Talk:Spider-Man: Far From Home: Difference between revisions

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	*'''Oppose''' to conform with both the official title and the bulk of reliable coverage, as per our title policy.--] ] 05:16, 16 October 2019 (UTC)		*'''Oppose''' to conform with both the official title and the bulk of reliable coverage, as per our title policy.--] ] 05:16, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
	::{{tq\|''the official title''}} But which one? {{tq\|''bulk of reliable coverage''}} Umm ... citation needed? ] (<small>]]</small>) 06:02, 16 October 2019 (UTC)		::{{tq\|''the official title''}} But which one? {{tq\|''bulk of reliable coverage''}} Umm ... citation needed? ] (<small>]]</small>) 06:02, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' per Trailblazer101. ] (]) 10:49, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

	===Discussion===		===Discussion===

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Discussions:

RM, Spider-Man: Far From Home → Spider-Man: Far from Home, No consensus, August 8, 2018
RM, Spider-Man: Far From Home → Spider-Man: Far from Home, No consensus, April 16, 2019.

Music - Marvel Studios Logo

"Like the first film, the score includes an instrumental version of the theme song from the 1960s animated Spider-Man series for the Marvel Studios opening logo."

It very much does not; the music playing over the Marvel Studios Logo is "I Will Always Love You" by Whitney Houston.

cite-parameters for the references

There seems to something wrong with the references. I myself have no idea what is wrong nor how to fix it. Could somebody who does maybe take a look at this? Cheers! SassyCollins (talk) 16:39, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

This is true for almost all Misplaced Pages articles now. I think the template code has been changed; apparently now the website parameter is compulsory for cite web, and dead-url is deprecated in favour of url-status. I think bots/volunteers will take care of it. DeluxeVegan (talk) 16:41, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

"Spider-Man: Homecoming 2" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Spider-Man: Homecoming 2. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Kailash29792 (talk) 04:35, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 15 October 2019

It has been proposed in this section that Spider-Man: Far From Home be renamed and moved to Spider-Man: Far from Home.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Spider-Man: Far From Home → Spider-Man: Far from Home – Poster stylization is generally not considered a good reason to capitalize or not (strictly speaking, the logo stylizes the title as SPIDER-MAN: Far From HomE or perhaps SPIDER-MAN: Far FrOm HOmE anyway), so Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (capitalization)#Titles of works should prevail. Secondary sources seem to be fairly split on whether to capitalize "from" in this case, with the review quotes on the first page of RottenTomatoes including examples like I like that "Far From Home" is trying, As a standalone movie, Far from Home is fine, Spider-Man: Far From Home is a visually incoherent, Spider-Man: Far from Home builds upon what's come before and so large that Far From Home is more, and even the aggregator's original prose (?) being split between Peter Parker returns in Spider-Man: Far From Home and Spider-Man: Far from Home stylishly sets the stage. This split is presumably due to confusion with some people following the film's logo and others following conventional writing style, and there is probably also a fair bit of "secondary" sources consciously or unconsciously mirroring the Misplaced Pages status quo. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:20, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this subsection with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Misplaced Pages's policy on article titles.

Neutral: While I would prefer to go by the official Marvel and Sony pages for the film, I'm not opposed to renaming if there are convincing reasons to do so. Starforce 22:52, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Support. If reliable sources are inconsistant then that seems like a very compelling reason to follow MOS:TITLECAPS. PC78 (talk) 18:05, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Oppose: This has been proposed countless times before and has been declined just as much. Since Marvel and Sony officially call it "Spider-Man: Far From Home", which is the same as used on its website and official marketing, that overrules whatever third-party online websites and critics use the title format, as those are their own and not supported by the official studios behind the film. Trailblazer101 (talk) 18:30, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Oppose. Mike210381 (talk) 18:42, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Support per MOS:TMCAPS, "When sources are mixed, follow the standard formatting and capitalisation used for proper names". The sources are mixed here, and proper name capitalisation is "from". Lazz _R 20:17, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Support: The Capital letters section of the Manual of Style mentions the word 'from' in two instances: first as an example for uncapitalized Prepositions containing four letters or fewer, and then after the potential exception, in which it still says to Continue to lower-case common four-letter (or shorter) prepositions like "into" and "from". In no place does the MoS state that 'from' is a common exception or that it should be. This is not a case like Star Trek Into Darkness where it was the start of a subtitle as well as a preposition, here it's just used as a preposition in the middle of a subtitle. As Hijiri88 correctly states in the proposal, there is no clear dominant in secondary reliable sources of any of the two options, so the common name argument is out of the question. In these cases, The MoS recommends going by the general rule, not by what a primary source such as Marvel's or Sony's official pages state. Hence, it shouldn't be capitalized. El Millo (talk) 20:33, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Oppose. This was already discussed here, in a previous discussion, and didn't find consensus. I don't think anything has changed since then. A substantial majority of sources title it "Far From Home" so, much like Bend It Like Beckham, k.d. lang etc, given that this isn't a close call, we should follow the sources. — Amakuru (talk) 21:25, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

@Amakuru: A substantial majority of sources title it "Far From Home" doesn't seem to be supported by the evidence, especially now that the film has been released and more reliable secondary sources are available. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:49, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Well, other than a few (but still a minority) of Rotten Tomatoes contributors downcasing it, I'm not sure what other evidence there is? I know we take this with a pinch of salt, but the trusty Google search shows what I would call a substantial majority using upper case. Ditto a book search. — Amakuru (talk) 10:14, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Oppose. Should follow the official naming conventions of the film. No compelling reasons to make such a change. Spanneraol (talk) 22:47, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Which official naming conventions? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:43, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

(on their actual websites, as opposed to the meta-data used for search engine previews) Spanneraol (talk) 23:44, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

The two studios have used multiple slightly different stylizations with regard to how to capitalize the words of the title. The final poster has several letters written as upper-case, but with the first letter of each word written larger so as to imply head-caps. Early posters did not do this. What's more, most of the time (on their actual websites, as opposed to the meta-data used for search engine previews) both studios seem to write the name of the film IN ALL-CAPS. As a result, reliable secondary sources are split on how to write the title. That you say (on their actual websites, as opposed to the meta-data used for search engine previews) as though the capitalization of the first letters of certain words constituted a change of name appears to indicate that you do not understand the problem: early (I think?) posters (appear to have?) used different capitalization, but this certainly does not mean the title of the film changed. Under these circumstances, we really should resort to our standard titling conventions. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:44, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Oppose. Nothing has changed since the last time this came up. Calidum 02:56, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

@Calidum: Last time you opposed per common name, do you still think Far From Home is the common name, even with the examples Hijiri 88 brought up in the proposal? El Millo (talk) 03:11, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

The film came out. That's a pretty substantial change. In April all we had were primary sources, and the best one we could use was the poster, but per my opening comment that's not very useful, especially when secondary sources are split. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:13, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

The sources in the article favor "From." This has always been the case. I should also point you to WP:BLUDGEON. Calidum 03:16, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

The sources in the article, with the exception of the "Reception" section (which you'll have to convince me favour "From" -- if they come from the first page of RT then they are probably split down the middle), are either primary sources or unreliable regurgitations of primary sources written by people who weren't sure if Mysterio was a villain (see here for an explanation of why such sources really shouldn't form the basis of this article in the long term). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:24, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Oppose to conform with both the official title and the bulk of reliable coverage, as per our title policy.--Yaksar (let's chat) 05:16, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

the official title But which one? bulk of reliable coverage Umm ... citation needed? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:02, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Oppose per Trailblazer101. Enjoyer of World (talk) 10:49, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Note: WP:PRIMARY sources - Disney/Marvel and Sony consistently use "Far From Home" in their websites, DVD covers and posters and therefore should take priority over third party sources. And if we use MOS:TMCAPS, the only time secondary/independent sources come to play is when the primary sources/owners are mixed or all lowercase. That's not the case here. So, there's no reason to ignore primary source and go with 3rd party.Starforce 20:46, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

MoS/Trademarks' "in a nutshell" states: Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, regardless of the preference of trademark owners. Starforce13, please cite the exact quote that you think means that primary sources take precedence over independent secondary sources and capitalization rules. El Millo (talk) 21:02, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

MOS:TMCAPS : "For trademarks that are given in mixed or non-capitalization by their owners (such as adidas), follow the formatting and capitalization used by independent reliable sources." - that clearly implies that independent sources don't necessarily matter as long as the first clause is not met. However, WP:MOSTM in a nutshell seems to give the most clear rule/guideline. So, that's strong enough to move me from "oppose" to "neutral." Starforce 21:13, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Then, please state it in the Survey section. El Millo (talk) 21:59, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Disney, Marvel, and Sony are not at all consistent on this. Earlier versions of the logo were much more ambiguous about the headcaps, and if we go by the pages themselves rather than the Gooogle previews Sony at least seem to prefer allcaps. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:41, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Do all votes count? If someone opposes but offers no arguments, does it count? If someone's arguments aren't supported by policies, do those count? El Millo (talk) 00:45, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

@Facu-el Millo: In theory, no. In practice, yes; if 90 people !vote one way but none of them have decent arguments, and 10 people the other way with reasoned, policy-based arguments, a good closer should close in favour of the latter, but in reality that will invariably lead to a review whereby most of the 90 people will again show up and request overturning, and most closers of those reviews should ignore such !votes, but in reality the red tape is too much of a hassle. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:47, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

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