Revision as of 02:45, 1 December 2006 editDianaW (talk | contribs)793 edits →Attacked← Previous edit | Revision as of 03:22, 1 December 2006 edit undoLquilter (talk | contribs)Administrators42,364 edits →Attacked: the incident is non notable and the race of the perpetrators is even MORE non-notableNext edit → | ||
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:"you insinuated that I am a racist," If you feel that was too subtle and that I was "insinuating" something I am happy to come out clearer for you then. There is no possible reason to add this material here that is not racist. Your post is extraordinary, mr./ms. anonymous 70.23 etc. This is sickening. Sickening. You obviously make it your business to go around adding this kind of crap. I bet you've never read a word of Nadine Gordimer.] 02:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC) | :"you insinuated that I am a racist," If you feel that was too subtle and that I was "insinuating" something I am happy to come out clearer for you then. There is no possible reason to add this material here that is not racist. Your post is extraordinary, mr./ms. anonymous 70.23 etc. This is sickening. Sickening. You obviously make it your business to go around adding this kind of crap. I bet you've never read a word of Nadine Gordimer.] 02:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC) | ||
::The material should be, and has been, deleted again. I agree with User:DianaW. This material is non-notable information about Gordimer's life. ], it is incumbent on you to advance some rationale for this material. For instance, did it affect Gordimer's politics or her writing -- the reason she herself is notable? Was it a race-based incident, targeting Gordimer because of her views on race, or her race? I see nothing in the information you've cited to suggest that. Without any notability on its own, the incident is simply out of place, because one doesn't typically include this kind of material in an article. I don't recall ''ever'' having seen "X was mugged" or "Y was robbed at gunpoint" when those incidents had no effect on the ways in which X or Y are notable. | |||
:: Moreover, the race of the perpetrators in a criminal incident would ordinarily not be notable unless there was a specific racial basis for the incident, or some specific racial effect of the incident. You quote the "irony" quote but that does not itself give relevance. "Irony" is a POV comment by the newspaper, making an observation that is much like the one you're making here. Quoting a POV comment is still a POV. --] 03:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 03:22, 1 December 2006
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dead links
can someone get the links in the fiction section working and the pages to atualy be made. fwed66 17:33(GMT) 5 june 2006
Nadine Gordimer's Ancestry
The current wording is intended to imply that Gordimer's mother was not Jewish, which is untrue. It is furthermore untrue that she was "raised a Christian," as the article currently states. On page 33 of "No Cold Kitchen: A Biography of Nadine Gordimer," Ronald Suresh Roberts writes "Gordimer's mother was named Nan (her real name was Hannah, née Myers). Her father went by Isidore Gordimer... Isidore and Nan were both products of the large Jewish migration to South Africa in the last decades of the nineteenth century (he from the Eastern European Pale, she from London)." Much of the chapter entitled "Wellsprings: Ancestry" deals with the Jewish backgrounds of both sides of Nadine Gordimer's family. She and her sister did attend a Catholic parochial school, where "Nadine and Betty were the only Jews" (Roberts, page 47), but she is not a Christian. In an article on Gordimer in "Jewish Writers of the Twentieth Century," Marcia Leveson quotes Gordimer as saying "I have never denied that I'm Jewish and have no desire to deny it. For me, being Jewish is like being black: you simply are. To want to deny it is simply disgusting." Jinfo 06:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Attacked
"She was robbed on 26 October 2006 by three men in her home in Parktown, Johannesburg, and was assaulted after she refused to hand over her wedding ring. She has been adamant in stating however that this attack will not alter her previously expressed beliefs about the ills of apartheid." What the . . . Why would it alter her beliefs about apartheid? This doesn't belong in this article, any way, shape, or form. I'm taking the whole thing out. It's horrible to hear that she was attacked, but this is not encyclopedia information. Whatever is being implied in the back and forth, putting in the word "black" men and taking it back out and then, apparently, someone thought they could justify the inclusion of this information with relevance to her political views!! -It's preposterous and offensive.DianaW 04:16, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm the person who removed this material both on the 18th and again last night. I didn't mean to do it anonymously, I guess I forgot to log in. The person who added this material yesterday did so without discussion. It had already been disputed here. I felt that since I was the last person to comment on this issue and no one had disputed my take on this, my sense that it should not be included here should stand until or unless someone comes along who'd actually care to discuss it. Examining the other wikipedia contributions of the person who inserted this material yesterday gave me a very clear impression of a POV pusher, and the POV we're talking about is ugly. If someone wants to make a case for the inclusion of reports of this attack in this article - and has a suggestion for how such reports can be made to read neutrally without extremely ugly racial overtones, please feel free.DianaW 15:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear anonymous editor, I would like to hear your views on why this material needs to be included here. The way wikipedia works, you need to discuss controversial changes with other editors; not just repeatedly and without discussion insert things that have been previously removed. Please either discuss your changes or expect to see me remove them again. There needs to be a justification for including something that, as phrased, has very unsavory implications. Could you, for instance, state why you believe this incident, along with irrelevant comments about the race of certain individuals, needs to be included in an encyclopedia article on Nadine Gordimer?DianaW 23:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, Lquilter. You must have done that just moments ago. I'm relieved not to be the only one watching this page who sees it this way.DianaW 23:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- No, you're absolutely right -- this material is not particularly notable, and is written in an obvious POV manner to try to make a subtle racist claim. --LQ 01:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
In what follows, I am referring to the viciously worded entry DianaW 15:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC), not to the same individual’s entry at 23:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC), in which she uses much different language, in seeking to present herself as the soul of reason and tolerance. That ship has sailed.
“The person who added this material yesterday did so without discussion.” You mean, I did so without seeking your permission. Who died, and made you censor-in-chief?
“I felt that since I was the last person to comment on this issue and no one had disputed my take on this, my sense that it should not be included here should stand until or unless someone comes along who'd actually care to discuss it.”
Consider yourself disputed. You don’t discuss, you censor (and only eight minutes after I restored the passage you’d previously censored! Is that some kind of Wikirecord?), plus you throw political epithets around, couched in cowardly pc-wikispeak (“very clear impression of a POV pusher, and the POV we're talking about is ugly.”), in order to smear those who refuse to toe your political line, and to intimidate anyone else who might disagree with you. In a textbook ad hominem attack, you insinuated that I am a racist, and that all readers should treat anything I say with contempt.
Indeed, to borrow from Mary McCarthy, every word in your preceding entry passage violated the Wiki: Talk guidelines, including “and” and "the.” Were I to follow the same guidelines, I could not possibly respond to you. But then, I have previously complained about Misplaced Pages guidelines that only seem to exist to silence certain people, and to give dictatorial powers to others.
Nowhere did you show anything that was wrong with my restoration of the passage you had wrongfully censored, or with the quote that I had added, as per Misplaced Pages guidelines, and which came from the same source – a reporter in the London Sunday Times – as the section you had censored. Is the LST insufficiently pc for you?
(I am now writing for the sake of other Misplaced Pages readers, not the censor, who appears to be a lost cause).
The piece that I restored (I had not originally written it) and supplemented with a quote, was a factual report of a robbery last month of Ms. Gordimer by three black men. Since by the time you read this, the censor will no doubt have stricken it yet again from the article proper, the entire passage follows:
“She was robbed on 26 October 2006 by three black men in her home in Parktown, Johannesburg, and was assaulted after she refused to hand over her wedding ring. The (London) Sunday Times’ Durban correspondent, R.W. Johnson observed, ‘There is a grim irony to the attack, for Gordimer’s novels are all focused on the inhumanities of apartheid — with blacks always the victims, not, as in this case, the perpetrators.’ ”
The first sentence was the original passage, previous to the censor doing what she does; I added the rest. I followed Misplaced Pages guidelines; the censor had violated them, and has done so anew.
I added no “POV”; I added only facts, facts which the censor seeks to suppress. Does she seek to suppress the facts about Nadine Gordimer’s years-long criticism of white-dominated apartheid? Not at all. Why not, then? The censor has repeatedly suppressed the facts about a dramatic incident in Gordimer’s life, an incident that also is pregnant with irony (censors never take their irony supplement). That is because of her POV, which is racist.
There, I’ve said it. Unlike the censor, I don’t trade in cowardly insinuations. Or in censorship, for that matter.
As far as the censor is concerned, one may condemn white people all day long – that does not count as a “POV” – but let someone report anything about black people behaving badly, and that counts as a “POV” (i.e., that one is a racist). But the truth can never be racist. The censor seems to hate whites, and imposes her hatred on articles by promoting the casting of whites in the worst light possible, while suppressing, based on race alone, any factual reporting (forget about opinion) that casts blacks as anything but the victims of whites. If that isn’t racist, I don’t know what is.
The censor claimed she wanted a “discussion.” But she did not wait on any discussion, before censoring the earlier passage (which I restored and which she again censored). She believes that she may take initiatives, while others who disagree with her must wait for her permission ... which she will never grant!
That’s beyond even a sense of entitlement.
And how would one go about discussing the passage in question with her? Rather than show how the passage that I restored plus the quote I added was somehow guilty of “POV,” she made a blanket insinuation that I am a racist (“very clear impression of a POV pusher, and the POV we're talking about is ugly”) regarding my OTHER “wikipedia contributions.” Thus, not only did she not discuss the passage she censored, but she sought to inflame all readers against me, and pre-emptively intimidate any who might contradict her, by insinuating that they too, must be racists. And she sought thereby to distract everyone from the fact that I wasn’t even the person who had written the original passage. (Is she now going to look up that person’s entries, and insinuate that he is a racist, too?)
I'm talking about something very ugly.
My understanding is that the censor is violating Misplaced Pages guidelines, by suppressing facts in the name of her racial politics (i.e., POV). I am not suppressing any facts; indeed, I would never dream of butchering an article for any reason.
As for what the censor could possibly have read from me, I have recently complained once or twice about a racist double-standard that is being promoted at Misplaced Pages by people who beat others over the head with the demand that they maintain a “NPOV,” while the former promote a radical POV. Specifically, the demand for a “NPOV” is used to bully whites, while racist blacks violate said rule with impunity. Thus, there really is no “NPOV” rule; rather, the “rule” is just a racist propaganda weapon. And along comes the censor, to corroborate my complaint!
Since I am fairly confident that the censor is white, I need to amend what I previously said: racist whites (in this case, whites who hate other whites based on the color of the latter’s skin; the former often refer to themselves variously as “anti-racists” or “race traitors”; you can’t make this stuff up) also violate the NPOV “rule” with abandon, while beating other whites (or those whom they believe to be white) over the head with it.
As far as I can see, the only “discussion” the censor would recognize would be the sound of her allies agreeing with her, and the silence of the graveyard, in place of her opponents’ voices.
Should the censor’s allies also censor this entry, I will at least have contradicted them, without being guilty of self-censorship or dissimulation. 70.23.177.216 01:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- "you insinuated that I am a racist," If you feel that was too subtle and that I was "insinuating" something I am happy to come out clearer for you then. There is no possible reason to add this material here that is not racist. Your post is extraordinary, mr./ms. anonymous 70.23 etc. This is sickening. Sickening. You obviously make it your business to go around adding this kind of crap. I bet you've never read a word of Nadine Gordimer.DianaW 02:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- The material should be, and has been, deleted again. I agree with User:DianaW. This material is non-notable information about Gordimer's life. User:70.23.177.216, it is incumbent on you to advance some rationale for this material. For instance, did it affect Gordimer's politics or her writing -- the reason she herself is notable? Was it a race-based incident, targeting Gordimer because of her views on race, or her race? I see nothing in the information you've cited to suggest that. Without any notability on its own, the incident is simply out of place, because one doesn't typically include this kind of material in an article. I don't recall ever having seen "X was mugged" or "Y was robbed at gunpoint" when those incidents had no effect on the ways in which X or Y are notable.
- Moreover, the race of the perpetrators in a criminal incident would ordinarily not be notable unless there was a specific racial basis for the incident, or some specific racial effect of the incident. You quote the "irony" quote but that does not itself give relevance. "Irony" is a POV comment by the newspaper, making an observation that is much like the one you're making here. Quoting a POV comment is still a POV. --LQ 03:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)