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Revision as of 00:27, 30 November 2006

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WikiProject: Alternative education

Hello, we are currently seeking additional participation in a WikiProject that been launched on the subject of alternative education. I have noticed that you seem to have an interest and/or some experience in this area. I would like to invite you to join this effort. If you are interested, please visit the WikiProject page. Several of our participants are helping on a daily basis, some weekly, and a few only have a little time to contribute sporadically. Any level of participation is helpful and welcome. We hope you will consider joining our team. Thanks, Master Scott Hall | Talk 01:44, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Appreciation of your recent contributions

Based on recent events (however amorphous such events may be – a bunch of arranged bytes on someone else's screen ), I appreciate your tenacity and quest for reasonable accuracy in extremely difficult areas of analysis. Good regards to you. ... Kenosis 03:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Science

Hgilbert, I had my doubts whether the edits you made to the intro of science would hold. But they have. Nice work. ... Kenosis 04:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoscience Category

"The Cat pseudoscience is a member of its own group" – so should WP be restricted to only having categories that aren't members of their own group? (Sorry, couldn't resist.) --Wclark 18:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Invitation to Join Waldorf Project

Dear HGilbert,

I am writing to invite you to join a project to revamp the Waldorf page and bring a close to the unending edit wars. With the help of unbiased administrators and Wikipedians, I hope to create a balanced article about Waldorf education with a balanced section on critical views. In my own view of this, the article will contain no outside links except to scholarly articles. The project participants, however, with the help of comment and input from unbiased Wikipedians, will make the final call on that.

We could use your expertise and experience in turning this into a Wiki page rather than a war zone.

Thanks for your consideration,

Wonderactivist 15:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Update on Waldorf Project

Dear HGilbert, I am sending each project member a copy of the note I am sending to the adminsitrators about our project. I remain very optimistic that this project can make a big difference in the quality of the Waldorf page as experienced by the Wiki reader. I am pasting the letter below my signature and invite feedback on my Talk. Wonderactivist 04:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear Longhair and Cormaggio, Thank you immeasurably for your help with the Waldorf project so far. As you will note below, I am planning shortly to move the project pages to within alt ed - just want to clarify structure first. It is currently at User:Wonderactivist/Waldorf Project Team Page

With your admin experience, and the amount of back-n-forth this article has undergone - actually speeding up since the proposed project - I would like your opinion on strategies to manage the project if you should have time.

I see two major issues:

1 there are "sides" within the group instead of a single focus on creating a good article. While this is somewhat to be expected, I also expected a greater level of professionalism. Is there a known strategy to begin to turn this around?

2 Unbelievably, I think,we have actually reached almost a consensus on the Introduction. I would like to focus on this positive and if possible have it become a springboard for examining just one section at a time. 3 On the current project page, a format for the article has been proposed, while the person actually rewrote the whole article, I propose taking just the OUTLINE - the section names 0- and beginnning with agreeing upon the sections.

Other than the administrative questions, my project strategy will be to set up two pages within the alt ed project:

1 to lay out a structure - outline only - for the page 2 to finalize with formal agreement, the introduction. 3 ONLY begin work on the next section when we have agreed upon the above two, then moving just one section at a time.

My hope is that it will disarm the ongoing wars over fine points and pet projects.

What is your opinion?

And thank you from the bottom of my transplanted Texas heart! Wonderactivist 04:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposal at Waldorf Project

With advice from an admin, I have taken the next step in the Waldorf project and invite your opinions or alternative suggestions for a first formal proposal. In the face of the ongoing conflict it will be necessary to work especially hard toward NPOV and to establish groundrules before we can begin our real editing work. I invite you to be part of that process at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Waldorf_Project_Proposals Wonderactivist 14:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello Waldorf Project Team Members

I just wanted to let you know that two proposals have passed on the Waldorf project and two more - one based on Fergie's starting place - have been set out for discussion here. Feedback has been given that the project has been going slow. I apologize as I had hand surgery a week ago, but truly nothing should wait for one person. If we each check in once or twice a week, we should be able to get through the article in a month or two. I would appreciate your valuable insights on the proposals and timing. Wonderactivist 12:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Waldorf Edits In clicking around to user pages to send the note, I have seen that the edit wars are truly still raging - they just have moved from the Waldrof page to user pages. As a result, I do not advise speeding up this project - time will be well-spent hashing out the disagreements civilly, with the result being a better page for Misplaced Pages and its readers. The problem with this page, overall, has been each person's need to push their own agenda without taking time to consider other viewpoints. Please do not resume your edit wars on the page. Wonderactivist 12:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Waldorf_Project"

Mediation

This user page is currently inactive and is retained for historical reference. If you want to revive discussion regarding the subject, you might try contacting the user in question or seeking broader input via a forum such as the village pump.

Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/OpenNote is deprecated. Please see User:MediationBot/Opened message instead.

Hello HGilbert, I did go ahead and sign the mediation thing on the 11th and place the project on hold. Thanks for the note to besure I saw it in time. Please let me know if I should do anything else as I am not very familiar with the mediation process. Wonderactivist 13:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Request for Mediation

A Request for Mediation to which you are a party has been accepted. You can find more information on the mediation subpage, Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Rudolf Steiner. For the Mediation Committee, Essjay (Talk) This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to open new mediation cases. If you have questions about this bot, please contact the Mediation Committee directly.

Racism

I want to commend you for your brilliant solution to fixing the problem in the final sentence of the section, with "warm praise." Boogafish 01:13, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

'Advert' tag on waldorf education

Hi HGilbert! Please do not remove the advert tag from the Waldorf Education page until a consensus has been reached that this is OK. As you are aware, a project has been set up with the aim of making the article less brochure-like- I suggest you await the outcome.--Fergie 10:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I asked you to identify specific problems with the text; you did not do so. The project is apparently inactive, in part due to the refusal of two users to participate in the mediation process. Please identify specific sentences/sections, at least as examples of the "brochure-like" quality. Hgilbert 13:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree - please don't remove the tag. The WHOLE article is a brochure. The mediation process, like the Waldorf project, was set up unfairly - with extreme bias. Are you saying the Waldorf project has been officially terminated? If not, could you please let us know the status of the project? Pete K 15:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The article is largely objectively descriptive; nevertheless, it can be improved. Bias meaning that two single-issue editors who are active in a prominent anti-Waldorf organization are not able to dominate a process in which 9 or 10 other users drawn from a wide spectrum of experienced Misplaced Pages editors were agreeing to mediation? Hmmm...

I am trying to determine the state of mediation and project. Hgilbert 02:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

LMAO - "wide spectrum of experienced Misplaced Pages editors"? Um... I don't think so. You, HGilbert, are a Waldorf teacher. Wonderactivist runs a Waldorf homeschool. Vindenheim is a Waldorf parent. TheBee is a Waldorf activist/extremist. Professor marginalia is another Waldorf activist/extrimist - both TheBee and Professor marginalia represent AWE - an extremist group that makes false claims of "hate group" and use their own organization to substantiate them. Who else have you got on the project? A lot of Waldorf people hiding behind aliases. The brochure language has got to go - everybody agrees on this. I begged you to produce a reasonable mediation request, BTW, and you didn't care to. You derailed the process before it began. Pete K 04:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The list of editors that signed on is:

• Hgilbert (talk · contribs)
• Wonderactivist (talk · contribs)
• Goethean (talk · contribs)
• Thebee (talk · contribs)
• Fergie (talk · contribs)
• Professor marginalia (talk · contribs)
• Vindheim (talk · contribs)
• Trueblood (talk · contribs)
• Lumos3 (talk · contribs)

There are four experienced editors there that are unconnected with Waldorf; all signed on. So much for the reasonableness of the mediation request. In addition, at least two of those you listed edit widely outside Waldorf articles and are also experienced. You and DianaW, on the other hand, are single-issue editors with strong POVs and without much Misplaced Pages experience. You could have added issues to the mediation request; to remove all the ones to which 9 editors had already agreed is not constructive. Hgilbert 14:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Which four editors are you suggesting aren't connected to Waldorf (and I assume you mean Anthroposophy as well here)? BTW, I edit other articles as well. Re: the advert tag - I'm not the only editor on the list that has insisted it should stay (I think it was Fergie who replaced it last time). AGAIN, please stop removing it until there is agreement. We're a LONG ways from removing the brochure talk. It would be better if you didn't continulally reverse the edits that are getting away from the brochure language. Then it would be possible to actually remove the tag. Pete K 16:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you're back Harlan. I think you forgot to answer my question above. It asked "Which four editors are you suggesting aren't connected to Waldorf (and I assume you mean Anthroposophy as well here)?" Pete K 00:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

There are five that I believe have no such connection. I might be wrong about one of them, but I doubt more than one.

• Fergie (talk · contribs)
• Vindheim (talk · contribs)
• Trueblood (talk · contribs)
• Lumos3 (talk · contribs)
• Goethean (talk · contribs)

Hgilbert 01:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you are wrong. Pete K 01:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but you provide no evidence, and I am afraid I await this to be convinced. Hgilbert 01:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, one of these five, at least, has a child or children in Waldorf (Vindheim, I believe). Another, (Lumos3 I believe) has indicated that he has, at least, researched Waldorf education and visited Waldorf schools first-hand (more than one). Without speculating about personal details about persons who haven't mentioned their affiliations, at least these two people have indicated they are connected to Waldorf through their statements here. Pete K 01:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Here, this is from Lumos3's talk page - in a discussion with YOU.

Your original statement was that the editors were just "a lot of Waldorf people hiding behind aliases". The above statement by Lumos3 (and his edits) indicate that he is not a "Waldorf person", though he may have encountered schools (it's not clear how); similarly, Vindheim may have a child in a Waldorf school, but is clearly independent of and often critical of Waldorf (based upon his edits). The five stand as independent editors who were willing to enter mediation. Hgilbert 09:05, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I am far from a single-issue editor, and my wikipedia experience is significantly broader than yours.DianaW 02:20, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Up to Oct. 27, 2006, all of your edits were to very closely related articles (Waldorf/PLANS), definitely around a narrowly defined single issue. Since that time, i.e. the last 3 weeks, you have spread out a bit. I have a long history of contributing to a very wide spread of articles, however much reduced recently given the edit wars here. Hgilbert 23:55, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I'm looking to spread out more. There's an article on "White People" that is locked up right now. I can't wait to get Steiner's views into it when it is available for editing. Maybe, Harlan, we can diversify our editing together... Pete K 18:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't sound like spreading out; it sounds like a single-issue editor promulgating the issue from article to article. Hgilbert 23:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I actually write about many, many issues - in Misplaced Pages and outside it. Try it sometime, it'll refresh your outlook!Hgilbert 01:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I do too... I'm a published author... how about you? Pete K 01:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I am too. What have you published (I'm genuinely curious, Pete)? Hgilbert 01:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Google my name if you want to know what I've published. Pete K 04:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"Clarification"

That reminds me of the way some public figures "clarify" their comments when they want to rescind sub rosa something too truthfully said. Why privilege Mackay's anarchism over his pederasty, and why so diplomatically? Haiduc 01:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Because he was primarily known and active as an anarchist; I have never heard of the other side of his activity (is it really true?), and Steiner certainly emphasized his interest in MacKay's individualist-anarchist philosophy. It's like Einstein siring an illegitimate daughter and leaving her with the grandmother; not the main emphasis of his life for most people (other than the daughter, no doubt). Hgilbert 23:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Waldorf education

Hello,

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Waldorf education. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Waldorf education/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Waldorf education/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Thatcher131 01:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Rudolf Steiner

My view is that both sides are right, and that the basic points of both sides should stay in the article. Once there is a valid criticism documented, you don't get to try to disprove it. And you can't disprove it with any number of quotes, so please let the other side's position stand as well as your own. —Hanuman Das 01:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The section on Steiner's stance on assimilation can stand, and no one is trying to remove or disprove this. The opening line, however, is clearly inaccurate as it stands, and no documentation has been presented for its present formulation. On the contrary, extensive documentation exists for Steiner's general (and harsh) criticism of anti-Semitism. Hgilbert 01:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Harlan, this "extensive documentation" that Steiner criticized anti-Semitism is from Anthroposophists who *don't get* that anti-Semitism includes assimilation. That's really NO point at all. Pete K 13:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry? On the talk page I have provided extensive documentation that you have been clearly seen, as you have deleted it from the article itself. That is in the form of direct quotes of Steiner's criticism of anti-Semitism in the most general terms possible. You are falsifying these critiques and inserting your own POV for which you have provided no documentation, only your own assertion. Hgilbert 19:41, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Steiner's criticism of "anti-Semitism" doesn't include his OWN anti-Semitism. Are you suggesting he was opposed to assimilation? The evidence that he supported assimilation is absolutely there in the article and has been referenced by his own words. It is only YOUR contention that assimilation and that the wiping out of the culture of the Jews *isn't* anti-Semitism which is in question here. My POV is not in any of this. Your POV, that assimilation is not anti-Semitism is at the basis of your complaint. And that, friend, is only your own assertion. Pete K 19:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it's your assertion: I never said anything like this. Let's put the direct quotes in from Steiner and resolve the issue...you have always said that Steiner's own words are best in a disputed case like this. Hgilbert 00:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with this, but I have a problem with a citation that goes nowhere. If there is a page where these words appear, please cite it so that the context can be verified. Thanks! Pete K 00:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)