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Redirects and where they go

FYI, there is a discussion at Talk:Feminist views on transgender topics#Redirects_and_where_they_go regarding redirects which point to either this article or that article. -sche (talk) 06:14, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Severe NPOV breach?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This clause: "It is used to describe a minority of feminists who espouse transphobic hatred" seems to be a severe NPOV breach. The cited pieces are opinion pieces, and there are just as many opinion pieces who hold the opposite point of view. For instance:

• https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2017/09/what-terf-how-internet-buzzword-became-mainstream-slur
• https://www.theguardian.com/society/commentisfree/2017/nov/19/bullies-everywhere-take-delight-in-coming-up-with-new-insults
• https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2019/05/welcome-age-ironic-bigotry-where-old-hatreds-are-cloaked-woke-new-language
• https://quillette.com/2018/10/18/trans-activists-campaign-against-terfs-has-become-an-attack-on-science/
• https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/08/29/philosophers-object-journals-publication-terf-reference-some-feminists-it-really
• https://www.afterellen.com/general-news/559907-queer-identified-women-jump-lesbian-outside-of-a-drag-show
• https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/graham-linehan-trans-activists-don-t-realise-the-damage-they-do-1.3765979
• https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12166957
• https://quillette.com/2019/06/14/its-time-for-progressives-to-protect-women-instead-of-pronouns/
• https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/terf/
• https://www.feministcurrent.com/2017/09/21/terf-isnt-slur-hate-speech/
• https://www.feministcurrent.com/2019/04/01/terf-a-handy-guide-for-irresponsible-journalists-shady-academics-and-irate-men/
• https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/11/06/nazi-terf-misunderstands-fascism-ignores-brutal-truth-women-holocaust/
• https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/08/29/many-lgbt-organizations-caving-trans-activists-losing-lesbians/

And that's just from 5 minutes of googling and checking Feminist Current's "terf" tag. I could add more. I think I'll create an account and edit the page now. Let me know if you have an objection. 2A02:908:C70:52C0:103A:3D00:2611:1415 (talk) 10:37, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

So this is my account then. Apparently I can't edit the page yet, but that's OK. I guess I should wait for some feedback first, given how heated the discussion here seems to be. If I understand correctly, I'll be able to edit the article starting from August 2, 16:40 UTC. In the meanwhile, I'm open to explanations as to why this article seems to be taking such a one-sided point of view. Or if someone else who can edit the article does so, given the citations above, that would be great of course. Rhino (talk) 12:49, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

How about you respecting consensus and reliable sources which are not transphobic editorials by well-known TERFs? Feminist Current and Quillette rely on ranting diatribes, deliberately offensive to attract social media reposts. This is not the Trump encyclopedia of bullshit. --Fæ (talk) 09:20, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

This might be that rare moment when I not only agree with Fae's principle, but also their phrasing of it. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:36, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi Fae, thank you for this warm welcome! (/s) I've looked at some of the previous discussions on this page, and pondered a bit on the links I've listed above, and the only conclusion I can reach is that your judgment is being clouded by your strong personal opinions on the matter. I see that you think it's appropriate to compare so-called TERFs to the KKK, which is a very extreme position, and I'll just have to disagree on the strongest terms. I've listed many more links than Quilette and Feminist Current, but even those two are not any less "reliable" than sources like LQBTQ Nation or The Daily Dot which are currently used as citations for your position. It's mostly opinion pieces from strongly ideological people on both sides. Please tell me if I'm missing something, but as per Misplaced Pages's verifiability and notability guidelines it looks like the article is currently very biased in favor of your position, not against it. Is there any possibility that you will loosen up a bit on your stance here? Thanks in advance for your kind response. I'm not here to fight. Rhino (talk) 19:32, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

The Daily Dot is considered generally reliable by WP:RSP. So are USA Today and the New York Times, which are also cited to defend that claim. Feminist Current and Quilette aren't.

Furthermore, many of the sources cited are not actually opinion pieces: the USA Today piece, the Outline piece, and the Daily Dot piece are all in the news domain of their respective websites. The fact that they all do voice an opinion is not evidence that they are unreliable; indeed, it's evidence that major news organizations say these sorts of things in their news voice instead of their opinion voice.

And then even past that, whether a source is reliable and whether it's unbiased are things Misplaced Pages considers separately. The fact that all these sources have an opinion does not mean that their journalism is bad, and several of them including at least one fairly pro-TERF piece say that TERFs are a minority. And then the "transphobic" is from several news organizations saying "transphobic" in news voice, up to and including USA Today.

This is frankly just a WP:UNDUE issue; you are perceiving that the page is "biased" because it conforms to the opinion of reliable sources, which is not some sort of weak "both sides" non-opinion like you might expect if you didn't know the sources or how Misplaced Pages works, but is in fact the shared opinion that TERFs are a transphobic minority of feminists. Sources can in fact share a strong opinion like this. It's not Misplaced Pages's job to "both sides" every fringe opinion. LokiTheLiar (talk) 21:42, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

This is sad part of wiki, but here I am anyway.

The Daily Dot is considered generally reliable by WP:RSP Citation needed (to expand, RSP talks specifically about internet culture)

Feminist Current and Quilette aren't. Citation needed

Furthermore, many of the sources cited are not actually opinion pieces - Opinion piece isnt defined by the subsection it occupies on some website, but by its content. Daily dot piece is opinion piece, then again Daily Dot does not run anything but opinion pieces.

Furthermore, many of the sources 6 sources given. Outline mentions minority zero times. NYT zero times. LBTQ Nation (which, sorry but assigning RS to that...you do you) zero times. USA Today zero times. Indy 100 zero times. Daily Dot one time, within opinion piece sourcing nothing but authors claim. Author themselves being Alex Dalbey is a writer and zinester currently living in Saint Paul, Minnesota via self-description on DD page. So not a scholar who does any scientific work with data or whathaveyou.

And listen, I get it. Agenda is thing difficult to overcome. But at the same time MOS:LEADNO is pretty easy to comprehend. I generally encourage this whole subsection to do so because this is quite laughtable. You are here a new user, your ignorance of some rules is expected as there is a lot of them and not easy to catch on asap, but seeing senior editors as Fæ to fall into these tropes is sad thing to behold. EllsworthSK (talk) 23:48, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, Alex Dalbey is a journalist whose piece in the Daily Dot is analysis, not opinion. But by all means. EllsworthSK, you do you. The rest of the world knows that TERF positions are generally minoritatian within feminism, and it is "gender critical" folks outside feminist movements that work the hardest to see this reality obscured. Newimpartial (talk) 00:43, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree that transphobes are, thankfully, probably a minority within feminism, but I'm also skeptical that we have solid sourcing for the claim. WanderingWanda (talk) 08:27, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Well, because there isn't one. But once you take the wikipedia as your ideological battlegroup, right Newimpartial?, then sources are suddenly not necessary. Also this will shock some to their core, but analysis are generally within Opinion sections of any proper reliable source (and here comes me again pointing to fact that RSP specifically refers to Daily Dot as RS within context of internet culture and if one would bother reading the RS attribution that it links to, you can see consensus on them not being one outside of that context), see CNN for instance. Also Alex Dalbey is a writer and zinester according to their own description on Daily Dot webpage and I detest the fact that I had to google what zinester means. If they don't refer to themselves as journalist, I really don't see why I should enforce such attribution on them. So, let's give it a ... week, let's say. That generally acceptable time frame to provide RS. If no RS appears until then, I am removing that wording. If you don't like it, you can bring it to ANI. This reeks of NPOV, LEADNO and other violations. Because I can't say that I am impressed by what rest of the world knows. If it knows it, it should put it in RS. EllsworthSK (talk) 09:25, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Since I prefer to write (and edit) what I know, I will talk about Canada. In Canada, the vast majority of official and unofficial feminist organizations are trans-inclusionary, with Quebec's most important feminist organization led by a trans woman last year. TERF organizing in Canada, on the other hand, is largely confined to a minority within British Columbia around 'Feminist Current'. That is what all the reliable sources for Canada would tell you, if you bothered to look. Actual RS are not hard to find, even if you have never heard of a zine (and queer politics, FWIW, derived largely from zines in the first instance - advertising your unfamiliarity with feminist and queer movements might not be the best credential to edit this page...) Newimpartial (talk) 11:57, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Canada is not the only country in the world, and is far from being the only English speaking country. Also, do you think Misplaced Pages is supposed to support queer politics? -Crossroads- (talk) 19:15, 30 July 2019 (UTC) updated -Crossroads- (talk) 19:28, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Crossroads1, my point is that in an article about a term used for a faction in a debate taking place within feminist and queer politics, editors need not support but should certainly be familiar with the terminology and sources for feminist and queer politics. If you don't, then you are largely disqualifying yourself from contributing here - TERF-related articles in particular are frequently brigaded on WP by editors who understand the "trans exclusionary" part but not the "radical feminist" part. Newimpartial (talk) 00:53, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Hello Newimpartial, do you have any citations for the statement that "the vast majority of official and unofficial feminist organizations are trans-inclusionary"? I'm not sure what an "official" feminist organization even is. Does Vancouver Rape Relief & Women's Shelter count as an "official" feminist organization for example? It's one of the oldest and biggest women's shelters in Canada and very adamant in staying female-only. As far as I know they work with Feminist Current too, which is actually a very major feminist publication to my knowledge. Rhino (talk) 22:21, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Rhino, we have in Canada large feminist organizations led by elected officials, small feminist networks, and everything in between. The shelter you name in Vancouver would be part of the "in between", and if you have the impression that they and 'Feminist Current' have a large constituency within Canadian feminism, then you simply don't know the domain very well. Very few major feminist publications or organizations in Canada support Meghan Murphy's FRINGE positions. Newimpartial (talk) 00:53, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Did I understand this correctly that you are Canadian? Is that why you bring up Canada a lot? -Crossroads- (talk) 01:53, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

@EllsworthSK: could you spell out exactly what wording you are now threatening to remove, presumably this threat includes deliberately ignoring the archives of past discussions, dispute resolution processes and so on, because you have some greater role here than the existing community consensus and do not subscribe to BRD? If I'm misreading your threat, do please correct me with some precise and accurate words.

Thanks! --Fæ (talk) 19:05, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I can't help but read this as an attempt to preemptively stop edits one does not like and to use past discussions and alleged consensus as a cudgel to lock down this article a certain way, even though consensus can change. -Crossroads- (talk) 19:18, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, some people think that BRD is censorship, because they disagree with what almost everyone else finds to be simple fact. TERFs are a self promoting small group of people that use the established banner of "feminist" to attack the rights of trans women, while simultaneously claiming that they fully respect trans women (while frequently calling them "male sex", TIM, or some other sly way of avoiding calling them women) so they literally cannot be transphobes. Logically, that's a nearly identical argument to Trump claiming today that "I am the least racist person there is anywhere in the world", and somehow that being a valid reason to avoid calling out his racist comments as "racist" in the article about Trump. That's not how an encyclopaedic that puts knowledge first should work.

BTW, Misplaced Pages using established cultural or historical queer publications as sources for information about Trans people is not "you think Misplaced Pages is supposed to support queer politics". Lay off the anti-queer politics spin, that's not what is being said here by anyone; see gaslighting. --Fæ (talk) 19:41, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I think your comparison of so-called "TERFs" with Trump supporters and racists is very extreme and shows that you have a very strong personal opinion on this matter. I'm a bit baffled that you don't see this? I mean no disrespect, but it's irritating. Many of these women are life long feminist activists and radical feminists, who have nothing to do with conservatives at all except that they occasionally have very superficial agreements. I'm sure queer people also have superficial agreements with conservatives, which means nothing. (Association fallacy.) Rhino (talk) 22:21, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Threatening? Haha, you are a handful. As far as your gatekeeping is concerned, may I suggest thinking of a wikibreak? AGF went out of window some time ago, I wont bother trying to make it work in any possible way but this is not your article. Stop thinking about it in a manner as if you owned it. As for the content in question, for now I am looking at the lead with word majority that even this gatekeeping failed to source. I am not impressed by it and I am not impressed by someone with such an edit tally, and thus should know better behaving in this manner, throwing here off-topic nonsenses about all the Trumps and whatnot of the world. Pathetic. You know better than anyone here what the rules are given your seniority and you are willingly choosing to ignore them. EllsworthSK (talk) 23:40, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Wanda: Our sources are this, this and this (all with a definite anti-TERF bias), and this with a pro-TERF bias. I think two news articles (one with a direct quote from TERFs saying that they are a minority) and two opinions from professors is enough to say we've sourced this reliably even though we don't have precise statistics.

(This is also basically my reply to the other discussion: these are the reliable sources, and if you don't like what they say, tough.) LokiTheLiar (talk) 20:59, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Hello Loki. I don't see how the article you called "pro-TERF" is not neutral. It seems to give equal voice and credence to the opposing sides in the debate, and I don't believe that either side is better represented among society so I don't think a "due weight" issue would apply either. I would be interested if you have any citation that shows that so-called "TERF" positions are less represented among the general public than the "anti-TERF" positions or whatever they're called. For instance, I'm pretty sure that most people think transwomen shouldn't compete in women's sports, most people think transwomen are biologically male, and so on. Please correct me (with citations :-) if I'm wrong. Rhino (talk) 22:21, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Rhinocera, most people think transwomen are biologically male That's a little tautological. "biologically male" is another term for "assigned male at birth" (based on based on medical factors). So yeah, most transwomen were assigned male at birth. That does not establish that "most people" think transwomen are not women. Vexations (talk) 22:54, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

The two terms are not really equivalent. One is present tense, one is past tense. According to this 2017 Pew survey, 54% of American adults think being a man or woman is determined by sex at birth, and 44% think it can be different. And for the record, I think it can differ. -Crossroads- (talk) 01:50, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Americans are not most people. American polls or surveys created for American political debate are not how Misplaced Pages separates fact from fiction. --Fæ (talk) 02:30, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

For the record, as this was not in the closing summary, the account that created this thread and appears throughout, Rhinocera, was found to be a sockpuppet of an indefinite blocked user, blocked for their disruption of transgender related topics. Were we literally to follow WP:EVADE, there would be no thread here to discuss. --Fæ (talk) 19:11, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Opposition to the acronym.

"so, you're a TERF?" Reply: "How dare you label me in that manner!" "What!? Are you or are you NOT a TRANS-exclusionary radical feminist!? Reply: "Well yes. Just don't use that blood acronym!"

Point: Isn't a lot of opposition to the term based on the fact it is - to many - an unpleasant sounding acronym? --Trans-Neptunian object (talk) 18:31, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Source? Andy Dingley (talk) 18:36, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

*Shrugs* --Trans-Neptunian object (talk) 18:58, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, Rachel McKinnon is a philosopher of language

Recently User:Genericusername57 edited the page to remove the description of Rachel McKinnon as a philosopher of language specifically. Normally I would just revert this myself, but because of the administrative sanctions and the fact I haven't made 500 edits yet I need to make my case on the talk page:

Rachel McKinnon is clearly a philosopher of language. The edit summary in question says that "her scholarly work has to do with probability and gambling, logic and assertions, and trans-related/social justice topics" but this is a clear misunderstanding. The majority of her scholarly work actually has to do with norms of assertion, a clearly philosophy of language topic. LokiTheLiar (talk) 07:03, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Also Rachel McKinnon, so she's passing any WP:Notability bar anyone would like to throw up. Andy Dingley (talk) 07:32, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

I've restored it, as if "norms of assertion" is the key theme through pretty much all of her published work, that puts her firmly into "philosphy of language" in my book. Andy Dingley (talk) 07:36, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

McKinnon takes an epistemic angle on the norms of assertion, not a linguistics one. See for instance her self description:

My primary research focuses on the relationship between knowledge and action. Specifically, much of my research currently focuses on the norms of assertion. I aim to explicate the epistemic dimensions of what we assert to each other, and the relevant norms potentially governing the practice.

and her publications. Cheers, gnu57 17:27, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

The distinction is IMO meaningless, because philosophy of language is very closely related to epistomology, and because "norms of assertion" is an inherently philosophy of language topic. It might seem to someone unfamiliar with linguistics that a paper about philosophy of language is actually about epistimology or logic, but in fact both of those are important subtopics within the philosophy of language. Heck, even the wholly-linguistic field of semantics deals greatly with logic and truth relations.

Plus if you actually read her papers, many of them are quite clearly about language. E.g. this is one of her most cited papers. Right on the first page it contains the line "I propose the following norm as the central constitutive norm for the linguistic practice of assertion:", and it's largely about assertion as a speech act.

Furthermore, even the Google Scholar page you linked classifies her under "Philosophy of Language".LokiTheLiar (talk) 00:52, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm convinced and have no objection to restoring "philosopher of language" phrasing. Anyone up for it may want to clarify the matter at Rachel McKinnon. — Ƶ§œš¹ 05:31, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Viv Smythe

In diff, the description of Viv Smythe as a cisgender radical feminist who coined the word for other radical feminists was removed. (The person's username was also removed.) I undid the first part of the change, noting "that it was another cisgender radical feminist who coined a word for other cisgender radical feminists is relevance. I am fine with dropping the username though - not sure it adds anything." Another editor reverted with the unintelligible edit summary "weaselling" (neither version involves WP:Weasel words, AFAICT). I would therefore like to ask whether the removal of "rans-inclusive cisgender radical feminist " has consensus. -sche (talk) 18:19, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

I think the reason for the term's invention is relevant for inclusion, and the sources talk about that so we should too. --Equivamp - talk 23:49, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

I think it's relevant both that she's cisgender and that she's a radical feminist. I wouldn't mind rewording if the objection is that the structure of the sentence is awkward, but I think we should definitely include that information. LokiTheLiar (talk) 06:20, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

(There's never going to be a way of making wording on articles like these non-awkward in places...) I also support the inclusion with reference to who the progenitor is. All seems relevant here in context --Trans-Neptunian object (talk) 22:16, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Transphobic

I made this edit because it is inappropriate for Misplaced Pages in its own voice to say that certain people are transphobic. Per WP:LABEL: Words to watch:...transphobic,...Value-laden labels...may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. And per WP:WIKIVOICE (part of WP:NPOV): Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Misplaced Pages's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc. For example, an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action", but it may state that "genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil."

WP:WEASEL cannot be used to maintain the current wording because it (1) cannot be used to overrule the NPOV policy, and (2) WP:WEASEL specifically states, The examples above are not automatically weasel words. They may also be used in the lead section of an article or in a topic sentence of a paragraph, and the article body or the rest of the paragraph can supply attribution. Likewise, views that are properly attributed to a reliable source may use similar expressions, if they accurately represent the opinions of the source.

The previous discussion here is not a justification either. That discussion was largely an argument about sourcing and had major involvement by an editor who is now topic banned for their bullying and driving away other editors. On top of that, the admin's closing statement said, Note that the complained-of text, "transphobic hatred" was added and removed on the same day over a month ago and has not been there since. That may have been true of the lead, but "transphobic hatred" remained in the body, and nonetheless, saying "transphobic" without "hatred" in wikivoice is a problem, as I explained.

Anyone in favor of the old wording will need to explain how it meets WP:LABEL and WP:WIKIVOICE. Please note that my proposed wording could possibly be changed even further, and that I am making no claims that any other part of the article is already okay. -Crossroads- (talk) 01:54, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I think you've adequately addressed the concerns that I and others have expressed here and at this ongoing RfC. — Ƶ§œš¹ 02:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

WP:LABEL makes an exception for when a value judgment is widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, which this is. (It suggests in-text attribution for this case, which I would not object to as long as we attribute it while naming the specific sources, which would also skip WP:WIKIVOICE.) The WP:WEASEL problem here is that there's a big difference in credibility between "some people" and "USA Today". Loki (talk) 12:45, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

What's the wording of the in-text attribution you'd like to see? — Ƶ§œš¹ 15:15, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, the current wording would be fine with a "most" in front of it: considered transphobic by most other feminists. The possible problem is that might be WP:SYNTH : we definitely have sufficient sources that most feminists disagree but I'm not sure if any of them explicitly say a majority of feminists say they're transphobic. If we can't source that, I would attribute specific sources: described as transphobic by USA Today, the Daily Dot, (...). Loki (talk) 16:33, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

The full quote from WP:LABEL is, unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. No exceptions given - use in-text attribution. Arguably, "other feminists" is more credible than "USA Today". However, USA Today did not actually say it in their own voice, but said it as part of a "feminist glossary", indicating that these are feminists' ideas, so this leads us back to "other feminists" anyway.

And a few more words on WP:NPOV, which states: Neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the editor's point of view. I strongly suspect that this cherry-picking is exactly what has happened in this article, at feminist views on transgender topics, and probably others. Sourcing relies heavily on opinion pieces and partisan media of a single side, even going so far as to use Socialist Worker, Current Affairs, and similar things as sources. Per above, this is not necessarily not allowed, but it is likely one-sided as presented. See also WP:BIASED: reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject.

Lastly, kudos to anyone who checks to see if sources are actually saying what they are claimed to. Already we have had several statements that were not actually supported and had to be removed. -Crossroads- (talk) 16:11, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I've made an additional edit so the sentence now reads that TERFs are "widely considered transphobic by other feminists" (which I think our current sources support pretty handily). I don't have a problem with in-text attribution (in fact if you want to attribute more specifically, go ahead); my main objection to just saying "other feminists" is that it could be read as just that there exist some other feminists somewhere that think they're transphobic, instead of the probable intended meaning that feminists other than TERFs generally agree that TERFs are transphobic.

As for the sourcing issues: there are several TERF-leaning sources on this page, for one. For two, it's frankly going to be very difficult finding neutral sources about a political ideology, particularly a very controversial one. I'm particularly familiar with this situation because I found several of the sources on this page and on feminist views on transgender topics. There are very few mentions of TERFs in truly neutral sources except for the handful of academic sources about whether TERF is a slur, and news articles about specific events (which are generally not very useful sources for an article about the term itself, though sometimes they do contain some useful bits like the Indy100 piece). The closest ones after that are when a source talks about TERFs as a phenomenon in an explainer article like the one in the Outline, Michelle Goldberg's piece in the New Yorker, or the Daily Dot article: these explainers are usually noticeably slanted because even the act of describing them as "TERFs" versus "gender critical" necessarily takes a side. Loki (talk) 04:51, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

I did revert you and I explained why in the edit summary. I think "other feminists" expresses what we have in the sources, and it seems to imply other feminists as a group anyway.

A case could even be made to remove "transphobic" entirely. To quote WP:LABEL again, Value-laden labels...may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. But remember that WP:NPOV states: Neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the editor's point of view. WP:BIASED states: reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. While progressive/activist media and opinion pieces do call them "transphobic", other media, and many or most serious academic sources, do not. Given the lack of agreement among RS as a whole, the label could be removed.

Interesting that you state that There are very few mentions of TERFs in truly neutral sources except for the handful of academic sources about whether TERF is a slur, and news articles about specific events and these explainers are usually noticeably slanted because even the act of describing them as "TERFs" versus "gender critical" necessarily takes a side. This seems to agree with what I have suspected; that this article by its very nature has POV issues. Perhaps it is a WP:POVFORK of feminist views on transgender topics and should be merged back there. -Crossroads- (talk) 14:35, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

It might be a good idea to hash out the wording here before editing so as to avoid edit warring.

I think we can more confidently justify using the phrasing "widely considered" if we can find a source that actually makes this claim about general usage, otherwise we are guilty of WP:SYNTH. Until then, "other feminists" or "many other feminists" will do. — Ƶ§œš¹ 15:23, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

I think we should say the strongest thing the sources support, and that strongest thing is quite strong. Annoyingly, I haven't so far been able to find a source for "a majority of feminists consider TERFs transphobic". What I have been able to find are sources that a majority of feminists are trans-inclusive, and I have also been able to find many specific instances of feminists (including the entire editorial staff of many feminist magazines) or other writers calling TERFs transphobic. I would really like to find a source that connects the two things, but you're probably right that without such a source directly saying it, it's SYNTH.

Supposing we can't find such a source, I would prefer listing specific sources over just attributing it to "other feminists" or "many other feminists". E.g. ...have been described as transphobic by USA Today, the Daily Dot, Indy100, and a joint statement by several major lesbian publications, as well as many other feminists. (And to shortcut an obvious objection: yes, all these publications said TERFs are transphobic in an article, not an editorial. That they voiced an opinion in an article does not make that opinion less reliable; in fact, it's why I think it's reasonable to attribute these statements to the publication as a whole and not the specific writer.) Loki (talk) 04:12, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

I can get behind your example wording in the body, though listing that many might be a bit much for the lede. — Ƶ§œš¹ 15:21, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree. If we want to keep it really short we could just say several sources in the lead, but I think I'd prefer something more along the lines of some news organizations and many feminists. Thoughts? Loki (talk) 20:53, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. — Ƶ§œš¹ 02:17, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

No, we don't have the sourcing for this. "Other feminists" is plenty specific, avoids SYNTH, and avoids trying to amass a collection of sources that looks ax-grindey. We can't specify an amount because, as you admitted before, Annoyingly, I haven't so far been able to find a source for "a majority of feminists consider TERFs transphobic". I'm not seeing any lesbian publications. USA Today is just repeating the viewpoint of feminists as part of a feminist glossary, not giving their own view. Indy100 said the term is a synonym for transphobia, which is a comment on usage, not an endorsement of that usage. Daily Dot said that TERF opponents say they are transphobic, thus attributing that viewpoint. Remember that WP:LABEL says that Value-laden labels...may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. And that WP:BIASED says: reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. Many RS do not equate TERFs with transphobia and even consider the term a slur, such as the New Statesman, The Economist, various philosophers, etc. "Transphobic" is not widely used by reliable sources, so we could remove the term entirely per WP:LABEL. Saying "other feminists consider" is the compromise. -Crossroads- (talk) 03:19, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I think we have a true impasse here, and not enough people around for a clear consensus. When I get to a real computer, I'll start an RfC to hopefully get a more definitive answer. (If I don't by tomorrow please someone ping me.) Loki (talk) 22:43, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

RfC: How should we attribute "transphobic"?

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Until about a week ago, this page described TERFs as feminists who espouse transphobic sentiments. This was recently changed to feminists who espouse sentiments considered transphobic by User:Crossroads1, and through some talk page discussion has since become feminists who espouse sentiments that other feminists consider transphobic, but we're now at an impasse.

There has been dispute on this talk page about how exactly to phrase this, with debate centering around the following options:

• Option 1: Leave as is: feminists who espouse sentiments that other feminists consider transphobic

  Option 1.1: Proposed by Darryl Kerrigan: feminists who espouse sentiments that others consider transphobic

• Option 2: List specific sources: feminists who have been described as transphobic by USA Today, the Daily Dot, Indy100, and a joint statement by several major lesbian publications, as well as many other feminists
• Option 3: Remove mention of transphobia entirely.

  Option 3.1: Proposed by Rosguill: remove mention of transphobia from the first paragraph but add it to the second which already describes criticism from feminists and academics …have rejected this view and consider it to be transphobic

• Option 4: Revert to previous wording with no in-text attribution: feminists who espouse transphobic sentiments
• Option 5: Proposed by User:Pyxis Solitary: feminists who espouse sentiments considered transphobic by transgender advocates

Please list all options you are okay with and which one you most prefer. Loki (talk) 04:06, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

The sources in either case are this Outline piece, this Daily Dot article, this USAToday glossary, this NYT opinion piece, this LGBTQNation article referring to a joint statement by several lesbian publications, and this Indy100 article. Loki (talk) 04:06, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Survey

• Option 2 as per argument above that we should say the strongest thing we can, though I continue to think option 4 or something like it is permissible based on the strength of the sourcing and the fact that WP:WIKIVOICE and WP:LABEL merely say to avoid the term in question. I'm also going to specifically ping the people from the previous talk page discussion, namely User:Crossroads1 and User:Aeusoes1 Loki (talk) 03:55, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

• Just want to note: I think Options 1 and 1.1 are not great because they're weaker than the sources support. And options 3 and 5 are even worse and I would strongly oppose either of them. Loki (talk) 23:46, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

• Since it's getting some support below, I want to make my reasoning for opposing option 5 in particular more clear. Putting the opposition in the mouths of "transgender advocates" is, for one, not accurate unless you count USA Today, the Independent, the Daily Dot and now Vox as "transgender advocates", and for two it paints this as a dispute between two equal sides when it's in fact many major news sources saying "transphobic". Loki (talk) 02:01, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

If it makes the TERF article easier for you to live with, you can modify Option 5 as: "...transgender advocates and some feminists". The generalized "other feminists" statement of Options 1 and 2 can be taken as implying that there are two types of feminists: 1/2 that are TERFs, and 1/2 that are Others. And again, anyone who opposes "TERFs" is not automatically a feminist. Pyxis Solitary yak 10:36, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

We want to ground our wording in what we can source. Do we have sources that are non-feminist opponents to TERFs that call them transphobic? — Ƶ§œš¹ 16:36, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

The limitation is: only opinions and writings published in "reliable sources" make it through the grind. Pyxis Solitary yak 02:24, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

• Option 1 is the best, as it shows how the term is used to mean "transphobic" and is therefore problematic to put on BLPs. Option 3 is acceptable. Option 2 is inaccurate. USA Today was stating the viewpoint of feminists as part of a feminist glossary, not giving their own view. Indy100 said the term is a synonym for transphobia, which is a comment on usage, not an endorsement of that usage. Daily Dot said that TERF opponents say TERFs are transphobic, thus attributing that viewpoint, not saying it in their own voice. WP:LABEL says that Value-laden labels...may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. And WP:BIASED says: reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. Many RS do not equate TERFs with transphobia and some even consider the term a slur; these RS include The Economist, seven women philosophers, the New Statesman, Inside Higher Ed, and Slate. These are just the strongest ones that are already in the article, and more do exist. "Transphobic" is not widely used by reliable sources, so we could remove the term entirely per WP:LABEL. We can't say "many other feminists" because, as Loki said before, Annoyingly, I haven't so far been able to find a source for "a majority of feminists consider TERFs transphobic". Trying to list source after source looks like trying to bolster a particular POV. Option 4 is unacceptable per policy. Per WP:WIKIVOICE (part of WP:NPOV): Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Misplaced Pages's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc. For example, an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action", but it may state that "genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil." Also note WP:LABEL again: Words to watch:...transphobic,...Value-laden labels...may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. -Crossroads- (talk) 16:47, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Option 1.1 is a no-go. It's too vague and suffers from WP:WEASEL. Plus, it implies that all others consider the people labeled TERF to be transphobic, which is definitely wrong. -Crossroads- (talk) 21:42, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

• Option 1, maybe without the second "feminists" - The sentence seems fine to me. But perhaps it could be improved if written something like this:

Coined in 2008, the term is generally applied to a minority of radical feminists who espouse sentiments that others feminists consider transphobic, such as including opposition to transgender rights, the exclusion of trans women in women's spaces, and the rejection of the assertion that trans women are women.

It is a term used by different people, some likely even incorrectly. Perhaps adding the word "generally" is appropriate (to indicate that others might use it differently). Also I think the more general "others" is preferable to "other feminists" as I expect some folks who don't self identify as feminists have also use the term. Also "including" suggest a non-exhastive list. I don't think those changes are vital, but expect they would improve the sentence. Cheers--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 18:16, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

• Option 4 preferred, with the references to support it in the body. I don't see any genuine controversy here. I see "Trans exclusionary" and "transphobic" as synonyms as a simple matter of language and the references are quite good enough to support this option even for anybody who doesn't buy that.
  Option 1 acceptable with the references to support it in the body. This it is a bit clunky and I don't see it adding anything over option 4.
  Option 2 not preferred. It is too detailed for the lede. The list of specific organisations is good content but it should be in the body.
  Option 3 completely unacceptable. This would be censorship of well referenced information for absolutely no legitimate reason. This is fundamental to providing a basic description of the subject. It cannot be omitted from the lede. I don't even see this as an option and I would have preferred if it had not been included in the list at all as it can only distract from discussion of the sensible options.
  --DanielRigal (talk) 20:02, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Option 5 completely unacceptable because it is tautological or circular. It seeks to invoke an undefined group of "transgender advocates" and ascribe the description to them alone. But what is a "transgender advocate" here? It is just anybody who calls TERFs transphobic, isn't it? It is like calling anybody who calls out racism a "member" of "Antifa". It has the effect of undermining the neutrality of the RS sources by labelling them partisan "advocates". This is weaselly and it looks a lot like an attempt to introduce the "TRA" conspiracy theory without evidence. For this option to be credible we would need RS sources explicitly describing at least the majority of the main sources describing TERFs as transphobic as being "transgender advocates". Such sources do not exist. --DanielRigal (talk) 01:05, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

• the list of specific organizations is good content but it should be in the body: does that mean you think that we should go with options 4/1 in the lede but option 2 in the body, DanielRigal? Loki (talk) 01:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

More or less. I think the body has the scope to list some of the notable organisations and publications that have made statements describing it as transphobic or otherwise condemning the TERF position, as well listing as any supporting it, taking care to make sure that any "organisations" we choose to mention are real and notable and not just "astroturfing" operations. --DanielRigal (talk) 01:05, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

• Option 1 seems somewhat better supported by policy than Option 4, but both are accurate. Option 2 is not accurate, so it shouldn't be used, and Option 3 would just look like a really awkward attempt to avoid the elephant in the room. Edited to add: Option 1.1 is better than Option 4, but worse than Option 1 because it is less specific, and the importance that the term was invented and primarily used by other feminists (as the article goes on to show, I think) is of chief relevance. Option 3.1 is probably the best of the options so far. Option 5 is simply editing out mention that the criticism is mostly from/within feminism, so it's no good, but I'd find it acceptable if it were something along the lines of trangender activists and other feminists or other feminists and trans people. --Equivamp - talk 20:39, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
• Option 1 or 1.1 best complies with Misplaced Pages rules on stating controversial opinions as facts in the editor's voice. Option 4 gets into issues of tautology where opposition to certain points of view is summarily defined as hatred or prejudice. If there were better quality sourcing to scholarly works 4 might be an option but what I see is a lot of lightweight fluff. —DIYeditor (talk) 07:32, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

• Option 1 = No.  "feminists who espouse sentiments that other feminists consider transphobic". ??? Where is the evidence that those who consider the term transphobic are also feminists?
  Option 1.1 = No.  "feminists who espouse sentiments that others consider transphobic". Who are these "others"?
  Option 2 = No.  We don't treat readers as if they were dunces that can't figure out what citations are for. Just support the statement with RS.
  Option 3 = No.  Because statements that criticize transgender advocacy are considered transphobic by transgender activists.
  Option 4 = No.  "TERF" is a controversial term. Attributions and RS are vital. Additionally, an explanation of what Misplaced Pages means by "transphobic sentiments" is necessary -- which would require more than media and opinion pieces.

Proposed option:  "feminists who espouse sentiments considered transphobic by transgender advocates ".  Pyxis Solitary yak 12:49, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Realistically, though, I suggest saying which of the 4 or 5 options you dislike the least. -Crossroads- (talk) 22:17, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Option 5 = Yes. (option added 5 September 2019 @ 23:44). Because it's not just "feminists" -- it's feminists and transgender advocates (which are not automatically feminists); thereby the definition should be "considered transphobic by transgender advocates" (which is what these "other feminists" are by virtue of same). (updated) Pyxis Solitary yak 01:28, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

The one I "dislike the least" is Option 1.
But all the options are skewed to cement a narrative that has been pre-determined. Self-identified feminists that criticize transgender advocacy are labeled TERFs, but those who disagree with them are not necessarily feminists. Transgender mysogynists are not feminists. The Degenderettes are not feminists. Pyxis Solitary yak 00:27, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

You're welcome to hold whatever opinion you want about who is and isn't a feminist, but this simply isn't supported by the sources. All of the sources above state that at least some other feminists call TERFs transphobic, and there are several other sources in the article which state the majority of feminists are not TERFs. (And I feel the need to point out, several of these sources are apparently pretty reluctant to call TERFs feminists. Several refer to them as "feminists" in scare quotes, or call them "ostensible" feminists. Not only is your position not supported by the sources, its reverse has significantly more support than yours does.) Loki (talk) 01:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

"this page described TERFs as 'feminists who espouse transphobic sentiments'"
"changed to 'feminists who espouse sentiments considered transphobic'"
"since become "feminists who espouse sentiments that other feminists consider transphobic'".

"Leave as is: 'feminists who espouse sentiments that other feminists consider transphobic'"
"Proposed ...: 'feminists who espouse sentiments that others consider transphobic'"
"List specific sources: 'feminists who have been described as transphobic by....'"

You may have created this survey, but you need to figure out what it's about. Pyxis Solitary yak 02:08, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Everyone else seems to be pretty clear on that? To be clear, I am not proposing that this article should say that TERFs aren't feminists, because there are enough sources that say they are plus the acronym literally contains the word "feminist". I'm just saying that position has some support in the sources whereas your position, that their opponents aren't feminists, has zero. Loki (talk) 16:41, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

If you're going to respond to a comment made by me you need to stop mischaracterizing what I actually stated, which is:
"Where is the evidence that those who consider the term transphobic are also feminists?"  and  "but those who disagree with them are not necessarily feminists".
English is my third language but in any language those statements do not equate as none of their opponents are feminists.
Option 1 is:  "feminists who espouse sentiments that other feminists consider transphobic". Option 1 assumes that all who oppose TERFs are feminists.
I suggest that you go find another editor to zero in on. Pyxis Solitary yak 23:06, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

It's not saying that (or at least, doesn't read that way to me). It appears to be specifying that the views are conbsidered feminist by other feminists because it's a term used primarily by feminists, was created by feminists, and characterizes a rift primarily in feminism - the feminist critics of the views are what's relevant to the term. --Equivamp - talk 23:35, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

or at least, doesn't read that way to me -- but that is how I read it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who does (nor do I expect readers and editors who have witnessed the toxic wars involving trans-related articles, and who refrain from getting involved in them, to step into this discussion). Pyxis Solitary yak 01:10, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Do you have reason to believe that the group of readers and editors you've vaguely alluded to will all have the same (mis)reading of the sentence? If so, why? If not, I don't know what that has to do with what I said or why you said it to me. Also, if your main beef is that other feminists to you means all other feminists, and not that I'm incorrect in saying the term is used primarily by feminists, was created by feminists, and characterizes a rift primarily in feminism, then why is your proposed alternative to exclude mention of other feminists entirely? --Equivamp - talk 23:33, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

You can put away the Grand Inquisitor hat because I'm not going to play along with you. By the way, the term was not "created by feminists" -- it was shorthand created by one self-identified feminist Australian writer (who the F is Viv Smythe?) who didn't want to spell out what it meant over and over again in her blogposts, and the term caught on. Pyxis Solitary yak 01:11, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

The hostility is bizzarre and wholly unecessary. Please stop.

Created by one feminist or a dozen, it doesn't change the fact that "TERF" characterizes a dispute within feminism, and removing reference to it from the lead would be utterly detrimental to the page. --Equivamp - talk 02:16, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

• Option 1.1, since the sources aren't just feminists but newspapers, etc. Cite the sources, but don't stack up a big list of them in the main text. Best done as a single footnote, itself laying out the sources one by one. This is a good article for the two-section referencing style, with footnotes to short cites that then refer to full bibliographic citations in the section below that.  — AReaderOutThataway /_c 17:09, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

  PS: I agree that "some" would be better than "others".  — AReaderOutThataway /_c 23:45, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

• Option 1.1, although I'd prefer the wording that "some consider" rather than "others consider." The term "transphobic" is so loaded that it's hard to employ that against people without running afoul of WP:NPOV or WP:BLP. May His Shadow Fall Upon You 18:11, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

  Doesn't the reasoning "so loaded that it's hard to employ against people running afoul of NPOV", also apply to trms like anti-semitic, racist homophobic?Oldperson (talk) 18:37, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

  Potentially, but that's not at issue in this article. May His Shadow Fall Upon You 18:47, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

  Definitely. That's why WP:LABEL tells us to avoid using those terms and, when we must, the manner in which we can use them while still maintaining NPOV. — Ƶ§œš¹ 19:29, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

  But the question of "some" vs "many"/"others" is a different issue. The term "TERF" itself is already considered pejorative by the people its applied to, so why is it a problem to say that the people who use the term believe that it indicates transphobia? If you look at the entry for homophobia it doesn't say "some people consider homophobes to be prejudiced against gay people". Nblund 19:40, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

  People can't have it both ways though. If TERF is derogatory like transphobe or homophobe, than it's not a neutral descriptor and can't e.g. be used as a category for BLPs. -Crossroads- (talk) 22:15, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

  I don't think that's necessarily the case. We have a categories for white supremacists, criminals, and communists, after all. Nblund 17:06, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

  Nblund: These terms are quite different: 1) White supremacism is a well-established term in academia, with no controversy when applied to groups such as the Ku Klux Klan, 2) criminal is a legal category and 3) communism is the name of an ideology and movement and it was created and still used by communists themselves, we categorize members of communist parties and self-declared communists as such with no controversy. In some countries and historic periods the term "communist" have been used as a slur even to non-communists and Misplaced Pages will not categorize someone as a communist in that case. --MarioGom (talk) 08:47, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

  Continues here. MarioGom (talk) 14:23, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

• No strong objections to Option 4, Option 3, or Option 2. I object to the other options because they are too equivocal: they imply that a "trans-exclusionary" person who is in "opposition to transgender rights" might-or-might-not-be transphobic. Which is a bit like saying saying that an egg salad might-or-might-not contain eggs.

I'll throw in a new proposal as well: the term is applied to a minority of radical feminists who espouse sentiments such as opposition to transgender rights . USA Today defines the term as "referring to feminists who are transphobic."

(Incidentally, I disagree with the notion that the USA Today piece is not in the paper's own voice. That's just some clever tap-dancing to try and discredit a reliable source. The piece is listed in the News section, not Opinion, and it is completely unequivocal. It doesn't say "here are what some feminists believe" or anything like that.) WanderingWanda (talk) 02:57, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

• Option 3, as the rest of the lead makes it perfectly clear where TERFs stand on transgender issues. However, I would also propose a Option 3.1: remove mention of transphobia from the first paragraph but add it to the second which already describes criticism from feminists and academics …have rejected this view and describe it as transphobic. Option 4 is acceptable due to the strength of sourcing. 1 and 2 are also acceptable, but less preferred because 1 is clunkily worded and 2 is a bit too much of a laundry list. 1.1 replaces 1’s style problem with weasel wording and is not a preferable solution. 5 is misleading as a description of the chorus of sources that have described TERFs as transphobic. _signed, Rosguill 10:15, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
• Option 5 preferred, while Option 1.1 and Option 4 acceptable, but not ideal. Reason being first and foremost that regarding trans-exclusionary individuals often control the discussion around them. It would be a pitfall that such individuals could have veto power in deciding their own label attributions in this way. Critical theory dictates minorities are the determiners of prejudice against their own groups, not those in power. Gwenhope (talk) 09:33, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
• option 2, option 5, option 1.1 is my order of preference. If it hasn't been said with option 2, it might be clearer to say 'journalist xyz in USA Today'... because a lot of these are op-eds.Fred (talk)
• Oppose options 1, 2, 4, see my comment in the threaded discussion, since TERF is a young term still subject to controversy, and such controversy spills on some mainstream venues too. Option 3 may make sense for the beginning of the lede, but of course it makes sense to discuss the topic later. Not so convinced about Option 5. --MarioGom (talk) 18:50, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

  Quoting Gwenhope above who best describes the situation.

  "Option 5 preferred, while Option 1.1 and Option 4 acceptable, but not ideal. Reason being first and foremost that regarding trans-exclusionary individuals often control the discussion around them. It would be a pitfall that such individuals could have veto power in deciding their own label attributions in this way. Critical theory dictates minorities are the determiners of prejudice against their own groups, not those in power

  Oldperson (talk) 19:39, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

  @Oldperson: are you replying to MarioGom or voting? Either way this formatting is odd. May I fix? Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 20:04, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

  Ah, with all the indentation I took this to be a reply but I can see how it might be a !vote. I have fixed it as a reply, feel free to fix as a !vote of course if it turns out that was the intent. Do keep in mind MOS:LISTGAP which may not allow all desired formatting and indentation levels. —DIYeditor (talk) 20:15, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

• Option 1 is my top choice for the lede and I think something like option 2 for the body (I'm not wedded to the specific examples, but listing examples of who considers these views transphobic seems pretty important). I don't mind option 1.1 too much, but it feels a bit weasely and it seems important that the ones who consider these views to be transphobic are other feminists, as they have a bit more authority than vague "others". Shoot, I wouldn't even mind a whole paragraph detailing specific examples of authoritative or relevant sources and their characterization of TERF views. I don't like any of the other options, though option 5 is the absolute worst IMHO. — Ƶ§œš¹ 03:18, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
• Option 3.1 is the only option I consider acceptable. The sources identified in the RfC statement (and I have no exposure to this term except those sources) are mixed, but the most consistent are those that say the term is self-defining, and I note that it is "trans-exclusionary", not "trans-opposed". While it may be transphobic to be a TERF, and transphobia may cause one to be a TERF, I believe the term is fundamentally just about excluding trans people from one's advocacy. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 16:11, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Threaded Discussion

My argument for my position has been made in detail above, but briefly: we ought to say the strongest thing the sources support, and the thing they support is quite strong. Our list of sources includes USAToday, the Independent, and the Daily Dot all directly calling TERFs "transphobic" in their news voice (or in other words, the article directly calling TERFs "transphobic" got through editorial oversight in all three cases). Describing this as merely "other feminists" is hugely reductive to the point of being very misleading. Loki (talk) 03:55, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Please provide the exact quote from these three publications where they call TERFs transphobic in news voice. Also, as I have pointed out, this is a cherry-picking of RS. "Other feminists" reads to me as plenty broad, while not making claims that are not directly supported. Thanks for making sure I saw the RfC, but I am watching the page. -Crossroads- (talk) 16:51, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

USAToday: TERF: The acronym for "trans exclusionary radical feminists," referring to feminists who are transphobic., on a page whose URL starts with usatoday.com/story/news.

Indy100: is a word leaden with meaning, and is a synonym for transphobia. The acronym refers to people who preach hate and exclusion against transgender women in the name of feminism., on a page whose URL starts with indy100.com/article.

Daily Dot: I'll give you that this one is less clear: their article about TERFs starts with a disclaimer that it addresses transphobic ideas, but in the actual body only says the word "transphobic" when it's attributed to their opponents. Regardless, the URL starts with dailydot.com/irl, which is definitely one of the Daily Dot's categories for articles. Loki (talk) 00:25, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

USA Today's article is a feminist glossary, so it is not in news voice. At most, you just have Indy100 so far in terms of news organizations. And as I have pointed out before, many other RS including news organizations do not agree. -Crossroads- (talk) 22:37, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

USA Today's article is a feminist glossary, but it's in their article space and is written by a journalist. I agree some other news organizations avoid the term but in my view the weight of the existing sources is still enough to support something stronger than simply "other feminists consider". Loki (talk) 01:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Question (especially for User:DanielRigal and User:Equivamp): There seems to be a decent amount of split support between options 1 and 4. Previously, I tried out the wording feminists who espouse sentiments that are widely considered transphobic but the talk page rejected it. It seems, however, like it might be a popular option in this RfC, so, would people be in favor of me adding it as an option? Loki (talk) 00:33, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

other feminists is better than others, to me. More specific and relevant. --Equivamp - talk 13:18, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Whether or not I support it as an option I think it is a legitimate option to discuss. To me it falls into the "acceptable" category although I do not see it as preferable to option 1 (due to its greater vagueness, which could leave the door open to ongoing attempts to "clarify" it in line with people's personal views) and I still favour the directness and clarity of Option 4. --DanielRigal (talk) 20:14, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Could you explain how Option 4 is allowed under WP:WIKIVOICE and WP:LABEL, as highlighted above? -Crossroads- (talk) 22:29, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

As I have said above, I see "trans exclusionary" and "transphobic" as synonyms as a simple matter of language but also that we have sufficient references to cover it for anybody who doesn't agree with me on that. We don't have a problem with the White supremacy article describing it as "racist" in the opening sentence and I fail to see any similar problem here. I fear that the other options can come across as a bit weaselly to varying degrees. --DanielRigal (talk) 22:49, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm having quite a bit of trouble parsing what I see "trans exclusionary" and "transphobic" as synonyms as a simple matter of language could possibly even mean. Can you please clarify this for us? — Ƶ§œš¹ 23:25, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

The assertion as I read it is that "trans-exclusionary" means "transphobic" (or at least, is basically equivalent in the same way a "white supremacist" is automatically a "racist".) Loki (talk) 01:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I can confirm that this was indeed what I was saying. I wasn't aware that I said it in an ambiguous way but I am glad to have it cleared up so that everybody understands. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:28, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

I still don't understand "as a simple matter of language" part. — Ƶ§œš¹ 19:46, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Don't worry about it. So long as you understand the word "synonym" then you can understand my point pretty well by just ignoring that bit. --DanielRigal (talk) 21:35, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

I see. Well, then, I'd have to disagree that the two are synonyms. There are other ways of being transphobic than being trans-exclusionary, even if that's the main one. Even if they were synonyms, different words with the same denotation can have different connotations. — Ƶ§œš¹ 22:21, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

OK, so "trans exclusive" is a more specific subset of the more general class of being transphobic and it is an oversimplification for me to call it a synonym? Actually, yes, I can accept that idea. As you say, there definitely are transphobes who are not TERFs, or even pretend to be. This coincides quite nicely with the parallel case of white nationalism and racism, where white nationalism is a specific subset of racism but not all racism is white nationalism. This view still supports my core assertion that "trans exclusive" is, by definition, transphobic and hence that Option 4 provides the simplest correct statement of the matter. It just prevents it working in the other direction to support an incorrect claim that all transphobes are TERFs, but that was never part of my argument, so no problems there. Glad to have got this clarified. --DanielRigal (talk) 23:08, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

For all the "Option 1.1" voters: we don't have the sources that, besides feminists, the people labeled TERFs are typically considered transphobic. It's mainly just feminists and trans activists (which pretty much all identify as feminists). Just stating "others" is far too vague and implies that everyone besides accused TERFs thinks they are transphobic, which is false. -Crossroads- (talk) 22:11, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

• It seems like WP:LABEL pretty clearly governs this type of situation. As a term, transphobic is "best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." So if we include it, it requires in-text attribution to someone. I'd caution against text that makes it seem like TERFs are the only people who think that TERFs are not transphobic. Attribution to the effect of "everyone in the world thinks that XYZ people are bad, except for XYZ people" defeats the purpose of WP:LABEL. May His Shadow Fall Upon You 22:32, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

It's my opinion that "everyone in the world thinks that XYZ people are bad, except for XYZ people" is totally acceptable in a case where it's possible to source that everyone or nearly everyone who is not XYZ thinks XYZ people are bad. Regardless, that's not the situation we have here: we instead have the much more frustrating situation where we can definitely source that many/most of the people who have written about TERFs but are not themselves TERFs think TERFs are transphobic, but we can't source that any particular number of people does. Loki (talk) 01:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Except that it is not the case that many/most of the people who have written about TERFs but are not themselves TERFs think TERFs are transphobic. See The Economist, these seven women philosophers, the New Statesman, Inside Higher Ed, and Slate, just for starters. Your statement is inaccurate and you should revise it. -Crossroads- (talk) 17:23, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Several of the people you linked describe themselves as "gender critical", including several of the anti-trans Economist writers and the philosophers on the open letter. (So, for example, here's a Medium piece written by Kathleen Stock, who wrote some of the pieces in the Economist, and several of the philosophers in the open letter in which they describe themselves as "gender critical and radical feminist academic philosophers".) Or in other words, I think you've mostly just given even more evidence of what I said. Loki (talk) 23:59, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Not at all. If we set the philosophers to the side, you still have Slate, Inside Higher Ed, New Statesman, and, yes, The Economist, which said in its own voice that TERF is a slur and is used to silence debate. And that is without looking for new sources. So it is still false that many/most of the people who have written about TERFs but are not themselves TERFs think TERFs are transphobic. -Crossroads- (talk) 05:47, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

TERF's in their own words, from what I have read so far, espouse a belief, about transgendered women (i.e. male to female)that is hurtful and harmful to some.Some being those who might care about the opinions of TERF's, or maybe some who might seek admiittance to womyn only events like the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival. But the TERF ideology/sentiment bleeds over to female to male transgendered. If TERF's reject transwomyn, do they then accept transmen? Can a transman, having personally experienced womanhood, not be a feminist in the eye of a TERF, since they believe that men can't be feminists? Perhaps this isn't the place, since WP is all about(supposedly) a NPOV and a voice, but sometimes the situation demands inquisition, exposition, questioning and nuance to get at the heart of these problematic terms, and TERF is only one such in WP and the world. Personally I object to words ending in phobic, unless they refer to conditions that involve real fear,like agoraphobic, arachnaphobic because not all bias and prejudice stems from fear, but I also understand that the limits of our vocabulary sources resulted in the invention of such terms to convey social disapproval of a persons actions, and inputed or derived beliefs. Oldperson (talk) 07:10, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Just wanted to put this here: as of literally today, Vox has an article out that calls TERFs/gender critical feminists "transphobic". (It's also a really comprehensive source for both this article and feminist views on transgender topics, so, good job Vox.) Loki (talk) 16:37, 5 September 2019 (UTC) LokiTheLiar

Great article. Thanks.Oldperson (talk) 17:01, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Interesting article but "This unholy alliance" - does that sound like a factual description? It reads as an opinion piece by a trans advocate rather than someone summarizing scholarly literature. —DIYeditor (talk) 20:11, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

I think it's basically subject to the same caveat we have for Vox over at WP:RSP: Vox is considered generally reliable. It is often considered a partisan source, particularly regarding American politics. It's reasonably clear that the author of the article did journalistic due diligence including contacting WoLF for a statement. It's also reasonably clear that the author is taking a side in this dispute. That being said, being WP:BIASED does not mean we can't use a source, especially a source that's otherwise quite comprehensive. Loki (talk) 20:29, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Someone else read the same Vox article and wrote about it and the writer. Pyxis Solitary yak 08:15, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

The survey question states that User:Darryl Kerrigan proposed Option 1.1:  "feminists who espouse sentiments that others consider transphobic."
I proposed another option in my response to this survey (4 September 2019):  feminists who espouse sentiments considered transphobic by transgender advocates.
As with Kerrigan's option, there's no reason this description cannot be proposed as Option 1.2 or Option 5. Pyxis Solitary yak 23:24, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

I added that because other people supported it without me adding it. That being said, if you really wanna I can add an option 5. Loki (talk) 23:43, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

As I said: there's no reason this description cannot be proposed as Option 1.2 or Option 5. So ... yes. Pyxis Solitary yak 01:15, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for adding Option 5. You forgot to indicate after the original timestamp that the RfC was modified on 23:44, 5 September 2019 (WP:REDACT, WP:RFCQ). Pyxis Solitary yak 04:17, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

• Sorry, I have just realized that my recent edit () touched a section that was subject to this RFC. If someone thinks it affects the course of the RFC, feel free to revert it. --MarioGom (talk) 16:32, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

• Already reverted. The problem I see with the current version is that it implies that the considering TERF as a slur is completely fringe, but it is a matter of wide debate even in some mainstream media. --MarioGom (talk) 17:08, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

MarioGom, it might be good to vote in the survey. Otherwise your opinion here will likely be overlooked at closing. -Crossroads- (talk) 13:16, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Transmisogyny

In the discussions so far, I'm surprised that the term transmisogyny hasn't come up. Because in fact, when the term transphobia is used as a way to characterize the attitude of some radical feminists (whether rightly, or wrongly), what is almost always meant here, is transmisogyny instead. Sometimes the conflation in terms is intentional, and done by some exclusionary radical feminists who are transmisogynist, precisely in order to point out how they are not transphobic: namely, they accept trans men in their spaces, ergo, not transphobic. (I don't have a source or diff at hand, but this is well attested, and I will get links if needed.) But this is sophistry. This "not transphobic" argument is completely bogus and disingenuous on their part, but can only be properly understood in analyzing what they mean when they say "not transphobic". (Spoiler: they mean, "not always transphobic, because I don't exclude trans men".)

The confusion arises, because in the original coinage of the term, Viv created "trans-exclusionary radical feminists". What this really meant, was "trans women exclusionary" but her version sounded better and was shorter, and when she coined it, there was no reason in the world to choose a longer name that no one expected would gain somewhat wide currency, and that was even more of a jawbreaker. This came up primarily in connection with Michfest, Camp Trans, and all that; everybody knew what was meant. Radical feminists, especially radical lesbian feminists, may not be too happy with trans men all the time ("traitors", and all, dontcha know...), but to many of them, possibly most, trans men are womyn-born-<womyn-or-something>s, so somewhat or wholly acceptable in radical lesbian spaces (at least, the gynephilic trans men). After all, if you're essentialist, once a womon-born-womon, always a womon-born-womon. If one hews to a very strict definition of "transphobic", then if someone isn't phobic to 50% of a category (the half of transgender individuals who are trans men), then one has a tough time making a general "transphobic" label stick. At least, that's their hope. Their claim is, I'm not transmisandrist, ergo, I'm not transphobic. It's their, Get-Out-Of-Transphobia-Jail-Free card.

In my opinion, this conflation of terms and differing interpretations of the same term, are at the root of some (not all) of the disagreements above, and hasn't been factored in at all. The argument of those who reject the term transphobia for their beliefs or behavior, fails wrt transmisogyny, imho; at least in most cases. Whether or not it fails in every case, is at the heart of some of the other disagreements above; but that's a separate issue. Mathglot (talk) 23:08, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm not 100% clear on the specific differences of the terminology but I think this may be another one of those subset thingies. If transmisogyny is a specific rejection of trans women, and transphobia is a general rejection of all trans people, then transmisogyny would be a subset of transphobia. After all, to go back to the parallels with racism, we call somebody racist if they discriminate against or denigrate any ethnic group(s). They don't have to hold a grudge against all, or even a majority of, ethnic groups other than their own to qualify. There is no 50% threshold here. Take the example of an anti-Semite who is not obviously racist against black or Asian people. Such a person is seemingly not racist against the vast majority of the non-white population but would anybody seriously argue that they are not a racist? I doubt it. A racist is anybody who does any racism and a transphobe is anybody who does any transphobia. This doesn't seem to steer us away from using the word "transphobic" at all. More to the point that is the word the references seem to use.

Obviously, the differences in the TERF positions on trans men and trans women can, and should, be covered in the body of the article and if RS sources call some of it transmisogyny then we should follow the sources on that. (My personal view, as a cis man with no direct experience of this, is that the trans men have it at least as bad as the trans women under the TERF position, in theory although not in practice. Certainly, I think I'd rather be excluded from a clique than be invited in to it just so that that I could be misgendered, erased and generally abused.) --DanielRigal (talk) 00:35, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Daniel, pretty much all of your assumptions are on the mark, as is your analogy to racism. The point is, that there is a fake argument of "non-transphobic" being used by some, and as you point out, someone who is racist against one group, "is racist"; full stop. Your conclusion that it doesn't steer us away from "transphobic" if that's what the sources say, is also correct (that was the bit I left to "a separate issue"). The main point, was to call out the phony-baloney, "I'm not transphobic" argument, and where it came from, and what their reasoning is. This was an attempt to elucidate that. Perhaps it's too fine a point. Mathglot (talk) 01:45, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Okay. Then what does misogyny by trans women fall under? Because trans women who advocate violence against women they consider TERFs (such as the Degenderettes, for example) is identical to the misogyny of males who inflict or want to inflict violence towards women. Pyxis Solitary yak 01:43, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

@Pyxis Solitary:, that would be a type of self-hatred, but if a trans woman discriminated against or hated women as a class, then that would simply be misogyny, and if the discrimination was against trans women specifically, then they would be transphobic. I don't think there's a term for someone who discriminates against women they consider Terfs, or if there is, I haven't heard it. MisoTerfist? Mathglot (talk) 01:49, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

To my knowledge, "TERFs" have not proposed violence against trans women or made death threats against them. The same cannot be said of all of those who disagree with them. There's obviously a new term awaiting creation for trans women who hate trans-exclusionary radical feminists to the point of brutality. Pyxis Solitary yak 02:05, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Ah, this is the "TRA" conspiracy theory is it not? That isn't a thing and it isn't going in the article for that reason. --DanielRigal (talk) 03:07, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

What is "the "TRA" conspiracy theory"? Pyxis Solitary yak 06:55, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

It is a bit off-topic to dig into in any detail here, but basically it is the claim (either advanced sincerely or otherwise) that there exists a "large and well funded trans lobby" which exercises great power in nefarious ways for nefarious purposes. When those purposes are specified they tend to be framed in the terms of a "they are corrupting our youth" narrative. The basis of the alleged "power" is never explained clearly but a vague conspiracy is either claimed or alluded to. This seeks to blame many of the usual targets of far-right conspiracy jibber-jabber, normally dressing it up to sound a bit less obviously far-right to a more progressive audience. This conspiracy theory exists in an attempt to flip the narrative and enable the oppressor to pretend (and maybe even convince themselves) that they are the oppressed and to blame the real victims for that claimed (and maybe even perceived) oppression while ignoring/erasing their real status as victims. If that sounds directly parallel to the Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy theory of the Nazis, and the nonsense of anybody who bangs on about the "homosexual agenda", then you get the general shape of the idea and what it is intended to achieve.

Bringing it back on topic for Misplaced Pages, this explains why attributing anything to a monolith of "trans rights activists" without being clear about (and providing references for) who we are talking about is unacceptable. Whether intentional or not, doing so has the subtle effect of introducing the language of this baseless conspiracy theory into Misplaced Pages and has the effect of lending it credibility. Our article on the Nazi Party does not say that "they struggled against the power of the Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy" because there never was any such thing and we don't give credence to such propaganda. Similarly we can't throw the phrase "trans rights activists" around here in a general/monolithic sense and certainly not simply to mean anybody who opposes transphobia.

More generally, we need to take a little care with the word "activist" in any context, on any article, as it can be weaponised in bad faith against anybody who disagrees with something whether they are actually an activist or not. --DanielRigal (talk) 12:05, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

There may not be "a "large and well funded trans lobby"" ... but there are trans activists on the other side of the seesaw. Pyxis Solitary yak 08:02, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Pyxis solitary: trans-exclusionary feminists do not have to advocate violence against trans people, as they have their cultural conservative allies who would not hesitate to do that for them. Also, your equation of some trans women ("Degenderettes") allegedly advocating violence against some cis women ("TERFs") as "identical to" the misogyny of male-gendered people against women seems both inaccurate and deliberately offensive.

A more accurate parallel would be women of one racial or cultural group who have advocated violence against women of another cultural group whose gendered norms they do not accept or respect (such as mainstream western women advocating violence against Hijabi women, for example: the category is discouragingly easy to populate. Newimpartial (talk) 13:06, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

"trans-exclusionary feminists do not have to advocate violence against trans people, as they have their cultural conservative who would not hesitate to do that for them". What conservatives latch onto and what they may or may not do is irrelevant. The only relevant fact here is whether those being tagged as "trans-exclusionary radical feminists/TERFs" espouse/promote/support violence against transgender women. Pyxis Solitary yak 08:02, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

However, that definition of "relevance" does not include your comment here that equated trans activist violence against TERFs with misogynist violence against women. If you agree that your earlier comment is irrelevant, then we are all good. :) Newimpartial (talk) 18:32, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Feminists do not advocate violence against women, even trans women. Many anti-TERFs advocate violence against TERFs. So as much as you would like to compare apples with oranges, the fact remains: trans-exclusionary "feminists" do not preach violence against trans people. And adding conservatives into the mix remains irrelevant. Pyxis Solitary yak 23:45, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Utter nonsense, provide proof of both of your assertions, Here is an article that refutes your claim. TERFS beat Radfem for protecting transwoman against their assult https://www.transadvocate.com/that-time-terfs-beat-radfems-for-protecting-a-trans-woman-from-assault_n_14382.htmOldperson (talk) 23:59, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Um. Are you aware that the term "TERF" did not exist in the 1970s? Cristan Williams uses the term TERF (of course) and the 1973 WCLC Robin-Tyler-to-the-rescue story is mirrored numerous times on the web. The Gorgons was a Seattle lesbian separatist collective (relocated to Berkeley in 1978), and if it's true that they made threats of violence against Sandy Stone it was the antithesis of feminism. Pyxis Solitary yak 05:06, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Despite the attempts on the part of editors to sound professional and neutral. There is no neutral ground on subjects such as transgender, TERF, racism, religion, politics. (I can make an exception, in some isnstances for politics though). An editors bias, pro or con,is evident from their comments. A person is either accepting or rejecting. Those that accept are philic (coining a word?), those that reject are, for the lack of a better word, phobic. The phobics are obviously very adept at using the policies and guidance of WP to present a persona/position that is academic or neutral. But no one is fooled. The emperor is naked is a quite appropriate analogy, and so is a stuck pig squealsOldperson (talk) 11:06, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

It is difficult but not impossible to write objectively about something that one has strong opinions on. Pretty much any article on politics or religion is going to hit issues like this. It is not easy, but so long as everybody participates in good faith, trying to be as objective as they can while recognising that it is impossible to be truly objective, then we can write good, neutral articles together.

One specific difficulty we have on this article is that TERF is two different things which look pretty much the same from a distance. It is a view emerging from radical feminism that a small minority of feminists genuinely subscribe to. It is also a pose co-opted and insincerely adopted by the far-right as tool to try to split the LGBTQ community and sow discord among the people they regard as "degenerate", which is pretty much everybody except themselves. Our best approach is to be as objective as we can, to assume good faith if somebody disagrees with us, to be willing to rethink when we genuinely make a mistake, but also to be on the look out for bad faith attempts to deliberately derail our efforts. --DanielRigal (talk) 13:53, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

^^^This. Mathglot (talk) 17:43, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Many posts here supporting the terf position lack understanding of a key factor. That is the separation of violence and prejudice. A lot of violence does originate from prejudice, but it takes an extra step to translate that to violence, whether direct or structural/systemic. The fact remains that they seem to lack the understanding of the root of prejudice. They argue from the position that trans women inherently have prejudice toward cis women. Trans individuals do dislike anti-trans people and groups thereof (such as terfs). The reason they dislike them isn't because of prejudice.

If a trans woman detests a group that expresses transmisogyny, this is not because of the demographics of that group. She don't hate the prejudicial group inherently, she hates being mistreated for her demographic, which the prejudicial group does. Most groups (such as terfs) that express prejudice develop it from some kind of visceral disgust and/or philosophical incompatibility. This can be seen in the root of many prejudicial categories - sexism, racism, ethnocentrism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, etc.

However they are arguing from the starting position that equivocates anyone assigned male, whether a cis man or a trans woman. This position inherently hurts their own arguments, because it specifically equates the prejudicial sexism of cis men (a common misogynistic basis) to the reactive disdain of trans women (not based in misogyny). Furthermore, this position ignores that the transmisogynist inherently endorses structural violence against trans women using the exact same arguments and language that the cis male misogynists and white supremacists have used to attempt to rationalize their sexism and racism for centuries.Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 12:18, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

This isn't a WP:FORUM to discuss the topic of transsexualism, or your rather convoluted theories of violence and prejudice. I would say that you have made a false equivalency between affirming that women are cis women (or affirming/validating womanhood) and negating the validity of minority groups (racism) or women (misogyny), they are not precisely analogous situations. A more analogous situation would be denying that Rachel Dolezal is black. Each topic needs to be treated in light of WP:LABEL on its own and in context. If there are an overwhelming number of scholarly sources that label trans-exclusionism as transphobic (or "hateful" as the article read at one point) that is fine, let's see the citations. —DIYeditor (talk) 12:49, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

@Gwenhope: DIYeditor chastises Gwenhope, telling her that this is not a forum to discuss the topic of transsexualism and then goes on to do exactly that, espousing their own views.Oldperson (talk) 14:43, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

@DIYeditor: WP:FORUM, for example specifically says that articles aren't forums, but talk pages (such as this) are discussion forums if relevant to the article they stem from. Also in light of WP:LABEL, wording was carefully-chosen to avoid just saying "transphobe!" Regardless, I agree with @Oldperson: that the points expressed seem self-contradictory. WP:WEIGHT would say we don't give undue weight to minority views, like those this article categorizes. Given the official positions of many major medical organizations regarding trans individuals, thus the terf position is likely WP:FRINGE. Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 18:34, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Also, I don't know what DIYeditor actually meant by their Rachel Dolezal reference, but if it represents a comparison between transgender and "transracial" identities it is not only a red herring but probably a violation of GENDERID as well. Newimpartial (talk) 18:43, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

• MarioGom (replying here for formatting): Klan members (and white supremacists in general) very rarely describe themselves as "white supremacists". They generally prefer "white nationalist", "race realist" or some other euphemism. "Dictator" probably falls in to a similar camp. I agree that they aren't direct analogues, but having negative connotations is not reason for exclusion. Nblund 14:00, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

• Nblund It is not a reason for exclusion, I agree. My point is that, while the three examples fall into quite different categories, they are well-established in reliable sources for a long time and that allows us to apply some verifiability and neutrality criteria. --MarioGom (talk) 14:21, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Feminist Current / Meghan Murphy in opposing views

Meghan Murphy from Feminist Current could be covered explicitly in the opposing views section. She is very prolific in the topic and that was covered/cited in opinion pieces and news pieces. What do you think? --MarioGom (talk) 17:04, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

MarioGom Oh you asked about Megahn Murphy. I think that she has plenty of coverage already, in fact you might say that this whole TERF article is about her movement. Therefore we don't need any discussion about her and her opinions.Oldperson (talk) 18:01, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

"you might say that this whole TERF article is about her movement. Therefore we don't need any discussion about her and her opinions." Does that make sense to you? —DIYeditor (talk) 05:39, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

References

1. Murphy, Meghan (21 September 2017). "'TERF' isn't just a slur, it's hate speech". Feminist Current. Retrieved 8 September 2019.
2. Bindel, Julie (9 October 2015). "No platform: my exclusion proves this is an anti-feminist crusade". The Guardian. Retrieved 8 September 2019.
3. Compton, Julie (2019-01-14). "'Pro-lesbian' or 'trans-exclusionary'? Old animosities boil into public view". NBC News. Retrieved 2019-03-19.

Lead section

I have partially reverted Gwenhope's contribution (which reverted my edits) by adding a citation back to the lead section. Lmatt (talk) 19:47, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

@Lmatt: Good citing is always acceptable! Sorry if reverting you came off as harsh. It's best not to delete the controversy on controversial articles. If you haven't weighed in above in the RFC discussion, more is always better! Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 20:10, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

The Instability of Slurs citation

My recent contribution removed the following material as it appears to reference a fringe source a self-published source:

Linguists Christopher David and Elin McCready, writing in a 2018 paper for the University of the Ryukyus and Aoyama Gakuin University, argued that three properties make a term a slur: it must be derogatory towards a particular group, it must be used to subordinate them within some structure of power relations, and the derogated group must be defined by an intrinsic property. David and McCready wrote that the term TERF satisfies the first condition, fails the third condition, and that the second condition is contentious, in that it depends on how each group sees itself in relation to the other group.

References

1. Davis, Christopher; McCready, Elin (2018-11-19). "The Instability of Slurs" (PDF). Semantics Archive. Retrieved 2019-04-24. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)

Lmatt (talk) 12:50, 15 September 2019 (UTC); edited 15:40, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

The Instability of Slurs may be a fringe source is a self-published source because it has not been published in a peer-reviewed scholarly or scientific journal and therefore appears not to have been subject to formal peer review. The paper is available on semanticsarchive.net, a "repository of electronic preprints" which warns "not appropriate to cite a paper as appearing on the semantics archive". Lmatt (talk) 13:04, 15 September 2019 (UTC); edited Lmatt (talk) 15:42, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Good catch. It should not be used as a source. It also has no cites even on Google Scholar other than from one of the authors themselves. -Crossroads- (talk) 16:15, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

The two of you appear to be confused about terminology and to be applying inappropriate irrelevant) critetia in this case. In WP parlance, a FRINGE source is one "that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field". The article in question, while there is no evidence it was peer reviewed, certainly does not depart from mainstream views in its field. What is more, even though self-published the article meets the standard for a reliable source according to Misplaced Pages's criteria for self-published sources, as the authors are writing within a field of expertise (semantics) where they have a body of non-self published (and in this case peer-reviewed) work. Other criteria, such as MEDRS, do not in any way apply in this case. So try to adhere to policy rathet than WP:IDONTLIKEIT, ok? Newimpartial (talk) 17:25, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: I have edited my comments to clarify that the paper is a self-published source and not necessarily a fringe source. Lmatt (talk) 15:47, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

According to policy (WP:SPS), the conditions a self published expert source must meet to be suitable for inclusion could be summarized as follows:

• Are the authors established experts on the subject matter?
• Has their work in the relevant field previously been published by reliable, independent publications?
• Has the information in question been published in independent reliable source?

Lmatt (talk) 16:16, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

In order to determine whether this material is suitable for inclusion, we must first ask ourselves, which field of academic study is relevant on the subject of slurs? Lmatt (talk) 16:36, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Linguistics is the scientific study of language and it's structure and the subfield sociolinguistics is "the study of the effect of the society, including cultural norms, expectations, and context, on the way language is used." Lmatt (talk) 17:05, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Assuming sociolinguistics is the relevant field (I believe it is), the next question is: are the authors established experts, i.e. has their work in this field previously been published by reliable, independent publications? Lmatt (talk) 17:11, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Regarding the policy:

• The authors are established professionals in linguistics.
• McCready and Davis have previous works in linguistics and one covering slurs specifically (excluding this one).
• Semantics Archive, where it has been published currently, is mostly used to share drafts and internal papers between linguistic and language professionals. Semantics Archive is an independent platform.

The first two points are solid. The last one is the only one being truly debated. It asks if more if the source is primary, secondary, or tertiary. The paper is a largely a secondary source. Citing it here in Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source. One key factor we also need to look at regarding this is that many sources cited in this article are equivalent to this one. (There are citations which just link to figures' personal webpages, for example.)

Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 17:04, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

In response to your points:

• In the links you've given, McCready' papers are labelled as: "Semantics, pragmatics, philosophy of language, social meaning, languages of Asia", Davis' papers are tagged as: "Linguistics, Formal Semantics, Formal Pragmatics, Ryukyuan, Japanese". Linguistics is a wide and multidisciplinary field of study, we must consider whether the authors are established experts on the subject matter, which is the subject of slurs. The relevant field on the subject of slurs appears to be sociolinguistics.
• The authors do not appear to have previous work on the subject of slurs in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal. Davis' manuscript Slurs are Invocations is noted McCready's website as "in preparation".
• Semantics Archive is an independent platform, a preprint archive, so as @Newimpartial: commented, should be considered "according to Misplaced Pages's criteria for self-published sources".

Lmatt (talk) 18:18, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Yeah that's now how things work. You're hyper-focusing on slurs and thinking that the experts need to be specific experts on slurs themselves, instead of their field. You also misunderstand the field. Language itself is a social construct. Nearly all discussion of language, even the most reserved, syntax and grammar-focused study will always involve sociolinguistics. Regardless, a known, competent, and professional linguist doesn't need to a hyper-specific expert in sociolinguistic analysis of slurs for their viewpoint to merit inclusion. (Also, you just echoed me on the third point.) Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 18:33, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

@Gwenhope: I'm focusing on slurs because that is the subject matter. The Misplaced Pages policy on verifiability states that self-published material is not generally acceptable as a source. In order to be considered reliable, a self-published source must be produced by an established expert on the subject matter. To decide whether a source is produced by established expert, we must look to see whether their previous work in the relevant field has been published by multiple reliable, independent publications. As linguistics is such a wide field of study (see Template:Linguistics § Subfields) we must narrow the relevant field. I have assumed sociolinguistics is the relevant field but I'm open to a discussion on this. On your, last point I believe we are in agreement, we must consider this paper against the criteria for self-published sources. Lmatt (talk) 19:20, 19 September 2019 (UTC); edited Lmatt (talk) 19:23, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

It is definitely not the case that Nearly all discussion of language, even the most reserved, syntax and grammar-focused study will always involve sociolinguistics. Experts who focus on syntax focus on word order outside of social context. Experts who focus on phonetics or phonology focus on the sounds of language separate from social context. You can't divorce language from its social context in the everyday arena, but you can (and often should) do so in academic and scholarly studies of language outside of sociolinguistic studies. — Ƶ§œš¹ 19:50, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Gwenhope Until this talk page I never heard of Rachel Mackinnon A quick trip to youtube netted this enlightening discussion It appears that it was TERF's that actually invented the acronym so it cannot be a slur Oldperson (talk) 21:39, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Oldperson, it can be a slur, regardless who invented it. Namely, in an example of a sort of linguistic Gresham’s law of language change, where a bad meaning drives out the good and a formerly neutral term becomes a dysphemism. Such was the case with terf (originally neutral). Mathglot (talk) 02:23, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

MathglotI understand that. It is all about perception; whose ox is being gored, and who holds the reins.Not wishing to be argumentative (unnecessarily so), I can,given time and inclination,come up with legions of neutral terms that become a dysphemism. But the question here is who wields the power to do harm and who is the recipient of harm. In the case at hand the TERF has the power to do harm,by exercising their rights of exclusion,though in my minds eye I question why a transwoman would seek to place herself in a situation where she is not wanted and will be met with hostility..but that is me. In a sense the question is epistemological, which is who cast the first stone. How should the recipient of TERF animosity respond? Quietude acceptance? Queer is a neutral term, when directed by "straights" towards "gays" it is a slur, but when used by gays within their community, it is either considered humorous, neutral or endearing. Straights have no right to use the term in reference to gay, in the same way that whites do not have the right to use the "N" word, but blacks do have that right. Also the use of slurs, internally by a group, have the benefit of taking ownership of the word, desensitizing the community to its harmful effects. But Ifear I stray far afield.Oldperson (talk) 02:58, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

References

References

1. Definition of Linguistics by Lexico
2. Current LINGUIST Subfields
3. "Christopher Davis - Google Scholar Citations". scholar.google.com. Retrieved 2019-09-19.
4. "Elin McCready - Google Scholar Citations". scholar.google.com. Retrieved 2019-09-19.

Coinage and usage

My recent contribution removed the following material as it appears to have been given WP:UNDUE weight.

Writing for The TransAdvocate, Cristan Williams argued that the term references "a brand of 'radical feminism' that is so rooted in sex essentialism and its resulting biologism, it actively campaigns against the existence, equality, and/or inclusion of trans people."

References

1. Williams, Cristan (2013-09-24). "You might be a TERF if ..." The TransAdvocate.
2. Dalbey, Alex (2018-08-12). "TERF wars: Why trans-exclusionary radical feminists have no place in feminism". The Daily Dot. Retrieved 2019-01-27.

Lmatt (talk) 14:56, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

This is not WP:UNDUE. Many of the sources cited in the "opposition" section have similar citation reliability levels. Repressing this actually promotes WP:FALSEBALANCE because TERF ideology itself is already a specific (possibly minority) view. Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 16:33, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Williams' commentaries on the term are cited by other reliable sources like Vox and Daily Dot - so I have a hard time seeing why this wouldn't be a notable perspective here. Nblund 17:36, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Unless this has already been repeated word-for-word or in a very similar likeness in the article already, then why not?--Trans-Neptunian object (talk) 18:16, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

• The first piece is You might be a TERF if… published on The TransAdvocate. It is unclear whether The TransAdvocate can be considered a reliable source as there is no evidence that the site has a reputation for fact-checking and editorial oversight. As well being the writer of the piece Williams is also the editor of the site, in fact her biography describes herself as "editor at the social justice sites TransAdvocate.com and TheTERFs.com". While William's has published work in the peer-reviewed academic journal Transgender Studies Quarterly, Williams' piece is not scholarly work and is instead written as "a quick guide to help you figure out if you’re someone who pushes TERF ideology".
• The second piece is published on The Daily Dot. The consensus on this source is The Daily Dot is considered generally reliable for Internet culture. Consider whether content from this publication constitutes due weight before citing it in an article. It is unclear whether the Daily Dot is reliable on the subject of radical feminism. Lmatt (talk) 19:08, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

The viewpoint is attributed to Williams in-text. It isn't stated as a fact, so the reliability of Trans Advocate isn't really the issue. You raised an issue of WP:DUE weight, but her views on this subject are frequently cited by high-quality reliable sources (here's another example), which is a good indicator that they warrant inclusion here. Nblund 19:28, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

In regard to Wiliams' opinions, there doesn't appear to be any evidence she is frequently cited by reliable sources. The book you gave as an example, Routledge Handbook of Contemporary Feminism is a self-published source so we cannot simply assume it is a "high quality reliable source" without considering it against Misplaced Pages's policy on self-published sources. Lmatt (talk) 20:54, 19 September 2019 (UTC); deleted Lmatt (talk) 21:58, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

You think that a chapter in an edited volume from a respected academic press is a self published source? Nblund 21:38, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Possibly not strictly a self-published source, but not a highly cited one Lmatt (talk) 21:58, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Since when has "highly cited" become a criteria for RS or anything? WP:WEASEL Oldperson (talk) 23:22, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has an activism problem

Description of Cristan Williams and Smythe's role in coining the term "TERF"

I don't believe either of the edits below were improvements:

1. This edit describes TransAdvocate as Cristan Williams' "transgender rights website". Williams is the editor-in-chief for the site, but saying it is "her website" seems a bit like calling the New York Times "Dean Baquet's news website" (okay, slight exaggeration). The previous wording still gave proper attribution. I'm not necessarily opposed to noting the site's editorial stance, but I suspect that readers can gather that the site is pro-trans based on the name "Trans Advocate"
2. this edit: the wording here seems like it implies that Smythe took credit for creating the term in her 2008 blog post. But that's not what she did. The previous wording did a better job of communicating what Smythe actually says: she probably didn't coin it, but she may have been one of the first to use it in a public post.

I'm open to re-wording if someone has an objection to either of these, but I'm inclined to simply revert both of these to their previous wordings.Nblund 18:32, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Terminology

At several points the article uses the terms "trans people" or "trans men' when a much more apt choice of words would be "trans advocates" or something similar to avoid excluding allies. Orchastrattor (talk) 19:53, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

We can't change make changes willy-nilly; it has to correspond to what reliable sources say. That said, if you can give examples from the text that you think are inaccurate in that they don't correspond to the sources, please do, and they can be discussed. Mathglot (talk) 20:32, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

McKinnon again

I reverted this edit adding the words "Transgender rights activist" as an introduction to language professor Rachel McKinnon. This has nothing to do with McKinnon's credentials, and is a POV attempt to characterize her for who she is and thereby presumably discredit her views, rather than describe her by her actual professional accomplishments or position. This is no more appropriate, than it would be to introduce Lipstadt at the Holocaust denial page, as: "Jewish rights advocate and Emory University professor Deborah Lipstadt has called Irving a holocaust denier." That would get you slapped down pretty quick. This is no different. Mathglot (talk) 20:47, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

McKinnon self-describes as both an academic and an activist on her personal website. Her activism in my opinion constitutes a distinct body of work, separate from her academic work on speech acts. The source for her view is a youtube post (with <8k views) from her video series "Trans 101": this seems clearly to me to be an instance of McKinnon's activism. Cheers, gnu57 20:58, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Be that as it may, the point is how *McKinnon" is characterized, not how the comment is characterized. One could, if one wished, attack the comment for the reasons you stated, and then it would probably fall under WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV in my opinion (already satisfied by the current wording) however that is a separate discussion (feel free to raise it). Other professionals and intellectuals are active about sociopolitical topics outside their main professional expertise as well, but they are normally introduced in a professional manner. For example: although Noam Chomsky has been highly active in topics such as Latin America, East Timor, Democracy, publishing, Palestine, racism, and other topics beyond his titular profession, he is typically introduced as a "linguist", "Professor", "Institute Professor at M.I.T.", " linguist, political philosopher" or in more than one of these in series. I'm not putting McKinnon on the same level, and yes, she has political and social opinions about which she writes, but she deserves the same neutral treatment as far as *who* she is, as Chomsky or any other professional. Feel free to attack her opinions as POV or whatever, but I don't think that applies to a neutral description of who she is. Also, she's alive, so WP:BLP applies. Mathglot (talk) 00:04, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

...is there something bad about calling a person an activist? gnu57 00:59, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

While I get what Mathglot is saying here, as the person who wrote this paragraph originally I agree with gnu that in this particular case, that she is both an activist and a professor is relevant. The context of this paragraph is listing trans activists that have problems with the term, so in that context that she's a trans activist is relevant. The source in that paragraph is not her academic work but a YouTube video she did as part of her activism.

That all being said, I swear there used to be a section on academic opinions on the term which seems to have been cut. That's a good place to put her academic work on the term as well as that other source I found that appears to also have been cut. Loki (talk) 01:34, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Update: it appears that section still exists but it was cut back significantly by Mathglot himself. The reason I had such a lot of info about a single source is that it was the single most reliable source on the page for settling the underlying question of whether TERF is a slur, seeing as it comes from neutral academics doing purely academic work. Loki (talk) 01:41, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Loki for mentioning Rachel Mackinnon's youtube. Until this talk page I never heard of Rachel (or Natalie Wynn for that matter (honestly). But I thank you, a quick trip to youtube netted this enlightening discussion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmDauuQOOdU. It appears that it was TERF's that actually invented the acronym so it cannot be a slur.Oldperson (talk) 03:23, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Further update: I think what Loki meant to say was, "that section still exists, because it was restored in this edit by Mathglot himself themself, after it had been entirely removed from the article by a different editor in this earlier edit. After restoring it, Mathglot then reduced the length a bit in this edit, inviting other editors to adjust it as needed." That's what they meant to say, I'm pretty sure. Mathglot (talk) 03:31, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

@Mathglot: I have reverted this edit. Could we move that discussion to § The Instability of Slurs citation. Lmatt (talk) 15:33, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

@Oldperson: regarding the edit you just made regarding this section, it both doesn't belong in that section. It should also be combined with Julia Serano who said similar words as well in the correct section. Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 02:19, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Gwenhope Thanks, moved check it out..Oldperson (talk) 02:39, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Regarding this: McKinnon (around minute 2:30 in the video) says that the term was coined by two trans-inclusive radical feminists. I don't necessarily have a problem with the source, but we already cover this in the coinage and usage section in the article. McKinnon does note the origin of the term, but I don't really think she makes that a core part of her argument about whether or not its a slur. Nblund 16:25, 20 September 2019 (UTC) Oldperson: at 3:30 in the video, McKinnon says: the term was coined by cisgender radical feminists who didn't want to be associated with these transphobic assholes. She doesn't say the term was coined by "TERFS" - that would conflict with what we say in the article. Nblund 16:32, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

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