, which you didnt. Meanwhile, would you be able to declare that no ruling party in any democratic state on planet Earth does not invest maximum effort in denying the emergence of an effective opposition which may treaten their hold on power?--Huaiwei 13:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The significant difference here is whether they use democractic methods to do so or not. --Regebro 13:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Elaboration please. Of course some reference to real examples would be most helpful.--Huaiwei 13:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

This elaboration has been done many times in this discussion already, and even more elaboration is done in the links that I have provided, where there are ample examples of Singapores undemocratic methods to keep in power. Singapores government jail opponents, the sue all opponents and all critical media into bancrupcy, there are restrictions on the freedom of meeting, there are severe restrictions on the freedom of media as well as political censorship, and there are no free press. All newpapers are owned either by the government or one company that has close ties with the government. None of these things would be true in a democracy. --Regebro 14:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Now that is the kind of "discourse" we have all been waiting for. Lets now get down to business:

"Singapores government jail opponents, the sue all opponents and all critical media into bancrupcy" Please provide relevant evidence to show that ALL opponents and critical were sued by the government into bankcruptcy (jeez...that must be hell lots of work for the courts here. :D). Several politicians were indeed jailed, but could you show for what reason they ended up behind bars? For being opposition politicians?

"there are restrictions on the freedom of meeting" Huh? Freedom of meeting = democracy? And the freedom to meet is against the law in Singapore? I must be a very uncivil citizen then, considering the sheer number of times I have been involved in meetings all my life. :D

"there are severe restrictions on the freedom of media as well as political censorship, and there are no free press. All newpapers are owned either by the government or one company that has close ties with the government" Hmm....all newspapers are owned either by the government or one company that has close ties with the government? How about the foreign newspapers which are freely available in newstands? How about numerous other publications other than newspapers? Do they all face similar censorship? I arent gonna deny there is some form of media control, but to use the word "severe" seems grossly passe in contemporary Singapore. The Singaporean media is much more self-censored than state-censored. Could you name any Singaporean journalist who was ever persecuted in the past decade for passing the OB Marker? Does the Singaporean "state controlled" papers fail to report any article, letter, or commentary which is critical of the government or its policies? Do you have such evidence?

"None of these things would be true in a democracy." Oh is it? Would you swear that every democracy on Earth will not have elements of each of the three points mentioned above?--Huaiwei 16:09, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

(response to user:Huaiwei's comment at 13:16, November 26) " This question is for you, the person attempting to add information to this article, to find out, which you didnt. " - Please kindly clarify whether you are telling everyone who're reading this page that I was the person who added Singapore to this list. — Instantnood 21:18, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, yes. After so long in wikipedia, and you arent even aware that the onus to justify adding information to any wikipedian article dosent just lie in the original writer, but on every single person attempting to add information, including previously removed ones?--Huaiwei 21:50, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

What was removed from the list? And who was the person removed it from the list? Why was it removed? — Instantnood 21:53, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

How in the world would anyone be able to answer those questions if you cant even tell what was removed? lol!--Huaiwei 22:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Please go read the very beginning of this thread of discussion. — Instantnood 22:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

But why should I do that when you are the one asking the question? ;)--Huaiwei 15:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I am still expecting answers to the above. I notice you respond pretty fast when it comes to thumping your chest and showcasing your ego, yet repeatedly clams up when asked to go into factual details.--Huaiwei 13:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

You have gotten answers to any reasonable question you have asked. I repeat, the opposition cheekily ask the crowd if they would like to work till the grand old age of 82 is NOT a requirement or an indication of democracy. I will NOT let you drag me down in to your style of debate. --Regebro 14:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

And I repeat. If you consider the above questions irrelevant, then is it fair for me to conclude, that you arent aware of the context behind them, and which therefore reflects your lack of basic ground knowledge on local politics beyond a few "internationally-respected" publications?--Huaiwei 21:53, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I came in here via WP:RFC where this was listed, so I'm just going to make my comment and leave. I don't want to be embroiled in the argument. I think all parties here, especially Huaiwei, need to take a deep breath and relax. I do agree that, on the evidence in those external links that Regebro has provided, Singapore is "effectively" (to use the wording in that section) a single-party state, and therefore deserves to be listed in that section. To quote from one of them, "In practice, however, the ruling PAP dominates the government and the political process, and uses a variety of indirect methods to handicap opposition parties" and this thread seems to be repeated in the other articles. So, if the current section is to remain as is and with that scope, I believe Singapore should be included.

I agree with Regebro that his links are to reputable and well-known organisations. Of course, some of these are organisations with an agenda to promote freedoms, and one might suspect that the information is biased towards showing a more negative view towards certain governments; but what good would such bias do to them? Hence, my primary suggestion is actually the removal (or substantial alteration) of that section. Determining whether something has a property de facto necessarily involves a subjective judgement, and I've always thought that it is not for us to determine these things for our readers. For example, this report on Russia is quite damning, and justifies its inclusion in that list, yet it is currently not included.

However, I think we will not be doing the article justice if we do not mention that certain organisations have called certain states rather undemocratic despite their being democratic on paper and in their constitutions. So could we perhaps write, "Organisation X has said that country Y is de-facto a single-party state because of reason Z."? The guideline Misplaced Pages:Avoid weasel words comes into mind; it's not applicable here, but a similar rationale applies.

Overall, I think what we have here is a definitional issue: define what the sections include precisely and we will be one step closer to a solution. enochlau (talk) 17:19, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

What you suggest violates Misplaced Pages:No original research and NPOV. The description you provideed merely indicates that Singapore is a "dominant party state" and satisfies none of the criteria of a "Single-party state". Please understand the differences between the two concepts. --Vsion 17:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

That his "understanding" of the concepts differ from yours doens't make him wrong. His understanding accord with (and probably derives from) the definition in the articles, which you have not so far critizied. I think this may be a useful suggestion. Let's try that. --Regebro 19:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Clarification of concepts?

Today we have three articles about the political systems according to the number of parties. They are:

1. Multi-party system
2. Two-party system
3. Single-party system
4. Dominant-party system

However, some of these concepts are not quite clearly defined against each other. I would suggest that countries actually are divided into the following groups:

1. Countries where there are several parties who all work under similar legal and practical conditions, and where ruling power switches between different parties and/or coalitions.
2. Countries where there are several parties who all work under similar legal and practical conditions, but two parties dominate to the extent that other parties have no or very few seats in parliament.
3. Countries where there are several parties who all work under similar legal and practical conditions, but one party dominate to the extent that other parties never actual get ruling power.
4. Countries where there are several parties but where the ruling party uses undemocratoc methods to keep the other parties from power.
5. Countries where only one party exists because other parties are outlawed.

As we see, these are at least five divisions. We need to discuss how normal use of the above concepts apply on the five divisions. Which divisions go under which concept. It seems obvious to me that the distinction between countries where one party dominates because it keep power by democratic means (like South Africa) and countries where one party dominates by undemocratoc means are a relevant distiction. This distinction is not entirely clear today, as for example the article on Dominant-party systems can be interpreted as covering both cases, and make no effort to explain the difference.

Opinions? --Regebro 01:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

As per Misplaced Pages:No original research, there is no need to redefine what is "Single-party system" as it is already clearly described in the article. The characteristics include:

1. No other parties are permitted to run candidates for election
2. Constitutionally-defined single party states
3. Having legal or military measures make these effectively (de facto) single-party states (e.g. Myanmar)

None of these applies to Singapore. Regebro, you brought up Myanmar as an example in the above. Then surely you know the situation in Myanmar. Why is Myanmar considered a Single-party state? please explain. --Vsion 04:40, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

You are trying to make this into a discussion about Singapore. This is not about singapore. I think it would be best if you removed the above comment and instead discussed the issue. --Regebro 10:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

From your reply, i take it that you agree Singapore satisfies none of the criteria listed in the article.--Vsion 23:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

And the agenda behind the initiation of this discussion is clearly pinned on the fate of Singapore's appearance in this article. Afterall, no one could find your constructive constibutions to this article except to argue over the Singapore issue. Are you therefore in the position to tell others to shift their focus when the root of the issue is plain clear?--Huaiwei 13:14, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes I am. --Regebro 13:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

We shall see.--Huaiwei 13:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I think "Single-party state" is being defined too widely in the current article. Constitutional single-party states obviously qualify, and so do places like Myanmar and Eritrea where no non-ruling party political activity is allowed, but I don't think Egypt (post-2005) belongs on this list and neither does Singapore. Both are little tinpot dictatorships that quite blatantly rig the system, but there are genuine opposition members in Parliament in both countries, and hence they're merely undemocratic dominant-party systems. Jpatokal 04:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you think instead we should expand the dominant party system into covering both undemocratic and democratic states, or should dominant-pary system cover only undemocratic states? --Regebro 09:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Since you are in the mood to "clarify concepts", mind telling us just what is an "undemocratic" state?--Huaiwei 15:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)